:00:30. > :00:35.Tonight on the review show, below stpairs on the Titanic, will Julain
:00:35. > :00:39.Fellowes -- stairs on the Titanic, will Julain Fellowes's take on the
:00:39. > :00:44.disaster, go down as well as Downton Abbey.
:00:44. > :00:48.Jo Nesbo sells a book every 23 second, his latest hits the shops
:00:48. > :00:53.this week. A dancing Jeremy Paxman, and
:00:53. > :00:57.Islamic extremists, in a polemic against multiculturalism at the
:00:57. > :01:05.National Theatre. And the true tale of a family that rescues a rundown
:01:05. > :01:10.zoo, from the director of Jerry Maguire, and Almost Famous, Cameron
:01:10. > :01:16.Crowe. We will look ahead to the Edinburgh Festival. Casting their
:01:16. > :01:20.critical eyes over it, Bettany Hughes, whose books and TV series
:01:20. > :01:24.matches painstaking research with popular appeal, she chaired last
:01:24. > :01:29.year's Orange Prize. The arts editor of the Daily Telegraph,
:01:29. > :01:33.Sarah Crompton, and two award- winning crime writers, Ian Rankin
:01:33. > :01:40.of the rebus novels, and Dreda Say Mitchell, whose thrillers are set
:01:40. > :01:44.on the mean streets of London. As ever we welcome your thoughts, get
:01:44. > :01:49.in touch during the show. If you were looking for a radical life
:01:49. > :01:53.change, moving to a rundown zoo, and learning how to look after 200
:01:53. > :02:00.exotic species, might not be the first option you would come up with.
:02:00. > :02:07.That is exactly what one man Z now director, Crowe, whose -- And now
:02:07. > :02:13.director Cameron Crowe, whose films include Almost Famous has turned
:02:13. > :02:18.the story into a family. Benjamin Mee uprooted his children from
:02:18. > :02:22.their home in the south of France, to Dartmoor, to turn around the
:02:22. > :02:27.fortunes of a delapitated zoo, within six months his wife had died
:02:27. > :02:32.of cancer, and Mee was facing bankruptcy, as the zoo swallowed up
:02:32. > :02:40.his savings. With the help of a dedicated team, Mee re-opened the
:02:40. > :02:50.zoo to the public on schedule in July 23007, with over 200 -- in
:02:50. > :02:51.
:02:51. > :02:55.July 20007, with over 200 animals. The novel, We Bought A Zoo, came
:02:55. > :03:01.out, and Cameron Crowe has now turned it into a film, with Matt
:03:01. > :03:08.Damon and Scarlett Johansson in the lead roles, he has changed the
:03:08. > :03:15.story dramatically. This is Robin and Peter, they do everything.
:03:15. > :03:23.Benjamin. This is Rosie my daughter. My big boy Dylan, and our dog, Leon.
:03:23. > :03:29.And this is our zoo, now, I guess. So I would like to declare us all
:03:29. > :03:35.modern day adventurers. And sponsors of animal greatness.
:03:35. > :03:39.The film follows Mee's mixed fortunes as he battles to keep the
:03:39. > :03:42.zoo afloat, while trying to connect with his rebellious son Dylan, who
:03:42. > :03:46.prefers city life to the countryside. So, what do we talk
:03:46. > :03:56.about, a new place, a new start. This is what you want, it is not
:03:56. > :03:58.
:03:58. > :04:02.what I want. What? It's a zoo, I'm moving to a zoo. As well as
:04:02. > :04:07.grieving for his late wife, Mee also has to get to grips with the
:04:07. > :04:16.animal world. You like to get a little wild at night, go a little
:04:16. > :04:22.crazy, a little crazy nightime. Crowe's last two features,
:04:22. > :04:26.Elizabethtown and Vanilla Sky got mixed reviews, this film certainly
:04:26. > :04:33.has a big name cast and family- friendly subject, does it mark a
:04:33. > :04:39.return to form for Crowe, or is it a masterclass in Hollywood smalts.
:04:39. > :04:47.Welcome to the business of live animal maintenance Mr Mee, you are
:04:47. > :04:51.eight inches short. A tough hard-bitten crime writer
:04:51. > :05:01.like yourself, Ian, you are not the target audience for this? It is
:05:01. > :05:01.
:05:01. > :05:08.interesting to see Damon in a film like this, I enjoyed it. I switched
:05:08. > :05:11.my brain off when I walked in the door, it is very sacharine, smaltzy,
:05:11. > :05:15.and American, a lot of things are left out of shot, like animals
:05:15. > :05:20.dying, and the fact that they are kept in cages, they keep saying
:05:20. > :05:26.enclosures, but you can see the tigers in cages for a lot of the
:05:27. > :05:31.shots. There is a lot they could have done with it, but they didn't
:05:31. > :05:35.do it. Cameron Crowe had a hardness to him before, but now he's a gun
:05:35. > :05:40.for hire, a director for hire, he hasn't been able to put his stamp
:05:40. > :05:44.on it that would have made it an interesting film. You have a young
:05:44. > :05:48.family yourself, would you take the young family yourself? It should be
:05:48. > :05:52.on message to me, I love kids, animals, and I love men who don't
:05:52. > :05:57.take no for an answer, it should have been perfect. As you said,
:05:57. > :06:02.there is something almost missing in it, I wonder if it is because it
:06:02. > :06:07.is such an extraordinary story, the real story is amazing, they had
:06:07. > :06:11.incredible source material, it is almost like they didn't go through
:06:11. > :06:20.the synaptic work of dreaming up a story. It feels like a first draft.
