Nomia Iqbal

:00:00. > :00:00.brought by people conceived at a fertility clinic. -- Leo Varadkar.

:00:00. > :00:00.Now on BBC News, Asian Network's Big Election Debate.

:00:07. > :00:20.Welcome to the Asian Network's Big Election Debate. We are on the Asian

:00:21. > :00:24.network, and the BBC News Channel. I'm Nomia Iqbal, here in the

:00:25. > :00:28.splendid alga concert hall at the University of Birmingham, and on

:00:29. > :00:32.stage here in the concert hall. With me is our audience, people from all

:00:33. > :00:36.different backgrounds, different political allegiances, and with just

:00:37. > :00:40.one week to go before the big vote, they have a lot of questions about a

:00:41. > :00:45.wide range of issues. They will be putting those questions to our panel

:00:46. > :00:50.of guests from different political parties. With us today is Shailesh

:00:51. > :00:54.Vara from the Conservatives, Khalid Masood mood from Labour, Baroness

:00:55. > :01:07.Sheehan from the Liberal Democrats, Bob -- Bob Dhillon from Ukip, and

:01:08. > :01:11.Leanne Wood from Plaid Cymru. Following the horrific terror attack

:01:12. > :01:16.in Manchester last week, campaigning for the election had been suspended.

:01:17. > :01:20.Of course it has now resumed. But the events of Manchester are still

:01:21. > :01:23.very much on people's minds. I was in the city reporting and I am from

:01:24. > :01:27.Manchester. There were a lot of questions being asked in the

:01:28. > :01:31.aftermath. Let's begin the debate today with talking about what

:01:32. > :01:37.happened in Manchester, looking at some of the issues that came from

:01:38. > :01:40.it. Let's go to our first question. In light of the recent atrocities

:01:41. > :01:49.committed in Manchester, should Muslims do more to condemn terrorism

:01:50. > :01:53.within their communities? Shailesh Vara from the Conservatives? Let me

:01:54. > :01:56.express my deepest sympathies and condolences for the family and

:01:57. > :02:01.friends of those who tragically lost their lives in what was basically a

:02:02. > :02:06.very wicked and evil act. It has been condemned by the whole world.

:02:07. > :02:10.As far as community engagement has been concerned, of course. There

:02:11. > :02:15.ought to be engagement by every citizen in the UK. But given that

:02:16. > :02:23.many of the people who are engaging in this activity come from the a

:02:24. > :02:28.political community, it is right everyone is vigilant. It may mean if

:02:29. > :02:32.you are suspicious of an individual, reporting them to the police. Of

:02:33. > :02:36.course there will be some reluctance on the part of people to report

:02:37. > :02:39.individuals that they know, love and care about to police, but what I

:02:40. > :02:44.would say to those individuals is to just look at the pain and anguish

:02:45. > :02:50.that has been caused to all of the families and friends of... Because

:02:51. > :02:55.of those innocent lives that were taken away. It might just be the

:02:56. > :02:59.case that if someone is reported, we might just be stopping future

:03:00. > :03:04.tragedies such as that. So, you think the responsibility is for

:03:05. > :03:08.everybody, but specifically the Muslim community? I think that given

:03:09. > :03:12.the background of many of the people who engage in terrorist activities

:03:13. > :03:15.is from the Muslim community and certainly I would ask that the

:03:16. > :03:20.Muslim community is vigilant. That is not to say that it is the

:03:21. > :03:24.exclusive responsibility of the Muslim community, because many

:03:25. > :03:28.individuals go to colleges and work, and mixing everyday society. They

:03:29. > :03:32.are mixing with mainstream society. All of us have a responsibility. I

:03:33. > :03:37.will come back to the rest of the panel but I want to ask you, do you

:03:38. > :03:45.think that it is the slim's responsibility to condemn terrorism?

:03:46. > :03:50.-- Muslims. I think it is everyone's responsibility to condemn terrorism

:03:51. > :03:54.but there is clearly a problem within some aspects, a very small

:03:55. > :04:00.minority, of the Muslim community that I do not think the solution is

:04:01. > :04:04.to ignore it and say that it just is not there, because a significant

:04:05. > :04:08.portion, if not a majority of terror attacks we see, are committed by

:04:09. > :04:16.those supporting these ideologies, essentially. Bob Dhillon, Ukip? My

:04:17. > :04:21.sympathies again go to the people of Manchester. We have to go back to

:04:22. > :04:25.the 1970s, when we look at British policy which has gone wrong.

