0:00:02 > 0:00:05This programme contains some strong language.
0:00:05 > 0:00:06Tickel's dead!
0:00:06 > 0:00:10- I need to have the e-mail. - I'll do it.
0:00:10 > 0:00:11Are you for the chop, Mrs Murray?
0:00:11 > 0:00:12Ha-ha(!) Very funny!
0:00:12 > 0:00:16Quiet Batpeople on every fucking paper!
0:00:16 > 0:00:18What are you doing at my computer?!
0:00:18 > 0:00:20I'm bringing down Mannion by leaking an e-mail.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24Mr Tickel's medical records were illegally acquired.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26I have decided to stand down as leader.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28The Guardian have received an e-mail from Fergus
0:00:28 > 0:00:31with all of our comments about Mr Tickel underneath.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33You were supposed to redact it, send the top e-mail,
0:00:33 > 0:00:35not the whole fucking exchange!
0:00:35 > 0:00:37If a government can't leak, do you know what happens?
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Dark shit builds up.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42- What the fuck is going on? - There's going to be an inquiry.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45And then it bursts!
0:00:45 > 0:00:49This is an inquiry into the death of Mr Douglas Tickel,
0:00:49 > 0:00:54and the practice and culture of the dissemination of confidential information
0:00:54 > 0:00:57between political parties and the public media.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59Mr Weir.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01Thank you, Lord Goolding.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Our first witness today is, er, is Mr Stewart Pearson.
0:01:04 > 0:01:05No, it's... It's fine.
0:01:06 > 0:01:10Er, yeah, um, I, Stewart Pearson, do sincerely declare and affirm
0:01:10 > 0:01:13that the evidence I shall give will be the truth, the whole truth,
0:01:13 > 0:01:16and, and nothing but, er, the truth.
0:01:17 > 0:01:22On page 235 of your witness statement,
0:01:22 > 0:01:27you describe yourself as the, the human router in government.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29Can you, er, can you explain what you meant by that?
0:01:29 > 0:01:33Um, I'm a-a router
0:01:33 > 0:01:37in the sense that I control the governmental, informational
0:01:37 > 0:01:39ingestion and egestion process.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Mr Pearson just to clarify -
0:01:41 > 0:01:45your job is to make sure that the public perception
0:01:45 > 0:01:48of your government's programme is a positive one. Is that fair?
0:01:48 > 0:01:50It's not about perception. Yeah?
0:01:50 > 0:01:53I believe in government as a transceiver, hm?
0:01:53 > 0:01:54Transceiver.
0:01:54 > 0:01:59Yeah, it's really important, sure, to give out a strong signal,
0:01:59 > 0:02:01but to be effective, you've got to listen for an echo.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04Could you possibly speak in plain English?
0:02:04 > 0:02:06I'm sorry, I-I thought I was.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11So what IS clear is that you are an important man, Mr Pearson.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15I'm just a lad from Leeds with a lust for life, yeah?
0:02:15 > 0:02:19There's an African proverb that's stuck with me, yeah?
0:02:19 > 0:02:22"If you think you're too small to make a difference,
0:02:22 > 0:02:24"you've never spent a night with a mosquito."
0:02:24 > 0:02:27So...part of your job...
0:02:27 > 0:02:32is to make sure that the government's message gets across clearly?
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Is that right?
0:02:35 > 0:02:36That's correct.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40And despite the sarcasm marinating that question, I'm very successful in that endeavour.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44No, there was no sarcasm intended at all, Mr Pearson.
0:02:44 > 0:02:48Sorry, I must have misread your...face.
0:02:48 > 0:02:51Does your job intrude on your home life?
0:02:51 > 0:02:52No.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55No, when I close the front door, I...
0:02:55 > 0:02:56I'm no longer Stewart Pearson.
0:02:56 > 0:02:58When you, when you...
0:02:58 > 0:03:01I mean, when I...when I close it from the...from the inside.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04You know, when I close it from the outside then I...
0:03:04 > 0:03:06then I very much AM Stewart Pearson.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09So who are you at home?
0:03:09 > 0:03:11Er, I'm a husband,
0:03:11 > 0:03:14I'm a...pardon me, a lover,
0:03:14 > 0:03:17I'm a carpenter, I'm a cook, I'm a flautist.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19- A-a..?- A flautist.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22- Right.- I play the flute.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24And I dabble on the Irish bodhran.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30Erm, and would you like to express any remorse for Mr Tickel's death?
0:03:30 > 0:03:32What would you like to say to his family?
0:03:32 > 0:03:36Er, I would like to offer them maximum respect, you know?
0:03:36 > 0:03:38And maximum remorse.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42And maximum assurance that Mr Tickel did not die in vain.
0:03:42 > 0:03:43We're here. You know?
0:03:43 > 0:03:48How can we make the government and the media inclusive without being intrusive? Yeah...
0:03:48 > 0:03:50And if we can answer that,
0:03:50 > 0:03:53at least we can make sure there are no more Mr Tickels.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56I mean that...I mean that not in the sense of, you know,
0:03:56 > 0:03:58wiping out the Tickel family name.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02I mean it in the sense that nothing like this will ever happen again.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04- Hello, Mr Pearson.- Hi.
0:04:04 > 0:04:08Tab 28 in your bundle there, page 263...
0:04:10 > 0:04:14..a paper that you presented in 2006, The Iconography of Consensus.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17Would you care to summarise the argument you present there?
0:04:17 > 0:04:23- Sure, yeah, the main thrust... - Bearing in mind Lord Goolding's desire for plainness and clarity.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25Right. OK.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27Er, I hypothesise that...
0:04:29 > 0:04:30Sorry.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32I say...
0:04:33 > 0:04:36..that the design structure for a parliamentary democracy
0:04:36 > 0:04:38should be that of the Pompidou Centre.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42Morally and structurally explicit and open,
0:04:42 > 0:04:44a porous membrane.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47Maybe just a little bit plainer, Mr Pearson.
0:04:50 > 0:04:51People...
0:04:51 > 0:04:53should know, er...
0:04:54 > 0:04:56..what politicians are doing.
0:04:56 > 0:04:57Brilliant.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59Thanks.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02Government should be porous?
0:05:02 > 0:05:03- Yes.- But not leaking?
0:05:03 > 0:05:07Come on. If someone is determined to leak information,
0:05:07 > 0:05:09there's nothing that anyone can do about that.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12So as Director of Communications,
0:05:12 > 0:05:15you are unable to prevent sensitive material
0:05:15 > 0:05:17being communicated to journalists?
0:05:17 > 0:05:22If someone chokes on a packet of crisps, do you issue an arrest warrant for Gary Lineker?
0:05:22 > 0:05:24Is it fair to say that you have in fact changed nothing,
0:05:24 > 0:05:29and government communications carries on exactly as they did before, by leaks and whispers?
0:05:29 > 0:05:31No, it is not fair to say that.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34In fact, as you disapprove and condemn these practices,
0:05:34 > 0:05:37are they not more covert and more hidden and more secret than ever before?
0:05:37 > 0:05:40I think that is also an unreasonable assertion.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43In spite of your desire to create a political Pompidou Centre,
0:05:43 > 0:05:46haven't you created the opposite, Centrepoint?
0:05:46 > 0:05:50Everybody sees it looming over them, but nobody has any idea what happens inside.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53I think there's some kind of club on the top floor.
0:05:53 > 0:05:58So, Mr Pearson, have you identified the source of the leak...
0:05:58 > 0:06:00- No.- ..of Mr Tickel's records?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03- No.- Have you ever leaked yourself?
0:06:03 > 0:06:05No.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08No, I was, I was over that pre-Britpop.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11Do you have any idea where the leak might have come from?
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Well, you know, if this was CSI Miami,
0:06:14 > 0:06:18I guess we'd be looking for the person who had the most to gain from the leak being made public.
0:06:18 > 0:06:22Well, er, despite your shirt, this ISN'T CSI Miami.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26Who do you think would benefit most from the leak?
0:06:26 > 0:06:31Well, I guess I'd be sending David Caruso knocking on the door of Mr Malcolm Tucker.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35Can I ask you, how would you describe yourself?
0:06:35 > 0:06:38Er, I'm a media strategist.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41So you would be Stewart Pearson's opposite number?
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Er, well, I'd be Stewart Pearson's opposite
0:06:44 > 0:06:46in every possible way, I think.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50- TITTERING - You have a lot of control and power over your party, don't you?
0:06:50 > 0:06:52Ah-ha!
0:06:52 > 0:06:54I wish, yes! Um, no.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57I think that that's been overstated.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59So this reputation you have as an enforcer,
0:06:59 > 0:07:02that's completely misrepresenting you, is it?
0:07:02 > 0:07:05It's baloney. Politicians who have to do things that they don't want to do,
0:07:05 > 0:07:07such as resign...
0:07:07 > 0:07:11er, because they've been caught with their fingers in the till, or, you know,
0:07:11 > 0:07:13with their knickers up a flagpole or whatever, they...
0:07:13 > 0:07:16sometimes it's very convenient for them to have a bogeyman.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20"Malcolm made me do it." Well, I didn't make them do it.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24These are people who just find themselves stuck in a room with one exit,
0:07:24 > 0:07:26and I simply show them the door.
0:07:26 > 0:07:28I've highlighted some quotes.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30The Guardian.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34"Malcolm Tucker has the physical demeanour and the political instincts
0:07:34 > 0:07:35"of a velociraptor."
0:07:35 > 0:07:38Yes, The Guardian, the newspaper that hates newspapers.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40- Telegraph...- The Telegr-arse.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44"Tucker's writ runs through the lifeblood of Westminster
0:07:44 > 0:07:49"like raw alcohol, at once cleansing and corroding."
