0:00:05 > 0:00:07Well, boy, how you feel now?
0:00:08 > 0:00:10My name is Solomon Northup.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13I am a free man and you have no right whatsoever to detain me.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17You're no free man, you're nothing but a Georgia runaway.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24- MARK KERMODE:- 12 Years A Slave is the story of Solomon Northup -
0:00:24 > 0:00:28a free black man who is kidnapped and sold into slavery.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39It's only the third feature by director Steve McQueen but Oscars
0:00:39 > 0:00:43are expected for both McQueen and his lead actor, Chiwetel Ejiofor.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Steve McQueen is not only a respected feature film director
0:00:50 > 0:00:53but also a Turner prize-winning artist.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58He gained a reputation in the '90s as a thoughtful
0:00:58 > 0:01:01and provocative film-maker.
0:01:02 > 0:01:05The transition from art gallery to movie theatre is not always
0:01:05 > 0:01:08successful but McQueen has already won a BAFTA
0:01:08 > 0:01:10and a prestigious Camera d'Or at Cannes.
0:01:12 > 0:01:13There's just a huge truth to him as a man
0:01:13 > 0:01:17and I think that's what he tries to pursue in whatever he's doing.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19I think that's what people respond to in his work.
0:01:19 > 0:01:24He doesn't shy away from provoking and evoking feeling in you.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27I think he wants to get as close to the experience as possible
0:01:27 > 0:01:32and he wants an audience to feel they are inside the experience.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34That's what makes not only his installation work but also
0:01:34 > 0:01:37his film work so particular, because he is so particulous.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40He is so different.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43This is the story behind the making of his latest film
0:01:43 > 0:01:45and the history that shaped it.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49And a look at the prestigious career of an artist and director
0:01:49 > 0:01:53unafraid to deal with uncomfortable and provocative subject matter.
0:02:05 > 0:02:11America has always had a complex and conflicted relationship with its slave history.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15Over 400,000 slaves were shipped to America in the 1620s.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20By the outbreak of the civil war in 1861
0:02:20 > 0:02:22their numbers had grown to four million.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29The memoir of Solomon Northup, a free black man who was kidnapped by
0:02:29 > 0:02:33slavers, is one of the few first-hand accounts that exists of this time.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40It's the basis of 12 Years A Slave,
0:02:40 > 0:02:43the latest film from British director Steve McQueen.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47The most extraordinary thing about the film, which I think is
0:02:47 > 0:02:51really powerful, and really moving,
0:02:51 > 0:02:55is that I didn't know that story, How did you come across it?
0:02:55 > 0:02:59I always wanted to make a movie about slavery, always,
0:02:59 > 0:03:02and it was always about how one got into the material,
0:03:02 > 0:03:08what was my "in" as such, and I had this idea of a free man
0:03:08 > 0:03:11in the north who basically gets kidnapped into slavery
0:03:11 > 0:03:16and through his journey we, the audience, follow him.
0:03:16 > 0:03:21And I was sort of trying to write this idea, and then what happened
0:03:21 > 0:03:24was, my wife said, "Why don't you look into true accounts of slavery?"
0:03:24 > 0:03:26And I thought, of course, yeah, dur,
0:03:26 > 0:03:29as you do, and, of course, we both
0:03:29 > 0:03:33did this research and what happened was she came across this book
0:03:33 > 0:03:36called 12 Years A Slave by Solomon Northup
0:03:36 > 0:03:38and as soon as it was in my hands
0:03:38 > 0:03:42I opened the book, opened the page, and I didn't let it go.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45For me, living in the Netherlands, it was almost like looking at
0:03:45 > 0:03:52Anne Frank's diary, it was this first-hand account of slavery, it's amazing.
0:03:52 > 0:03:58In 12 Years A Slave, Solomon Northup is played by Chiwetel Ejiofor,
0:03:58 > 0:04:02alongside Benedict Cumberbatch, Michael Fassbender
0:04:02 > 0:04:03and newcomer Lupita Nyong'o.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09Brad Pitt has a cameo appearance as well as producing the film.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12You said that you'd always wanted to make a film about slavery,
0:04:12 > 0:04:16what was it particularly that drew you to wanting to do that?
0:04:16 > 0:04:19Well, for me, it was never represented, really.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22I'm from the West Indies, my parents are from the West Indies,
0:04:22 > 0:04:26and, of course, some of my ancestors were slaves.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29And, for me, not to have that history visualised on film,
0:04:29 > 0:04:31on celluloid, was very strange.
0:04:31 > 0:04:37It's a huge part of not just American history but world history,
0:04:37 > 0:04:42European history, so therefore I needed it to be on film
0:04:42 > 0:04:47and to see, investigate myself through the camera, what occurred, as such.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54Solomon's story begins in 1841.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57His world implodes when his comfortable family life
0:04:57 > 0:04:59in New York state is taken away from him
0:04:59 > 0:05:02and he is sold to work in the plantations of the Deep South.
0:05:05 > 0:05:06Powerless to protest,
0:05:06 > 0:05:10he's unable to get word to his family that he has been kidnapped.
0:05:13 > 0:05:15SHE SOBS
0:05:17 > 0:05:18Eliza.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22STOP! Stop your wailing.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27You let yourself be overcome by sorrow, you will drown in it.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Have you stopped crying for your children?
0:05:31 > 0:05:34You make no sounds but will you ever let them go in your heart?
0:05:39 > 0:05:42- They are as my flesh. - Then who is distressed?
0:05:43 > 0:05:45Do I upset the master and mistress,
0:05:45 > 0:05:48do you care less about my loss than their well-being?
0:05:48 > 0:05:51- Master Ford is a decent man.- He is a slaver!- Under the circumstances...
0:05:51 > 0:05:54Under the circumstances he is a slaver.
0:05:54 > 0:05:59- You truckle at his boot, you luxuriate in his favour.- I survive!
0:05:59 > 0:06:01I will not fall into despair!
0:06:01 > 0:06:03I will offer up my talents to Master Ford,
0:06:03 > 0:06:06I will keep myself hearty until freedom is opportune.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09Solomon is somebody who starts off in this story
0:06:09 > 0:06:11believing that he's in a battle for his freedom
0:06:11 > 0:06:14but discovers through this story that he's in a battle for his mind.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17It's an amazing first person account from
0:06:17 > 0:06:20so deep inside this experience that really speaks to...
0:06:21 > 0:06:25I mean, so much of the way the world worked then, the way it works
0:06:25 > 0:06:30now, his way of being able to relate, poetically relate,
0:06:30 > 0:06:35the story of what happened to him so powerfully was so extraordinary.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38And that servant
0:06:38 > 0:06:43that don't obey his Lord shall be beaten with many strikes.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45That's scripture.
0:06:45 > 0:06:48McQueen's regular collaborator Michael Fassbender plays
0:06:48 > 0:06:50a sadistic plantation owner...
0:06:50 > 0:06:52Speak! Man does how he pleases with his property.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56The film has been praised for its unflinching portrayal
0:06:56 > 0:06:58of the brutality that slaves suffered.
0:06:58 > 0:07:03Tell me how you approached the physicality of the subject of
0:07:03 > 0:07:07slavery, because it's very difficult to know exactly what you can show,
0:07:07 > 0:07:10what you can't show and how you can put the audience in those positions.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12Well, I didn't want to censor myself on anything
0:07:12 > 0:07:14so I said to myself, "I'm going to show everything."
0:07:14 > 0:07:17Do you have a completely non-censorious approach
0:07:17 > 0:07:18to your vision?
0:07:18 > 0:07:20I'm a bit weird like that, I suppose.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26No, in this case it was about the truth.
0:07:26 > 0:07:28How could I make a movie about slavery
0:07:28 > 0:07:33- and not show certain aspects of it?- Yeah.- I cannot.
0:07:33 > 0:07:35It would be, for my ancestors,
0:07:35 > 0:07:40and for other people's, it would be sort of...
0:07:40 > 0:07:48you know... it would be a travesty. You can't do that. I mean, what is slavery?
0:07:48 > 0:07:51Slavery is sort of, you know,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54making people work in servitude.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56And how do you get them to do that?
0:07:56 > 0:08:00Well, you punish them. You scare the hell out of them.