:04:26. > :04:31.Basically, what we have done is funded these terrorist groups in the

:04:32. > :04:34.1970s and 1980s to overthrow Russian regimes in Afghanistan and various

:04:35. > :04:42.other Middle East countries. That is where the policy started. Then, what

:04:43. > :04:45.we did secondly, was the secret services were qualified people who

:04:46. > :04:51.were replaced by cronies, by Tony Blair, who put cronies in to get the

:04:52. > :04:59.result that he wanted for the Iraq war, with no plan B. When you

:05:00. > :05:03.destroy a country, which Iraq was quite a nice country from when I

:05:04. > :05:07.visited it to what it is now, and have no plan B, and when people see

:05:08. > :05:15.that, they have this hate in them. You are linking terrorism to past

:05:16. > :05:20.behaviours? Yes. Whatever the issues are, we cannot blame any single

:05:21. > :05:26.policy young people's lives, people who have wanted to go out to enjoy

:05:27. > :05:30.their evening and barbarically killed those very young people in

:05:31. > :05:35.the way that they have done. Back to the original question, the issue is

:05:36. > :05:41.that a vast majority of the Muslim community condemns it out right, and

:05:42. > :05:44.I did an article at the weekend in a newspaper saying what the question

:05:45. > :05:49.said, that is small minority of people need to come forward and be

:05:50. > :05:53.part of the whole solution, and not continue to be the problem. The

:05:54. > :05:57.Muslim community has a responsibility because that is what

:05:58. > :06:01.the perception is. These people are from the Muslim community, so we

:06:02. > :06:05.have to deal with that. Of course it is a responsibility for all of us to

:06:06. > :06:08.deal with that. It affects all of us in our daily lives but it is

:06:09. > :06:12.important that we cooperate with authorities and explain that when we

:06:13. > :06:18.hear something, as trivial as you may think it is, it is best to pass

:06:19. > :06:21.it to authorities. Your party leader, Jeremy Corbyn, linked

:06:22. > :06:28.foreign policy with what happens? He hasn't. He has. He has not linked

:06:29. > :06:34.it, people keep getting this wrong. He said if we are called upon on the

:06:35. > :06:39.international arena in such a way, we should think about it, as we did

:06:40. > :06:43.in Syria. There was a vote, the Labour Party stood against and did

:06:44. > :06:47.not vote for it. It is a key step change in relation to how we move it

:06:48. > :06:51.forward. We need to look at those issues, and there can be no

:06:52. > :06:55.correlation with people acting deliberately, barbarically, to take

:06:56. > :07:00.people's lives in this country. It cannot be linked in that way.

:07:01. > :07:05.Leanne? I am interested in understanding what it is that

:07:06. > :07:09.motivates people to carry out such barbaric and callous acts,

:07:10. > :07:15.especially against young children. I think the target audience here was

:07:16. > :07:19.particularly... It makes it a particularly barbaric act. I used to

:07:20. > :07:23.work as a probation officer, and what they do is try and understand

:07:24. > :07:29.the root causes of people's behaviour. I think while it is the

:07:30. > :07:33.responsibility of every single citizen to be vigilant and to take

:07:34. > :07:38.action, there are things that the Muslim community can help with here.

:07:39. > :07:43.You mentioned ideology, and I think that there is a real issue about

:07:44. > :07:47.challenging ideology and really understanding the ideology driving

:07:48. > :07:52.this, and being able to argue and counter it. I am interested to know

:07:53. > :07:55.if some of you think, actually, Muslims should not bear the

:07:56. > :07:59.responsibility. They are always being asked to condemn these attacks

:08:00. > :08:05.and it isn't fair. Can we bring the microphone to this gentleman? The

:08:06. > :08:09.idea that nobody is saying that these attacks are OK, no such

:08:10. > :08:13.attacks are OK but the idea of the Muslim community should be guilty by

:08:14. > :08:17.association is fundamentally problematic. Ideologies are

:08:18. > :08:21.dangerous. Nobody is saying that but it is how people feel, right?