:06:20. > :06:24.It is quite, it is so gentle, you collapse in your chair by the end
:06:24. > :06:28.of it, we should be weeping throughout. I liked it but not
:06:28. > :06:35.great. It is an interesting one, I shouldn't like to this film, I have
:06:35. > :06:39.strong objections to zoos, that wasn't tackled T should be a film
:06:39. > :06:45.about a man looking after animals in a zoo. It wasn't that, all you
:06:45. > :06:49.had in relation to animals was the tiger drawn out his story as a
:06:49. > :06:52.metaphor, that is why in some respects I really liked it, it
:06:52. > :06:55.doesn't pretend to be something other than it is, it is a load of
:06:55. > :06:59.sugar, a lots of hugging and learning, let's learn about
:06:59. > :07:03.togetherness and grief. That is what it is about, really. I really
:07:03. > :07:10.like, because I love JB Smoot, who played the estate agent, who played
:07:10. > :07:13.Leon in Curb Your Enthusiasm, I wish we had seen for of him. There
:07:13. > :07:18.was one thing I thought was a bit strange about this, sometimes the
:07:18. > :07:21.depiction of women, you get these really opposite views, you get the
:07:21. > :07:26.Scarlett Johansson, Kelly figure, tough, I can look after a zoo, be
:07:26. > :07:30.like a fella. Then you get these images of women bringing men food
:07:30. > :07:35.all the time. At the start you have women bringing Matt Damon, the dad,
:07:35. > :07:39.he's on his own, food. And the 13- year-old, as well, bringing the son
:07:39. > :07:43.food, I thought what is that about. Did it fall between two stools, so
:07:43. > :07:49.we have a film with some very cute roles for children, but then the
:07:49. > :07:53.grief of the money, explored through this extended metaphor of
:07:53. > :08:00.the dying tiger? You can see the film it might have been. Cameron
:08:00. > :08:04.Crowe apparently sent Matt Damon a copy of Local Hero, and said this
:08:04. > :08:08.is what I want it to be. You would love it to be that, it hasn't got
:08:08. > :08:13.the poise, it tips over into smaltz a lot. What is great about it, it
:08:13. > :08:16.is also, I think that Cameron Crowe wanted to make a different movie,
:08:16. > :08:19.he undercuts himself. There is a brilliant cameo for the brother.
:08:19. > :08:23.There is a very sacharine letter from the dead wife, where she
:08:23. > :08:28.leaves him some money, conveniently, to save the zoo, it is beautifully
:08:28. > :08:32.undercut in the scene, because the brother said, it is a nasty bit
:08:32. > :08:37.here, it is when it is rude about the brother, and saying don't take
:08:37. > :08:40.the brother's advice. He managed to walk the balance to just undercut
:08:40. > :08:45.himself enough for the film to have charm. It was a charming film, and
:08:45. > :08:49.much to my surprise, I really did like it. You can see a scene now
:08:49. > :08:53.that explores the relationship between Matt Damon and his brother.
:08:53. > :09:00.The risk of stating the obvious, you are insane, OK. You are
:09:01. > :09:07.drilling yourself into insane debt. You good? All good, thanks.
:09:07. > :09:13.Who is that? That's Kelly. OK, here is the revised Duncan plan, dump
:09:13. > :09:17.the animals, keep Kelly, that is true joy. It is about Rosie, she is
:09:17. > :09:23.happy here. Rosie is seven, make her a nice zoo screensaver, she
:09:23. > :09:26.will be just as happy. I'm trying to give them an authentic American
:09:26. > :09:31.experience. An authentic American experience, but the original story
:09:31. > :09:36.was a British one. Would it have been a better film if Cameron Crowe
:09:36. > :09:39.had decided to make it more like Local Hero and set it in Europe?
:09:39. > :09:45.don't know, America has sometimes taken this structure and did it
:09:45. > :09:48.well, they did High Fidelity and took it to America and it worked
:09:48. > :09:51.well. They probably thought they would get that here. They have
:09:51. > :09:56.great actors, they just don't get terrific lines, they do
:09:56. > :10:00.occasionally get good lines. The line about the screensaver, I
:10:00. > :10:06.laughed out loud in the cinema. big move for Crowe, but a very big
:10:06. > :10:12.move for Matt Damon. I know he was slightly smaltzy in Good Will
:10:12. > :10:18.Hunting, in recent years he has been Bourne, he's not doing that
:10:18. > :10:22.any more. He has moved gracefully from this super mass murdering hero,
:10:22. > :10:24.into this slightly paunchy dad. We love him for it. There is a moment
:10:24. > :10:28.at the beginning where all the wives and all the house wives in
:10:28. > :10:34.the school are desperately trying to give him food, to feed him up
:10:34. > :10:38.because they love him. You think he's great, Matt Damon. I think the
:10:38. > :10:42.son is really good, Colin Ford, a real discoverry he comes out, in a
:10:42. > :10:45.way, with one of the best lines of the show, he's so furious with his
:10:45. > :10:49.father, he says this is all just rubbish, I wanted a bit more of
:10:49. > :10:53.that. The real story of Ben, it is all really rubbish, it is raining
:10:53. > :10:58.in Devon, everything is collapsing, that was the one moment of reality.
:10:58. > :11:04.It is going to be OK for him, as a 14-year-old, he will get off with a
:11:04. > :11:08.13-year-old girl. The film is in cinemas now, Matt Damon's next role
:11:08. > :11:13.will be as Liberace's lover. Even more of a stretch.
