:00:34. > :00:39.On the review show tonight, Sasha Baron Cohen is on dictator watch,
:00:39. > :00:43.is he on the mark or off tart? Laughs of a much older kind, Danny
:00:43. > :00:48.DeVito's British stage debut in The Sunshine Boys.
:00:48. > :00:52.Joanne Harris puts Islam in the mix in her latest recipe speaking
:00:52. > :00:58.success, Peaches for Monsieur Le Cure.
:00:58. > :01:05.Now they are 56, what do we make of the Child Stars of 7Up.
:01:05. > :01:10.Joining me in the studio are, Dent, columnist and TV critic of the
:01:10. > :01:17.Independent. And Anne McElvoy, the public policy editor of the
:01:17. > :01:20.Economist. And journalist and documentary maker, Sarfraz Manzoor.
:01:20. > :01:29.And we await Sweet Billy Pilgrim, playing live at the end of the show.
:01:29. > :01:35.And please let your fingers do the talking, take a Twitter with
:01:35. > :01:41.bookies and brickbats on Twitter. In a fantastic example of truth
:01:41. > :01:45.being stranger than fiction, The Dictator has been banned by a
:01:45. > :01:53.dictator, saying it does not suit the mentally of the people. Tyrants
:01:53. > :02:00.have been tempting targets for film comedy, from Hitler and ill ill ill,
:02:00. > :02:06.the dictator -- Kim Jong-Il, The Dictator goes for the deceased.
:02:07. > :02:11.Colonel Gadaffi has brought something to The Dictator.
:02:11. > :02:18.Love him or hate him, Sasha Baron Cohen knows how to provoke a
:02:18. > :02:24.reaction. Not long after his first comic alter ego, Ali G swaggered on
:02:24. > :02:28.to the TV screens, viewers couldn't decide if they were laughing at the
:02:28. > :02:33.leader of the West Staines Massive, or he was laughing at him. Ali G
:02:33. > :02:38.was a hit in the charts, and the wannabe Jamaican gained huge pop
:02:38. > :02:45.larts. With audacious interviews, he was also criticised for giving a
:02:45. > :02:49.white audience a license to laugh at a black stereotype. Next Borat,
:02:49. > :02:56.the stunningly vulgar TV presenter from Kazakhstan, who took a
:02:56. > :03:01.cultural tour of America in his on mockumentary. Bora it's bigotted
:03:01. > :03:07.outlook drew gasps from the audience, but also drew out racism
:03:07. > :03:14.from unsuspecting victims. Do you have slaves here J we wish. It is
:03:14. > :03:19.It is a shame? A big shame. Pushing the boundaries even further was
:03:19. > :03:27.Bruno, Sasha Baron Cohen's take on attitudes towards sexuality, made
:03:28. > :03:34.smug viewing to the by now knowing audience. It is a gay -by. What's
:03:34. > :03:41.the baby's name? I gave him a traditional Afghan name, OJ.
:03:41. > :03:48.African name, OJ. With his latest film, Sasha Baron Cohen has dropped
:03:48. > :03:52.interaction with real people and gone to scripted comedy. The
:03:52. > :03:56.approach may be more traditional, but Sasha Baron Cohen likes to blur
:03:56. > :04:00.the boundaries Bihar ranging journalists in character, as the
:04:00. > :04:05.General, the lifelong leader of fictional north African nation,
:04:05. > :04:10.Wadiya. For the supposed crime of
:04:11. > :04:18.embezzling money and a tiny bit of genocide. He arrived flanked by his
:04:18. > :04:22.on amazon guard, and has launched a Wadiya website, and ad campaign,
:04:22. > :04:28.showing the country's charms, including retirement homes for the
:04:28. > :04:33.war criminals and regular arrivals of hijacked airlines. An outrageous
:04:33. > :04:36.satire of despots, but does he pull it off with the interaction with
:04:36. > :04:44.the real world -- without the interaction with the real world
:04:44. > :04:50.which gave Borat and Bruno a satirical edge. From the moment he
:04:50. > :04:54.insisted on going to the Oscars in character, and dropped the ashes of
:04:54. > :04:57.Kim Jong-Il, expectations were high, did he fulfil them? I think some of
:04:57. > :05:01.the stuoints will detract from the film. What I liked about the film
:05:02. > :05:06.is, as you mentioned, he doesn't interact with real people. Towards
:05:06. > :05:10.the later films, is because he was interacting with people, the power
:05:10. > :05:15.relationship was with him, the power of the edit and he had the
:05:15. > :05:21.power, it made it cringe worthy. The fact it is a fictional
:05:21. > :05:26.construct, meant you could relax and laugh. This is the best one so
:05:26. > :05:30.far. Without real people it all rested on him. It all rested on him.
:05:30. > :05:34.I so disagree with you. I thought this was one of the worst hours I
:05:34. > :05:40.have spent in a cinema, ever. I didn't laugh at all. The only time
:05:40. > :05:43.I laughed was right at the end in the outtakes, where that was a
:05:43. > :05:51.completely different pace and different sense of humour. I think
:05:51. > :06:01.this is the equivalent of Steve Coog an's Tony Ferino, I don't get
:06:01. > :06:01.
