:00:07. > :00:15.Tonight on review, a minstrel show about a miscarriage of justice.
:00:16. > :00:19.Controversial sex scenes in the top prizewinner at Cannes. The feminist
:00:20. > :00:24.who signed a mistress contracts Campaigning documentaries on racism
:00:25. > :00:28.and AIDS. And modern Art's most important prize, plus the afterlife
:00:29. > :00:36.of Aztec Camera. Music from Roddy Frame. Hello, on the show this month
:00:37. > :00:40.blue was the warmest colour, the film which one that Palme D'Or at
:00:41. > :00:44.Cannes but left one actress saying she had been treated like a
:00:45. > :00:49.prostitute. True story of a teacher who chose to sell sex in return for
:00:50. > :00:53.a house and Zadie Smith's fictional account of a woman treated as
:00:54. > :00:58.domestic slave. We explore prejudice against Australian Aboriginal people
:00:59. > :01:01.and against gay men with AIDS in two new documentaries by John Pilger and
:01:02. > :01:06.David France. We will also be discussing this year's Turner Prize
:01:07. > :01:09.which actually contains portraits. Joining me to debate all of that is
:01:10. > :01:14.the right Bonnie Greer, author Paul Morley and journalists Sarfraz
:01:15. > :01:18.Manzoor. First tonight, you may have heard of the shocking case of the
:01:19. > :01:23.The Scottsboro Boys, who were falsely accused of raping 1930s
:01:24. > :01:27.Alabama, but can you imagine that story told as a minstrel show? Well,
:01:28. > :01:31.that was the vision of the giants of musical theatre Kander and Ebb,
:01:32. > :01:37.known for hits like Cabaret, Chicago and the song New York, New York
:01:38. > :01:39.Now, their acclaimed production which was devised with David
:01:40. > :01:41.Thompson and Susan Stroman, has arrived from Broadway to London s
:01:42. > :02:06.Young Vic Theatre. Thank you, boys. The Scottsboro Boys
:02:07. > :02:10.is about nine boys who were riding the train one morning in 1931,
:02:11. > :02:15.looking for work and they were pulled off that train and accused of
:02:16. > :02:20.raping two white women. It was not true, it did not happen but what
:02:21. > :02:23.happened at that point macro was a series of trials would take them
:02:24. > :02:28.over the course of several decades and spark a national conversation
:02:29. > :02:40.about race and in particular galvanise what would become the
:02:41. > :02:44.American civil rights movement. . # That's the custom here in Alabama
:02:45. > :02:47.#. The reporters said the early trials
:02:48. > :02:51.were like minstrel shows. The minstrel form was America's top
:02:52. > :02:56.intimate -- entertainment form for almost 100 years. It had an
:02:57. > :03:11.incredible presence and as such it has an incredible vocabulary.
:03:12. > :03:15.We were never concerned about the use of the minstrel form is being
:03:16. > :03:21.controversial. We knew that it was the right way to tell the story One
:03:22. > :03:27.thing that Fred ebb said repeatedly was we had 2010 the audience because
:03:28. > :03:28.if you don't the material is too horrible and the audience will pull
:03:29. > :03:45.away. # Nothing but joy #.
:03:46. > :03:50.Sarfraz, that is a very interesting, almost dangerous notion, the idea of
:03:51. > :03:53.subverting the minstrel show with its racist tradition. How did you
:03:54. > :03:58.find that? I was interested in the film when David Thompson said they
:03:59. > :04:00.had to sweeten the story to make it entertaining, otherwise people would
:04:01. > :04:07.pull away. It was trying so much to be entertaining, to try to lighten
:04:08. > :04:10.it, to try and find dark comedy and I don't think that works because the
:04:11. > :04:14.thing about the minstrel thing is essentially this is a story about an
:04:15. > :04:19.alleged case of rape but when you start making white people played by
:04:20. > :04:24.the black characters, the shock and injustice of that is lost so I felt
:04:25. > :04:28.actually people in the audience were not sure whether they should be
:04:29. > :04:32.laughing or disappointed and angry and it fell between two stalls.
:04:33. > :04:36.Isn't that part of the danger of it, that part of you wanted to laugh and
:04:37. > :04:43.yet it was so disturbing at the same time. It shook the audience up. One
:04:44. > :04:48.reason it shook the audience obesity is a bad show. It is a bad Kander
:04:49. > :04:58.and Ebb. It is second rate Kander and Ebb. Bad as a musical. It is
:04:59. > :05:02.bad, as you tickle, second-rate -- second-rate as a musical. How can we
:05:03. > :05:06.make the worst kind of musical and see if we can get away with it, they
:05:07. > :05:10.come up with springtime for Hitler, this is springtime for Hitler. I sat
:05:11. > :05:14.there and thought to myself, this is actually the most dangerous show in
:05:15. > :05:19.London if you are black writer, a black actor, a black director, then
:05:20. > :05:24.I thought, pull back a minute because it is not a bad thing that
:05:25. > :05:27.The Young Vic decided to do this. On paper it makes perfect sense. The
:05:28. > :05:34.cast are wonderful and I don't want to put them down. It is just that
:05:35. > :05:40.the whole thing is no good and it doesn't actually address what it
:05:41. > :05:46.sets out to do in musical comedy terms, political terms or any other
:05:47. > :05:51.of its messages. OK, that could not be not damning. If you are going to
:05:52. > :05:55.approach this kind of thing the one thing you are going to do with
:05:56. > :05:58.dedicated great series of creative, transcendent moment so that you
:05:59. > :06:02.demonstrate you are treating the subject seriously. This, for me
:06:03. > :06:06.constantly made me uneasy because I constantly felt that I was being
:06:07. > :06:11.served up the kind of entertainment that was originally so reviled,
:06:12. > :06:16.obviously, because it is so appalling. Wasn't it subverting it?