0:07:49 > 0:07:50The Times.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52"If you make eye contact with Malcolm Tucker,
0:07:52 > 0:07:54"you have spilled his pint."
0:07:54 > 0:07:57The Spectator. "Iago with a BlackBerry."
0:07:57 > 0:08:00I mean, you're saying these quotes are, what, misguided?
0:08:00 > 0:08:02The Spectator...! Um...
0:08:02 > 0:08:06No, I'm saying you're taking these out of context, you're not contextualising these.
0:08:06 > 0:08:10If you were to put them into a perspective, if you were to place them into the landscape,
0:08:10 > 0:08:14you would see that there might be a lot of axes being ground here.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18I don't see the difference between what you have just done and a leak, by the way.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21The difference is that what I've just read out was not obtained illegally.
0:08:21 > 0:08:22How do you know that?
0:08:22 > 0:08:25You don't know what confidences have been breached
0:08:25 > 0:08:28in order to form these opinions, for that is what they are.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34So, you accept leaking as part and parcel of the political media machinery?
0:08:34 > 0:08:36Yes, I mean if you didn't have leaking,
0:08:36 > 0:08:40the newspapers would just be full of long-lense bikini shots,
0:08:40 > 0:08:44and adverts for sheds, and offers to buy three pairs of trousers for a tenner, etcetera.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48It's just... It's the way it is. Big deal, no-one dies.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51One person did die, Mr Tucker.
0:08:53 > 0:08:58- Would you tell us how it works? - You know, you do me a favour, I do you a favour. Yeah?
0:08:58 > 0:09:00And what might you expect in return?
0:09:00 > 0:09:01- Anything.- What?
0:09:01 > 0:09:03Well, a Kit-Kat, you might get.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07I've had a Kit-Kat, I've had, er, a-a big meal.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09Could you give us an example?
0:09:09 > 0:09:12Um... Well, yes.
0:09:13 > 0:09:14I...
0:09:14 > 0:09:15This is The Daily Mirror,
0:09:15 > 0:09:19and I could get drummed out of the Magic Circle for showing you this.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22Anyway, this is The Daily Mirror...
0:09:22 > 0:09:26about the Quiet Batpeople, er, policy of Mrs Nicola Murray.
0:09:26 > 0:09:30I was there that day. You can't see me cos I've been cropped out here,
0:09:30 > 0:09:34but this information here, I made sure that those notes were in that place,
0:09:34 > 0:09:38that they were available, and that the picture editor knew where to find them.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42Sorry, I'm just trying to... trying to get this clear.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46Was Mrs Murray not the subject of huge derision as a result of this?
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Er, no she was a subject of huge derision before this.
0:09:49 > 0:09:51LAUGHTER
0:09:51 > 0:09:52But it was...
0:09:52 > 0:09:56You were, you were trying to undermine the leader of your party?
0:09:56 > 0:09:57I was...
0:09:57 > 0:10:00Would you say you were a loyal man, Mr Tucker?
0:10:00 > 0:10:03I'm loyal, yes. I'm loyal to my party
0:10:03 > 0:10:07and I feel that Mrs Murray's policies were turning the party into...
0:10:07 > 0:10:12I don't know if you've seen those calendars with pictures of dogs that are dressed up in...
0:10:12 > 0:10:14They've got little dresses and hats on?
0:10:14 > 0:10:18She was turning my party into that, she was humiliating my party,
0:10:18 > 0:10:21so I thought it was absolutely vital
0:10:21 > 0:10:24to focus the public's attention onto that.
0:10:24 > 0:10:28And yet you maintain that you had great, I don't know, what, respect for Mrs Murray as a person.
0:10:28 > 0:10:32Yeah. Yes. She was a great laugh occasionally. Great dancer.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35She's got terrific...hair. LAUGHTER
0:10:35 > 0:10:37She did a good job at DoSAC.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41A much better job than her successor, who, let's not forget,
0:10:41 > 0:10:45was playing on a slide when the news of Mr Tickel's death came out.
0:10:45 > 0:10:50Thank you, Mr Tucker, we're well versed in the events surrounding the death of Mr Tickel.
0:10:50 > 0:10:51So tell me,
0:10:51 > 0:10:57the PFI e-mail that led to the...to the resignation of Nicola Murray.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00Did you... Did you engineer that?
0:11:03 > 0:11:05- Mr Tucker?- No. No.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08No, I didn't.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11And, er, the leaking of Mr Tickel's health records?
0:11:11 > 0:11:13I mean, do I detect your hand in that, for instance?
0:11:13 > 0:11:15No. No, no, no, no, no.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17Look, politics is a war, and politicians,
0:11:17 > 0:11:19sometimes they lose ideological limbs. Right?
0:11:19 > 0:11:21They get media shrapnel right in the face.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24Sometimes they get a bullet right in the brain.
0:11:24 > 0:11:30Civilians know there is no way that I would ever attack a civilian,
0:11:30 > 0:11:32a real person, and especially not somebody
0:11:32 > 0:11:34with a history of mental illness.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36Because that sort of thing...
0:11:36 > 0:11:39makes me queasy.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42So you're an ethical...leaker?
0:11:42 > 0:11:46I use leaking to show up corruption, to show up hypocrisy,
0:11:46 > 0:11:48to show up idiocy.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52And also the fourth horseman of the political apocalypse, duplicity.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54For instance, Fergus Williams...
0:11:54 > 0:11:57- He's coming up next, right? - Mm-hmm.
0:11:57 > 0:12:01This is a guy, he's a member of the junior party in this coalition, right?
0:12:01 > 0:12:04This guy has already opened a private channel to Dan Miller,
0:12:04 > 0:12:06the Leader of the Opposition,
0:12:06 > 0:12:10in order to talk about possibly setting up a coalition with him,
0:12:10 > 0:12:14because he knows very well that this coalition government that he is lumbered with
0:12:14 > 0:12:17is being torn to pieces, like a bread stick at a picnic.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20Mr Tucker, you have just used this inquiry
0:12:20 > 0:12:22to commit a leak in front of us!
0:12:22 > 0:12:27I've not committed a leak! Everybody in Westminster knows these talks have taken place. Everyone.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30You're supposed to be investigating this, discovering this stuff.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34Now, you cannot not know what I or anyone else tell you. Right?
0:12:34 > 0:12:37You can't not know that. You cannot not know what you now know.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Mr Tucker, are you familiar with the rules of association football?
0:12:40 > 0:12:44I understand if you're going to have an affair you'd better take precautions,
0:12:44 > 0:12:48- like getting a superinjunction. - I ask you because this is me giving you a yellow card.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52You're not to use this inquiry to score political points.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54Sorry, I'm...I apologise.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57Did you see Mr Malcolm Tucker's evidence earlier?
0:12:57 > 0:13:02Er, yeah, I, er, saw it out of the corner of my eye.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06- Do you want me to read what he said about you?- No, that's fine. That was the bit that I saw.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09- Embarrassing, I imagine. - Er, no, not at all.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12Er, it was, er...almost flattering, yeah,
0:13:12 > 0:13:14to get, er, to get Tuckered.
0:13:14 > 0:13:16It's a right of passage in...in...in politics.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18It happens to all of us, it's...
0:13:18 > 0:13:21You know, it's like when you're in a Russian jail, you get your face tattooed.
0:13:21 > 0:13:26Mr Tucker mentioned meetings between you and the Leader of the Opposition.
0:13:26 > 0:13:27Did these take place?
0:13:29 > 0:13:33They did, yes. Er, myself and Adam
0:13:33 > 0:13:36were part of a team who had very general, non-committal discussions
0:13:36 > 0:13:38with, amongst others... Mr Miller.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42And you discussed a potential future coalition with his party
0:13:42 > 0:13:45and the removal of your own party leader, is that correct?
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Sorry, could I... possibly answer that question with another question?
0:13:49 > 0:13:52I mean, not THAT question I'm just asking but a further question.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54Go on.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57You do realise that YOU'RE being spun here? You do see that?
0:13:57 > 0:13:59- Spun?- Cos, you know... - LAUGHS NERVOUSLY
0:13:59 > 0:14:02Malcolm Tucker's not your common or garden spin...doctor, right?
0:14:02 > 0:14:05No, he's the, he's the chief medical officer of spin.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08He is Spinoza, you see, so he'd... He had...
0:14:08 > 0:14:11He didn't come here in order to answer your questions,
0:14:11 > 0:14:14he came here in order to get you to then ask HIS questions...
0:14:14 > 0:14:19Mr Williams, I don't want you to answer with another question, I want you to answer it with an answer.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21He's conducting you like, um...
0:14:23 > 0:14:24..Goldie.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27Did you talk to Mr Miller about removing your party leader?
0:14:27 > 0:14:31Sorry, are you getting Tucker's questions sort of beamed straight into your brain?
0:14:31 > 0:14:33Mr Williams.
0:14:33 > 0:14:37Finally, on the subject of frustration,
0:14:37 > 0:14:42would you say it's difficult to steer policy ideas through your department?
0:14:42 > 0:14:43Huh...
0:14:44 > 0:14:46Er, yes, there are...
0:14:47 > 0:14:50..blockages. There is one person in particular,
0:14:50 > 0:14:53and, well, you know, I don't want to identify her...or him,
0:14:53 > 0:14:56if she was a man, but this particular person, er...
0:14:56 > 0:14:59is...er, rather inept,
0:14:59 > 0:15:01and has hampered a lot of our initiatives,
0:15:01 > 0:15:05and she, or her-him, is, um...
0:15:06 > 0:15:08..very difficult to remove.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10And so she's a... He is a...