:06:01. > :06:08.this. I went thinking I would get Four Lions, what I got was Duce
:06:08. > :06:12.Bigg ilo or third rate Adam sandler film. The people around me in the
:06:12. > :06:16.cinema, they enjoyed it and were laughing, but they were 16. Do you
:06:16. > :06:24.think it is a kids movie? Certainly not by some of the references. In
:06:24. > :06:31.terms of the numbers of references to...I Mean teenagers? I think the
:06:31. > :06:36.problem with it is it is too stuck together two films. I laughed in
:06:36. > :06:39.the first hour, when the focus son geopolitics and the Middle East,
:06:39. > :06:44.you have the nuclear weapon and the determination to have one. All that
:06:44. > :06:48.stuff, it really relates to dictators, that we have known. We
:06:48. > :06:50.have seen some fall and they are still there some of them. We are
:06:51. > :06:56.very engaged. Where it goes wrong, and you showed it in the clip, is
:06:56. > :07:02.when you get to New York, and you see the panning shot of the ennew
:07:03. > :07:09.goes to the New York, I thought it was Crocodile Dundee, and all that.
:07:09. > :07:14.It becomes entirely predictable. The jokes don't come as often. That
:07:14. > :07:20.is quite a long time I didn't laugh for 15 minutes. He almost has to go
:07:20. > :07:24.to America? It is a fish out of water film, it has Cock dial Dundee,
:07:24. > :07:30.and Trading Places. Bottom line I was cracking up the whole time.
:07:30. > :07:34.Some of it was the gross out stuff, and some of it is satirical. He's
:07:34. > :07:38.making jokes about well-meaning white liberals, and white racists.
:07:38. > :07:42.I think he's making interesting satirical points, it is not a
:07:42. > :07:47.satirical movie. He's not as interesting on America as he is on
:07:47. > :07:53.the Middle East. The white liberal jokes are pretty lame. It is not
:07:53. > :08:00.that difficult to send up a woman who works in a health food store
:08:00. > :08:08.and only ememploys vegans. When he gets to the end to the satirical,
:08:08. > :08:13.and should be the peak of the movie. You get this muddy mix of America
:08:13. > :08:16.with dictatorship, he misses the point sat teirically with America.
:08:16. > :08:24.There are tougher targets. Would it be interesting for him to take on
:08:24. > :08:28.Israel? He has a go, in an interview he gave, he talked about
:08:29. > :08:34.a lot of Jewish comedy comes from the persecution. I thought it is
:08:34. > :08:36.the Muslims who are getting persecuted right now, it would be
:08:37. > :08:40.braver to do that. The 9/11 thing with the helicopter, where the
:08:40. > :08:44.Americans are confused about the things, if you find it funny. I
:08:44. > :08:49.find it hilarious, in the cinema everyone was cracking up. Where he
:08:49. > :08:53.came off best was when he was doing the double act, with the former
:08:53. > :08:58.nuclear scientist that had come, who was a terrific actor. I thought
:08:58. > :09:02.Sasha Baron Cohen, not having to be always the centre of attention, was
:09:02. > :09:07.much better in that double act and did very well? I think it is
:09:07. > :09:11.interesting what you are saying, would it be cleverier or funnier if
:09:11. > :09:17.he did something about Israel. But this isn't a film for him to be
:09:17. > :09:20.clever in. This isn't Bruno, this isn't Borat, it is his chance to do
:09:20. > :09:27.the big Hollywood blockbuster, where it is about a flawed man,
:09:27. > :09:31.goes to America, and then a woman, he experiences thele feelings of
:09:31. > :09:38.love for the -- the feelings of love for the first time, she sticks
:09:38. > :09:42.with him. He insults her in a puerile manner. Is it misogynist?
:09:42. > :09:48.It is so puerile it isn't be offensive. That amount of puerile
:09:48. > :09:52.can't be offensive. That amount of insulting a woman with hairy
:09:52. > :09:58.armpits working in a health food store. I can hear that abuse by
:09:58. > :10:02.liberal women all the time, I'm on Twitter. When she finds out you are
:10:02. > :10:07.an internationally wanted war cimle that, and he says it never --
:10:07. > :10:10.criminal, and he says it will never stick! Those lines. Is this not the
:10:10. > :10:15.right vehicle, should he be doing something else then? I think so,
:10:15. > :10:23.the real problem was this attempt to move on. I probably disagree
:10:23. > :10:27.with you on that. This is not in the same catagory of Borat, neither
:10:27. > :10:33.in terms of script, you are looking sceptical. You are saying it as if
:10:33. > :10:37.it is a fact? I'm hope to go get away with it. He had control of the
:10:37. > :10:45.medium. He sometimes looks like he has lost control of the character.
:10:45. > :10:49.And he looks like he's losing the grip on it. Because the Curb Your
:10:49. > :10:53.Enthusiasm writers were involved, it felt like that in some ways. If
:10:53. > :10:59.it makes you laugh it works. I was cracking up when it said at the
:10:59. > :11:06.beginning "in loving memory of Kim Jong-Il". The four pages in the
:11:06. > :11:10.Metro was genius. Maybe it is about examining expectations, when I saw
:11:10. > :11:14.this character, I thought, you know, I actually do find, with gallows
:11:14. > :11:18.humour, I do find the ideas of dictators, obviously it is awful,
:11:18. > :11:23.but there is a lot of comedy then. This isn't what I was going there
:11:23. > :11:30.to get. I thought I would get this beautiful Chris Morris style.