:08:22. > :08:25.Ideologies are dangerous across-the-board and they need to be

:08:26. > :08:28.challenged across the board. The community is challenging, we need

:08:29. > :08:32.serious questions about cuts when the Muslim community was the one

:08:33. > :08:37.reporting Salman Abedi a multiple number of times. We need a real

:08:38. > :08:40.discussion about what is happening here and what is happening with

:08:41. > :08:45.intelligence, and the idea that went something like this is perpetuated

:08:46. > :08:49.by someone specifically in a community that the entire community

:08:50. > :08:54.is to blame but when Jo Cox was murdered, there was no blame on the

:08:55. > :08:58.community, it was "Just some guy". But we know that there are dangers

:08:59. > :09:04.and to what happened in Preston the other day, with white supremacist

:09:05. > :09:08.ideology. It is murderous. We need to talk about what we all do rather

:09:09. > :09:14.than saying some of us are guilty by association, which we are not.

:09:15. > :09:18.Baroness Sheehan? Let me express my deepest sympathy for the families

:09:19. > :09:24.and loved ones of the 22 people who were brutally murdered. Can I pay

:09:25. > :09:29.tribute to the emergency services who came forward so fantastically

:09:30. > :09:32.for us, and the NHS which was exemplary and illustrates, if it

:09:33. > :09:40.needed illustrating, how important that is to us. Mancunians themselves

:09:41. > :09:46.stood shoulder to shoulder and refused to be divided by this act of

:09:47. > :09:53.atrocity. That is really to be welcomed. As a Muslim, I do not

:09:54. > :10:00.identify with that version of Islam, which is perverted. For a long time,

:10:01. > :10:03.Muslims like myself had been saying to the government, please do

:10:04. > :10:12.something to tackle the infiltration of this pernicious brand of Islam

:10:13. > :10:16.that is coming to us in our country, and other countries around the

:10:17. > :10:23.world, which is being exported by Saudi Arabia. The Wahab Riaz strain,

:10:24. > :10:34.which is allowed to preach in our mosques here, it needs to be tackled

:10:35. > :10:40.and I am ashamed we still called the Saudi regime friends and sell arms

:10:41. > :10:44.to them -- wahhabism. Those arms are used by the Saudis to kill civilians

:10:45. > :10:52.in Yemen, and we allow that to happen. I think this is part and

:10:53. > :10:57.parcel of the same issue and the same problem. It must be tackled at

:10:58. > :11:01.the roots. Let me pick up on that point, I heard a lot in Manchester

:11:02. > :11:07.about the double standard of the government when it came to Saudi

:11:08. > :11:11.Arabia. Clearly there are conversations that go on between

:11:12. > :11:17.governments... But it is about stopping the sale of arms... Can I

:11:18. > :11:22.just say... It isn't as simple as that. There is a huge amount of

:11:23. > :11:27.engagement with countries, and a huge amount of trade, a huge amount

:11:28. > :11:33.of dialogue. A huge amount of travel between people, back and forth. In a

:11:34. > :11:36.civilised world, we often try to talk to people, rather than take

:11:37. > :11:44.brutal action. On the whole, that civilised action of dialogue does...

:11:45. > :11:49.We see the world very differently. I have a couple of people with

:11:50. > :11:57.questions... Can I go to the lady at the back burst? What we are saying

:11:58. > :12:03.is trade is more important to us than our morals? -- feedback first.

:12:04. > :12:07.Let me finish, I need to say this. Saudi Arabia are committing human

:12:08. > :12:13.rights atrocities, it is agreed by the UN, some of the things that they

:12:14. > :12:17.are guilty of, it is awful some of the things that they do but we trade

:12:18. > :12:22.with these people and have a convex relationship with them. Why can we

:12:23. > :12:26.not bring that into the conversation, -- complex. Seeing as

:12:27. > :12:31.they are an enormous trade partner? The Baroness mentioned it is mainly

:12:32. > :12:37.based on arms, is that our business? What our country wants to be known

:12:38. > :12:42.as? The arms country? Let's become back to that. I am not saying that

:12:43. > :12:47.trade trumps human rights, whatever. If you look at international figures

:12:48. > :12:50.of the number of countries where they have questionable human rights,

