0:00:06 > 0:00:09# Chim chim-in-ey, chim chim-in-ey # Chim chim...
0:00:09 > 0:00:15In 1964 the Disney film Mary Poppins was released to worldwide acclaim.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17#..chim chim cher-oo
0:00:17 > 0:00:20# Good luck will rub off when I shakes 'ands with you
0:00:20 > 0:00:22# Oh, blow me a kiss...
0:00:23 > 0:00:25# And that's lucky too... #
0:00:26 > 0:00:28The film told of a magical world
0:00:28 > 0:00:30where chimney sweeps are happier than bankers,
0:00:30 > 0:00:32where you can jump into living pictures on the pavement.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Or should that be sidewalk?
0:00:34 > 0:00:37It made an international star of Julie Andrews overnight,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40and it changed forever our concept of what a nanny is,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42or should be.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44And the songs... Who could forget the songs?
0:00:45 > 0:00:47# Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
0:00:48 > 0:00:51# Even though the sound of it is something quite atrocious...
0:00:51 > 0:00:53But one person hated the film's cheery tone...
0:00:55 > 0:00:57# Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious #
0:00:58 > 0:01:01..the author of the Mary Poppins books, PL Travers.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07In contrast with the practically perfect world of the movie,
0:01:07 > 0:01:10her own life was complex and troubled.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15As a single woman, PL Travers adopted a baby.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18Who knew that was allowed in the 1930s?
0:01:19 > 0:01:24But it all went horribly wrong and she nearly tore her own family apart.
0:01:35 > 0:01:3950 years later, the Disney Corporation has made another movie about HER.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42Would PL Travers have liked this one?
0:01:42 > 0:01:44Will it set the record straight?
0:01:44 > 0:01:48Can her bumpy, quirky, controversial life story be told on film at all?
0:01:50 > 0:01:53All I knew is, those guys can dance!
0:01:53 > 0:01:56Or is it too strange for Hollywood, even now?
0:01:59 > 0:02:01Good luck. Thank you, everybody.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16Everyone's heard of Mary Poppins,
0:02:16 > 0:02:18but far fewer can name its author.
0:02:19 > 0:02:24Many have no idea of the real origins of the world's most famous nanny.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30Mary Poppins began life as a book in 1934.
0:02:35 > 0:02:40This atmospheric cottage in Sussex was the rented home of PL Travers,
0:02:40 > 0:02:42who had just turned 35.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45When she was younger, she had wanted to be an actress.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49This is her playing Titania in A Midsummer Night's Dream.
0:02:51 > 0:02:56But she moved on to become a well-established poet and art critic.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Now, she was starting her first novel.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06At the time, she was cohabiting with a friend, Madge Burnand.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11Biographers have speculated they were romantically involved,
0:03:11 > 0:03:16and that PL Travers had unconventional romances with men and women throughout her life,
0:03:19 > 0:03:21but she never wrote or talked about this.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32In her writing, PL Travers created a more conventional family, the Banks family.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36She chose as her subject one of the great English preoccupations -
0:03:36 > 0:03:38nursery life -
0:03:38 > 0:03:43a relatively untapped seam, the relationship between a nanny and her charges.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49"Mary Poppins' eyes were fixed upon him,
0:03:49 > 0:03:55and Michael suddenly discovered that you could not look at Mary Poppins, and disobey her.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58There was something strange and extraordinary about her,
0:03:58 > 0:04:03something that was frightening, yet at the same time, most exciting."
0:04:05 > 0:04:07I like the cottagey-ness of this room.
0:04:07 > 0:04:11I went to Golden Eye once where Ian Fleming used to write, and it was very glamorous.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14You could imagine that's where you create stories of spies drinking martinis,
0:04:14 > 0:04:16and seducing beautiful women,
0:04:16 > 0:04:18but this feels just the place for stories
0:04:18 > 0:04:21about children creeping out of bed at night and having adventures.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24You can see sort of fields and sky,
0:04:24 > 0:04:29so there's a sense of, you know, what lies out there beyond our little world.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32It's quite Poppins-y. I like it. I'm glad it was written here.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37Despite the book being quintessentially English,
0:04:37 > 0:04:41PL Travers was actually not English at all.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45She was Australian,
0:04:45 > 0:04:50born and brought up in this small town in Queensland at the turn of the last century.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55And her real name wasn't Pamela Travers.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57She was christened Helen Lyndon Goff.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04Her father worked in the town bank, just like the father in Mary Poppins.
0:05:06 > 0:05:08But there were key differences.
0:05:08 > 0:05:14Unlike Mr Banks in her story, PL Travers' father failed as a banker, and he struggled with drink.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17He died young, in his early 40s,
0:05:17 > 0:05:19almost certainly of alcoholism.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21PL Travers was just seven years old.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27Her mother found it increasingly hard to cope,
0:05:27 > 0:05:31and shortly afterwards, attempted suicide.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38PL Travers always claimed her turbulent upbringing had little influence on the book.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43"I don't know that it is based on my personal life.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47I think Mr Banks is a little bit like my father.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50And Mrs Banks, in her most flustered,
0:05:50 > 0:05:53is perhaps a little bit like my mother.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55But really I don't think it is based on my childhood."
0:05:58 > 0:06:01But at the heart of the book was the character of Mary Poppins herself,
0:06:01 > 0:06:07the clipped, strict, but ultimately mysterious nanny who had blown in on an east wind.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19It's hard to find a modern-day book or article about hiring a nanny
0:06:19 > 0:06:21that doesn't mention Mary Poppins.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27At Norland College in Bath, they train nannies in the art, or is it a science -
0:06:27 > 0:06:29- it's certainly a mystery -
0:06:29 > 0:06:32of looking after babies and children.
0:06:38 > 0:06:44We are going to show you the old way to do it with the blankets and the sheet.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47- OK.- The seam is always away from the child.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49You need to make sure there is so much room for tucking in.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52No sleeping with a hat on, no pillows for the baby. It needs to be completely flat.
0:06:52 > 0:06:57What about my granny's old rule - no cats in the nursery, or the child will be hairy?
0:06:59 > 0:07:02We definitely wouldn't advise any pets in the nursery.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05No, because it can make people grow fur like a cat. My granny knew this.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07It's not written about.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12Because it's 2013, they need extra skills.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16Tae Kwon Do.
0:07:16 > 0:07:17Kidnap defence.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20Do not let go of the pushchair.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24And how to escape paparazzi in a high-speed car chase.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27Roadblock, roadblock. Paparazzi, quick, into reverse!
0:07:27 > 0:07:33Maybe if PL Travers were writing today, Mr and Mrs Banks would have to have been Russian oligarchs.
0:07:33 > 0:07:35Go, go, go. Go!
0:07:35 > 0:07:36Go.
0:07:36 > 0:07:38What do you think of Mary Poppins from the film?
0:07:38 > 0:07:40Is that an inspiring figure?
0:07:40 > 0:07:43- Definitely.- I like the bag. Fits everything in.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45It's a good bag.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48In the books, the nanny rules the nursery,
0:07:48 > 0:07:51and Mary Poppins just says this is how it is going to be, and the mum is terrified.