:06:17. > :06:20.No, it never was. If you are enjoying this you are still enjoying
:06:21. > :06:25.people blacking up, enjoying the cakewalk and yet within its there is
:06:26. > :06:31.not a sophisticated kind of telling of this story. It is buffoonery and
:06:32. > :06:35.these people went through this. . There is a song about the electric
:06:36. > :06:39.chair, which is almost a tap dance. What did you think? If it was done
:06:40. > :06:45.well you can get away with anything. But I don't think it was. One thing
:06:46. > :06:49.is I did think it was sad because the individual performances for
:06:50. > :06:53.fantastic. They were charismatic. The other problem is structurally,
:06:54. > :06:58.in terms of how it was structured, there were big problems. During the
:06:59. > :07:01.show one of the stories is that one of the girls who claims and alleges
:07:02. > :07:07.rape changes her mind but we never get told why that happens. I have
:07:08. > :07:11.done a lot of research on The Scottsboro Boys. They did not tell
:07:12. > :07:16.the true story, that is the thing that annoyed me. They didn't tell
:07:17. > :07:22.the whole thing. They sacrificed it for entertainment value. It was
:07:23. > :07:24.cheap entertainment value. Also to pick up on something Paul said, if
:07:25. > :07:30.this was a real minstrel show they would have had eggs thrown at them
:07:31. > :07:34.on stage, that is how lame the whole thing is. The idea of the moral
:07:35. > :07:39.anger you should feel about that story is being lost. Isn't it
:07:40. > :07:43.introducing the moral anger to a wider audience, people who don't
:07:44. > :07:49.know about The Scottsboro Boys? No, I don't think so. You could tell
:07:50. > :07:55.somebody the Spanish -- unvarnished truth. They don't tell the whole
:07:56. > :08:01.story. They were not all looking for work, that is not true. On that
:08:02. > :08:07.train. If you have a creative response to its, the way they treat
:08:08. > :08:12.a Jewish lawyer is terrible, but I still think within it and all the
:08:13. > :08:15.featuring you have to make, if the score and the intelligent can
:08:16. > :08:18.application had been more transcendent, because of the fact is
:08:19. > :08:23.weak they are not taking it seriously. Unanimity from our panel
:08:24. > :08:26.here. I liked it more than you guys but we will talk later. The
:08:27. > :08:30.Scottsboro Boys is that The Young Vic until December the 21st.
:08:31. > :08:35.According to one controversial documentary out this month similar
:08:36. > :08:38.discrimination is biting the lives of the Australian Aboriginal
:08:39. > :08:44.community in the 21st century - blighting. Throughout his 40 year
:08:45. > :08:48.career John Pilger has made films that admirers describe as crusades
:08:49. > :08:53.and critics polemic. Utopia, his latest, returns to a subject he
:08:54. > :08:56.covered decades ago. Why so many of the original inhabitants of
:08:57. > :08:59.Australia continue to live in squalor. Meanwhile another
:09:00. > :09:03.campaigning documentary, how to survive the plague, tells the story
:09:04. > :09:08.of a group of amateur activists in New York and raged at what they saw
:09:09. > :09:11.lacklustre and homophobic as digits towards the glowing AIDS epidemic
:09:12. > :09:15.and the severe lack of investment in potentially life-saving drugs took
:09:16. > :09:23.on the establishment in a battle for survival. We are in the middle of
:09:24. > :09:33.the plague, 40 million infected people is a plague! It tell the
:09:34. > :09:36.story that I watched unfold as a journalist in the 80s and 90s, the
:09:37. > :09:43.story of a group of people who had no scientific background other than
:09:44. > :09:51.their own fierce will to live and a desire to save their community from
:09:52. > :09:57.annihilation. I started to look for treatments to help save my life I
:09:58. > :10:02.will wish they would shut their life mouths. There was nothing coming out
:10:03. > :10:06.of our government's efforts. They march in the streets and defy. I
:10:07. > :10:21.decided to become a full-time AIDS activist. We are as good as dead.
:10:22. > :10:28.I have made a number of films about injustice Australia and what was
:10:29. > :10:34.striking about filming this one was that the original film I made, the
:10:35. > :10:43.secret country in 1985, I went back to places where I had filmed all
:10:44. > :10:50.those years ago and in fact in the edit at one point we confused
:10:51. > :10:57.ourselves, the footage of then and now. There was no difference.
:10:58. > :11:02.We are meant to be doing primary health care, when really we haven't
:11:03. > :11:06.got the basic needs of a human being under wraps yet. It is sanitation,
:11:07. > :11:17.water, shelter. We rounded people look into our own
:11:18. > :11:22.concentration camps. In fact what we have done from the original invasion
:11:23. > :11:27.to now is constantly reduce Aboriginal people to a subhuman
:11:28. > :11:31.status. I suppose I have never accepted the fact that the first
:11:32. > :11:39.people of my country have been denied justice for so long and have
:11:40. > :11:47.been and has had a real impoverishment forced on them for so
:11:48. > :11:55.many years. The policy says you are black Aboriginal Australian, you are
:11:56. > :12:01.not wanted on this earth. Paul, this is John Pilger documentary Utopia,
:12:02. > :12:05.clearly strongly authored, clearly his own take on the subject. It is
:12:06. > :12:11.very difficult to watch Australian Masterchef after this, I must say. I
:12:12. > :12:14.don't mind it is so one-sided, supposedly. I don't mind it is his
:12:15. > :12:18.point of view because the other point of view is reality itself the
:12:19. > :12:21.corporate world, the mainstream world. You don't want to invite them
:12:22. > :12:25.into much because they are one-sided, the reality itself is
:12:26. > :12:31.one-sided. I love the idea that it is so dynamically just his own
:12:32. > :12:35.opinion. I think it is also quite poignant there isn't as much as this
:12:36. > :12:38.stuff on television any more. You used to see this kind of stuff all
:12:39. > :12:41.the time because the point of the investigative journalist is to be
:12:42. > :12:47.the opposition to the forces that will be complaining that it is
:12:48. > :12:51.one-sided. To one-sided? It is brilliant it is on ITV, and it is
:12:52. > :12:55.clearly a polemic. It has the strength and the weaknesses of that.
:12:56. > :12:58.The strengths are that you totally believe him in the sense that this
:12:59. > :13:01.is what he believes, it is impassioned, he is not trying to
:13:02. > :13:05.sugar-coat it like the The Scottsboro Boys did but the
:13:06. > :13:10.limitations are it feels like you are being harangued for an hour and
:13:11. > :13:13.15 minutes with one note, one argument being bashed, so I felt for
:13:14. > :13:18.example some of the interview clips felt manipulative. He does a series
:13:19. > :13:22.of vox pops and some sound like they have had a few drinks. These with
:13:23. > :13:27.white Australians on Australia Day. Asking if they know about the
:13:28. > :13:31.history of the people. It felt one-sided, that things were placed.
