0:00:02 > 0:00:03BBC Four Collections -
0:00:03 > 0:00:06specially-chosen programmes from the BBC archive.
0:00:06 > 0:00:09For this collection, Sir Michael Parkinson has selected
0:00:09 > 0:00:13BBC interviews with influential figures of the 20th century.
0:00:13 > 0:00:14More programmes on this theme
0:00:14 > 0:00:18and other BBC Four collections are available on BBC iPlayer.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44JEREMY ISAACS: 'Maya Angelou,
0:00:44 > 0:00:46'in your life you've been all sorts of things -
0:00:46 > 0:00:49'cook, a conductorette on a tram car,
0:00:49 > 0:00:52'a madam, a prostitute, a dancer, a singer,
0:00:52 > 0:00:55'an actress, a civil rights activist, a writer.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58'What's given you most satisfaction?'
0:00:58 > 0:01:01I'm a writer. That's what I do.
0:01:01 > 0:01:06Um, I'd identify myself to myself as a writer.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08Um...
0:01:10 > 0:01:13I love the sound of the human voice.
0:01:13 > 0:01:16And I love the way
0:01:16 > 0:01:20we try to translate ourselves to each other by language.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22I love it.
0:01:22 > 0:01:23Um...
0:01:24 > 0:01:26I speak a number of languages
0:01:26 > 0:01:29because I do like the sound of the human voice.
0:01:29 > 0:01:36But I also like the... the mystery of language.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39That just... It... It... It's got me.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41I can't get loose.
0:01:41 > 0:01:47'At President Clinton's inauguration, you wrote and performed a poem,
0:01:47 > 0:01:50'On The Pulse Of Morning, and you were the first poet
0:01:50 > 0:01:54'to do so at an inauguration since Robert Frost spoke at Kennedy's.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57'What does that poem, that you spoke then, say to us?'
0:01:57 > 0:01:59It says, in effect,
0:01:59 > 0:02:02what all my work, I hope, says.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04I mean, it is...
0:02:04 > 0:02:07I hear pundits explain that
0:02:07 > 0:02:12writers may say they have six or eight volumes in them,
0:02:12 > 0:02:16or ten, maybe, but they have one theme.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20Well, if I have one - I think I have two -
0:02:20 > 0:02:26but one theme is that human beings are more alike than we are unalike.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28And in everything I write,
0:02:28 > 0:02:32whether it's music and lyrics for Roberta Flack
0:02:32 > 0:02:38or BB King, or poems or books or essays,
0:02:38 > 0:02:40all I'm trying to say,
0:02:40 > 0:02:43or what the main thesis is,
0:02:43 > 0:02:47is human beings are more alike than we are unalike.
0:02:47 > 0:02:53So in the poem On The Pulse Of Morning, I introduce that thesis.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55'What's the other main theme you have?'
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Well, the second, and it may be the first,
0:02:58 > 0:03:04it depends on what time of day I'm talking... But the other is that
0:03:04 > 0:03:08we may encounter many defeats, but we must not be defeated.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12That, in fact, it may be necessary to encounter defeat
0:03:12 > 0:03:16so we can know who the hell we are, what can we overcome,
0:03:16 > 0:03:22what makes us stumble and fall and somehow miraculously rise and go on.
0:03:22 > 0:03:26I know that a diamond is a result of extreme pressure.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28Less time and less pressure
0:03:28 > 0:03:31and it's just crystal or coal or fossilised leaves,
0:03:31 > 0:03:33or just dirt.
0:03:33 > 0:03:39But time and pressure will create a diamond, not...
0:03:39 > 0:03:43I mean, it is considered one of the most beautiful elements
0:03:43 > 0:03:47and it's one of the hardest elements on our planet.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51'A Rock, A River, A Tree, hands working together.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56'Another poet, Norton Tennille, has claimed that he wrote
0:03:56 > 0:04:01'and published ten years ago, a poem that contains the same themes,
0:04:01 > 0:04:04'the same structure and some of the same language.
0:04:04 > 0:04:06'Did you respond to that?'
0:04:06 > 0:04:09No, I didn't. And I wouldn't.
0:04:09 > 0:04:15I think in his poem...I read the poem after he claimed. He used the word
0:04:15 > 0:04:21"rock" and he used, I think, a tree or river, but many poets do that.
0:04:21 > 0:04:26And, um... they were not in that sequence.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29Somewhere in his second verse, he said "a river" or something.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31But, um...
0:04:31 > 0:04:36he and another fellow seemed to have decided that they will
0:04:36 > 0:04:39ride my back into some sort of fame.
0:04:39 > 0:04:44I used the rock, the river and the tree
0:04:44 > 0:04:49because in all my work I go to the African-American canon
0:04:49 > 0:04:54for themes, whether I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings
0:04:54 > 0:05:00or... All my books are entitled, and my poetry, I reach back.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04In the 19th century there was this song about the rock,
0:05:04 > 0:05:09which is still sung in Black churches. It's...um...