0:07:51 > 0:07:53Is that not the modern way?
0:07:53 > 0:07:54Definitely not.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57The old-fashioned nanny is quite a stern, sort of matronly type.
0:07:57 > 0:08:02I think that's how she is pictured in books and films, whereas we're not like that at all.
0:08:02 > 0:08:07The author of the books, PL Travers, let me tell you, would turn in her grave to hear that.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10She never believed things should be geared around the children,
0:08:10 > 0:08:12and certainly not that there should be songs.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14It's all about making it fun.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17Obviously keeping everybody safe, and making sure what needs to be done is done,
0:08:17 > 0:08:20but doing it in the funnest, and most creative way possible.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23Is it recommended to put the children to bed,
0:08:23 > 0:08:26and then get them up, and take them up on the roof for a dance?
0:08:26 > 0:08:29- No.- No.- Not advisable.
0:08:35 > 0:08:39The character of Mary Poppins was inspired, at least partly, by a relative.
0:08:40 > 0:08:45After her mother attempted suicide, the young PL Travers latched onto a maiden great-aunt.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50Aunt Ellie was reliable. She brought order and discipline.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54She was also formidable, she was bossy, and stern.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56Sound familiar?
0:08:58 > 0:09:01PL Travers had strong views about the appearance of Mary Poppins.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05She was no beauty, but rather plain,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08similar to a doll that had belonged to the author as a girl.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13"The newcomer had shiny black hair,
0:09:13 > 0:09:17rather like a wooden Dutch doll, and she was thin,
0:09:17 > 0:09:23with large feet and hands, and small, rather peering blue eyes."
0:09:27 > 0:09:30And mixed in with all this was her magic.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36When I was a child, I loved the magical potential in these stories.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39Like the Alice books, and the Narnia series,
0:09:39 > 0:09:44there was a sense in Mary Poppins that always a parallel magic universe was going on
0:09:44 > 0:09:47you could slip in and out of, and there'd be no rules, and no bedtime.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52But like those other famous stories, Travers' books also had darkness in them.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55There was fear, and sadness and loss.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58There's magic, but there is no forever.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01And I think children know there's no forever.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03They know about old age, they know about loss.
0:10:04 > 0:10:09The greatest works of children's literature always have dark shadows within them.
0:10:21 > 0:10:25PL Travers' creativity all came together in that book of 1934,
0:10:25 > 0:10:28a book that very nearly failed to see the light of day.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33It never occurred to me that anybody would want to publish it,
0:10:33 > 0:10:36so I was writing it really for myself.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41And then a friend saw it, half written and said,
0:10:41 > 0:10:43"I'll take this to a publisher",
0:10:43 > 0:10:46and I thought, "Well, a publisher won't want this."
0:10:46 > 0:10:48But apparently he did.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52The publishing house was in London, so PL Travers would motor to Soho
0:10:52 > 0:10:55in her beaten-up old BSA sports car.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07She was keen to take control of everything -
0:11:07 > 0:11:10the artwork, the design of the cover, even the typeface.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16That autumn, the book came out.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19The initial print run sold out quickly.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22It was on the road to being a children's classic.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30Jenny Koralek, an author herself, knew PL Travers well.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36She could be fun and funny, and bubbly, and a bit wacky.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40And the books have got that somewhere too.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43Was she an easy person to be friends with?
0:11:43 > 0:11:46I get the sense she might have had a slightly mercurial temperament.
0:11:46 > 0:11:48No, she wasn't easy.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51She was not at all easy.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54She kept parts of her life very private,
0:11:54 > 0:11:56and none of us realised she was Australian.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59Until she finally confessed that she was!
0:11:59 > 0:12:01Her dark secret?
0:12:01 > 0:12:07She was a complicated, profoundly... unusual woman.
0:12:09 > 0:12:15In the book, Mary Poppins arrives from nowhere, simply blown in by the wind.
0:12:16 > 0:12:21PL Travers always maintained that the character had come into her mind in a similar way.
0:12:22 > 0:12:28Mary Poppins was not her sitting down to concoct.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30She appeared.
0:12:30 > 0:12:35She was very dramatic, and theatrical, and whimsical,
0:12:35 > 0:12:38and when you were with her, and she said something like...
0:12:38 > 0:12:41"She just came to me", and that's how she talked -
0:12:41 > 0:12:43this creature sort of came up.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46Out of God knows... As she puts it, God knows where.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48Jung would know where.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Mary Poppins was a nanny who slid up banisters.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56Even the author never knew what she might do next.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02To me it was a shock too when she rode up the banisters.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04I didn't know she was going to do it.
0:13:05 > 0:13:10And again and again, when I read back over the books, I am surprised.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12And I think to myself,
0:13:12 > 0:13:14"Well, how did she think of that?"
0:13:18 > 0:13:23PL Travers's imagination was broader than we might presume in a children's author.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31Rather surprisingly, PL Travers also turned her hand to erotic writing.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33Here she is in the literary magazine The Triad
0:13:33 > 0:13:37inviting readers to imagine her taking off her underwear.
0:13:39 > 0:13:43"And then the silky hush of intimate things,
0:13:43 > 0:13:45fragrant with my fragrance,
0:13:47 > 0:13:52steel softly down, so loath to rob me of my last dear concealment."
0:13:54 > 0:13:55Saucy...
0:14:01 > 0:14:05In the end she went on to write six Mary Poppins books.
0:14:05 > 0:14:07Although they were marketed towards children,
0:14:07 > 0:14:10she always saw them as books for grown-ups, too.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16Millions came to love her story of the magical nanny.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19It struck a chord with readers all over the world.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27This overseas success was to change everything for PL Travers.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35Over in Los Angeles,
0:14:35 > 0:14:39a young girl called Diane had become a big fan of Mary Poppins.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46Diane was living an ordinary, all-American life...
0:14:47 > 0:14:50..but for one important difference.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53Her father was Walt Disney.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00Disney had created a powerful new studio in Hollywood,
0:15:00 > 0:15:03and was always on the hunt for source material.
0:15:03 > 0:15:08Thanks to his daughter's obvious enjoyment, he homed in on Mary Poppins.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17Film historian Brian Sibley has investigated the life of Walt Disney,
0:15:17 > 0:15:20and in particular, his relationship with PL Travers.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27In the 1940s, Disney was at the peak of his current success.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30He'd made Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs,
0:15:30 > 0:15:33the first feature-length cartoon film with synchronised sound and colour.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36That film changed everything.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41More than 250,000 paintings like these
0:15:41 > 0:15:44were created by Walt Disney and his band of artists
0:15:44 > 0:15:47to make the most daring adventure in the history of motion pictures.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50Dwarves' names fit their personalities.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53This pompous-looking individual is Doc,
0:15:53 > 0:15:55the self-appointed leader of the group.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58He'd made it clear to people a film was capable of
0:15:58 > 0:16:01carrying much more than just the comic antics of a mouse or duck.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04It could carry emotion, and character, and portray those things on the screen,
0:16:04 > 0:16:08and also that it could play to an audience, not of children,
0:16:08 > 0:16:10but a whole family audience.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13And old sourpuss here is Grumpy, the woman-hater.
