:00:00. > :00:15.this month: As the world mourns his death, the life of Mandela on film.
:00:16. > :00:23.A movie about an unknown musician from the Coen brothers. A dramatic
:00:24. > :00:31.detective stories. Visions of war and health from the
:00:32. > :00:37.Chapman brothers. And music from Primal Scream. Coming up: The Great
:00:38. > :00:41.Train Robbery from the point of view of the cops.
:00:42. > :00:48.And some surprising selections for this year's best book from my
:00:49. > :00:56.guess, Paul Morley, AL Kennedy and James Delingpole. When guests at the
:00:57. > :00:59.premiere of Mandela: Long Walk To Freedom entered the cinema on
:01:00. > :01:05.Thursday night, they had no idea that the subject of the film had in
:01:06. > :01:10.fact died that evening. The movie, based on his 1994 autobiography,
:01:11. > :01:15.spans being tyre life of the man whose generosity of spirit made him
:01:16. > :01:18.the best loved leader of the world. So does this film do justice to this
:01:19. > :01:33.titanic figure? I have cherished the ideal of a
:01:34. > :01:38.free, democratic society, where all persons live together in harmony
:01:39. > :01:45.with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and
:01:46. > :01:55.achieve. But, if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to
:01:56. > :01:58.die. The man's life in its completeness is extraordinary. What
:01:59. > :02:06.is come from and been through in order to deliver the punch at the
:02:07. > :02:14.end, the political and moral punch. We realised we would have to tell
:02:15. > :02:22.the whole life. It was a 2-person story, the story of Mandela and
:02:23. > :02:26.Winnie. It is a love story in the most incredible way. It tracks the
:02:27. > :02:33.political path that were opened to Mandela. For the first time, his
:02:34. > :02:42.wife felt, that is why she became such a rage machine. Usually they
:02:43. > :02:47.wait until just before the girls come back from school to take me
:02:48. > :02:56.away. So the girls will find an empty home. They think about these
:02:57. > :03:07.things, you know. They think about me a lot. What Mandela and his
:03:08. > :03:12.colleagues did was they actually changed the whole society without
:03:13. > :03:16.warfare. A revolution without blood. I want the film to be entertaining
:03:17. > :03:21.and educational, but most of all, I want them to realise there was a
:03:22. > :03:32.fantastic moral power. Because that applies to anywhere in the world. If
:03:33. > :03:38.you can do it, so can we. So, that was the screenwriter there
:03:39. > :03:40.talking about taking a deep breath, deciding they were going to cover
:03:41. > :03:47.the whole life of Nelson Mandela. This is ambitious. Yes, and I think
:03:48. > :03:54.it was a mistake. I would have called it the long night of Gordon.
:03:55. > :04:06.-- boredom. I think it would've been more interesting if they had named
:04:07. > :04:13.it Young Mandela. One didn't really get to know him at all. I suppose
:04:14. > :04:19.the idea was to introduce his life to a generation who might not know
:04:20. > :04:25.the complexity of his story. If you look at an equivalent film, Gandhi
:04:26. > :04:32.is pretty much 50 minutes longer and it kind of cuts to the chase a bit
:04:33. > :04:36.more. You cannot afford to lose an hour, because you lose the key
:04:37. > :04:41.thing, the Robben Island experience, why you find out how
:04:42. > :04:44.this terrible experience would allow you to make an extraordinary
:04:45. > :04:53.decision to not respond to hate with hate. The performance by Idris Elba
:04:54. > :05:02.is wonderful. But his story is so fragmented that you lose Nelson as
:05:03. > :05:10.soon as he goes into Robben Island and you get him back when it comes
:05:11. > :05:13.out with all these lapidary sayings. I think it you want to say to
:05:14. > :05:20.people, you can make these wonderful things happen as well, it is more of
:05:21. > :05:24.a shame that you don't see the process, you don't see how they
:05:25. > :05:32.turned the prison around. Using non-violent tactics, the guys in
:05:33. > :05:33.their really did an extraordinary thing which you don't quite
:05:34. > :05:41.understand. They took one issue the understand. They took one issue, the
:05:42. > :05:44.battle not to wear shorts. They made that symbolic of the kind of changes
:05:45. > :05:51.that Mandela and his fellow prisoners wanted to make. That was
:05:52. > :06:00.the problem, everybody -- every thing became sketchy because they
:06:01. > :06:09.were trying to hack in so much. By the very nature of wanting to put so
:06:10. > :06:13.much in, we get very little. Between 1970 and 1990, that was symbolised
:06:14. > :06:18.I'd just a little bit more grey hair. What you mentioned, they want
:06:19. > :06:22.to appeal to people who don't know the story, I think that is a real
:06:23. > :06:27.problem. That should not be the case. They have to tell a
:06:28. > :06:31.sophisticated, complicated, brilliant story about a complicated
:06:32. > :06:34.man rather than reducing it to those that don't really know the story. In
:06:35. > :06:42.the end, we end up with something bland. If you look at his first
:06:43. > :06:49.marriage, you do see Nelson Mandela hitting his first wife, we see his