0:05:09 > 0:05:12# Oh, I went to the rock to hide my face
0:05:12 > 0:05:15# Rock cried out, no hiding place
0:05:15 > 0:05:19# No hiding place down here... #
0:05:19 > 0:05:23So in my poem, I say the rock says, "You may stand on my back,
0:05:23 > 0:05:25"but don't hide your face."
0:05:26 > 0:05:31And the river is from two songs. It's from...
0:05:31 > 0:05:35# Deep river... #
0:05:35 > 0:05:39But it's also from, um...
0:05:40 > 0:05:42Um, I...
0:05:42 > 0:05:44There's a... Mm, The River Of...
0:05:44 > 0:05:47'The River Of Jordan?'
0:05:47 > 0:05:48No, it's...
0:05:48 > 0:05:51I mean, everybody knows the song, it's, um...
0:05:51 > 0:05:54I Will Study War No More.
0:05:56 > 0:05:57# Oh, I... #
0:05:57 > 0:06:01No, I'm thinking of river, a rock. It's...
0:06:01 > 0:06:04# I'm going to lay down my sword and shield
0:06:04 > 0:06:09# Down by the river side Down by the river side
0:06:09 > 0:06:12# Down by the river side
0:06:12 > 0:06:16# Lay down my sword and shield Down by the river side
0:06:16 > 0:06:20# To study war no more. #
0:06:20 > 0:06:24So in my poem, I say the river sings,
0:06:24 > 0:06:29and says, "If you will put down your arms and study war no more...
0:06:29 > 0:06:31"come."
0:06:31 > 0:06:35And then the last poem, the last image...
0:06:35 > 0:06:37- 'The tree.' - ..is the tree.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40And it was my grandma's favourite song.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42And she sang...
0:06:42 > 0:06:48She was a tall woman, over 6ft... Taller than I, and I'm 6ft.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51And she sang...
0:06:51 > 0:06:55# I shall not, I shall not be moved
0:06:55 > 0:07:00# I shall not, I shall not be moved
0:07:00 > 0:07:05# Just like a tree that's planted by the water
0:07:05 > 0:07:10# Oh, I shall not be moved. #
0:07:10 > 0:07:12So those are the three.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16And throughout the poem, I continue that theme,
0:07:16 > 0:07:19that if you will plant yourself
0:07:19 > 0:07:21beside me, here beside the river,
0:07:21 > 0:07:26and study war no more, then, you know...
0:07:26 > 0:07:29- 'Do you think America listened...' - ..you might survive.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31'Did America listen to your poem?'
0:07:31 > 0:07:35Yes. A number of people listened to the poem.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38- 'I mean...' - Heard it, yes.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40A number of people have heard it.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42And were inspired by it.
0:07:42 > 0:07:48But the poem has been translated, I'm told, into some 41 languages.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51So, um...a lot of people have heard it.
0:07:51 > 0:07:53'Before you'd written a book at all,
0:07:53 > 0:07:58'a publisher told you it was hard to write autobiography as literature.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01'But The Caged Bird is certainly literature,
0:08:01 > 0:08:02'and fine literature at that.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04'Was it hard to write?'
0:08:04 > 0:08:06It was very hard.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09I was suckered into it.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13I mean, you know how the pugilists talk about "a sucker punch"?
0:08:13 > 0:08:20Well, I had gone with James Baldwin to Jules Feiffer's house,
0:08:20 > 0:08:23and Jules was then married to a woman, Judy,
0:08:23 > 0:08:25and all three of them were wits
0:08:25 > 0:08:27and were big talkers.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31So I had to fight for the right to play it good.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33The next day, after the evening
0:08:33 > 0:08:37of great fun and revelry and copious libation
0:08:37 > 0:08:40and so on, this woman, Judy Feiffer,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43called the man who became my editor and said,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46"If you could get the poet Maya Angelou
0:08:46 > 0:08:49"to write a book about her life,
0:08:49 > 0:08:52"you would have something." So he phoned and I said, "No."
0:08:52 > 0:08:55He asked me a second time, I said, "No."
0:08:55 > 0:08:59So I went out to California, I had written ten one-hour programmes,
0:08:59 > 0:09:01a series, for PBS.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05And Bob Loomis phoned the last time, he said,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08"Well, Miss Angelou, I'm just glad
0:09:08 > 0:09:13"you don't try to write an autobiography,
0:09:13 > 0:09:17"because to write autobiography as literature is impossible."
0:09:17 > 0:09:20So I said, "Well, let me try!"
0:09:20 > 0:09:23But I'm sure James Baldwin had called him,
0:09:23 > 0:09:24because that's something...
0:09:24 > 0:09:28Even now, I still jump when that button is pushed.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30I'm not proud of that.