:11:30. > :11:33.not him. I know, but it is that idea of tackling this big subject,
:11:33. > :11:38.something quite macabre. There was nothing about it. He likes the
:11:38. > :11:42.broad brush rather than that kind of forensic thing. It is managing
:11:42. > :11:47.expectations. You went and had your popcorn and just went for a laugh.
:11:47. > :11:52.I think he's actually a politically sophisticated bloke, he did want to
:11:52. > :11:56.make a big statement about it, it fell flat when you have to harness
:11:56. > :11:59.these things together. There will be The Dictator screening near you
:11:59. > :12:03.this weekend. For international movie stars, an
:12:03. > :12:09.appearance on the London stage, seems to become a box to tick on
:12:09. > :12:15.the acting CV. Following in the steps of many, Danny DeVito is the
:12:15. > :12:19.latest to test his metal on the boortdz, in a revival of one --
:12:19. > :12:24.boards, in a revival of one of Neil Simon's hits. The tar of Taxi and
:12:24. > :12:27.Matilda s making one of his first appearances in Theatreland,
:12:27. > :12:33.alongside West End regular, Richard Griffiths.
:12:33. > :12:41.40 years since DeVito last trod the boards, he has been tempted back
:12:41. > :12:44.for a starring role in Neil Simon's comic play, The Sunshine Boys.
:12:44. > :12:48.Simon's success with Barefoot in the Park and The Odd Couple, has
:12:48. > :12:54.dubbed him the most successful playwright in history, The Sunshine
:12:54. > :13:01.Boys is one of his most enduring works. Griffiths and DeVito play Al
:13:01. > :13:07.Lewis and Willy Clark, a pair who become estranged when their stars
:13:07. > :13:13.wane, when asked to reunite for a television special, it is not
:13:13. > :13:23.certain they will be able to put aside grudges and retake the stage.
:13:23. > :13:24.
:13:24. > :13:33.It was inspired by real-life double act whose career spanned 20 years.
:13:33. > :13:38.The original film version starred Walter Matthau as the vaudeville
:13:38. > :13:43.ian legends. Enter. What do you mean "enter", what happened to
:13:43. > :13:48."come in". There is no difference. The difference is we have done the
:13:48. > :13:52.sketch 20,000 times, you have always said "come in", suddenly it
:13:52. > :13:56.is "enter", why after all these years did you change it? I'm trying
:13:56. > :14:00.to freshen up the act. With director Thea Sharrock at the helm,
:14:00. > :14:04.and starry names on stage, this is sure to be a crowd puller. But four
:14:04. > :14:08.decades after its premier on Broadway, does the play's nostalgia
:14:08. > :14:13.feel like ancient history, is it any more than another well
:14:13. > :14:19.upholstered star vehicle, cruising into the West End.
:14:19. > :14:23.Grace, the Hollywood star, 40 years since he has been on stage, a 70s
:14:23. > :14:28.play about something in the 30s. Not very promising? This is it,
:14:28. > :14:34.talking about managing expectations, I had no expectations of this, I
:14:34. > :14:37.loved it. I went along, you see the promo for this, it is just two
:14:37. > :14:43.ageing, slightly rotund men facing each other, that is all it is. Then
:14:43. > :14:48.I went along, it is an old script, it is from the 70s, but there is
:14:48. > :14:56.themes going through that, that are pure joy. I particularly enjoyed,
:14:56. > :15:04.Danny DeVito is fantastic, and this idea, he's this old, retired act to
:15:04. > :15:09.he's incredibly bad tempered. His nephews comes on to argue. And I
:15:09. > :15:13.don't know, I have ageing parents, and I just really empathised with
:15:13. > :15:16.that, that going round and feeling like suddenly, you go round and you
:15:16. > :15:19.are trying to be the grown up, you are trying to be, and before you
:15:19. > :15:24.know it you are shouting. And then the laughter comes in, because they
:15:24. > :15:27.are dropping in a one-liner. I loved it, joy. Did you think
:15:27. > :15:31.Richard Griffiths was at a disadvantage having to come on
:15:31. > :15:34.later than Danny DeVito, and DeVito had the stage to himself? The play
:15:34. > :15:38.is odd, and the first half could have done with a cut for that
:15:39. > :15:43.rfpblt you know this guy will come on, he's a draw, Richard Griffiths
:15:43. > :15:46.has been in absolutely everything. Fantastic English comic talent, we
:15:46. > :15:51.wanted to see how he would transfer, he this delayed it too long before
:15:51. > :15:54.he came on. I broadly agree, the dialogue is so fantastic, it does
:15:54. > :15:58.remind you why Neil Simon was at the top of his trade for so long.
:15:58. > :16:03.The nice thing now is you are looking back at something written
:16:03. > :16:08.in the 70s about the 30s, you have two lens going on. The plays like
:16:08. > :16:11.this now, they are feeding into a demographic which will be one that,
:16:12. > :16:15.that demographic will be going to theatre for a lot more years?
:16:15. > :16:18.was nostalgic when it first started 40 years ago. It doesn't matter of
:16:18. > :16:28.being dated in that sense. I wanted to pick up The Simpsons sim thing.
:16:28. > :16:32.