:06:50. > :06:55.womanising. It is not a hagiography. I thought it was actually not a
:06:56. > :07:01.subtle film. It was too black-and-white, you might say, in
:07:02. > :07:05.its portrayal. We are all aware the apartheid up -- regime was not
:07:06. > :07:10.pleasant, but it seemed all the white characters were rather scrawny
:07:11. > :07:13.looking, as if the casting people had gone overboard in trying to find
:07:14. > :07:22.the most un-attractive people they could find. Of course there were
:07:23. > :07:25.white people who supported him. I would like to know more about the
:07:26. > :07:36.white communists who sheltered him at the farm where he was eventually
:07:37. > :07:45.captured. But the story of him and Winnie was interesting, wasn't it
:07:46. > :07:50.primer -- wasn't it? Her story is the only one which really survives
:07:51. > :07:54.intact. But my understanding was the press cutting that was given to him
:07:55. > :07:59.in prison relating to her being unfaithful in marriage, that was
:08:00. > :08:06.odd. I don't know if there were to press clippings. I wanted to know
:08:07. > :08:09.why they kept cutting away to this is what the American news
:08:10. > :08:13.broadcasters... I mean, I know it is because they are making the film for
:08:14. > :08:19.America, but if they were making a film about an American civil rights
:08:20. > :08:27.activist, they wouldn't be cutting away to news clips from other
:08:28. > :08:30.countries. Over time, all the bits that were edgy and complicated got
:08:31. > :08:38.taken away so that we were left with what ultimately became almost like a
:08:39. > :08:44.daytime movie romance. And the music, the strings that went out of
:08:45. > :08:47.fashion in the 1970s, I could not understand that element. That
:08:48. > :08:52.symbolised how weak the film was, to really celebrate and represent an
:08:53. > :08:58.extraordinary figure. Such a missed opportunity. But the thing was, we
:08:59. > :09:01.had to have this film. And it must've been complicated to make. So
:09:02. > :09:05.all we get is a series of compromises. So would it have been
:09:06. > :09:11.better to focus on the young Mandela? Or the prison. There is
:09:12. > :09:20.nothing like a good prison movie. This could have been the Shawshank
:09:21. > :09:23.redemption with knobs on. How did he cope, particularly in the early
:09:24. > :09:26.stages when they didn't have any books to read? How did they stop
:09:27. > :09:43.going mad? This is an interesting story. And he was a lawyer, he was
:09:44. > :09:50.very intellectual. But it is difficult to show the life of the
:09:51. > :09:53.mind, isn't it? I think it is hard in general to do it, because
:09:54. > :09:57.ultimately it has to be entertainment, but that is the
:09:58. > :10:07.problem. They had a shot of him doing press ups. For crying out
:10:08. > :10:13.loud. It was such a shame. Idris Elba 's's performance, that wasn't
:10:14. > :10:24.hollow. Nobody in their wasn't good. His mother was fantastic. I think it
:10:25. > :10:31.was an impersonation, not a performance. Whatever our panel made
:10:32. > :10:35.of the film, I'm sure there will be many who want to find out more about
:10:36. > :10:41.his life through Mandela: Long Walk To Freedom, in cinemas on January
:10:42. > :10:45.the 3rd. Now, to a fictional character whose
:10:46. > :10:55.life is lived in blanket obscurity, in the new film from the Coen
:10:56. > :11:00.brothers. Inside Llewyn Davis follows the misfortunes of a
:11:01. > :11:03.talented but luckless folk musician. Living in a magic existence, he
:11:04. > :11:10.relies on papers from friends and his haphazard agent to eat out a
:11:11. > :11:28.living. Nobody knew was when we were a duo. It's not like we were a big
:11:29. > :11:33.act. Mel? How are you doing, kid? I would say he is definitely a loner.
:11:34. > :11:36.Not by choice, but just at this point he is having a hard time
:11:37. > :11:41.relating to people. He's been so compressed by life that he doesn't
:11:42. > :11:46.have the energy for empathy. This is one of those guys who has something
:11:47. > :11:49.to say, knows what he wants to say, has the means to express it, but
:11:50. > :11:56.people aren't interested in listening.
:11:57. > :12:00.There is someone special in the audience tonight you might get up
:12:01. > :12:13.and held me if you would give him a round of applause. The Coen brothers
:12:14. > :12:19.have taken great pains to recreate the Greenwich Village folk scene of
:12:20. > :12:22.the 1960s. Soundtrack is curated I T Bone Burnett to previously
:12:23. > :12:30.collaborated with the brothers on O Brother, Where Art Thou? . You know
:12:31. > :12:36.the saying, there is no failure like success. These were guys that were
:12:37. > :12:42.just making the rounds, living like farmers. They were ploughing the
:12:43. > :12:47.fields and putting in the seeds and harvesting, just going around doing
:12:48. > :12:48.their work. They weren't thinking about making a new form of music
:12:49. > :13:18.called folkrock. This is an error we think we know
:13:19. > :13:29.very well, Greenwich Village at the start of the 60s. -- an era. How
:13:30. > :13:38.faithful is it, do you think? Well, I'm not quite old enough to know!
