0:00:05 > 0:00:07Hello and welcome to The Culture Show
0:00:07 > 0:00:09from Ealing Film Studios,
0:00:09 > 0:00:11the world's oldest working film lot.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14Tonight, we celebrate the films and filmmakers
0:00:14 > 0:00:19that have entertained, intrigued and confounded audiences in 2012.
0:00:19 > 0:00:23Coming up, Robert Pattinson impresses in Cosmopolis...
0:00:23 > 0:00:26William Friedkin talks twisted fairytales
0:00:26 > 0:00:28with his jet-black thriller Killer Joe...
0:00:30 > 0:00:33..Tasmanian tiger-tracking with Willem Dafoe in The Hunter...
0:00:33 > 0:00:37Gotham's caped crusader rides again in The Dark Knight Rises...
0:00:37 > 0:00:41and Ben Affleck proves fact is stranger than fiction
0:00:41 > 0:00:43with his blockbuster, Argo.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48But first, back in June, veteran helmer David Cronenberg
0:00:48 > 0:00:50offered his typically intelligent take
0:00:50 > 0:00:52on Don DeLillo's novel Cosmopolis,
0:00:52 > 0:00:57featuring a glacial performance from rising star Robert Pattinson.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59The director and his vampiric leading man
0:00:59 > 0:01:02joined me in an airtight stretch limousine
0:01:02 > 0:01:04to discuss their unashamedly alienating film.
0:01:07 > 0:01:12Once dubbed the cinema of extreme, David Cronenberg's films span
0:01:12 > 0:01:14the heartbreaking body horror of The Fly...
0:01:14 > 0:01:17You've got to get some help. I think you must be sick.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19You're jealous!
0:01:19 > 0:01:21..to the glacial chill of Crash...
0:01:21 > 0:01:23You bought yourself exactly the same car again.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29..each work exploring some of the most profound aspects
0:01:29 > 0:01:32of the human condition.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35Cronenberg's new film, Cosmopolis, is an intense psychosexual thriller
0:01:35 > 0:01:38from the post-modern novel by Don DeLillo.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40It follows Wall Street tycoon Eric Packer
0:01:40 > 0:01:43and his chauffeur-driven limo ride across town to get a haircut
0:01:43 > 0:01:46at his father's old barber.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49During the course of his journey, the world outside descends
0:01:49 > 0:01:50into financial and civil chaos,
0:01:50 > 0:01:54triggering the personal and professional disintegration
0:01:54 > 0:01:57of Packer, played by Twilight star Robert Pattinson.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59You know what the anarchists have always said.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02- Yes.- Tell me.
0:02:02 > 0:02:06The urge to destroy is a creative urge.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09As always with Cronenberg, subtext is super-text.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11The limo becomes Packer's exoskeleton,
0:02:11 > 0:02:16a capitalist carapace in which to exert his wealth, power and control.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20And whilst the casting of blockbuster front man Pattinson
0:02:20 > 0:02:24as the quasi-psychopathic playboy may be a surprising move,
0:02:24 > 0:02:27he delivers a magnetically credible performance.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31A report from the cops. It's a credible threat not to be dismissed,
0:02:31 > 0:02:34which means a ride across town is...
0:02:34 > 0:02:38We've had numerous threats, all credible. I'm still standing here.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41- Hello, welcome to The Culture Show. - Thank you very much.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45Thank you for having me... in your limousine. Very fancy!
0:02:45 > 0:02:49You said that you were worried about being overexposed and typecast.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51The interesting thing about this character
0:02:51 > 0:02:53is there is an element of vampirism about him.
0:02:53 > 0:02:57When I watch this, I think it's like a science fiction movie.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00- It is like a horror. It has all those elements in it.- Yeah.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02- It's like a ghost story.- OK.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06That's kind of what I thought about it. Everybody's dead in it.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08Everyone's dead. The whole world is dead.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11The vampire aspect of it, I don't think...
0:03:11 > 0:03:14He's not trying to take anything from the world.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16He's trying to create a new world,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18he's trying to create a new reality,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21which is the opposite of being a parasite.
0:03:23 > 0:03:25You look gorgeous today.
0:03:25 > 0:03:31For someone who's 41, and finally understands what her problem is.
0:03:31 > 0:03:32What's that?
0:03:33 > 0:03:34Life is..