:12:51. > :12:55.you would be surprised at the number of countries. It is not just Saudi

:12:56. > :13:01.Arabia that may be on any list, there are a lot of countries where

:13:02. > :13:05.ordinarily people go there and go on holidays too. We need to take

:13:06. > :13:09.uniform action and be consistent in the action we take, rather than

:13:10. > :13:14.picking on one country which, for various reasons, may be higher in

:13:15. > :13:17.the media profile than others. Before we go further, we were due to

:13:18. > :13:24.have the SNP here but they released a statement. Due to circumstances

:13:25. > :13:29.beyond his control, their representative was unable to attend

:13:30. > :13:32.despite looking forward to taking part in the debate. Just that

:13:33. > :13:38.statement, to let you know, if you are wondering why the SNP are not

:13:39. > :13:46.he. Let's pick up on that. -- why the SNP are not here. Khalid

:13:47. > :13:50.Mahmood, keep it brief? The first question about the far right and

:13:51. > :13:54.Islamic terrorists. That does not blame any community, there are

:13:55. > :14:02.individuals that we need to resolve, it does not blame the whole of the

:14:03. > :14:05.Muslim community or indigenous community in terms of supremacists.

:14:06. > :14:09.It is not tit-for-tat, and when we get away from that kind of thing,

:14:10. > :14:14.the supremacists are doing this, it is OK to do that... None of it is

:14:15. > :14:19.OK, that needs to be clear. In terms of arms and human rights, and what

:14:20. > :14:24.we do, we need to seriously look at this. We will look at whether we

:14:25. > :14:30.want to continue with the industry we have. America signed a $135

:14:31. > :14:40.billion deal with Saudi Arabia. That is exactly what I am saying. There

:14:41. > :14:47.are a number of countries that in terms of what they are doing has a

:14:48. > :14:55.worse record. Look at China. Lets just... Let's just wind up here. I'm

:14:56. > :15:02.also pointing out India... We have a lot of people to get through. In

:15:03. > :15:09.Punjab... I want to get back... Come on... I want to bring up police

:15:10. > :15:14.cuts. Many have mentioned this. This was something that the Conservative

:15:15. > :15:17.government were accused of, following the aftermath of the

:15:18. > :15:24.Manchester bombings. Your party cut the number of police, 20,000 in

:15:25. > :15:28.England and Wales. If there were more police on the streets, this

:15:29. > :15:33.wouldn't have happened? First of all, let me say there are two

:15:34. > :15:38.issues. As far as general policing is concerned, crime is down by one

:15:39. > :15:41.third. Crime is down by one third, notwithstanding... But violent

:15:42. > :15:45.crime... Notwithstanding that we have had police cuts. This tells you

:15:46. > :15:50.that it is more than just numbers and bodies on the streets. For

:15:51. > :15:55.example... You can have a situation, I have been to these centres, where

:15:56. > :16:00.you have a couple of police officers sat in a room, watching 20 or 30

:16:01. > :16:04.video screens because they had CCTV cameras. They can look to see where

:16:05. > :16:11.there are difficulties and direct police cars to those areas of

:16:12. > :16:15.difficulty, rather than having 30 times two police officers sat there

:16:16. > :16:19.when there isn't much activity. We need to look at how policing is

:16:20. > :16:24.done. I don't know where you have been living or sleeping with crime

:16:25. > :16:32.being cut and going down, I can show you and you can talk to me after, it

:16:33. > :16:36.hasn't. That is in La La Land. Independent analysis on these

:16:37. > :16:40.figures... Carjackings and everything... It is all thrown in,

:16:41. > :16:48.mad. You are sleeping somewhat. This is real, Street talk. -- it is all

:16:49. > :16:52.thrown in, madam. I have one of the largest electorates in the country.

:16:53. > :16:56.People I have represented in the last 12 years, it is one of the

:16:57. > :16:59.largest electorates in mainland Britain, I have my ear to the ground

:17:00. > :17:04.and I can tell you, I speak to police on a regular basis... It is

:17:05. > :17:10.not where I am living. We will have two agree to disagree. Yet, the

:17:11. > :17:18.individuation is there whenever you want to come around. And to you too.