:16:32. > :16:37.I have seen the film, I knew the -- the Neil Simon thing. I have seen
:16:37. > :16:40.the film, and there is a scene with Danny DeVito moving a table and the
:16:40. > :16:45.Richard Griffiths character, it is a power dynamic about where the
:16:46. > :16:51.table will be in the skrech. There is no -- sketch. There is no words
:16:51. > :16:55.to it, but it was like a dance. the heart of its about friendship
:16:55. > :16:58.and growing old and mistakes of the past. In the film you get a sense
:16:58. > :17:02.of their relationship. Did you get a real sense that these two men had
:17:02. > :17:05.been friends during their act? I got the sense they had been
:17:05. > :17:10.friends, but I got the sense that there had always been a massive
:17:10. > :17:14.things that had never been discussed. The. The whole idea was
:17:15. > :17:17.he said one day he was retiring, Richard Griffiths said he was
:17:17. > :17:22.retiring, and Danny DeVito said he thought they were going to get
:17:22. > :17:25.pizza and he said he was retiring and walked out the door. The whole
:17:25. > :17:28.idea is there is so much that wasn't said. We are coming to the
:17:28. > :17:33.point at it, we are watching the play where they are etging to say
:17:33. > :17:36.all the things to each other -- getting to say all the things to
:17:36. > :17:39.each other. It is only at the end you get a sense of the tenderness
:17:39. > :17:43.between them. If these guys had been together for 40 years, you can
:17:43. > :17:47.understand the bitterness. The residual respect and affection
:17:47. > :17:52.isn't quite there. Isn't it said that men at a certain point don't
:17:52. > :17:58.know how to do friendship. There is a difficulty when male friendship
:17:58. > :18:02.goes awry, and it becomes more bitter and threatened. A lot of
:18:02. > :18:06.things were driving this, one of the nasism of small differences,
:18:06. > :18:09.like your -- narcissism of small differences, with the moving of the
:18:09. > :18:15.table, I will move your cushion. At the same time they can't articulate
:18:15. > :18:17.what bound them together, and what pushed them apart. Neil Simon does
:18:17. > :18:22.that brilliantly. What is interesting is the thing they bond
:18:22. > :18:25.on is who has died. In a sense, because that is the thing they have
:18:25. > :18:28.kept going, from all the people back in the day, they reflect on
:18:28. > :18:32.who is no longer around. As regards to the friendship, that is why I
:18:32. > :18:37.found the end so moving. It is not overplayed, but it is just at the
:18:37. > :18:44.end, as the curtain begins to go down, you start to see them have
:18:44. > :18:50.this relaxed conversation. Were you not uncomfortable in the second
:18:50. > :18:58.half of the role of the black nurse and the Dolly dird. It is very 70s.
:18:58. > :19:04.It was a touch of Love Thy Neighbour. It wouldn't be now, it
:19:04. > :19:09.was a bit uncomfortable, the laughter was uncomfortable. They
:19:09. > :19:13.were very good, the supporting cast was very good. It was hard to fight
:19:13. > :19:17.your way in as part of the supporting cast, but they did it
:19:17. > :19:24.brilliant low? That scene between Adam Levy, and Danny DeVito, where
:19:24. > :19:29.he's talking about the care home he will go to. They start talking and
:19:29. > :19:34.Danny DeVito is worried his nephew won't visit him. I thought that
:19:34. > :19:38.tenderness was brilliant. Tickets are expensive, its in the Savoy,
:19:38. > :19:42.who will go and see it, it is mainly retired, well-off people,
:19:42. > :19:48.that is a nature of a lot of West End theatre? Is that so bad. How
:19:48. > :19:52.many great plays have we got about ageing around, apart from King Lear.
:19:52. > :19:57.You refer to the demographic. There will be so many of us in the
:19:57. > :20:02.position of these guys. I think so what, if it still feels as fresh as
:20:02. > :20:05.it does, with the odd quibble. With an ageing audience I think great.
:20:05. > :20:09.would recommend people to spend their money on that rather than
:20:09. > :20:14.other things. Spend your money on The Sunshine Boys, it continues
:20:14. > :20:18.until the 28th of July. Joanne Harris hit the big time with her
:20:19. > :20:26.third novel, Chocolat, one of the best sellers of 1999. It tells of
:20:26. > :20:33.the free-spirited Vianne, who sets up a chocolate shop in a sleep
:20:33. > :20:38.sleep -- sleepy village in lent, with the wrath of the priest
:20:38. > :20:42.brought down. This time it is in a town where the
:20:42. > :20:46.river rats arrive and they are north Africans and it is Ramadan.
:20:46. > :20:50.With Chocolat I was writing about a place which was quite deliberately
:20:50. > :20:53.not in a specific time. It was generally in the present day. But I
:20:53. > :20:57.didn't put too much there that was intrusive. My point was that I was
:20:57. > :21:02.writing about a community that had hardly changed, and where attitudes
:21:02. > :21:08.had hard low changed. With Peaches I went further -- hardly changed.
:21:08. > :21:12.With Peaches I went further, I was writing it at a specific time n2010,
:21:12. > :21:16.during Ramadan, where there was a great deal of debate about the veil,
:21:16. > :21:21.and whether or not it would be banned in France. I thought how
:21:21. > :21:27.could she go back there, it is a place that never changes. I what if
:21:27. > :21:31.it had changed, what if political and social issues have managed to
:21:31. > :21:34.penetrate this little Brigadoon- like place, where everybody expects
:21:34. > :21:37.everything to be the same. I thought we will have a Moroccan
:21:37. > :21:40.community, what sort of difference would it make to have a lot of
:21:41. > :21:44.immigrants right across the river. I don't feel that just because I'm
:21:44. > :21:49.writing about characters who happen to be Muslim, I'm tackling Islam in
:21:49. > :21:54.any way. I didn't set out to do that. What I set out to do was talk
:21:54. > :21:57.about identity and alienation. And the way people view outsiders.