0:15:10 > 0:15:14They are a stubborn blockage, shall we say,
0:15:14 > 0:15:19like, you know, when you get hair and, um, soap in a plughole,
0:15:19 > 0:15:21with...skin flakes.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24Thank you. Thank you, Mr Williams. That's, that's fine.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27- Sorry, can I just say... - We are very pressed for time.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30Yeah, but I really didn't want the last thing that I said, erm...
0:15:30 > 0:15:33- I'm sorry.- ..to be skin flakes. - Thank you.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36When did you first become aware of Mr Tickel?
0:15:36 > 0:15:40When he became the only, erm, key worker
0:15:40 > 0:15:44to refuse our offer of alternative accommodation.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47Then he sort of dropped off my radar.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50The next thing I knew, he was sewing badges on his tent
0:15:50 > 0:15:53and shouting abuse through a loudhailer.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56Did you ever feel yourself to be culpable in any way for his...
0:15:56 > 0:15:58for his homelessness?
0:15:58 > 0:16:02Look, he was homeless only in the sense that he had no home. Er...
0:16:02 > 0:16:04LAUGHTER
0:16:04 > 0:16:09No, no, a housing association flat was found, which he declined.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11The POLICY didn't make him homeless.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15The policy of selling off the block of flats where he lived.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18He made a positive decision to be homeless.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22It's the difference between being punched in the face and punching yourself in the face.
0:16:22 > 0:16:24SNIGGERING
0:16:24 > 0:16:25Um...
0:16:25 > 0:16:27Well, and why do you think, to use your phrase,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30he punched himself in the face?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33Why? Well, because he was mentally, er, er...
0:16:33 > 0:16:36Because he...he had, er...
0:16:36 > 0:16:37mental issues.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40The e-mail leaked to The Guardian,
0:16:40 > 0:16:44which you'll find on pages 276 to 277 in the evidence,
0:16:44 > 0:16:49one of your advisers describes Mr Tickel as...
0:16:49 > 0:16:51erm, "fucking Florence Shiteingale".
0:16:51 > 0:16:54Do you not feel that's, er, a little callous?
0:16:54 > 0:16:58This is, this is rough and tumble office banter,
0:16:58 > 0:17:02schoolboy showers stuff, and schoolgirls' showers, er...
0:17:02 > 0:17:05Not that... I mean, not, not literally, but, er...
0:17:06 > 0:17:10Are you familiar with the phrase "data smuggling"?
0:17:10 > 0:17:11Data...what?
0:17:11 > 0:17:16Passing on data from a closed system to an unauthorised source in exchange for money.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19Oh, yes, I...I... Well, seems everyone's at it.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22A...are you at it, Mr Mannion?
0:17:22 > 0:17:25No, I'm...I'm...I'm not very good with technology.
0:17:25 > 0:17:30The Papermate pen is still cutting-edge technology as far as I'm concerned.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33Writes upside-down, you know!
0:17:33 > 0:17:37You've told the enquiry that you didn't feel at all guilty
0:17:37 > 0:17:39over Mr Tickel's death.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43Well, I...I felt bad. B...but not guilty.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45I didn't kill him, I've never killed anyone.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48Noted, but I mean, do you think you could've made a difference
0:17:48 > 0:17:51- if you had been contactable that day?- Why?
0:17:51 > 0:17:55He wasn't trying to call me. I...I'm not The Samaritans.
0:17:55 > 0:17:56In fact,
0:17:56 > 0:18:01apparently, tonally, I have a very depressing voice.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04Mr Mannion, do you know Mr Alastair Leyton,
0:18:04 > 0:18:06a senior executive at The Times?
0:18:08 > 0:18:09Yes.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11Did you ring Mr Leyton on 25th April
0:18:11 > 0:18:16to tell him that Mr Tickel's medical records had been unlawfully obtained
0:18:16 > 0:18:19and that this might form the basis of an explosive news story?
0:18:19 > 0:18:22Did I, er, ring him on that day, do you mean?
0:18:22 > 0:18:24I, well, I can't remember.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Well, did you ring him on any day telling him?
0:18:27 > 0:18:30Look, I came into politics to make a difference,
0:18:30 > 0:18:32t...to dare, to get things done,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35n...not to leak things,
0:18:35 > 0:18:38or...or spin, or...or blag,
0:18:38 > 0:18:40or...smuggle,
0:18:40 > 0:18:43but to serve, with honest, hard work.
0:18:43 > 0:18:44To do.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48And did you DO something? Did you contact your friend at The Times?
0:18:49 > 0:18:51No, I...I didn't do that.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55Perhaps we could start by just giving us an idea
0:18:55 > 0:18:58of what a... You know, what a special adviser does?
0:19:00 > 0:19:02Um, er...
0:19:02 > 0:19:06Well, technically, essentially, we just advise a minister.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10Erm, sort of, media strategies, political strategies...
0:19:10 > 0:19:11that sort of thing.
0:19:11 > 0:19:15But you're not permanent members of the Civil Service?
0:19:15 > 0:19:18Er, no, they're like the... the worker ants.
0:19:18 > 0:19:20We're more like... Er, well, not the queens.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24That would be, er, Peter Mannion and to a lesser extent Fergus Williams.
0:19:24 > 0:19:29We're more like the solider ants that defend the queens.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Would you like to add anything, Mr Kenyon?
0:19:32 > 0:19:36Yes, I'm not sure that the ant analogy helps...
0:19:36 > 0:19:37at all.
0:19:38 > 0:19:44Mr Smith, how would you characterise your relationship with Mr Kenyon?
0:19:45 > 0:19:50Er, well, I... I...I think when you get two silverbacks like Adam and I in a room,
0:19:50 > 0:19:54there's always going to be a certain amount of chest-beating, but, erm...
0:19:54 > 0:19:55there's a mutual respect.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57Would you agree, Mr Kenyon?
0:19:59 > 0:20:00Yes.
0:20:02 > 0:20:03What about data smuggling?
0:20:03 > 0:20:06I...is that something that you were aware of?
0:20:06 > 0:20:09Yeah, I mean of...of course I was aware of it. I think we all were...
0:20:09 > 0:20:11- Absolutely.- Yeah.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14..but I would say, I would say it was, er, it was endemic, it happens every time.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16- Endemic? - It's commonplace.
0:20:16 > 0:20:20Hospitals, er, anywhere with public information.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23GPs, passport offices, you know, you name it,
0:20:23 > 0:20:26they've all been known to slip information for money.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29Do any of you know of specific individuals
0:20:29 > 0:20:33who will offer this... this information trade?
0:20:33 > 0:20:34- No.- I don't, no.- No.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37Right, so just to clarify, you say that it's endemic...
0:20:37 > 0:20:39Rife, absolutely.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42..but you don't know anyone who actually does it?
0:20:42 > 0:20:43- No.- No.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45No, I mean, I could if I needed to. I...
0:20:45 > 0:20:47have a very wide web of contacts.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49Right, but it's not contacts...
0:20:49 > 0:20:52- not contacts that you use?- Er, no.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55My position is, if you leak, you're weak.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58If I'm going to come at you, I'm going to come at you head on...
0:20:58 > 0:20:59man-on-man.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02That's how I like it... Er, politically speaking.
0:21:03 > 0:21:08You yourselves were subject to a leak, weren't you, in The Guardian?
0:21:08 > 0:21:12How did you feel about the e-mail containing your thoughts
0:21:12 > 0:21:15about Mr Tickel's death?
0:21:15 > 0:21:19Um, it was, it was shameful and it was insensitive...
0:21:19 > 0:21:22- Absolutely.- ..and we would like to apologise for that.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24- It's, it's dreadful.- I agree.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29I mean, their comments were absolutely unforgivable, mortifying.
0:21:29 > 0:21:34"How many Mr Tickels does it take to change a lightbulb?"
0:21:34 > 0:21:37"He doesn't have a lightbulb, he's in a tent."
0:21:37 > 0:21:38Mmm...
0:21:38 > 0:21:41"How do you turn Mr Tickel into Mr Happy?"
0:21:41 > 0:21:43"Lithium."
0:21:43 > 0:21:46"What's the difference between Mr Tickel and Captain Oates?"
0:21:46 > 0:21:49"Captain Oates has a less stupid name."
0:21:49 > 0:21:53And one feel that is particularly cruel, Ms Messinger,
0:21:53 > 0:21:55- given...- Mmm.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58..Mr Tickel's mental health, erm, issues.
0:21:58 > 0:22:00"The fucker's a nutbag."
0:22:00 > 0:22:02I'm s...sor... I...I...I...
0:22:02 > 0:22:04It... That is not OK.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06Sorry.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09If I could add a...a...a... a mea culpa here,
0:22:09 > 0:22:11rather than-than dancing around it.
0:22:11 > 0:22:16Others may choose to attempt to wriggle off the hook of, er, shame,
0:22:16 > 0:22:18but, um, I cannot.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21I cannot deny that my name is on those e-mails,
0:22:21 > 0:22:23and yet I do not recognise that man.
0:22:23 > 0:22:28It is me and yet it is another, and for that I am, um, truly sorry.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31This has been a humbling moment in my quest
0:22:31 > 0:22:34to become the man I know I can be.
0:22:36 > 0:22:41How did you react to the news of Mr Tickel's death?
0:22:41 > 0:22:44- Shock. Absolute shock. - Fell to pieces.- Devastation.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47Awful, I mean we couldn't believe it, it was...tragic...
0:22:47 > 0:22:49Can I just refer you to Dr Tara Strachan,
0:22:49 > 0:22:53who I believe was in your department for a meeting at that time,
0:22:53 > 0:22:57and she described the atmosphere in the office
0:22:57 > 0:22:59as an atmosphere of elation,
0:22:59 > 0:23:03and you, Mr Smith, were seen to be punching the air.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05Do you remember doing that?