0:03:36 > 0:03:38..too contemporary.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42The most difficult thing about watching the film
0:03:42 > 0:03:44is the silences between the words,
0:03:44 > 0:03:48because you're so used to hearing music or sound effects in those gaps.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51Yeah, and also the structure of the limo as well.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54When we were shooting it, especially the early scenes,
0:03:54 > 0:03:57you're trying to be confident and your voice sounds so dead.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00There's nothing, there's no reverberation.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03Everyone sounds like, you know, you're in shitty headphones.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Cronenberg's films make you feel uncomfortable.
0:04:06 > 0:04:11- They make you feel uneasy. It is the cinema of unease, isn't it?- Yeah.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13You have to be incredibly sympathetic to the movie,
0:04:13 > 0:04:15to a movie that's not sympathetic to you at all.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18Sure, absolutely. A movie that doesn't present you
0:04:18 > 0:04:22with a likeable character for most of the rolling time.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25There was a review of it which said it was aggressively unlovable,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28which I thought was like the perfect... It should be on the poster!
0:04:28 > 0:04:31But, like...
0:04:31 > 0:04:35I think it really is that. But I think that's so much better.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38It's not pandering to an audience. It's not trying to, you know...
0:04:38 > 0:04:41- it's respecting an audience. - Yeah, yeah.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44And so, I don't know, hopefully that works.
0:04:46 > 0:04:47Show me something I don't know.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49Robert, thank you very much.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51Thank you very much.
0:04:52 > 0:04:54- Hello, there.- Hello, David. Welcome to The Culture Show.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57Thank you, thank you.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00In terms of what the central character represents,
0:05:00 > 0:05:04when we were talking to Robert about it, he said he's not quite human,
0:05:04 > 0:05:07he's somebody who he described as a ghost.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09How would you describe Packer?
0:05:09 > 0:05:11Well, of course, that's Rob talking after the fact,
0:05:11 > 0:05:15because I think no actor really wants to play
0:05:15 > 0:05:17an abstract concept, you know.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21He doesn't want to... It's impossible to play yourself as the symbol
0:05:21 > 0:05:23of American capitalism, for example.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27An actor would freak out if you said, "You're playing this symbol,"
0:05:27 > 0:05:29because actors have to use their bodies,
0:05:29 > 0:05:32they have to use the reality of the other character,
0:05:32 > 0:05:33the reality of the dialogue.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37So I think he's a real person.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41You dealt previously with the idea of cars, both in Fast Company,
0:05:41 > 0:05:43and, most famously, Crash.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47Tell me about the philosophical idea of what the car means to you.
0:05:47 > 0:05:48I know you're a car enthusiast.
0:05:48 > 0:05:53I am a car enthusiast, but this movie is not a car enthusiast's movie,
0:05:53 > 0:05:56because the car isn't really even a car.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58Yeah, it's a spaceship.
0:05:58 > 0:05:59But it is a spaceship.
0:05:59 > 0:06:04It is also a prison, it's a coffin, it's a seat of power,
0:06:04 > 0:06:09and it makes this his limo spaceship but kind of a vacuum too.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12- There's no air in it.- Yeah.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15And he lives this sort of bubble life that begins to suffocate him
0:06:15 > 0:06:17and frustrate him
0:06:17 > 0:06:21to the point that he wants to escape from the life that he has created.
0:06:21 > 0:06:22Where's your car?
0:06:24 > 0:06:26We can't seem to find it.
0:06:27 > 0:06:31- David, thank you very much.- Thank you, thank you for the wild ride.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34One of the highlights of my year was interviewing director
0:06:34 > 0:06:38William Friedkin about his creepy southern noir, Killer Joe.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41As always, Friedkin, who called the shots on crime thrillers
0:06:41 > 0:06:43like The French Connection and Cruising,
0:06:43 > 0:06:47proved an excellently forthright sparring partner.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54It will come as no surprise to learn that I'm a huge fan of William Friedkin,
0:06:54 > 0:06:56director of The French Connection, Cruising,
0:06:56 > 0:07:00and the movie which I have been telling everyone for decades
0:07:00 > 0:07:03is the greatest film ever made - The Exorcist.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09But if you think that means that I just unconditionally love
0:07:09 > 0:07:12everything he's done, you'd be wrong. One of the things I admire most about Friedkin is
0:07:12 > 0:07:16his ongoing ability to confound, infuriate, surprise
0:07:16 > 0:07:19and sometimes just plain disappoint me,
0:07:19 > 0:07:22with films like the frankly silly killer tree yarn, The Guardian.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28And then, in 2006, something happened.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32Having turned 70, Friedkin rediscovered his mojo.