:17:19. > :17:26.Back to your question? With hate crime on the list, what are they

:17:27. > :17:30.doing to tackle the issue? Bob Dhillon, what will you do? What

:17:31. > :17:35.would Ukip do? With hate crime on the rise. We have seen some

:17:36. > :17:41.instances following what happened in Manchester. Mosques being bombed.

:17:42. > :17:53.Ukip are fuelling it. They are fuelling it. APPLAUSE

:17:54. > :17:59.I don't believe so... Paul Nuttall came out the next day saying that he

:18:00. > :18:06.was right about that? His manifesto says that he wants to ban the

:18:07. > :18:14.Bercow. To stop radicalisation, they need to overcome hate crime --

:18:15. > :18:19.burqa. I want to make sure that police crackdown on any hate in any

:18:20. > :18:26.community. Did you agree with your party's policy of banning the burqa?

:18:27. > :18:30.In today's modern society, covering the face is not required. I

:18:31. > :18:36.disagree. Do you really have the right to tell people what to wear?

:18:37. > :18:43.What to tell women to wear? I know there is a security issue but we

:18:44. > :18:48.live in a democracy, or we try to. I feel that politicians are constantly

:18:49. > :18:51.coming to young people and the generation at election time. Where

:18:52. > :18:56.the hell are you for the rest of the year? You come to us at election

:18:57. > :19:01.time when you want our votes. People like us, the undecided voters, you

:19:02. > :19:05.say... This is what we will do for young people... We throw millions of

:19:06. > :19:09.pounds into mental health services, we throw billions of pounds into the

:19:10. > :19:14.NHS. Why do we not see that money in practice, where is it on the ground?

:19:15. > :19:19.On that point you make about the burqa. Leanne Wood's point about it

:19:20. > :19:24.fuelling hate. Do you agree? Completely. I have known young women

:19:25. > :19:27.to be walking down the road with headscarves, and they've had their

:19:28. > :19:32.headscarves ripped off them. 16-year-olds. That is assault. Yes,

:19:33. > :19:36.and a lot of the time people get away with it. These young women are

:19:37. > :19:39.scared to leave their houses and do everyday normal things, and it is

:19:40. > :19:44.unacceptable how people get away with this. I am from Kent. I've been

:19:45. > :19:49.walking down the road and people have accused me... Have you got a

:19:50. > :19:55.bomb in your bag? No. I am having to justify myself to you, as a young

:19:56. > :20:00.Muslim. I had to show my bag and say actually, I have curry in my bag. Do

:20:01. > :20:05.I need to show you that I have food in my bag? What kind of world do we

:20:06. > :20:11.live in? The stories are not rare, whose fault is it? I think some of

:20:12. > :20:17.the language that we have been hearing that the referendum campaign

:20:18. > :20:20.is really fuelling this. Some of the images that the campaign, I know

:20:21. > :20:29.there are different versions of the league campaign, but the one led by

:20:30. > :20:33.my Ukip person here on the left, I'm not quite able to call him a

:20:34. > :20:39.colleague, but the one led by his leader, Nigel Farage, when he stood

:20:40. > :20:45.in front of that revolting poster of desperate Syrian refugees saying,

:20:46. > :20:49.what was it? "Breaking Point". Those images leave a lasting impact and

:20:50. > :20:54.they fuel some of the hate crime that we see. One week after the

:20:55. > :20:58.referendum... Those posters were used in Germany in the 1930s. If you

:20:59. > :21:04.look at the two posters side-by-side they are carbon copies. The

:21:05. > :21:13.evidence, the week after the campaign, recorded hate crime went

:21:14. > :21:19.up 43%. It says it all. Can I bring in Shailesh Vara? When we talk about

:21:20. > :21:29.these issues, it needs to be done so sensibly. What we say has

:21:30. > :21:31.consequences. I voted to remain in the referendum campaign that some of

:21:32. > :21:40.the language used could have been worded differently. And spoken in a

:21:41. > :21:44.more sensitive matter. There was a rise in hate crime and as a society,

:21:45. > :21:48.we need to deal with it. The police forces dealt with them the best they

:21:49. > :21:52.could and it was wonderful to see the British community rally round as

:21:53. > :21:56.well. I also remember at the time that while there was an increase in

:21:57. > :21:58.hate crime, there were millions of people throughout the country who