0:08:00 > 0:08:02And how do you do that? By making examples of people.
0:08:02 > 0:08:03And how do you do that?
0:08:03 > 0:08:07By the most horrible acts of brutality one can think of.
0:08:08 > 0:08:12How am I sitting here? Because certain people survived that.
0:08:13 > 0:08:17So...you know, there was not a choice. It's not a question.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23In the 19th century, slavery divided America both geographically
0:08:23 > 0:08:25and morally.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28At the time of Solomon's kidnap,
0:08:28 > 0:08:33America was split into 13 free states and 13 slave states.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38Part of that free black population came about because...
0:08:38 > 0:08:42a large part came about because of the American revolution.
0:08:43 > 0:08:49By the time Solomon Northup is kidnapped in 1841,
0:08:49 > 0:08:55there is approximately 200,000-250,000 free black Americans
0:08:55 > 0:08:57living across the northern states.
0:08:58 > 0:09:03Slavery becomes very much a southern phenomena, in contrast to
0:09:03 > 0:09:08the northern states, where mostly northern states pass emancipation
0:09:08 > 0:09:12laws which free their slaves at the time of the revolution.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15It's seen very much as contradicting notions of liberty
0:09:15 > 0:09:19and equality, but in the south, southern plantation owners
0:09:19 > 0:09:23interpret liberty as the right to own slaves.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27Well, to be a free black in the northern states
0:09:27 > 0:09:30would be much better than being a slave in the south
0:09:30 > 0:09:33but there were would be all sorts of limitations.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36Both legal and political.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40Solomon Northup is an educated man partly
0:09:40 > 0:09:43because he grows up in the free states and here he's able to
0:09:43 > 0:09:47partake in education, to learn to read and write.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49But I think it's really interesting because
0:09:49 > 0:09:51despite his obvious intelligence,
0:09:51 > 0:09:55despite his interest in culture, in the arts, in music,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58most of the paid labour he performs is manual.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00So that says to me that there's still,
0:10:00 > 0:10:04what Solomon Northup calls, "the burden of colour" in the north.
0:10:04 > 0:10:09Mr Northup, I have two gentleman whose acquaintance you should make.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14America's foreign slave trade ended in 1807, but domestically,
0:10:14 > 0:10:16the practice was still legal.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20Welcome to Washington, Solomon.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23To feed the south's need for slave labour,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26black men and women in the free northern states were kidnapped
0:10:26 > 0:10:30and sold to plantation owners in the slave states of the south.
0:10:32 > 0:10:33Kidnapping is a major issue
0:10:33 > 0:10:37in mid-19th century America.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40One can't quantify how many people were kidnapped but a considerable
0:10:40 > 0:10:44number of free black people were kidnapped and sold into slavery.
0:10:44 > 0:10:48Solomon is sent to the plantations of the Deep South,
0:10:48 > 0:10:51the economic engine room of 19th-century America.
0:10:53 > 0:10:57By the 1850s, the eve of the American Civil War,
0:10:57 > 0:11:01there were approximately four million American slaves.
0:11:01 > 0:11:06Their total dollar value at that time, as an asset,
0:11:06 > 0:11:10as a financial asset, was approximately 3.5 billion.
0:11:10 > 0:11:15That was the single largest financial asset in the entire
0:11:15 > 0:11:16American economy.
0:11:16 > 0:11:21Slaves as property were worth more than all manufacturing,
0:11:21 > 0:11:25all railroads, all banking assets,
0:11:25 > 0:11:27all the rest of the economy put together.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35By the middle of the 19th century, the slave system
0:11:35 > 0:11:38in the United States was the largest in the world, the only
0:11:38 > 0:11:42other country that came close was Brazil.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48It is central to more than just the south,
0:11:48 > 0:11:51slave labour is part of a national economic system.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54In fact, it is part of an international economic system
0:11:54 > 0:11:59and what makes it profitable is the global demand for textile goods,
0:11:59 > 0:12:03so you can follow cotton from the Deep South all the way to
0:12:03 > 0:12:08this country, Liverpool, where it is finished into textile goods
0:12:08 > 0:12:12and put on steam ships, disseminated around the British Empire,
0:12:12 > 0:12:15indeed, around the world.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Cotton and sugar production demanded backbreaking labour.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20As a consequence,
0:12:20 > 0:12:24the slave mortality rate was at its highest in the Deep South.
0:12:24 > 0:12:29Louisiana really epitomises everything that's bad about slavery.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32Slave people often talk about their fears of being
0:12:32 > 0:12:35sold down the river and when they say this, they are not
0:12:35 > 0:12:39talking metaphorically, they are talking literally because that river
0:12:39 > 0:12:44is the Mississippi, which famously ends in the port of New Orleans.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Those wouldn't be the places you want to be if you are a slave.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50Those plantations tended to be bigger than your average
0:12:50 > 0:12:54southern plantation, the work conditions tended to be harder,
0:12:54 > 0:12:56the work itself tended to be harder.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06Tell me about shooting in those locations.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09One of the things you were attempting to do was see the world
0:13:09 > 0:13:12through your central character's eyes, but tell me
0:13:12 > 0:13:15about being there and breathing that air.
0:13:15 > 0:13:20Well, you know, New Orleans has this... It's a sweet scent of...
0:13:20 > 0:13:22or the perfume of music.
0:13:22 > 0:13:28It is a very...spiritual, as such or haunted.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30It's got spirits there.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34It has an other dimension, other elements which are within the environment.
0:13:39 > 0:13:45EJIOFOR: 'We shot scenes by lynching trees and it's impossible not to feel that,
0:13:45 > 0:13:48'to know that you are really dancing with spirits.'
0:13:48 > 0:13:51You feel that you are connected to something
0:13:51 > 0:13:54and you are connected to one of the most extraordinary
0:13:54 > 0:13:59experiences that a collective group of people have ever gone through.
0:13:59 > 0:14:03That was really powerful, to be on a set where everything took you
0:14:03 > 0:14:06back to a totally different time.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10I never thought I would be picking cotton in my life and to be
0:14:10 > 0:14:15doing that at the height of summer, the height of noon,
0:14:15 > 0:14:17I just...
0:14:17 > 0:14:23Was faced with how strong these people were that lived through
0:14:23 > 0:14:25these days.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29These people did it for 16, 18, sometimes 20 hours a day.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32That is something to reckon with.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36This is a list of goods and sundries.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39You will take it to be filled and return immediately.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42Solomon is unusual amongst his fellow slaves because he can
0:14:42 > 0:14:47read and write, a fact he has to hide from his slave owners.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49A literate slave is a dangerous slave,
0:14:49 > 0:14:51a literate slave has a form of power,
0:14:51 > 0:14:55a literate slave has the ability to understand the outside world
0:14:55 > 0:14:59and possibly to communicate with the outside world, to read newspapers.
0:14:59 > 0:15:04The literate slave has knowledge or can attain knowledge,
0:15:04 > 0:15:09and knowledge, in this case, not just a cliche, knowledge can be
0:15:09 > 0:15:13power and therefore the literate slave was always dangerous.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16Therefore he is urged, even by his fellow slaves, "Solomon,
0:15:16 > 0:15:19"don't let them know you can read and write."
0:15:19 > 0:15:21Where are you from?
0:15:23 > 0:15:26- I told you.- Tell me again.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30- Washington.- Who was your master? - Master name of Freemen.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32Was he a learn'd man?
0:15:32 > 0:15:35- I suppose so.- He learn you to read?
0:15:37 > 0:15:41A word here or there. But I have no understanding...
0:15:41 > 0:15:44Don't trouble yourself with it.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48Same as the rest, master brought you here to work, that's all.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51Any more will learn you 100 lashes.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57After 12 years, Solomon is finally liberated.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01His traumatic survival story is published soon after in 1853
0:16:01 > 0:16:04and immediately becomes a bestseller.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08Of the 100 or so accounts of slavery that were written at the time,
0:16:08 > 0:16:12Solomon's is the only first-hand account of a kidnapped free man,
0:16:12 > 0:16:16most never escape their enslavement.