:13:32. > :13:33.He knew the answer he wanted to get and everything was structured
:13:34. > :13:39.towards it. Ultimately I agree with what his argument is but it still
:13:40. > :13:44.felt like a slightly tiring, being browbeaten. Did you feel harangued?
:13:45. > :13:50.John Pilger does what he says on the tin. All the time. John Pilger uses
:13:51. > :13:54.the documentary form. He is not documentary maker, Hughes is the
:13:55. > :13:59.former is an activist. What he wants you to do is take to the streets.
:14:00. > :14:04.Let me give you something else, he doesn't really want you to take and
:14:05. > :14:10.sit and think about this, he wants you to get up off your bottom and do
:14:11. > :14:13.something. You look at this documentary and I did and I thought,
:14:14. > :14:19.how long does Australia get away with this? This is going on for 100
:14:20. > :14:22.years and we are still sitting around talking about going to
:14:23. > :14:31.Australia, why aren't they boycotted? How does this keep going
:14:32. > :14:34.on? What came across in the documentary, in a sense, was this
:14:35. > :14:42.extraordinary illusion they have created. Australia has really
:14:43. > :14:47.whitened it out unbelievably. Although, as the boring BBC
:14:48. > :14:54.journalist, on the other hand.. You don't want that. There is enough of
:14:55. > :14:57.that in the world. They showed an Aboriginal guy and I think he is in
:14:58. > :15:05.a police station and he seems to have had quite a lot of drink. The
:15:06. > :15:13.way it was edited was to make out, oh, my gosh, what a racist woman in
:15:14. > :15:19.a situation, and everything was skewed to that argument. In a way,
:15:20. > :15:23.he comes from the same background, John Pilger, as the people he is
:15:24. > :15:28.demonising, and in a way there is a bit of liberal white guilt. He was
:15:29. > :15:31.leading his witnesses and eye fell some of the interviews to and allow
:15:32. > :15:38.the Aboriginal people to speak for themselves. -- I felt. Their answers
:15:39. > :15:45.were, yes, no. There are Aboriginal politicians, very active, on the
:15:46. > :15:52.right. And we didn't hear their voices. Again, if you are coming to
:15:53. > :15:56.this for the first time, you have to make some assumptions about it. You
:15:57. > :16:03.know John Pilger's work and you pretty much no... But that is an
:16:04. > :16:08.excuse. It is not an excuse. These are pieces in the form of
:16:09. > :16:11.documentaries. What a nearby art is that he has shaped them, formed
:16:12. > :16:21.them, you wants you to feel something. -- what I mean by art.
:16:22. > :16:25.But the fact he is returning to things he has already done shows a
:16:26. > :16:29.level of commitment to the subject but it is also interesting going
:16:30. > :16:35.back on your own previous work. But that is what I mean by art. But you
:16:36. > :16:38.also need a sledgehammer. Now and then we get this kind of thing from
:16:39. > :16:43.people like John Pilger and it has to be like this. Is the idea of a
:16:44. > :16:47.sledgehammer is that you will persuade people, it is not always
:16:48. > :16:57.how you persuade people to watch something. We had John Pilger, very
:16:58. > :17:01.experienced film-maker. How To Survive A Plague, by somebody who
:17:02. > :17:05.has not done this before. Not as obvious and author the's voice. What
:17:06. > :17:11.did you think of that? I think that demonstrated all of the weaknesses
:17:12. > :17:14.of that. I've felt it was essentially a lot of footage that
:17:15. > :17:19.was found that they did not quite know what to do with. And he did
:17:20. > :17:23.describe it as found footage. It didn't have a voice-over or seem to
:17:24. > :17:27.be structured that well. Ultimately, they didn't feel like I was in the
:17:28. > :17:33.hands of somebody who had a craft to tell that story. This is a nearer
:17:34. > :17:42.you knew a lot about. I was there, I was in the village 30 years ago and
:17:43. > :17:49.are lost about 35 friends. We all sat around when my friend Kramer
:17:50. > :17:56.brought the real heart around and we talked about, how are we going to do
:17:57. > :18:02.this play and present it? Because AIDS was seen as the fault of the
:18:03. > :18:05.people with the disease. We just know how to do this. We would sit
:18:06. > :18:13.around and watch people reading this play. It was hard to watch. To me,
:18:14. > :18:21.that era was about suicide, funerals, hold table falls of drugs
:18:22. > :18:24.that people have to take every day. Parents coming from Iowa to take
:18:25. > :18:30.their kids back from Greenwich Village. Being a young person and
:18:31. > :18:34.having to see all of your friends die like that before they are 3
:18:35. > :18:38.years old. This scold you for the rest of your life. I don't know
:18:39. > :18:51.anything about this film-maker but that story is a bunch of marchers.
:18:52. > :18:56.They should be many, many kaleidoscopic responses to this
:18:57. > :19:00.particular era. There should be And there isn't so we have got one here.
:19:01. > :19:09.So I would forgive it many of its... Occasionally it is energetic
:19:10. > :19:12.and simplifications are there of what happened, but if I could
:19:13. > :19:16.imagine they would be a bunch of other impressions, for me, what this
:19:17. > :19:19.did is what The Scottsboro Boys didn't do, and it left me feeling
:19:20. > :19:27.there had been a great piece that had been done. Obviously if you know
:19:28. > :19:34.what has been missing... But today, we are at a big crisis about the
:19:35. > :19:39.affordable care. Obama care. When people couldn't get public health
:19:40. > :19:43.care, this is what happened. So it is actually talking today to people
:19:44. > :19:50.about an era. So it is more about now. The other interesting thing is
:19:51. > :19:54.that the idea of the era coincides with the of camcorders, so the fact
:19:55. > :19:58.that you had all this footage wouldn't have necessarily happened
:19:59. > :20:01.in previous pandemics. But by referencing and telling the stories
:20:02. > :20:10.of those individuals, it's likely lost something. I'd know you are
:20:11. > :20:15.more into the sledgehammer thing. But the Jesse character, he was
:20:16. > :20:18.cited as a bogeyman. He was! . I would question whether now his
:20:19. > :20:26.family feel differently about what their father did compared with now.
