0:07:03 > 0:07:10.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17On The Review Show tonight, conniving queens,
0:07:17 > 0:07:21the allusion of fiction and elusive truths, Philip Glass sets
0:07:21 > 0:07:25an American icon to music, challenging art,
0:07:25 > 0:07:27and searching for Paradise.
0:07:27 > 0:07:28All that,
0:07:28 > 0:07:32and we've got music from Tim Burgess of The Charlatans in the studio.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36Welcome to The Review Show.
0:07:36 > 0:07:40Tonight my cultural jury is the crime writer Denise Mina, novelist
0:07:40 > 0:07:43and broadcaster Marcel Theroux and journalist Sarfraz Manzoor.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46Coming up, we'll be looking at new novels from Neil Gaiman
0:07:46 > 0:07:48and James Robertson,
0:07:48 > 0:07:52imagination and endeavour in two big summer exhibitions, Austrian
0:07:52 > 0:07:56director Ulrich Seidl's Paradise trilogy and Walt Disney: The Opera.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59But first, it seems you can't swing a sword these days without
0:07:59 > 0:08:02hitting another medieval drama series.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04With the success of big budget titles
0:08:04 > 0:08:07such as The Tudors, The Borgias and HBO's Game Of Thrones,
0:08:07 > 0:08:10bodices, battles and beheadings are big business.
0:08:10 > 0:08:14Well, now the BBC has joined the fight with home-grown ten-part
0:08:14 > 0:08:16summer blockbuster The White Queen.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18Based on Philippa Gregory's best-selling
0:08:18 > 0:08:22series of historical novels, The Cousins' War, it reinterprets
0:08:22 > 0:08:25the Wars of the Roses from the elusive female perspective.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28Welcome to Planet Plantagenet.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35The White Queen refers to Elizabeth Woodville,
0:08:35 > 0:08:40one of three women at the centre of a clandestine medieval matriarchy.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44Her translucent beauty is one of a host of weapons in her armoury,
0:08:44 > 0:08:50and it is not long before she captures the attention of a young King Edward IV.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52Your Grace, I cannot be your mistress.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57I may die in battle and this could be my last request.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59You would deny your king that?
0:08:59 > 0:09:01You will not die.
0:09:02 > 0:09:07You are quick and brave and lucky.
0:09:07 > 0:09:12This new drama imagines the battle lines drawn not by the men,
0:09:12 > 0:09:14but by the women at the heart of the royal court.
0:09:14 > 0:09:19Even now when I'm reading modern histories about the medieval period,
0:09:19 > 0:09:22I find I have to read through them to find these women
0:09:22 > 0:09:25and to find out what they're doing and what they're thinking,
0:09:25 > 0:09:28and in a sense, to read through that prejudice
0:09:28 > 0:09:30which even today we've inherited.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32This was the Middle Ages,
0:09:32 > 0:09:35when might and majesty were just a rebellion away.
0:09:35 > 0:09:39Family was fickle, and marriage merely a means to an end.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42We should find a purse of gold from the treasure room for His Grace.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45A purse of gold to wage war against King Henry?
0:09:45 > 0:09:49Woman, have you lost your wits?! Are we Yorkists now?
0:09:50 > 0:09:53Yes. If he wins.
0:09:53 > 0:09:57And he is likely to, for then he will control all our fortunes.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00And all the marriages.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03And there are many girls in the family, Richard.
0:10:06 > 0:10:11Sometimes, woman, you even scare me.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14They live in a world where women have no formal political
0:10:14 > 0:10:16opportunity at all.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19A woman cannot fight her own corner in any
0:10:19 > 0:10:25way except by manipulation, by sexual allure, by politicking,
0:10:25 > 0:10:27by rebelling in secrecy,
0:10:27 > 0:10:31and also by using witchcraft that these women have to deploy
0:10:31 > 0:10:35and secret art they can land their hands on in order to
0:10:35 > 0:10:38get their own way, because their is no open way to
0:10:38 > 0:10:43power for a woman - indeed, not just then but for a long time after.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51Sarfraz, do you think it's a credible perspective in history?
0:10:51 > 0:10:54I mean, there's so little documented about it.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56It's hard to say, but in a way it doesn't really matter.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00I think, in terms of the woman who wrote... Emma Frost, I think,
0:11:00 > 0:11:05she said, "Well, we're using history but this is actually drama,"
0:11:05 > 0:11:07so I don't think it necessarily matters.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10I thought this was royal history rewritten as rom-com,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13in the sense that, essentially, it's about a man who's kind of out
0:11:13 > 0:11:15there, he finds someone he wants to love,
0:11:15 > 0:11:18they've got to be coming from different camps,
0:11:18 > 0:11:21and the fact that it has got these female leads does make it more
0:11:21 > 0:11:24interesting, but also, the fact that most of these women who are
0:11:24 > 0:11:27watching drama and reading fiction, it makes sense as well.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29As you're saying, you're watching it,
0:11:29 > 0:11:33it's very obvious that the primary thing is drama, it's a drama,
0:11:33 > 0:11:36and it's kind of like The Tudors but much more accessible.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40The dialogue is very contemporary. You know...
0:11:40 > 0:11:42- "I'm mad for you."- "I'm mad for you."
0:11:42 > 0:11:45So jarring when he says to her, "I'm mad for you."
0:11:45 > 0:11:49You know, the analysis of female power,
0:11:49 > 0:11:51it didn't really feel particularly like a feminist
0:11:51 > 0:11:54re-writing of history because it was really about them being pretty
0:11:54 > 0:11:57and getting married. It wasn't about who they controlled.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00It was about how they exercise power, isn't it?
0:12:00 > 0:12:05Also, the idea that Jacquetta, who is Elizabeth's mother,
0:12:05 > 0:12:08is also practicing witchcraft.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11Right. We know that women did exercise power in some way.
0:12:11 > 0:12:16You know, in the medieval period of Aquitaine, Henry II's wife made
0:12:16 > 0:12:18a lot of trouble for him.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21And I was longing to see how these women were going to
0:12:21 > 0:12:23exercise power. How is it?
0:12:23 > 0:12:26You don't have your hand on the gear stick as a woman
0:12:26 > 0:12:29in medieval England, so what are they going to do?
0:12:29 > 0:12:32Well, judging by this, you kind of, you look pretty
0:12:32 > 0:12:35and you hope the king takes a shine to you. I didn't see that.
0:12:35 > 0:12:39Lady Macbeth is a more interesting feminist icon
0:12:39 > 0:12:40than the women we met.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43It's because we don't know.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45The character Margaret Beaufort is kept apart from her son.
0:12:45 > 0:12:51She believes Henry VII, as it happens, is going to be king,
0:12:51 > 0:12:53and I thought her character was really strongly
0:12:53 > 0:12:57portrayed as a really intellectual, slightly unhinged, driven woman.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00I thought Edward's mother was a really interesting character as well.
0:13:00 > 0:13:04And in a way, I think, you know, for a dramatist, for a writer,
0:13:04 > 0:13:07it's actually quite nice that this is stuff that there isn't that
0:13:07 > 0:13:10much documentation of, cos it allows you to fill the gaps.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13The danger is just whether you believe any of it's true or not.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15It just wasn't medieval enough for me.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17I wanted something which had more of the stink
0:13:17 > 0:13:20and the regionalism of the Wars of the Roses.
0:13:20 > 0:13:22I mean, OK, we don't know much about them.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25We know quite a lot about some of it. There's a past in letters.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28There's that book She-Wolves by Helen Castor, which is
0:13:28 > 0:13:33about the women powerbrokers before Elizabeth.
0:13:33 > 0:13:34So we know something about them.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37We know they didn't sleep on beds exactly like that.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39We knew they don't have hair crimpers
0:13:39 > 0:13:41and we knew their personal hygiene wasn't exactly like what
0:13:41 > 0:13:43we saw in that thing,
0:13:43 > 0:13:46and I think they succumb to a tendency to Mills and Boon-ify it.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49Don't you think this is just at the service of drama, though?
0:13:49 > 0:13:51They're not trying to be literalists in that sense.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53If you think about the television of The Other Boleyn Girl,
0:13:53 > 0:13:56which was done with an absolutely tiny budget.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58I think they had, like, three walls and a bed,
0:13:58 > 0:14:00and it blew this out of the water.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02It was absolutely amazing in dramatical terms,
0:14:02 > 0:14:05in terms of the integrity, in terms of the sense that you
0:14:05 > 0:14:08had of the power play between all the different characters.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11And this is very superficial.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13But do you think it's because it's just started
0:14:13 > 0:14:15and the idea is that almost... Not exposition,
0:14:15 > 0:14:17but the first two episodes are setting up these
0:14:17 > 0:14:19series of women who then actually,
0:14:19 > 0:14:23- particularly Henry VII's mother, will come into play much more?- No.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26I think it's kind of Tudors-lite, and it's War of the Roses,
0:14:26 > 0:14:29- which is quite baffling. It's going to be massive.- Do you think so?
0:14:29 > 0:14:32I thought it was slow. It thought it built slowly,
0:14:32 > 0:14:34and I think we're now used to multi-part dramas which have a
0:14:34 > 0:14:37number of plot strands set up in the early episodes,
0:14:37 > 0:14:40and this really only had one going on in the first episode.