:21:57. > :22:01.People have already said to me, this is terribly brave of you
:22:01. > :22:05.talking about Islam. I think the worst thing to do would be not to
:22:05. > :22:09.have any Muslim characters in a story which clearly needs them,
:22:09. > :22:13.just because it is seen to be a thorny subject. It is not a subject
:22:13. > :22:19.that I'm addressing in any kind of opinionated way, I just wanted
:22:19. > :22:22.those characters to be there, and they seemed to fit so well. As with
:22:22. > :22:26.Chocolat, Peaches for Monsieur Le Cure starts with a religious fast,
:22:26. > :22:31.swapping lent for Ramadan. relationship between fasting and
:22:31. > :22:35.feasting is sometimes a bit of an uncertain one. Because people fast
:22:35. > :22:40.so openly in Ramadan, and it is such a strict thing. I got the idea
:22:40. > :22:43.that it would be interesting to face Vianne with this problem,
:22:43. > :22:53.whereby the thing she uses to access people, and get to
:22:53. > :22:58.understand them, food, would just not work. "and you thought what?
:22:58. > :23:02.Poor,down droden Muslim woman, victimised. Poor frightened widow,
:23:02. > :23:07.welcoming any offer, however patronising of friendship, or of
:23:07. > :23:13.chocolate? How they all love the chocolate woman, who thinks because
:23:13. > :23:18.she once went to Tangier, she understands our culture". Another
:23:18. > :23:23.recurring theme in Peaches is magic, be it in the air or in the food.
:23:23. > :23:27.one level it is a fairy story, it has many elements of fairy story in
:23:27. > :23:35.it, if you can't buy into it, you will have a problem with the book.
:23:35. > :23:39.Although I have always tried to temper the magic with an element
:23:39. > :23:43.human psychology. She's just a unique person with a certain charm,
:23:43. > :23:52.charm and magic is the same thing. It is about being able to effect
:23:52. > :23:57.change on other people, or change one'sself or the world. That is
:23:57. > :24:04.magic. Joanne Harris said she had such a big hit with Chocolat, but
:24:04. > :24:08.said there was unfinished business there, was she right to finish it
:24:08. > :24:11.with Peaches for Monsieur Le Cure? She kept the sweet tooth in a
:24:11. > :24:14.literary sense. That trench from Chocolat trying to wrap it all up
:24:14. > :24:19.with Ramadan and the joint themes of food and fundamentalism is
:24:19. > :24:22.probably mother of a stretch. I enjoyed Chocolat an awful lot, it
:24:22. > :24:25.did get the twin themes of the role of the Catholic Church, but also of
:24:25. > :24:29.the enjoyment and the love of food and wine in France. I did feel this
:24:29. > :24:33.was more of a stretch. Some of these subjects, they are obviously
:24:33. > :24:36.related to what is going on in France at the moment n a lot of
:24:36. > :24:46.comounties. There was a slight Niamhity that one could --
:24:46. > :24:52.communities, there was a slight naivity that this could be sorted
:24:52. > :24:57.with jam, that grated. There was a thing that it could be solved
:24:57. > :25:01.quickly? I didn't read the first book so I didn't have an attachment
:25:01. > :25:05.to it. It was the idea that the clash of civilisations could be
:25:05. > :25:08.cured over chocolate. Food as the universal passport, as a theme, one
:25:08. > :25:13.of the things the book mentions, I thought that was not true. I
:25:13. > :25:19.thought there is a lot of racists who eat curry. Just because you eat
:25:19. > :25:24.from a particularly sis keen doesn't mean everything. The
:25:24. > :25:29.fundamental -- cusine, doesn't mean anything. The fundamental flaw was
:25:29. > :25:33.that. I think bringing the food into someone's house as a peace
:25:33. > :25:37.offering? She was rejected in that in a good scene in the book.
:25:37. > :25:41.Because she couldn't do it because it was a Ramadan was a powerful
:25:41. > :25:45.idea. The one good thing was it articulated the fears of the other,
:25:45. > :25:51.and what happens when a small town is changed. It did that really well.
:25:51. > :25:55.It would have been very easy to set this in an industrial city. By
:25:55. > :25:59.using this unusual setting, the village, added a dimension.