0:23:05 > 0:23:07I, er... I do not remember to that.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11S... Well, if you weren't punching the air, do you remember what you were doing?
0:23:12 > 0:23:15I...I cannot say to that.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18Is it fair to say that information coming in and out of DoSAC is...
0:23:18 > 0:23:20sticky, for want of a better word?
0:23:20 > 0:23:24Yes. I would certainly agree with that...to that.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27If I...if I may speak freely at this point,
0:23:27 > 0:23:32I...I think the reason for a lot of leaks coming out of DoSAC is that
0:23:32 > 0:23:35it's very hard to get information out of the official channels.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38- There's a kind of blockage, is there?- Exactly that.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42Um, and an information blockage. Er, and it...and it...
0:23:42 > 0:23:44and it has to find its way out through other...routes.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48No, it is actually Terri Coverley, um...
0:23:48 > 0:23:51who is Head of Press, in name only.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54- Good, yes. It's Terri, definitely. - Yep.
0:23:55 > 0:24:00I, Teresa Jessica Coverley, do sincerely declare and affirm
0:24:00 > 0:24:03that the evidence I shall give will be the truth,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09- Please be seated, Mrs Coverley. - Thank you very much.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10Mr Hodge has some questions.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13Very good to see you this morning, infamous Terri Coverley.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15SHE LAUGHS DARKLY
0:24:15 > 0:24:17- Why are you smiling? - I'm not smiling.
0:24:18 > 0:24:22Yeah, or rather I'm smiling, but it's something I do when I'm nervous, erm...
0:24:22 > 0:24:25- And you have a guilty conscience? - No, no. No, no.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28No, I don't have a guilty conscience but I do have a guilty face.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30Um, I...I...
0:24:30 > 0:24:34I do blush a lot and that's a circulation thing, not a moral thing,
0:24:34 > 0:24:36though I do ACT guilty, um...
0:24:37 > 0:24:40When I was a child, um...
0:24:40 > 0:24:44my brother's hamster was put into a remote control...aeroplane.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47Tragic consequences, and, um... unfortunately I was blamed for that,
0:24:47 > 0:24:51though I had nothing to do with it. It was...it was that I just looked guilty,
0:24:51 > 0:24:53so I would ask you... to bear that in mind.
0:24:53 > 0:24:58Can you explain to us how communications works in government?
0:24:58 > 0:25:00Well, um, I use an analogy.
0:25:00 > 0:25:02Erm...
0:25:02 > 0:25:04I like to think that dealing with the press
0:25:04 > 0:25:08is not so much herding cats, it's more herding sheep,
0:25:08 > 0:25:13and I am the shepherdess, um...if you like.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16It's, it's... In order to be an efficient shepherdess,
0:25:16 > 0:25:19one needs a number of things, I mean...
0:25:20 > 0:25:24Firstly, one needs a whistle, that's my voice.
0:25:24 > 0:25:28Secondly, one needs a coat, and that's my coat.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30And thirdly, one needs a dog,
0:25:30 > 0:25:33and that, in my case, is a lady called Robyn.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36How was your relationship with Nicola Murray?
0:25:36 > 0:25:38Professionally or personally?
0:25:38 > 0:25:40- Professionally.- Not good.
0:25:42 > 0:25:43And personally?
0:25:43 > 0:25:47Not good. No, I mean she resented me, she was jealous of me, I think.
0:25:47 > 0:25:48I mean, a lot of women are.
0:25:48 > 0:25:53It's no secret that... Well, she's a woman who has issues, er...
0:25:53 > 0:25:55Major issues.
0:25:55 > 0:26:00I felt... If you want me to be truthful, I felt very sorry for her.
0:26:00 > 0:26:02And your relationship with Peter Mannion?
0:26:02 > 0:26:04Oh...
0:26:04 > 0:26:06Yeah, very, very, very good.
0:26:06 > 0:26:10Um, yes. Both professionally and personally.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14Although of course, I... I draw a...you know, between the two.
0:26:14 > 0:26:20But he's a lovely man to...work with, to be...to be with,
0:26:20 > 0:26:23to be close to, and...
0:26:23 > 0:26:26Several others have referred to you as a blockage.
0:26:26 > 0:26:27Perhaps they meant...
0:26:27 > 0:26:29"buffer".
0:26:30 > 0:26:34Because I am a buffer between their heads...
0:26:34 > 0:26:37and things that want to hurt their heads.
0:26:37 > 0:26:38Who, in your opinion,
0:26:38 > 0:26:42was responsible for the PFI e-mail being leaked?
0:26:42 > 0:26:44Well, it's not for me to say,
0:26:44 > 0:26:48and I don't want to be accused of telling tales before school...
0:26:48 > 0:26:50But I think it was Malcolm Tucker.
0:26:50 > 0:26:52- Why do you think that?- Erm...
0:26:52 > 0:26:54Feminine intuition.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56Feel it in my water.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58Any reasons beyond your bladder?
0:26:58 > 0:27:03Well, Malcolm can be very, very tough. I mean, that's no secret.
0:27:03 > 0:27:04Can you give me an example?
0:27:04 > 0:27:07Well, he can send very forthright texts.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09Would you say he was bullying?
0:27:09 > 0:27:11Well, I can look after myself.
0:27:11 > 0:27:15I mean, I wasn't bullied at school. I was very popular.
0:27:15 > 0:27:19But if you were somebody w...who... who had been bullied at school,
0:27:19 > 0:27:22somebody who was weak or not popular,
0:27:22 > 0:27:26someone like Robyn, for example, yes, I think Malcolm Tucker
0:27:26 > 0:27:29would be very, very intimidating indeed, yes...
0:27:29 > 0:27:31You're happy to go on record saying Malcolm was a bully?
0:27:33 > 0:27:36- Um...- Malcolm is a bully?
0:27:37 > 0:27:38Mmm...
0:27:38 > 0:27:39We'll need a yes or a no.
0:27:41 > 0:27:43Well, yes, then. Yes.
0:27:43 > 0:27:47Mr Tucker is in next. I can't imagine he'll be very happy about that.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49No, he won't. No, he won't.
0:27:49 > 0:27:53(Right...) Well, I think we can leave it there, Mrs Coverley.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56Oh, good. Sorry, I mean, thank you.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58Thank you, thank you very much...
0:27:59 > 0:28:01..Your Lordship.
0:28:01 > 0:28:03We may need to call you back,
0:28:03 > 0:28:06as I feel there are some issues that still need clarification.
0:28:06 > 0:28:08Very good, yes, of course.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11Thank you for agreeing to return to us at such short notice, Mr Tucker.
0:28:11 > 0:28:15It's no problem. You only appear in front of the Goolding Inquiry twice,
0:28:15 > 0:28:17- once on the way up and once on the way down.- Let's hope not.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20Glad to see you again, Mr Tucker.
0:28:20 > 0:28:22Nice to be here.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25Did you watch the evidence given by Terri Coverley?
0:28:25 > 0:28:29Yes. And I found her quite funny, without resulting to vulgarity.
0:28:29 > 0:28:34She was very clear that she regarded you as a bully,
0:28:34 > 0:28:36something you denied in your first testimony.
0:28:36 > 0:28:37How do you respond to that?
0:28:37 > 0:28:41Um, well, I respond thusly. That's slander.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45We're trying to clarify the culture of communications
0:28:45 > 0:28:46over which you presided.
0:28:46 > 0:28:49And we have a contradiction between participants.
0:28:49 > 0:28:53Well, I would say that I'm someone who lives and breathes communication,
0:28:53 > 0:28:57so I would lend more weight to my words,
0:28:57 > 0:29:00rather than to someone who is just in it for the pension.
0:29:00 > 0:29:03And how is that not slander?
0:29:03 > 0:29:05Well, because that's true.
0:29:05 > 0:29:09She wants a pension more than Richard Hammond wants a punch in the face.
0:29:09 > 0:29:11You know, she sat here for an hour.
0:29:11 > 0:29:16You can't have looked at her and thought this was not a person who isn't mentally unrobust?
0:29:17 > 0:29:21I'd like to return to the Batpeople photograph, if I may.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24Why not? Yes, one of my triumphs.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27You said you were cropped out of the original photo.
0:29:27 > 0:29:28Sadly, yes.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31But they have enlarged. Can we show the enlargement?
0:29:31 > 0:29:34They've enlarged that photograph for us.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37Now, could we go to the close-up of the folders
0:29:37 > 0:29:39that you're carrying...
0:29:40 > 0:29:42..in that photograph, there we are.
0:29:42 > 0:29:44- Who enlarged this?- Er...
0:29:44 > 0:29:46- Was it The Guardian that did this for you?- I believe so...
0:29:46 > 0:29:50I didn't know they were offering that service. They should do passport photos.
0:29:50 > 0:29:53- Thank you.- They'd double their revenue if they did passport photos a couple of times.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56This is the folder that you are carrying in your hand,
0:29:56 > 0:29:59and you see there there's a document poking up out of the top,
0:29:59 > 0:30:01on the notepad.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05Um, there's a series of numbers written across the top there.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08Would you be able to tell us what the first two numbers are?
0:30:08 > 0:30:10I don't... Well, they look like telephone numbers, I don't know.
0:30:10 > 0:30:14Yes, they are Mr Tickel's mobile phone number
0:30:14 > 0:30:16and his ex-wife's landline number.
0:30:17 > 0:30:18Yeah.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23Well, there's nothing untoward about me having those.