0:14:40 > 0:14:42I agree, Margaret Beaufort, right,
0:14:42 > 0:14:45she's the future mum of the future Henry VII.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47Really interesting character, really promising.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51She was unusual, she had a strange fanaticism,
0:14:51 > 0:14:54and I kind of wanted more of that. You know, these were strange times.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56There were religious wars going on.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59These people were like warlords, they were like gangsters,
0:14:59 > 0:15:02- they weren't like...- But I think you get a bit of that from Janet McTeer.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05She absolutely dominates cos she is so brilliant.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08When she is in a scene, she kind of takes it over.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10We talked a bit about the magic,
0:15:10 > 0:15:13I think the magic thing could possibly be something which is going
0:15:13 > 0:15:16to grow as well, and I thought that was an added element
0:15:16 > 0:15:17and it struck me as, you know,
0:15:17 > 0:15:19you were saying I was sounding like an accountant,
0:15:19 > 0:15:22maybe I'm going to sound a bit like a commissioning editor here,
0:15:22 > 0:15:24but there is a sense that if you can get a bit of sci-fi
0:15:24 > 0:15:26in addition to the royal light...
0:15:26 > 0:15:28But what about this whole Downton effect?
0:15:28 > 0:15:33This is the next kind of Downton and, actually, it doesn't matter
0:15:33 > 0:15:36too much, as you say, what the literal niche of the story is.
0:15:36 > 0:15:38It's getting the personal drama.
0:15:38 > 0:15:42Being shallow, all these actors are very appealing to look at,
0:15:42 > 0:15:44they have a story that's quite interesting in there.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48This is also territory that most people are not as familiar with
0:15:48 > 0:15:49as they are with the Tudors,
0:15:49 > 0:15:51and I think the BBC are on to a good thing with this.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53Give me Horrible Histories.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55I found it quite hard to work out who they were,
0:15:55 > 0:15:58because they're all so good-looking and they've all got the same hairdo,
0:15:58 > 0:16:00and they all just blur into one.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04In fact, one person actually comments on how alike all the women are.
0:16:04 > 0:16:07The men are sort of identi-kit looking in the same way, I think.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10I wanted more. They've only had a bath once a year!
0:16:10 > 0:16:12The jackets they're all wearing,
0:16:12 > 0:16:14talking about the contemporary language,
0:16:14 > 0:16:17even the fashion is contemporary with those quilted jackets that the men
0:16:17 > 0:16:20- are wearing. It's something you could see out on the streets.- Puffers.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22Puffers, puffer jackets in The White Queen.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Well, The White Queen begins tonight on BBC One right after this show.
0:16:25 > 0:16:30This month, two new books also take real life events as a starting
0:16:30 > 0:16:32point to explore very different worlds.
0:16:35 > 0:16:40One the 21st of December, 1988, an aeroplane exploded over
0:16:40 > 0:16:43the Scottish town of Lockerbie, killing 270 people.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50James Robertson's latest book, The Professor Of Truth,
0:16:50 > 0:16:53is the tale of Dr Alan Tealing, who loses his wife and daughter
0:16:53 > 0:16:56when their aeroplane is brought down in a suspected terrorist
0:16:56 > 0:16:59attack, also killing 270 people.
0:17:03 > 0:17:06The story bears many similarities to that of Lockerbie,
0:17:06 > 0:17:10but The Professor Of Truth is very much a work of fiction.
0:17:10 > 0:17:15Fiction, I think can sometimes get at the truth in a way that
0:17:15 > 0:17:19the hard facts of journalism sometimes can't.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23With a novel you can boil some of that detail down to
0:17:23 > 0:17:26some of the more abstract essentials. You know, what is truth?
0:17:26 > 0:17:27What is justice?
0:17:27 > 0:17:31What happens to somebody who suffers that kind of loss,
0:17:31 > 0:17:35and then has to got through this long, emotional, psychological,
0:17:35 > 0:17:41philosophical journey in order to try to find some kind of answer at the end of it?
0:17:41 > 0:17:46"'Tell me, were you even alive before the bomb went off?' He said.
0:17:46 > 0:17:51"'I mean, really alive?' The anger surged again inside me.
0:17:51 > 0:17:55"'Yes, I was,' I said. 'You can keep death and pain.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57"'I was alive every day and I knew it.
0:17:57 > 0:18:02"'I was in love with my wife and I adored my beautiful daughter.'"
0:18:05 > 0:18:09Neil Gaiman has reached super stardom as a writer of graphic novels,
0:18:09 > 0:18:15children's books, adult fiction and, more recently, TV and film.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18The Ocean At The End Of The Lane is his first adult book in
0:18:18 > 0:18:22eight years, although it's told from the perspective of a young boy.
0:18:22 > 0:18:26The fantasy began when I was about eight or nine years old.
0:18:26 > 0:18:31And it was when I learned that the lane that I lived on, there was a
0:18:31 > 0:18:35farm at the end of the lane that had been mentioned in the Domesday Book.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38And I remember thinking at the time, "Wouldn't it be interesting
0:18:38 > 0:18:43"if the same people had lived there for a thousand years?"
0:18:43 > 0:18:46Gaiman's book blurs his real childhood memories of landscapes
0:18:46 > 0:18:50and events with his unique style of other world fantasy.
0:18:50 > 0:18:54His young protagonist's battle with dark magic is fought under
0:18:54 > 0:18:56the aegis of three protective women,
0:18:56 > 0:18:59one of whom is his centuries old 11-year-old neighbour,
0:18:59 > 0:19:01Lettie Hempstock.
0:19:01 > 0:19:06"Something shifted and the ragged thing looked down at us.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10"Lettie Hempstock said, 'Name yourself.'
0:19:10 > 0:19:12"There was a pause.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15"Empty eyes stared down.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18"Then a voice as featureless as the wind said,
0:19:18 > 0:19:23"'I am the lady of this place. I have been here for such a long time.
0:19:23 > 0:19:27"'Since before the little people sacrificed each other on the rocks.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30"'My name is my own, child, not yours.'"
0:19:32 > 0:19:36Denise, as Neil Gaiman said, it's his first adult book in eight years,
0:19:36 > 0:19:37does it read like an adult book?
0:19:37 > 0:19:40It does actually read like an adult book
0:19:40 > 0:19:43and I think one of the things I love about him
0:19:43 > 0:19:49and I think it's a very strong book from him, is that he writes...
0:19:49 > 0:19:54His fantasy is almost like a metaphor you can't quite grasp
0:19:54 > 0:19:57hold of. You can't quite see what he's drawing towards.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01It doesn't feel like abstract fantasy, it's not strange
0:20:01 > 0:20:04and otherworldly for no reason.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07It feels like a sort of dreamed metaphor, you know?
0:20:07 > 0:20:08Which I think is really enchanting.
0:20:08 > 0:20:12And he has this sort of Edwardian construction of childhood,
0:20:12 > 0:20:16which, you know, is really quite beautiful.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19Sarfaz, he said that what he wanted to do was write as an adult
0:20:19 > 0:20:22remembering what childhood really was.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25And he gives this great example where he says, actually,
0:20:25 > 0:20:27it's about adults move to places in straight lines.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31Children meander, wait behind bushes and find their own way.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33And that he is bringing that sensibility to the book.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35Yeah. I mean, I think, to be honest, the bits
0:20:35 > 0:20:38I liked most were the bits which felt like they were written for adults,
0:20:38 > 0:20:41which were his meditations and reflections on what's
0:20:41 > 0:20:43different about childhood as opposed to adulthood.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46And there's a lovely bit where I think Lettie says something like,
0:20:46 > 0:20:49grown-ups aren't really grown-ups on the inside.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51Actually they're all children and they're just pretending
0:20:51 > 0:20:54and I thought that really felt, that felt very true.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56But to be honest, I didn't find the fantasy stuff,
0:20:56 > 0:20:58whether it's a metaphor or not, that appealing.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01And I think it's only an adult book for people who have grown up
0:21:01 > 0:21:04loving sci-fi or fantasy or those kind of things.
0:21:04 > 0:21:05It doesn't really speak to me.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08And I know he's got 1.8 million followers on Twitter
0:21:08 > 0:21:11- or everything, but...- You're so jealous.- I would love that.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13But I just think that actually, it's only a book
0:21:13 > 0:21:16if you grew up loving that kind of writing for adults.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19But what about the way that he creates this wonderful
0:21:19 > 0:21:22family of women? Now they're strong women, the Hempstock women.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25Lettie, Mrs Hempstock and old Mrs Hempstock. All witches.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27Yes, they're all witches.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31For me, the pleasures of the book are the pleasures of magic,
0:21:31 > 0:21:36of goodies and badies and a kind of simplistic moral universe.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39And those are the pleasures of children's fiction to me.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43What it doesn't have is rounded characters,
0:21:43 > 0:21:46kind of strong writing, a really interesting character
0:21:46 > 0:21:48and a kind of moral sophistication. So, to me,
0:21:48 > 0:21:51I'm kind of puzzled that the book is billed as an adult novel.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54I know the framing action, the beginning and the end,
0:21:54 > 0:21:57is kind of where he makes the argument this is an adult novel.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59But for me the pleasure of the central section,
0:21:59 > 0:22:02the pleasures I got, they remind me of Susan Cooper,
0:22:02 > 0:22:06The Dark Is Rising or Wrinkle In Time, or Roald Dahl books.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09Well, to me it was Lolly Willowes, the Sylvia Townsend Warner book,
0:22:09 > 0:22:12because it just came alive in exactly the same way.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15You had this incredibly sympathetic portrayal of, these are white witches of course.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18But they were, you know, that isn't, that's not myth.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21He makes a picture in the book that it's a myth. To me that's fairy tale.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24Fairy tale is where there is an evil witch and there's a good witch.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27In a myth there's a witch and they're ambiguous
0:22:27 > 0:22:30and the struggle is what, are they good?