:11:13. > :11:16.The Scandinavian crime fiction wave shows no sign of slowing down.
:11:16. > :11:19.Norwegian writer Jo Nesbo's worldwide book sales have just
:11:19. > :11:23.topped 14 million. And from this week you will be seeing a lot of
:11:23. > :11:27.people with their noses in the late e of his Harry Hole detective
:11:27. > :11:31.series. Fans await the publication of a new
:11:31. > :11:36.Nesbo novel with a dedication that would shame most Harry Potter
:11:36. > :11:39.devotee, even his publishers find it difficult to keep up with his
:11:39. > :11:45.soaring sales figures. Phantom begins with former detective, Harry
:11:45. > :11:49.Hole, returning to Oslo, after a three-year absence, to investigate
:11:49. > :11:53.the death of a drug addict. The twist is, that the suspect is
:11:53. > :11:58.Harry's own stepson, from a previous relationship.
:11:58. > :12:03.The Phantom Menace I had a couple of plans for -- the Phantom, I had
:12:03. > :12:06.a couple of plans for that book, firstly to portray Harry as the
:12:06. > :12:12.father, what kind of father figure he would be. In the previous book
:12:12. > :12:17.we had met hareyo as the son, it is personal, it is -- Harry as the son,
:12:17. > :12:25.it is personal, very personal. That has been the journey we have been
:12:25. > :12:29.through with Harry during this series is it gets more personal.
:12:29. > :12:39.There is extreme violence in previous books but Phantom is not
:12:39. > :12:45.
:12:45. > :12:50.Had found a main artery with a corkscrew, pulled the vessel from
:12:50. > :12:53.his neck, and it was now pumping out his life blood. Sergei had
:12:53. > :12:58.three further thoughts before the second heart beat came, and
:12:58. > :13:02.consciousness went. Crime novelists have often used cities as
:13:03. > :13:07.characters in their own right, and Nesbo uses Norway's capital to
:13:08. > :13:13.similar effect. I wanted to portray Oslo, the dark side of Oslo, I have
:13:13. > :13:20.done that in previous books also. But I think that this time we are
:13:20. > :13:30.going even deeper down into the cellar of Oslo. Investigating the
:13:30. > :13:30.
:13:30. > :13:38.drug scene in Oslo, quite detailed descriptions, which is half built
:13:38. > :13:42.on facts, half is fiction, of course. But I have never done so
:13:42. > :13:48.detailed and thorough research ever for any of my books. So does Nesbo
:13:48. > :13:54.bring Oslo's underbelly to life? Will his legions of fans be
:13:54. > :13:58.satisfied with Harry Hole's latest adventures.
:13:58. > :14:03.What did your professional crime writing eye make of this? I just
:14:03. > :14:08.really, really loved it. I should be wearing an "I love Harry Hole"
:14:08. > :14:13.T-shirt. I loved them so much. What I love about Jo Nesbo's work, is it
:14:13. > :14:17.is not because it is a thriller and it is gripping and it thrills, he
:14:17. > :14:20.just uses such beautiful, simple but dramatic language to get into
:14:20. > :14:24.each character. With Phantom I very much got into the pilot's story,
:14:24. > :14:28.and I shouldn't be thinking about the pilot story, I should be
:14:28. > :14:31.thinking about sore characters, that is what he does so well --
:14:31. > :14:35.other characters, that is what he does so well, he draws you in, and
:14:35. > :14:38.draws you into that underbelly of Oslo. It is very interesting he was
:14:38. > :14:42.talking about doing research, to me when you are in a city, I don't
:14:42. > :14:47.think that type of thing is too far from you, which is a bit scary.
:14:48. > :14:51.you agree, is he a crime writer's crime writer? I wouldn't agree as
:14:51. > :15:00.strongly as that. He does something very interesting, which is to take
:15:00. > :15:09.the structure and the trops of the traditional who done it, and then
:15:09. > :15:14.take a stick of adrenalin and stick it in the eyeball. Harry Hole is
:15:14. > :15:18.basically Jason Borne, you can kill him he won't die, you can cut his
:15:18. > :15:24.throat, he won't die, he will sew himself up and keep going. He
:15:24. > :15:31.doesn't go to the hospital, he goes on a run, you think why, you don't
:15:31. > :15:34.have to go, you killed an assassin before people who know it was self-
:15:34. > :15:39.defence, you are only going on a run because the story demands it. A
:15:39. > :15:43.lot of it, he's clever, he has looked at thriller writers down the
:15:43. > :15:46.ages, and looked at what has done really well in the states, and
:15:46. > :15:51.looked at the history of Scandinavian and European crime
:15:51. > :15:55.fiction, and put them all together, put them in a blender and come up
:15:55. > :16:00.with this. You hadn't read Jo Nesbo before, what did you make of it?
:16:00. > :16:04.was so looking forward to reading it, as a guilty pleasure,
:16:04. > :16:07.immerseing myself in the dark Scandinavian world. I loved the
:16:07. > :16:10.last third of it, I realised how clever the plot was at the end, I
:16:10. > :16:15.didn't like the first two thirds. He's not a I go that understands
:16:15. > :16:21.girls, I suspect. The women are lightly drawn in this. There is a
:16:21. > :16:25.moment where the mother of one of the central characters, her son has
:16:25. > :16:31.gone through this terrible experience, at the end she says she
:16:31. > :16:36.will fly off to Bangkok and wait for him to enjoy it. No mother
:16:36. > :16:41.would do that. He gets excited about the feminine side and says
:16:41. > :16:44.the slim legs of a palm tree, I don't know what is going on there.