:25:59. > :26:05.point you made about the emotional attachment, I hadn't read Chocolat,
:26:05. > :26:10.I began, I thought I will plough on with this. I got about 50, 70 pages
:26:10. > :26:13.into it, I thought I'm not feeling this. About her going back to this
:26:13. > :26:18.village. I don't think that you can read that as a stand alone, had to
:26:18. > :26:23.go back to Chocolat, crib the whole thing and go back again. It meant
:26:23. > :26:27.something a bit more. Yeah, even then I was struggling a bit. It is
:26:27. > :26:32.that idea of kind of, and then I would go back and pick my peaches,
:26:32. > :26:37.and if you're not going about with that, all can be slightly lost with
:26:37. > :26:42.this book. How do you think she navigated her way around a small
:26:42. > :26:46.community. Did you believe in this community? You know, I found her
:26:46. > :26:50.less magical, and kind of good and all giving, and a bit of an
:26:50. > :26:55.interferer, I thought she was a bit of a stirrer at times. I thought
:26:55. > :27:00.something had gone wrong, because when the guy who is the wife beater
:27:00. > :27:04.appears, and calls her an interfering rude word, I was like,
:27:04. > :27:08.go on, tell her. She is, there is a lot of times when she's doing
:27:08. > :27:12.things, which I'm thinking, surely you know how incendiary that is, to
:27:12. > :27:16.take that person and give them this. And to hide a person in her house,
:27:16. > :27:21.a young girl. This is the white woman comes, takes the poor Muslim
:27:21. > :27:27.woman away from these people who are Harrying her, because she has
:27:27. > :27:31.tried -- harrying her, because she tried to commit suicide? She's
:27:31. > :27:36.supposed to be a flawed character. Things have unwound since Chocolat,
:27:36. > :27:42.when she has gone off on the house boat with her handsome gypsy, what
:27:42. > :27:47.could possibly go wrong. She's come back in and is discombobulated, her
:27:47. > :27:51.judgment calls are not right. That is the excuse for that. She says
:27:51. > :27:57.things about never belonging to one tribe, that is why she can so
:27:57. > :28:00.easily wander. It is like, oh please, that won't be a good start.
:28:00. > :28:05.She's self-conscious, she is the kind of liberal Sasha Baron Cohen
:28:05. > :28:09.would have had a got at in The Dictator. There was There was the
:28:09. > :28:13.sense if you have a novel where you have a beleaguered minority, and
:28:13. > :28:18.there is some well-meaning white person who rescues and saves them.
:28:18. > :28:24.That was problematic. The other thing is this idea that the girl,
:28:24. > :28:28.for her redumb means cutting her hair and changing -- redemption
:28:28. > :28:32.means cutting her hair and wearing western clothes. I thought that was
:28:32. > :28:37.patronising, that the personal journaly is getting rid of the
:28:37. > :28:42.clothe you used to wear and ut can go hair. My other criticism is
:28:42. > :28:49.Joanne Harris can't come to a strong view about what she thinks
:28:49. > :28:58.about veils. She thinks you shouldn't wear the nick cab? It is
:28:58. > :29:03.also because she wants It could be soft and multiculturalism. She
:29:03. > :29:07.doesn't say the nick qab is the problem. I thought that was one of
:29:07. > :29:14.the most interesting things about it, I liked the way because she was
:29:14. > :29:19.telling the story of what she knew of everybody had told her, there
:29:19. > :29:23.was so many ideas of why women were wearing the veil. When I go around
:29:23. > :29:28.East London I think that, I think there is so many different
:29:28. > :29:32.personalities wearing the veil for so many different reasons, and it
:29:32. > :29:38.doesn't get discussed. That was the lovely thing about the book. Some
:29:38. > :29:41.people had worn it and this amazing woman had come into town, and some
:29:41. > :29:46.women had been pressurised. book was written around about the
:29:46. > :29:49.time. The whole thing about the banning of the face veil. Just to
:29:49. > :29:54.pick up on what you were talking about, you have to take a line in
:29:54. > :29:58.the sand and say what do we think about it. The way she gets round it
:29:58. > :30:02.is by arguing the cause of this is not due to religion, there is
:30:02. > :30:07.families and other reasons. That is a coppout, you are not getting to
:30:07. > :30:11.the nub of the fact, this a good or a bad thing. We agree for different
:30:11. > :30:15.reasons. It is a cop out, but then she comes out with a well-crafted
:30:15. > :30:19.solution to what is going on with this particular mysterious
:30:19. > :30:23.character. But doesn't answer the questions for anybody else.
:30:23. > :30:28.idea that it is slightly magic and real, what do you make of that?
:30:28. > :30:32.This is what I was going to say, the point is it is not a cop out,
:30:32. > :30:36.it is meant to be a fairy story and magic realisim, that is what you
:30:36. > :30:44.are meant to enjoy. All the ideas floating about, and have some
:30:44. > :30:49.peaches. Do you want jam! Make your own mind up. Give me a child until
:30:49. > :30:53.he's seven and I will show you the man, the Jesuit motto was the
:30:53. > :31:00.inspiration for 7Up. The first of its kind television documentary,
:31:00. > :31:06.but has proved very influential and long running. It was a snapshot of
:31:06. > :31:11.14 children, chosen to represent life in the 1960s, this week saw
:31:11. > :31:17.the first episode of 56Up. We spoke to the producer, and one of the
:31:17. > :31:26.subjects who features in next week's episodes. I think in 1964,
:31:26. > :31:31.when 7Up was made as a one-off programme, it was made to be a
:31:31. > :31:36.programme about social class. It was comised by a an Australia --
:31:36. > :31:41.commissioned by an Australia, who was shocked when he came to Britain
:31:41. > :31:46.with the social class. I don't like bigger boys hitting us and
:31:46. > :31:51.prefecting sending us out for nothing. The youngsters, Jackie and
:31:51. > :31:56.all her friends, who were working- class kid, came out, into a time of
:31:56. > :32:01.optimisim and full employment, I think if you were to make 7Up now,
:32:01. > :32:07.I think you would find much, much less opportunity now for today's
:32:07. > :32:14.seven-year-olds, from that kind of background. The series has not
:32:14. > :32:18.lasted almost half a century without generating some
:32:18. > :32:22.controversial over its focus on class and gender balance. One of
:32:22. > :32:25.the problems with it, and they are happy to admit it, is they didn't
:32:25. > :32:29.have enough women in the programme at seven. They didn't know
:32:29. > :32:33.everything would explode, and women would suddenly become executives
:32:33. > :32:39.and run their own businesses. We were just supposed to be the little
:32:39. > :32:41.women in the kitchen having the kids, barefoot and pregnant.