0:30:23 > 0:30:27Well, actually Mrs Tickel's phone number was ex-directory.
0:30:27 > 0:30:29But let's just leave that to one side for a moment.
0:30:29 > 0:30:30Very wise.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33The bottom set of numbers.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35Do you have any recollection as to what they might be?
0:30:35 > 0:30:36No.
0:30:38 > 0:30:39Really? You didn't even look.
0:30:41 > 0:30:42Where are we going with this?
0:30:44 > 0:30:47They are Mr Tickel's NHS number
0:30:47 > 0:30:50and his National Insurance number.
0:30:52 > 0:30:53Mr Tucker.
0:30:53 > 0:30:54Ffff...
0:30:57 > 0:30:59So why would you have that?
0:31:08 > 0:31:10I don't, I don't recall...
0:31:11 > 0:31:13Sorry, can I just clarify that?
0:31:13 > 0:31:16Are you saying you don't recall having them,
0:31:16 > 0:31:18or you don't recall how you obtained them?
0:31:18 > 0:31:19Um...
0:31:22 > 0:31:26I don't... recall having them!
0:31:28 > 0:31:32But it... It appears to me that you have been rather careless
0:31:32 > 0:31:33in this instance, Mr Tucker.
0:31:33 > 0:31:35Not at all.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39No? You were photographed with these papers,
0:31:39 > 0:31:43you flaunted your ruse to puff yourself up,
0:31:43 > 0:31:46thereby drawing attention to this photograph,
0:31:46 > 0:31:48this photograph which is now implicating you
0:31:48 > 0:31:50in a rather troubling way.
0:31:53 > 0:31:55Sorry, I didn't hear a question there.
0:31:55 > 0:31:56Is there a question here?
0:31:56 > 0:31:57It was an observation, Mr Tucker.
0:31:57 > 0:31:59It's an observation,
0:31:59 > 0:32:02so what are we, is this an inquiry or an observatory?
0:32:02 > 0:32:03It's an opticians.
0:32:03 > 0:32:06You'd like a question. Here is a question for you.
0:32:06 > 0:32:10Do you have an explanation for having these numbers?
0:32:19 > 0:32:22Those numbers are not necessarily what you say they are.
0:32:24 > 0:32:26Did you request this information?
0:32:27 > 0:32:29Um...
0:32:33 > 0:32:36Because, Mr Tucker, if you didn't request the information, the only
0:32:36 > 0:32:41other way that it could have come to you would have been if somebody had
0:32:41 > 0:32:45supplied you with his NHS number, which would, of course, be illegal.
0:32:45 > 0:32:46Yes.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49Yes. As would obtaining his health records
0:32:49 > 0:32:51and releasing them to the press.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54Which you denied all knowledge of earlier,
0:32:54 > 0:32:56and you would have committed a crime.
0:32:56 > 0:32:57Well, I...
0:32:57 > 0:32:58Mr Tucker, a very serious crime.
0:32:58 > 0:33:00Well, as you say, I denied it.
0:33:00 > 0:33:02Yes. And, um...
0:33:03 > 0:33:05Do you repeat that denial here?
0:33:09 > 0:33:13I'm not sure that you know exactly how this all works.
0:33:13 > 0:33:17Mr Tucker, are you repeating that denial?
0:33:19 > 0:33:20Yes, I'm...
0:33:21 > 0:33:22I... I am.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26I deny it. I do deny it.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29Thank you.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32Of course you were, until quite recently, Leader of the Opposition.
0:33:32 > 0:33:33You led your party for...
0:33:33 > 0:33:35For two years, yes.
0:33:35 > 0:33:36For 22 months and nine days.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38Yes, I was rounding up.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41How does it feel to lose that position so abruptly,
0:33:41 > 0:33:42and so publicly?
0:33:43 > 0:33:47Um, horrible. It feels horrible.
0:33:47 > 0:33:49I think I felt as I would feel
0:33:49 > 0:33:53if I were being strangled to death by somebody I trusted.
0:33:53 > 0:33:57Yes, er, the press have been unkind to you over
0:33:57 > 0:34:00much of your recent career, haven't they?
0:34:00 > 0:34:02Well, when you're a high-profile politician,
0:34:02 > 0:34:06you expect to be in the public gaze. Um, I would say that there's a...
0:34:06 > 0:34:11there's a certain level of extra scrutiny that is afforded
0:34:11 > 0:34:14to women in the public gaze, I'm sure you would agree.
0:34:16 > 0:34:18Well, you were, um, followed around for six months
0:34:18 > 0:34:20by a man dressed as a pork chop.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23Is that the particular kind of scrutiny that,
0:34:23 > 0:34:25that you're saying is reserved for women?
0:34:25 > 0:34:27No, that was just reserved for me.
0:34:29 > 0:34:32If we, um, just could turn to tab 16.
0:34:32 > 0:34:36We have some articles, there's quite a few, actually.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39On top of the second page here there is an exploded view of your face.
0:34:39 > 0:34:41Yes, well they have, um...
0:34:43 > 0:34:47They have magnified a picture of my top lip,
0:34:47 > 0:34:50er, in the hope of finding a moustache, which I do not have,
0:34:50 > 0:34:53I never have had a moustache, so...
0:34:53 > 0:34:58If we, er, yes, again, if we turn to the fourth page of this tab.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03"Frumpy, grumpy and dangerous to know."
0:35:03 > 0:35:06"How Nicola Murray went from gold to lead in six months."
0:35:06 > 0:35:10I mean, this is typical of, er, of many of the pieces
0:35:10 > 0:35:12printed about you at the time, about a year ago, wasn't it?
0:35:12 > 0:35:14Yes, it was.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16Over 35 major articles.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18Yes. Yeah.
0:35:18 > 0:35:22I mean, I suppose the point I'd make is that we're sitting here
0:35:22 > 0:35:26in our ivory, um, inquiry.
0:35:26 > 0:35:31and out there, in the real world, there is actual news happening.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35You know, we've got the chief whip's office, you know,
0:35:35 > 0:35:38during the course of this morning has come under very particular scrutiny,
0:35:38 > 0:35:42there are funding issues, there's the justice minister crisis
0:35:42 > 0:35:44that's suddenly sort of spiralling out of control.
0:35:44 > 0:35:48I just, I don't quite know why we're, we're focussing on my moustache.
0:35:48 > 0:35:49Which I don't have.
0:35:49 > 0:35:53I'm afraid both of those very recent developments
0:35:53 > 0:35:55may well be the subject of police investigations,
0:35:55 > 0:35:57so cannot be discussed in this room.
0:35:57 > 0:36:00Which shows they've done the job.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02Done the job?
0:36:02 > 0:36:05Well, it just seems to me that somebody is engineering
0:36:05 > 0:36:10this flurry of press reports in order to divert attention from the, er,
0:36:10 > 0:36:14shall we say dramatic revelations of this inquiry. I mean, it just,
0:36:14 > 0:36:18it just seems like there's another story every five minutes.
0:36:18 > 0:36:19And who would that somebody be?
0:36:21 > 0:36:24Well, um. I... Maybe we should ask Taggart!
0:36:26 > 0:36:28Would you care to make a specific allegation against someone?
0:36:29 > 0:36:32Er, no I wouldn't care to, no.
0:36:32 > 0:36:34On a completely unrelated matter,
0:36:34 > 0:36:39Malcolm Tucker was pleased to see you go, is that a fair statement?
0:36:39 > 0:36:43Yes, I think that would be fair to say. Yes.
0:36:43 > 0:36:44Mmm.
0:36:44 > 0:36:48Did he engineer the leaking of the e-mail that led to your resignation?
0:36:48 > 0:36:53Er, well, I don't have any solid evidence
0:36:53 > 0:36:56that he did that. Um...
0:36:58 > 0:36:59MOBILE RINGS
0:36:59 > 0:37:02Sounds like somebody else's career has just gone into the shredder!
0:37:02 > 0:37:06I have asked for all mobile phones to be turned completely off, please.
0:37:06 > 0:37:08I'm sorry, Mrs Murray.
0:37:08 > 0:37:09Yes, it is...
0:37:09 > 0:37:11Mr Hodge.
0:37:11 > 0:37:13Mrs Murray, we spoke earlier about your husband's interests
0:37:13 > 0:37:15in the key worker, er, housing sell off.
0:37:15 > 0:37:18Yes, we spoke about his lack of interest in fact, to be precise.
0:37:18 > 0:37:20Yes, well, I've no wish to retread that particular ground.
0:37:20 > 0:37:21No, I've no wish to either,
0:37:21 > 0:37:24I mean, I really do want to make that quite clear.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27I'm finding this constant reiteration of my husband's, er,
0:37:27 > 0:37:31innocent position to be wearing in the extreme.
0:37:31 > 0:37:32Mrs Murray, may I remind you
0:37:32 > 0:37:34that you did ask for this inquiry to be set up.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36I didn't not want an inquiry.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39Well, presumably there was something that you feel that needed
0:37:39 > 0:37:43to be said, needed to be asked, about, er, about PFI, about leaking.
0:37:43 > 0:37:47I think, er, that it's a good idea to have an inquiry
0:37:47 > 0:37:49every now and then. I just think it, um...
0:37:51 > 0:37:53Livens things up a bit.
0:37:53 > 0:37:55On that subject, was it, um,
0:37:55 > 0:38:00Mr Tucker who persuaded you call for an inquiry into Mr Tickel's death?
0:38:00 > 0:38:03Er, I called for the inquiry
0:38:03 > 0:38:08after Mr Tucker had spoken to me.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12Is there a better party happening elsewhere?