0:16:13 > 0:16:18Last but not least is Dopey. He's nice, but sort of silly.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21He had an extraordinary nose for a good story.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24He really did. He sussed out a story the moment he read it.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28I think he instantly saw this would make a perfect motion picture.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31What do you think appealed to him? Was it just the principle of the magical nanny?
0:16:32 > 0:16:36The true strength of the Poppins stories is the character herself,
0:16:36 > 0:16:38because she comes from nowhere.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42She's somebody whose magic is contained within her.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46It's something special and separate, and unfathomable in a way,
0:16:46 > 0:16:51and I think he saw all those as very positive qualities he could make a story from.
0:16:51 > 0:16:56What sort of image of family life do you think Walt Disney wanted to put out there?
0:16:56 > 0:16:59What did he think about families, and what did he want to say about them?
0:16:59 > 0:17:02Well, the interesting thing about Disney and families is that his own family,
0:17:02 > 0:17:06as a child, was one that was quite a stressful and disturbing one, in many ways.
0:17:06 > 0:17:13He had a father who was really quite brutal, and very severe and doctrinaire.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16He had a loving mother, but it was a difficult childhood,
0:17:16 > 0:17:20and I think he idealised the idea of the perfect family.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24When he told his daughter he was going to get the rights to Mary Poppins
0:17:24 > 0:17:27do you think he anticipated any trouble with that?
0:17:27 > 0:17:30No, I don't think he did because, up till then,
0:17:30 > 0:17:32most of the stories that he had been working on,
0:17:32 > 0:17:36they were stories where the authors were not alive.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39You know, he was already toying with Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41His next film was Pinocchio, which...
0:17:41 > 0:17:43All these authors were dead and buried.
0:17:43 > 0:17:47As far as he was concerned, I don't think he saw that it was going to be a problem.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52But convincing this particular live-and-kicking author
0:17:52 > 0:17:55would come to be Disney's biggest challenge.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02It was around this time that PL Travers attempted to create her own family.
0:18:02 > 0:18:04A real family.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06By now, after ten years of living together,
0:18:06 > 0:18:08she and Madge had gone their separate ways.
0:18:08 > 0:18:10And as she neared her 40th birthday,
0:18:10 > 0:18:14Pamela Travers decided to adopt a child.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23Her friends tried to stop her.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26They thought she was crazy. They said she'd be an unsuitable parent.
0:18:29 > 0:18:31I think this is rather amazing.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34A 40-something single woman - possibly a gay 40-something single woman -
0:18:34 > 0:18:36setting out to adopt a child,
0:18:36 > 0:18:39determined to create a differently shaped family
0:18:39 > 0:18:41in the teeth of social disapproval.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46I think I thought that sort of thing started in about 2005.
0:18:46 > 0:18:49And yet here it is happening in 1939.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57We could make a documentary about her even if she hadn't written Mary Poppins.
0:19:03 > 0:19:07Her first attempt to create a family was completely bizarre.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12She tried to adopt the 16-year-old girl who cleaned her cottage.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18Despite her ingenious argument that the maid's parents had too many children as it was -
0:19:18 > 0:19:20What's one kid give or take? -
0:19:20 > 0:19:23the girl and her family refused.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27In a moment of pique, Travers sacked the maid.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34Undeterred, the adoption fantasy remained lodged in her mind.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38A little while later, she heard of a new opportunity in Dublin.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45PL Travers moved in Irish literary circles,
0:19:45 > 0:19:47where she met the writer and critic Joseph Maunsel Hone,
0:19:47 > 0:19:49biographer of WB Yeats.
0:19:51 > 0:19:56His son and daughter-in-law were struggling to look after their large family.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00Twin boys - Camillus and Anthony - had just been born.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04The family couldn't cope financially or emotionally,
0:20:04 > 0:20:06and decided to have them adopted.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12Quite naturally, they were keen the twins remained together,
0:20:13 > 0:20:18but PL Travers would only agree to take one of the babies.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23PL Travers believed in astrology,
0:20:23 > 0:20:26and asked her favourite astrologer to cast a horoscope for both the children.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29We've had a couple cast to see how they would have looked.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33The astrologer's conclusion was that the preferred baby would be Camillus,
0:20:33 > 0:20:39saying, "All in all, it would be rare to find better cross rays between a child and it own mother.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42So I would say, by all means, adopt him."
0:20:44 > 0:20:49So PL Travers chose Camillus, and left his brother behind.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00But motherhood was far more demanding than she'd assumed.
0:21:01 > 0:21:03Camillus cried most of the time,
0:21:03 > 0:21:07and PL Travers even considered putting him in a babies' home.
0:21:09 > 0:21:11But she persevered,
0:21:11 > 0:21:14and when he was old enough, she sent him to boarding school.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20PL Travers made the fateful decision
0:21:20 > 0:21:24not to tell him that he was adopted, and had a twin brother.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28After her own difficult upbringing,
0:21:28 > 0:21:31with an alcoholic father and suicidal mother,
0:21:31 > 0:21:36it seems she was sowing the seeds for a crisis in her new family later on.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53A single mother. An adopted child.
0:21:53 > 0:21:55Separated twins.
0:21:55 > 0:22:00This was all about as far removed as it could be from the traditional, nuclear family of PL Travers' books.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04But those books don't necessarily show us a happy family.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07They're full of coldness and distance.
0:22:07 > 0:22:11The lonely Banks children look to their nanny for love,
0:22:11 > 0:22:13but although she gives them magic, and she gives them order,
0:22:14 > 0:22:16she never gives them tenderness.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23To please the apple-pie Disney contingent in America,
0:22:23 > 0:22:26it might need jollying up for the screen.
0:22:31 > 0:22:35Walt Disney was bubbling with ideas for making Mary Poppins jollier,
0:22:35 > 0:22:38but his plans were way too premature.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41He hadn't yet secured the film rights.
0:22:42 > 0:22:46And PL Travers was not exactly his greatest fan.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51Earlier, she'd written a scathing film review of Snow White.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54"Oh, he's clever, this Disney!"
0:22:54 > 0:22:58Then I'll be fairest in the land!
0:22:59 > 0:23:03"The very pith of his secret is the enlargement of the animal world,
0:23:03 > 0:23:07and a corresponding deflation of all human values.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11There is a profound cynicism at the root of his, as of all sentimentality."
0:23:17 > 0:23:21Walt Disney's relationship with PL Travers was less of a walkover,
0:23:21 > 0:23:23more of a relentless trudge.
0:23:23 > 0:23:30In 1959 he'd already spent over 15 years trying to persuade her to sell him the film rights to Mary Poppins.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32But she kept saying no.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35By now she'd moved into London and was living in lovely Smith Street in Chelsea,
0:23:35 > 0:23:38not unlike the Cherry Tree Lane of the books.
0:23:41 > 0:23:48PL Travers suspected the sentimental Disney would lighten up the darkness of her Poppins world.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55For example, there's the story of Bad Wednesday.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57Jane Banks has been a bit naughty
0:23:57 > 0:24:00so Mary Poppins goes out and leaves her alone in the house,
0:24:00 > 0:24:03and she's drawn by magic into an old Royal Doulton bowl.