0:09:30 > 0:09:35I would like to become, to grow into the person who says,
0:09:35 > 0:09:38"Oh, you pushed that button, I shall not jump."
0:09:38 > 0:09:41But I haven't grown that far yet.
0:09:41 > 0:09:42'Was it hard to remember?
0:09:42 > 0:09:46'Had you buried the memories of your early life?'
0:09:47 > 0:09:50I don't think so. Um...
0:09:52 > 0:09:54I had...
0:09:54 > 0:09:57I have a strange kind of memory,
0:09:57 > 0:10:04and I think it is a physiological difference in my brain.
0:10:04 > 0:10:06Because I didn't speak for years.
0:10:06 > 0:10:10And I think those areas of the brain which would have dealt with
0:10:10 > 0:10:17the vocalisation and articulation of ideas had gone.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21I think that the brain just went somewhere else.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24It just said, "OK, I'm not jumping from here to there
0:10:24 > 0:10:26"so I'll jump from here to there."
0:10:26 > 0:10:28And I have a strange kind of memory.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32Um...
0:10:32 > 0:10:36A lot of the people I've written about are still alive.
0:10:36 > 0:10:41'Tell me... I talked to a writer the other day in this series,
0:10:41 > 0:10:45'the English writer and novelist Jeanette Winterson, and she said,
0:10:45 > 0:10:48'"There's no such thing as autobiography.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50'"There's only art and lies."'
0:10:50 > 0:10:52SHE LAUGHS
0:10:52 > 0:10:55I love that! Well...that's good.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57'Do you reckon you're...?
0:10:57 > 0:11:00'To what extent is the book a construct
0:11:00 > 0:11:03'and to what extent is it reportage of what actually happened?'
0:11:03 > 0:11:06Oh, no, I think that that's a wonderful statement,
0:11:06 > 0:11:09because all art is lies, all lies are art.
0:11:09 > 0:11:13It's like all riddles are blues and all blues are sad.
0:11:13 > 0:11:15Or funny, or something.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18I mean, you can't say that...
0:11:18 > 0:11:22that I have spoken truth to you,
0:11:22 > 0:11:27even though I say this is a red blouse.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31Now, red to me may mean something utterly different to you.
0:11:31 > 0:11:39And so, my attempt to translate, to describe what I see,
0:11:39 > 0:11:43may be so absolutely different.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47What I mean by square may mean something other than
0:11:47 > 0:11:50what you mean by square.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52- Um... - 'Tell me...'
0:11:52 > 0:11:55Let me just finish this. I love that.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59I believe...
0:12:01 > 0:12:05..that people can tell so many facts that they obscure the truth.
0:12:07 > 0:12:12You can describe the places where, the people who, the times when,
0:12:12 > 0:12:15the methods how, et cetera.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17And never get to the truth of the matter.
0:12:18 > 0:12:23You just blind people with data and numbers and stuff.
0:12:23 > 0:12:24Percentages.
0:12:24 > 0:12:29But the heart of the thing is lost, or beshrouded.
0:12:30 > 0:12:36Now, I have no hesitation in trying to get to the truth of the matter.
0:12:37 > 0:12:42And putting five or six facts and pieces of data together,
0:12:42 > 0:12:43to try to show,
0:12:43 > 0:12:47"Look at this, look at this, this is human, this is who we are,
0:12:47 > 0:12:48"this is what we can stand."
0:12:49 > 0:12:53So, art and lies, I like that.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56'Tell me about your childhood. Who was your father?'
0:12:56 > 0:12:59My father was Bailey Johnson.
0:12:59 > 0:13:07My father was born to a woman who was a...a tree, really.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10I mean, she was...
0:13:10 > 0:13:15And at 16, he left home, he left this little village in the South
0:13:15 > 0:13:20where my grandmother owned the only Black-owned store in the town.
0:13:20 > 0:13:26He left and joined up, put his age up and went to World War I.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28And learnt French.
0:13:29 > 0:13:34And came back much too grand for his skin,
0:13:34 > 0:13:38for his skin colour at the time.
0:13:38 > 0:13:40He thought that he...
0:13:40 > 0:13:44He was handsome, he spoke French,
0:13:44 > 0:13:50he was debonair and he would've been lynched in the South.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52'Right.'
0:13:52 > 0:13:59So he became a doorman at a swank hotel in Los Angeles.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03And he wore a uniform.
0:14:03 > 0:14:04I have photographs.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07He wore the uniform as if he was a major in the army.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09It was just...
0:14:09 > 0:14:11'And your mother? Who was she?'
0:14:11 > 0:14:16My mother was a very pretty woman from St Louis and, um...
0:14:16 > 0:14:19who loved him quite a lot.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21Fortunately for myself, for my brother,
0:14:21 > 0:14:27for the welfare and weel of my country, they separated soon -
0:14:27 > 0:14:31they were absolutely too volatile to be together.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33But she was a very pretty woman
0:14:33 > 0:14:37and a very bright woman, and very courageous.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41'She worked hard and sent you, when you were three, away.'