:21:59. > :22:03.took the view and said actually, I do not like this. In small

:22:04. > :22:05.communities all over the place they were giving comfort to those

:22:06. > :22:11.receiving hate mail through their letterboxes and so on. It was a very

:22:12. > :22:15.sad and regrettable incident in terms of hate crime and it

:22:16. > :22:20.continues, but I am pleased to say the strength of this country is that

:22:21. > :22:25.the majority of people are fair-minded and decent. But that

:22:26. > :22:29.does not help if you are a Muslim attacked in the street? I'm not

:22:30. > :22:38.saying that hate crime does not exist, it does. It is growing. I

:22:39. > :22:41.think, Khalid Mahmood, if Jeremy Corbyn becomes Prime Minister, what

:22:42. > :22:49.is he planning to do to tackle this kind of hate crime? He is planning

:22:50. > :22:55.to introduce 10,000 more police onto the streets of our communities. In

:22:56. > :23:04.terms of having police officers... As an example, I would prefer PCSOs

:23:05. > :23:08.on the ground. I have a fantastic PCSO in my community, Rob, he is

:23:09. > :23:13.fantastic. He goes to people's houses and sees what is going on.

:23:14. > :23:17.Let's not be reacting but be proactive in relation to police.

:23:18. > :23:21.Those cuts have been made, Jeremy Corbyn is going to increase the

:23:22. > :23:26.police forces to do that. Other comments on crime, it is going up.

:23:27. > :23:30.If you look at proper crime figures, in terms of burglary, personal

:23:31. > :23:36.safety, knife crime... It has gone up tremendously because we do not

:23:37. > :23:40.have those people. I live in my constituency, in my street. We see

:23:41. > :23:43.what is going on. I have people from my constituency with issues in

:23:44. > :23:48.relation to this and I speak to the local people every day. That is what

:23:49. > :23:53.is going on. They cannot put up with it. You have an incident and you

:23:54. > :23:57.waited a few hours before police turn up as they don't have

:23:58. > :24:01.resources. We need police back on the streets, not looking at some

:24:02. > :24:06.monitors, or doing an IT job. That is someone else's job. The police

:24:07. > :24:09.need to gain intelligence on the ground to be proactive. One more

:24:10. > :24:21.question, I believe? Bedene? -- . When will the British electorate

:24:22. > :24:27.be ready to vote for an Asian Prime Minister? We thought we would end

:24:28. > :24:33.with a light question! I think the question is simple here. When will

:24:34. > :24:37.the political parties been a -- be in a position to elect a leader who

:24:38. > :24:41.can then be Prime Minister? We don't operate an American system. Until we

:24:42. > :24:44.get the political parties to elect someone as a leader, then they

:24:45. > :24:52.become Prime Minister which is the way forward. The Liberal Democrats,

:24:53. > :25:01.as you know, have nine MPs. Sadly, we lost quite a lot in the previous

:25:02. > :25:05.parliament. Or black. No, we do not have seats like Labour and the

:25:06. > :25:14.Conservatives where you can parachute in Asian candidates, I'm

:25:15. > :25:20.afraid. If we did have an Asian MP, and who is of the right calibre, it

:25:21. > :25:24.is not about tokenism. If they were of the right calibre, then they

:25:25. > :25:29.would surely become Prime Minister. But it would need EU to elect

:25:30. > :25:37.Liberal Democrat MPs. -- but it would need you. Did you comment? The

:25:38. > :25:39.Conservatives had the first Jewish Prime Minister with Benjamin

:25:40. > :25:43.Disraeli, and two women Prime ministers. I am confident the first

:25:44. > :25:48.Asian Prime Minister would be the Conservatives as our -- because of

:25:49. > :25:53.our track record. I would like to say as soon as possible. That is all

:25:54. > :26:00.from us here in Birmingham from the Elgar concert hall with the Asian

:26:01. > :26:05.Network Big Election Debate. One week today the polls open. You are

:26:06. > :26:09.voting for the MPs who represent us in Parliament and the Prime

:26:10. > :26:13.Minister. Apologies to our audience, we could not cover all of your

:26:14. > :26:17.questions. But our politicians will be around a short while C can ask

:26:18. > :26:20.any questions you did not get the chance to. From me, the audience,

:26:21. > :26:21.and our guests,