0:22:30 > 0:22:33But this is not a book where there's that kind of ambiguity.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Isn't it adult in the sense that this is actually a child who's
0:22:36 > 0:22:39trying to process things that were going on which were real,
0:22:39 > 0:22:41but using the kind of imaginative world.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44Or did they even exist, or were they his imagination?
0:22:44 > 0:22:49Because really it centres around a suicide and his dad having an affair with the au pair,
0:22:49 > 0:22:50and this kid trying to make sense of it,
0:22:50 > 0:22:53and trying to understand from that perspective.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56But that's your interpretation of it. That's an interpretation.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59That's like me saying that Jack The Giant Killer is about
0:22:59 > 0:23:02some oedipal fantasy, but that's not on the page.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05But what about, I mean, you talk about the language,
0:23:05 > 0:23:09the way that he creates this perfectly, it seems, sensible idea
0:23:09 > 0:23:11that there's a hole in the boy's foot,
0:23:11 > 0:23:12which then comes in to the heart.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15That's a very difficult trick to pull off.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17I mean, he's so accomplished
0:23:17 > 0:23:20but if you don't get fantasy and it doesn't speak to you
0:23:20 > 0:23:23and you can't go there, it's not going to make any sense to you,
0:23:23 > 0:23:25but if you love that kind of thing, then...
0:23:25 > 0:23:27You have to be in the club beforehand.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29Well, is it a club? I don't know.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32I just think you have to kind of open a door in your mind...
0:23:32 > 0:23:36I do think his evocation of being a boy who sought solace
0:23:36 > 0:23:40in words and in books and sort of the interior world, I think
0:23:40 > 0:23:42that was really beautifully done,
0:23:42 > 0:23:44and that must have been quite autobiographical,
0:23:44 > 0:23:47but that felt quite true, didn't it? That the world outside
0:23:47 > 0:23:49is really kind of complicated, I'm going to go back in.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53Also, I don't find that Edwardian, slightly saccharine,
0:23:53 > 0:23:56- childhoody stuff all that appealing. - Secret Garden.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59Yeah, I don't really find that terribly appealing,
0:23:59 > 0:24:00but I do love the idea of a child
0:24:00 > 0:24:03faced with quite traumatic events in the adult world,
0:24:03 > 0:24:05trying to make sense of it with the wrong information
0:24:05 > 0:24:08- and coming up with these... - Because that happens all the time
0:24:08 > 0:24:11in reality and fantasy, the wrong information, the wrong order.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13But in the book, the problem is that
0:24:13 > 0:24:17some evil force has broken in and they are a bit like a canvas sheet
0:24:17 > 0:24:21and then with the help of these good witches, he has to solve the evil.
0:24:21 > 0:24:22There's no sense in which
0:24:22 > 0:24:25this is really about someone who is having trouble processing grief
0:24:25 > 0:24:28or their dad having the affair with the au pair.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31You have some anxiety, some ambivalence about his father.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34I mean, to me, that territory for adult fiction would be,
0:24:34 > 0:24:38"I have ambivalent feelings about my dad, is he a goodie or a baddie?"
0:24:38 > 0:24:39I think if you buy into it,
0:24:39 > 0:24:42I can totally see why it would be an absolutely delicious read.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45I just feel like if you're not part of that, it can leave you cold.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48If you're not 14, it's not a delicious read, I think.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50Interesting, the next book we're going to talk about,
0:24:50 > 0:24:52The Professor Of Truth.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54James Robertson also writes children's fiction
0:24:54 > 0:24:59and his starting point is the dreadful events of December 1988.
0:24:59 > 0:25:03Can you turn fiction into a different kind of truth
0:25:03 > 0:25:06- than the one that exists? - That's what he's trying to do.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08I'm a bit mystified by this, because in his interviews,
0:25:08 > 0:25:11he basically says the argument that if you write something fictional,
0:25:11 > 0:25:14you can reach a different truth than journalism can, etc.
0:25:14 > 0:25:16But I think that's slightly demeaning journalism,
0:25:16 > 0:25:19because in the book, he doesn't mention Lockerbie
0:25:19 > 0:25:22and he doesn't mention Libya, he doesn't mention Megrahi,
0:25:22 > 0:25:25- but the inference is there that that's what it is.- Yeah.
0:25:25 > 0:25:29But in the details, when he's talking about the loss of somebody
0:25:29 > 0:25:32through a plane crash or about any of those things,
0:25:32 > 0:25:35those are all things you could glean from very good non-fiction,
0:25:35 > 0:25:38and also, when he talks about how in the book, what he wants to do
0:25:38 > 0:25:41as part of the book is to reopen the case and look at it again,
0:25:41 > 0:25:44it feels like he's kind of having his cake and eating it
0:25:44 > 0:25:47as he's basically saying, "This is not anything to do with Lockerbie,
0:25:47 > 0:25:50"but by the way, I'd like you to start looking at Lockerbie again."
0:25:50 > 0:25:53And interestingly, he followed Lockerbie, as all of us here did,
0:25:53 > 0:25:55very, very carefully.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59Dr Jim Swire was, of course, the main campaigner who believes,
0:25:59 > 0:26:01particularly after the trial, that Megrahi was innocent.
0:26:01 > 0:26:06There was a great conversation between Robertson and Jim Swire
0:26:06 > 0:26:09at Hay because James Robertson purposely never met Jim Swire
0:26:09 > 0:26:12before he wrote the book, and the character of Alan Tealing,
0:26:12 > 0:26:16Jim Swire says, gets as close as you will ever get
0:26:16 > 0:26:19to writing fictionally about the emotions he felt.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21I think the emotional hook is very interesting,
0:26:21 > 0:26:25but I'm really fascinated by that tension between writing
0:26:25 > 0:26:29about true events in a narrative way. I think it's fascinating
0:26:29 > 0:26:33that the central character is a professor of English Literature
0:26:33 > 0:26:36and the whole book for me is about narrative
0:26:36 > 0:26:40and the power of narrative to alter and to rewrite,
0:26:40 > 0:26:43and that history is a narrative, it is a constructed narrative.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45And he posits that, basically,
0:26:45 > 0:26:50the CIA and indeed the investigators here were creating a narrative that
0:26:50 > 0:26:54- they needed to have.- Yeah.- Which essentially wasn't the right one.
0:26:54 > 0:26:59To me, I wanted to see someone, I want to see that in non-fiction.
0:26:59 > 0:27:01If someone has new evidence about Lockerbie,
0:27:01 > 0:27:03I don't think a novel is the right place to address it.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06What's interesting also is, in terms of imaginative leaps
0:27:06 > 0:27:08and the idea of what fiction can do,
0:27:08 > 0:27:10I was thinking about Martin Amis' The Second Plane,
0:27:10 > 0:27:12the collection of writings about 9/11.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15In one of them, I think he writes from the position of one
0:27:15 > 0:27:16of the suicide bombers
0:27:16 > 0:27:19and it struck me that if Robertson had written
0:27:19 > 0:27:22a book from the position of a fictionalised Megrahi,
0:27:22 > 0:27:24that could perhaps take you to a place where
0:27:24 > 0:27:26non-fiction hasn't so far done.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29But to take a position from someone like Jim Swire,
0:27:29 > 0:27:30who is around and well-known,
0:27:30 > 0:27:33didn't feel that much of a jump.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35I thought it was a brilliant way to bring it up again,
0:27:35 > 0:27:37talk about it and unpack it.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40Lots of people don't want to talk about it, which is very interesting.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43- A lot of Americans don't want to talk about it.- Which you can fully understand.
0:27:43 > 0:27:45People find the story that they need
0:27:45 > 0:27:47but what I really loved about this book,
0:27:47 > 0:27:49and the fact it was a fiction book,
0:27:49 > 0:27:50was it looked at the purpose of law.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53Justice is different from truth.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56Justice is different and the law is not about achieving justice,
0:27:56 > 0:27:58it's about resolving disputes
0:27:58 > 0:28:00between two sides.
0:28:00 > 0:28:01I really liked all that.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04You're a crime writer. That wasn't news to you.
0:28:04 > 0:28:08No, I knew that anyway, but it's nice to see it affirmed by somebody else.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11I think the fact it takes you on an emotional journey in a way
0:28:11 > 0:28:14that non-fiction will not and people who read non-fiction
0:28:14 > 0:28:20are different than people who read fiction, so because it's fiction and is from a first-person account...