0:16:16 > 0:16:18It's really popular among northern abolitionists,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21as are many other works by formerly enslaved people,
0:16:21 > 0:16:24such as Frederick Douglass's autobiography
0:16:24 > 0:16:28and a whole raft of fictional accounts of slavery as well,
0:16:28 > 0:16:31including Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin, which really
0:16:31 > 0:16:35exposes to American society the brutality of enslavement.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38It was illegal to have this kind of literature
0:16:38 > 0:16:40if you lived in the south.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44People who were caught selling abolitionist literature
0:16:44 > 0:16:49in the south were dealt with very severely. Yes, yes.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53In some cases you could get ten years for being in possession
0:16:53 > 0:16:54of Uncle Tom's Cabin.
0:16:54 > 0:16:59Despite its initial popularity, Solomon's story disappeared
0:16:59 > 0:17:02from public consciousness after the American Civil War.
0:17:04 > 0:17:09In broad general terms, white Americans are not discussing
0:17:09 > 0:17:10the slavery question any longer,
0:17:10 > 0:17:13they are not discussing the rights of blacks.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17What they want to talk about is the individual valour
0:17:17 > 0:17:21and heroism of northern and southern white soldiers,
0:17:21 > 0:17:24and there is no space in that discussion
0:17:24 > 0:17:28for the African-Americans, so they are kind of written out
0:17:28 > 0:17:31of the popular memory in the late 19th century.
0:17:31 > 0:17:37Americans love a past and a story that says, "We are
0:17:37 > 0:17:40"problem-solvers, we are a people of progress, we are
0:17:40 > 0:17:43"a nation on a trajectory of improvement," or,
0:17:43 > 0:17:45as somebody once said,
0:17:45 > 0:17:48"The United States is supposed to be the country that was born almost
0:17:48 > 0:17:52"perfect and then launched a career at just getting better."
0:17:52 > 0:17:56The slave narratives, the whole story of slavery,
0:17:56 > 0:17:58punctures that.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01- Cut!- Cutting.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04McQueen's film is a piercing exploration of one
0:18:04 > 0:18:06of America's darkest eras.
0:18:08 > 0:18:13Despite its huge impact on American history and culture, slavery is
0:18:13 > 0:18:17a subject that Hollywood has rarely or accurately explored on film.
0:18:19 > 0:18:24The American film industry has typically depicted slavery
0:18:24 > 0:18:27in rather benign and a rather stereotypical way.
0:18:27 > 0:18:32There's an old joke, nightclub joke, that Lenny Bruce used to say,
0:18:32 > 0:18:37"What's the difference between Lassie and a black man in a movie?
0:18:37 > 0:18:39"At the end of the movie Lassie lives."
0:18:39 > 0:18:44Americans do not deal well with this story of race and slavery
0:18:44 > 0:18:49and most Hollywood efforts and attempts over the many, many
0:18:49 > 0:18:54decades to represent slavery have not been very effective.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58An early depiction of black America featured in DW Griffith's
0:18:58 > 0:19:021915 epic, Birth Of A Nation, a story that chronicled
0:19:02 > 0:19:05the relationship of a northern and southern family.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08Although a commercial success at the time, it has
0:19:08 > 0:19:11since been highly criticised for portraying
0:19:11 > 0:19:15African-Americans as unintelligent and sexually aggressive
0:19:15 > 0:19:18and the Ku Klux Klan as a heroic force.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22The less said about that Ku Klux Klan film, Birth Of A Nation,
0:19:22 > 0:19:26the better. I don't think it has anything to say that is remotely...
0:19:28 > 0:19:35It's power was in its technique rather than its interpretation of what was going on.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38It is completely false and misguided.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40As we move through the century we have Gone With The Wind,
0:19:40 > 0:19:42a family favourite.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44So, Gone With The Wind, as we all know,
0:19:44 > 0:19:46is the plantation writ large,
0:19:46 > 0:19:50you have your Roman columns to simulate Roman power and the
0:19:50 > 0:19:55plantation itself being the bastion of civilisation in the south.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58This notion of architecture and power,
0:19:58 > 0:20:01the big house and enslaved people working in the fields.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04- Quitting time! - Who says it's quitting time?
0:20:04 > 0:20:06- I said it's quitting time. - I is the foreman.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10I's the one who says when it's quitting time at Tara. Quittin' time!
0:20:10 > 0:20:12Quittin' time!
0:20:12 > 0:20:14And this was mythologised and romanticised
0:20:14 > 0:20:18and the investment in the happy plantation slave, the singing
0:20:18 > 0:20:21banjo-playing darkie, to use the racist terminology of the time.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Mammy! Here's Miss Scarlett's vittles!
0:20:24 > 0:20:26You can take it all back to the kitchen, I won't eat a bite!
0:20:26 > 0:20:30Oh, yes, you is! Yous gwanna eat every mouthful of this!
0:20:30 > 0:20:34So, it's problematic in that it's a great picture but it's a lie.
0:20:35 > 0:20:40American television also tackled the subject of slavery.
0:20:40 > 0:20:45In the 1970s, Roots became an overnight hit in the US and Britain.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49Based on the Pulitzer prize-winning novel by Alex Haley,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52it's the story of a family's journey from enslavement in Ghana
0:20:52 > 0:20:56to their struggle to survive the plantations and Civil War.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00The key to Roots and the marketing of Roots,
0:21:00 > 0:21:03which was brilliant, was that it was called Roots -
0:21:03 > 0:21:05The Story Of An American Family.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08So, for Americans, a family.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10Very classic, very Dickensian
0:21:10 > 0:21:14and the storytelling was easy to follow and you could relate.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17I think you're going to make it.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19Lord be praised, Toby, you're going to walk.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24Woman, I told ya, my name ain't no Toby.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29I am Kunte Kinte, son of Omoro and Kairaba Kinte.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31A fighting man from the village of Juffure.
0:21:31 > 0:21:36It was great storytelling in an era of great stories about families,
0:21:36 > 0:21:42The Godfather, Roots, all stories of people who are marginalised
0:21:42 > 0:21:46in American society, Italian-Americans, African-Americans,
0:21:46 > 0:21:52suddenly here they are, and Roots would fit right into that.
0:21:52 > 0:21:57Roots, the great television series of the 1970s, garnered the largest
0:21:57 > 0:22:03audience for a dramatic series in the history of television at that time.
0:22:03 > 0:22:07It was eight hours, eight nights, on national television.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11I was a high school teacher when Roots played.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13I was in a large urban high school,
0:22:13 > 0:22:17half black and half white, in Flint, Michigan.
0:22:17 > 0:22:22And when Roots played on American television, every night for more than a week,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25we had near riots in our hallways.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29This was the 1970s, most American youth were, for the first time,
0:22:29 > 0:22:32learning anything about slavery.
0:22:41 > 0:22:45Most recently, Quentin Tarantino's award-winning Django Unchained
0:22:45 > 0:22:49tackled the subject of slavery and divided the critics.
0:22:53 > 0:22:59Django Unchained is this cartoonish revenge film of the ultimate
0:22:59 > 0:23:02badass hero who kills all the white people
0:23:02 > 0:23:06and rides off into the sunset like in a spaghetti western.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12I saw it in the theatre where people cheered and rollicked
0:23:12 > 0:23:15and had a grand old time.
0:23:15 > 0:23:20I personally found Django Unchained offensive.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24They're spending the night. Go up in the guest bedrooms and get two ready.
0:23:24 > 0:23:28- He going to stay in the big house? - He is a slaver. It's different.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31- In the big house? - You got a problem with that?
0:23:31 > 0:23:33Oh, no, I ain't got no problem.
0:23:33 > 0:23:38If that's the lens through which we can get to the history of slavery, we are a sick people.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46Django Unchained is a film-maker's movie.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50There's a lot of historical inaccuracies in it but what
0:23:50 > 0:23:53happens with Django is you never for a moment think
0:23:53 > 0:23:56you are looking at anything that is real. You never do.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00You know that you are going to a Quentin Tarantino picture.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03I've had real arguments with younger black artists,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06but this is a Quentin Tarantino picture,
0:24:06 > 0:24:12do you go see Quentin Tarantino to tell you anything about history? No.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16History was the inspiration for McQueen's feature, 12 Years A Slave.
0:24:16 > 0:24:19160 years after it was first published,
0:24:19 > 0:24:22it's been brought to a cinema-going audience.
0:24:22 > 0:24:26McQueen's film is important in so many ways.
0:24:26 > 0:24:30He takes the slave narrative that is narrated by an individual who
0:24:30 > 0:24:34was born free and sold into slavery as a result of kidnapping.
0:24:34 > 0:24:39What this does politically, artistically, imaginatively,
0:24:39 > 0:24:42is it means the audience are empathetic with an individual
0:24:42 > 0:24:45who is, in inverted commas, like them.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48So, he starts from a position of similarity to get to
0:24:48 > 0:24:51a position of difference and what he does then is create
0:24:51 > 0:24:55a world that is very unfamiliar and that's where the horror of it lies.
0:25:00 > 0:25:04McQueen has a reputation for creating strong, visceral images,
0:25:04 > 0:25:08first practised in his early career as a visual artist
0:25:08 > 0:25:10working primarily with film.
0:25:12 > 0:25:17If you look back at... when you started out working in visual art,
0:25:17 > 0:25:22are there pieces you are proud of and do you still see yourself...
0:25:22 > 0:25:25Do you see yourself primarily as a film-maker or
0:25:25 > 0:25:28primarily as an artist who makes films?
0:25:28 > 0:25:31I don't see myself as anything. I just do stuff.
0:25:31 > 0:25:33I'm lucky enough that I can do stuff.
0:25:33 > 0:25:37Would you go back and do other stuff or has film become your abiding
0:25:37 > 0:25:39- passion?- I do... No, I do everything.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42It's the same thing, art or film is the same thing.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46I don't see any difference. It's not... I don't see any divide at all.
0:25:46 > 0:25:50Maybe. Of course, I think art is,
0:25:50 > 0:25:53to a certain extent, like poetry.
0:25:53 > 0:25:57It's concise, it's precise, and maybe film-making is
0:25:57 > 0:26:02more of the yarn, the novel, as such, because there's a narrative to that.
0:26:02 > 0:26:06There can be narrative in art as well, but maybe fractioned.
0:26:06 > 0:26:11Anyway, it's the same thing. You use the same language, the same thing. That's all.
0:26:15 > 0:26:19The piece that first brought McQueen to the attention of the art
0:26:19 > 0:26:22world was his 1993 work, Bear.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27It's a film of two naked men wrestling
0:26:27 > 0:26:29and, as Steve told me,
0:26:29 > 0:26:31at that time he wanted there to be two actors
0:26:31 > 0:26:34but one of the actors didn't show up.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37It's a very, very stylised piece so there were moments
0:26:37 > 0:26:43when we had to repeat a lot of movements quite a lot because he was
0:26:43 > 0:26:48very specific about the shape, the shot he was looking for, the angle.
0:26:48 > 0:26:53He is very meticulous. That's one thing about Steve, detail.
0:26:53 > 0:26:59Very often when a powerful work of art appears it triggers a rumour,
0:26:59 > 0:27:02and I lived in Paris at the time, before I lived in London,
0:27:02 > 0:27:05and I had messages from a friend saying it is urgent,
0:27:05 > 0:27:08come to the ICA, there is this extraordinary work of art,
0:27:08 > 0:27:11it left no-one indifferent and created a rumour far
0:27:11 > 0:27:15beyond London that this great new artist had emerged on the art scene.
0:27:15 > 0:27:20The characters, or the two male protagonists, it was very unclear
0:27:20 > 0:27:24whether they were really fighting, whether there was an element
0:27:24 > 0:27:28of homoeroticism in their interaction.
0:27:28 > 0:27:34There were times when they appeared less to be wrestling than to be dancing, in a way.
0:27:34 > 0:27:39You just get captured by the feeling of it, or by the movement of it,
0:27:39 > 0:27:43or by the rhythm of it, or by the... or by...
0:27:43 > 0:27:49There's just something that makes you want to stay a while and watch it.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55McQueen's love of cinema is evident from his early installations
0:27:55 > 0:27:57which reference cinema classics.
0:27:58 > 0:28:03Deadpan is a film that Steve made for a solo exhibition that he
0:28:03 > 0:28:06went on to have here at the ICA in '97.
0:28:06 > 0:28:12Steve took this cinema moment from Buster Keaton where
0:28:12 > 0:28:16the front facade of an entire house falls on top of him.
0:28:16 > 0:28:21Steve reworked this and repeats this motif.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24I think he is really extrapolating
0:28:24 > 0:28:29and sucking out all of the formal
0:28:29 > 0:28:32and cinematic qualities,
0:28:32 > 0:28:37things like the wind that such an event creates
0:28:37 > 0:28:39or the vibrations on the face.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42What I think this introduces into Steve McQueen's work is
0:28:42 > 0:28:45a sense of the body under pressure,
0:28:45 > 0:28:49the body under physical pressure, under mental pressure,
0:28:49 > 0:28:55a sense of physical confinement, and this becomes claustrophobia
0:28:55 > 0:28:58in some of his more recent films.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01It's impossible to be indifferent because the house falls on the viewer as well,
0:29:01 > 0:29:04it falls on Steve, but the viewer as well,
0:29:04 > 0:29:06and it's an incredibly sculptural piece.
0:29:06 > 0:29:08Many of these films
0:29:08 > 0:29:12are relatively short but they are incredibly addictive.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15Someone looks at them again and again and again and again.
0:29:15 > 0:29:18I don't know anybody who has seen Deadpan only once.
0:29:18 > 0:29:23It creates a situation where one cannot stop watching it on a loop.
0:29:27 > 0:29:31In 1999, McQueen was nominated for the Turner Prize.
0:29:32 > 0:29:36Also on the short list were twins Jane and Louise Wilson for their film work,
0:29:36 > 0:29:40Steven Pippin for sculpture and photography and, most
0:29:40 > 0:29:45controversially, Tracey Emin for work which included her unmade bed.
0:29:45 > 0:29:50We wanted Steve to win because the work had this amazing presence,
0:29:50 > 0:29:53amazing formality to it
0:29:53 > 0:29:58and, in a way, a weight that would sustain through time.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01When it came to, "And the winner is..."
0:30:01 > 0:30:03then it pretty much had to be him.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06It was an absolutely timely recognition
0:30:06 > 0:30:09of somebody who produced a compelling
0:30:09 > 0:30:12and really singular body of work,
0:30:12 > 0:30:15not just in Britain but throughout...throughout the world.
0:30:17 > 0:30:22In 2004, McQueen collaborated with movie star Charlotte Rampling,
0:30:22 > 0:30:26in a work that continued to explore the physical discomfort of the body.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31It was an artistic blind date, yep.
0:30:31 > 0:30:35The gallery, the artist Steve McQueen, requires the presence of,
0:30:35 > 0:30:38it wasn't quite that but almost, requires the presence of Charlotte Rampling,
0:30:38 > 0:30:42and would like to know her or get to know her or something,
0:30:42 > 0:30:44because he might have a future project in mind.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46Something like that.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48SHE LAUGHS
0:30:49 > 0:30:54He had a fascination with her face,
0:30:54 > 0:30:56just as an actress.
0:30:56 > 0:31:01And also I think he was really attracted to her bravery,
0:31:01 > 0:31:05she has done a lot of art installation work
0:31:05 > 0:31:06for a number of artists.
0:31:06 > 0:31:11Erm...and a lot of people aren't brave enough to do that.
0:31:12 > 0:31:16It's a piece about resistance to aggression.
0:31:16 > 0:31:19And it all happens just on the eye.
0:31:19 > 0:31:23All you see is a very close-up of my eye.
0:31:23 > 0:31:26And Steve...
0:31:26 > 0:31:30- tries to poke a finger into my eye. - SHE LAUGHS
0:31:30 > 0:31:34And it's about my resistance to that from of aggression.
0:31:34 > 0:31:40We were shooting it hand-held on 16mm on a macro lens
0:31:40 > 0:31:46and...something electric was happening between the two of them.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49And even, you know, as the operator of the camera,
0:31:49 > 0:31:53I could sense this amazing charge.
0:31:53 > 0:31:57And I think that's what you see in the installation.
0:31:57 > 0:32:00Steve always takes these things and turns them into something else
0:32:00 > 0:32:04and builds an emotion out of the most unlikely images.
0:32:04 > 0:32:06I think with Steve's work
0:32:06 > 0:32:09you're really not meant to sit back and have an easy ride,
0:32:09 > 0:32:13you've got to be working, if you like, as a viewer as well.
0:32:13 > 0:32:17You need to be sort of actively engaged in analysing
0:32:17 > 0:32:19why something looks the way it is,
0:32:19 > 0:32:22why it's been shot in that particular way.
0:32:22 > 0:32:24You know, he wants to unsettle you.
0:32:24 > 0:32:27You know, you're not going to sort of sit back
0:32:27 > 0:32:31and just ease into a Steve McQueen cinematic experience,
0:32:31 > 0:32:35whether it's one made for an art gallery or one made for a cinema.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38GUNFIRE
0:32:38 > 0:32:41In 2003, during the time of the Iraqi war,
0:32:41 > 0:32:46McQueen was made the official artist for the Imperial War Museum.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50The result was this coffin-shaped box
0:32:50 > 0:32:52containing a haunting series of stamps
0:32:52 > 0:32:56that commemorated the fallen, called Queen And Country.
0:32:59 > 0:33:03The installation led to my first meeting with McQueen in 2008.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07I went to Iraq...and it was a situation
0:33:07 > 0:33:11where they only gave me six days to make a piece
0:33:11 > 0:33:13or to investigate and to make a piece.
0:33:13 > 0:33:18- Not been with the military before, not been in Iraq before, not been in a war zone before.- Yeah.
0:33:18 > 0:33:21I was sort of thrown into a situation where, you know,
0:33:21 > 0:33:26I had to acclimatise, and within that time it was time to go home.
0:33:26 > 0:33:30So, it was a case of really being embedded, where someone is sort of holding your hand all the time
0:33:30 > 0:33:33and monitoring what you saw and what you couldn't see.
0:33:33 > 0:33:35I imagine I was a bit of an irritant for them,
0:33:35 > 0:33:38but it was one of those situations where I came back very frustrated.
0:33:38 > 0:33:42And therefore what happened after that was that this idea came about
0:33:42 > 0:33:46where I thought, OK, I wanted to go back but I couldn't
0:33:46 > 0:33:49because basically things had taken a turn for the worst.
0:33:49 > 0:33:52- You know, people being kidnapped. I couldn't go back.- Sure.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55So, what happened was that this stamp idea came into my head.
0:33:55 > 0:33:59And I was actually posting a stamp, I was actually paying my taxes,
0:33:59 > 0:34:03and putting a stamp on an envelope of Vincent van Gogh.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05And then... It just happened.
0:34:05 > 0:34:09I thought, "Ah, stamps, soldiers, war letters."
0:34:09 > 0:34:12The narrative of that, and that was the trigger, really.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16What I'm trying to do is enter people's psyche in a way
0:34:16 > 0:34:18which doesn't come through the media,
0:34:18 > 0:34:20which isn't about newspapers, TV, radio, the Internet.
0:34:20 > 0:34:26It comes through people's psyche in a much more everyday, tangible sort of existence.
0:34:26 > 0:34:32So, in some ways it's the whole idea of it going through the bloodstream of the country as such.
0:34:34 > 0:34:36When Steve was sent to Iraq
0:34:36 > 0:34:39as the Royal artist, obviously we would have expected a film
0:34:39 > 0:34:42to come out because that's what everybody thought would happen,
0:34:42 > 0:34:44either a film or a video piece.
0:34:44 > 0:34:48And I think once more, you know, as very often,
0:34:48 > 0:34:52he is full of surprises and he always does unexpected things.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55One can never really predict what he does next.
0:35:02 > 0:35:032008 was also the year
0:35:03 > 0:35:07McQueen brought out his first feature film, Hunger.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10Based on the story of Irish hunger striker Bobby Sands,
0:35:10 > 0:35:13who starved himself to death,
0:35:13 > 0:35:16the film won him Cannes' prestigious Camera d'Or for a first feature
0:35:16 > 0:35:18and also a BAFTA.
0:35:19 > 0:35:25I think it's an extraordinary first feature, but tell me about that subject matter.
0:35:25 > 0:35:29Bearing in mind the other projects you've worked on, why that subject matter?
0:35:29 > 0:35:31It was one of those situations where 1981 was a big turning point for me.
0:35:31 > 0:35:34Tottenham won the FA Cup, which was fantastic,
0:35:34 > 0:35:36a big turning point in my life for sure.
0:35:38 > 0:35:40And then there was the Brixton riots,
0:35:40 > 0:35:43which was another sort of twist in a way.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46And then obviously this guy called Bobby Sands,
0:35:46 > 0:35:49who appeared on the TV screen with a number underneath his image
0:35:49 > 0:35:51which obviously changed every day.
0:35:51 > 0:35:55There was that awareness of some guy who, through not eating,
0:35:55 > 0:35:58was having a voice in one way.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01So, at 11 years old, it was almost like an awakening for me,
0:36:01 > 0:36:03finding out who I was, what I was,
0:36:03 > 0:36:08almost like a real sort of... The outside world looked different.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11I mean, a tree looked different after those kind of events.
0:36:11 > 0:36:15It seems to me, in a rather crude way in my interpretation,
0:36:15 > 0:36:17that there are obvious parallels that one would make
0:36:17 > 0:36:19with the post-9/11 world.
0:36:19 > 0:36:25I mean, it is impossible now to look at a film of somebody imprisoned being maltreated
0:36:25 > 0:36:28and somebody who is willing to effectively commit suicide
0:36:28 > 0:36:29for their cause
0:36:29 > 0:36:31without drawing comparisons
0:36:31 > 0:36:33with what's happened in the world since 9/11.
0:36:33 > 0:36:37That's the whole idea, that's the whole beauty of making this film,
0:36:37 > 0:36:40that it is about 1981 but it is about now.
0:36:40 > 0:36:46You know, people tend to forget what happened in a British prison cell 27 years ago.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49People talk about Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib,
0:36:49 > 0:36:52but in Her Majesty's prison in Belfast
0:36:52 > 0:36:54there were other things going on.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57It's always something happening in a distant country
0:36:57 > 0:37:00and actually, you know what, it happened right in our own back yard.
0:37:00 > 0:37:03You've been working within the medium of film throughout your career
0:37:03 > 0:37:06from the early installations to now the feature.
0:37:06 > 0:37:10I mean, has it all fed naturally into the next project?
0:37:10 > 0:37:13Erm...the only way I can really answer question
0:37:13 > 0:37:17is the fact that when I was in art school I wanted to be in film school,
0:37:17 > 0:37:20and when I was in film school I wanted to be in art school.
0:37:20 > 0:37:24Because I was at Goldsmiths before and then when I left I went to NYU,
0:37:24 > 0:37:27I did grad film, but I left after three-and-a-half months because I hated it.
0:37:27 > 0:37:34So, every time... I mean, it's not so linear as far as a progression,
0:37:34 > 0:37:37it's all about the idea rather than the medium.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40It's not about a camera, a big camera or a small camera,
0:37:40 > 0:37:43or a paintbrush or a wooden sculpture or whatever, it's all about the idea.
0:37:43 > 0:37:47One of the most striking elements of Hunger is a 17-minute scene
0:37:47 > 0:37:52between Bobby Sands and a priest filmed in one long, continuous take.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54I want to know whether your intent
0:37:54 > 0:37:56is just purely to commit suicide here?
0:38:00 > 0:38:03You want me to argue about the morality of what I'm about to do
0:38:03 > 0:38:06and whether it's really suicide or not?
0:38:06 > 0:38:09For one, you're calling it suicide, I call it murder,
0:38:09 > 0:38:12and that's just another wee difference between us two.
0:38:12 > 0:38:14We're both Catholic men, both Republicans,
0:38:14 > 0:38:19but while you were poaching salmon in lovely Kilrea, we were being burnt out of our house in Rathcoole.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22Similar in many ways, but life and experience has focused our beliefs differently.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24- You understand me?- I understand.
0:38:24 > 0:38:29I have my belief and in all its simplicity that is the most powerful thing.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32Why did you choose to do that scene as a single take?
0:38:32 > 0:38:33It's like watching a tightrope walker,
0:38:33 > 0:38:35the further you get into that scene the more you think,
0:38:35 > 0:38:39"How many times did they have to do this to get it right?"
0:38:39 > 0:38:41- I mean, it's one single take.- Yeah.
0:38:41 > 0:38:45And, I mean, Bobby smokes three cigarettes during the course of it.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48- Hmm.- It's like setting yourself the most difficult task.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51"I know, we'll just do that whole scene in one take."
0:38:51 > 0:38:52How I structured it was this.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55Often it's the case, in a conversation like this,
0:38:55 > 0:38:59a two-shot in a movie, the camera is on one person
0:38:59 > 0:39:01and then it cuts to another person.
0:39:01 > 0:39:05So what it is is the conversation is not with the two people
0:39:05 > 0:39:08having their conversation, the conversation is with the audience.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10- Yes.- So what I wanted to do, I didn't want that,
0:39:10 > 0:39:12I wanted a situation where the conversation was with the two people.
0:39:12 > 0:39:16By having two people talking to each other intimately
0:39:16 > 0:39:19and in some ways being a bit disregarding of the audience,
0:39:19 > 0:39:23what happens is the audiences lean in more and they listen more carefully.
0:39:23 > 0:39:27At the same time, they know they're not supposed to be there because it's an intimate conversation,
0:39:27 > 0:39:32so everything becomes much more sharp, listening gets sharper, vision gets sharper.
0:39:33 > 0:39:37So, in order to play that central role of Bobby Sands,
0:39:37 > 0:39:39Michael Fassbender had at one point...
0:39:39 > 0:39:43you had to stop the production so that he could massively lose weight.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46Tell me about what happened, how did that process work?
0:39:46 > 0:39:50Well, we stop the production for two-and-a-half months,
0:39:50 > 0:39:54and Michael took himself to LA, I think around Venice Beach,
0:39:54 > 0:39:58and he went onto the situation of losing the weight.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00We had a doctor with him, of course.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02So it was a medically-assisted fast?
0:40:02 > 0:40:05And then when Michael came back, of course, onto the set
0:40:05 > 0:40:08we were all anxious, "Michael's coming and we don't know how he's coming."
0:40:08 > 0:40:11And he walked in the door and it was just...
0:40:11 > 0:40:16His sort of hollows here had sunk...and he looked very ill.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18I was quite concerned.
0:40:18 > 0:40:23Erm...but he had this sort of...
0:40:23 > 0:40:26Yeah, he was ready, you know?
0:40:26 > 0:40:30He was ready. It's almost like, "Yes, now I'm here. I'm ready. I'm there."
0:40:46 > 0:40:51The Hunger was probably one of the most haunting experiences I think I've had with watching a film.
0:40:53 > 0:40:58And the way he constructed the film too, which was before he really was getting into film,
0:40:58 > 0:41:02so for me it was in-between like a video installation and a film.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05It was... And it really got it.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07I don't know why things get it but they do and he got it.
0:41:19 > 0:41:23McQueen cast Fassbender again in Shame, his second feature,
0:41:23 > 0:41:26which explores the subject of sex addiction.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31It left such an impression on me
0:41:31 > 0:41:33that when I was in New York on the subway,
0:41:33 > 0:41:35I was so afraid to look at anyone.
0:41:35 > 0:41:40I was just so afraid, cos I was like, "Oh, I don't know what you're thinking and I don't want to know."
0:41:40 > 0:41:44So, that was a memorable, memorable movie.
0:41:44 > 0:41:48And, again, Steve doesn't shy away from the hard subjects.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51And we all know that these things are going on, you know, and we don't face them.
0:41:51 > 0:41:56And he does, you know. And he just doesn't look away.
0:41:56 > 0:41:59In Shame, set in New York,
0:41:59 > 0:42:01Fassbender plays a troubled loner, Brandon,
0:42:01 > 0:42:05and Carey Mulligan his equally anguished sister, Sissy.
0:42:05 > 0:42:09Look, you get the sofa and you get your arse off it before I leave every morning.
0:42:09 > 0:42:13- I know. I promise I will. Mwah! - OK. OK. OK.- Mwah!
0:42:13 > 0:42:15SHE SIGHS
0:42:15 > 0:42:17- We leave in 15.- OK!
0:42:17 > 0:42:20The conversations around Shame came out of so many different things,
0:42:20 > 0:42:23but, you know, primarily it came out of our interest in how people
0:42:23 > 0:42:28find intimacy in the 21st-century when you can Facebook and tweet
0:42:28 > 0:42:31and grind and twerk and do whatever you need to do,
0:42:31 > 0:42:34you know, to connect and have relationships.
0:42:34 > 0:42:39And yet you don't necessarily have the day-to-day normal conversational interaction
0:42:39 > 0:42:41that perhaps our parents had, or the dating system.
0:42:41 > 0:42:46'In 2011, I met McQueen to talk about Shame,
0:42:46 > 0:42:50'a film which, despite its difficult subject matter, received widespread acclaim,
0:42:50 > 0:42:53'particularly for Fassbender's central performance.'
0:42:53 > 0:42:55Wait, you'll see.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57Tell me what you meant by calling it Shame?
0:42:57 > 0:43:00What happened was when we spoke to people with sex addiction
0:43:00 > 0:43:03was what they would do was go on these sexual escapades as such
0:43:03 > 0:43:07and...when they would come out the other end...
0:43:07 > 0:43:10what would happen is there would be a sense of self-hate,
0:43:10 > 0:43:14of self-loathing and ultimately shame.
0:43:14 > 0:43:18And this word "shame" kept coming up again and again and again through our interviews.
0:43:18 > 0:43:22There's a key confrontation between Brandon and Sissy at one point
0:43:22 > 0:43:26- in which she says, "We're not bad people but we come from a bad place."- Right.
0:43:26 > 0:43:28One of the things that I admire very much about the film
0:43:28 > 0:43:32is that you're never explicit about what that bad place is.
0:43:32 > 0:43:36Tell me what you can about what that line meant?
0:43:36 > 0:43:42I wanted to make their past familiar rather than mysterious.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45I think when people come to the cinema and sit on these seats...
0:43:45 > 0:43:49they bring their history, they bring their luggage, they bring their baggage with them.
0:43:49 > 0:43:54And when they're presented with something on screen, they have an idea of what it could possibly be
0:43:54 > 0:43:58or what happened or what has happened to Sissy and Brandon,
0:43:58 > 0:44:00all the possibilities.
0:44:00 > 0:44:03And I think that's much more exciting for them and, you know,
0:44:03 > 0:44:06much more sort of close to the audience.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09I could have told a long yarn about, "OK, this is what happened
0:44:09 > 0:44:14"and this and this and that and the other," but it makes it so specific.
0:44:14 > 0:44:19And also I didn't want it to be a let-out for Brandon.
0:44:19 > 0:44:23- You mean like an explanation? - Precisely, for what he does in the movie.
0:44:23 > 0:44:27I mean, you know, it's their past. And again when we meet people in our lives,
0:44:27 > 0:44:30we know nothing about them other than what they present.
0:44:30 > 0:44:33- I'm David.- Sissy.- It is a pleasure to meet you.- Nice to meet you.
0:44:33 > 0:44:37- I think you're absolutely fantastic and you look great in the dress too. Please, sit down.- Thank you.
0:44:37 > 0:44:42The actual script is really the last 60 pages of the film,
0:44:42 > 0:44:45cos we actually threw away the first 40 pages.
0:44:45 > 0:44:49And, you know, I was always had this idea that we need to see Brandon go to sex therapy,
0:44:49 > 0:44:51and we need to see him in a therapist's room,
0:44:51 > 0:44:55and I want the tap-tap-tap of a fan going, and I want him at the end redeemed.
0:44:55 > 0:44:58And he goes into the therapy and we start to understand why he is the way he is.
0:44:58 > 0:45:02And Steve was really good about going, "No, I don't think we need that,
0:45:02 > 0:45:04"I think we just pull it right back to the central story,
0:45:04 > 0:45:08"which is a man who is driven by his addiction and destroyed by his addiction."
0:45:12 > 0:45:14The central theme that runs all the way through the film
0:45:14 > 0:45:20is that you have fleshly contact, but he's psychologically more and more withdrawn
0:45:20 > 0:45:22the more contact he appears to have.
0:45:22 > 0:45:25He can only do what he can do as long as it's completely objectified
0:45:25 > 0:45:27and there isn't any compassion.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30Yes, as long as he's in control. As long as he's in control.
0:45:30 > 0:45:31I don't think he wants to let anyone in.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34I think to fall in love with someone or to be in love with someone
0:45:34 > 0:45:38is, you know, pretty brave. You know, that person could break your heart.
0:45:38 > 0:45:42I think for him, somewhere along the line in his life,
0:45:42 > 0:45:44he didn't want that to happen
0:45:44 > 0:45:48or didn't want that possibility of being vulnerable.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53There are sort of recurring themes,
0:45:53 > 0:46:00these long extended shots are something that Steve within his artwork has explored extensively.
0:46:00 > 0:46:05And that has come over into the film work as well.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08Particularly in Shame when Michael goes for a run.
0:46:08 > 0:46:12You know, what's the point of the edit in that case?
0:46:12 > 0:46:15There's no need, the character is off running.
0:46:15 > 0:46:21By just simply following him we are, you know, we're observers.
0:46:21 > 0:46:26And we can start to project what might be happening in his mind
0:46:26 > 0:46:31as opposed to being distracted by a series of edits.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35I just love the way he sees the world
0:46:35 > 0:46:38and I love the way he somehow seems to communicate things to me
0:46:38 > 0:46:42without ever speaking, and I don't know how he does it.
0:46:42 > 0:46:44I think he's just...
0:46:44 > 0:46:46There's just a huge truth to him as a man
0:46:46 > 0:46:49and I think somehow that's what he tries to pursue in whatever he's doing.
0:46:49 > 0:46:52I think that's what people respond to in this work
0:46:52 > 0:46:56is the kind of ultimate...fearless desire
0:46:56 > 0:46:59to point the camera towards the truth.
0:46:59 > 0:47:03ALL HUM SPIRITUAL
0:47:05 > 0:47:09Despite its scale, the sense of intimacy of Shame and Hunger
0:47:09 > 0:47:12is retained by 12 Years A Slave,
0:47:12 > 0:47:15a modern epic with painstaking attention to period detail
0:47:15 > 0:47:19and a large cast led by Chiwetel Ejiofor.
0:47:19 > 0:47:23Tell me about working with Chiwetel. I mean, it's an extraordinary performance from him.
0:47:23 > 0:47:27He's done great work before, I think anyway, but tell me about him,
0:47:27 > 0:47:30how you cast him and how you discussed the role with him?
0:47:30 > 0:47:33Well, I asked when I rang him on the phone.
0:47:33 > 0:47:36I said, "Have you read the script?" He said, "No."
0:47:36 > 0:47:38He said, "No." I said, "What?!"
0:47:38 > 0:47:41"I just offered you..." He said, "No."
0:47:41 > 0:47:44- Because?- I think because, as he has said before,
0:47:44 > 0:47:48it was like having the role that you've been waiting for all your life
0:47:48 > 0:47:52and this thing landing on your lap and...him being paralysed,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55and him saying to himself, "Well, I can't do this."
0:47:55 > 0:47:57I'm not filming that.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01'I was just very aware, first of all, of the responsibility of it.'
0:48:01 > 0:48:04You know, the responsibility of telling Solomon Northup's story.
0:48:04 > 0:48:09- Because it's a real story and an important story?- Yeah, it's this man's life and his experience.
0:48:09 > 0:48:13There's a responsibility to him, to his descendants, you know,
0:48:13 > 0:48:15there was a responsibility to the overall idea.
0:48:15 > 0:48:21I'd never seen a story like this before, I'd never read a story that was so deep inside this experience.
0:48:21 > 0:48:26And I was shocked by it, I was compelled by it obviously, but I was also...
0:48:26 > 0:48:29It took me a moment, it took me some pause.
0:48:29 > 0:48:33So we worked, we worked together, we talked a lot about...
0:48:33 > 0:48:37Valentino, Buster Keaton, silent movie stars.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40Because what's interesting about them is their face, their eyes.
0:48:40 > 0:48:44I concentrated on his eyes all the time. Eyes, eyes, eyes,
0:48:44 > 0:48:48because he has to communicate something which is in him to the audience.
0:48:48 > 0:48:51I mean, you are Solomon Northup as the audience member, you are him,
0:48:51 > 0:48:55so when you see his face you have to recognise yourself somehow or what he's thinking.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58Cos oftentimes he can't express who he is really at all,
0:48:58 > 0:49:02he can't sort do certain things, but you have to feel it.
0:49:02 > 0:49:06I remember so distinctly him walking onto the set for the first day.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09So everyone was fairly relaxed and when the camera turned over,
0:49:09 > 0:49:13Chiwetel turned it on and it was electric!
0:49:13 > 0:49:17And you could see every other actor in the room suddenly pricking up and thinking,
0:49:17 > 0:49:23"Oh, my God! We're going to have to act our socks off here now just to keep up with him."
0:49:26 > 0:49:29Days ago I was with my family
0:49:29 > 0:49:32- HE SIGHS - In my home.
0:49:34 > 0:49:36Now you tell me all that's lost.
0:49:38 > 0:49:41Tell no-one who I am, that's the way to survive?
0:49:45 > 0:49:47Well, I don't want to survive...
0:49:48 > 0:49:50..I want to live.
0:49:50 > 0:49:53One of the crucial things about his performance is, of course,
0:49:53 > 0:49:56- the stance and the stances that he adopts during the film.- Yeah. Uh-huh.
0:49:56 > 0:50:01Yeah. I mean, at the very beginning we did a lot of test shots of him in his costume,
0:50:01 > 0:50:03the various costumes he had in the film.
0:50:03 > 0:50:08And it was a woman called Paddy Norris, who's an amazing costume designer,
0:50:08 > 0:50:12and she used to take soil samples from each plantation and match them with the costumes.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14It's just the level of detail.
0:50:14 > 0:50:19So, what happened was that when he put clothes on, he was standing in different ways.
0:50:19 > 0:50:22It was kind of wonderful to look at cos it was one of those things
0:50:22 > 0:50:26which occurred through the clothes and the attire. "OK, what am I wearing now?
0:50:26 > 0:50:30"Where am I in this journey?" And through that the stances would change.
0:50:30 > 0:50:35Solomon's story is a nightmarish reversal of the American dream
0:50:35 > 0:50:38as he goes from free man to slave.
0:50:38 > 0:50:40CHAINS RATTLE
0:50:51 > 0:50:52SOLOMON GROANS
0:50:54 > 0:50:59It's all right, Solomon. There's no shame in it. No shame at all.
0:51:04 > 0:51:09We identify with him as a person who's been captured and taken away from his family.
0:51:09 > 0:51:13We as the audience identify with him, so we move along...
0:51:13 > 0:51:16we move along the narrative with him.
0:51:16 > 0:51:21And that's Solomon's crutch in the movie, we are actually in the audience helping him,
0:51:21 > 0:51:23so when he doesn't say anything,
0:51:23 > 0:51:27when he's looking at us, we are him filling in the blanks.
0:51:27 > 0:51:30So the whole idea of what's happening inside him is happening to us,
0:51:30 > 0:51:33we understand what's going on in his head because other people don't.
0:51:33 > 0:51:37And that's what helps the narrative very much, the audience.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40Without the audience, of course, he sort of falls flat.
0:51:40 > 0:51:46Solomon's chief tormentor is the plantation owner Edwin Epps, played by Michael Fassbender.
0:51:51 > 0:51:54- You come here.- Master... - I said come here!
0:51:54 > 0:51:56I brought her back just like you...
0:51:56 > 0:52:00Michael Fassbender is now in the third feature in which you've directed him,
0:52:00 > 0:52:06you have a very sort of close relationship, you've done incredibly intimate and intense work with him.
0:52:06 > 0:52:10How did you and he talk about that character?
0:52:10 > 0:52:16You know, we talked about Epps as a person who is in love with Patsey,
0:52:16 > 0:52:18he's totally besotted with her.
0:52:18 > 0:52:22So we talked about it in a way that he...
0:52:22 > 0:52:26As a character who doesn't understand his love for this woman,
0:52:26 > 0:52:28because she's a slave.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30You know, she's a black woman.
0:52:30 > 0:52:36So he had to deal with grappling with that situation of him being in love with this slave
0:52:36 > 0:52:38as well as him being who he is.
0:52:38 > 0:52:41And how he deals with it is obviously...
0:52:41 > 0:52:45through trying to destroy his love for her.
0:52:45 > 0:52:49And he tries to do that by trying to destroy her in an unfortunate way.
0:52:49 > 0:52:51So it's very twisted.
0:52:51 > 0:52:55- I went to master Shaw's plantation. - Ah, you admit it?
0:52:55 > 0:52:58Yes. Really. And you know why?
0:52:58 > 0:53:01I got this from Mistress Shaw.
0:53:01 > 0:53:05Mistress Epps won't even grab me no soap to clean with.
0:53:05 > 0:53:10- SHE SOBS - I stink so much I make myself gag!
0:53:12 > 0:53:18500lb of cotton day in, day out!
0:53:18 > 0:53:20More than any man here!
0:53:20 > 0:53:22And for that I will be clean!
0:53:22 > 0:53:25And what about Patsey?
0:53:25 > 0:53:29Well, Patsey...that was Lupita Nyong'o.
0:53:29 > 0:53:32It was like searching for Scarlett O'Hara, it really was.
0:53:32 > 0:53:35It was over 1,000 girls we auditioned for that part.
0:53:35 > 0:53:39It had to be someone who was new, it had to be someone we had to find cos there's no-one like that.
0:53:39 > 0:53:41So it was a long and hard hunt.
0:53:41 > 0:53:47And we found this girl who had not graduated from Yale yet
0:53:47 > 0:53:49and she was just amazing.
0:53:49 > 0:53:53And that was it...a star is born.
0:53:53 > 0:53:54SHE HUMS
0:53:56 > 0:54:03I had to recognise that I had the privilege of doing this character
0:54:03 > 0:54:05in an imaginary world.
0:54:05 > 0:54:07And the woman who I was representing had no choice,
0:54:07 > 0:54:09that this was actually her life,
0:54:09 > 0:54:12these atrocities actually happened to her.
0:54:12 > 0:54:16And that always just grounded me and reminded me of what's important,
0:54:16 > 0:54:19that I couldn't sentimentalise the experience
0:54:19 > 0:54:23and I had to get to it in a very practical way.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26That Patsey was working through her pain not wallowing in it.
0:54:29 > 0:54:35In 12 Years A Slave, McQueen explores the moral ambiguity that slave owners faced.
0:54:35 > 0:54:41Benedict Cumberbatch plays Solomon's first and more sympathetic owner, Master Ford.
0:54:43 > 0:54:45You must know that I'm not a slave.
0:54:45 > 0:54:47I cannot hear that.
0:54:47 > 0:54:51- Before I came to you I was a free man.- Aye, and I saved your life!
0:54:52 > 0:54:56One of the most conflicted characters is that played by Benedict Cumberbatch
0:54:56 > 0:54:59and there's a line about, "He's a good man. No, he's a slaver."
0:54:59 > 0:55:02And the film is full of those contradictions,
0:55:02 > 0:55:06it goes out of its way to not paint people with simple strokes.
0:55:06 > 0:55:09I think that's one of the powerful things about this story
0:55:09 > 0:55:14that it's about human beings, you know, who are forced into circumstances together.
0:55:14 > 0:55:17You know Ford, that Benedict plays brilliantly,
0:55:17 > 0:55:21is somebody who understands that it's all wrong, you know,
0:55:21 > 0:55:26that he has, as he describes in the film, he has debts to be mindful of.
0:55:26 > 0:55:32And...he allows himself to behave in this way, to be part of this system,
0:55:32 > 0:55:37because it's a system to which he owes his entire reality.
0:55:37 > 0:55:40And so why would he break it? You know, how can he break it?
0:55:40 > 0:55:45It's a very strange character and I think he's maybe the worst of all three of them,
0:55:45 > 0:55:50because he...he's not...he knows what's going on but he does nothing about it.
0:55:50 > 0:55:54But at the same time he's in that environment where it's very difficult to fight back,
0:55:54 > 0:55:57it's very difficult to say anything against it.
0:55:57 > 0:56:01But at the same time he's...I think he's one of the biggest villains, actually.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04HAMMERING
0:56:04 > 0:56:07I thought I told you to commence to putting on clappers?
0:56:07 > 0:56:11McQueen takes the audience out of familiar cinematic territory,
0:56:11 > 0:56:15he is candid in his portrayal of difficult subjects.
0:56:15 > 0:56:18It can be uncomfortable viewing.
0:56:18 > 0:56:23- Goddamn you! I told you!- I did as instructed.
0:56:23 > 0:56:27If there's something wrong, it's wrong with the instruction!
0:56:27 > 0:56:34You bastard! You got goddamn...black bastard!
0:56:34 > 0:56:36Strip your clothes.
0:56:38 > 0:56:41- Strip.- I will not.
0:56:41 > 0:56:47Do you think there's a comparison between this story and your interest in it and something like Hunger,
0:56:47 > 0:56:51which again is about somebody suffering great physical pain
0:56:51 > 0:56:55and anguish in the pursuit of a cause?
0:56:55 > 0:56:58Well, you know what, I've only made three films.
0:56:58 > 0:57:01Thank goodness I've made three films. My goodness, I've made three films!
0:57:01 > 0:57:06I've only made three films, so the next film, hopefully, or whatever's next, will be something else.
0:57:06 > 0:57:10I don't have any kind of journey that I'm on in this way,
0:57:10 > 0:57:13it's just, I don't know...
0:57:13 > 0:57:18I think, you know, you're a critic, you want to tie things up neatly.
0:57:18 > 0:57:20"OK, he's this or he's that."
0:57:20 > 0:57:23But I don't know what I am yet, because I'm just starting.
0:57:23 > 0:57:27You know, I've been lucky enough to have made three films, that's all.
0:57:27 > 0:57:32What would you like people to take away from seeing 12 Years A Slave?
0:57:35 > 0:57:38I think it's each individual person's responsibility in a way,
0:57:38 > 0:57:42not necessarily about this particular subject of slavery,
0:57:42 > 0:57:44but in any subject in who you are, what you do today.
0:57:44 > 0:57:49But one of the great things about cinema is that it does have a very populist and lasting effect.
0:57:49 > 0:57:53Cinema is the living, breathing storytelling of the day, isn't it?
0:57:53 > 0:57:55Yeah. Look, all I hope...
0:57:55 > 0:58:02All I could hope is that people have two minutes to think about their surroundings
0:58:02 > 0:58:05and what they can do about it, that's all, end of story.
0:58:05 > 0:58:07You know, we're powerless,
0:58:07 > 0:58:10all we can do is try and do something for five minutes and then we die, that's all.
0:58:10 > 0:58:14So you've got to always hope that's about it, end of story.
0:58:14 > 0:58:16I think the movie's really great, I wish you all the best success with it,
0:58:16 > 0:58:19and I look forward to whatever you do next.
0:58:19 > 0:58:21- And congratulations.- Cheers, mate. Thank you very much.
0:58:21 > 0:58:23# Row, Johnny, row
0:58:23 > 0:58:26# Row, Johnny, row
0:58:26 > 0:58:29# My soul arise in heaven, Lord
0:58:29 > 0:58:32# When you and Johnny row Hallelujah!
0:58:32 > 0:58:35# Row, Johnny, row
0:58:35 > 0:58:38# Row, Johnny, row
0:58:38 > 0:58:41# My soul arise in heaven, Lord
0:58:41 > 0:58:44# When you and Johnny row
0:58:44 > 0:58:47# Everybody say Row, Johnny, row
0:58:47 > 0:58:50# Row, Johnny, row
0:58:50 > 0:58:53# My soul arise in heaven, Lord...#