:13:39. > :13:41.Without any of the politics, why people with singing those songs and
:13:42. > :13:47.making new songs about people doing things, ordinary people, that is not
:13:48. > :13:54.there. It is entertaining to see Justin Timberlake doing whatever
:13:55. > :14:00.that thing was. It is a very gentle, innocent kind of take on a very
:14:01. > :14:04.specific little bubble within that scene. I don't know, I kind of get
:14:05. > :14:08.the feeling that they didn't quite love the music as much as the music
:14:09. > :14:14.in O Brother, Where Art Thou?. They hadn't quite embraced it, because of
:14:15. > :14:19.the slight fakeness of it in the sense that they were trying to
:14:20. > :14:24.recreate something. I didn't see any of that gentleness. I thought it was
:14:25. > :14:28.a harsh, brutal, raw film. I've rarely seen a film which tells it so
:14:29. > :14:39.much like it is. This is what life is like. I thought the experiences
:14:40. > :14:47.of Llewyn Davis, where kind of hoping he might become the next Bob
:14:48. > :14:56.Dylan. It reminds you life does not always deliver.
:14:57. > :15:06.I thought it was a Disney version. Or perhaps a Mumford version. Within
:15:07. > :15:12.12 seconds I realised what the ending would be, which we cannot
:15:13. > :15:19.give away. 12 seconds. That is like, oh, no, that is ridiculous,
:15:20. > :15:25.that is what they are going to do. The set pieces, Justin Timberlake in
:15:26. > :15:32.a beard. And when John Goodman turns up, it is Jeff ridges liked. On
:15:33. > :15:38.every level I was constantly let down. I did not think it was like it
:15:39. > :15:43.was at all. The best thing was a cat, there is a cat element, which
:15:44. > :15:49.made it more of a Disney film. If it was a Disney film, I would think it
:15:50. > :15:57.was a return to form. The Coen brothers, middle ranking. It is the
:15:58. > :16:01.best performance by a cat ever. There is a moment when he
:16:02. > :16:05.contemplates leaving the cats. The cat looks at him, as if to say, are
:16:06. > :16:15.you going to leave me? It is perfect. I could not disagree with
:16:16. > :16:20.you more. I loved the emptiness. That fantastically funny ditty about
:16:21. > :16:27.please, Mr Kennedy. Llewyn Davis is part of the recording. We think it
:16:28. > :16:31.is going to become a massive hit. And that is not the punch line. In
:16:32. > :16:36.the hands of lesser film-makers the the hands of lesser film-makers, the
:16:37. > :16:41.sum would have been a hit and Llewyn Davis has signed away the royalties
:16:42. > :16:45.and does not get it. This is left to your imagination. I Inc it is
:16:46. > :16:55.subtle, a beautiful film, a masterpiece. -- I think. Did you see
:16:56. > :17:00.vintage Coen brothers? They are wonderful, but I do not think it is
:17:01. > :17:03.vintage. They are trying to do a difficult thing, about the middle
:17:04. > :17:11.ground, when you are not quite good enough. Doing their take on being a
:17:12. > :17:16.mediocre person and sliding towards the back, you are not quite doing
:17:17. > :17:25.good. It is delicate and bits of it for the parts. You wonder what the
:17:26. > :17:32.point is, the person playing Llewyn Davis, is he so good it is a shame
:17:33. > :17:33.he does not make it? It was not great T Bone Burnett. I think he is
:17:34. > :17:44.too tidy. The hair was too tidy, the too tidy. The hair was too tidy the
:17:45. > :17:50.sweaters were too tidy. This is an exploration of mediocrity, which is
:17:51. > :17:55.unusual. Is he meant to be mediocre? They are not making him
:17:56. > :17:58.out to be mediocre, they make him out to be brilliant and the failure
:17:59. > :18:06.is to do with other circumstances, not talent. He is not good enough
:18:07. > :18:16.and not quite nice enough to make up for... We just don't know. One of
:18:17. > :18:29.the attractive things about the film is that he might possibly make it.
:18:30. > :18:34.You are thinking is this the moment the agent is impressed? What about
:18:35. > :18:42.the treatment of the music. The film does let it breathe. They like the
:18:43. > :18:56.songs to become part of the story. There is something at the centre of
:18:57. > :19:01.it that was missing. I think it does not have the scene that was in the
:19:02. > :19:05.film about Johnny Cash, where you have the heartless rendition by
:19:06. > :19:10.Johnny Cash and he says if you were hit by a van, what would using? The
:19:11. > :19:20.guy who does not seeing the thing he would sing. -- what would you
:19:21. > :19:29.perform? If you want to see the cat, the best performance, inside Llewyn
:19:30. > :19:33.Davis is in cinemas from the 24th of January. Somewhere at home I have a
:19:34. > :19:40.battered addition of Emil And The Detectives, the German classic. It
:19:41. > :19:43.is an adventure story much loved by several generations and now it has
:19:44. > :19:54.been adapted for the National Theatre Christmas production. Would
:19:55. > :20:01.you help me? Help you? Me, help you? I understand, you don't know me
:20:02. > :20:04.That would be ace. You would you could that would be so. No speeches,
:20:05. > :20:14.Gustav, but everyone calls me Toots. Emil. He is a boy given money by his
:20:15. > :20:19.grandmother to take it to Berlin. He meets a man on the train who robs
:20:20. > :20:25.him and the story is about how he gets the money back. It was a
:20:26. > :20:31.pioneering book when it was published in 1929. Erich Kastner set
:20:32. > :20:37.the story in a contemporary city. He had children who were recognisable.