0:28:20 > 0:28:25If it's oblique, do you think that what James Robertson is saying is,
0:28:25 > 0:28:31"I want fiction to be a campaigning tool to reopen Lockerbie."
0:28:31 > 0:28:34I think this is a strange tension. Everybody bases
0:28:34 > 0:28:38fiction on true events but people are very
0:28:38 > 0:28:40churlish about admitting it if there's a ghost of being sued.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43I don't really understand what it's about.
0:28:43 > 0:28:45I think if it has anything made up, it's fiction.
0:28:45 > 0:28:49One drop of made-up stuff makes it fiction.
0:28:49 > 0:28:51There might be people who read this that might not
0:28:51 > 0:28:55read a non-fiction book about Lockerbie and that might ignite them to want to know more.
0:28:55 > 0:28:57It will certainly send them to Wikipedia to say,
0:28:57 > 0:29:01"What's he driving at?" It certainly sparked an interest in me
0:29:01 > 0:29:04in reading more about what actually happened.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06Neil Gaiman's novel is released this week
0:29:06 > 0:29:10and James Robertson's The Professor Of Truth is available now.
0:29:10 > 0:29:14Sadly, another of Scotland's finest writers, Iain Banks, died last weekend.
0:29:14 > 0:29:17Humorous, thoughtful and witty to the last, you can see his final
0:29:17 > 0:29:22interview in a Review Show special on BBC Two on Tuesday at ten o'clock.
0:29:22 > 0:29:26Now to a filmmaker who has sent seismic shocks through
0:29:26 > 0:29:31festival circuits and lists Werner Herzog and John Waters amongst his fans.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34Austrian director Ulrich Seidl's provocative, uncompromising new
0:29:34 > 0:29:39trilogy, Paradise: Love, Faith and Hope, provides a stark window into
0:29:39 > 0:29:43the worlds of three women and their search for the personal paradise.
0:29:54 > 0:29:57In the Paradise trilogy, Seidl underscores his ability to
0:29:57 > 0:30:01create uncomfortable viewing through excruciatingly intimate
0:30:01 > 0:30:02examination of his characters.
0:30:15 > 0:30:17The first film, Love, takes us to the
0:30:17 > 0:30:21heart of sexual tourism with middle-aged divorcee Teresa.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33Teresa is faced with tensions between her desire
0:30:33 > 0:30:36and the financial transactions demanded by her would-be young lovers.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51Complex relationships with men
0:30:51 > 0:30:54and religion run through the second instalment, Faith,
0:30:54 > 0:30:58as a devout Catholic woman struggles with the return of her
0:30:58 > 0:31:01estranged Muslim husband.
0:31:01 > 0:31:06Hope, the final and more redemptive of the films, is set in a teenage diet camp.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11It examines 13-year-old Melanie's crush on her doctor
0:31:11 > 0:31:14and the sexualisation of romance at that confusing age.
0:31:18 > 0:31:21Seidl's tableau imagery, mixed with long single-shot scenes,
0:31:21 > 0:31:24create a window through which to reflect on his subject matter.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28Although it often makes for awkward viewing.
0:31:34 > 0:31:40Marcel, three very stark films, but let's look at Love first.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43Were you uncomfortable watching this?
0:31:43 > 0:31:45I was very uncomfortable watching it.
0:31:45 > 0:31:47This is not a date movie.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49I made the mistake of watching it with my dad
0:31:49 > 0:31:51and I didn't know where to put myself.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53There are longueurs,
0:31:53 > 0:31:55it's challenging,
0:31:55 > 0:31:57it's very sexually frank,
0:31:57 > 0:32:00but I thought it was an amazing film.
0:32:00 > 0:32:02I've never seen anything like it
0:32:02 > 0:32:05and it will haunt me for a long time.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10There's a naturalism, a nakedness about the characters
0:32:10 > 0:32:12that you just don't see at the cinema.
0:32:12 > 0:32:14Yes, it's a difficult European film
0:32:14 > 0:32:17but I think we should salute it for that reason.
0:32:17 > 0:32:18To echo Marcel,
0:32:18 > 0:32:20it's uncomfortable viewing.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23The director has a photography background
0:32:23 > 0:32:26and you can see that in the way those shots are composed, in wide shots.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29There's shots where you have the white Austrian women
0:32:29 > 0:32:31in a row of sun-loungers
0:32:31 > 0:32:34and on the other side you have a long line of African men waiting
0:32:34 > 0:32:37and it's deeply uncomfortable.
0:32:37 > 0:32:39The other thing that makes it uncomfortable
0:32:39 > 0:32:43is these are amateurs and professionals working together...
0:32:43 > 0:32:45The Kenyans are the amateurs.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48Some of these are actually beach boys
0:32:48 > 0:32:51and you don't quite know
0:32:51 > 0:32:53how much they knew before the scenes began,
0:32:53 > 0:32:55what level of improvisation there was.
0:32:55 > 0:32:58I watched it on my own.
0:32:58 > 0:32:59I was quite glad I did
0:32:59 > 0:33:03because this felt like it was verging on quite uncomfortable,
0:33:03 > 0:33:06ethically dubious territory.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08I felt really implicated in the sex tours
0:33:08 > 0:33:11and when I realised a lot of these guys are not professional actors.
0:33:11 > 0:33:13It's incredibly explicit.
0:33:13 > 0:33:15Is it exploitative, do you think?
0:33:15 > 0:33:19I think it WAS exploitative and really quite soiling.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22It's a long time since I watched a film
0:33:22 > 0:33:23that made me feel that powerfully.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26I feel it does implicate the audience
0:33:26 > 0:33:28in the sexual exploitation of these men.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31At the same time, it is quite beautiful
0:33:31 > 0:33:33and a world you've never seen before.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36I thought the inversion of the genders for sex tourism
0:33:36 > 0:33:37really highlighted...
0:33:37 > 0:33:39If they had been
0:33:39 > 0:33:41fat, unattractive old men
0:33:41 > 0:33:44and very beautiful young women, I wouldn't have been as uncomfortable
0:33:44 > 0:33:46because it's so familiar.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48What about the idea that it's kind of Rubenesque,
0:33:48 > 0:33:51that there's a beauty their bodies as well?
0:33:51 > 0:33:53I think if you point the camera
0:33:53 > 0:33:56at anything for long enough, it becomes beautiful to your eye
0:33:56 > 0:33:58and I think it's just so unfamiliar
0:33:58 > 0:34:00and you realise
0:34:00 > 0:34:01after ten minutes,
0:34:01 > 0:34:03the actress is a very beautiful woman.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06What did you think of her journey, though?
0:34:06 > 0:34:09The idea was that this was her first
0:34:09 > 0:34:11episode of sex tourism
0:34:11 > 0:34:13but she became coarsened...
0:34:13 > 0:34:16It's a great descent, great storytelling.
0:34:16 > 0:34:17..towards these men.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19She starts off wanting love, a man to look into her eyes
0:34:19 > 0:34:21and then gets progressively disillusioned
0:34:21 > 0:34:23as she has one bad experience after another.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25We don't know how the movie
0:34:25 > 0:34:27was made, but in terms of the film,
0:34:27 > 0:34:29the exploitation is mutual -
0:34:29 > 0:34:31the men get money, the women get sex.
0:34:31 > 0:34:35It's hard to say who's benefiting but by the end,
0:34:35 > 0:34:38she's become so coarsened by the experience that she takes...
0:34:38 > 0:34:42You feel she really degrades someone who
0:34:42 > 0:34:46is not part of this, without wanting to give the whole plot away,
0:34:46 > 0:34:49she degrades someone who's not part of this whole system
0:34:49 > 0:34:51and it's deeply troubling.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54Then you have, in one other of the trilogy
0:34:54 > 0:34:56the woman who's gone to Kenya's sister.
0:34:56 > 0:34:58She has either the zeal of a convert
0:34:58 > 0:35:00or is a very ardent Roman Catholic
0:35:00 > 0:35:03who is evangelising.
0:35:03 > 0:35:04What did you think about that?
0:35:04 > 0:35:07This is a very Austrian form of Roman Catholicism.
0:35:07 > 0:35:09It's not Irish Catholicism,
0:35:09 > 0:35:11that's for sure.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13It's very, very rigid
0:35:13 > 0:35:15and I felt I really wanted to like the film
0:35:15 > 0:35:17because it's very beautiful
0:35:17 > 0:35:19and there's a lovely central relationship
0:35:19 > 0:35:21and I really liked that character.
0:35:21 > 0:35:22I think although they're very stark,
0:35:22 > 0:35:24the characters are quite sympathetic
0:35:24 > 0:35:28but at the same time I didn't feel it was anything to do with spirituality...
0:35:28 > 0:35:31It's all to do with sex, isn't it?
0:35:31 > 0:35:33It's all about repressed sexuality.
0:35:33 > 0:35:35But she scourges herself...
0:35:35 > 0:35:37in a very strange and sexual way,
0:35:37 > 0:35:40trying to atone for the sins of others.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43I felt that was a misunderstanding of a search for spirituality
0:35:43 > 0:35:47through very rigid religion, which I think...