0:38:12 > 0:38:14I'm sorry Mrs Murray, in view of events developing
0:38:14 > 0:38:18outside of this room, some of which may be subject to police
0:38:18 > 0:38:22investigations, and consequently to re-examine the parameters
0:38:22 > 0:38:26of this inquiry, I think we'll leave it there for the moment, Mrs Murray.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28Well, yeah, I have actually prepared a very brief statement,
0:38:28 > 0:38:31which I think will clarify my position on...
0:38:31 > 0:38:32I'm afraid we don't have the time for that.
0:38:32 > 0:38:36It is very brief. Um, I think it was Gandhi who once said
0:38:36 > 0:38:39that an honest man is a gift from God and a gift to...
0:38:39 > 0:38:44I'm sure a written submission will suffice. Thank you so much.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46I'm now going to adjourn for a short period.
0:38:49 > 0:38:50(Fuck's sake.)
0:38:52 > 0:38:54Please be seated. Thank you for your attendance, Ms Murdoch.
0:38:56 > 0:39:00Um, Mr Weir has some questions.
0:39:00 > 0:39:02If I can turn to you, Ms Murdoch.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07How would you describe your relationship with Ms Coverley?
0:39:07 > 0:39:09Do you, do you get on well with her, with her?
0:39:09 > 0:39:10No.
0:39:12 > 0:39:16Can you, um... Can you expand on that for us a little?
0:39:18 > 0:39:19No.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22I do not...
0:39:22 > 0:39:24..get on with her.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27Um, we do not get on.
0:39:27 > 0:39:28I think we do!
0:39:30 > 0:39:35There may have been times when we do get on, and have got on.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38- Um, I do not recall to that. - Thank you.
0:39:39 > 0:39:44Ms Coverley, you compared Ms Murdoch to a dog and described her as weak
0:39:44 > 0:39:46in our last interview.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50Yeah, er, I like, I like weak dogs, I have, I have one myself, so...
0:39:55 > 0:40:01Would you say that there is a culture of bullying within DoSAC?
0:40:01 > 0:40:04If I could ask you first, Ms Murdoch.
0:40:04 > 0:40:07Um, I'd say there was a culture of bullying ME at DoSAC.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09You've experienced bullying there?
0:40:09 > 0:40:12Well, you know, I, I see them all standing around, you know,
0:40:12 > 0:40:14chattering like squirrels on Red Bull.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16When I ask them what they're talking about,
0:40:16 > 0:40:19they usually bark a tea order at me.
0:40:19 > 0:40:23Or, you know, or call me, er, the blonde bombshite,
0:40:23 > 0:40:27if I can use that word, or some other horrible sweary thing.
0:40:27 > 0:40:30That's the form that the bullying takes?
0:40:30 > 0:40:33And if you refuse to make your boss's tea, you know,
0:40:33 > 0:40:35they, they call you Mariella Shitstrop.
0:40:35 > 0:40:39Or Flouncy Sinatra, which, which doesn't even really work!
0:40:40 > 0:40:44And can I ask you both about the leaked Guardian e-mail?
0:40:44 > 0:40:45Oh, yes!
0:40:45 > 0:40:48Ask anything you like, I don't know anything about that bit.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51Yeah, thank you, Robyn. The e-mail was leaked from my computer,
0:40:51 > 0:40:55which is proof that it was not me that sent it, um,
0:40:55 > 0:40:59people do not leak from their own computers, that's not how it's done.
0:40:59 > 0:41:01How is it done then, Mrs Coverley?
0:41:01 > 0:41:02I don't know.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05Well, you've just said something that implies
0:41:05 > 0:41:06you do know how it's done.
0:41:06 > 0:41:08I don't know.
0:41:08 > 0:41:09How do you know, then,
0:41:09 > 0:41:11that leaking is done from other people's computers?
0:41:11 > 0:41:14Do you learn this from a leakers' charter?
0:41:14 > 0:41:16Is it perhaps put up on a staff notice board?
0:41:16 > 0:41:19Mr Glenn Cullen informed me.
0:41:19 > 0:41:25He, er, he told me that if leaking is done, it's done from other computers.
0:41:25 > 0:41:26Glenn Cullen.
0:41:26 > 0:41:29Yeah, I'm not saying anything about Glenn Cullen himself, you understand.
0:41:29 > 0:41:33You know, he is a very, very trustworthy individual.
0:41:33 > 0:41:35Borderline priest.
0:41:35 > 0:41:37No, Terri's right. I heard it was Glenn who did it.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40No, I did not say that Glenn Cullen did it.
0:41:40 > 0:41:44No, I, when I, I meant that Glenn told you, not that,
0:41:44 > 0:41:47that I meant that Glenn did it.
0:41:47 > 0:41:50To return for the moment to the subject of bullying,
0:41:50 > 0:41:52where did Malcolm Tucker stand in all this?
0:41:52 > 0:41:54The department's a horrible place, and when Malcolm was there
0:41:54 > 0:41:58he was part of that, you know, he was the big bully.
0:41:58 > 0:42:01The other people are horribly rude,
0:42:01 > 0:42:03and the rudeness is unnecessary, but, you know,
0:42:03 > 0:42:06I don't get any sense that they've, they've got a big plan or anything.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08You know, to be honest,
0:42:08 > 0:42:10I think they're just trying to get through the day without
0:42:10 > 0:42:14cocking up, and drink as many hot drinks as possible in the process.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17Moving on, do you know anything about Malcolm Tucker's
0:42:17 > 0:42:21involvement with data smuggling? Specifically private NHS details.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23I think...
0:42:23 > 0:42:26Er, no, no, I'm afraid we don't.
0:42:26 > 0:42:28I don't. Um, would it be possible for me to revise my,
0:42:28 > 0:42:32the opinion that I gave of Malcolm Tucker on my first appearance?
0:42:32 > 0:42:33Your Lordship? Yes?
0:42:33 > 0:42:36You may revise it, but of course it will stay on the record.
0:42:36 > 0:42:39OK, um, well, I just wanted to make it absolutely clear that
0:42:39 > 0:42:41having thought about it in the grand scheme of things,
0:42:41 > 0:42:46I don't think it is fair to say that Malcolm is a bully or he's brutal.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49Certainly not when you compare him to some of his fellow countrymen.
0:42:49 > 0:42:52Well, I think Malcolm's really difficult, and you do too, Terri.
0:42:52 > 0:42:56Don't know why you're being so coy. It's not like he'll do a...you know.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58A you know? What's, what's this?
0:42:58 > 0:43:01You know, that story about you in the papers.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05A story involving me in the newspapers is not the subject
0:43:05 > 0:43:09of this investigation, so we are not going to discuss it any further.
0:43:09 > 0:43:12Now, er, Miss Murdoch, what about the use of data smuggling,
0:43:12 > 0:43:15er, within government?
0:43:15 > 0:43:17Do you know anything about that?
0:43:17 > 0:43:21Yeah, loads. Um, there are dodgy people in the NHS
0:43:21 > 0:43:26and the benefits office who talk to investigators all the time.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30- Do you have experience of this? - Yeah, I've been on the receiving end of it.
0:43:32 > 0:43:36I didn't know that the notes your GP makes are available
0:43:36 > 0:43:39to your local pharmacist.
0:43:39 > 0:43:43I went to see my mother's doctor about her alcohol problem,
0:43:43 > 0:43:45which is a private family matter.
0:43:45 > 0:43:47Next thing I knew, it's all round the village.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50Yes. And now it's all round the world.
0:43:50 > 0:43:51Exactly.
0:43:53 > 0:43:55She's saying that that's your fault.
0:43:55 > 0:43:56How?
0:43:59 > 0:44:00Oh.
0:44:00 > 0:44:02As you can see, Baroness Sureka is not with us
0:44:02 > 0:44:06and will remain absent while she deals with the personal allegations
0:44:06 > 0:44:08published in the Sunday Times.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11This in no way invalidates the inquiry, nor does it compromise
0:44:11 > 0:44:15the integrity of any questioning conducted by Baroness Sureka.
0:44:15 > 0:44:17Mr Hodge.
0:44:18 > 0:44:19Thank you.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22Er, Oliver Reeder, you were a senior advisor to Nicola Murray
0:44:22 > 0:44:25during her time as Secretary of State at DoSAC.
0:44:25 > 0:44:29Yup. I was, er, the senior advisor.
0:44:29 > 0:44:32Good, and when Ms Murray became Leader of the Opposition,
0:44:32 > 0:44:34er, you were also one of her senior advisors?
0:44:34 > 0:44:36Yeah. Again, the, the senior advisor, yeah.
0:44:36 > 0:44:40I see, and now you're a senior advisor to Mr Dan Miller?
0:44:40 > 0:44:43Yeah, yeah, slight, a slightly less pivotal role with, with Dan,
0:44:43 > 0:44:45but part of a, kind of, larger pivot, really.
0:44:45 > 0:44:48Mm-hmm, thank you. Er, well, Mr Reeder,
0:44:48 > 0:44:50they say that in politics knowledge is power.
0:44:50 > 0:44:52True, yes, although that doesn't mean that Carol Vorderman
0:44:52 > 0:44:54should be Prime Minister!
0:44:55 > 0:44:59Or should I say Stephen Fry, cos Carol's just maths, but yeah.
0:45:00 > 0:45:04You've known Malcolm Tucker for, for some years now.
0:45:04 > 0:45:05Yes, I have, yes.
0:45:06 > 0:45:10He seems like a, an intimidating person. Is he?
0:45:10 > 0:45:12Er, well, I mean not, not to me.
0:45:12 > 0:45:13No?
0:45:13 > 0:45:16No, er, no, er, no, although he doesn't,
0:45:16 > 0:45:19he doesn't suffer fools gladly, I think that's fair to say,
0:45:19 > 0:45:21or, um, or clever people, to be honest.