0:14:41 > 0:14:43- Yes. - 'She sent you to your grandmother.'
0:14:43 > 0:14:46- To my paternal grandmother at that. - 'Right.'
0:14:46 > 0:14:49'Was there any sense of rejection on your part at that time?'
0:14:49 > 0:14:52Absolutely. I thought it was the worst thing.
0:14:52 > 0:14:54I just declared her dead,
0:14:54 > 0:14:58so that I wouldn't have to long for her.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02Um...yes, it was terrible rejection.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05My brother has never recovered.
0:15:05 > 0:15:07'What was your grandmother like?'
0:15:07 > 0:15:09Aah, Momma!
0:15:09 > 0:15:11She was just the best.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13She spoke softly.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16She walked very straight.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18And she was severe.
0:15:18 > 0:15:24So that people who owed us money really disliked her.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27Because she never gave anybody...
0:15:27 > 0:15:31She didn't seem to have any laxity in herself -
0:15:31 > 0:15:36physically, or in her personality.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39It was one way, that was the way.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42So I got a whipping once when I was very young,
0:15:42 > 0:15:47because I said, "By the way," to my brother.
0:15:47 > 0:15:48My grandmother whipped me.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51She said... I mean switched, you know.
0:15:51 > 0:15:55But she said, "Jesus was the Way, the Truth and the Light,"
0:15:55 > 0:15:59and I had said, "By the way," which meant "by Jesus",
0:15:59 > 0:16:01which was a way of saying, "By God,"
0:16:01 > 0:16:04and she would have no cursing in her house.
0:16:04 > 0:16:09So I mean, she was just...stern.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11'Your mother sent for you back to St Louis.'
0:16:11 > 0:16:12Yes.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16'And at the age of seven or eight...'
0:16:16 > 0:16:17Seven.
0:16:17 > 0:16:21'..seven, you were raped by one of her boyfriends.
0:16:22 > 0:16:26'There's an extraordinary brief passage in the book
0:16:26 > 0:16:29'in which you describe that experience.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31- 'Can you repeat it?' - I can't repeat it.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34'Do you mind if I repeat it? Cos it brings...'
0:16:34 > 0:16:37Let me try to tell you about it.
0:16:37 > 0:16:38Er...
0:16:41 > 0:16:44I know that he was longing...
0:16:44 > 0:16:47This is not an apologia for him,
0:16:47 > 0:16:53but I know that he was intoxicated with my mother.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56Most men were, for years.
0:16:57 > 0:17:05And she lived outside, and she was funny and clever and cute and that.
0:17:05 > 0:17:10And I think in his rage at his inability to control her
0:17:10 > 0:17:17and have her when he wanted, I think he raped me in rage.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20Er...
0:17:20 > 0:17:23I don't condone that.
0:17:23 > 0:17:29But as an adult, I try to understand what provokes
0:17:29 > 0:17:33and impels people into and out of things.
0:17:34 > 0:17:35Er...
0:17:37 > 0:17:41'At the time, it was an appalling trauma.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43'How did you recover from that?'
0:17:43 > 0:17:46I don't know if I've ever recovered.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48I operate in the familiar.
0:17:48 > 0:17:53And because I don't carry the bitterness of it,
0:17:53 > 0:17:56I've not been as wounded...
0:17:56 > 0:17:58I was terribly wounded at first,
0:17:58 > 0:18:07but the wounds become scars and the scars become...sacr...
0:18:07 > 0:18:10Well, just...little pieces of cosmetics.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13'Is that the advice you would give to people
0:18:13 > 0:18:15'whose dear ones suffer such a trauma?'
0:18:15 > 0:18:18I would say to everybody, whether the dear one
0:18:18 > 0:18:21or the person herself or himself,
0:18:21 > 0:18:23I would say, do your best not to...
0:18:23 > 0:18:28give passage and harbour to bitterness.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30Bitterness is stupid.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33It's like cancer, it eats upon the host.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36Doesn't do a damn thing to the object.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39So try not to be bitter, cos that's silly.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43I mean, that's a waste of energy, and almost a waste of life.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45To be angry is very good, I think.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48Anger is like fire, it burns things out,
0:18:48 > 0:18:52and leaves nutrients in the soil and so forth.
0:18:52 > 0:18:53I think that's good.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57We should always be ready to be angry at injustice and cruelty.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59But not to be bitter.
0:18:59 > 0:19:01'You told the rapist's name,
0:19:01 > 0:19:06'and the next day, I think, he was beaten to death.'
0:19:06 > 0:19:09- Well... - 'Was that a direct consequence?'
0:19:09 > 0:19:13Well, he was put in jail, and he was freed in one day.