0:35:48 > 0:35:50That ambiguous thing she does with the crucifix...
0:35:50 > 0:35:52I felt that was a bit silly, to be honest.
0:35:52 > 0:35:55I think there were some really interesting things in this film
0:35:55 > 0:35:57in the sense that they had
0:35:57 > 0:35:59this ardent Catholic
0:35:59 > 0:36:02who is in a relationship with a Muslim guy
0:36:02 > 0:36:05who comes back halfway through the film - her husband.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07What I find quite interesting
0:36:07 > 0:36:08and quite counter-intuitive
0:36:08 > 0:36:10was that he is basically saying to her,
0:36:10 > 0:36:12"You've gone a bit too far.
0:36:12 > 0:36:14"What's up with your religion?"
0:36:14 > 0:36:16That was quite clever, but I think in this film,
0:36:16 > 0:36:19as in some of the other ones in the trilogy,
0:36:19 > 0:36:21he creates interesting characters
0:36:21 > 0:36:22and puts them in interesting scenes
0:36:22 > 0:36:24but he sort of runs out of plot.
0:36:24 > 0:36:26Yes, but just going back
0:36:26 > 0:36:28to the nature of the Roman Catholicism,
0:36:28 > 0:36:30this was shown
0:36:30 > 0:36:32in Venice and there was an outcry
0:36:32 > 0:36:33in the Roman Catholic Church
0:36:33 > 0:36:36about the way this was being portrayed.
0:36:36 > 0:36:38It's actual quite comical as well.
0:36:38 > 0:36:40There's the scene where she goes into this elderly couple
0:36:40 > 0:36:43and starts hectoring them because they're living in sin
0:36:43 > 0:36:46and it felt a bit improvised.
0:36:46 > 0:36:47It's actually quite funny.
0:36:47 > 0:36:49It was done in a documentary style.
0:36:49 > 0:36:52It looked like they had just sent her in to some non-actors.
0:36:52 > 0:36:54The director does come from a documentary background...
0:36:54 > 0:36:56Is that problematic in terms of creating drama?
0:36:56 > 0:36:59Watching it and knowing about the beach boys,
0:36:59 > 0:37:01then there's this really fantastic scene
0:37:01 > 0:37:05of this really out-of-control, angry, alcoholic Russian woman.
0:37:05 > 0:37:08And knowing about the beach boys, I was thinking, "This is very well improvised,"
0:37:08 > 0:37:11then realising afterwards and thinking,
0:37:11 > 0:37:14"She probably was a really angry, alcoholic Russian woman!"
0:37:14 > 0:37:16We don't know.
0:37:16 > 0:37:18We have to assume the filmmaker's working in good faith.
0:37:18 > 0:37:21The third film is the daughter of the woman who's the sex tourist.
0:37:23 > 0:37:24While she is off in Kenya,
0:37:24 > 0:37:26her daughter has been sent to a diet camp.
0:37:26 > 0:37:31I kept thinking of Stand By Me or something.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34This seemed to be much more dramatic with a lovely narrative.
0:37:34 > 0:37:38Until the paedophile plot kicked in...
0:37:38 > 0:37:42You recognise the filmmaker's DNA after a while
0:37:42 > 0:37:45and are kind of bracing yourself for the horrible
0:37:45 > 0:37:49revelation that will take the plot in a weird direction, but of
0:37:49 > 0:37:53all the stories, that is the one that has some redemption in it, I think.
0:37:53 > 0:37:55It does say something about the trilogy that
0:37:55 > 0:37:58a film about a 13-year-old and a much older doctor is the most
0:37:58 > 0:38:00heart-warming film of the group.
0:38:00 > 0:38:06What he does, incredibly, is capture teenage girls talking to each other.
0:38:06 > 0:38:07He is absolutely brilliant.
0:38:07 > 0:38:10There's a bit with the three girls lying on the bunk beds,
0:38:10 > 0:38:13seen from their knees, playing with their DSs.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16It's just really sweet and the relationship...
0:38:16 > 0:38:19What he really captured, which I have never seen on film before,
0:38:19 > 0:38:22is the girls' relationships are with one another.
0:38:22 > 0:38:27And the love interest is just a prop. The doctor is a notional man.
0:38:28 > 0:38:32There's a scene of when the women in love are on the lounger
0:38:32 > 0:38:34and they are talking about their men...
0:38:34 > 0:38:35I never thought of that.
0:38:35 > 0:38:37It's basically the same thing and you wonder
0:38:37 > 0:38:40whether that will happen to them in a couple of decades.
0:38:40 > 0:38:42It's interesting that this is the younger kids,
0:38:42 > 0:38:45the unsullied version, that kind of wide-eyed innocence, asking each
0:38:45 > 0:38:49other questions cos they're really scared they don't know the answers.
0:38:49 > 0:38:54Both of those scenes involve "what do you do with hair?" and things like that.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57One of them is talking about it, their mother's talking about it
0:38:57 > 0:38:59and the daughter's talking about it.
0:38:59 > 0:39:02What do you think is the experience of having these three films together?
0:39:02 > 0:39:06To watch them back-to-back is a pretty tough watch.
0:39:06 > 0:39:10But he's saying something about paradise, I suppose.
0:39:10 > 0:39:11To me, the strongest film is the first one
0:39:11 > 0:39:14and the other two are less successful.
0:39:14 > 0:39:15Love has the strongest narrative
0:39:15 > 0:39:18and the biggest sense of the character of the journey.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21The other two, I would find fault with.
0:39:21 > 0:39:22Could you watch them together?
0:39:22 > 0:39:25God, I wouldn't ask anybody to watch them back-to-back.
0:39:25 > 0:39:29He wants people to watch them as a five-and-a-half-hour film.
0:39:29 > 0:39:33I would watch them a month apart. I think you would just recover in time to watch the next one.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36Werner Herzog said, "Never have I stared so directly into Hell,"
0:39:36 > 0:39:38which I think could go on the poster. KIRSTY LAUGHS
0:39:38 > 0:39:40Paradise: Love is in cinemas now,
0:39:40 > 0:39:43with Hope and Faith following in July and August,
0:39:43 > 0:39:45a month apart, as Denise says.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48Next tonight, Tim Burgess is perhaps best known as lead singer
0:39:48 > 0:39:50with The Charlatans.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52But he's recently paired up with Kurt Wagner of Lambchop
0:39:52 > 0:39:55for his latest solo album, Oh No, I Love You.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58Here's Tim with The Economy.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20# High noons and summers
0:40:25 > 0:40:28# The twelfth of five
0:40:34 > 0:40:37# We are no smoking
0:40:40 > 0:40:44# Beyond the still and viewless package
0:40:49 > 0:40:52# Ooh...
0:40:54 > 0:40:56# Our economy
0:41:03 > 0:41:07# We're so sorry, so sorry
0:41:07 > 0:41:13# It takes more than that for us to disappear
0:41:19 > 0:41:21# You can go there
0:41:21 > 0:41:24# We can do this
0:41:24 > 0:41:29# We'll pretend that we don't even need it
0:41:36 > 0:41:39# We can tune a piano
0:41:39 > 0:41:43# It's like everything we thought
0:41:43 > 0:41:45# That sax would be
0:41:54 > 0:41:58# Ooh...
0:41:59 > 0:42:02# Our economy
0:42:09 > 0:42:11# Ooh...
0:42:15 > 0:42:18# Our economy
0:42:25 > 0:42:30# Ooh
0:42:31 > 0:42:35# Our economy
0:42:44 > 0:42:47# It won't be wasted
0:42:52 > 0:42:55# It won't be lost
0:43:01 > 0:43:04# Always a poke
0:43:06 > 0:43:09# And you
0:43:10 > 0:43:12# Wore my clothes
0:43:14 > 0:43:18# Ooh...
0:43:21 > 0:43:23# Our economy
0:43:30 > 0:43:33# Ooh...
0:43:37 > 0:43:40# Our economy
0:43:40 > 0:43:42# We're so sorry
0:43:42 > 0:43:44# It takes more than that
0:43:44 > 0:43:48# For us to disappear
0:43:48 > 0:43:50# We're so sorry
0:43:50 > 0:43:52# So sorry
0:43:52 > 0:43:56# Our economy
0:43:56 > 0:43:57# We're so sorry
0:43:57 > 0:44:00# So...ooh... #
0:44:07 > 0:44:09There'll be more from Tim later in the show
0:44:09 > 0:44:11and his new remix album, Oh No, I Love You More,
0:44:11 > 0:44:12is out now.
0:44:12 > 0:44:15He'll also be performing a special one-off gig
0:44:15 > 0:44:19with Lambchop at the Barbican on the 23rd of June.
0:44:19 > 0:44:21Now, it's as much a symbol of the English summer
0:44:21 > 0:44:23season as Wimbledon and the Henley Regatta.
0:44:23 > 0:44:26The Royal Academy's annual summer exhibition
0:44:26 > 0:44:27is a huge melee of art
0:44:27 > 0:44:29which draws vast crowds
0:44:29 > 0:44:31and both fulfils the dreams and dashes the hopes
0:44:31 > 0:44:33of many amateur artists.