0:07:32 > 0:07:34The paranoid thriller Bug
0:07:34 > 0:07:38was adapted from the stage play by Tracy Letts.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41- Agnes...- Can you tell what it's doing?- Umm...no. - It's feeding.- Agnes.
0:07:41 > 0:07:43- Feeding? On what?- My blood.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45- It's feeding off my blood. - So you're saying it...?
0:07:45 > 0:07:48Jesus! I'm saying it's feeding off my blood. It's a parasite.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52Now he's re-teamed with Bug writer Letts to make Killer Joe,
0:07:52 > 0:07:57an uncompromising and provocative jet-black comedy about a family
0:07:57 > 0:08:01of rednecks who hire an assassin to knock off their estranged mother.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04My payment is 25,000, in cash,
0:08:04 > 0:08:07in advance, no exceptions.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11- 25?- Yes, sir.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13I asked you once, about ten years ago, you said,
0:08:13 > 0:08:16"I don't really have interest in doing stage plays."
0:08:16 > 0:08:18And yet, with Bug, it was like you rediscovered something
0:08:18 > 0:08:23from your earliest, angriest days of filmmaking.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26What is it that you rediscovered in Tracy Letts' plays?
0:08:26 > 0:08:31He and I both believe that there's good and evil in everyone,
0:08:31 > 0:08:35that it's a constant struggle for our better angels
0:08:35 > 0:08:37and our demons to prevail.
0:08:37 > 0:08:43We both see a lot of human behaviour as absurd.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45Are you going to kill my momma?
0:08:45 > 0:08:47Central to Killer Joe is a mesmerising performance
0:08:47 > 0:08:49from rising British star Juno Temple.
0:08:49 > 0:08:50I don't know.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56- Why?- I was just curious.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59My momma tried to kill me when I was real little.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03Juno Temple sent me, unsolicited,
0:09:03 > 0:09:08an audition video of herself playing Dottie.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12The minute I popped it into my computer and saw her audition,
0:09:12 > 0:09:15I felt she was exactly what I was looking for.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18She was a gift from the movie god.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21Because she cared more about herself than her little baby.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24She didn't love me like a momma should love a little baby.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28I've seen every film you've made, and they consistently
0:09:28 > 0:09:31disturb, confound, confuse, infuriate - all those things.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35There is one particular scene involving a piece of fried chicken,
0:09:35 > 0:09:39which I thought was genuinely one of the most repugnant things
0:09:39 > 0:09:41I've seen on screen in a long time.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44- If you want some chicken, we stopped by the K Fried C.- Yes, please.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47Sure. Help yourself, it's right here on the stove.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50- Fetch it for him, would you, hon? - Sure. White or dark?
0:09:51 > 0:09:52Leg.
0:09:52 > 0:09:54You want a beer?
0:09:54 > 0:09:55Yes, please.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00You set that on the table, please?
0:10:00 > 0:10:04It's meant to be a humiliation and an act of vengeance.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07It's strange, it's weird.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11I swear to you it is not in the film for shock purposes.
0:10:11 > 0:10:17I'm never aware that something I've done is going to have any effect whatsoever
0:10:17 > 0:10:21but what I try to do with the films I make is at least have them
0:10:21 > 0:10:24be cathartic in nature to the audience
0:10:24 > 0:10:26because they are intense.
0:10:27 > 0:10:28This is lovely.
0:10:32 > 0:10:33Who would like to say grace?
0:10:33 > 0:10:37What do you think are the sexual politics of Killer Joe,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40in as much as what it says about the relationship between men and women?
0:10:40 > 0:10:43- I don't know what the hell you're talking about!- Well, for example...
0:10:43 > 0:10:48What do you mean...? It says nothing about the sexual politics between men and women,
0:10:48 > 0:10:50to answer your question. It isn't about that.
0:10:50 > 0:10:55The story is about the fact that every little girl,
0:10:55 > 0:11:00everywhere in the world, wants to be Cinderella, IS Cinderella,
0:11:00 > 0:11:05and wants to get out of a horrible relationship with an evil stepmother
0:11:05 > 0:11:08or parents that don't understand her,
0:11:08 > 0:11:12and she wants to find her Prince Charming to take her away
0:11:12 > 0:11:14- and go and live in the castle.- Yeah.