:20:38. > :20:50.They were not in a fairy tale forest. They were on trams and
:20:51. > :21:00.buses. It is a contemporary story. This is him, he is the victim of a
:21:01. > :21:05.crime. We decided to set it in Berlin in 1929 when it is originally
:21:06. > :21:09.set and it is an extraordinary period with Weimar Germany, and
:21:10. > :21:24.amazing gift for the creative team to create onstage. # Take good care
:21:25. > :21:29.where you go. It takes you into a world where adults steals from a
:21:30. > :21:35.child and tries to get away with it. The moral themes of the story
:21:36. > :21:42.are serious. Even though it is told in a joyful way. I loved the book as
:21:43. > :21:47.a child. Do you think you would have hat to have had that experience to
:21:48. > :21:54.fall for the charms of the production? I am 50 years too old to
:21:55. > :22:02.review this properly. For me, it was too sweet. Therefore, I would say,
:22:03. > :22:08.thinking about myself as an eight-year-old, I would hate it
:22:09. > :22:12.because it was too sweet. I did ask some children after and they did
:22:13. > :22:18.enjoy it. I do not want to know that. The fact that children were
:22:19. > :22:23.onstage dancing annoyed me. That is because I am too old. If we are
:22:24. > :22:26.preparing children for what is happening next in their lives I
:22:27. > :22:30.wonder if this sweet innocence is the way to go. The source material
:22:31. > :22:34.and the first thing in the city, the and the first thing in the city the
:22:35. > :22:42.first thing about them being children, it is a shame it is so
:22:43. > :22:47.sweet. For me, that let it down slightly. It was not sophisticated
:22:48. > :22:53.enough to engage a child with anything but its weakness. I think
:22:54. > :22:58.it prepared the way. There is a scene and much play made of the
:22:59. > :23:04.relationship between pro and his mother. He has to be the adult -
:23:05. > :23:13.mother. He has to be the adult -- Emil. I think it was genuinely
:23:14. > :23:16.disturbing when it was broken. I try to think whether I would have
:23:17. > :23:26.thought it was magical when I was children will stop you have this
:23:27. > :23:30.amazing set. Bauhaus. I think it might be like Matilda, when you feel
:23:31. > :23:35.that people below a certain height in the audience have different
:23:36. > :23:41.concerns. It might tap into something that is no longer a
:23:42. > :23:46.concern when you are an adult. What they tried to pitch to adults was
:23:47. > :23:54.the setting of 1929. There are hints of darkness in the story. I read the
:23:55. > :23:59.book before I went to see it. I thought it was a charming book and I
:24:00. > :24:05.thought the charm was missing in the production. I must confess, which is
:24:06. > :24:11.naughty of me, I was listening to be squeaky children, being annoying,
:24:12. > :24:15.and thinking it is 1929 in Berlin and so in 1935 they will be in the
:24:16. > :24:21.Hitler youth and after that they will be off to the Eastern front.
:24:22. > :24:33.The production notes to that. There is a character who possibly will
:24:34. > :24:39.become a Hitler youth. They made it darker than the book. You see
:24:40. > :24:43.children's authors referring to it often as their favourite children's
:24:44. > :24:51.book. I can see why, it has an innocence. When it was written,
:24:52. > :24:56.there was no knowledge of what is about to happen. Now, we have the
:24:57. > :25:01.sense of absolute knowledge. For me, I could not get out of my mind... It
:25:02. > :25:08.I could not get out of my mind. . It was like watching the White ribbon.
:25:09. > :25:13.You knew in 12 years, they would be different children, different
:25:14. > :25:19.people. Does it add another dimension? It is both very sweet,
:25:20. > :25:26.appropriately in some cases, and then you have Nazi hints in the
:25:27. > :25:38.character who is dying to get an extra uniform. It is frankly quite
:25:39. > :25:41.terrifying. This new generation of talented and experienced child
:25:42. > :25:46.performers. I was sitting in a gathering of them, being
:25:47. > :25:54.aggressively professional as they viewed their colleagues. They were
:25:55. > :26:01.the harshest critics. They were more on the ball than the grown-up actors
:26:02. > :26:09.I know. They can be in Matilda, they can be in this. There might be a
:26:10. > :26:17.permanent children's Co. There is Billy Elliot. The element of fame.
:26:18. > :26:22.You can see it on the children's faces, especially when they invaded
:26:23. > :26:31.the audience. You have two in baby audience. It was scary, they are so
:26:32. > :26:35.into the idea they are onstage. You have people who are experienced and
:26:36. > :26:43.then you have people like Amy Wilmot, her first professional
:26:44. > :26:49.performance. They are getting carried away with the idea that it
:26:50. > :26:53.is Berlin when it is. I found it like a cartoon. I did not get a
:26:54. > :27:03.sense of Berlin and a great moment in time. Perhaps for a younger
:27:04. > :27:10.audience, Emil And The Detectives is playing until March. And now another
:27:11. > :27:14.detective story. This time, an event that shocked Britain 50 years ago
:27:15. > :27:20.and still captures the public imagination. Two new dramas on BBC
:27:21. > :27:35.One aim to give both sides of the story of the Great Train Robbery.