0:19:13 > 0:19:18He was put in jail, and he spent one day.
0:19:18 > 0:19:24And the police came by my maternal grandmother's house
0:19:24 > 0:19:28and told her that he had been found dead,
0:19:28 > 0:19:32and it seemed he'd been kicked to death.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34I was seven and a half.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38I thought my voice had actually killed him.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40And so...
0:19:43 > 0:19:45..I stopped talking.
0:19:45 > 0:19:47It seemed to me it was very dangerous.
0:19:47 > 0:19:53That if my voice could kill people like that, then if I spoke,
0:19:53 > 0:19:57anybody might just get downed.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01I felt I could speak to my grandma, and sometimes I did.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03'You took a conscious decision not to speak.'
0:20:03 > 0:20:04Yes.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06And you held to that for how long?
0:20:06 > 0:20:08Almost six years.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10'How did that affect your schooling?
0:20:10 > 0:20:13'You went back to Stamps in Arkansas, how did...?'
0:20:13 > 0:20:14I was an A student.
0:20:14 > 0:20:19But you see, also, my grandmother, again, owned most of the land.
0:20:19 > 0:20:21And Momma was Momma.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25So all the teachers who came... It was the South,
0:20:25 > 0:20:28and there were no boarding houses for Black teachers.
0:20:28 > 0:20:34They would come from the big city, like Little Rock or Pine Bluff,
0:20:34 > 0:20:37to this village, and they would have to live with people,
0:20:37 > 0:20:39you know, who had houses.
0:20:39 > 0:20:43Well, as soon as the teachers would move in, they would be told,
0:20:43 > 0:20:48"Sister Henderson's granddaughter doesn't speak."
0:20:48 > 0:20:52So I wrote everything on the blackboard.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55I had a tablet which I tucked into my skirt,
0:20:55 > 0:20:58and if I had a dress I would have a belt.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00Tie belt, and tuck it in.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02And I wrote everything.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06- 'And you read.' - I read.
0:21:06 > 0:21:10'And you say that you discovered Shakespeare at Stamps.'
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Yeah, at about ten. Nine or ten.
0:21:14 > 0:21:15It was amazing.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18I couldn't believe that he was White!
0:21:19 > 0:21:20Really.
0:21:20 > 0:21:24Because, I mean, his language was complicated,
0:21:24 > 0:21:30but I read the sonnets, and I memorised 50 sonnets.
0:21:30 > 0:21:31Er...
0:21:31 > 0:21:34But the one, one of them...
0:21:34 > 0:21:38I mean, I loved a number of them, but the one that made me think,
0:21:38 > 0:21:43"How could he know what it feels like to be me?" is -
0:21:43 > 0:21:47When, in disgrace with fortune and men's eyes
0:21:47 > 0:21:53I all alone bemoan my outcast state
0:21:53 > 0:21:58And trouble a deaf Heaven with my bootless cries
0:21:58 > 0:22:01And look upon myself and curse my fate
0:22:01 > 0:22:04Wishing me like one more rich in hope
0:22:04 > 0:22:07Featured like him Like him with friends possessed
0:22:07 > 0:22:10Desiring that man's art and that man's scope
0:22:10 > 0:22:13And with what I most enjoy contented least.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18How could he know that, almost five centuries earlier?
0:22:18 > 0:22:21Oh, no. I mean, I wouldn't have been too surprised
0:22:21 > 0:22:25if somebody had shown me that he was really a Black girl in Stamps.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31'The Ku Klux Klan were at work
0:22:31 > 0:22:35'in your childhood, in your town.'
0:22:36 > 0:22:40- Were people scared of them? - 'Absolutely.'
0:22:40 > 0:22:44And in my town, they didn't wear sheets.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46They didn't have to.
0:22:46 > 0:22:51They had such power that they could ride over into the Black area,
0:22:51 > 0:22:54threaten, kill and maim people,
0:22:54 > 0:22:57just because they didn't agree with God's choice
0:22:57 > 0:22:59for the colours of the people's skin.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01And they didn't wear sheets.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03'And when you stood up to them -
0:23:03 > 0:23:06'or rather, when you expressed your views to White people
0:23:06 > 0:23:08'in the other part of the town -
0:23:08 > 0:23:12'your family told you that was dangerous, and said to shut up...'
0:23:12 > 0:23:14- And get out. - '..and take care, and get out.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19'Did your mother ever talk to you
0:23:19 > 0:23:22'later on in your relationship with her about the rape?
0:23:22 > 0:23:24'Did she feel responsible for it
0:23:24 > 0:23:27- 'in any way?' - Not a word. She really...
0:23:27 > 0:23:34She was a very passionate woman, very...
0:23:34 > 0:23:40She held her anger like...
0:23:40 > 0:23:45some people hold banners. Flags.
0:23:45 > 0:23:50She was very proud of her anger. It described her to herself.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54'It was her boyfriend, she never apologised to you for what happened?'