0:11:14 > 0:11:19And every little boy at one time or another in his young life
0:11:19 > 0:11:20wants to be Prince Charming.
0:11:20 > 0:11:24And Dottie is looking for her Prince Charming
0:11:24 > 0:11:26and he comes along,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29- only he happens to be...- A homicidal maniac!- ..a hired killer!
0:11:30 > 0:11:34CIGARETTE LIGHTER FLICKS OPEN AND SHUT
0:11:34 > 0:11:38Of course, we never discussed the possibility of a retainer.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41Well, Billy, I have to say that at this point in your career,
0:11:41 > 0:11:46you are as repugnant and powerful as you were, so thank you very much.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50You really know how to sweet-talk a guy, Mark!
0:11:50 > 0:11:53One of this year's stand-out performances came from Willem Defoe
0:11:53 > 0:11:56in the existential Australian thriller The Hunter.
0:11:56 > 0:11:59Regularly described as a magnetic screen presence,
0:11:59 > 0:12:03Defoe didn't disappoint when we met to mull over the big questions.
0:12:05 > 0:12:07Willem Defoe's career spans such diverse roles
0:12:07 > 0:12:09as Blockbuster villains,
0:12:09 > 0:12:11art-house weirdos
0:12:11 > 0:12:14and intense leading men.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17But look closely at some of his best work,
0:12:17 > 0:12:20like Scorsese's controversial Last Temptation Of Christ...
0:12:21 > 0:12:24..or his collaborations with Paul Schrader,
0:12:24 > 0:12:27and a recurring theme starts to emerge.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31The classic figure of the isolated existential anti-hero
0:12:31 > 0:12:36through which film-makers can discuss big issues like life, death and the human condition
0:12:36 > 0:12:39is a role which all serious actors long to play,
0:12:39 > 0:12:42but the fact is very few of them can pull it off.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Willem Defoe is an exception.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50In his latest film, The Hunter, Defoe explores alienation
0:12:50 > 0:12:52in one of the world's most insular environments -
0:12:52 > 0:12:54the Tasmanian wilderness.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57Sent by an anonymous biotech company,
0:12:57 > 0:13:00he plays Martin David, a ruthless mercenary whose mission
0:13:00 > 0:13:05is to track down what's rumoured to be the last Tasmanian tiger.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12This movie very much deals with the possibility of redemption
0:13:12 > 0:13:15and that's also echoed somewhat...
0:13:15 > 0:13:17in the whole thing about...
0:13:17 > 0:13:21the tiger because the tiger is a piece of history that's been lost -
0:13:21 > 0:13:27you know, the deep sadness of losing this beautiful thing.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31Is there a possibility to go back or make it right?
0:13:31 > 0:13:35That's why there's sightings of the Tasmanian tiger all the time.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37People want badly for it to be...
0:13:39 > 0:13:40..rediscovered.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44For personal reasons, the films that stand out for me are the Schraders -
0:13:44 > 0:13:47The Last Temptation Of Christ, the Lars von Trier.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50This seems very much to sit in that particular thread.
0:13:50 > 0:13:56I think the one through-line is... has to do with directors.
0:13:56 > 0:14:01You know, I'm attracted to visionaries, mavericks, you know, auteurs,
0:14:01 > 0:14:06people that aren't studio-hired guns, for example.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10So that's a through-line, I think, pretty consistently.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12But you have become a muse for film-makers -
0:14:12 > 0:14:14I mean, you say auteurs, and I understand that -
0:14:14 > 0:14:17but film-makers dealing with big questions.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20- The meaning of life, God...- OK! I think...- You must be aware of that.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24- I think I got a good answer for you! - Great!
0:14:24 > 0:14:28I think my interest in movies besides kind of the adventure
0:14:28 > 0:14:31and the kind of plying my craft, or whatever that is,
0:14:31 > 0:14:35or just making things, the pleasure of making things, is I like movies that inspire.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38You know, on some level I'm just show-trash
0:14:38 > 0:14:40but on another level I'm an artist, you know,
0:14:40 > 0:14:42and I get the opportunity to make things.
0:14:42 > 0:14:47It's an invitation to rethink what your life could be like
0:14:47 > 0:14:49or what...who you could be.
0:14:49 > 0:14:52And I think that always stays with you.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55- RADIO:- 'And this just in - a woman has fallen to her death.