:27:36. > :27:42.The first, A Robber's Tale, focuses on plans to rob the Glasgow to use
:27:43. > :27:48.to mail train. The films by Chris Chibnall, who wrote the Doctor Who
:27:49. > :27:51.and was behind Broadchurch on ITV. Luke Evans plays Bruce Reynolds the
:27:52. > :27:55.Luke Evans plays Bruce Reynolds, the charismatic gang leader who
:27:56. > :28:05.masterminded the raid. You were in Wandsworth? Mistaken identity. Enjoy
:28:06. > :28:13.your night, but do not get carried away. The robbery was known as the
:28:14. > :28:24.crime of the century. It netted more than ?2 million, over 40 million
:28:25. > :28:27.into day's money. -- today's. A Copper's Tale is the detective
:28:28. > :28:36.story, following Jim Broadbent as Chief Inspector Tommy Butler as he
:28:37. > :28:40.leads the investigation. His enquiries are conducted under the
:28:41. > :28:47.glare of the media spotlight and under the gaze of a public largely
:28:48. > :28:50.sympathetic to the robbers. His determination and professional pride
:28:51. > :28:58.means that he will not rest until each of the robbers is behind bars.
:28:59. > :29:06.Early turn is officially 9am until 5pm. I expect you here until at
:29:07. > :29:15.least ten. From the outset, it is a very strong sense of its own style.
:29:16. > :29:27.Yes, and I was relieved. I did not want three hours from an era of
:29:28. > :29:34.drabness. What the director decided to do in the first episode was to
:29:35. > :29:47.restyle it is kind of the avengers meets The Italian Job Central Coast
:29:48. > :29:58.Marshall. That Was All Exciting. Obviously, They Must've Taken
:29:59. > :30:03.Tremendous Liberties. . I hated the fact that it had been put through
:30:04. > :30:09.that filter. There is an eternal attempt to get some of the magic
:30:10. > :30:15.from HBO and Scandinavia, it is extraordinary. For me, it was almost
:30:16. > :30:24.two films. I think structurally that was a lack of nerve. One film is
:30:25. > :30:26.from the view of the cops and one from the robbers. I would have
:30:27. > :30:32.preferred a much more imaginative combination to make one film.
:30:33. > :30:36.Separate, there was likely empty. You didn't get enough detail and I
:30:37. > :30:42.would've liked to have seen a more imaginative of blending the two
:30:43. > :30:50.stories. Although it did mean we had a focus on the story of the police,
:30:51. > :30:57.which we hadn't had before. We didn't know about the police work. I
:30:58. > :31:01.think if you stay with it, you might feel the glamour of the train
:31:02. > :31:05.robbery was kind of shallow and you do know that story much better, but
:31:06. > :31:15.if you cling on to the second one Jim Broadbent is being a force of
:31:16. > :31:24.nature. It's lovely. You've got beautiful little details. Jack
:31:25. > :31:34.Mills, the guy who would sit on the head, the train driver backtrack who
:31:35. > :31:37.was hit on the head, it was pointed out that that guy never got better.
:31:38. > :31:50.That is allowed to breed in the second part. -- to breathe. I think
:31:51. > :31:54.there is a tradition in this country. If you think of all these
:31:55. > :32:02.great heist caper is, you always want the robbers to get away with
:32:03. > :32:09.it. I think what this does is habit both ways. You get the criminals
:32:10. > :32:15.glamorised in the first episode and then the second one you get the
:32:16. > :32:21.real-life drudgery, this vengeful cop trying to get his man, which she
:32:22. > :32:25.does. I thought it worked well. We're going to have these
:32:26. > :32:29.anniversaries with a constant temptation of revealing something
:32:30. > :32:33.new. I didn't really think that it did reveal anything. I thought Jim
:32:34. > :32:37.Broadbent was a bit narrow, actually. I found it underwhelming.
:32:38. > :32:45.What I was intrigued by was if 2 What I was intrigued by was if
:32:46. > :32:49.million is worth 4 million, what about the 30 years that they were
:32:50. > :33:01.put away for? What would they be put away for now? This seemed to reveal
:33:02. > :33:09.any thing knew about it. Backtrack anything new about it. I wouldn t
:33:10. > :33:26.anything new about it. I wouldn't have a nickname if I was in it.
:33:27. > :33:34.Those great train robbery dramas are on BBC One on the 18th and 19th of
:33:35. > :33:37.December. Our music tonight comes from Primal Scream, formed in
:33:38. > :33:41.Glasgow 30 years ago and still going strong. They are currently touring
:33:42. > :34:09.with material from that 10th studio album. This is their most recent
:34:10. > :34:17.single, goodbye Johnny. # Johnny. # It's a soundless sound when the sun
:34:18. > :34:22.don't show. # The nights up there like the great
:34:23. > :34:39.escape. # To push me down How it suffocates.
:34:40. > :34:55.# Johnny. # I'd go across the world but not
:34:56. > :35:18.away. Goodbye Johnny.
:35:19. > :35:24.# Can't hear anything Anybody says. # Oh, how the passion is crushed
:35:25. > :36:03.under the sky. # Oh, how I hate everything that is mine.