0:44:33 > 0:44:37It's far from easy to get your canvases onto those hallowed walls
0:44:37 > 0:44:39so elsewhere in the capital,
0:44:39 > 0:44:40one gallery is showing art by those
0:44:40 > 0:44:42who haven't been quite so lucky.
0:44:42 > 0:44:44Meanwhile, the Hayward is displaying work
0:44:44 > 0:44:46by individuals who create fantastical art
0:44:46 > 0:44:49which is outside the mainstream.
0:44:49 > 0:44:52The world's largest open-submission art competition
0:44:52 > 0:44:56has been running since 1769.
0:44:56 > 0:44:59This year, there were more than 12,000 entries
0:44:59 > 0:45:01and rivalry is fierce,
0:45:01 > 0:45:03with little more than 10% of the works
0:45:03 > 0:45:06being approved by the hanging committee.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08Once regarded as stuffy and staid,
0:45:08 > 0:45:11in recent years, the summer exhibition
0:45:11 > 0:45:13has tried to keep up with the times.
0:45:13 > 0:45:16Amateurs deemed worthy of wall space
0:45:16 > 0:45:19can see their portraits, abstracts or landscapes
0:45:19 > 0:45:22alongside work by distinguished names.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24The like of Frank Auerbach,
0:45:24 > 0:45:28Michael Craig-Martin and Grayson Perry.
0:45:28 > 0:45:30Everything is contemporary.
0:45:30 > 0:45:32Everything has been produced in the last couple of years.
0:45:32 > 0:45:35We have paintings people would describe as being traditional
0:45:35 > 0:45:37because they're straightforward landscapes
0:45:37 > 0:45:40or portraits or something like that,
0:45:40 > 0:45:44alongside much more difficult, challenging contemporary work.
0:45:44 > 0:45:48I think our sense is we need to make all of that work together.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53In a mischievous retort to this august institution,
0:45:53 > 0:45:55for the past 23 years,
0:45:55 > 0:45:56a gallery in Waterloo
0:45:56 > 0:46:01has been showing work rejected by the Royal Academy.
0:46:01 > 0:46:02Not The Royal Academy
0:46:02 > 0:46:05is inspired by the Salon De Refuses,
0:46:05 > 0:46:07a Paris exhibition in 1863
0:46:07 > 0:46:10which showed the work of artists such as Manet and Whistler
0:46:10 > 0:46:14which had been rejected by the influential Salon committee.
0:46:14 > 0:46:18Though this gallery, too, has selection criteria.
0:46:18 > 0:46:21We don't like really ugly things.
0:46:21 > 0:46:23Never have. We're totally escapist.
0:46:23 > 0:46:26We live in a world that's full of ugly things
0:46:26 > 0:46:29and when I go home and I look at my own paintings,
0:46:29 > 0:46:32that have been painted by artists,
0:46:32 > 0:46:37I would like to feel I'm looking at something beautiful and uplifting.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39Nearby, the Hayward Gallery's
0:46:39 > 0:46:41Alternative Guide To The Universe
0:46:41 > 0:46:43celebrates work by people whose imaginations
0:46:43 > 0:46:47have not been contaminated by traditional teaching.
0:46:49 > 0:46:51Almost all of them are self-taught.
0:46:51 > 0:46:53They didn't go to art school.
0:46:53 > 0:46:57If they're physicists, they didn't study physics at university.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00They learned things out of their own passion
0:47:00 > 0:47:04and they've also imagined things that most of us take for granted
0:47:04 > 0:47:07and decide we'll leave to the experts.
0:47:07 > 0:47:09I think what you see in this work,
0:47:09 > 0:47:13no matter how far-fetched or whimsical it may seem sometimes,
0:47:13 > 0:47:16is the strength of this utter conviction.
0:47:16 > 0:47:18These are people who believe in what they're doing,
0:47:18 > 0:47:21and most of them are trying to make the world a better place.
0:47:23 > 0:47:26So, Denise, beginning with the Hayward,
0:47:26 > 0:47:28the kind of Outsider Art, so it's called,
0:47:28 > 0:47:33often it's people on the edge of society who want to create a world that doesn't exist.
0:47:33 > 0:47:35Did you find it beautiful?
0:47:35 > 0:47:38I found it extraordinary and really, really stimulating.
0:47:38 > 0:47:42You know, it's so interesting to go to something like this after
0:47:42 > 0:47:45the Royal Academy because what it really highlights for me
0:47:45 > 0:47:49is all those filters that stop art being shown or appreciated,
0:47:49 > 0:47:52a lot of these people haven't been to art school,
0:47:52 > 0:47:56they haven't been accepted. A lot of these people were not known until they died.
0:47:56 > 0:47:58The work was not known until they died.
0:47:58 > 0:48:02There's one particular woman who did self portraits
0:48:02 > 0:48:05in kiosks in bus stations and it's Cindy Sherman.
0:48:05 > 0:48:08Cindy Sherman bought her collection and then repeated it.
0:48:08 > 0:48:10And then repeated it.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13Sherman is a name who's presentable so she gets through the filters.
0:48:13 > 0:48:16I find this so stimulating and I did think, you know,
0:48:16 > 0:48:19we should look for art everywhere, not just in galleries.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22But of course, often the kind of worlds they're creating,
0:48:22 > 0:48:26of course, have theories, which are absolutely fantasy.
0:48:26 > 0:48:30One of them was based on the idea that gravity doesn't exist
0:48:30 > 0:48:34and the planet's going upwards. The other thing to pick up on,
0:48:34 > 0:48:37I don't think a lot of these people think of themselves as artists.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40They think of themselves as scientists or mathematicians
0:48:40 > 0:48:42or philosophers and actually,
0:48:42 > 0:48:45what I found quite interesting was that some of the ideas
0:48:45 > 0:48:47behind the art was often more interesting
0:48:47 > 0:48:49and more vivid than the art itself.
0:48:49 > 0:48:53In a sense, this whole thing, it's not just the Academy is set up to keep these people out.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55There's a kind of euphemism going on here.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58A lot of these people have mental health problems.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01This is art by people, some of whom have spent their whole life in institutions.
0:49:01 > 0:49:05And I found the work very moving indeed.
0:49:05 > 0:49:08I'd seen the Japanese outsider art the week before,
0:49:08 > 0:49:11but one of the things that is moving about it is the sense
0:49:11 > 0:49:14that these are not artists who are in control of what they're doing.
0:49:14 > 0:49:18They're driven by obsessions, crazy theories that are palpably wrong...
0:49:18 > 0:49:20Do you need the biography, do you think?
0:49:20 > 0:49:25Well, I think that's part of the USP. I think it's implied.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28I don't know. I mean, what you're saying there about an artist,
0:49:28 > 0:49:32it's obsessive people, many of whom have mental illnesses,
0:49:32 > 0:49:35people working on the basis of completely wrong ideas,
0:49:35 > 0:49:38- that's most of us, isn't it? - Well, no, no...
0:49:38 > 0:49:42You know, monomaniacs, that's a definition of a human being.
0:49:42 > 0:49:44I think the other thing is that often art is about
0:49:44 > 0:49:47trying to create a vision and sharing that vision.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50I think they do stand up. You don't necessarily need to know the biography.
0:49:50 > 0:49:53What about the idea of "calendar savant", one is,
0:49:53 > 0:49:56which is the repetition of numbers? Which in itself is utterly beautiful
0:49:56 > 0:50:00and weirdly had echoes of Gilbert and George for some reason.
0:50:00 > 0:50:04That order, creating, some kind of desperate need to create order.
0:50:04 > 0:50:08There was another one, a woman who does things, I think she calls them painted prescriptions,
0:50:08 > 0:50:10this idea of trying to create something from inside.
0:50:10 > 0:50:13A lot of what was shown there is now actually quite old
0:50:13 > 0:50:16and is now fetching money.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19How quickly are the dealers going to move in
0:50:19 > 0:50:22and already have moved in on some outsider art as commercial?
0:50:22 > 0:50:25I think that's really worrying. One of the things about the way...
0:50:25 > 0:50:28I think as, you know, people making things,
0:50:28 > 0:50:31trying to make sense of the world by making things
0:50:31 > 0:50:35and reconstructing reality by making things, that's an activity.
0:50:35 > 0:50:39Selling things as a commodity is another activity
0:50:39 > 0:50:42and I think it's important in some ways to try and keep them separate.
0:50:42 > 0:50:43If you go to the Royal Academy
0:50:43 > 0:50:46and you see, and I went there on Buyers' Day,
0:50:46 > 0:50:48which was a really quite bizarre experience,
0:50:48 > 0:50:51because you're there and everything is about what the price is,
0:50:51 > 0:50:55who's got a future, what's going to be worth more in the future.
0:50:55 > 0:50:59And you look at outsider art and you think, you know, a market,
0:50:59 > 0:51:02- well, markets always build up.- And an outsider artist should be able
0:51:02 > 0:51:04to benefit from the market as much as anyone else.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07It's not about value. The market is not value.
0:51:07 > 0:51:12Outsider art has something special, because we get so bored. Money seems to have infiltrated the art world.