:20:27. > :20:32.This was the movement warts and all, it felt like. It is powerful seeing
:20:33. > :20:36.people have a life span within the nature of the film. You are seeing
:20:37. > :20:39.people alive, energetic, and then you start to get the skin thing and
:20:40. > :20:46.then they die. It is a powerful moment. But the reason it does exist
:20:47. > :20:50.is because it is a message to America today. Oath of those
:20:51. > :20:59.documentaries are clearly great talking points and you can watch
:21:00. > :21:12.them yourselves. Can you imagine a and intelligent woman -- and
:21:13. > :21:18.intelligent woman offering a contract for services. Another
:21:19. > :21:25.story, the Embassy of Canberra - Cambodia, is about enforced
:21:26. > :21:28.servitude. Zadie Smith's new offering enters
:21:29. > :21:34.the little-known world of domestic workers. African housemaid Fatou
:21:35. > :21:40.lives than enslaved existence punctuated only by her surreptitious
:21:41. > :21:43.swanning visits to a local gym at the unwitting expense of her
:21:44. > :21:50.employers. Every Monday, on her way to the swimming pool, she passes The
:21:51. > :21:55.Embassy Of Cambodia. It is only a four or five bedroom suburban villa
:21:56. > :22:01.built in the 1930s surrounded by a redbrick wall about eight feet high.
:22:02. > :22:05.And back and forth, cresting this wall horizontally flies shuttlecock.
:22:06. > :22:17.They are playing badminton in The Embassy Of Cambodia. The game of
:22:18. > :22:22.badminton is a metaphor for Fatou's life, each chapter counting the
:22:23. > :22:30.score from zero to 21. From every log of hope she is batted with the
:22:31. > :22:34.smash of disappointment. But it explores the themes of prejudice,
:22:35. > :22:38.faith and globalisation. The fact is, if we followed the history of
:22:39. > :22:42.every little country in this world in its dramatic as well as quiet
:22:43. > :22:46.times, would have no space in which to live our own lives or apply
:22:47. > :22:54.ourselves to our necessary tasks, never mind indulging in occasional
:22:55. > :23:00.pleasures like swimming. In 1981, educated bright mother of
:23:01. > :23:03.three involved in the feminist movement sent an extraordinary
:23:04. > :23:07.document her lover, a contract. He would provide her with a house and
:23:08. > :23:14.income and she would provide him with mistress services. He signed. I
:23:15. > :23:19.have a common mistress. This goes back to a period where women, by
:23:20. > :23:24.being complied with mail wishes received substantial rewards. They
:23:25. > :23:28.had a position. Security. It was an even exchange. This is still true
:23:29. > :23:32.but women now wish to limit from the exchange all the assumption that
:23:33. > :23:35.their bodies are part of the trade. I understand this. They are
:23:36. > :23:41.bargaining from weak position and I would rather not. Aware of the
:23:42. > :23:45.unusual nature of their transaction, the couple decide to take their
:23:46. > :23:52.conversations on the telephone, in bed and in restaurants. -- to
:23:53. > :23:56.record. 30 years later, these conversations appear in published
:23:57. > :24:02.form. Women spend all their time making decisions or none, not
:24:03. > :24:08.enjoying. Many women will, sometime in the future, have more peaceable
:24:09. > :24:12.lovemaking. It hasn't with us. I've been with you for many years and
:24:13. > :24:20.I've never entered your bed reluctantly. Oh, never!
:24:21. > :24:23.On the surface, this is an intriguing concept about the balance
:24:24. > :24:29.of power between the sexes. What did you think? Well, I do not
:24:30. > :24:33.necessarily believe these people are real! I know you said that in your
:24:34. > :24:37.cue but I'm not sure people would actually be speaking so stilted
:24:38. > :24:44.league, so I'm not entirely sure it is authentic. But putting that
:24:45. > :24:48.aside, I found the whole thing utterly cynical. The cover of a book
:24:49. > :24:55.looks like a film poster. It seems to have allusions to 50 shades of
:24:56. > :24:58.grey, except for, and there is going to be a play based on it, and yet at
:24:59. > :25:01.the heart of it it feels like something which, even if these
:25:02. > :25:04.people are real, they speaking and yet at the heart of it it feels like
:25:05. > :25:07.something which, even if these people are real, they speak in an
:25:08. > :25:14.inauthentic, so I found it quite... I just found it did the financial
:25:15. > :25:22.nature of that transaction impact on their nature? I found myself
:25:23. > :25:26.unusually reluctant to engage with it as a thing. To even discuss it!
:25:27. > :25:33.What is good for me is that I have realised have a gift I can give to
:25:34. > :25:38.people. It is a vile, vile piece of work! And it makes you wonder
:25:39. > :25:43.whoever is involved with it, what on earth are they doing?! I wish the
:25:44. > :25:46.critics have the power... Well, we never did but we imagined we did. To
:25:47. > :25:54.say, you can never do anything in this world again! It felt like. .
:25:55. > :25:59.Everything you say I absolutely agree with. I'd just thought, first
:26:00. > :26:07.of all, is this real? I wasn't sure. This can't be real. Anything said by
:26:08. > :26:13.he, she, your eyebrow has to go up. But then I'd thought, it has to be
:26:14. > :26:22.real. The imagined myself being trapped on a rail line going out at
:26:23. > :26:27.6:15pm between two of the most boring, self-centred, banal account
:26:28. > :26:34.executives talking about some gadget that they were trying to... But
:26:35. > :26:45.doesn't the boringness speak to it about possibly being real? No, no,
:26:46. > :26:52.no. People don't talk like that No. It is icky as well. Regardless of
:26:53. > :26:55.whether it is real or not, it streams towards universality. In the
:26:56. > :27:00.text, they say, we want to be representative of all men and all
:27:01. > :27:05.women. But all good art comes from specificity. And so the things that
:27:06. > :27:09.make the woman specific, whether it is her mastectomy, whether it is
:27:10. > :27:13.about the guy having had this other woman in Seattle, these things are
:27:14. > :27:17.brushed over in this yearning desire to be universal. But are they
:27:18. > :27:20.brushed over? Because there is another creepy bit with her
:27:21. > :27:25.depression and he talks about how much more he prefers sex when she is
:27:26. > :27:28.depressed. Kander and Ebb should have made a musical out of this
:27:29. > :27:32.This I would have gone to see because it would have been an
:27:33. > :27:40.incredible New York satire with the dialogue. You have the ultimate
:27:41. > :27:44.piece of work like this, and you go to a work like that because you will
:27:45. > :27:50.find wit and some idea of the world. Two people you want to engage with.