:16:44. > :16:51.Female characters to the side, the character of Harry Hole, that we
:16:51. > :16:55.have touched on, is he more than a Borne character, he's the hard-
:16:55. > :16:58.drinking, alcoholic, loner, trouble with women, he's the kind of
:16:58. > :17:02.detective we have seen in other books? I think he has become
:17:02. > :17:07.slightly tedious, I have read a few of these. He's too troubled for me,
:17:07. > :17:12.I'm bored with him and his alcohol problems and his obsession with
:17:12. > :17:15.Raquel, and also with his Superman qualities. What I like in a
:17:15. > :17:20.detective novel, or a crime novel is you do have a sense of the
:17:20. > :17:26.society from which it is springing. I think Nesbo's a brilliant plotter,
:17:26. > :17:29.he writes beautifully and directly, but I really resist this idea that
:17:29. > :17:33.some how you get a brilliant picture of Oslo. You just get a
:17:33. > :17:39.picture of the drugs scene, not terribly interesting. If you read
:17:39. > :17:44.Ian you get a picture of the Scottish oil industry, if you read
:17:44. > :17:50.Dreda you get South-East London. He's too mechanical, he knows all
:17:50. > :17:53.the tricks, and does them beautifully. I was gripped, I
:17:53. > :17:58.disagree, I read it in a day-and-a- half. I was so gripped by it. I
:17:58. > :18:02.think, if you are a crime writer, or any type of writer, if you can
:18:02. > :18:06.create a world where you make your reader feel this is authentic, I
:18:06. > :18:13.think the reader gives you a sense, you can take the reader, you could
:18:13. > :18:18.just go with it really. I don't feel it is authentic. Did you not
:18:18. > :18:22.feel a sense of authenticness about when the characters were near the
:18:22. > :18:28.canal, with the drug dealers with their Arsenal T-shirts, couldn't
:18:28. > :18:31.you visualisia. I liked that the bad guys wore Arsenal T-shirts, as
:18:31. > :18:37.a Spurs supporter! What did you think about the way the drug
:18:37. > :18:41.culture was depicted? Had he done his research, it is sleazey. Why he
:18:41. > :18:45.enjoyed immerseing himself in the world, he thinks the mind is
:18:45. > :18:51.incredibly important, you get a sense of, and the body lets you
:18:51. > :18:56.down. For Harry it is the alcoholism that does it for him,
:18:56. > :19:00.and the son is done by the cravings of his body. I'm going to give that
:19:00. > :19:04.to my teenage daughter to say drugs are bad and read these sections.
:19:04. > :19:07.is very convoluted, towards the end I'm thinking I don't know who these
:19:07. > :19:11.people are, there is too many characters and I don't know who
:19:11. > :19:15.they are. Lots of little false avenues to be led down, to be drawn
:19:15. > :19:19.back somewhere else. Also I thought some of the language was clunky. I
:19:19. > :19:24.think the translation more than anything else. He talks about
:19:24. > :19:29.Cockney Norwegian, I'm sure he wouldn't have written that phrase.
:19:29. > :19:39.He did say he to end down the violence for this? I was glad. I
:19:39. > :19:39.
:19:39. > :19:43.swore I wouldn't read another book after At Knowman, I haunted me --
:19:43. > :19:47.the Snowman, it haunted me, I thought if I read something like
:19:47. > :19:50.that it has to have a moral. It doesn't seem he does that, it is
:19:50. > :19:54.all surface and clever. He has to end down the violence, I think he
:19:55. > :19:59.felt he had gone too far. I feel that waste of timeness about it.
:19:59. > :20:03.What is it about Scandinavian crime fiction, why have we gone for it in
:20:03. > :20:07.such a big way? I'm not really sure, I think they put much more into
:20:07. > :20:10.looking at society, I know some people will disagree that this book
:20:11. > :20:15.doesn't. What I really like with Scandinavian crime, which doesn't
:20:15. > :20:19.sound like me, it has a real feeling of Mel alcoholy, and
:20:19. > :20:23.sadness about -- melancholy, and sadness about it, I don't want to
:20:23. > :20:27.feel too depressed, I get drawn into it, I like the violence. It is
:20:27. > :20:32.a crime boo, let's have some violence. I -- book, let's have
:20:32. > :20:36.some violence in it. I'm much more squeamish than you, I was flicked
:20:36. > :20:40.some of the pages. Phantom is available now. Murder and violence
:20:40. > :20:45.also feature in a controversial new production at the National Theatre,
:20:45. > :20:50.but this time the deaths aren't fictional. Can We Talk About This
:20:50. > :20:55.is an attack on Islamic extremism and the multiculturalist policies,
:20:55. > :21:04.which the creator believes allow violence to flourish. It is told in
:21:04. > :21:09.part, through the medium of dance. Celebrating its 25th anniversary
:21:09. > :21:14.this year. DV8 shows no sign of of stopping its uncompromising
:21:14. > :21:20.approach. It was a response to clags kal ballet and other
:21:20. > :21:24.traditional dance forms. The subgts explored are disability, sexuality,
:21:24. > :21:34.to serial killers, evolving on stage and screen, through landmark
:21:34. > :21:43.
:21:43. > :21:46.works like Strange Fish, and Enter Achilles.