0:14:55 > 0:14:59'Police are withholding identification pending the notification of next-of-kin...'
0:14:59 > 0:15:02Obviously you've worked with Schrader. There is a similarity there
0:15:02 > 0:15:06- in Schrader's recurrent character of God's lonely man, the man alone on the Earth.- Yeah.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08And I thought of that when I was watching The Hunter.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10Does that ring a bell for you?
0:15:10 > 0:15:14I think I'm interested in that character, that idea of,
0:15:14 > 0:15:17you know, the world would be a better place
0:15:17 > 0:15:20if man could learn how to be alone in their room.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23I think we are alone.
0:15:23 > 0:15:29I think it's an interesting character that feels that loneliness
0:15:29 > 0:15:33and reflects on what his relationship is to other people.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36What do you mean when you say, "I think we are alone?"
0:15:36 > 0:15:38I-I think that's true. Yeah.
0:15:38 > 0:15:42I have some deep feeling for, "You're born alone, you die alone," you know.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54Are you fraught in...? I mean, on a personal level.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58Cos you play characters that have this extraordinary inattention and are very isolated,
0:15:58 > 0:16:02but, actually, meeting you now, you seem very...
0:16:02 > 0:16:06calm and relaxed. Do you go home and worry about things?
0:16:06 > 0:16:07When I'm performing,
0:16:07 > 0:16:12I do believe it is important to have a certain kind of tension.
0:16:12 > 0:16:13And a certain kind of...
0:16:13 > 0:16:18- I don't like slack, natural, relaxed performances.- Right.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21In life... I've got a good life, I can't complain.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24My wife always says, "Don't spit on your luck."
0:16:24 > 0:16:27I must complain sometimes, otherwise she wouldn't say that!
0:16:27 > 0:16:30But you're just kind of asking
0:16:30 > 0:16:33whether I'm kind of a anxt... a troubled person, right?
0:16:33 > 0:16:39I'm asking whether any of those things that I see again and again
0:16:39 > 0:16:42in the key characters that you play are part of you?
0:16:42 > 0:16:43Yeah. I think so.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45For some reason, and who knows why,
0:16:45 > 0:16:48maybe I got dropped on my head when I was a kid or something!
0:16:48 > 0:16:51But, erm...
0:16:51 > 0:16:53I'm able to contact a certain kind of...
0:16:53 > 0:16:55profound...anger
0:16:55 > 0:16:58and a profound, erm...
0:16:59 > 0:17:00..disappointment.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07There's a scene in The Hunter which there is a sense of a man
0:17:07 > 0:17:10going out and looking into the void
0:17:10 > 0:17:13and seeing himself look back out of it.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19If I was to describe the film, that's what I'd say it was about, but then no-one would go and see it.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23- It's true!- How would you describe it? - Tell them it's a fun, action adventure!
0:17:24 > 0:17:28Just get them there and once they get there, I think they'll enjoy it.
0:17:30 > 0:17:34For some, the most eagerly awaited film of this summer, if not this year,
0:17:34 > 0:17:38was the concluding part of Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41Proving that intelligent blockbusters really do exist,
0:17:41 > 0:17:46the man behind brain-scrambling hits like Inception joined me to talk caped crusaders, Gotham,
0:17:46 > 0:17:50and pleasing rather than patronising the multiplex audience.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02Christopher Nolan's brooding vision of Batman as an embodiment
0:18:02 > 0:18:05of Bruce Wayne's fractured psyche
0:18:05 > 0:18:08has set the Hollywood gold standard for comic-book adaptations.
0:18:11 > 0:18:15Nolan takes the discipline and ethics of art-house independent movie-making
0:18:15 > 0:18:18and applies them to major Hollywood blockbusters.
0:18:18 > 0:18:21He's living proof that you don't have to appeal
0:18:21 > 0:18:24to the lowest common denominator to be profitable.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26Christopher, welcome to The Culture Show.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29It seems to me the most significant thing you've done with your films
0:18:29 > 0:18:34is to demonstrate that whether you're working with a small budget or a large budget,
0:18:34 > 0:18:36you treat the audience intelligently?
0:18:36 > 0:18:38Very much so.