:27:51. > :27:56.It isn't going to be a musical but it will be a play. Abby Morgan is
:27:57. > :28:04.going to adapt it. If you take it as an object that is going to be
:28:05. > :28:07.contrived, even if you take it seriously that there are ideas and
:28:08. > :28:12.there, the ideas as they are going to be translated into a serious
:28:13. > :28:18.context, that is really disturbing. But some of the most absurd things
:28:19. > :28:28.ever written turn out to be wonderful onstage. This is likely
:28:29. > :28:34.first raft of When Harry Met Sally! Let's move on to a different book.
:28:35. > :28:38.The Embassy Of Cambodia by Zadie Smith. I think it shares a lot of
:28:39. > :28:42.the things with The Mistress Contract because it is a weird kind
:28:43. > :28:47.of gift book. Let them read Zadie Smith. It is a short story in The
:28:48. > :28:50.New Yorker, technically very lovely. But I am still distracted. I'm
:28:51. > :28:54.trying not to be because it seems again to be coming away from
:28:55. > :28:58.whatever is in the story, but I am still distracted by the idea that it
:28:59. > :29:02.is in a book now. That it has become a book. You are queueing up at
:29:03. > :29:09.Waterstones and you have bought what you bought and you grab the Zadie
:29:10. > :29:13.Smith, they'll gift books. -- they are gift books. But I wonder that we
:29:14. > :29:18.are complaining about the over edited nature of books, isn't this
:29:19. > :29:23.something special? There is something economic about it. Though
:29:24. > :29:26.I have to say in its defence, it lingered in my mind and in my
:29:27. > :29:32.thoughts for a lot longer and the irony is, you were saying there were
:29:33. > :29:36.comparisons between them. The character in this book is clearly
:29:37. > :29:39.fictional but feels real. In a way that in the other book they are
:29:40. > :29:44.meant to be real but they feel fictional. And I've felt this was
:29:45. > :29:50.actually... It felt like it was a brief glance at the character who is
:29:51. > :29:52.bigger than this book. This is the character Fatou who is the African
:29:53. > :30:02.maid and effectively a domestic slave. Zadie Smith is a big heart.
:30:03. > :30:09.You know this woman. She has a wonderful ear and she is an observer
:30:10. > :30:17.of people. She is in a mimicking stage for something. It is kind of
:30:18. > :30:23.like quake -- lightweight. There is a bit where she talks about is a
:30:24. > :30:28.poet would be, she talks about Willesden. I am still not convinced
:30:29. > :30:36.of Willesden as a Monday in her world yet. It is still not... It is
:30:37. > :30:42.still her landscape? Been rubbing it is better hearing her. She has
:30:43. > :30:46.miniaturised it is a bit. It is not Willesden I recognised. Here it is a
:30:47. > :30:50.bit different. It is a flaky thing. I am wondering whether there is a
:30:51. > :30:54.series of stories that build up and they are produced in this way. It
:30:55. > :30:58.might be kind of interesting. Nothing that Rizzi -- redeems this
:30:59. > :31:06.book and will linger with me is that Zadie Smith, her love golf human
:31:07. > :31:11.being. -- her love of human beings. She's a writer with a big heart
:31:12. > :31:16.Both The Embassy of Cambodia and the mistress contracts are out now. It
:31:17. > :31:19.is 30 years since singer songwriter Roddy Frame with the band Aztec
:31:20. > :31:22.Camera released High Land Hard Rain, widely considered a
:31:23. > :31:28.cornerstone album for British guitar pop. To celebrate its anniversary
:31:29. > :31:31.Roddy will be touring the UK December and will be hearing a
:31:32. > :31:34.classic track from that album later in the show. Now, in his first
:31:35. > :31:39.television appearance in more than 14 years, here is a song from his
:31:40. > :31:45.new album due out next spring. This is white pony.
:31:46. > :31:58.# Make a wish, get an invitation on your favourite station
:31:59. > :32:06.# You made something out of nothing # An afternoon song and memory
:32:07. > :32:10.# See the flower of your heart mine is opening to
:32:11. > :32:15.# Don't let it dry # You will drive a car
:32:16. > :32:26.# Over the edge # Of a cliff
:32:27. > :32:31.# Learn to ride a white pony, fly and keep the feeling in your bones
:32:32. > :33:04.for when the days are tracking and the nights are lonely
:33:05. > :33:24.# School where our fathers learned # Beneath the bounds of open-air
:33:25. > :33:35.# Still frost, our hearts # So we go out, knocking around
:33:36. > :33:44.# Talking about # The weekend
:33:45. > :33:50.# Inside freezing over can't hide you are thinking like a stone
:33:51. > :34:01.# And all you want is a nasty feeling
:34:02. > :34:11.# So go try on the night # The dress, the shoes, the games
:34:12. > :34:48.# It's not for ever # The art of who you are
:34:49. > :35:03.Is # In the night I hope that you've
:35:04. > :35:05.found love that will rise and the sound
:35:06. > :35:08.# Life is fast chasing after good times
:35:09. > :35:13.# Flashed past and then you realise sometimes
:35:14. > :35:19.# You've got to stop and look around #.
:35:20. > :35:23.And you can hear full more from Roddy at the end of the show. The
:35:24. > :35:26.sexually explicit drama Blue is the Warmest Colour took the Palme D Or
:35:27. > :35:30.at this year's Cannes Film Festival but has been dogged by controversy
:35:31. > :35:35.ever since. The film's lead actresses told the press that I --
:35:36. > :35:38.that the director's demands on sets left exhausted and one said the
:35:39. > :35:41.experience made her feel like a prostitute while the director
:35:42. > :35:45.himself subsequently stated those allegations had sullied his film and
:35:46. > :35:49.even threatened that it might not be released in cinemas. There seems to
:35:50. > :35:52.have been something of a rapprochement as the film-maker and
:35:53. > :35:57.one of his stars were in London together recently to promote the
:35:58. > :36:03.film which is out this month. The film charts a passionate affair
:36:04. > :36:08.between Emma, an art student played by Lea Seydoux and Adele, a teenage
:36:09. > :36:19.schoolgirl played by Adele Exarchopoulos. It follows Adele s
:36:20. > :36:26.awakening as she embraces her sexual identity and becomes news to her
:36:27. > :36:30.older lover. Everything is new for her, she is out of high school, she
:36:31. > :36:55.hasn't got much experience but she wants to try everything.