0:23:54 > 0:23:58No. She wouldn't have... I mean, no.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00No, she wasn't that sort of person.
0:24:00 > 0:24:05'You had both a glamorous, loving, working mother,
0:24:05 > 0:24:09'and also a very strong grandmother.
0:24:09 > 0:24:14'You had a supportive extended family.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16'Is that characteristic of Negro society?'
0:24:16 > 0:24:21Well...I had a wonderful uncle, too. And I think...
0:24:21 > 0:24:23And my brother, of course.
0:24:23 > 0:24:28But my uncle was very supportive and very encouraging.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31He believed I could do things.
0:24:31 > 0:24:36And, er, I have to mention his name.
0:24:36 > 0:24:40'Do those sort of hopes still persist in the South?'
0:24:40 > 0:24:42In some places, yes.
0:24:42 > 0:24:47In the areas where they don't, we see the statistics,
0:24:47 > 0:24:52the painful taunting, the tales of brutality
0:24:52 > 0:24:56- and random violence and that. - 'You mean in the inner cities?'
0:24:56 > 0:24:59Yes, and in the South as well.
0:24:59 > 0:25:00Yes.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05'Er, you became the first Black conductorette.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07'How did you get that job?'
0:25:07 > 0:25:11Well, I wanted a job, and I was 16...
0:25:11 > 0:25:13I was 15, and, er...
0:25:15 > 0:25:17..my mother said, "Go get a job."
0:25:17 > 0:25:20And I was ahead in my classwork,
0:25:20 > 0:25:25and I'd been down visiting my dad to disastrous results.
0:25:25 > 0:25:29And so my mom said I could work for the next three months.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33So I wanted to get a job on the street cars
0:25:33 > 0:25:35because I saw women on the street cars.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38I didn't notice that they were only White.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42But they had changers, coin changers.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45And wore caps with bibs, and jackets.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47They looked just it.
0:25:47 > 0:25:50So I thought, "I'll get myself a job."
0:25:50 > 0:25:52I was 6ft tall and White people
0:25:52 > 0:25:57didn't know how Black people looked anyway, how old one was.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00So I went down and they wouldn't even accept...
0:26:00 > 0:26:04I mean, they wouldn't give me a form, an application form.
0:26:04 > 0:26:08I came back home devastated, to my mom.
0:26:08 > 0:26:10And she asked me, "Do you know why they wouldn't?"
0:26:10 > 0:26:12I said, "Yes, because I'm Black."
0:26:12 > 0:26:14She said, "That's right. Do you want it?"
0:26:14 > 0:26:17I said, "Yes." She said, "Go get it."
0:26:17 > 0:26:23So, she said she would give me lunch money and car fare and I should go
0:26:23 > 0:26:27every day and be there before the secretaries go in,
0:26:27 > 0:26:30and sit there and read.
0:26:30 > 0:26:34Go out to lunch, but be back before the secretaries, wait at the door.
0:26:34 > 0:26:36Be there.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40Well, by about the fourth day I was so tired of this thing,
0:26:40 > 0:26:43I wanted to give up, I wanted to go home.
0:26:43 > 0:26:47But Mom... I mean, Mom, she asked me, "Do you want it?"
0:26:47 > 0:26:49I said, "Yes." She said, "Get it."
0:26:49 > 0:26:53So I couldn't fold, you know?
0:26:53 > 0:26:56I really was tired of it, but I stuck it.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58And after a month, I got the job.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02'Looking for sexual experience, you asked a young man
0:27:02 > 0:27:04'to have intercourse with you and got pregnant.'
0:27:04 > 0:27:06Yes.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08'Was it easy to be a mother at the age of 17?'
0:27:10 > 0:27:13Well, it wasn't easy.
0:27:13 > 0:27:15But my mom didn't put me down.
0:27:15 > 0:27:21I mean, I didn't let her know until three weeks before my child was born.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23She delivered him.
0:27:23 > 0:27:24She asked me, "Do you love the boy?"
0:27:24 > 0:27:27I said, "No." She asked, "Does he love you?" I said, "No."
0:27:27 > 0:27:30She said, "well, then, there's no point in ruining three lives.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33"We have a baby, we're going to have a baby."
0:27:33 > 0:27:36And, um, my son...
0:27:36 > 0:27:42I mean, if I have a monument in the world, my son is my monument.
0:27:42 > 0:27:46He says I shouldn't say that, that he should be his own monument.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49But he's not here, I can say it!
0:27:49 > 0:27:55'Later on, hard put to earn a living, and for other reasons,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58'you became briefly a prostitute.'
0:27:58 > 0:27:59Well, it wasn't...
0:27:59 > 0:28:03I think it was...because...
0:28:03 > 0:28:07the fellow I liked told me he was desperate.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11And I was so green!