0:24:03 > 0:24:08In the bowl there's a big dark house with a strange old man cackling,
0:24:08 > 0:24:12and saying to Jane, "You're very pretty. Why don't you live here with me?"
0:24:13 > 0:24:16And Jane says, "I don't want to live here. I'm scared. I want to go home."
0:24:16 > 0:24:20And the old man says, "You've gone into the past, there's no home.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22Your family is not even born.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24You're going to be here with me forever."
0:24:25 > 0:24:28And Jane screams and screams and screams,
0:24:28 > 0:24:30and Mary Poppins comes to get her.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32That's her punishment for having a tantrum.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34How dark is that?
0:24:34 > 0:24:38It chilled my blood when I was a child, and the truth is, it still does now.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44Bad Wednesday would surely never make it into a Disney film?
0:24:49 > 0:24:54Walt Disney was not the only showman who tried to adapt Travers' books into a different art form.
0:24:56 > 0:24:58It's a very sweet little crescent.
0:24:58 > 0:25:04The world's most successful producer of stage musicals Cameron Mackintosh was keen to put on Mary Poppins.
0:25:04 > 0:25:09The actual feel of that Cherry Tree Lane in the stage show
0:25:09 > 0:25:11was taken from the street that we're in.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13Ah, fabulous.
0:25:14 > 0:25:16He met PL Travers to try to win her over,
0:25:18 > 0:25:21just as Walt Disney had tried many years before.
0:25:22 > 0:25:28It was about 1993, I finally went over to Cherry Tree Lane where Pamela lived,
0:25:28 > 0:25:30and...or Ms Travers...
0:25:30 > 0:25:36And you know, she was quite frail at that point, but sharp,
0:25:36 > 0:25:38absolutely sharp.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41And I soon found myself sort of like going back to school
0:25:41 > 0:25:45as she sort of rigidly asked me questions,
0:25:45 > 0:25:46and...
0:25:46 > 0:25:49She was very suspicious that actually all I wanted was the title.
0:25:49 > 0:25:55And I made it very clear to her that my interests were actually because of her books.
0:25:55 > 0:26:00She created a language for...for her characters which is unlike any other author.
0:26:00 > 0:26:04She would never tell me when I kept saying about the characters...
0:26:04 > 0:26:06I was trying to find the back story to Mrs Banks,
0:26:06 > 0:26:08and if she didn't want to talk about something, she said,
0:26:08 > 0:26:11"It just came to me", and that's it.
0:26:11 > 0:26:14No other explanation, she wouldn't give me any back story.
0:26:14 > 0:26:18How do you see the character of Mary Poppins, who do you think that person is?
0:26:18 > 0:26:22I think Mary Poppins was a mixture of herself,
0:26:22 > 0:26:23Pamela,
0:26:23 > 0:26:25and her aunt, that she brought up,
0:26:25 > 0:26:29who was the one who had the great parrot umbrella.
0:26:29 > 0:26:31She went sort of from pillar to post,
0:26:31 > 0:26:34because you know, her father did drink a lot,
0:26:34 > 0:26:38and did die young, and her mother she didn't really have much time for.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41I mean she was a very strange person as...you know,
0:26:41 > 0:26:45because she wrote about an idealised kind of family life
0:26:45 > 0:26:50in a way, that they never either had or knew about.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53Did you feel any kinship with Walt Disney in his struggle?
0:26:53 > 0:26:55Yes, I did in a way.
0:26:55 > 0:26:57He pursued it for all those years,
0:26:57 > 0:27:00and I think somebody like that needed to do it.
0:27:00 > 0:27:04She would never have volunteered it, and in fact, when it nearly all crashed
0:27:04 > 0:27:08it was her lawyer who said, "Pamela, you must do this,
0:27:08 > 0:27:11and I don't care - I'm going to force you to sign this contract."
0:27:15 > 0:27:19In 1959, with the help of PL Travers' astute lawyer,
0:27:19 > 0:27:23trans-Atlantic negotiations were re-opened in earnest.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28Disney hoped his perseverance might finally pay off.
0:27:31 > 0:27:35Disney made PL Travers his best offer yet.
0:27:35 > 0:27:37100,000 in cash!
0:27:39 > 0:27:415 per cent of the profits!
0:27:41 > 0:27:43And script approval!
0:27:43 > 0:27:45He rued the day he offered that.
0:27:47 > 0:27:52After a 15-year stand-off, Travers agreed.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58# For a spoonful of sugar
0:27:58 > 0:28:00# Helps the medicine go down
0:28:00 > 0:28:02# The medicine go down
0:28:02 > 0:28:04# The medicine go down
0:28:04 > 0:28:09# Just a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down
0:28:09 > 0:28:13# In a most delightful way #
0:28:13 > 0:28:14Thank you.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26While Walt Disney was busy planning his cheerful version of the Banks family,
0:28:26 > 0:28:30PL Travers' own small family of two was in full-blown crisis.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36It all kicked off in 1956.
0:28:36 > 0:28:41Her adopted son Camillus - by then a handsome young man of 17 -
0:28:41 > 0:28:43went for a drink in the King's Road.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Waiting in this pub was a man who has tracked Camillus down,
0:28:47 > 0:28:50and has arranged to accidentally bump into him.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55His name was Anthony Hone.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00The two have a lot in common.
0:29:00 > 0:29:04They're the same age, they look strangely similar.
0:29:06 > 0:29:08Anthony knows he was adopted.
0:29:08 > 0:29:11He knows he had siblings, and possibly a twin.
0:29:11 > 0:29:16They keep talking, keep drinking, and it all dawns on Camillus at once.
0:29:16 > 0:29:20He's adopted, Pamela Travers is not his biological mother,
0:29:20 > 0:29:23and this is his twin.
0:29:26 > 0:29:31It was a terrible shock for Camillus, and he had furious rows with his mother.
0:29:32 > 0:29:3617 was a disastrous age to find out his life had been based on a lie.
0:29:42 > 0:29:46Kitty Travers is the daughter of Camillus, and the granddaughter of PL Travers.
0:29:47 > 0:29:51Do you think that's something he came to terms with?
0:29:51 > 0:29:55Well, it made him go completely bananas,
0:29:55 > 0:29:59to have been lied to like that by someone you trust.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02He was absolutely devastated when he found out
0:30:02 > 0:30:07that he was actually part of this huge, Irish family
0:30:07 > 0:30:11of literary and artistic giants,
0:30:11 > 0:30:17and to have been booted out of a family like that would be awfully hurtful.
0:30:20 > 0:30:22I felt betrayed.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25Cheated.
0:30:27 > 0:30:29Camillus died in 2011.
0:30:30 > 0:30:34Nine years before his death, he took part in an Australian documentary.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38The thing about my mother was she was very hard to know
0:30:38 > 0:30:42because she kept a great deal concealed.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45Even from her son, her only son.
0:30:46 > 0:30:51I couldn't believe that somebody I had loved and trusted for so long
0:30:51 > 0:30:54could have been lying to me at the same time for so long.