0:45:21 > 0:45:23So he's never, er, bullied you?
0:45:23 > 0:45:27Well, do I, do I look like I could be bullied by Mr Tucker?
0:45:27 > 0:45:28I could... No.
0:45:29 > 0:45:32Could you turn to tab nine?
0:45:32 > 0:45:34You'll find it in your, in your folder there, yeah.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39Um, we have some, er, some quotes here.
0:45:39 > 0:45:44Some evidence from several civil servants who, who all
0:45:44 > 0:45:51independently suggest that Mr Tucker, in fact, regularly did bully you.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53"Mr Tucker threatened to remove Mr Reeder's appendix,
0:45:53 > 0:45:56"throw away Mr Reeder,
0:45:56 > 0:45:59"and appoint the useless flap of colon as special advisor."
0:45:59 > 0:46:01Yeah.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04Um... Well that's, yes!
0:46:04 > 0:46:06That's banter.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09"Mr Tucker told Mr Reeder that he would have him smothered,
0:46:09 > 0:46:13"eviscerated, stuff, fitted with wheels, and donated to an orphanage."
0:46:13 > 0:46:15That's, what... cos this is out of context,
0:46:15 > 0:46:17what you don't have there is my reply.
0:46:17 > 0:46:19- And so, you know, it's just him. - And what was that?
0:46:19 > 0:46:22Er, well, I don't remember what it was on this occasion.
0:46:22 > 0:46:24It would have been, but it would have been a, you know, kkk!
0:46:24 > 0:46:27It would have been a zinger, because I gave as good as I got,
0:46:27 > 0:46:29- so it's not bullying. - Very good.
0:46:29 > 0:46:32Is there anything about the leaking of the so-called PFI e-mail
0:46:32 > 0:46:35that you feel that this inquiry should, should be aware of?
0:46:35 > 0:46:37Oh, God, um...
0:46:38 > 0:46:40I mean, um...
0:46:41 > 0:46:42I mean, to be brutally frank,
0:46:42 > 0:46:44I'm, I'm struggling to remember here, but...
0:46:44 > 0:46:46Well, please take your time. There's no hurry.
0:46:46 > 0:46:49Of course, yeah, I mean I think, you know, what,
0:46:49 > 0:46:52what you have to remember, in this instance, is that on the day
0:46:52 > 0:46:56that all of that stuff took place, um, I was in hospital.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59So I'm, you know, I'm cut off, essentially, I didn't have a phone.
0:46:59 > 0:47:02But I mean, I hadn't mentioned, er, the use of a phone, I mean...
0:47:02 > 0:47:04Yes, no, I know, I'm simply saying I was...
0:47:04 > 0:47:07You weren't working remotely from the hospital?
0:47:07 > 0:47:10No, no, not remotely, um, er, in, in either sense. No. No.
0:47:10 > 0:47:12Did you have any visitors?
0:47:12 > 0:47:13Erm...
0:47:15 > 0:47:17You must be able to remember that.
0:47:18 > 0:47:20Well, if you're not completely sure, Mr Reeder,
0:47:20 > 0:47:23you can always check with the visitors' records.
0:47:23 > 0:47:27Well, don't, let's not do that, um, let's not do that for the moment,
0:47:27 > 0:47:33let me just, if, just give, bear with me, er, but I did, yes,
0:47:33 > 0:47:37I think I was visited by colleagues from the office.
0:47:37 > 0:47:39Can you give us a name?
0:47:41 > 0:47:46Er, Malcolm is, um, is his name, Malcolm's name,
0:47:46 > 0:47:48Malcolm, Malcolm Tucker visited me.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51I'm assuming this wasn't a social visit, what did, er,
0:47:51 > 0:47:54what did he, what did Mr Tucker want?
0:47:54 > 0:47:57He wanted to, he, I mean, what, what, OK.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02I mean, I'm really, I'm, I'm anxious, I'm keen,
0:48:02 > 0:48:05I'm trying my best to answer your, er, questions truthfully...
0:48:05 > 0:48:07I should remind you you are under oath, Mr...
0:48:07 > 0:48:11Absolutely, yes, I'm under oath, so this is... but, but, er...
0:48:12 > 0:48:14What you have to understand is,
0:48:14 > 0:48:17everybody has something on everyone here, right?
0:48:17 > 0:48:23So in this circumstance, if you inadvertently say or do something,
0:48:23 > 0:48:28um, er, you know, you shouldn't, then that's it, that's it,
0:48:28 > 0:48:31that's it, it's done, your career is done.
0:48:31 > 0:48:35You know, look what happened to a member of this inquiry, right?
0:48:35 > 0:48:37So you have to...
0:48:37 > 0:48:40- This is not the place to discuss those allegations.- No, of course.
0:48:40 > 0:48:41- Mr Reeder, if you feel...- Yeah.
0:48:41 > 0:48:45You feel under pressure, am I right? Is that because of something that you know?
0:48:45 > 0:48:49Yes, no, er, general pressure, I feel under a, a sort of,
0:48:49 > 0:48:50just that, it's the jitters of work.
0:48:50 > 0:48:52Who leaked the e-mail, Mr Reeder?
0:48:52 > 0:48:54Glenn, er, Cullen.
0:48:54 > 0:48:56Er, he was in DoSAC at the time,
0:48:56 > 0:48:59and he, er, still had access to the e-mail, and he hated his life,
0:48:59 > 0:49:03he, he, you know, he hated Nicola Murray because she'd previously
0:49:03 > 0:49:07destroyed his chances of standing as an MP.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09Most helpful, Glenn Cullen is our next witness.
0:49:09 > 0:49:10Most interesting, thank you.
0:49:10 > 0:49:12- Oh, well, OK. - That's fine, thank you.
0:49:12 > 0:49:14Mr Cullen.
0:49:14 > 0:49:17I wonder if I could start by taking you back to that time two years ago.
0:49:17 > 0:49:21You left Nicola Murray, and you went to work for Fergus Williams.
0:49:21 > 0:49:22Yes, yes I did, that's right.
0:49:22 > 0:49:26And you found yourself in a coalition with the very party
0:49:26 > 0:49:29that you opposed. That must have been extremely distressing.
0:49:29 > 0:49:32Er, no, not at all, as a matter of fact. I was very invigorated
0:49:32 > 0:49:36by the idea of, er, trying to forge a new way in politics.
0:49:36 > 0:49:38Mm-hmm, so all was rosy?
0:49:38 > 0:49:41Well, um, can't think of any negatives.
0:49:41 > 0:49:43No friction?
0:49:43 > 0:49:46No, the only F word was fun.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50Thank you, Mr Cullen.
0:49:50 > 0:49:51Mr Cullen.
0:49:51 > 0:49:55Would you say there's a culture of leaking in the government?
0:49:55 > 0:49:58Yes, I would. Yes, leaking and lying.
0:49:58 > 0:50:02To your knowledge have any of your colleagues lied to this inquiry?
0:50:02 > 0:50:05Well, I mean, that's a bit like asking, you know, um,
0:50:05 > 0:50:06does a cow drink milk?
0:50:06 > 0:50:08Does it?
0:50:08 > 0:50:10Probably.
0:50:10 > 0:50:13But what I meant to say was, er, yes,
0:50:13 > 0:50:18um, my colleagues lie constantly, it's a professional necessity.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21Have you ever leaked, Mr Cullen?
0:50:21 > 0:50:25First of all, may I just say, er, welcome back, Baroness Sureka,
0:50:25 > 0:50:28big hugs, I'm sure I speak to everyone here
0:50:28 > 0:50:32when I say that we're all thinking of you, er, and, er, you have been...
0:50:32 > 0:50:36I'd rather you, um, swapped the ham-fisted flattery for actually
0:50:36 > 0:50:39answering my question, which was have you ever leaked?
0:50:39 > 0:50:41Right. No, it's a very simple question
0:50:41 > 0:50:44and it's got a very simple answer. No, I haven't.
0:50:44 > 0:50:47Um, you'll be aware of Ollie Reeder's testimony to the inquiry
0:50:47 > 0:50:50where he said that you were, in fact, responsible for the PFI leak.
0:50:50 > 0:50:51Yes, I am.
0:50:53 > 0:50:56But, no, which means to say I am aware of, of that.
0:50:56 > 0:51:00But, gosh, you've got to be careful what you say here, haven't you?
0:51:00 > 0:51:03You certainly do, Mr Cullen. Let's hope we're up to it.
0:51:03 > 0:51:05Is there any truth at all in Mr Reeder's accusations?
0:51:05 > 0:51:06Absolutely none whatsoever.
0:51:06 > 0:51:11He's talking out of his... out of his other cheeks, if you...
0:51:11 > 0:51:13Why would Oliver Reeder suggest that you were behind
0:51:13 > 0:51:15the PFI e-mail leak, then?
0:51:15 > 0:51:16I've absolutely no idea.
0:51:16 > 0:51:20It's very difficult for me to get into the mindset of somebody
0:51:20 > 0:51:26so entirely self-serving and, um, spiritually ugly.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29I mean, anyone who's been unfortunate enough to have come across
0:51:29 > 0:51:32Ollie Reeder will know that he is a genuinely...
0:51:33 > 0:51:36atrocious person.
0:51:36 > 0:51:39Mmm. Do you believe Mr Reeder was trying to cover himself in that case?
0:51:39 > 0:51:42Well, I do believe he has the emotional tools for the task. Yes, certainly.
0:51:42 > 0:51:45Do you believe that Ollie Reeder was behind the leak?
0:51:46 > 0:51:48No.