0:28:11 > 0:28:14I mean, I was 18 or something.
0:28:14 > 0:28:18I think at 18, people probably should all be put out in pens, you know!
0:28:20 > 0:28:26Fresh meat thrown to them until they become acclimatised and socialised.
0:28:26 > 0:28:28I tell you why I wrote that, though.
0:28:28 > 0:28:34I wrote about that in a book called Gather Together In My Name
0:28:34 > 0:28:39because so many adults told, and tell, young people,
0:28:39 > 0:28:42"I've never done anything wrong.
0:28:42 > 0:28:47"My closet is free of spectres and ghosts and skeletons.
0:28:47 > 0:28:49"My dad would've killed... My mother...
0:28:49 > 0:28:51"I was so good."
0:28:51 > 0:28:53And so young men and women must think,
0:28:53 > 0:28:56"Damn, there's something wrong with me.
0:28:56 > 0:29:00"My parents are so good and so pure."
0:29:00 > 0:29:05So I thought, they could all gather together in my name.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08I would tell the children, "Listen, I've done this.
0:29:08 > 0:29:10"This has happened.
0:29:10 > 0:29:14"I have forgiven myself, I have gotten up and this has happened."
0:29:14 > 0:29:20I was afraid that when I told it that there would be a sort of worldwide,
0:29:20 > 0:29:25or certainly nationwide, sneering at me.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27Just the opposite.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29Just the opposite happened.
0:29:29 > 0:29:35People were so grateful that somebody told the children, "Listen, dear,
0:29:35 > 0:29:39"you may make many mistakes, you may be defeated,
0:29:39 > 0:29:41"but you must not be defeated.
0:29:41 > 0:29:44"You may encounter defeats."
0:29:44 > 0:29:49'How did you avoid the mistake of getting on to heavy drugs?'
0:29:49 > 0:29:52Well, a man was very kind to me.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55A man who used drugs, who was a boyfriend.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00He took me to a...
0:30:01 > 0:30:03..shooting gallery,
0:30:03 > 0:30:06where they shoot up drugs.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09And I didn't even know he used drugs.
0:30:09 > 0:30:13But he took me, and he brought me into the bathroom
0:30:13 > 0:30:16and leaned against the door so I couldn't get out.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19And he rolled up his sleeve and he took his tie.
0:30:19 > 0:30:20And I started crying.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23He said, "Watch it, look at this."
0:30:23 > 0:30:26And he fished around with the needle.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30And I was crying and he just forced me to look.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32And finally he found the needle...the vein.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35And he untied this tie.
0:30:35 > 0:30:36And you could see the drugs.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39I mean, you could see his face.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43Almost like in slow motion.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47Almost like a melting down, like a Dali-esque painting.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50You could see the tension go out.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52He said, "Now, do you want some?"
0:30:54 > 0:30:57"Absolutely not!"
0:30:57 > 0:31:03So I've never been tempted, I have never sniffed it or smoked it or...
0:31:04 > 0:31:07That was a very kind thing for him to do.
0:31:07 > 0:31:11'You were a dancer, you discovered you could dance,
0:31:11 > 0:31:15'and you performed in the great, famous tour of Porgy And Bess.'
0:31:15 > 0:31:17Yes.
0:31:17 > 0:31:21'Did you know you could be an entertainer of that quality?'
0:31:23 > 0:31:24Um, yes.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26I had studied dance,
0:31:26 > 0:31:32and I always thought I would do something quite wonderful.
0:31:32 > 0:31:35Whatever I did, I was going to do it as well as I could.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38I thought at one time I was going to become a real estate broker
0:31:38 > 0:31:40and have my own briefcase
0:31:40 > 0:31:42and high-heeled matching shoes.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44I was going to do that.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49'One of your marriages, a marriage to a member,
0:31:49 > 0:31:52'I think, of the Pan-African Congress, took you to Cairo.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55'Then from there, you went on to Ghana.
0:31:55 > 0:31:59'What did you learn about the world in Africa?'
0:31:59 > 0:32:04I was quite surprised to find that a number of Africanisms, or what
0:32:04 > 0:32:10I thought were Afro-Americanisms, really had their origin in Africa.
0:32:10 > 0:32:17I had been up on the soapbox with everybody else, including Malcolm,
0:32:17 > 0:32:22saying that our culture was taken from us by slavery.
0:32:23 > 0:32:25Not so. Not so.
0:32:25 > 0:32:31So many things I had grown up knowing and in using - ways of speaking,
0:32:31 > 0:32:35ways of moving, ways of treating other people -
0:32:35 > 0:32:38I found to be Africanisms.
0:32:38 > 0:32:43That was a fabulous experience.
0:32:43 > 0:32:47I got off a plane in Kano, Nigeria.
0:32:47 > 0:32:51I had taken the Egyptian airline to Kano.