0:30:57 > 0:31:02Once he found out he'd been adopted, that was the excuse for the kind of floodgates to open,
0:31:02 > 0:31:06and to go at it, no holds barred.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09And yeah... He never, never, never got over that,
0:31:09 > 0:31:13and he always used is as an excuse for the rest of his life for all his bad behaviour.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16How was her relationship with Camillus?
0:31:16 > 0:31:21Do you think she could she see that he was still struggling with that finding out?
0:31:21 > 0:31:23Do you think she felt guilty?
0:31:23 > 0:31:26I certainly don't think she would have ever accepted any guilt.
0:31:28 > 0:31:32I really don't think so. I certainly never heard her express any guilt ever.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37So what did she think? That he should count himself lucky to have been adopted?
0:31:37 > 0:31:40That it was written in the stars that it was...
0:31:40 > 0:31:43It was written in the stars that he was meant for her.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49Camillus hit the bottle hard.
0:31:49 > 0:31:53In early 1960 he was caught drunk-driving, and lost his licence.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57But that didn't stop him.
0:31:57 > 0:32:01A few months later he was driving down a Middlesex Road
0:32:01 > 0:32:03drunk again.
0:32:03 > 0:32:05The Police pulled him over, and he was arrested.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11Camillus got six months in prison.
0:32:11 > 0:32:15# Oh, it's a jolly 'oliday with Mary...
0:32:16 > 0:32:22Mary Poppins' jolly holiday was in sharp contrast to the life of the awful son.
0:32:22 > 0:32:24# ..ordinary... #
0:32:24 > 0:32:29His 21st birthday was spent in Stafford Maximum Security Prison.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33Yet another brutal shock for Camillus and his mother.
0:32:37 > 0:32:39The timing was horribly ironic.
0:32:39 > 0:32:43This was all happening while PL Travers was finalising the deal with Disney
0:32:43 > 0:32:46on the film about how best to bring up children.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55Walt Disney was besotted with his new movie project.
0:32:55 > 0:32:58He filled rooms with drawings of Mary Poppins.
0:32:59 > 0:33:03He was particularly excited by his plans to mix live action with animation.
0:33:05 > 0:33:07But before filming could begin,
0:33:07 > 0:33:12he was contractually obliged to give PL Travers editorial input.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19In March, 1961, she arrived in sunny California,
0:33:19 > 0:33:21a world away from dreary London.
0:33:23 > 0:33:27This was Disney's world, where he controlled everything around him.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31But she was undaunted,
0:33:31 > 0:33:33and ready to find her corner.
0:33:35 > 0:33:40These two characters actually had a lot more in common than you might suppose.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44They both had difficult backgrounds, had come from hard childhoods.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46They were both used to getting their own way.
0:33:46 > 0:33:49By the time they finally met and clashed,
0:33:49 > 0:33:54they were both people who were not used to people telling them what they could and couldn't do,
0:33:54 > 0:33:59and you've also got, inevitably with that, the fact they are going to have some kind of head-on collision.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02Now, where is Mr Disney?
0:34:02 > 0:34:03She's here!
0:34:03 > 0:34:05Well, Pamela Travers.
0:34:05 > 0:34:10It's the ensuing tussle of wills as Travers fought for the Mary Poppins of her book
0:34:10 > 0:34:13against Walt Disney's version that forms the plot
0:34:13 > 0:34:16of the new Disney film, Saving Mr Banks.
0:34:16 > 0:34:18- It doesn't look like that. No, no, it's all wrong.- It's ALL wrong?
0:34:18 > 0:34:22# Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious #
0:34:22 > 0:34:24Stop! Mary Poppins is not for sale.
0:34:24 > 0:34:26I won't have her turned into one of your silly cartoons.
0:34:28 > 0:34:31Emma Thompson, something of an expert in the business of creating nannies,
0:34:31 > 0:34:33plays PL Travers.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36I could just eat you up.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38That wouldn't be appropriate.
0:34:38 > 0:34:42You've never been to Disneyland, and that's the happiest place on earth.
0:34:42 > 0:34:43There he is.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46I think she didn't understand the film.
0:34:46 > 0:34:48She was very snobby about it.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50There was a time when film was considered a lesser art form.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53That's long gone now,
0:34:53 > 0:34:56but she felt that Walt Disney was shallow,
0:34:56 > 0:34:58a moneymaking mogul.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02I think that Travers really was frightened that it would all be taken away,
0:35:02 > 0:35:04it would be destroyed.
0:35:04 > 0:35:08What she didn't know about Mary Poppins was that she would survive,
0:35:08 > 0:35:10she would survive the clash of cultures,
0:35:10 > 0:35:13she would survive being put into a different culture,
0:35:13 > 0:35:15and interpreted in a wholly new way.
0:35:15 > 0:35:22But how would you summarise the main changes from book to the film of the Mary Poppins character?
0:35:22 > 0:35:24Well, she wasn't pretty.
0:35:24 > 0:35:29She was based on this little Dutch doll with a square, stub nose.
0:35:29 > 0:35:32You know, it's just not Julie Andrews.
0:35:32 > 0:35:37It is a plain person, and Julie was so beautiful, beautiful in it.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39Shall we begin?
0:35:39 > 0:35:41I remember as a child
0:35:41 > 0:35:43seeing the Disney film,
0:35:43 > 0:35:46and really noticing it wasn't as dark as the books.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48Thinking it was wonderful in its own way, but being sort of disappointed.
0:35:48 > 0:35:51Even as a small person, I thought, "That's not the book",
0:35:51 > 0:35:54but that's OK, because there were great songs.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56Now, let us begin.
0:35:56 > 0:36:01VOICEOVER: The Sherman brothers created a score that's quite extraordinary, actually.
0:36:01 > 0:36:05No, no, no, no, no. Responstable is not a word.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08We made it up.
0:36:08 > 0:36:10Well, unmake it up.
0:36:15 > 0:36:20There are some songs that seem to resonate with something in a collective psyche,
0:36:20 > 0:36:23like Let's Go Fly a Kite is one of those songs that...
0:36:23 > 0:36:26can't help but lift you up.
0:36:26 > 0:36:29It's not an annoying song, EVER.
0:36:29 > 0:36:32We had to do it so many times.
0:36:32 > 0:36:36I thought we're going to want to kill ourselves at the end of the day, but we were still going...
0:36:36 > 0:36:38SINGS LET'S FLY A KITE
0:36:40 > 0:36:42We loved it.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49The composers, the Sherman brothers, the script writer and the author
0:36:49 > 0:36:52began discussions that lasted ten days.
0:36:53 > 0:36:57The Disney team had been adapting the episodic chapters of the books
0:36:57 > 0:37:00into a neat, Hollywood narrative.
0:37:01 > 0:37:05PL Travers insisted that her conversations at Disney be taped,
0:37:05 > 0:37:08so we can actually hear exactly what went on as the Sherman brothers
0:37:08 > 0:37:10valiantly tried to sell the Disney vision.
0:37:10 > 0:37:13It's quite an insight into PL Travers' character.
0:37:18 > 0:37:21Now we come to my notes here, my typewritten notes.
0:37:21 > 0:37:23It is integral to the book and to the story
0:37:23 > 0:37:25in whatever form it's presented
0:37:25 > 0:37:28that Mary Poppins should never be impolite to anybody.