0:18:38 > 0:18:39I mean, for me,
0:18:39 > 0:18:44the only sincerity in film-making is to make a film
0:18:44 > 0:18:46- that you would want to go see yourself...- Yep.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50..and not treat the audience as anything separate from you.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53Our expectations when we go to see a film
0:18:53 > 0:18:56are different in different genres and at different budget levels,
0:18:56 > 0:19:01and that doesn't mean we're dumber when we go and see a bigger film,
0:19:01 > 0:19:03but we do have different expectations.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05It's a different register of language, in a sense.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12You see only one end to your journey.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16Sometimes, a man rises from the darkness.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22In The Dark Knight Rises, Christian Bale is back as Bruce Wayne,
0:19:22 > 0:19:24forced to bring Batman out of retirement
0:19:24 > 0:19:26when Gotham comes under threat.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29Tom Hardy plays his nemesis, Bane,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32whose avowed mission is to raze the city to the ground
0:19:32 > 0:19:33to cleanse it of sin.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36I was very aware of the size of Dark Knight Rises,
0:19:36 > 0:19:40and as we got to the end of the film, I heaved a sigh of relief,
0:19:40 > 0:19:42and the sigh of relief was, "He's done it.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46"He's got through this massive trilogy, and he hasn't let us down."
0:19:46 > 0:19:48Does any part of you now feel like,
0:19:48 > 0:19:51"OK, now I'd like to go and make a 1 million movie,"
0:19:51 > 0:19:53in which, you know, there isn't any possibility
0:19:53 > 0:19:56of letting everyone down because there's no pressure?
0:19:56 > 0:19:59Well, you know, it's funny,
0:19:59 > 0:20:02there is massive pressure on a smaller film as well.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06Pretty much every film I've ever worked on at every scale
0:20:06 > 0:20:09has had massive stakes to it, one way or another.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13I think, for me, I don't think very well in terms of scale.
0:20:13 > 0:20:17It's all about is there a story and a set of characters that interest me?
0:20:17 > 0:20:21I think the process has been really the same process
0:20:21 > 0:20:23in every film I have done.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25I mean, Batman Begins, Wally and I,
0:20:25 > 0:20:27from a photographic point of view...
0:20:27 > 0:20:30- Wally Pfister?- Wally Pfister, my DP.
0:20:30 > 0:20:31He had to be extremely precise,
0:20:31 > 0:20:34and it was the first time we'd done a large-scale film,
0:20:34 > 0:20:36and it needed to have a certain look,
0:20:36 > 0:20:40and we were trying to present Batman in a particular way.
0:20:40 > 0:20:41And I enjoyed it,
0:20:41 > 0:20:44but after seven months of saying to Gary Oldman,
0:20:44 > 0:20:47"No, you can't look that way, you've got to stay there,"
0:20:47 > 0:20:49we really wanted to loosen things up.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51And on The Prestige, we threw marks out of the window.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54We did everything with a hand-held camera.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56When we came back for The Dark Knight,
0:20:56 > 0:20:58we just brought that methodology with us.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02Christopher Nolan broke onto the scene
0:21:02 > 0:21:05with the head-scrambling thriller Memento,
0:21:05 > 0:21:08picking up an Oscar nomination for its screenplay.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10He continued to challenge audiences
0:21:10 > 0:21:14with his intricate tale of rival magicians in The Prestige,
0:21:14 > 0:21:17and then with the complex brainteaser Inception,
0:21:17 > 0:21:21which won four Oscars, and was nominated for a further four,
0:21:21 > 0:21:22including Best Picture.
0:21:23 > 0:21:27Memory is a key thread throughout your films.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30Do you think there is something about the medium of cinema
0:21:30 > 0:21:32that particularly lends itself
0:21:32 > 0:21:35to dealing with stories which deal with memory,
0:21:35 > 0:21:36which deal with dream states,
0:21:36 > 0:21:38which deal with going inside the psyche?
0:21:40 > 0:21:46I think the way in which your mind has to be active
0:21:46 > 0:21:49in putting together shots of a sequence
0:21:49 > 0:21:54dictates that there's a very strong relationship
0:21:54 > 0:21:56between memory and films.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59And we played around with that, most obviously in Memento,
0:21:59 > 0:22:03and it was an interesting thing to spend time really thinking about.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06But the relationship between the way your eyes see,
0:22:06 > 0:22:09the way your memory processes things,
0:22:09 > 0:22:11and then the sort of linear strip of film
0:22:11 > 0:22:13running through the projector,
0:22:13 > 0:22:16you know, that's showing you one shot after another
0:22:16 > 0:22:20and your mind is having to construct a three-dimensional reality,
0:22:20 > 0:22:23an idea of the room the characters are in, putting that together -
0:22:23 > 0:22:25it's a pretty fascinating puzzle.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29My mother warned me about getting into cars with strange men.