:32:41. > :32:45.participants' concerns about their own representation on screen have
:32:45. > :32:50.also been long standing. There are a few things I would like to say.
:32:50. > :32:54.The first thing is there has been tremendous goodwill towards the
:32:54. > :33:00.series. But I'm not the only participant who wants to set the
:33:00. > :33:04.record straight in a number of ways. I don't like being pigeonholed, I
:33:04. > :33:11.have rheumatoid arthritis, and Michael wanted to make quite a show
:33:11. > :33:15.of that. But I don't want it. It is part of me and I have to live with
:33:15. > :33:21.it. But it is not taking over my life. It is so important to me,
:33:21. > :33:28.that we protect people, that we care about them, but as documentary
:33:28. > :33:35.fill makers, we also represent them fairly and truthfully. That can be
:33:35. > :33:40.quite difficult. The predestination of our social class was the premise
:33:40. > :33:48.of 7Up. Now 40 or so years later, has it developed into something
:33:48. > :33:52.different. Children, who come from hugely different backgrounds.
:33:53. > :33:57.that at once! It is an accidental series, it was never meant to be a
:33:57. > :34:00.series. This first episode got 4.8 million, and more than 20% share.
:34:00. > :34:03.Are you surprised that there has been such a huge interest in it?
:34:03. > :34:07.Not really, I think there is so much affection for the story, and
:34:07. > :34:11.the brand, and for a lot of people they have grown up with this. What
:34:11. > :34:15.I thought was interesting is TV commissioning editors talk so much
:34:15. > :34:18.about the idea of ambition in TV. Often the ambition is just getting
:34:18. > :34:23.more ratings. This felt like proper ambition. The idea of properly
:34:23. > :34:26.trying to work out about class, what makes a man or a woman, class
:34:26. > :34:30.or character. That is ambition. shows how things have changed, when
:34:30. > :34:34.they made the selection, Michael Apted said himself, it was meant to
:34:34. > :34:38.be diverse. Of course it wasn't. It was completely gender skewed, there
:34:38. > :34:41.was three women, only? Obviously women not being so interesting, you
:34:41. > :34:46.must know that. Having said that, Apted is very good that he talk
:34:46. > :34:49.about it openly. Also what you get is a view of social mobility, that
:34:49. > :34:52.begins in the late 50s, it is between the end of Attlee, and the
:34:53. > :34:57.rise of the Open University. He's obsessed with whether they are all
:34:57. > :35:01.going to university or not. There is a perfectly happy family in as
:35:01. > :35:07.you traily ya, and one is doing well in university, and then the
:35:07. > :35:10.other is a car mechanic. You hear it in Michael Apted's voice, he is
:35:10. > :35:13.a mechanic. It is rooted in the view of what he want social
:35:13. > :35:18.mobility to be. That is why it opens up interesting questions now.
:35:18. > :35:23.What is honest about it, is the way people object to the way they are
:35:23. > :35:29.portrayed are able to say it. There is no subterfuge, including the man
:35:29. > :35:32.who went back. He left at 28, and is back for 56 to promote his
:35:32. > :35:38.music? You would have to have a heart of stone not to enjoy this.
:35:38. > :35:43.It was when he came back to promote his song. I would have cut that bit,
:35:43. > :35:47.I don't think I would have let him do his and western song. We are
:35:47. > :35:51.used to much more intrusive television now. We almost wait for
:35:51. > :35:57.it doesn't we. But the character of Neil, Michael Apted pushes him
:35:57. > :36:04.quite hard on his illness, his mental illness he has been through.
:36:04. > :36:09.How did you feel about that? that 20 and 35 he was homeless. He
:36:09. > :36:12.couldn't get think worse, and he was a Lib Dem councillor. You need
:36:12. > :36:17.that moment of penetration, you only see the people every seven
:36:17. > :36:20.years. And also Apted has a relationship with these people
:36:20. > :36:24.going back. He also challenges the social determinism, which is the
:36:24. > :36:28.way it started out. Give us the child when seven and we will
:36:28. > :36:32.predict. He came from a suburban background and not a poor back
:36:32. > :36:38.group, he had a terrible struggle with life, and was still struggling
:36:38. > :36:44.with life, and the children that came out of the care homes, the one
:36:44. > :36:48.one seen so far had created an incredibleably stable life for
:36:48. > :36:53.themselves. It was a cut and dried post-war socialist view what was
:36:53. > :36:58.going to happen, and that didn't happen, interestingly. I was going
:36:58. > :37:00.to say, even at 14 people were watching The Seven, so it has
:37:00. > :37:05.become a conversation amongst themselves. It is interesting that
:37:05. > :37:10.you have the guy who wants to promote his music. Neil who wants
:37:10. > :37:14.to promote his writing, and something else who wants to promote
:37:14. > :37:21.charity. The power seems to be with the people featured. It is not just
:37:21. > :37:25.making those excuses the, want to go back and do that again -- that
:37:25. > :37:30.they want to go back and do it again. They are coming back with
:37:30. > :37:34.the excuses saying they would only do it for the charity. The one
:37:34. > :37:38.person not appearing is Charles, and he's documentary producer.