:21:46. > :21:50.Can We Talk About This ask the question, do you feel superior to
:21:50. > :21:57.the Taliban. It says there is a lack of criticism of some forms of
:21:57. > :22:02.Islam, a form of cultural relativism. My brother said when we
:22:02. > :22:06.find you you will end up in several bin liners. Democracy and freedom
:22:06. > :22:14.is no good for the British, no good for the freedom of Afghanistan and
:22:14. > :22:17.we need an alternative. He said it was an obligatory to execute.
:22:17. > :22:22.production is structured around flash points in recent history,
:22:22. > :22:26.beginning in the mid-1980s, including the case of a Bradford
:22:26. > :22:31.headmaster sacked for questioning multiculturalism, the scandal over
:22:31. > :22:36.Danish cartoons over the Prophet Mohammed, the fatwah on Salman
:22:36. > :22:41.Rushdie, and other writers who face death threats. The man who wants to
:22:41. > :22:45.kill me because I'm an apos Tate of Islam, is inspired, inspired to do
:22:45. > :22:48.that from the scripture of Islam. The theme of Can We Talk About This
:22:48. > :22:52.could scarcely be more relevent. But does the production resolve the
:22:52. > :22:56.many questions it poses about religion and freedom of expression,
:22:56. > :23:04.or is this latest work from DV8 holding a one-way conversation.
:23:04. > :23:14.trouble with us in the west is we have become, we succumb it pious
:23:14. > :23:15.
:23:15. > :23:19.paralysis, where we can't even say we are superior to the Taliban.
:23:19. > :23:23.This gives a rather different political perpect yef than --
:23:23. > :23:32.perspective than we are used to seeing at the National, a critque
:23:32. > :23:36.on some aspects of Islam? It is deliberately po lemic and it is
:23:36. > :23:39.hugely important. It is -- polemic, and it is hugely important. The
:23:39. > :23:42.moments when it is absolutely unbelievably essential and
:23:42. > :23:45.brilliant, are the bits where it raises the question, odd for a
:23:45. > :23:50.dance work, of what you can talk about in a society that believes in
:23:50. > :23:54.free speech. And I think it raises really, really important issues
:23:54. > :23:59.that haven't been raised anywhere else, about what we can say about
:23:59. > :24:01.Islam, whether we self-censure, whether people are scared about
:24:01. > :24:06.saying against. And sets that in the context of what happens, but
:24:06. > :24:12.also in the context of dance. That is how it tells its story. Did you
:24:12. > :24:17.find it as bold as important? felt it was like soapbox theatre.
:24:17. > :24:20.Just, lecturing me over and over again. I have to say I had an issue
:24:20. > :24:25.with this whole thing about using voices. I think you need to be very
:24:25. > :24:29.careful. For example, when they used the voice of, you know, the
:24:29. > :24:32.late Ray Honeyford, as we have seen, they only tell part of the story.
:24:32. > :24:37.If you go back and look at his article he wrote in the Salisbury
:24:37. > :24:45.Review, actually, he really attacks West Indian families, West Indian
:24:45. > :24:49.culture, attacks the work of Lynton Johnson. They were self-sensoring
:24:49. > :24:55.what the audience were going to be censoring what the audience were
:24:55. > :25:00.going to hear. I was troubled by using Ray Honeyford as an heroic
:25:00. > :25:05.figure, attacking multiculturalism. I didn't think they did their
:25:05. > :25:08.research. What they were doing was mounting an argument, a piece of
:25:08. > :25:13.polemic? It is interesting you have used that word, Sarah. And polemic
:25:13. > :25:17.is a very powerful word, it comes from the Greek, it means "to do
:25:17. > :25:21.with war", that was my only worry about it. It is an immensely
:25:21. > :25:24.important piece of work. And drama was invent today put this kind of
:25:24. > :25:28.controversial work out on the -- invented to put this kind of
:25:28. > :25:32.controversial work out on the stage. It doesn't work if it is something
:25:32. > :25:35.to fight against rather than deal with. As you say, it was, in a way,
:25:36. > :25:40.it had to have its own agenda, and therefore it had to make its own
:25:40. > :25:47.point. Just as a bit of performance, I think there should have been a
:25:47. > :25:51.bit more tonality on it. I saw London Road that does it so well.
:25:51. > :25:56.It is not a lecture, I think they really needed today think about how
:25:56. > :26:05.were they going to try to get those voices across, in a theatrical way,
:26:05. > :26:07.and dramatic way to the audience. It was Frank Zappa who said writing
:26:07. > :26:12.about music is dancing about architecture. We have that here.
:26:13. > :26:16.There is the polemic, the argument, the multicultural stuff, then there
:26:16. > :26:20.is the dancing. I was working out is the dancing adding anything to
:26:20. > :26:23.the argument, and is the argument adding anything to the dance. I saw
:26:23. > :26:26.some brilliant dancing, some brilliant physical movement, people
:26:26. > :26:31.who were at the peak of their powers. I saw things I had never
:26:31. > :26:36.seen before, people floating across the stage, on a conveyor-belt as if.
:26:36. > :26:40.I saw one walk up a wall. I saw a guy become a chair, a woman who
:26:40. > :26:47.became a chair, there was no chair there and she was some how it
:26:47. > :26:52.something down. None of it was actually added to the argument.
:26:52. > :26:57.thing I earn joyed was the seminal discussion on Newsnight with --
:26:57. > :27:04.enjoyed the seminal discussion on Newsnight with Jeremy Paxman, I
:27:04. > :27:08.thought it was very clever? I think the purpose of the dance is it is
:27:08. > :27:15.not verbatum theatre. It is to create a style and way in which to
:27:15. > :27:19.hold the piece, the bits where they are moving around skittles and the
:27:19. > :27:23.arguments with Jeremy, the bits where people fall to the stage or
:27:23. > :27:27.battle, it gives you an image of what is happening, it stops it
:27:27. > :27:31.being something else. It is quite important, I don't think he's
:27:31. > :27:33.aiming to be like the tricycle productions of things that have
:27:33. > :27:43.been discussions of what has happened, he's doing something
:27:43. > :27:45.