:36:04. > :36:11.# Johnny. # Everybody's drunk in the world
:36:12. > :36:21.below, Johnny. # It's a soundless sound when the
:36:22. > :36:25.sun don't show. # Somebody made it and I just can't
:36:26. > :36:36.fit. # And here's the excuse I have for
:36:37. > :36:40.it. # Goodbye, Johnny. # Goodbye, Johnny.
:36:41. > :37:06.# Goodbye, Johnny. # Goodbye, Johnny.
:37:07. > :37:15.And there will be more from Primal Scream a little later. Earlier, we
:37:16. > :37:19.discussed the work of the Coen brothers and we turn now to the
:37:20. > :37:24.brothers who've been often labelled the bad boys of Brit art. Jake and
:37:25. > :37:30.Dinos Chapman gained notoriety alongside Tracey Emin when their
:37:31. > :37:36.mannequins of children with genitals on their faces were shown at the
:37:37. > :37:40.Royal Academy back in 1997. They continued to court controversy by
:37:41. > :37:45.creating visions of health, featuring Nazi toy soldiers, and by
:37:46. > :37:57.pacing -- painting over works by Adolf Hitler. Now, the new
:37:58. > :38:02.Serpentine celebrates their work. We approached it thinking about the
:38:03. > :38:11.space and what things have been seen in London, just as a kind of prison
:38:12. > :38:19.Break -- prosaic first trawl. I think most of it is new work.
:38:20. > :38:27.Interspersed with some other stuff. The title of the exhibition, Come
:38:28. > :38:36.And See, was inspired by a film which detected the Nazi invasion of
:38:37. > :38:40.Belarus during World War II. It seemed to be an analogue is what we
:38:41. > :38:43.were doing. It descends into something which is not particular
:38:44. > :38:52.will stop it starts off being realistic. And then it turns into a
:38:53. > :38:58.less surrealism, it becomes kind of fantasy, violent on a different
:38:59. > :39:05.level. At the centre is a film by the Chapmans themselves. It is a
:39:06. > :39:09.selection of bits of films we've made. I think some of it is maybe 20
:39:10. > :39:20.years old. Some of it is quite recent. Film-making is good, it just
:39:21. > :39:26.depends more on collaboration. This script has been knocking around the
:39:27. > :39:30.years. It is an idea of a history of production, starting off with our
:39:31. > :39:42.birth. There are some scenes in their joining up with a Colin O P
:39:43. > :39:45.video. -- colonoscopy. It cements their reputation as provocative as.
:39:46. > :39:52.20 years on, they are as defiant as ever. There is a Venn diagram of
:39:53. > :39:56.people who are idiots who don't get it because they have no sense of
:39:57. > :40:00.humour, and people who understand. The more you suppress things, the
:40:01. > :40:05.more you actually invite their transgression, anyway. This stuff is
:40:06. > :40:17.funny. It's more funny than it is dour.
:40:18. > :40:20.So, a time when a lot of contemporary art does take itself
:40:21. > :40:33.very seriously, but there we have it. I've always thought of them as
:40:34. > :40:37.comedians. It is interesting that it is in an art context, in a gallery.
:40:38. > :40:42.To some extent what they do is at the extreme extent of British
:40:43. > :40:48.humour, like Monty Python. That is one way of taking it. It isn't
:40:49. > :40:55.really provocative or offensive unless you decide it is. It gets
:40:56. > :41:03.called troublesome, but it isn't, it is quite quaint in an odd way. And
:41:04. > :41:07.within that, you ask, what is it really doing apart from being an
:41:08. > :41:11.extreme sense of humour? And at this point in their career, they are
:41:12. > :41:17.reaching a certain age, you wonder whether the gag itself is starting
:41:18. > :41:24.to get repetitive will stop --. And repetition is part of what they do
:41:25. > :41:28.as well. You say they have reached a certain age, but anyway, they
:41:29. > :41:36.haven't. Their work is celebrating childishness. I think their epitaph
:41:37. > :41:43.will read, we got away with it. It is not given to many others, the
:41:44. > :41:49.chance to do that. I love their stuff. It is so puerile and
:41:50. > :41:53.tasteless. I could have sat there all stood there for hours looking at
:41:54. > :42:05.the dioramas of Nazi soldiers and skeletons in German helmets. What a
:42:06. > :42:08.fantastic sick idea. And dinosaurs. People living in the guts of
:42:09. > :42:15.dinosaurs. I could've stayed there day. I love it. What did you make of
:42:16. > :42:23.it's there is a darkness at the centre of what he was describing. I
:42:24. > :42:30.don't know if I'm more disturbed by him being so happy about
:42:31. > :42:39.disembowelled dinosaurs. It is very funny, it is weirdly cute to be
:42:40. > :42:45.together, they are companionable, constantly leaving little messages.