0:37:28 > 0:37:36We get the comedy out of this grey, quiet, polite person through which all the strange magic happens.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39You say later on...
0:37:42 > 0:37:46You see, obviously she sounds like a bit of a nightmare in a way, but I'm quite sympathetic.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48She cared what she'd written.
0:37:48 > 0:37:53She cared what they were doing with it. I think it was brave of her to speak up for herself.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58We wouldn't say it like that.
0:37:58 > 0:38:02But we have to be very precise about words, particularly in the script.
0:38:02 > 0:38:07We must make the words mean exactly what they say, and no more, no less.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12At times you can hear the discussion become quite strained.
0:38:12 > 0:38:15Just a little something in the script. I'll help you with it later.
0:38:15 > 0:38:18PL Travers certainly seems to know her own mind.
0:38:18 > 0:38:22My idea is, and probably you will agree with me...
0:38:22 > 0:38:25The Sherman brothers frequently try to sweet-talk her.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28Leave it that way, please.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31Because, truly, I think the other is false.
0:38:31 > 0:38:34- It's false.- I think it's an improvement.
0:38:34 > 0:38:36Hm, good.
0:38:36 > 0:38:39The core of the disagreement was about sentimentality,
0:38:39 > 0:38:43sprinkling sugar on everything, solving everything with magic,
0:38:43 > 0:38:45making everything too sweet.
0:38:55 > 0:39:00But within the film, one scene stands out as haunting and melancholy.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03It's a poignant glimpse that's close to the spirit of the books
0:39:04 > 0:39:09of a marginalised life that can't be improved or resolved by magic.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17It's the Feed the Birds song at St Paul's Cathedral.
0:39:22 > 0:39:26The Sherman brothers discuss the song in an audio interview.
0:39:27 > 0:39:31It seems to have encapsulated what we were trying to do in Mary Poppins,
0:39:31 > 0:39:33that is, to say to give that extra love,
0:39:33 > 0:39:37and a tuppence signifies little,
0:39:37 > 0:39:39hardly anything, and feeding the bird
0:39:39 > 0:39:42meant giving to the people in need.
0:39:42 > 0:39:45And in this particular case, the Banks children needed
0:39:45 > 0:39:48their father and mother's attention and their love.
0:39:48 > 0:39:54Walt loved this sentiment, and he felt it so deeply, and he'd look over at Dick, and he'd say,
0:39:55 > 0:39:57"Play it."
0:39:57 > 0:40:01I knew what he wanted. Sometimes he wouldn't even say anything,
0:40:01 > 0:40:05and he would just look out the window, and get a little misty-eyed, and we'd play it.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10# Early each day to the steps of St Paul's
0:40:11 > 0:40:16# The little old bird lady comes
0:40:17 > 0:40:22# In her own special way, to the people she calls
0:40:22 > 0:40:29# Come buy my bags full of crumbs
0:40:29 > 0:40:33# Come feed the little birds
0:40:33 > 0:40:36# Show them you care
0:40:36 > 0:40:42# And you'll be glad if you do
0:40:42 > 0:40:45# Their young ones are hungry
0:40:45 > 0:40:49# Their nests are so bare
0:40:49 > 0:40:58# All it takes is tuppence from you #
0:40:59 > 0:41:02It's interesting that Walt Disney was obsessed with this song.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05It seems so full of sadness and loneliness.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08When the children have gone, the old bird lady will still be there,
0:41:08 > 0:41:12on her own, in the cold, pleading for tuppences.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18It has the dark shadows that the film otherwise lacked.
0:41:18 > 0:41:21Maybe that's why PL Travers actually liked the song.
0:41:21 > 0:41:23But that was the exception.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31By now, Walt Disney was largely ignoring her.
0:41:32 > 0:41:36Although billed as a consultant, she was no longer being consulted.
0:41:36 > 0:41:38Take a look!
0:41:39 > 0:41:41Disney was far more interested in
0:41:41 > 0:41:44using his special effects to make Mary Poppins fly...
0:41:44 > 0:41:46Perhaps it's a witch.
0:41:46 > 0:41:48Of course not. Witches have brooms.
0:41:51 > 0:41:54..along with revolutionary animatronic techniques.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57This is a little robin we had in Mary Poppins,
0:41:57 > 0:42:00and this little bird sang a duet with Julie Andrews.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03Maybe we can get a little response from it.
0:42:03 > 0:42:05Hello there.
0:42:05 > 0:42:07(TWEETS)
0:42:08 > 0:42:11# .. in a most delightful way #
0:42:13 > 0:42:16After 20 years of struggle in the making,
0:42:16 > 0:42:20the film was finally completed in 1964.
0:42:20 > 0:42:22Mary Poppins!
0:42:24 > 0:42:28It was now officially Walt Disney's Mary Poppins.
0:42:30 > 0:42:32And the original author hadn't even seen it yet.
0:42:39 > 0:42:41COMMENTATOR: You've never seen such a crowd.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45On August the 27th, a grand premiere was held in Hollywood.
0:42:45 > 0:42:49Here is Julie Andrews, Mary Poppins!
0:42:50 > 0:42:54It was a glittering evening. Throngs of screaming people were greeted by Mickey Mouse,
0:42:54 > 0:42:57Goofy, Snow White and her small entourage.
0:42:57 > 0:43:00There were dancing penguins and Pearly Kings.
0:43:02 > 0:43:06All I can tell you is the genius of Julie Andrews and Walt Disney
0:43:06 > 0:43:09have made probably one of the all-time great motion pictures
0:43:09 > 0:43:11we have ever made in this crazy town of Hollywood.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16But so much tension remained between Disney and the genius author
0:43:16 > 0:43:18that he hadn't even invited her,
0:43:18 > 0:43:21though she wangled a ticket anyway.
0:43:23 > 0:43:25PL Travers got rather lost in the crowd,
0:43:25 > 0:43:29but despite the presence of Walt Disney, Julie Andrews and Dick van Dyke,
0:43:29 > 0:43:33the host of the evening still managed a brief interview with her.
0:43:33 > 0:43:35This is PL Travers.
0:43:35 > 0:43:37Hello.
0:43:37 > 0:43:38Hello to you.
0:43:38 > 0:43:42I would like you to tell the people out there how all of this came about.
0:43:42 > 0:43:46Ah, now you're asking for my secrets and you know,
0:43:46 > 0:43:48one of the first things about Mary Poppins is
0:43:48 > 0:43:50that she never, never explains.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53I'm looking forward to seeing what he has done tonight, very much.
0:43:53 > 0:43:55Well, I won't hold you any longer.
0:43:55 > 0:44:00Thank you so much for coming to our microphone, the author of Mary Poppins.
0:44:00 > 0:44:01Thank you.
0:44:01 > 0:44:03Bye-bye.
0:44:05 > 0:44:08PL Travers did not enjoy the film.
0:44:12 > 0:44:14There probably aren't words to describe your emotion.
0:44:14 > 0:44:16Now, now, gentlemen.
0:44:16 > 0:44:20She still resented many of the songs, and there are sixteen of them.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24She especially loathed the animation sequences.