:37:38. > :37:47.starts when they are seven, it is black and white and feels like a
:37:47. > :37:53.different era. I know there is the Ray Winston one that started in
:37:53. > :37:56.2000, Child Of Our Time. You would be filming people every five
:37:56. > :38:01.minutes, you would have to be disciplined to get a trail of their
:38:01. > :38:04.life. People will be communicating themselves. This relies on the
:38:04. > :38:08.discretion of the participants themselves. They are not tweeting
:38:08. > :38:13.every week what they are up to. There is the sense which time is
:38:13. > :38:18.different in epox. This is so lovely, it shows you, every seven
:38:18. > :38:24.years and they largely play by the rules. That is not possible now. It
:38:24. > :38:28.will be special television forever. It is interesting TV wants instant
:38:28. > :38:32.transformation, 24 hours, a week, the idea you transform over 56
:38:32. > :38:37.years. That is the point about ambitious television, it is
:38:37. > :38:46.ambitious because you are doing this amazing thing. Nowadays it
:38:46. > :38:50.would be loads of footage. Episode two of 56Up on ITV1 on Monday.
:38:50. > :38:55.Today is national museum day, hundreds of museums didn't lock
:38:55. > :38:59.their doors tonight. They stayed open for special events and
:38:59. > :39:04.performances, even camping in for all the fafplly. Museums at Night
:39:04. > :39:08.is late night opening, to get museums and galleries and art
:39:08. > :39:11.centres to do something different, by opening late and do something
:39:11. > :39:14.different. By doing something different they can attract new
:39:14. > :39:17.people into the venue and explore a different way to look at the
:39:17. > :39:22.collection, and a different way to look at the building. People really
:39:22. > :39:28.like the idea of going into a museum or gallery space at night,
:39:28. > :39:32.seeing the paintings in a different way. A lot of the venues,
:39:32. > :39:38.particularly the heritage houses actually do light the venues
:39:38. > :39:43.differently, they do candlelit tours and ghost walks, they are
:39:43. > :39:49.playing with the idea of nightime. Other venues are going for the
:39:49. > :39:53.social part of nightime, it might be about live music or interacting
:39:53. > :39:57.or participating. That captures people's imaginations. In London
:39:57. > :40:01.some of the national museums have set a trend of not opening. Museums
:40:01. > :40:06.and galleries have to compete in a different kind of world now, where
:40:06. > :40:09.there is a lot more to do. Opening at night, they can start to be part
:40:09. > :40:13.of the nightime economy. One of the lovely things about museums at
:40:13. > :40:17.night, is it involves some of the big national museums in London, but
:40:17. > :40:22.also the tiny museums all over the country.
:40:22. > :40:29.We have been amazed at the take-up of the number of venues taking part.
:40:29. > :40:33.We have 5,000 venues in our network, there is an opportunity for Museums
:40:34. > :40:37.at Night to grow. We want to make it one of the biggest celebrations
:40:37. > :40:41.of culture in the UK. Museums at Night continues until Sunday and
:40:41. > :40:49.there are more details about that and everything we have featured
:40:49. > :40:59.tonight in the website. Do take a look. Thanks to tonight's panel,
:40:59. > :41:01.
:41:02. > :41:10.But we won'ting here next week, we will review Ridley Scott's return.
:41:10. > :41:13.And Tracy Emin's return to Martin McGuinness gate. This is Sweet
:41:13. > :41:20.Billy Pilgrim with joy -- return to Margate. This is Sweet Billy
:41:20. > :41:30.Pilgrim with Joyful Reunion. # Started in the city
:41:30. > :41:30.
:41:30. > :41:40.# Far beyond the reach of memory # Where I was the word breaking
:41:40. > :41:41.
:41:41. > :41:51.# Out of the par enthesis # You summoned the spark
:41:51. > :41:56.# Before the cigarette was in my mouth
:41:56. > :42:06.# The inconsolable wind # Just enough to make it flicker
:42:06. > :42:15.
:42:15. > :42:24.# So let it all come down M explode without a sound
:42:24. > :42:29.# And the sigh lens seems # Much louder than it ever did
:42:29. > :42:34.# When all we have to measure it # Is time
:42:34. > :42:41.# We tear the pages out # But we ride from faster
:42:41. > :42:49.# Ride them faster # We tear the pages out
:42:49. > :42:59.# But we ride them faster # Ride them faster
:42:59. > :42:59.
:42:59. > :43:02.# We try to look away # But we are dazzled by this
:43:02. > :43:11.cemetery # We tear the pages out
:43:11. > :43:21.# But we ride them faster # Ride them faster
:43:21. > :43:26.
:43:26. > :43:33.# So let all come down # Explode without a sound
:43:33. > :43:37.# Oh # We tear the pages out
:43:37. > :43:44.# Oh come down # But we ride them faster
:43:44. > :43:49.# Oh come down # Explode without a sound