0:22:29 > 0:22:30This isn't a car.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35This autumn saw the release of Argot -
0:22:35 > 0:22:37part-political thriller, part-Hollywood satire,
0:22:37 > 0:22:39all Oscar-contender.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42The film's director and star, Ben Affleck,
0:22:42 > 0:22:43came on The Culture Show
0:22:43 > 0:22:46to talk about blending historical fact with dramatic fiction
0:22:46 > 0:22:48in his edge-of-the-seat nail-biter
0:22:48 > 0:22:51that the bookies are tipping as a Best Film favourite.
0:22:51 > 0:22:53CROWDS CHANT
0:22:55 > 0:22:59In the West, the late '70s was a time of socially progressive values,
0:22:59 > 0:23:01of the increased economic independence of women,
0:23:01 > 0:23:04of environmentalism...and of disco.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07MUSIC: "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" by Michael Jackson
0:23:07 > 0:23:10But further afield, this era of self-determination
0:23:10 > 0:23:11was expressed rather differently.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17In Iran, after the Islamic revolution,
0:23:17 > 0:23:18rising tensions with the US
0:23:18 > 0:23:21triggered the storming of the American Embassy,
0:23:21 > 0:23:25putting the CIA and the American Government on high alert,
0:23:25 > 0:23:27as 52 Americans were taken hostage.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31Although those events are well-rehearsed,
0:23:31 > 0:23:33Ben Affleck's new film, Argot,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35centres on a less well-known element of the story
0:23:35 > 0:23:39that sounds so absurd, it just HAS to be true.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43- What happened?- Six of the hostages went out a back exit.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46- Where are they? - The Canadian Ambassador's house.
0:23:46 > 0:23:47I've got an idea.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50They're a Canadian film crew for a science-fiction movie.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53I fly into Tehran, we all fly out together as a film crew.
0:23:53 > 0:23:54I need you to help me make a fake movie.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58So you want to come to Hollywood and act like a big shot without actually doing anything?
0:23:58 > 0:24:01- Yeah.- You'll fit right in.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03- Ben, welcome to The Culture Show. - Thanks so much for having me.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06I'm old enough to remember the hostage crisis,
0:24:06 > 0:24:08but I didn't know the story of Argot.
0:24:08 > 0:24:12- And the story was classified until about...- '97, yeah.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16The CIA had some sort of 50th anniversary celebration thing,
0:24:16 > 0:24:19and they declassified reams of material.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22The stuff sat on the shelf until somebody researched it.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24Eventually, the script ended up in my hands.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26It was a serpentine kind of journey,
0:24:26 > 0:24:29but one that I'm really glad ended up the way it did.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31What about the balancing of the threads?
0:24:31 > 0:24:33On the one hand, a comedic strand,
0:24:33 > 0:24:35on the other hand, a political thriller.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38Did you ever find it hard to balance, "How many laughs can we get?"
0:24:38 > 0:24:41in a scene which is being played off against a hostage situation?
0:24:41 > 0:24:45I thought when I read the script that that was going to be the most challenging thing,
0:24:45 > 0:24:49to synthesise these three tones, which were quite different.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51And, you know, as you point out,
0:24:51 > 0:24:54the laughter can really upend the rest of the material,
0:24:54 > 0:24:56because people are having fun
0:24:56 > 0:24:59and not taking it particularly seriously all of a sudden,
0:24:59 > 0:25:01because, hey, it's a comedy.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03Ultimately, what rescued me was that the acting,
0:25:03 > 0:25:06particularly in the comic part with John and Alan,
0:25:06 > 0:25:08was so real that it didn't seem to be different
0:25:08 > 0:25:10from the rest of the movie, oddly.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12- How about The Horses Of Achilles? - No good.
0:25:12 > 0:25:16- Nobody does westerns any more. - It's Ancient Troy.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18If it's got horses in it, it's a western.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20Yeah, Kenny, please.
0:25:20 > 0:25:22Yeah, it's John Chambers about the office space.
0:25:22 > 0:25:25It doesn't matter. It's a fake movie.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28If I'm doing a fake movie, it's going to be a fake hit.
0:25:28 > 0:25:32My assumption is that a good proportion of the audience
0:25:32 > 0:25:35won't know how it ended before they go in.