0:51:12 > 0:51:16With outsider art, these people were compelled to create and that's what comes through.
0:51:16 > 0:51:20It's unsullied by any mercenary motive. It's from the heart.
0:51:20 > 0:51:23That's what Samuel Beckett called it, "the itch to make,"
0:51:23 > 0:51:26you know, which is delicious, it's gorgeous.
0:51:26 > 0:51:30So you go from the relative quiet of the Hayward Gallery
0:51:30 > 0:51:35into the Royal Academy, 1,300 paintings, everywhere.
0:51:35 > 0:51:38- Was it thrilling? - It was more than thrilling.
0:51:38 > 0:51:41The novelist Stendhal had a series of panic attacks
0:51:41 > 0:51:43when he went to Florence because he was overwhelmed
0:51:43 > 0:51:47by the amount of art and I had something of the same thing when I went into the Royal Academy.
0:51:47 > 0:51:52It's so different, there are sculptures, light boxes, drawings
0:51:52 > 0:51:56engravings, installations, and I had to go back, actually.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59I went twice because the first time I was completely overwhelmed
0:51:59 > 0:52:02by the amount of art on display. But after a while it becomes demystified
0:52:02 > 0:52:05because it actually tells you the price of everything
0:52:05 > 0:52:09and that somehow brings it back down to earth immediately,
0:52:09 > 0:52:11when you go, "That's 1,500 quid. Not on your Nelly."
0:52:11 > 0:52:14And you can see people going around doing concisely that.
0:52:14 > 0:52:17There is not a space on the walls.
0:52:17 > 0:52:21And of course it looks crazy but apparently it's curated.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23- Did it feel curated? - It didn't feel curated.
0:52:23 > 0:52:27It is like TK Maxx on a Saturday for art lovers!
0:52:27 > 0:52:29But it didn't really feel curated
0:52:29 > 0:52:33and I was very interested in the curatorial statements
0:52:33 > 0:52:38at the start of every room, because you did think, "This is a jumble sale!"
0:52:38 > 0:52:40But what was really weird, you would look around
0:52:40 > 0:52:42and you would see there's a big Sean Scully,
0:52:42 > 0:52:44which bizarrely isn't for sale.
0:52:44 > 0:52:46And of all the artists, Sean Scully I wouldn't have thought
0:52:46 > 0:52:49would have wanted to have all these amateur artists around him,
0:52:49 > 0:52:52with varying degrees of ability, I would say.
0:52:52 > 0:52:55I think the only way it was curated was there were rooms
0:52:55 > 0:52:58devoted to photography and to portraiture
0:52:58 > 0:53:01and to sculpture, so in that way... You're looking unpersuaded,
0:53:01 > 0:53:03but there is a little bit of that.
0:53:03 > 0:53:05I found it absolutely overwhelming
0:53:05 > 0:53:08and I think that in a way what you have to do is just literally...
0:53:08 > 0:53:10In a way it's quite pure, though, because you walk around and say,
0:53:10 > 0:53:12"What affects me? What's actually touching me?"
0:53:12 > 0:53:15And because there is so much, you just look for the things that do.
0:53:15 > 0:53:18I found I was looking at things and thinking, "Oh, I like that one.
0:53:18 > 0:53:20"Oh, no, that's just the biggest one."
0:53:20 > 0:53:22And also, "That one's a way up there,"
0:53:22 > 0:53:25and you want to be able to just peacefully look at it
0:53:25 > 0:53:27but you couldn't because people were banging into you.
0:53:27 > 0:53:29Did you not find that the things that really struck
0:53:29 > 0:53:34were the things which were a bit different? I found I got exhausted by the paintings
0:53:34 > 0:53:38and it was actually things like... There's a car made of steel bars
0:53:38 > 0:53:41by Ron Arad, and did you see the girl posting a letter
0:53:41 > 0:53:44though the letterbox? It was a little sculpture.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47- I just thought it was absolutely beautiful.- It was nice to go around
0:53:47 > 0:53:50and think, "I could actually... There's a picture there for 100 quid."
0:53:50 > 0:53:53I know this is a tough economic time so you don't want to seem callous,
0:53:53 > 0:53:57but 100 quid for a piece of art that you might treasure for the rest of your life, you think, "OK."
0:53:57 > 0:53:59You start thinking, "This is not beyond...
0:53:59 > 0:54:02"If I didn't need a new boiler, maybe I would be able to!"
0:54:02 > 0:54:04And then you have the Tracey Emin limited editions
0:54:04 > 0:54:06with all the different stickers all the way along.
0:54:06 > 0:54:08Tracey Emin was certainly not going to get rejected.
0:54:08 > 0:54:12Apart from anything else she's a Royal Academician so, therefore, she gets her place.
0:54:12 > 0:54:15But if you were rejected, you can hightail it to Waterloo.
0:54:15 > 0:54:18- That's right.- And you can go into Not The Royal Academy.
0:54:18 > 0:54:22- Was that any less crazy? - It was not all the paintings.
0:54:22 > 0:54:27They've rejected pictures too. And I found it really interesting.
0:54:27 > 0:54:29One of the things I noticed,
0:54:29 > 0:54:33one of the consistent themes of things that had been rejected
0:54:33 > 0:54:37were views of places you can get to on Ryanair or easyJet.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39It just made me think, there was like Sorrento,
0:54:39 > 0:54:41"You're not getting in the Royal Academy."
0:54:41 > 0:54:43It made me think that's so class-ridden.
0:54:43 > 0:54:46It has to be a difficult place to get to, it can't be accessible.
0:54:46 > 0:54:49Picking up on your thing about TK Maxx,
0:54:49 > 0:54:53I thought there was an admiral purity to the exhibition
0:54:53 > 0:54:56in that you had pictures that were stacked
0:54:56 > 0:54:58according to the size of the canvas.
0:54:58 > 0:55:02And I think also there was a sense that you could tell what they actually wanted.
0:55:02 > 0:55:05You got it in the clip there, things that were pretty to look at.
0:55:05 > 0:55:08I have to say, what I thought I was looking at was paintings,
0:55:08 > 0:55:10- rather than art. - Not at the Royal Academy.
0:55:10 > 0:55:14It does say that the Royal Academy is representative of art now.
0:55:14 > 0:55:16It's not art now, it's pictures you can buy now, pretty much,
0:55:16 > 0:55:19- and some models.- But the stuff that wasn't at the Royal Academy,
0:55:19 > 0:55:22it's just pretty pictures. There's no engagement with the world.
0:55:22 > 0:55:26- And what does that say about British taste?- It says that people want something cosy
0:55:26 > 0:55:27to put on their walls.
0:55:27 > 0:55:30Well, you can enter the Hayward's alternative universe
0:55:30 > 0:55:32or check out the art for sale at the Royal Academy
0:55:32 > 0:55:35and Not The Royal Academy throughout the summer.
0:55:35 > 0:55:3820th century American legends have provided much inspiration
0:55:38 > 0:55:42for contemporary composers. Einstein, Nixon, Jackie Kennedy,
0:55:42 > 0:55:46even Anna Nicole Smith have all been given the operatic treatment.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49Now one of the greatest icons of popular culture,
0:55:49 > 0:55:52the man behind an empire which has entertained most of us
0:55:52 > 0:55:54at some time or another, is the subject of a new work
0:55:54 > 0:55:58by one of the world's leading composers, Philip Glass.
0:56:00 > 0:56:03Glass' 25th opera deconstructs Walt Disney,
0:56:03 > 0:56:06the creator of some of the most familiar fairytales
0:56:06 > 0:56:09and cartoon characters of all time.
0:56:09 > 0:56:12The opera is based on a novel by Peter Stephan Jungk,
0:56:12 > 0:56:14which reimagines Disney through the eyes
0:56:14 > 0:56:17of a disgruntled former employee.
0:56:18 > 0:56:21As Disney lies dying in a hospital bed,
0:56:21 > 0:56:24he confides to a nurse he calls Snow White
0:56:24 > 0:56:28that he hopes to have his body cryogenically frozen.
0:56:28 > 0:56:30At one point he is saying,
0:56:30 > 0:56:32"You know, I'm going to die,
0:56:32 > 0:56:35"but Mickey and Donald will live forever."
0:56:35 > 0:56:39And he seems almost jealous that his creation shall outlive him.
0:56:42 > 0:56:44# I'll become a Messiah
0:56:44 > 0:56:49# So that everyone who's afraid of death
0:56:49 > 0:56:53# Will never say die. #
0:56:53 > 0:56:57Disney is portrayed as a tyrant, a megalomaniac.
0:56:57 > 0:56:59His views on communism and race are revealed
0:56:59 > 0:57:03through a disagreement with an animatronic Abraham Lincoln.
0:57:03 > 0:57:06# ..I ask you to come back to
0:57:06 > 0:57:11# The truth in the Declaration of Independence
0:57:11 > 0:57:14# I beg you Do not destroy
0:57:14 > 0:57:19# An important emblem of humanity...
0:57:23 > 0:57:26# Be freedom
0:57:26 > 0:57:34# Become the political religion of our mission... #
0:57:34 > 0:57:37'This is not a documentary.'