0:44:24 > 0:44:29# It's Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious
0:44:29 > 0:44:32# Even though the sound of it is something quite atrocious... #
0:44:32 > 0:44:34Atrocious indeed.
0:44:34 > 0:44:39There's a fascinating letter that PL Travers sent her lawyer after the premiere.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43She says, "As chalk is to cheese, so is the film to the book.
0:44:43 > 0:44:47Tears ran down my cheeks because it was all so distorted.
0:44:48 > 0:44:53I was so shocked I felt I would never write - let alone smile - again."
0:44:53 > 0:44:56# Supercalifragilisticexpilidocious
0:44:56 > 0:45:00# Supercalifragilisticexpilidocious #
0:45:06 > 0:45:09Her failure to understand the movie business helps explain
0:45:09 > 0:45:12why she thought she could still change the completed film.
0:45:14 > 0:45:16She went to the party after the show,
0:45:16 > 0:45:19and she went up to Walt Disney and said,
0:45:19 > 0:45:22"Well, you know, the...the... It's all right, I suppose.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24The...cartoons will have to go."
0:45:24 > 0:45:29And Walt said "Pam, this ship has sailed".
0:45:29 > 0:45:31And that was it.
0:45:31 > 0:45:33Because, you know, he was a ruthless old sod as well.
0:45:44 > 0:45:47I remember seeing the film when I was a child and being disappointed.
0:45:47 > 0:45:49I loved the books so much, and the film was...
0:45:49 > 0:45:51You know, something was missing.
0:45:51 > 0:45:54It was too trivial, too easy, and happy.
0:45:54 > 0:45:56There was certainly no Bad Wednesday.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05On the other hand, it had cartoon penguins,
0:46:05 > 0:46:07it had Dick van Dyke dancing,
0:46:07 > 0:46:10it had chimney sweeps on the roof tops of London.
0:46:10 > 0:46:13It was brilliant. So I was conflicted.
0:46:18 > 0:46:20Was PL Travers also conflicted?
0:46:20 > 0:46:24Privately, she said it was all bad, that she was in tears because she hated the film so much.
0:46:24 > 0:46:30But was she at all moved watching this film about a happy united family flying a kite?
0:46:30 > 0:46:35Did she think at all about her own complicated attempts to be a mother, and her troubled son?
0:46:35 > 0:46:37Were some of the tears because of that?
0:46:38 > 0:46:40She never said, but then she wouldn't have done, would she?
0:46:40 > 0:46:43No sentimentality, remember.
0:46:47 > 0:46:52Despite PL Travers' misgivings, the film was a critical and audience hit worldwide.
0:46:53 > 0:46:58It won five Oscars including one for Julie Andrews in her first film role.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01And the winner is Julie Andrews for Mary Poppins.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03As well as a Golden Globe.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06Thank you very much for this lovely honour.
0:47:06 > 0:47:10It's a wonderful memento of a very, very happy time.
0:47:13 > 0:47:19Mary Poppins eventually earned the Disney Corporation well over 100 million.
0:47:19 > 0:47:24And remember, PL Travers was on a juicy 5 per cent cut.
0:47:26 > 0:47:28She wrote to a friend that life would never be the same again.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30She'll be wealthy forever.
0:47:30 > 0:47:34A charity is set up, The Cherry Tree Trust, for disadvantaged children.
0:47:34 > 0:47:40And with her own share of the fortune PL Travers sets up investments.
0:47:42 > 0:47:48# Patiently, cautiously, trustingly invested in the...
0:47:48 > 0:47:52# To be specific, in the Dawes
0:47:52 > 0:47:54# Tomes, Mousely
0:47:54 > 0:47:59# Grubbs Fidelity Fiduciary Bank #
0:47:59 > 0:48:02Welcome to our joyful family of investors.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05Give it back! Give back the money!
0:48:05 > 0:48:08In the movie there's an underlying theme
0:48:08 > 0:48:10that money is not all-important,
0:48:10 > 0:48:12and charity begins at home...
0:48:13 > 0:48:16..a message warmly received by the family audience.
0:48:21 > 0:48:23The great thing about the Disney film is that
0:48:23 > 0:48:26it made Mary Poppins universally known throughout the world.
0:48:26 > 0:48:30The sad thing about it is that it made Mary Poppins
0:48:30 > 0:48:34into Walt Disney's Mary Poppins rather than PL Travers' Mary Poppins.
0:48:34 > 0:48:41And I think she was constantly seeking an opportunity to say, "How can I remind people that she's mine?
0:48:41 > 0:48:45I'm here! It's over here! It's me. I really did it, you know."
0:48:48 > 0:48:52And so she went on to write two more successful sequels to Mary Poppins,
0:48:52 > 0:48:55helped by publicity from the hit movie.
0:48:56 > 0:49:01She wrote other children's books too, but they largely sank without trace.
0:49:07 > 0:49:11In 1977 PL Travers featured on Desert Island Discs.
0:49:12 > 0:49:14It was one of her rare interviews
0:49:14 > 0:49:19and tellingly, she chose no music, only poetry.
0:49:20 > 0:49:24"Quick now, here now, always."
0:49:24 > 0:49:28The film was mentioned just once.
0:49:28 > 0:49:34Mary Poppins became in 1964, I think it was, in the hands of Walt Disney, a very successful film.
0:49:34 > 0:49:37Did you approve of the cast?
0:49:38 > 0:49:44Oh, yes, well, I approved awfully of the chief character Julie Andrews.
0:49:44 > 0:49:47Well, it's still being shown all over the world.
0:49:47 > 0:49:49Yes, so they tell me.
0:49:49 > 0:49:52I've seen it once or twice and I've learnt to live with it.
0:49:54 > 0:49:56That's gratitude for you.
0:49:56 > 0:50:02It's glamorous and it's a good film on its own level, but I don't think it's very like my books.
0:50:06 > 0:50:08Despite her reluctance to discuss the film,
0:50:08 > 0:50:13PL Travers' life would always be overshadowed by Disney's Mary Poppins...
0:50:15 > 0:50:17..as would the lives of those around her.
0:50:25 > 0:50:30Although rocky at times, her relationship with her adopted son Camillus gradually improved.
0:50:31 > 0:50:35I'm not sure if the knowledge of a healthy inheritance motivated this reconciliation,
0:50:36 > 0:50:38but I don't think it would've hindered it.
0:50:41 > 0:50:45Camillus brought up three children with his wife Frances.
0:50:45 > 0:50:47It wasn't an easy life.
0:50:47 > 0:50:51He struggled with alcoholism, and his attempts at rehab were largely unsuccessful.
0:50:51 > 0:50:56But he did have some kind of ongoing relationship with PL Travers.
0:50:57 > 0:51:03We grew up having to come and visit her every weekend from the suburbs where we lived.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06She wasn't the kind of grandmother who bakes you cakes,
0:51:06 > 0:51:08and you sit on her knee,
0:51:08 > 0:51:12and it made a big impression on us to have somebody
0:51:12 > 0:51:17who leads this mysterious life, and you don't know why she hasn't got a husband,
0:51:17 > 0:51:19and you don't know why she's sitting there
0:51:19 > 0:51:22wearing all this extraordinary silver jewellery,
0:51:22 > 0:51:25and these long flowing robes and stuff.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27It's quite weird, don't you think, that she wrote books
0:51:27 > 0:51:31about a nanny bringing up children in a practically perfect way,
0:51:31 > 0:51:33all full of ideas about what children needed,
0:51:33 > 0:51:37and then in real life was sort of hazy and distant.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40She wasn't interested in helping us in any kind of practical way.