:36:56. > :37:01.He may say that but the film is also notable for its lengthy, graphic sex
:37:02. > :37:05.scenes. Ella Bobbin I can understand that it is the story sometimes the
:37:06. > :37:09.people but for us it was important to show people. Sex is legal and
:37:10. > :37:34.important for everyone. The tension on set has been well
:37:35. > :37:37.documented. The director required multiple retakes of key scenes and
:37:38. > :37:56.his camera keeps a close eye on Adele throughout.
:37:57. > :38:05.At the heart of this film is a coming-of-age story, isn't it? This
:38:06. > :38:11.is about two people, a young girl, a young person, who discovers who she
:38:12. > :38:16.is. She discovers her first love and the pain of that and it is very much
:38:17. > :38:21.the kind of film true folk would have made if he were alive today. It
:38:22. > :38:28.is like that, all the way down to the heroin which reminds me of
:38:29. > :38:34.another film. It is the whole idea of loss, of redemption, even the end
:38:35. > :38:41.of it is like the film where she walks away. It is a very beautiful
:38:42. > :38:47.film. It is a traditional art movie. It is poignant, nostalgic in a time
:38:48. > :38:50.when arts cinema seems to have a possibility to change things. There
:38:51. > :38:54.was an idealistic optimism, if you like. What I notice more than
:38:55. > :38:57.anything is that when you release this kind of so-called art cinema
:38:58. > :39:01.now it becomes a celebrity and gets torn apart as if it is just a famous
:39:02. > :39:04.thing, another thing that has happened this week. So there is
:39:05. > :39:11.something interesting in that for me and I found it sort of nostalgic for
:39:12. > :39:15.an old kind of cinema because it is super -- superficially contemporary
:39:16. > :39:18.but there are no mobile phones or computers, it is set in a dream
:39:19. > :39:22.world and cinema is important and of course it is not any more. We have
:39:23. > :39:27.this very vulnerable young girl both the character and actually from
:39:28. > :39:34.what we can gather the actress as well. I wasn't as seduced by it It
:39:35. > :39:36.did look beautiful and the performances are astonishingly
:39:37. > :39:41.nationalistic but as I was watching it, because of the three lengthy sex
:39:42. > :39:45.scenes I kept asking myself was the price worth it to get to this
:39:46. > :39:50.performance and to get to this moment? -- naturalistic. When you
:39:51. > :39:54.read the interviews and what they have said, I know there has been
:39:55. > :39:58.some sort of rapprochement now but she was 18 when she made this and
:39:59. > :40:02.when you hear about 100 takes and it took ten days to film ten minutes
:40:03. > :40:05.there is a bit of me wonders whether the price to be paid was worth it
:40:06. > :40:09.for what you end up getting on-screen. I knew very little about
:40:10. > :40:13.it when I first saw it but there was still something slightly disturbing
:40:14. > :40:18.about those scenes in the sense of the male gaze, that is what I felt
:40:19. > :40:21.quite strongly. The whole of cinema is a white, male gaze to be blunt
:40:22. > :40:32.about it. That is what it is. The other part of this is this... That
:40:33. > :40:36.is a bit specific, isn't it? That is the way things are, I am not sure I
:40:37. > :40:41.-- saying how it should be. The second thing is this film owes
:40:42. > :40:45.nothing to American or British cinema or American or British
:40:46. > :40:48.sensibility, nothing. This is a completely European and French film
:40:49. > :40:54.and the fact that these scenes took so long is not about what happened
:40:55. > :41:02.in them, it is to show you the banality of it. See, what
:41:03. > :41:05.happens... What... It is the will power of the film-maker to still
:41:06. > :41:12.feel what he is doing is important. You could have extracted those
:41:13. > :41:16.minutes of sexy easily. What you are left with an away is what ultimately
:41:17. > :41:21.the film is like and I often feel at this stage people who talk about in
:41:22. > :41:27.such a way to watch enough soaps because in the end for me it is
:41:28. > :41:34.soapy, more ordinary than the hysterical elevation of it to work
:41:35. > :41:36.as art suggests. The three sex fiends overshadow the tenderness and
:41:37. > :41:41.the comedy and politics because there are some interesting scenes
:41:42. > :41:44.about class whether parents are introduced and one of the parents as
:41:45. > :41:48.working class and its past and meatballs and the other it's wasters
:41:49. > :41:52.and wine and there are lovely, tender moments but I felt basically
:41:53. > :41:57.the explicit scenes overshadowed that and then it kind of
:41:58. > :42:04.slightly... If you remember the camera, the film is all in close-up
:42:05. > :42:15.very, very much so. So the sex scenes have to be this way. Because
:42:16. > :42:20.these are young people. When she eats, it is messy. When they have
:42:21. > :42:26.sex, it is in a magazine approved way. I did not feel that way about
:42:27. > :42:32.it at all. They were too easy on the eye to make it a truly great film.
:42:33. > :42:36.These are two young ladies. It has to go through a certain process to
:42:37. > :42:39.be like that. You have to see what they did and how they did it because
:42:40. > :42:44.it is about their relationship, it is about who she is and in the end
:42:45. > :42:53.when she walks away that is also about who she is. I think it is an
:42:54. > :42:59.amazing piece of work. Two hours and 50. If it was any shorter it would
:43:00. > :43:03.be salacious and he had to give it that amount of time because it took
:43:04. > :43:07.that away, took that element right out of it. You can make your mind up
:43:08. > :43:12.about the film, Blue is the Warmest Colour is going to be in cinemas
:43:13. > :43:16.from November 22. More controversy now is it is Turner Prize time
:43:17. > :43:20.again. Each year this contemporary Art award grabs headlines, provokes
:43:21. > :43:23.the ire of countless columnists and stimulate debate about the
:43:24. > :43:29.state-of-the-art world. 2013 is the first time in its history that the
:43:30. > :43:37.prize has left England's shawls and decamped to Derry-Londonderry, the
:43:38. > :43:43.UK's current City of Culture. A converted army barracks is the venue
:43:44. > :43:48.for four different artists with very different approaches. Ranging from
:43:49. > :43:52.the conceptual to the very comic. I think it changes people's view of
:43:53. > :43:57.the city as a former military base so it is great to see it have a
:43:58. > :44:04.completely new life. Installation artist Laure Prouvost makes a
:44:05. > :44:08.surprisingly unsettling film. One of these showing against the backdrop
:44:09. > :44:13.of an abandoned tea party documents are relationship between her
:44:14. > :44:29.fictional grandfather and the German artist in the film.
:44:30. > :44:40.Tino Sehgal is best known for the events he constructs in which she
:44:41. > :44:44.want allowed to be filmed or photographed. It involves volunteers
:44:45. > :44:54.approaching visitors and asking for their views on the market economy.
:44:55. > :44:57.It was a lot about social change. How communication these days is
:44:58. > :45:05.instant and revolutions can happen quite quickly. David Shrigley
:45:06. > :45:09.injects a healthy dose of humour into the more serious contemporary
:45:10. > :45:13.art world. His witty and macabre slogans can often be found on
:45:14. > :45:18.postcards. But the centrepiece of this exhibit is an animal
:45:19. > :45:29.animatronic model which peas into a bucket. And there's even a painter
:45:30. > :45:35.on the short list. Lynette Yiadom-Boakye is the first black
:45:36. > :45:43.woman to appear in the prize. Her work is about how black subjects
:45:44. > :45:47.have been traditionally portrayed. We have our diverse range of medium
:45:48. > :45:51.is being used and presented and I think anybody who comes into this
:45:52. > :45:56.space will be really excited by what they see.
:45:57. > :46:02.Well, Bonnie, let's enter this exhibition in the way you do, in the
:46:03. > :46:06.barracks, and first, David Shrigley, the artist, the rather comic figure.
:46:07. > :46:12.What did you make of that? It is like a drawing class. I was there
:46:13. > :46:18.and a lot of children were there and they loved it. And to watch all of
:46:19. > :46:24.these young people engage with it. There wasn't any censorship or fear.
:46:25. > :46:30.They just took the piece of the sculpture that they could relate to
:46:31. > :46:37.and they process it through themselves Andrew it and that is
:46:38. > :46:52.what he wanted. -- they processed it and drew it. The animatronic man
:46:53. > :46:58.himself isn't particularly well done in the way they drew it. It was a
:46:59. > :47:02.nice way to enter because it was so witty. And unlike the way there was
:47:03. > :47:07.a democratic sense. Everyone from Martin McGuinness to the little
:47:08. > :47:11.kids, all touring around them. I don't think it is necessarily the
:47:12. > :47:17.most substantial or weighty entrants in the exhibition but was a way to
:47:18. > :47:21.walk in. And the body itself is so out of proportion that nobody could
:47:22. > :47:25.do a good drawing of it! Everybody's drawings were bad. It is
:47:26. > :47:32.a very good way of taking the sting out of the usual Turner Prize
:47:33. > :47:36.nonsense of "is it art? " . Everybody can respond. And the
:47:37. > :47:39.response is a lovely occurs in a way it is the replacement of the critics
:47:40. > :47:42.that you can respond in this way and I'd prefer this way rather than the
:47:43. > :47:53.bits at the end when you describe how you felt. -- it is a lovely
:47:54. > :47:58.response. It is very much that sense of, let's remove some of that sense
:47:59. > :48:02.of controversy by having a lovely introduction to what is about to
:48:03. > :48:09.happen. And there was whimsy, too, really. This work is based on her
:48:10. > :48:31.fictional grandfather, the tea party, and so on. It descends into
:48:32. > :48:35.absurdity and you can't quite decide whether the grandfather is real of
:48:36. > :48:45.entry. I think it outstayed its well, my wasn't quite sure how it
:48:46. > :48:49.integrated. -- eventually. I didn't feel like it was particularly well
:48:50. > :48:53.integrated together. They could argue that the darkness of the pot
:48:54. > :48:59.is added to this ghostly, slightly surreal feel about it. I felt like
:49:00. > :49:03.when you went into those caves in France with the prehistoric people
:49:04. > :49:07.who made the first drawings. There was a primal feeling. It was very
:49:08. > :49:12.storytelling. People were very quiet. They sat around and listened.
:49:13. > :49:16.It was half dark. And the story began to be woven in front. People
:49:17. > :49:21.were whispering to each other, is it real, is it not real? That is ready
:49:22. > :49:28.what this was all about. Very much about the whole basic primal nature
:49:29. > :49:35.of the narrative. And also the fire... And the failure, because you
:49:36. > :49:44.had a chair propped up by one of the bits of the fictional grandfather
:49:45. > :49:51.and the work of art. This is the Turner Prize piece that is
:49:52. > :49:53.questioning the nature of art. And you get that sense of
:49:54. > :49:56.self-consciousness about its own worth, and then that creeping is
:49:57. > :50:04.when you have to go into the tunnel into another room. This is
:50:05. > :50:06.grandma's dream. Yes. And that fragmentation of narrative is
:50:07. > :50:13.exciting but it takes a lot of time to work out. Let's go to the
:50:14. > :50:18.imaginary portraits by Lynette Yiadom-Boakye. And her idea, really,
:50:19. > :50:22.is that she has taken these fragments she has collected in scrap
:50:23. > :50:29.hooks, glances of people, and created these portraits. And each
:50:30. > :50:33.one is created in a day alone. I've found this mesmerising. You say they
:50:34. > :50:38.are portraits and they aren't really true but in some way she was
:50:39. > :50:42.creating an archive that hasn't been created in the past. Because these
:50:43. > :50:46.are all the people who would not necessarily historically have been
:50:47. > :50:49.painted. So I've felt in their looseness and the way they look at
:50:50. > :50:55.the camera, the tenderness and intimacy in their relaxerness, they
:50:56. > :51:01.look like people caught on camera very gently in the moment. And they
:51:02. > :51:05.did feel real to me. I thought this was somebody trying to excavate a
:51:06. > :51:12.reclaim the story and a past that had not been captured so far, so for
:51:13. > :51:15.me that was a standout. I sell very much an expose response to these.