:27:45. > :27:48.quite different. If you go to the programme, it talks about using
:27:48. > :27:51.prominent voices, this is another issue for me, if you want to know
:27:51. > :27:54.about an issue like multiculturalism, you have to think
:27:54. > :27:58.about grass roots voices, that is where it is happening. There
:27:58. > :28:03.weren't grass roots voices, for me, the production was much more about
:28:03. > :28:06.not looking at multiculturalism, but locking at someone's notion of
:28:06. > :28:09.Islam. -- looking at someone's notion of Islam. It would have been
:28:09. > :28:13.a more challenging production if they did something about the great
:28:13. > :28:16.things of Islam. That would have been much more challenging.
:28:16. > :28:20.maybe this is me speaking as a journalist, if it had been, not
:28:20. > :28:24.necessarily more balanced, but when you are switching your viewpoint
:28:24. > :28:29.from one side to the other. So you don't have the sense you are being
:28:29. > :28:32.lectured, would it have made a more sophisticated piece of drama, if
:28:32. > :28:36.your loyalties would have to shift from one side to the other?
:28:36. > :28:41.Absolutely, nothing comes out of nowhere, we are looking at the 30-
:28:41. > :28:44.year period of history, where multiculturalism has been very
:28:44. > :28:48.effective and people have criticised it in this country, we
:28:48. > :28:53.needed a back story. Even if it could make us agree more with what
:28:53. > :28:57.he was saying. You did get a sense of being lectured at, rather than
:28:57. > :29:02.being encouraged into a dialogue. also wondered, I'm familiar with a
:29:02. > :29:05.lot of the arguments about multicultural ifl, so that the
:29:05. > :29:08.theatre regards as controversial, has been in the articles of
:29:08. > :29:14.newspapers for several years. If they had done it, I don't know,
:29:14. > :29:18.five or six years a perhaps it would have been an element of shock.
:29:19. > :29:23.I think there are weaker and stronger passages, the Ray
:29:23. > :29:27.Honeyford stuff I had the most problem with. The point he's making
:29:27. > :29:31.is if you like, the debate is being conducted on the other side, this
:29:32. > :29:36.is his moment. When it is about freedom of speech and when it is at
:29:36. > :29:41.its best, is when it chael eings you on the notions, -- challenges
:29:41. > :29:44.you on the notions that if you want to believe in a society with free
:29:44. > :29:50.speech, you have to defend it as well. It is critical of the banning
:29:50. > :29:56.orders, what it is really an argument for is the right to talk
:29:56. > :30:00.about something. DV8's Theatre Can We Talk About This is at the Lilico
:30:00. > :30:03.theatre until the end of March before moving to the Lowry and the
:30:04. > :30:09.Brighton Dome in May. 100 years next month to the sinking
:30:09. > :30:13.of the Titanic, to mark the centinary, ITV have enlisted
:30:13. > :30:18.Downton Abbey creator, Julain Fellowes, to write a series that
:30:18. > :30:23.attempts a new perspective on the disaster. The story of the world's
:30:23. > :30:31.most famous shipwreck has been told countless time before. Noticably in
:30:31. > :30:38.James Cameron's wildly disasterous epic, grossing a billion dollars.
:30:38. > :30:43.Now in a new IT V mini-series, Julain Fellowes tries to breathe
:30:43. > :30:47.new life into the tale. Titanic follows the final days of the
:30:47. > :30:53.luxury liner's maiden joyage. The experiences of the crew and those
:30:53. > :31:00.who travelled steerage as well as first and second class passengers.
:31:00. > :31:04.She was in one of those suing get marches, you must be at your wits
:31:04. > :31:11.end. We are a political family, you have always been in trade.
:31:11. > :31:16.The series mixes the real with the fictional. The recoginsable Astors
:31:16. > :31:19.and Guggenheims, with those whose stories haven't been told before. A
:31:19. > :31:25.90-strong cast, includes Linus Roache and Geraldine Somerville, as
:31:25. > :31:30.Lord and Lady Manton, and tobyo Jones as Gabriel Batistuta, a
:31:31. > :31:37.second-class passenger with a highly-strung wife. I have to get
:31:37. > :31:42.my jewels first. I'm not giving them up, what have I to show for
:31:42. > :31:49.the last 20 years. Make your way to the second class deck. Our drowning
:31:49. > :31:53.will be second class. There is multiple story arcs spanning the
:31:53. > :31:57.class divide. Each of the four episodes shows the same scenes from
:31:57. > :32:01.the perspectives of different characters and ends as the
:32:01. > :32:07.evacuation of the ship begins. these ladies first class, we are
:32:07. > :32:12.only loading the ladies from first class. Is there ice in your veins.
:32:12. > :32:16.What is the trouble here? They are second class and ought to be on the
:32:16. > :32:21.boat deck. Just help them and be done with it. Julain Fellowes's
:32:21. > :32:26.writing credentials are sure to bring in an audience. Will this
:32:26. > :32:31.familiar tale of disaster, live up to the international success that
:32:31. > :32:37.is Downton Abbey. She can't sink. She can't float. Not for much
:32:38. > :32:41.longer. So, we do know the story of Titanic,
:32:41. > :32:44.Julain Fellowes is trying to do it in a different way. He takes the
:32:44. > :32:49.same events seen through the perspective of different characters
:32:49. > :32:54.in each episode, did it work for you? I'm so sad to say it
:32:54. > :32:58.absolutely failed. That is what every good dramaist, and every got
:32:58. > :33:02.historian should do, realising it is a complex world and whole
:33:02. > :33:05.ecology of people involved in any one single event, and to see it
:33:05. > :33:14.from a number of sides is essential. Isn't that what happens in drama,
:33:14. > :33:18.any way. We have lively minds as a species, and imagine what is going
:33:18. > :33:23.on in other people's minds, and we understand they are reacting to it
:33:23. > :33:27.in a different way. To be given it in a literal form was terrible. You
:33:27. > :33:31.rush from the embarkation to the crash with the iceberg in each
:33:31. > :33:35.episode. You haven't got time to engage or empathise with the
:33:35. > :33:39.characters. I kept waiting for it to hit the iceberg. One of the
:33:39. > :33:44.exrecordry things is you have the most dramatic -- extraordinary
:33:44. > :33:49.things is you have the most dramatic events in recent history,
:33:49. > :33:55.and it is a splash of water and apparently you have to wait until
:33:55. > :34:00.episode four to get the real thing. It is a bold structure but makes it
:34:00. > :34:07.relentlessly undramatic, as soon as it gains a bit of steam, you know,
:34:07. > :34:11.then you hit an iceberg. Any second now we will be talking about
:34:11. > :34:16.Upstairs Drownstairs. I hated episode 1, I thought it was bity
:34:16. > :34:23.and stilted. This is the one that focuses on the aChristo cratic.
:34:23. > :34:28.half an hour -- AChristo cratic. And half an hour in, it was like
:34:28. > :34:31.the iceberg, I watched them back- to-back, I saw all the things in
:34:31. > :34:37.episode one, the tiny glances, were suddenly with the other people, it
:34:37. > :34:40.is much more interesting. When the episodes are a week apart, as they
:34:40. > :34:46.will be, an audience will struggle to remember the tiny glances they
:34:46. > :34:50.saw the week before and bring it into context will be a struggle.
:34:50. > :34:56.The steerage class, did it come alive for you? It did. Everyone
:34:56. > :35:03.knows the story and you have to think whose Titanic story are you
:35:03. > :35:08.telling. The first episode is the Lord and lady-la-di-da's story, I
:35:08. > :35:12.which Linus Roache is great, but he's so stiff. There is not enough
:35:12. > :35:15.meat for people. In the second episode, the narrative shifts back,
:35:15. > :35:19.but to themes, that you wouldn't hear in the first one. For example,
:35:19. > :35:22.you have people talking about the issues to do with England and
:35:22. > :35:29.Ireland, and there is a fantastic scene with the electrician, Irish
:35:29. > :35:33.electrician and one of the ship builders, talking about can I bring.
:35:33. > :35:37.Can Catholics be employed? There is another scene with an Italian and
:35:37. > :35:41.Irish migrant, talking about going to America, talking about issues of
:35:41. > :35:45.why they have picked up and gone to America. All the issues to do with
:35:45. > :35:48.migration. It is a much more interesting piece. What did you
:35:48. > :35:52.make of the historical perspective? He was trying to, and Julain
:35:52. > :35:55.Fellowes has said he was trying to write back into the story the
:35:56. > :35:59.second class, there is an extraordinary statistic that 92% of
:35:59. > :36:02.the men in second class drowned. That is because they are trying to
:36:02. > :36:07.be even more gallant than those in first class, they put all their
:36:07. > :36:12.women and children on first. As you said, the toffs gave up and jumped
:36:12. > :36:15.in, in steerage they were so desperate they pulled themselves
:36:15. > :36:18.off the boat. It was interesting to see them inhabiting the central
:36:18. > :36:21.role. It is interesting, if that was Julain Fellowes going to do,
:36:21. > :36:26.why not make the first episode about the second class passengers,
:36:27. > :36:30.why not feel the need to have the toffs at the top again. He didn't
:36:30. > :36:35.have the James Cameron, goodness knows, how big the budget was, but
:36:35. > :36:39.it is a lot of money, for British television, did we see it on
:36:39. > :36:46.screen? Not exactly. The special effects, the CGI you will think, is
:36:46. > :36:49.that a ship, it don't look like one, and it doesn't look like an iceberg
:36:49. > :36:53.either, which might explain why it is not so short a period of time.
:36:53. > :37:00.The costumes are great, it is Julain Fellowes, of course they are
:37:00. > :37:04.wonderful. The acting is clunky and the dialogue is. Lord such and such,
:37:04. > :37:07.and lady, you will have met, he collects books. A 90-strong cast,
:37:08. > :37:12.it is difficult to focus on any individual? Very difficult.
:37:12. > :37:15.Historically the thing he does, this retrospective knowledge, the
:37:15. > :37:21.second someone appears saying we have half the number of lifeboats
:37:21. > :37:28.and you go "aha", there is a lot of dramatic irony, man cannot bring
:37:28. > :37:35.down the ship and so on. I think the cast are a bit at sea! We still
:37:35. > :37:38.do love our period-based class dramas, don't we. Upstairs
:37:38. > :37:43.Downstairs. The only point is the plot has got lost in the hair-dos
:37:43. > :37:48.and hats. We do love it. What is a shame he also missed out the fact
:37:48. > :37:53.with the toffs they sit there eating the scones, but on the
:37:53. > :37:58.Titanic there was a sauna and swimming pool, which had to feel
:37:58. > :38:03.how secsive it was. Maybe -- Excessive it was. Maybe not on
:38:03. > :38:08.their budget. If you want the hats and hair-dos
:38:08. > :38:15.of Titanic, it is on ITV1 from the 25th. If you need any kind of
:38:16. > :38:17.respite from the athletic extravagance za of the Olympics, as
:38:17. > :38:25.ever the Edinburgh International Festival promises a cornucopia of
:38:25. > :38:30.culture. It was launched this week. We asked Jonathan Mills to look
:38:30. > :38:38.ahead. There is not a theme to the 2012 International Festival, as
:38:38. > :38:42.people might have recognised in the past few years. We have tried to
:38:42. > :38:46.suggest this year is to try to suggest that there is plenty to
:38:46. > :38:51.celebrate the length and breath of the UK. One of the corner zones of
:38:51. > :38:55.the 2012 festival is the world Shakespeare festival. It is a
:38:55. > :38:59.collaboration between the Cultural Olympiad, the Royal Shakespeare
:38:59. > :39:02.Company and a number of other producing partner, of which we are
:39:02. > :39:07.very proud of the Edinburgh International Festival to be one of
:39:07. > :39:14.them. The most large scale enterprise in celebration of
:39:14. > :39:19.Shakespeare, would have to be 2008 Macbeth. It is an unflifpling
:39:19. > :39:26.depiction of a very efficient killing machine a very big
:39:26. > :39:32.rendition of the Scottish tragedy. An environmental art performance
:39:32. > :39:35.company, we have invited them to collaberate on a large scale a mass
:39:36. > :39:40.animation project, involving all ordinary members of the community,
:39:40. > :39:45.for the whole duration of the International Festival. We will be
:39:46. > :39:51.inviting people to come and animate one of our best loved landmarks,
:39:51. > :39:58.Arthur's Seat, whether you walk around with a light suit or light
:39:58. > :40:03.cyberor light staff, you will be -- light sabre or light staff, you
:40:03. > :40:08.will be animating in a certain way. Asking an artistic director which
:40:08. > :40:13.is his or her favourite show is very unfair. What really gets my
:40:13. > :40:20.juices going is this wonderful juxtaposition of so many different
:40:20. > :40:26.things, dance from Brazil, Israel, North America, India and Australia.
:40:26. > :40:36.Theatre from all corners of the world. From chilli, and from --
:40:36. > :40:37.
:40:37. > :40:39.Chile, and from Germany. A fantastic diversity of cultures.
:40:39. > :40:44.The Edinburgh International Festival runs three months from the
:40:44. > :40:47.9th of August. We will bring the highlights. Thanks to all my guests
:40:47. > :40:51.tonight, Ian Rankin, Sarah Crompton, Bettany Hughes and Dreda Say
:40:51. > :40:56.Mitchell. Can you find out more about everything on tonight's show
:40:56. > :41:02.on the website. And we are braced and ready for all your tweets. I'm
:41:02. > :41:07.going to be back with a Book Review Special this time next week,
:41:07. > :41:14.discussing Andrew Motion's sequel to Treasure Island, and looking at
:41:14. > :41:24.poetry with Peter Carey and Ben Okri and the latest comic novel. To
:41:24. > :41:24.
:41:24. > :41:34.play us out, a new young hat, Mikill Pane hails from Dreda's
:41:34. > :41:39.
:41:39. > :41:42.manor, East London. He's playing us out with I Can Feel It.
:41:42. > :41:47.# Now this ain't funny but some of you might laugh
:41:47. > :41:49.# Just a couple stories about the right path
:41:49. > :41:53.# One day I was wondering around my park
:41:53. > :41:57.# This kid looked down so I asked # What's wrong little man
:41:57. > :42:01.# I see tears in your eyes # And your usually happy
:42:01. > :42:06.# So I'm surprise # He said since the first day of
:42:06. > :42:10.the summer holidays # I'm been knocking for my mate
:42:10. > :42:14.# But he don't wanna may # He says he hopes I go to jail
:42:14. > :42:19.# For stealing hard cash from the # I said life goes on son
:42:19. > :42:23.# Awe get older your mind will grow stronger
:42:23. > :42:26.# Many will not rot in prison # They simply got jobs as British
:42:26. > :42:32.politicians # I want to be
:42:32. > :42:39.# I can feel it # I can't be what I want to be
:42:39. > :42:43.# I can feel it # Now this ain't funny
:42:43. > :42:45.# But some of you might laugh Mark here's another story about the
:42:45. > :42:49.right path # It was getting dark
:42:49. > :42:52.# This little girl looked upset # I asked would you be brave and
:42:52. > :42:56.tell me what's wrong # I would like to bury your stress
:42:56. > :43:00.with lauflter # If your face gets any longer
:43:00. > :43:05.# You will look like Sarah Jessica Parker
:43:05. > :43:13.# I find the reason I'm disliked # All my friends have run from me
:43:13. > :43:16.# I only eat once a week # Then I realised this skinny girl
:43:16. > :43:20.# Could compete for the third world # She said she didn't want to be
:43:20. > :43:25.like them # I said don't let your eyes water
:43:25. > :43:31.# It is only a eat be disorder # The other girls will start to
:43:31. > :43:36.withdrawal # When you become a catwalk model
:43:36. > :43:43.# I can't bee what I want to be # I can feel it
:43:43. > :43:49.# I can be what I want to be # No train can stop