0:25:35 > 0:25:36Was that your feeling as well?
0:25:36 > 0:25:39My hope was that I would benefit from two things.
0:25:39 > 0:25:41One, from the fact that it was a true story.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43So you tell the audience, "This is true,"
0:25:43 > 0:25:46and they invest a little more deeply because they think,
0:25:46 > 0:25:47"Well, if I see someone die,
0:25:47 > 0:25:50"then I'll think of them and that they really died."
0:25:50 > 0:25:53Two, it's not SO true and so well-known
0:25:53 > 0:25:56that you can't still surprise the audience.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59- ENGINE REVS - Almost! Every time!
0:25:59 > 0:26:03Argot is a departure from Affleck's directorial home turf.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06His first two films, Gone, Baby Gone, and The Town,
0:26:06 > 0:26:08were both crime thrillers based in Boston.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15But for this film, with George Clooney producing,
0:26:15 > 0:26:19he's broken those geographical and topical boundaries.
0:26:19 > 0:26:22Look, they're going to try to break you by trying to get you agitated.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25You have to know your resume back to front.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28You really believe your story's going to make difference
0:26:28 > 0:26:29when there's a gun to our heads?
0:26:29 > 0:26:33I think my story's the only thing between you and a gun to your head.
0:26:33 > 0:26:36George Clooney, when he was over here in the UK some years ago,
0:26:36 > 0:26:39was talking about wanting to make movies
0:26:39 > 0:26:42that had political threads but that worked as dramas,
0:26:42 > 0:26:44and watching this, it seemed very much to me
0:26:44 > 0:26:46that I can see that vision of his.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49How was your relationship with him as a producer?
0:26:49 > 0:26:50George is a very smart guy.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53He is the smartest guy I've ever met in Hollywood.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56Obviously understand politics, extremely winning, charming guy.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59- And handsome. - VERY handsome, not that I noticed.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01But he's very, very handsome.
0:27:01 > 0:27:03As you say, this project lines up very neatly
0:27:03 > 0:27:07with that description of wanting to make a certain kind of movie,
0:27:07 > 0:27:09and George is smart enough to understand
0:27:09 > 0:27:11you can't do something didactic, preachy,
0:27:11 > 0:27:13that says, "We want you to believe this,"
0:27:13 > 0:27:16and where you're an air traffic controller with the audience.
0:27:16 > 0:27:19But, you know, you can have some of this provocative,
0:27:19 > 0:27:23thought-provoking content in a movie.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25You're getting a visitor.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28- Have you gotten people out this way before?- No.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31You're asking us to trust you with our lives.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33This is what I do. I've never left anyone behind.
0:27:33 > 0:27:34I really enjoyed the movie.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37- Thanks very much. - A pleasure. Nice interview!
0:27:37 > 0:27:39That's almost it for tonight, and, indeed,
0:27:39 > 0:27:41for The Culture Show for this year.
0:27:41 > 0:27:45We're back on January 23rd with an interview with Stephen Spielberg,
0:27:45 > 0:27:48talking about his potential Oscar heavyweight Lincoln.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51If you want more culture in the meantime, go to...
0:27:51 > 0:27:55Finally tonight, we have a documentary about Bill Cunningham,
0:27:55 > 0:27:57the octogenarian street style photographer
0:27:57 > 0:27:59whose eye for the next big trend
0:27:59 > 0:28:02inspires the movers and shakers of the fashion world
0:28:02 > 0:28:04from New York to London. Goodnight.
0:28:04 > 0:28:08He and I and all my team and all the rest of the world,
0:28:08 > 0:28:10were all sitting in the same fashion shows,
0:28:10 > 0:28:13but he's seen something on the street or on the runway
0:28:13 > 0:28:15that completely missed all of us.
0:28:15 > 0:28:19And in six months time, you know, that will be a trend.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23You have to do three things.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26You don't get the most information from any one.
0:28:26 > 0:28:28You have to photograph the collections,
0:28:28 > 0:28:31you have to photograph the women on the street
0:28:31 > 0:28:33who have bought the things,
0:28:33 > 0:28:35and how they're wearing them,
0:28:35 > 0:28:38and then you have to go to the evening events.
0:28:38 > 0:28:42You can't report to the public unless you've seen it all.
0:28:42 > 0:28:44People just go off and say what they think.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48Well, it isn't really what I think, it's what I SEE.