:51:16. > :51:23.They were very provocative and transgressive. You walk into a
:51:24. > :51:30.gallery that looks a bit on scale, like paintings by Manet and we're,
:51:31. > :51:38.the 19th-century heroic tradition. -- and Goya. People would have been
:51:39. > :51:42.very tiny in these paintings and in the background, and she puts them in
:51:43. > :51:50.the foreground but uses the techniques of a David or queer. And
:51:51. > :51:55.these portraits are huge. She does these in a day. And that is what is
:51:56. > :51:58.funny. That's what makes you laugh because she is laughing at this
:51:59. > :52:09.whole idea of this kind of mighty Western mail dominance. -- male
:52:10. > :52:13.dominance. If I hadn't known that they would on the way she did then,
:52:14. > :52:18.there was a lot about it I felt I needed to know to make sense and if
:52:19. > :52:21.I had just come in on them, the idea that they are fragments from a
:52:22. > :52:26.narrative that is a complete, the idea that they are very in the
:52:27. > :52:31.history of art, if I didn't know any of that, how would I have felt if I
:52:32. > :52:38.do know that? Let's move on to the last one. A gigantic, empty space at
:52:39. > :52:47.first until you are approached by an interpreter. This is Tino Sehgal.
:52:48. > :52:51.Yes, who starts by asking you your view on the market economy and if
:52:52. > :52:55.you get the answer right at the end you get ?2! It sounds good on paper
:52:56. > :53:00.as a concept but I've felt a bit flat about it. One of the reasons
:53:01. > :53:03.is, this was originally from 20 3, and you think, the conversations we
:53:04. > :53:07.would have been having back then would be very different from now but
:53:08. > :53:11.there is no recording of any of this stuff. It is very difficult to get
:53:12. > :53:16.any sense of perspective for linearity about it. I didn't know
:53:17. > :53:23.anything about this guy and nobody told me anything about him. So I
:53:24. > :53:26.walked in there and this is the only piece, and I'd guess if you are
:53:27. > :53:31.going to have this at the Turner Prize, you have to have something
:53:32. > :53:35.about this sort of the prize. This is non-narrative. There is no
:53:36. > :53:47.narrative here. The questions you ask the work itself. In fact, it is
:53:48. > :53:51.good at that. Even to ask that question is it. Do you see what I'm
:53:52. > :53:54.mean? I think it had a very strong sense of place because it was in
:53:55. > :54:00.Ireland and a lot of people ended up talking about housing, property the
:54:01. > :54:05.crash. And it rooted it in Derry. I would give the prize to Derry. The
:54:06. > :54:11.closest you can get to that is this because this is local people... You
:54:12. > :54:21.know, talking about... They are the installation, if you like.
:54:22. > :54:24.Absolutely. It is by far and away the most grown-up of the four
:54:25. > :54:27.pieces. I would love to see what he is doing in 20, 25 years. I don t
:54:28. > :54:39.want to know what the others are doing even next year. Exactly. Even
:54:40. > :54:43.when I was there, a bunch of guys came in, the questions were asked,
:54:44. > :54:47.local Derry men, they were absolutely incensed. They left the
:54:48. > :54:54.room mumbling and almost violently left, and I thought, that is it I
:54:55. > :54:58.love Paul's idea of giving the prize for Derry because this was such a
:54:59. > :55:02.special exhibition for a town that has been through so much. Use to
:55:03. > :55:08.coverage in the Troubles. The decisions taken over Bloody Sunday.
:55:09. > :55:19.It has now been transformed. -- are used to cover it. I had never been
:55:20. > :55:23.to Derry, Londonderry, so for me, my association with it is about the
:55:24. > :55:28.Turner Prize. So just the fact that might association with it is art and
:55:29. > :55:31.culture rather than what it was is indicative of what art can do. If
:55:32. > :55:38.you would like to see this exhibition for yourself in Derry,
:55:39. > :55:42.Londonderry, the exhibition runs until fabric the fifth. The winners
:55:43. > :55:46.will be announced on the 22nd of December. If you want to find out
:55:47. > :55:50.more about any of the items featured on this show, do go to the website,
:55:51. > :55:55.and you can always follow us on Twitter. Thank you to my guests
:55:56. > :55:58.Paul Morley, Bonnie Greer and Sarfraz Manzoor. We leave you now
:55:59. > :56:01.with more music from Roddy Frame and an absolute classic from High Land
:56:02. > :56:16.Hard Rain. # From the mountain tops down to the
:56:17. > :56:20.sunny street. # A different drum is playing a
:56:21. > :56:23.different kind of beat. # It's like a mystery that never
:56:24. > :56:27.ends. # I see you crying and I want to
:56:28. > :56:30.kill your friends. # I hear your footsteps in the
:56:31. > :56:36.street. # It won't be long before we meet.
:56:37. > :56:41.# It's obvious. # Just count me in and count me out.
:56:42. > :56:49.# And I'll be waiting for the shout. # Oblivious.
:56:50. > :56:53.# Met Mo and she's OK, said no-one really changed.
:56:54. > :56:57.# Got different badges but they wear them just the same.
:56:58. > :57:04.# But down by the ballroom I recognised that flaming fountain.
:57:05. > :57:06.# In those kindered caring eyes # I hear your footsteps in the
:57:07. > :57:11.street. # It won't be long before we meet.
:57:12. > :57:16.# It's obvious. # Just count me in and count me out.
:57:17. > :57:25.# And I'll be waiting for the shout. # Oblivious.
:57:26. > :57:31.# I hope it haunts me till I'm hopeless.
:57:32. > :57:34.# I hope it hits you when you go. # And sometimes on the edge of
:57:35. > :57:38.sleeping. # It rises up to let me know it s
:57:39. > :58:12.not so deep. # I'm not so slow.
:58:13. > :58:25.# They are calling all the shots music
:58:26. > :58:29.# They have got the bullets and there's no one left to shoot.
:58:30. > :58:32.# I hear your footsteps in the street.
:58:33. > :58:35.# It won't be long before we meet. # It's obvious.
:58:36. > :58:39.# Just count me in and count me out. # And I'll be waiting for the shout.
:58:40. > :58:41.# Oblivious. # I hear your footsteps in the
:58:42. > :58:45.street. # It won't be long before we meet.
:58:46. > :58:51.# It's obvious. # Just count me in and count me out.
:58:52. > :58:58.# And I'll be waiting for the shout. # Oblivious.