0:32:51 > 0:32:57I got off the plane and a young Black man, in white shirt, white knickers,
0:32:57 > 0:33:00epaulettes, a cap...
0:33:00 > 0:33:03I'd never seen a Black man on a tarmac
0:33:03 > 0:33:07in anything other than a cleaning uniform.
0:33:07 > 0:33:11And this fellow saluted as the people deplaned,
0:33:11 > 0:33:13all the Europeans and Egyptians.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16"Good afternoon. Welcome to Kano. Welcome. Welcome."
0:33:16 > 0:33:18And when I came down,
0:33:18 > 0:33:25a beam of smile went right to his ears and he said, "Welcome, Auntie."
0:33:25 > 0:33:27I thought, "Wait a minute."
0:33:27 > 0:33:29But that's how I would have been addressed
0:33:29 > 0:33:34by a young person in the South.
0:33:34 > 0:33:38'Have your books changed the way that Black Americans see the world?
0:33:40 > 0:33:42'Or the way that we see Black Americans?'
0:33:42 > 0:33:45Some people say so, it's not for me to say that.
0:33:46 > 0:33:50'You've often been described as a feminist writer.
0:33:50 > 0:33:51'Are you a feminist writer?'
0:33:51 > 0:33:54Well, I'm a female and I'm a writer.
0:33:54 > 0:33:56Um, I don't know if that's so.
0:33:56 > 0:34:02'You once said that feminism didn't offer much to Black American women.'
0:34:02 > 0:34:04Oh, well, maybe that was early on.
0:34:04 > 0:34:06I don't know about feminism, anyway.
0:34:06 > 0:34:09I know about woman-ism.
0:34:09 > 0:34:10I know something about that.
0:34:10 > 0:34:16Sometimes, feminists can be...
0:34:16 > 0:34:21Feminism can be...not very inviting.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24And I like very much...
0:34:24 > 0:34:26I like being a woman...a lot.
0:34:28 > 0:34:32And being a Black American woman even more.
0:34:32 > 0:34:36I do know that there's a difference between being an old female
0:34:36 > 0:34:38and being a woman.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41Born with certain genitalia, if you live long enough
0:34:41 > 0:34:45and don't get run over by a truck or eaten up by a lion or something,
0:34:45 > 0:34:48then you can be an old female.
0:34:48 > 0:34:53But to be a woman...is so inviting.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55It's the same being a man.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58You can have certain genitalia and live long enough,
0:34:58 > 0:34:59you'll be an old male.
0:34:59 > 0:35:06But to be a man is to have some grace and some humour, some passion,
0:35:06 > 0:35:07some compassion.
0:35:09 > 0:35:10It's a wonderful thing.
0:35:10 > 0:35:15'Is there anything you regret in your life, anything you regret not doing?'
0:35:15 > 0:35:20Hmm, that's a waste of time, isn't it?
0:35:20 > 0:35:21I don't know.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23- 'Do you have fears, at all?' - Mm-hm.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26I feared coming on this programme.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31'I hope you're not frightened now.'
0:35:31 > 0:35:35Mm, I will be over my fear when the programme is finished.
0:35:35 > 0:35:40No, but really, I have agreed that I will die.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43I admit that.
0:35:43 > 0:35:47Once I get that far, I'm all right.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50Because I understand that is the big bugaboo,
0:35:50 > 0:35:53and I will do that, ready or not.
0:35:53 > 0:35:57So if I can do that, and will, then...
0:35:58 > 0:36:02'What's the task you've set yourself before you die?'
0:36:04 > 0:36:05I want to... So many things.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07I want to be a Christian.
0:36:09 > 0:36:11That's a really hard matter.
0:36:11 > 0:36:15It's like being a Jew or a Muslim, Buddhist, Shintoist.
0:36:15 > 0:36:18I'm always amazed when people walk up and say, "I'm a Christian."
0:36:18 > 0:36:22I think, "Already? Damn!"
0:36:22 > 0:36:26I'm working so hard at it, to BE it.
0:36:26 > 0:36:30I really would like to BE it,
0:36:30 > 0:36:35a kind person, an inclusive person.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41Merciful, even.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45Not just...just, but merciful.
0:36:45 > 0:36:46I'd like that.
0:36:46 > 0:36:51I blow it all the time and I probably will die not having come close to it,
0:36:51 > 0:36:53but I love it.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55So that may help.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58That may go down up in heaven on my side.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01'How would you like us to remember you?'
0:37:03 > 0:37:08As a...woman who is mostly funny,
0:37:08 > 0:37:12cheerful, with some courage.
0:37:15 > 0:37:18And who has enough courage to love somebody.
0:37:19 > 0:37:20'Are you in love now?'
0:37:20 > 0:37:21Yes!
0:37:23 > 0:37:25Yes.
0:37:25 > 0:37:27Yes, yes, yes!
0:37:27 > 0:37:29Yes, I am in love. Yes!