:42:46. > :42:50.Part of their aim is to make you stare a lot next to the strange clan
:42:51. > :42:54.members. If you stare at them for a long time and think about something
:42:55. > :43:03.making them, they are literally visions of health. It hasn't gone
:43:04. > :43:06.well for the Nazis. If you actually read the text that accompanies the
:43:07. > :43:19.works, they do take you just write a strange place. -- took quite a
:43:20. > :43:23.strange place. If we get lulled into the idea that they are slapstick
:43:24. > :43:24.comedians, then we get drawn back to the idea that what they are doing is
:43:25. > :43:27.actually quite serious and dark. the idea that what they are doing is
:43:28. > :43:31.actually quite serious and dark For me, coming away from it, this
:43:32. > :43:35.building in the middle of Hyde Park, it is isolated. It was
:43:36. > :43:43.vaudeville in a gallery setting But vaudeville in a gallery setting. But
:43:44. > :43:49.what is their position in the world? They have very nice lives, they are
:43:50. > :43:57.settled and successful. They are superstars in the world. Nothing
:43:58. > :44:03.wrong with that, is there? No, but is that right? It used to be
:44:04. > :44:08.required that there was this double act that did what they do.
:44:09. > :44:16.Ultimately, it has drained the meaning out of it. Or is that
:44:17. > :44:20.falling into the trap, and actually they say, you've fallen for it. It
:44:21. > :44:29.is completely restrict -- repeat with meaning.
:44:30. > :44:36.I maintain a lot of interest in what they do. There is something
:44:37. > :44:41.old-fashioned. You are going to die, you are going to rot and bear that
:44:42. > :44:47.in mind. Sex is a peculiar thing to do, so do not get hung up on it And
:44:48. > :44:53.the opposite of art is probably fascism. I am OK with that.
:44:54. > :44:59.Old-fashioned in the sense that if you take comedy to the extreme, this
:45:00. > :45:05.is where you end up. That is inside most comedians' head. There is
:45:06. > :45:10.craft. They make a big deal of it being thrown away, but the effort
:45:11. > :45:17.has gone into the painting and the detail. In its way, the triumphant
:45:18. > :45:23.death, the picture, you can stare at it and you notice new things every
:45:24. > :45:29.time. Although they make a virtue of it being trashed, it is good trash.
:45:30. > :45:34.They are a double act. In this sense, there is a craftsperson, good
:45:35. > :45:40.at putting together leases, and the ideas, it is the equivalent of a
:45:41. > :45:45.double act. Do we see the same craft in the film they made of their
:45:46. > :45:50.lives? There is an extraordinary moment, giving birth to the adult
:45:51. > :45:58.Delos Chapman. The exhibition is very male -- Delos Chapman. You
:45:59. > :46:10.could not mistake that from anybody else. It is a funny film. It is
:46:11. > :46:15.about what art is supposed to do. It looks at them in a serious way and
:46:16. > :46:23.in a non-serious way. Some of it is throw away. The etchings are very
:46:24. > :46:27.beautiful. I hope there is a bloody good punch line to the whole of
:46:28. > :46:38.this. Even if it takes 20 years I hope it is spectacular. You can make
:46:39. > :46:44.up your own mind. Come And See Is at the Sackler Gallery. Finally, we
:46:45. > :46:50.could not ignore the fact that it is the season of giving. We asked
:46:51. > :46:55.guests to nominate their book of the year. And to recommend their fellow
:46:56. > :47:02.panellist reads it for the first time. I picked the author biography
:47:03. > :47:06.of the man who invented the word genocide. An extraordinary idea,
:47:07. > :47:14.genocide. An extraordinary idea inventing that word. You could
:47:15. > :47:20.imagine it had always existed. He was at a high-level operation in 11
:47:21. > :47:28.different languages. He made his life's study, what he came to define
:47:29. > :47:37.as this thing, genocide. It is only in the 1940s that he began to hone
:47:38. > :47:44.the concept. He basically killed himself working to get legally
:47:45. > :47:49.binding statutes internationally, to establish the principle that
:47:50. > :47:53.countries could intervene when other countries were destroying groups
:47:54. > :47:58.within their country, which will not be popular with any government
:47:59. > :48:04.anywhere. It is a beautifully written book. It looks at the power
:48:05. > :48:07.of art to sustain you and to stave off the destruction of groups by
:48:08. > :48:15.other groups because in a healthy culture that is difficult. We gave
:48:16. > :48:19.the book to James. If Alison's plan was to bludgeon me with a serious
:48:20. > :48:28.work, she failed. I thought it was fascinating. The first half is an
:48:29. > :48:35.interesting account of a refined, educated, middle-aged Jewish
:48:36. > :48:43.person's escape from Europe as it collapses and before that, his life
:48:44. > :48:48.on the farm in Lithuania. These were not just faceless people being shot
:48:49. > :48:54.by Germans, these were real people, it brings that into focus. The
:48:55. > :48:59.second part, almost as interesting, his battle to get the term genocide
:49:00. > :49:05.recognised by the United Nations and the horse trading that goes on. The
:49:06. > :49:09.British delegation do not like the term genocide, because half of the
:49:10. > :49:20.word is Greek and the other half is Latin. Tell us what you picked for
:49:21. > :49:24.your choice. I picked a book by Guy Walters telling the true story of
:49:25. > :49:29.the great escape. This is the film we see all the time Christmas and we
:49:30. > :49:42.know that Steve McQueen jumps over the wire on his motorbike. In real
:49:43. > :49:50.life, this did not happen. Never! Guy Walters is like a Dick test
:49:51. > :49:59.Guy Walters is like a detective historian. The man in prison wrote
:50:00. > :50:03.the bestselling book that became the basis for the movie, representing
:50:04. > :50:12.the great escape is a jolly Jake. In real life, it was an enterprise
:50:13. > :50:16.where people were shocked by the Gestapo. They were warned they were
:50:17. > :50:26.going to be shocked and went ahead anyway. We gave that choice to Paul
:50:27. > :50:31.Morley. This is when I started to think of nicknames for James. It is
:50:32. > :50:38.people who have gone from public school into a prisoner of war camp.
:50:39. > :50:45.Didn't go. That comes to mind. The book seems to want to rectify the
:50:46. > :50:55.idea that the great escape was not correct, but it also goes into that
:50:56. > :50:59.derring-do area and seems to reduce Nazi Germany to the equivalent of
:51:00. > :51:05.headmasters and housemasters of a public school. I was disconcerted.
:51:06. > :51:12.It starts out with lazy language. It is filled with things such as, as we
:51:13. > :51:15.shall see, and it is a measure of. I came away feeling it was not
:51:16. > :51:19.necessarily an underestimation of what happened, but the death edited
:51:20. > :51:30.version and this needed to be wrecked divide. Are you distressed
:51:31. > :51:39.he did not like it - this one needed to be rectified. One of the most
:51:40. > :51:42.interesting points for me was the fact that you mock the idea he
:51:43. > :51:50.suggests the commander of the camp ran its like a benign headmaster.
:51:51. > :51:55.But the evidence bears that out. They were like naughty public school
:51:56. > :51:59.boys. The Germans actually liked the idea of the prisoners digging
:52:00. > :52:05.tunnels. They wanted to keep them occupied. They encourage them to
:52:06. > :52:10.escape in small numbers. They said please do not escape in numbers of
:52:11. > :52:19.more than five because the Gestapo will be on your case and kill you.
:52:20. > :52:25.And what did you pick? Thomas Pinch on, in a way, you think he does not
:52:26. > :52:36.exist as some people suggest and he is made up of committees. He seems
:52:37. > :52:40.to be made up of so many people and this book is amazing, it is
:52:41. > :52:52.post-September the 11th and the Internet, but it is still written by
:52:53. > :52:59.Pynchon. A wonderful book as the world is split into different levels
:53:00. > :53:06.of reality. There were many tasteful books this year 's, but they buried
:53:07. > :53:12.themselves in a past, whereas the present seems more interesting.
:53:13. > :53:17.Working out what is going on. And of all people he comes along and
:53:18. > :53:27.explains where we are at the moment. We gave this book to you. It has all
:53:28. > :53:33.the good things. He is in his early 70s and it reads like a book by a
:53:34. > :53:38.man in his early 30s. He has such energy. He is connected to a variety
:53:39. > :53:43.of things going on. It is slightly hard-boiled detect TIFF, there is a
:53:44. > :53:52.thread running through it. -- detective will
:53:53. > :54:00.-- detective. He has thought about politics and what is going on
:54:01. > :54:05.culturally in America. He distils it into a few sentences, beautiful
:54:06. > :54:07.descriptions of New York City. Cabs driving through water and throwing
:54:08. > :54:25.up wings of the all the writing -- up wings of the all the writing. --
:54:26. > :54:32.filthy water. I have recommended a nonfiction book. A sting in the tail
:54:33. > :54:38.by Dave Wilson. It is about bumblebees. The books are out now.
:54:39. > :54:42.Thanks to my panellists. We will be back in January with a look at some
:54:43. > :54:58.of the cultural highlights of the New Year. To play us out, another
:54:59. > :55:04.track by Primal Scream. It's all right, It's OK. # There's a time to
:55:05. > :55:18.remember. # A time to forget. # A girl I wanna
:55:19. > :55:23.see. # She's leaving in her big black car. # Leaving without me.
:55:24. > :55:23.see. # She's leaving in her big black car. # Leaving without me #
:55:24. > :55:27.black car. # Leaving without me. # It's all right, it's OK.
:55:28. > :55:50.# If you're supposed to. # I don't care about tomorrow. # When I feel
:55:51. > :55:52.like this today. # Make a start to another's path. # That's never been
:55:53. > :55:53.my way. # Don't believe what to tell ya. #
:55:54. > :55:59.That you will be a guy. # There s # Don't believe what to tell ya. #
:56:00. > :56:14.That you will be a guy. # There's no part and pretender. # When you know
:56:15. > :56:18.that is that? # It's all right, it's OK. You can fix it, wash it if it's
:56:19. > :56:36.broken. Take your time. Walk away. You can close it once it's been
:56:37. > :56:40.open. Many times all alone and and you cry. Walk it down, down the
:56:41. > :57:16.streets. No-one to speak. And you cry. Oh-la-la. If you really think
:57:17. > :57:27.about it. You've got everything you need. No-one can stop ya. If you
:57:28. > :57:36.truly believe. It just fixate to cut you. There's no place for the weak.
:57:37. > :57:48.People sad collect dodges. Wait for someone to freak. It's all right,
:57:49. > :57:53.it's OK. You can be, anytime you want to. Take your time. Walk away.
:57:54. > :58:25.You can come back. If you're supposed to. Oh-la-la. Oh-la-la.
:58:26. > :58:34.It's OK. It's all right.