0:51:48 > 0:51:50You see...
0:51:51 > 0:51:56A leak of this magnitude would require
0:51:56 > 0:51:59one essential item that Ollie lacks.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01And that's a spine.
0:52:01 > 0:52:05He is a man without a spine, he is a man worm,
0:52:05 > 0:52:09he's a writhing mollusc without any strategies or convictions,
0:52:09 > 0:52:14he simply slimes his way into the nearest crack every night,
0:52:14 > 0:52:17and I would like to put on record that I apologise to this committee
0:52:17 > 0:52:21for being the man who brought him into the world of politics.
0:52:21 > 0:52:24..the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
0:52:24 > 0:52:26Thank you for returning to this inquiry, Mr Tucker.
0:52:26 > 0:52:28That's no problem, no.
0:52:28 > 0:52:31I had a hair appointment, but I think they can fit me in next week.
0:52:31 > 0:52:33There's no need to be so flippant about this inquiry.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36Well, it's just, you know, you keep asking me the same questions,
0:52:36 > 0:52:39I can't really help it if you don't like the answers.
0:52:39 > 0:52:41Maybe you could try a little harder in answering.
0:52:41 > 0:52:44I'm amazed you've stayed at the top of politics for, for quite
0:52:44 > 0:52:47so long with such apparently poor powers of recall.
0:52:47 > 0:52:49Maybe it's my age. It's good to see you back.
0:52:49 > 0:52:51Thank you. Nice to see you too.
0:52:52 > 0:52:54At your last appearance at this inquiry,
0:52:54 > 0:52:57you admitted that you have leaked. Is that correct?
0:52:57 > 0:53:00Well, everyone leaks. Many, many people who appeared here in
0:53:00 > 0:53:04front of you, er, have leaked, but they've just lied about it to you.
0:53:04 > 0:53:08Mr Tucker, that's an incredibly serious charge,
0:53:08 > 0:53:11do you have any evidence to substantiate that allegation?
0:53:11 > 0:53:13Well, you will forgive me if I don't do your job for you.
0:53:13 > 0:53:16Because if you can't spot a sprayed-on halo
0:53:16 > 0:53:19while someone doing a, you know, "What me, guv?" panto act,
0:53:19 > 0:53:22maybe you shouldn't be sitting behind that desk.
0:53:22 > 0:53:25At your last appearance we asked you very specifically
0:53:25 > 0:53:30how you came by Mr Tickel's NHS number and National Insurance number,
0:53:30 > 0:53:32and you could not recall.
0:53:32 > 0:53:34Have you had any more time to think about it?
0:53:34 > 0:53:36Yes, I have.
0:53:36 > 0:53:37And could you tell us any more?
0:53:37 > 0:53:39No.
0:53:39 > 0:53:41You've got no recollection at all?
0:53:41 > 0:53:44No. By the way, you should not be talking to me about this,
0:53:44 > 0:53:46because you've been a victim of a leaking,
0:53:46 > 0:53:49a very unfortunate victim, and I have every sympathy with you.
0:53:49 > 0:53:52How can you possibly give me a fair hearing when you've been
0:53:52 > 0:53:54a victim of the very crime that you are accusing me of?
0:53:54 > 0:54:00You are prejudiced, this entire inquiry, therefore, is prejudiced.
0:54:01 > 0:54:03I can see what you're doing.
0:54:03 > 0:54:05It smacks of desperation and it will not work.
0:54:05 > 0:54:07Does it?
0:54:07 > 0:54:09No, listen, there you go again, see that's it,
0:54:09 > 0:54:10you're just rushing to judgement.
0:54:10 > 0:54:12You are totally discredited here.
0:54:12 > 0:54:17I am obliged to remind you, Mr Tucker, that you are under oath,
0:54:17 > 0:54:22and if you lie to this inquiry, it may result in a criminal prosecution.
0:54:22 > 0:54:28Sorry, please don't insult my intelligence by acting as if
0:54:28 > 0:54:31you're all so naive that you don't know how this all works.
0:54:31 > 0:54:37Everybody in this room has bent the rules to get in here,
0:54:37 > 0:54:41because you don't get in this room without bending the rules,
0:54:41 > 0:54:44you don't get to where you are without bending the rules,
0:54:44 > 0:54:46that's the way it is.
0:54:46 > 0:54:49Mr Tucker, I'm going to give you one more chance
0:54:49 > 0:54:51to respond to my question.
0:54:51 > 0:54:55How did you acquire Mr Tickel's NHS number
0:54:55 > 0:54:56and his National Insurance number?
0:54:56 > 0:54:59Who said I acquired it?
0:54:59 > 0:55:01A photograph.
0:55:01 > 0:55:05No, no, the photograph shows me holding it.
0:55:05 > 0:55:06Doesn't show me acquiring it.
0:55:06 > 0:55:09You'd have to ask the person that gave me the folder.
0:55:09 > 0:55:11- Who gave you the folder? - I don't remember.
0:55:12 > 0:55:14You are being deliberately evasive.
0:55:20 > 0:55:21I...
0:55:23 > 0:55:24I don't...
0:55:25 > 0:55:28recall, you know. I don't, I don't know, I can't remember.
0:55:28 > 0:55:29Very well.
0:55:29 > 0:55:34Regardless of how you came by Mr Tickel's mental health records,
0:55:34 > 0:55:37did you then leak them to the media?
0:55:38 > 0:55:39I can't recall.
0:55:41 > 0:55:44So that's not a denial?
0:55:46 > 0:55:47Je ne remember rien.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50Well, if you can't recall,
0:55:50 > 0:55:53it leaves open the possibility that you did leak them.
0:55:53 > 0:55:55Let me tell you this.
0:55:55 > 0:55:58The whole planet's leaking, everybody is leaking.
0:55:58 > 0:56:02You know, everyone's spewing out their guts onto the internet.
0:56:02 > 0:56:05Putting up their, their relationship status,
0:56:05 > 0:56:07and, er, photos of their vajazzles.
0:56:07 > 0:56:11We've come to a point where there are people, millions of people,
0:56:11 > 0:56:15who are quite happy to trade a kidney in order to go on television.
0:56:15 > 0:56:18And to show people their knickers, to show people their skid marks,
0:56:18 > 0:56:22and then complain to OK Magazine about a breach of privacy.
0:56:22 > 0:56:27The exchange of private information, that is what drives our economy.
0:56:27 > 0:56:29But you come after me
0:56:29 > 0:56:33because you can't, you can't arrest a land mass, can you?
0:56:33 > 0:56:36You can't, you can't cuff a country.
0:56:37 > 0:56:38You might as well just go and go,
0:56:38 > 0:56:42you can't lynch that guy there, can you?
0:56:42 > 0:56:44But you decide that you can sit there, you can judge,
0:56:44 > 0:56:46and you can ogle me like a Page Three girl.
0:56:46 > 0:56:50You don't like it? Well, you don't like yourself.
0:56:50 > 0:56:53You don't like your species, and you know what?
0:56:53 > 0:56:56Neither do I, but how dare you come and lay this at my door.
0:56:58 > 0:57:02How dare you blame me for this.
0:57:04 > 0:57:07Which is the result of a political class...
0:57:08 > 0:57:10..which has given up on morality.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15And simply pursues popularity at all costs.
0:57:17 > 0:57:18I am you, and you are me.
0:57:21 > 0:57:23Are you finished?
0:57:23 > 0:57:25Ah, I'm finished anyway.
0:57:25 > 0:57:27You didn't finish me.
0:57:27 > 0:57:29Would you like to stand down?
0:57:33 > 0:57:34Thanks.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39Are you not the human router?
0:57:39 > 0:57:40The human router, yes.
0:57:40 > 0:57:45But I think you'll find that leaking is very much a 3G business.
0:57:45 > 0:57:48You know? It's, it's off the house wi-fi grid.
0:57:48 > 0:57:51I assume you're referring to the leaking of Mr Tickel's
0:57:51 > 0:57:54medical records, and I would like to say, I find that disgraceful,
0:57:54 > 0:57:56and I would like that on the record.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58Everything we say here is on the record,
0:57:58 > 0:58:00Mr Williams, that's how this works.
0:58:00 > 0:58:01Well, that's great.
0:58:01 > 0:58:06When I was a journalist, OK, when I, when I was a journalist at the Mail, I used leaks.
0:58:06 > 0:58:08Now I'm in government, I do not leak.
0:58:08 > 0:58:11Wayne Rooney, for example, he used to score goals for Everton.
0:58:11 > 0:58:13And now he plays for, for Manchester United.
0:58:13 > 0:58:16Now, nobody expects him to score goals for Everton any more, do they?
0:58:16 > 0:58:20I mean, if he did that, United would give him the sack.
0:58:20 > 0:58:23..although you did previously describe yourself as a shepherdess.
0:58:25 > 0:58:27Now, did you have something to add to that?
0:58:27 > 0:58:31I just, shepherdess, did she say, did you say shepherdess?
0:58:31 > 0:58:33Yes, I was, I was giving an analogy, I mean to be, to be fair,
0:58:33 > 0:58:36Perhaps it would be more accurate to describe myself
0:58:36 > 0:58:38as a sheep in shepherdess's clothing.
0:58:38 > 0:58:40Do you follow?
0:58:40 > 0:58:43Err, no, not, not, er, completely. No.
0:58:43 > 0:58:45The shepherdess analogy is flawed anyway.
0:58:45 > 0:58:50Malcolm Tucker is very much a political Flintstone. You know.
0:58:50 > 0:58:53He carved his press releases into stone tablets.
0:58:53 > 0:58:56He uses a bird's beak to play his Happy Monday vinyls. He leaks.