0:51:40 > 0:51:44When I was a baby my mum was pushing me in her pushchair,
0:51:44 > 0:51:48and she stopped en route and asked if she could come and change my nappy,
0:51:48 > 0:51:51and warm up my bottle.
0:51:51 > 0:51:55She stood in the doorway and said, "I'm having my lunch. It's not convenient."
0:51:56 > 0:51:59And that was it, so, that's quite extraordinary.
0:52:00 > 0:52:05Yet she wrote us these poems on our birthdays, and we've still got them,
0:52:05 > 0:52:08and claimed that we were her best in all the world,
0:52:08 > 0:52:11and that she loved us very much, which is very, very sweet,
0:52:11 > 0:52:15but wasn't much help to my mum at the time.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23The contradictions are very interesting.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26It's obvious with Walt Disney she was very controlling.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29We know from the tapes she tried to run everything,
0:52:29 > 0:52:31and I quite admire that.
0:52:31 > 0:52:33I think that's a sign of an artist really caring about their work.
0:52:33 > 0:52:35It really mattered to her.
0:52:35 > 0:52:39And unusual for a woman at that time, so I admire that controlling instinct.
0:52:39 > 0:52:44And yet Kitty Travers told us that she didn't feel guilty about any of the stuff with Camillus
0:52:44 > 0:52:46because she thought it was just meant to be,
0:52:46 > 0:52:49it was decided by the stars, it was down to fate, not her.
0:52:50 > 0:52:52And I think that's fascinating, that at one level
0:52:52 > 0:52:55she wanted to run everything, and another level
0:52:55 > 0:53:00she wanted to believe that everything was decided by cycles of nature beyond her control.
0:53:03 > 0:53:05PL Travers lived a long life,
0:53:05 > 0:53:08and the world that she'd written about was disappearing,
0:53:08 > 0:53:10if it had ever existed.
0:53:11 > 0:53:15But her character, Mary Poppins, is immortal.
0:53:16 > 0:53:19She comes out of a world that is timeless, I think.
0:53:21 > 0:53:23And...
0:53:23 > 0:53:26perhaps that is all one can say about her.
0:53:28 > 0:53:31Her son Camillus had come to accept his mother's nature.
0:53:33 > 0:53:38I could see that in a funny sort of way my mother was trying to be like Mary Poppins with me.
0:53:38 > 0:53:44So she was trying to be kind, nurturing, and strict,
0:53:44 > 0:53:49but at the same time I wouldn't end up hating her,
0:53:49 > 0:53:51which indeed turned out to be the case.
0:53:51 > 0:53:53I ended up loving her.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01Camillus visited her the day before she died.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04She was too ill to speak.
0:54:05 > 0:54:10He sang her a lullaby, the one she used to sing to him as a boy.
0:54:10 > 0:54:14# So lulla lulla lulla lulla bye-bye
0:54:14 > 0:54:18# Do you want the moon to play with?
0:54:18 > 0:54:23# Or the stars to run away with?
0:54:23 > 0:54:27# They'll come if you don't cry
0:54:27 > 0:54:29# So lulla lulla lulla lulla... #
0:54:30 > 0:54:33Her ashes were scattered here at St Mary's Church in Twickenham,
0:54:33 > 0:54:35but there's no memorial plaque.
0:54:35 > 0:54:40It's as though even in death PL Travers is resistant to being identified.
0:54:41 > 0:54:47After she died the Disney Corporation put adverts in the trade press showing Mickey Mouse in tears.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50What would PL Travers have made of that, I wonder?
0:54:51 > 0:54:57And what would she make of the new Disney film Saving Mr Banks, this time about Pamela Travers herself?
0:55:00 > 0:55:03Mary Poppins and the Banks, they're family to me.
0:55:03 > 0:55:05Mary Poppins was a real person?
0:55:07 > 0:55:10So it's not the children she comes to save,
0:55:10 > 0:55:12it's their father...
0:55:12 > 0:55:13It's your father.
0:55:32 > 0:55:35Well, they've done it again. They've done it to her again.
0:55:35 > 0:55:39They've tidied it all up, they've smoothed off the rough edges,
0:55:39 > 0:55:42they've given it a happy ending, they've given it structure and redemption.
0:55:44 > 0:55:47They've completely cleaned up the messy story of Camillus.
0:55:47 > 0:55:49He simply doesn't appear.
0:55:49 > 0:55:54But here's the thing - it really...it really gets you.
0:55:54 > 0:55:56That's what's ridiculous,
0:55:56 > 0:56:00is that it's incredibly moving the way that they sort everything out,
0:56:00 > 0:56:03and they give everything redemption...
0:56:03 > 0:56:06is very powerful, and it knows it's doing it.
0:56:06 > 0:56:09That's what's infuriating - it knows they're doing it.
0:56:09 > 0:56:14There's a moment just near the end where Walt Disney says,
0:56:14 > 0:56:19"That's what story tellers do, they restore order with imagination."
0:56:22 > 0:56:26Life is messy, difficult, dark and complex.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29Feuds can be "made up", but never completely solved.
0:56:29 > 0:56:33Books can try to reflect this sadness and lack of resolution
0:56:33 > 0:56:36as PL Travers' books did, even for children.
0:56:37 > 0:56:40But Hollywood films take a different approach.
0:56:43 > 0:56:47In a way, it's like Hollywood itself is a Mary Poppins or an Aunt Ellie.
0:56:47 > 0:56:51It's tidying up the nursery, it's finding a way through the chaos.
0:56:51 > 0:56:56We want to believe, as much now as we did in 1964, that redemption's possible.
0:56:56 > 0:57:01And that is both the lie and the miracle of Hollywood films.
0:57:01 > 0:57:03That it can all be neat and tidy at the end.
0:57:03 > 0:57:08At some deep human level it's that order we crave.
0:57:26 > 0:57:28One last thing.
0:57:28 > 0:57:31PL Travers specifically told Walt Disney before filming started
0:57:31 > 0:57:35that the line "Let's go fly a kite" was grammatically incorrect.
0:57:35 > 0:57:38It should be, "Let's go AND fly a kite".
0:57:38 > 0:57:41Walt decided to keep it the way it was.
0:57:41 > 0:57:43But I'm with her.
0:57:45 > 0:57:47I think the wind's finally blowing west.
0:57:49 > 0:57:53# Oh, let's go fly a kite
0:57:53 > 0:57:56# Up to the highest height
0:57:56 > 0:58:00# Let's go fly a kite
0:58:00 > 0:58:04# And send it soaring
0:58:04 > 0:58:07# Up through the atmosphere
0:58:07 > 0:58:11# Up where the air is clear
0:58:11 > 0:58:20# Oh, let's go fly a kite! #