0:57:37 > 0:57:43An opera is a form of poetry, so this is a... Oh, you can say...
0:57:43 > 0:57:47an impression... an interpretation of a life.
0:57:47 > 0:57:52OPERA SINGING
0:57:54 > 0:57:56Marcel, we expect Philip Glass,
0:57:56 > 0:57:59we have high hopes always of Philip Glass to come up with
0:57:59 > 0:58:02an extraordinary take on a subject or a personality,
0:58:02 > 0:58:04was this it on Walt Disney?
0:58:04 > 0:58:07You know, I really love the music of Philip Glass
0:58:07 > 0:58:09and one of the things I like about it is that it is open.
0:58:09 > 0:58:13Those arpeggios are like someone restating a question over and over again
0:58:13 > 0:58:15and expecting you to supply the answer.
0:58:15 > 0:58:17The trouble with this was that it was telling us
0:58:17 > 0:58:20what to think about Walt Disney, that he was a reactionary,
0:58:20 > 0:58:23that he was a bigot, and that he was an unpleasant individual.
0:58:23 > 0:58:26It didn't have the nuance that I think Philip Glass's music has.
0:58:26 > 0:58:29Do you think it was problematic that they were not allowed to use
0:58:29 > 0:58:32any of the Disney imagery? That they then created their own imagery?
0:58:32 > 0:58:36- I thought they did that brilliantly. - I don't think that was problematic at all.
0:58:36 > 0:58:38As an opera, not just a biography,
0:58:38 > 0:58:40I felt that the libretto did not work at all
0:58:40 > 0:58:42and I kept wishing they would stop singing
0:58:42 > 0:58:45so I could hear the music. I don't know if anyone else felt that way?
0:58:45 > 0:58:48But it is just, you know, everyone is declaiming all the time.
0:58:48 > 0:58:51It is organised in these vignettes - now we are here, now we are there,
0:58:51 > 0:58:54and so they all have to tell you where they are and how they feel about that,
0:58:54 > 0:58:59"I really like it here, and now I have got cancer." There is no interaction, there are no...
0:58:59 > 0:59:01There was no poetry.
0:59:01 > 0:59:04At one point they literally read out the train timetable, don't they?
0:59:04 > 0:59:07- Yeah.- Why do you think the libretto was so problematic?
0:59:07 > 0:59:09I think...
0:59:09 > 0:59:13To me it seemed like a very, very big star who may or may not
0:59:13 > 0:59:17be a little bit moody and everybody trying not to do anything wrong.
0:59:17 > 0:59:19It felt very, very staid
0:59:19 > 0:59:23and it felt like a collaborative project with one person
0:59:23 > 0:59:24with an awful lot of power
0:59:24 > 0:59:26and everybody else tiptoeing around them.
0:59:26 > 0:59:29The dialogue is absolutely awful
0:59:29 > 0:59:32and this thing of having subtitles above the stage of an incredibly
0:59:32 > 0:59:37beautifully staged thing, is so distracting and it is in English.
0:59:37 > 0:59:41I went with my wife and she said, "Actually, stop listening to the words and just try and focus
0:59:41 > 0:59:44"on the music instead and actually it will tell you the story better."
0:59:44 > 0:59:47I think the subtitles actually did not help that
0:59:47 > 0:59:49because you were reminded of how flat the libretto was.
0:59:49 > 0:59:52But the question that it asks was also quite an interesting one,
0:59:52 > 0:59:54about this idea of what is an artist?
0:59:54 > 0:59:57At one point the disgruntled animator says,
0:59:57 > 1:00:00"You are just an effective CEO rather than a real artist,"
1:00:00 > 1:00:03and that is quite an interesting question to be asking.
1:00:03 > 1:00:06But actually, Philip Glass said he wasn't doing a hatchet job.
1:00:06 > 1:00:09What he was trying to do was show a man of his time from a small town
1:00:09 > 1:00:13that then turned into Disneyland with all those racist, yes,
1:00:13 > 1:00:15tones of the time.
1:00:15 > 1:00:18You could make that argument, but I did not feel that I had left
1:00:18 > 1:00:22and I had seen a nuanced portrait of a genius, I felt I'd been...
1:00:22 > 1:00:24- And everything... - Maybe he wasn't a genius, though.
1:00:24 > 1:00:27- Walt Disney wasn't a genius? - Maybe he wasn't, I don't know.
1:00:27 > 1:00:29You could say that somebody could be a product of their time
1:00:29 > 1:00:33and still be a genius. I think we got the bit that he was a product of his time.
1:00:33 > 1:00:35I don't think we would have been persuaded on the basis
1:00:35 > 1:00:36of the opera that he was a genius.
1:00:36 > 1:00:39One of the central themes is the dispute with the employees,
1:00:39 > 1:00:41which is actually a much more interesting dispute.
1:00:41 > 1:00:43It is not just, "I worked for you..."
1:00:43 > 1:00:47- Intellectual property and all sorts. - It's about ownership of the characters,
1:00:47 > 1:00:49which would have been a fantastic thing to get into
1:00:49 > 1:00:52and it is a dispute that is still going on in comics now.
1:00:52 > 1:00:55It is that idea about whether you draw something or not matters, I guess, isn't it?
1:00:55 > 1:00:57- Or it is character design. - But Stan Lee is the same...
1:00:57 > 1:01:01- But that would be the same for Damien Hirst, wouldn't it? - It would be the same for Hirst
1:01:01 > 1:01:03and the same for Stan Lee, who didn't actually draw Spiderman,
1:01:03 > 1:01:07but it is still his character, and I think that actually, in a sense that,
1:01:07 > 1:01:09you can't be lucky for as long as Walt Disney was lucky.
1:01:09 > 1:01:12There has got to be some talent there underneath it as well.
1:01:12 > 1:01:14But what he had was the talent to pick the right people...
1:01:14 > 1:01:17- To pick the people around you. - And that goes for lots of big businesses.
1:01:17 > 1:01:20Which is what he explains as a little kid at the end of the opera.
1:01:20 > 1:01:22It is the same with Steve Jobs, isn't it?
1:01:22 > 1:01:25The idea that Steve Jobs didn't come up with the iPad or whatever,
1:01:25 > 1:01:27but eventually, that is what you get identified with.
1:01:27 > 1:01:29That is why I thought it was a hatchet job,
1:01:29 > 1:01:32I didn't think they were fair to what he has given to the world.
1:01:32 > 1:01:36Well, The Perfect American continues at the ENO until Friday, 28th June.
1:01:36 > 1:01:39Also that night, if you would like to see more modern opera,
1:01:39 > 1:01:43George Benjamin's Written On Skin is on BBC Four at 7:30pm.
1:01:43 > 1:01:47You can also hear it on Radio 3 on Saturday 22nd June at six o'clock.
1:01:47 > 1:01:50Well, that is just about it for tonight.
1:01:50 > 1:01:53If you want to find out more about everything we have discussed, do go
1:01:53 > 1:01:54to our website and, of course,
1:01:54 > 1:01:56don't forget to follow us on Twitter.
1:01:56 > 1:01:57Thanks to my guests,
1:01:57 > 1:02:00Denise Mina, Sarfraz Manzoor and Marcel Theroux.
1:02:00 > 1:02:02Next month, Martha will be here
1:02:02 > 1:02:06discussing some of the exciting events on offer at the Manchester Festival,
1:02:06 > 1:02:08including Kenneth Branagh's Macbeth.
1:02:08 > 1:02:11To get us in the mood we will leave you with a Manchester classic.
1:02:11 > 1:02:14Here is Tim Burgess again with his acoustic version of
1:02:14 > 1:02:17The Only One I Know. Good night.
1:02:28 > 1:02:32# The only one I know
1:02:32 > 1:02:38# Has come to take me away
1:02:38 > 1:02:42# The only one I know
1:02:42 > 1:02:49# Is mine when she stitches me
1:02:57 > 1:03:02# The only one I see
1:03:02 > 1:03:07# Is mine when she walks down the street
1:03:07 > 1:03:12# The only one I see
1:03:12 > 1:03:19# Has carved her name into me
1:03:27 > 1:03:34# Everyone's been burned before
1:03:38 > 1:03:43# Everybody knows the pain
1:03:48 > 1:03:54# Everyone's been burned before
1:03:58 > 1:04:04# Everybody knows the pain
1:04:17 > 1:04:22# The only one I know
1:04:22 > 1:04:28# Never cries Never opens her eyes
1:04:28 > 1:04:33# The only one I know
1:04:33 > 1:04:39# Wide awake and then she's away
1:04:43 > 1:04:48# The only one I see
1:04:48 > 1:04:54# Is mine when she walks down the street
1:04:54 > 1:04:58# The only one I see
1:04:58 > 1:05:04# Has turned her tongue into me
1:05:12 > 1:05:20# Everyone's been burned before
1:05:24 > 1:05:29# Everybody knows the pain
1:05:33 > 1:05:41# Everyone's been burned before
1:05:44 > 1:05:49# Everybody knows the pain
1:05:54 > 1:06:00# Everyone's been burned before
1:06:04 > 1:06:10# Everybody knows the pain. #
1:06:10 > 1:06:13Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd