0:00:02 > 0:00:04We asked you to tell us what's left you feeling
0:00:04 > 0:00:07totally ripped off and you contacted us in your thousands.
0:00:07 > 0:00:10You've told us about the companies that you think get it wrong,
0:00:10 > 0:00:13and the customer service that simply is not up to scratch.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15It would seem that once they've got your money,
0:00:15 > 0:00:17they're not particularly interested in coming back to you
0:00:17 > 0:00:19or to give you satisfactory customer service.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22You've asked us to track down the scammers who stole your money and
0:00:22 > 0:00:26investigate the extra charges that you say are unfair.
0:00:26 > 0:00:27I think prices are going up
0:00:27 > 0:00:31and no-one's actually doing anything to improve that.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33And when you've lost out but no-one else is to blame,
0:00:33 > 0:00:37you've come to us to stop others falling into the same trap.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40You just get to the point, it's, "No, leave me alone!"
0:00:40 > 0:00:44So, whether it's a blatant rip-off or a genuine mistake...
0:00:44 > 0:00:46..we're here to find out why you're out of pocket
0:00:46 > 0:00:49and what you can do about it.
0:00:49 > 0:00:53Your stories, your money - this is Rip-Off Britain.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Hello and thank you so much for joining us once again
0:00:58 > 0:00:59on Rip-Off Britain,
0:00:59 > 0:01:02where today's programme is all about the financial institutions
0:01:02 > 0:01:04that we trust to keep our money safe.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07That's right, we're talking about the banks.
0:01:07 > 0:01:08Now, of course I have
0:01:08 > 0:01:11my own strong views and doubts on this particular one,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15but are they really doing everything they can to keep our money safe,
0:01:15 > 0:01:18which, in the end, is the very basis of what they are about?
0:01:18 > 0:01:20You'd think it would be, wouldn't you?
0:01:20 > 0:01:23But you'll see just why we're asking that question
0:01:23 > 0:01:24when you hear what happened to
0:01:24 > 0:01:27some of the people who are going to be sharing their stories with us,
0:01:27 > 0:01:30and though they each had money stolen from them
0:01:30 > 0:01:31in very different ways,
0:01:31 > 0:01:34what their experiences have in common is that their faith
0:01:34 > 0:01:37in the banks and where they keep their money
0:01:37 > 0:01:41has been understandably very severely shaken.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44And when you think that these huge institutions are
0:01:44 > 0:01:46some of the richest on the planet,
0:01:46 > 0:01:48you'd certainly expect them to pull out all the stops to keep
0:01:48 > 0:01:51one step ahead of the fraudsters, wouldn't you?
0:01:51 > 0:01:53So, as we investigate how safe your money is,
0:01:53 > 0:01:56we'll be asking just what is being done to make sure
0:01:56 > 0:01:59that next time a criminal finds a way to steal someone's money,
0:01:59 > 0:02:02the account they plunder isn't yours.
0:02:02 > 0:02:06Coming up, how some very familiar faces
0:02:06 > 0:02:11have had their bank accounts raided by crooks in the same way as mine.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14I got a phone call from somebody saying that,
0:02:14 > 0:02:16"I can tell you now that your bank account is going to be
0:02:16 > 0:02:19"hacked into on Monday morning."
0:02:19 > 0:02:22And how thousands of customers of the same bank
0:02:22 > 0:02:25woke up to discover their money had been targeted as well.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29So, could more have been done to keep it all secure?
0:02:29 > 0:02:31I still don't really know what they've done to fix it.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33Have they made anything better?
0:02:33 > 0:02:35Have they made sure it won't happen again?
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Nobody's told me anything.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43Now, even after hearing so many of the shocking experiences
0:02:43 > 0:02:46you write to us about here at Rip-Off Britain,
0:02:46 > 0:02:49it never ceases to amaze me just how cunning and determined
0:02:49 > 0:02:53a criminal can be in order to get their hands on your money.
0:02:53 > 0:02:55Now, whether it's stealing somebody else's ID,
0:02:55 > 0:02:59hacking into e-mails or pretending to be from the police
0:02:59 > 0:03:02or indeed your bank, the level of deception in some of these crimes
0:03:02 > 0:03:06really is astounding. But sometimes,
0:03:06 > 0:03:10it's the simplest of frauds that can fool unwitting people into handing
0:03:10 > 0:03:11over huge sums of money.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13And you may recall not so long ago,
0:03:13 > 0:03:16it only took some fake ID and four people to convince
0:03:16 > 0:03:20bank staff to hand over my own savings to criminals.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24So, let me reintroduce you to the woman who,
0:03:24 > 0:03:27along with three other people, waltzed into my bank
0:03:27 > 0:03:28pretending to be me.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31And this is one of her accomplices, who took on the role of my daughter.
0:03:31 > 0:03:35Very sadly for me, my Caron passed away 13 years ago,
0:03:35 > 0:03:39and I hope that this woman doesn't look anything like me.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41But that didn't stop them from stealing my name,
0:03:41 > 0:03:45my identity and £120,000 from my bank account.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48And, to add insult to injury, they're still on the run.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52Do you recognise either of those women? Or the signature?
0:03:52 > 0:03:53Please call now if you do.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58I was very hopeful that an appeal on BBC's Crimewatch programme
0:03:58 > 0:03:59might help to catch them.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05First feeling is really a shock.
0:04:05 > 0:04:07Then anger. Questions start
0:04:07 > 0:04:10when you think your money is safe and locked away,
0:04:10 > 0:04:12that actually it isn't.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17In my case, this woman and her partners in crime
0:04:17 > 0:04:20simply walked into a branch of Santander and then,
0:04:20 > 0:04:23using a counterfeit driving licence in my name,
0:04:23 > 0:04:27persuaded a staff member that her fake grandson
0:04:27 > 0:04:29should be a co-signatory on my account.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34But you know, what really frightens me is that, since then,
0:04:34 > 0:04:37it's become clear that this was by no means a one-off.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Indeed, something very similar happened to a good pal of mine,
0:04:40 > 0:04:41Eamonn Holmes.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45He's been a TV presenter for over 20 years
0:04:45 > 0:04:50and his face is known to millions of people right across the UK.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Even so, this man, John Cartmill, who I'm sure you'll agree
0:04:53 > 0:04:56is hardly what you'd call a dead ringer for Eamonn,
0:04:56 > 0:04:59was able to impersonate him and reportedly spend
0:04:59 > 0:05:03tens of thousands of pounds on his debit card.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05And I'm afraid he didn't stop there.
0:05:05 > 0:05:09He also targeted BBC Radio 5 live presenter Stephen Nolan,
0:05:09 > 0:05:13managing to run up £22,000 on credit cards in his name.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18Well, Cartmill's crime spree came to an end in 2014
0:05:18 > 0:05:21when he was caught and given a suspended sentence.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24And later, he found himself going face-to-face
0:05:24 > 0:05:28with one of his victims for a TV programme.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31I did do wrong. I do apologise.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36Well, in my case, although the boy impersonating my grandson
0:05:36 > 0:05:39and another accomplice were caught and prosecuted,
0:05:39 > 0:05:41the fact that the woman who impersonated me
0:05:41 > 0:05:43and my alleged daughter
0:05:43 > 0:05:46have so far still not been caught really disturbs me.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49But it seems there are plenty of other situations
0:05:49 > 0:05:52where bank staff have simply been hoodwinked into handing over
0:05:52 > 0:05:55cash from customers' accounts.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03I've come to Gloucestershire to meet another high-profile victim,
0:06:03 > 0:06:06professional jockey Andrew Thornton.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08He's had an incredible career in horse racing
0:06:08 > 0:06:11and last year joined the ranks of a very exclusive group
0:06:11 > 0:06:14who've all ridden more than a thousand winners.
0:06:15 > 0:06:18But unfortunately, it's an experience much less positive
0:06:18 > 0:06:20that I've come to discuss with him.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22So, Andrew, in your case, what happened?
0:06:22 > 0:06:25I got a phone call from a bank in Cheltenham and they told me
0:06:25 > 0:06:28that I'd missed a bank appointment.
0:06:28 > 0:06:30I'd never made one, I'd never been at Cheltenham before.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32That just suddenly rang alarm bells,
0:06:32 > 0:06:36so I got in touch with my bank and said what had happened,
0:06:36 > 0:06:39and found out that I had £10,000 taken out.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41In one fell swoop?
0:06:41 > 0:06:48No, it was in instalments, £350, £750, each time over the counter,
0:06:48 > 0:06:52somebody impersonating a jockey and pretending to be me.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54So, what did you find out?
0:06:54 > 0:06:58What did they provide as security in order to get the money?
0:06:58 > 0:07:00Well, the person had gone in originally
0:07:00 > 0:07:02and said that he'd lost his bank card,
0:07:02 > 0:07:06could he make an appointment to get another one?
0:07:06 > 0:07:08So, then they thought, obviously, that's legit,
0:07:08 > 0:07:13and then he was able to give identity over the counter,
0:07:13 > 0:07:16and then that's how he was able to get the money out.
0:07:16 > 0:07:17Did it make you feel angry?
0:07:17 > 0:07:20Angry, frustrated.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22It's the hassle.
0:07:22 > 0:07:24It's just...
0:07:24 > 0:07:28you know, difficult to think that in this day and age,
0:07:28 > 0:07:30you can't put your money and have faith in the banks
0:07:30 > 0:07:32and they're going to look after it.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36And Andrew is one of over 30 jockeys and trainers who have been targeted
0:07:36 > 0:07:40in this way, leading the Professional Jockeys Association
0:07:40 > 0:07:44to advise its members to leave high-street banks altogether.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48And Andrew's case had one final and very surprising twist.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51Before yet more money could be taken from his account,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54he received a tip-off from one of the people involved,
0:07:54 > 0:07:56warning of what was about to happen.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00I got a phone call from somebody saying that my account was going to
0:08:00 > 0:08:03get hacked into, another account was going to get hacked into.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06So, the actual hacker or somebody who knew the hacker...
0:08:06 > 0:08:08He said that he was a hacker and he said,
0:08:08 > 0:08:10"I respect what you do for a business,
0:08:10 > 0:08:13"I respect all of your colleagues, what they do for a business,
0:08:13 > 0:08:17"but I can tell you now that your bank account is going to be
0:08:17 > 0:08:19"hacked into on Monday morning.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21"Please, go to your bank straight away,
0:08:21 > 0:08:24"tell them what's happening, shut everything down.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28"Just make sure that we can't get any more money out.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31"That's the only way you will stop us doing what we're doing."
0:08:31 > 0:08:32I've dealt with a lot of scams
0:08:32 > 0:08:35and I've thought endlessly about my own
0:08:35 > 0:08:39and I have never heard a story where somebody involved in the scam
0:08:39 > 0:08:42actually rings you up and says,
0:08:42 > 0:08:44"By the way, your account's going to be scammed tomorrow."
0:08:44 > 0:08:46That is highly unusual.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Well, it's something surreal.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50Totally, and, as a result,
0:08:50 > 0:08:52Andrew was able to stop the fraudsters
0:08:52 > 0:08:53from raiding his account yet again,
0:08:53 > 0:08:58and his bank refunded the £10,000 stolen the first time around.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01But you know, that's not really the point
0:09:01 > 0:09:03because, while it's obviously a relief that,
0:09:03 > 0:09:05in this kind of situation,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08you should end up getting back any money that's been stolen,
0:09:08 > 0:09:11as indeed I did,
0:09:11 > 0:09:12the big question is
0:09:12 > 0:09:15why was it so easy to be taken in in the first place?
0:09:15 > 0:09:18So, are banks doing enough to keep our money safe?
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Well, Andrew's former bank, Lloyds, told us that
0:09:23 > 0:09:25it takes fraud very seriously
0:09:25 > 0:09:28and it was because Andrew had been the victim of identity theft
0:09:28 > 0:09:31that the fraudster was able to bypass the branch's usual
0:09:31 > 0:09:33stringent security checks.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35Once it was alerted to the fraud,
0:09:35 > 0:09:39it immediately placed blocks on the account and ensured
0:09:39 > 0:09:41a full refund of the money which had been withdrawn.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43And my bank, Santander,
0:09:43 > 0:09:47reiterated that customers who are the victim of a fraud
0:09:47 > 0:09:50through no fault of their own will not lose out financially.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54It says that it constantly is improving policies and systems
0:09:54 > 0:09:57to prevent cases of fraud such as this one
0:09:57 > 0:10:01and continues to invest and install new technology that also helps
0:10:01 > 0:10:04identify and verify ID documents.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08In my case, however, the bank says its policies were not followed,
0:10:08 > 0:10:11allowing the fraud to occur, and they've apologised
0:10:11 > 0:10:15for the inconvenience and the distress caused.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19But I'm afraid that, after his experience, like me,
0:10:19 > 0:10:21Andrew has had his faith in banks shattered.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23You just think to yourself,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26you don't want to put your money in the banks.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29You've always been told when you're young it's the safest place
0:10:29 > 0:10:32to have your money, it's secure,
0:10:32 > 0:10:36and unfortunately it isn't at the moment.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39Naturally, I can understand how he feels but is he right?
0:10:39 > 0:10:43Well, later on, we'll be putting just that point to the organisation
0:10:43 > 0:10:45that works with the banks to tackle fraud,
0:10:45 > 0:10:47to see what it has to say
0:10:47 > 0:10:51about whether they can still be relied upon to keep your money safe.
0:10:51 > 0:10:56Year on year, for four years, there has been an increase in fraud.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59All of that suggests that the banks aren't doing a terribly good job
0:10:59 > 0:11:02of protecting our money and indeed their business interests.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08In stories and comics,
0:11:08 > 0:11:11I think we all know what a cartoon bank robber looks like.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13Black-and-white striped top, a mask, maybe,
0:11:13 > 0:11:16and always a bag of swag slung over their shoulder.
0:11:16 > 0:11:20Well, in the real world, of course, things aren't that simple
0:11:20 > 0:11:22and, judging by the cases that we heard about
0:11:22 > 0:11:25earlier in the programme, some of the biggest names in banking
0:11:25 > 0:11:29can all too easily be fooled into handing over their customers' cash
0:11:29 > 0:11:32to a villain who is wearing, well, no disguise whatsoever.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36All of which does make you wonder, if banks are struggling
0:11:36 > 0:11:40to stop the scammers when they are looking them right in the eye,
0:11:40 > 0:11:43what hope do they have of tackling the criminals who are hiding behind
0:11:43 > 0:11:46the faceless world of online banking?
0:11:49 > 0:11:52It was a Sunday morning last winter when tens of thousands of customers
0:11:52 > 0:11:56of Tesco Bank woke to alarming news about their accounts.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00It was a modern-style bank robbery over the internet,
0:12:00 > 0:12:04which may have netted millions of pounds from Tesco customers.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09The bank's computer system had been hacked into
0:12:09 > 0:12:12and, as a result, suspicious activity had been detected
0:12:12 > 0:12:14on accounts nationwide.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18Among those affected was Daniel Nugent in Aberdare.
0:12:18 > 0:12:23I woke up in the morning, switched my phone on and it buzzed
0:12:23 > 0:12:28and I had a look at it and it said that it was from Tesco Bank,
0:12:28 > 0:12:30asking me to contact them.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33I had another text message from them,
0:12:33 > 0:12:38saying that they detected suspicious account activity with my account.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41Daniel called the bank straight away
0:12:41 > 0:12:44but, no doubt because so many people had been affected,
0:12:44 > 0:12:47it was nearly an hour before he was able to speak to anyone
0:12:47 > 0:12:51and, when he did, he was reassured that all was fine.
0:12:51 > 0:12:55He was saying, "Yeah, carry on using your card and everything,
0:12:55 > 0:12:57"we think we've found what the issue is.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00"Just carry on as normal, there will be no issues."
0:13:00 > 0:13:04Daniel turned on the TV to hear the news that the accounts of
0:13:04 > 0:13:08thousands of Tesco banking customers had been compromised.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11I was actually getting more information from the news
0:13:11 > 0:13:15than I had got from the bank when I had rung them up and talked to them,
0:13:15 > 0:13:18which was quite a bizarre situation to be in.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22Daniel then says he received advice which entirely contradicted
0:13:22 > 0:13:24what he'd just been told.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26Then I got another text message saying,
0:13:26 > 0:13:30"Don't use anything, stop using it at all costs.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34"We're going to send you a new card," and all this sort of thing.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36With the call centre saying one thing and
0:13:36 > 0:13:40texts from the bank saying another, Daniel was really worried.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44News reports were emerging saying money was missing
0:13:44 > 0:13:46from 20,000 customers' accounts,
0:13:46 > 0:13:50and although it was later revealed hackers had managed to steal
0:13:50 > 0:13:54£2.5 million from the lower figure of 9,000 accounts,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57even at this early stage, it was clear that, to date,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00this was one of the most high-profile cyber attacks
0:14:00 > 0:14:02on a British bank.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05It was at that point that me and my partner made the decision
0:14:05 > 0:14:07to take the money out of the account
0:14:07 > 0:14:10because we didn't really know what was happening and I needed to get
0:14:10 > 0:14:12fuel for my car, to go to work,
0:14:12 > 0:14:16so I thought, "I don't really want to risk this.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18"This doesn't sound very good."
0:14:18 > 0:14:21With his money now stowed away in his wife's account
0:14:21 > 0:14:24with a different bank, Daniel felt that his money was safe.
0:14:24 > 0:14:27But after more calls and texts to the bank,
0:14:27 > 0:14:31he still wasn't quite sure whether the compromised account
0:14:31 > 0:14:33would now be safe to use again.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36It was disappointing, really. It was just total chaos.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39I still don't really know what's happened,
0:14:39 > 0:14:41I still don't really know why it happened,
0:14:41 > 0:14:43what they've done to fix it, how they resolved it,
0:14:43 > 0:14:45HAVE they resolved it?
0:14:45 > 0:14:47Have they made anything better,
0:14:47 > 0:14:49have they made sure it won't happen again?
0:14:49 > 0:14:51Nobody's told me anything.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55When we put all of this to Tesco Bank,
0:14:55 > 0:14:58it apologised for the worry and inconvenience caused by this issue
0:14:58 > 0:15:03but pointed out that, within 72 hours of the fraud being spotted,
0:15:03 > 0:15:07all customer accounts were refunded in full and the bank communicated
0:15:07 > 0:15:10directly with every customer affected
0:15:10 > 0:15:15to reassure them that they could bank safely, securely and as normal.
0:15:15 > 0:15:20Well, the bank continues to work with regulators and the authorities
0:15:20 > 0:15:21regarding this case
0:15:21 > 0:15:25so we still don't know for sure if the criminals just got lucky
0:15:25 > 0:15:29or if, as had been claimed, there were flaws in the security
0:15:29 > 0:15:33of some of its mobile apps that hadn't yet been addressed.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37Whatever the cause, the attack left not just customers
0:15:37 > 0:15:41but the entire banking industry reeling
0:15:41 > 0:15:43and though, as we'll see later in the programme,
0:15:43 > 0:15:47the vast majority of scams involving banks remain aimed at the customer,
0:15:47 > 0:15:49the Tesco case just underlines
0:15:49 > 0:15:54that the banks themselves are targets, too.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56At Rip-Off Britain, time and time again,
0:15:56 > 0:16:01we hear from people who have become the victims of online banking scams
0:16:01 > 0:16:04and the big question always is, of course,
0:16:04 > 0:16:07how is it that the fraudsters can bypass the security measures
0:16:07 > 0:16:09that the banks have put in place?
0:16:09 > 0:16:12Well, I'm about to meet a man who says he knows exactly
0:16:12 > 0:16:17how the fraudsters are able to crack those hi-tech security barriers
0:16:17 > 0:16:19and get their hands on your money.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23Dr Steven Murdoch is a computer scientist
0:16:23 > 0:16:25here at University College, London,
0:16:25 > 0:16:30and is an expert on online banking security systems.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34What do most banks use as protection for their customers?
0:16:34 > 0:16:37A common one is card readers
0:16:37 > 0:16:41where someone puts their card into a particular device.
0:16:41 > 0:16:42Something like that.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44Many of us who bank online
0:16:44 > 0:16:47will be familiar with these hand-held devices,
0:16:47 > 0:16:51all designed to put extra security steps between customers
0:16:51 > 0:16:52and the fraudsters.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56This generates a code which is then put into the online banking system.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00There's also ones which don't have a card, like this one,
0:17:00 > 0:17:02where you put in your Pin,
0:17:02 > 0:17:05it gives you a code, you type in the number,
0:17:05 > 0:17:07and some other banks will phone you up
0:17:07 > 0:17:12when you're doing a new transaction and then ask you to verify it.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15Are they sufficient? Are these actually effective?
0:17:15 > 0:17:19These sorts of techniques definitely do prevent some types of fraud
0:17:19 > 0:17:22but they are not going to prevent all types of fraud.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26In particular, what criminals have shown they're able to do
0:17:26 > 0:17:29is trick customers into using these devices
0:17:29 > 0:17:31and get them to authorise a transaction
0:17:31 > 0:17:35without the customer actually realising what they're doing.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39So, no matter how good these devices are, as we've seen before,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42by far the most effective way for fraudsters to bypass
0:17:42 > 0:17:44any of the bank's security measures
0:17:44 > 0:17:47is to trick customers into doing it for them
0:17:47 > 0:17:49and Steven wants to show me one way that they do that,
0:17:49 > 0:17:53by demonstrating how a simple e-mail scam can give criminals,
0:17:53 > 0:17:57who could be anywhere in the world, full access to your cash.
0:17:57 > 0:18:03What I'll do is I'll show how this could work with mobile banking.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07So, if we suppose this is the customer's mobile phone...
0:18:07 > 0:18:11So imagine you've received an e-mail from someone you don't recognise and
0:18:11 > 0:18:16there's an attachment that, without thinking, you unwittingly click on.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20Within that attachment could be what's called malware,
0:18:20 > 0:18:24which, once opened, will infect your computer and allow hackers to watch
0:18:24 > 0:18:27everything you do online, including your bank account.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33It's asking for your username so I'll type in any username.
0:18:33 > 0:18:37It's asking for the password so I'll type in any password
0:18:37 > 0:18:40and then it says, "insert your card into your card reader".
0:18:40 > 0:18:43So, while you put that unique number into the login page,
0:18:43 > 0:18:46all the time, hackers could be watching,
0:18:46 > 0:18:48waiting for you to get into your online account.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51- And all this time you think it's genuine?- Yeah, and it says,
0:18:51 > 0:18:53"You're logged in to online banking," and if I continued,
0:18:53 > 0:18:56I'd be able to do all my online banking as normal.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00So while you think you're transferring maybe £25 to pay a bill,
0:19:00 > 0:19:04actually the scammers are taking the maximum amount they can
0:19:04 > 0:19:07without letting warning bells go off within the bank?
0:19:07 > 0:19:10- Yes. - You could lose a lot of money then?
0:19:10 > 0:19:13Yes, people have been known losing tens of thousands of pounds,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16even hundreds of thousands of pounds through techniques like that
0:19:16 > 0:19:19because the criminal might not do just one transaction,
0:19:19 > 0:19:21they might try the same scam multiple times
0:19:21 > 0:19:23and then transfer a lot of money.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25So, here's the advice again.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27Always ignore e-mails
0:19:27 > 0:19:31from anyone you don't know or you weren't expecting
0:19:31 > 0:19:34and treat any unexpected communication from a bank,
0:19:34 > 0:19:37even if it is your own, with extreme caution,
0:19:37 > 0:19:39unless, as Steven reiterates,
0:19:39 > 0:19:41you're absolutely sure it's for real.
0:19:43 > 0:19:47If something changes in the way that you do online banking
0:19:47 > 0:19:49or in the way that your bank talks to you,
0:19:49 > 0:19:51it could be perfectly legitimate.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54Banks change their activities all the time.
0:19:54 > 0:19:59But maybe it's best to check and don't rush into things.
0:19:59 > 0:20:04Criminals want to cause people to rush and they do that because
0:20:04 > 0:20:06people will think less clearly when they're under pressure.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10Take a little bit of time to think about the consequences
0:20:10 > 0:20:12and maybe ask your bank or ask a friend.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15Well, that's all well and good when a fraudster is trying
0:20:15 > 0:20:17to get at the money through YOU.
0:20:17 > 0:20:19If, however, they're targeting your bank,
0:20:19 > 0:20:20as happened in the Tesco case,
0:20:20 > 0:20:23there's very little you can do except hope that the bank
0:20:23 > 0:20:27has enough security procedures in place to stop that kind of attack.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31Back in Aberdare, Daniel considers he had a lucky escape
0:20:31 > 0:20:34but, while he didn't lose money that day,
0:20:34 > 0:20:37and, if he had, he knows he'd have got it back,
0:20:37 > 0:20:40his faith in online banking has never been restored.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44I feel Tesco Bank dealt with me really poorly.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49It was just a total nightmare,
0:20:49 > 0:20:51an absolute catastrophe
0:20:51 > 0:20:56and they've inspired absolutely no confidence in me at all.
0:20:56 > 0:21:01I don't trust them at all and I don't think that I ever could
0:21:01 > 0:21:02after what happened.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13Still to come on Rip-Off Britain, how one of my closest friends
0:21:13 > 0:21:16got embroiled in one of the most widespread bank scams of all,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19and it cost him his entire life savings.
0:21:19 > 0:21:23It makes me feel very, very insecure.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25I'm now entering my 70s.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28How am I going to provide for my old age?
0:21:33 > 0:21:35Our annual pop-up shop
0:21:35 > 0:21:38was this year full to bursting from start to finish,
0:21:38 > 0:21:40giving more opportunities than ever
0:21:40 > 0:21:44for our team of experts to get stuck into solving your problems.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46But how would I have known to install an update?
0:21:46 > 0:21:48That's the question, because they
0:21:48 > 0:21:51- don't seem to have communicated this to you very well.- Not at all.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54Personal finance expert Sarah Pennells
0:21:54 > 0:21:56was tackling issues to do with money
0:21:56 > 0:21:59and Anne Lawton came to see her for advice on some concert tickets
0:21:59 > 0:22:01she'd bought online.
0:22:01 > 0:22:05So, Anne, what's the issue with these tickets?
0:22:05 > 0:22:09I paid £109.99 each for tickets
0:22:09 > 0:22:15and when they arrived, they were valued at £45 each and £7.
0:22:15 > 0:22:19Anne also paid just under £69 in fees.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21It seems, without realising it,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25she'd ended up buying her tickets through a third-party website
0:22:25 > 0:22:28where she'd been charged more than twice the original value,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31but she's unsure how that happened
0:22:31 > 0:22:35when she's adamant the official site was her first port of call.
0:22:35 > 0:22:39And you bought them directly from the venue's own website?
0:22:39 > 0:22:42- Yes, yes.- So, did you know you were going to another company?
0:22:42 > 0:22:46No, I didn't, until I actually got the tickets.
0:22:46 > 0:22:48You have complained to the venue, have you?
0:22:48 > 0:22:50- Yes.- And what have they said?
0:22:50 > 0:22:54Certain ticket people, you can guarantee your tickets are valid.
0:22:54 > 0:22:59From others, of which the one that mine is from, they may not be.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01So they're saying your ticket may not even be valid?
0:23:01 > 0:23:03- Yes.- Goodness!
0:23:03 > 0:23:06But although Anne can't be absolutely sure
0:23:06 > 0:23:07of the tickets' legitimacy,
0:23:07 > 0:23:11it is perfectly legal for anyone to sell on genuine concert tickets,
0:23:11 > 0:23:15so however Anne ended up on that third-party site,
0:23:15 > 0:23:17Sarah fears Anne's options may be limited.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21I don't think there's an easy way you're going to get your money back.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24- No.- Because the whole model of ticket resellers
0:23:24 > 0:23:28- is to mark up the price and sell them on.- Yes.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33So Sarah thinks the only realistic option is to use the tickets,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35hope they're genuine
0:23:35 > 0:23:38and put the eye-watering cost down to experience.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Go to your concert, enjoy yourself, have a good time.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44- If we get in! - Let me know if you can't get in.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49Well, the good news is that Anne's tickets were the real deal.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52And although she paid handsomely for the experience,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55she's reported back to us that she had a great time.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00And since our pop-up shop, new legislation has been proposed
0:24:00 > 0:24:03which aims to increase transparency and regulation
0:24:03 > 0:24:05around the sale of concert tickets
0:24:05 > 0:24:08and we'll be returning to the subject later in the series.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16Now earlier in the programme, we heard just how far criminals
0:24:16 > 0:24:19are prepared to go to get their hands on other people's money
0:24:19 > 0:24:22and, what's more, they can be so convincing that it's becoming
0:24:22 > 0:24:25increasingly tricky to spot the warning signs
0:24:25 > 0:24:27that you might be about to be duped.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30Well, that's certainly something that a very close friend of mine
0:24:30 > 0:24:32has found to his cost.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35Though it's always horrible to hear about anyone being conned
0:24:35 > 0:24:39out of anything, it's particularly hard to watch someone you really
0:24:39 > 0:24:42care about going through such a dreadful experience as this.
0:24:45 > 0:24:47As we've heard throughout the programme,
0:24:47 > 0:24:50we all need to be on our guard against the fraudsters
0:24:50 > 0:24:52trying to get access to our bank accounts.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55Trouble is, the elaborate lies they'll come up with to gain your trust
0:24:55 > 0:24:59are increasingly inventive, whether they're impersonating your bank
0:24:59 > 0:25:03or, as we hear more and more, pretending to be from the police,
0:25:03 > 0:25:07claiming your help is needed for some sort of undercover operation
0:25:07 > 0:25:09to keep your money safe.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened
0:25:11 > 0:25:14to one of my dearest friends.
0:25:14 > 0:25:17He fell for a scam that cost him his entire life savings.
0:25:20 > 0:25:24'Jonathon Keats is a retired teacher and we go way back.'
0:25:24 > 0:25:26- Hi.- Hello.
0:25:26 > 0:25:30'So, when I received a phone call from him in a frantic state in 2015,
0:25:30 > 0:25:32'I was terribly concerned.'
0:25:32 > 0:25:35- Go in here?- Yes, in there, please.
0:25:35 > 0:25:39So, Jonno, we've known each other for quite a long time, haven't we?
0:25:39 > 0:25:41Yes, about 20 years.
0:25:41 > 0:25:42Wow, that is a long time.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44Yes.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48It was one afternoon in November 2015 that Jonno received an e-mail
0:25:48 > 0:25:52supposedly from NatWest Bank warning him that several attempts had been
0:25:52 > 0:25:55made to hack into his online bank account
0:25:55 > 0:25:58and urgent action was required.
0:25:58 > 0:26:02So, Jonno, this is the e-mail that popped up in your account.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05Yes, this is it.
0:26:05 > 0:26:06From NatWest...
0:26:06 > 0:26:08Helpful Banking, yes.
0:26:08 > 0:26:12When I look at this, I see that it's first of all headlined,
0:26:12 > 0:26:14"RE multiple failed login attempts,"
0:26:14 > 0:26:17- so that kind of sets you on edge, presumably.- Yes.
0:26:17 > 0:26:23What kind of really scared me was this note which says,
0:26:23 > 0:26:28"Failure to restore full access can lead to permanent suspension
0:26:28 > 0:26:31"of access to our online banking service."
0:26:31 > 0:26:33I mean, how did you feel when you saw that?
0:26:33 > 0:26:37I thought, "Good God, somebody's got into my account."
0:26:37 > 0:26:42So immediately I had to ring this number.
0:26:42 > 0:26:46Now, given that Jonno's entire life savings were in this account,
0:26:46 > 0:26:49a total of £120,000, he panicked,
0:26:49 > 0:26:53called the number on the e-mail and found himself speaking to
0:26:53 > 0:26:56someone apparently in the NatWest fraud department.
0:26:56 > 0:27:03He said the NatWest security department thought that fraud was
0:27:03 > 0:27:09taking place, small sums were being withdrawn from my account and from
0:27:09 > 0:27:12other accounts in the branch,
0:27:12 > 0:27:16and they wanted to catch the person involved in the branch.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18And he wanted to get you involved?
0:27:18 > 0:27:22Yes, he wanted to get me involved. Would I agree to do this?
0:27:22 > 0:27:25And I, of course, said yes.
0:27:27 > 0:27:30Jonno was told by this person, who was using the name Graham,
0:27:30 > 0:27:34that his help was needed in a top-secret internal investigation
0:27:34 > 0:27:37and the first priority was to keep his own money safe,
0:27:37 > 0:27:41so he'd have to transfer his savings out of his NatWest account
0:27:41 > 0:27:44and into a safe one at another bank entirely, Lloyds.
0:27:44 > 0:27:48Didn't that strike you as a bit odd? Did you think, "Why me?"?
0:27:48 > 0:27:53No, I suppose that one side of me, one ridiculous, naive side of me
0:27:53 > 0:27:56thought, "Gosh, this is flattering,
0:27:56 > 0:28:02"I'm being involved in an operation to get the bad guys,"
0:28:02 > 0:28:06and so I joined in.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09I thought, "Yes, yup, get them."
0:28:09 > 0:28:12He tickled my vanity, there's no doubt about that.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17And Graham, who of course, in reality, had nothing to do
0:28:17 > 0:28:21with the NatWest fraud department and was an out-and-out fraudster,
0:28:21 > 0:28:25warned Jonno he had to act fast and get down to his local branch
0:28:25 > 0:28:27to transfer the money in person.
0:28:28 > 0:28:32I put on my coat and I went down to the bank,
0:28:32 > 0:28:38and then I would make this transfer of £120,000.
0:28:39 > 0:28:43So-called Graham had even come up with an explanation
0:28:43 > 0:28:46for what Jonno should say if bank staff queried what he was doing.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50He was to tell them he'd found a better interest rate elsewhere,
0:28:50 > 0:28:53but it was a line he wasn't sure would work.
0:28:53 > 0:28:55I was also thinking,
0:28:55 > 0:29:00"How the monkey's am I going to convince the bank
0:29:00 > 0:29:05"that I want to move this vast sum
0:29:05 > 0:29:10"because I'm going to get a better rate of interest at Lloyds?"
0:29:10 > 0:29:15And I thought, "They'll take me into a room or something like that
0:29:15 > 0:29:19"and sit me down in front of the computer and show me
0:29:19 > 0:29:21"how their rate of interest is better than Lloyds,"
0:29:21 > 0:29:26and they'll completely destroy the deception
0:29:26 > 0:29:28that he had put me up to making.
0:29:28 > 0:29:32So, if you're feeling this sort of discomfort with the idea,
0:29:32 > 0:29:34why didn't you just kind of say,
0:29:34 > 0:29:37"OK, I'm not going to do this thing"?
0:29:37 > 0:29:38I don't know.
0:29:38 > 0:29:45I think I felt that I must go through with it, it is important,
0:29:45 > 0:29:51so I'll do it because something good will come out of it.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54But there was nothing good about this situation.
0:29:54 > 0:29:59Though convinced he was taking part in a major undercover investigation,
0:29:59 > 0:30:03Jonno was about to hand over his life savings to a fraudster.
0:30:05 > 0:30:07So, Jonno, we've reached the scene of the crime.
0:30:07 > 0:30:10- Yes.- Describe what happened when you went in there.
0:30:10 > 0:30:15When I went in, to transfer £120,000 from my deposit account
0:30:15 > 0:30:18to the Lloyds account which the fraudster had given me
0:30:18 > 0:30:22the number of, the cashier started to make the transfer.
0:30:22 > 0:30:28At this point, the assistant manager came to stand behind her.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32What seemed extraordinary to me, then as now,
0:30:32 > 0:30:36was that there was a total silence on the part of both of them.
0:30:36 > 0:30:40I was not asked any questions about why I was moving this enormous sum
0:30:40 > 0:30:43to an account outside the bank.
0:30:43 > 0:30:45It was simply allowed to go through.
0:30:45 > 0:30:47All I was told was,
0:30:47 > 0:30:52"This will take until about 5pm for it to go through."
0:30:53 > 0:30:59When I came out of the bank, I reported to him what had happened,
0:30:59 > 0:31:02and he was very surprised
0:31:02 > 0:31:08that there were no questions asked at all about the transfer.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11It was all too easy for the fraudster
0:31:11 > 0:31:14and, by five o'clock that evening,
0:31:14 > 0:31:17the money was transferred out of Jonno's account
0:31:17 > 0:31:21and into the hands of criminals, and Jonno's life savings had vanished.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25But so caught up was he in the drama that it wasn't until he got home and
0:31:25 > 0:31:29reflected on what had happened that the sinking realisation he'd most
0:31:29 > 0:31:33likely been conned began to dawn, and that's when he rang me.
0:31:34 > 0:31:38Now, as I remember it, you rang us that evening, didn't you?
0:31:38 > 0:31:42Yes, I did, and I was in,
0:31:42 > 0:31:44as you may recall,
0:31:44 > 0:31:46a state, basically,
0:31:46 > 0:31:50and you very kindly said
0:31:50 > 0:31:56that you would come when I went for my interview about this
0:31:56 > 0:31:59with the private banking manager.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01I remember that meeting, because he said,
0:32:01 > 0:32:03"The key to this whole saga
0:32:03 > 0:32:06"lies with what happened here at the bank," didn't he?
0:32:06 > 0:32:08That's it, yes.
0:32:08 > 0:32:11Now, at this point, there's a key disagreement between
0:32:11 > 0:32:14Jonno's recollection of events and what his bank says happened.
0:32:14 > 0:32:18While Jonno insists the counter staff didn't quiz him over
0:32:18 > 0:32:22why he was removing so much money, NatWest is adamant they did.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25In a letter, it said that, in response to their questions,
0:32:25 > 0:32:27Jonno had told them he'd found an account offering
0:32:27 > 0:32:30a better interest rate and suggested he perhaps hadn't realised
0:32:30 > 0:32:32he was being asked that question.
0:32:32 > 0:32:36Well, Jonno insists he recalls no such conversation,
0:32:36 > 0:32:38and he rejects the idea that he could have missed
0:32:38 > 0:32:40being asked such a key question.
0:32:40 > 0:32:44He says, if challenged, he wouldn't have been able to keep up the act
0:32:44 > 0:32:46and simply wouldn't have gone through with it.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48But, either way, NatWest said that,
0:32:48 > 0:32:51because Jonno willingly transferred the money,
0:32:51 > 0:32:54this couldn't be considered as fraud and, as such,
0:32:54 > 0:32:58the bank wouldn't be able to refund any of the money he'd lost.
0:32:58 > 0:33:00Devastated by this,
0:33:00 > 0:33:03Jonno took his case to the Financial Ombudsman Service,
0:33:03 > 0:33:06but it agreed with the bank, concluding that,
0:33:06 > 0:33:08as it was Jonno who'd moved the money,
0:33:08 > 0:33:11there was little that the cashier could have done to prevent this
0:33:11 > 0:33:14from happening, even if they had asked more questions.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17And all that was reiterated by NatWest
0:33:17 > 0:33:20when we got in touch about the case.
0:33:20 > 0:33:24The bank says, while it knows how distressing it can be when customers
0:33:24 > 0:33:27fall victim to a scam, and it does everything that it can
0:33:27 > 0:33:31to keep customers safe and secure, ultimately, scams like these
0:33:31 > 0:33:35rely on genuine customers authorising the transfer
0:33:35 > 0:33:39and, in this case, it maintains staff did question Jonno
0:33:39 > 0:33:43but he was insistent he wanted the payment to proceed.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46But there was a further twist to come
0:33:46 > 0:33:50and it came to light after we got in touch with the police.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52An investigation into Jonno's case
0:33:52 > 0:33:54had uncovered how the scam had unfolded
0:33:54 > 0:33:58and exposed the elaborate planning the fraudsters had gone to,
0:33:58 > 0:34:01not just to set the whole thing up but also to cover their tracks.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08The investigation found that,
0:34:08 > 0:34:11after Jonno's money had been paid into Lloyds,
0:34:11 > 0:34:15it was quickly dispersed between no fewer than 11 other accounts,
0:34:15 > 0:34:17making it very difficult to trace.
0:34:17 > 0:34:20In fact, the police had to get separate court orders
0:34:20 > 0:34:23before they could gain access to each of these accounts,
0:34:23 > 0:34:25by which time they'd all been emptied,
0:34:25 > 0:34:27except, that is, for one,
0:34:27 > 0:34:31which still had £25,000 left
0:34:31 > 0:34:35and this was, I'm pleased to say, transferred back to Jonno.
0:34:35 > 0:34:39In addition, Jonno told us some more of his money has been recovered
0:34:39 > 0:34:42and returned to him, a total of £40,500.
0:34:43 > 0:34:47So, although that means he's had back almost £66,000,
0:34:47 > 0:34:53it still leaves him more than £53,000 out of pocket.
0:34:56 > 0:34:59But the police investigation went on to raise questions about how
0:34:59 > 0:35:02the fraudster was able to open the Lloyds account in the first place.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05By law, the bank should make proper checks on people
0:35:05 > 0:35:07wishing to open bank accounts,
0:35:07 > 0:35:09but the police found, in this instance,
0:35:09 > 0:35:12that the Lloyds account had been opened up by someone using
0:35:12 > 0:35:14tenancy agreements full of spelling mistakes
0:35:14 > 0:35:17and that other documents used to open the account were illegible.
0:35:19 > 0:35:23The Met Police went on to tell us they believe this raises serious
0:35:23 > 0:35:26concerns about whether Lloyds carried out its due diligence.
0:35:28 > 0:35:30When we put that to Lloyds,
0:35:30 > 0:35:33it told us this was the first time it had heard such a suggestion,
0:35:33 > 0:35:37but it had co-operated fully with the police investigation
0:35:37 > 0:35:40and supplied all evidence requested.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42The bank says its commitment to fraud prevention
0:35:42 > 0:35:47is industry-leading, and it carries out stringent account opening checks
0:35:47 > 0:35:50to ensure it is dealing with a genuine customer
0:35:50 > 0:35:54at the time an account is opened and, after reviewing its records,
0:35:54 > 0:35:57it's confident staff did do everything properly
0:35:57 > 0:36:00on this particular occasion.
0:36:01 > 0:36:03Well, though the banks maintain cases such as this one
0:36:03 > 0:36:05are not down to them,
0:36:05 > 0:36:08Jonno thinks they are too quick to remove themselves from any
0:36:08 > 0:36:10responsibility, while accepting, of course,
0:36:10 > 0:36:13his own role in everything that happened.
0:36:13 > 0:36:16But you wouldn't argue with the basic point,
0:36:16 > 0:36:20that actually you WERE responsible, you did it to yourself,
0:36:20 > 0:36:23in the sense that you fell for a scam...
0:36:23 > 0:36:27- Yes.- ..and you went along with what the scammer wanted you to do.
0:36:27 > 0:36:32Yes, I acknowledge that, but I still think that, under the circumstances,
0:36:32 > 0:36:39they had a duty, they had an opportunity to hold me back
0:36:39 > 0:36:42at a crucial point, which they could have done.
0:36:44 > 0:36:46And that's a view which others
0:36:46 > 0:36:48who have been similarly conned would share.
0:36:48 > 0:36:50We've featured many such cases before
0:36:50 > 0:36:54and, though the lies that convinced them may have differed,
0:36:54 > 0:36:55the end result was the same -
0:36:55 > 0:36:59fraudsters seduced them into handing over tens of thousands of pounds.
0:36:59 > 0:37:04This guy's saying that he's a serious fraud officer
0:37:04 > 0:37:06and they were working with the bank.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09They'd been into my Santander account
0:37:09 > 0:37:12and tried both of my credit cards.
0:37:12 > 0:37:14They said they were from the fraud squad.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17I didn't want to lose money, and so I believed what he said.
0:37:20 > 0:37:23So, unfortunately for Jonno, he's now joined the ranks
0:37:23 > 0:37:25of those victims of scams who have been made to feel
0:37:25 > 0:37:29it's all their own fault and, because of that,
0:37:29 > 0:37:31unlike some of the other cases we've heard about today,
0:37:31 > 0:37:33they won't be reimbursed.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37Well, we know a lot of you feel that's not just harsh
0:37:37 > 0:37:39but perhaps even unfair.
0:37:39 > 0:37:43So, when Angela went to meet the organisation that works with banks
0:37:43 > 0:37:47and finance companies to tackle fraud, Financial Fraud Action UK,
0:37:47 > 0:37:50that was a point she was particularly keen to raise.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53We've been looking at figures which suggest that,
0:37:53 > 0:37:57year-on-year for four years, there has been an increase in fraud.
0:37:57 > 0:37:58All of that suggests that
0:37:58 > 0:38:02the banks aren't doing a terribly good job of protecting our money.
0:38:02 > 0:38:05The banks are obviously really extremely concerned about this.
0:38:05 > 0:38:06It's the big thing for them
0:38:06 > 0:38:09to make sure that the customers are protected, and, in fact,
0:38:09 > 0:38:13they prevent about £6.40 in every £10 of fraud attempted.
0:38:13 > 0:38:18But what the fraudsters are doing is turning to target the consumers
0:38:18 > 0:38:21individually as the weakest point in the chain,
0:38:21 > 0:38:23and it's that that we've got to try and close down on.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26And yet there is still the perception
0:38:26 > 0:38:30within the banking industry that there is a blame culture,
0:38:30 > 0:38:34that when someone finds that they have become a victim of fraud,
0:38:34 > 0:38:39whether it's using their credit card or online banking or whatever,
0:38:39 > 0:38:42that they are the ones who are put in the position of having to prove
0:38:42 > 0:38:44that they are the victims.
0:38:44 > 0:38:50So I think that, in most cases, the victim is treated as that.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53They don't have to prove that they are a victim.
0:38:53 > 0:38:57They are actually given the benefit of understanding
0:38:57 > 0:38:59that they are a victim of fraud.
0:38:59 > 0:39:03- Not always. - No, well, every case is different,
0:39:03 > 0:39:05and it's not always until you start looking at it
0:39:05 > 0:39:07you realise what's happened.
0:39:07 > 0:39:08You've virtually admitted, then,
0:39:08 > 0:39:12that it is a situation where someone is a victim of a scam,
0:39:12 > 0:39:15it is not something that they've done purposefully.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18- Mm-hm.- You can't keep blaming the consumer.
0:39:18 > 0:39:20These scam merchants are very persuasive,
0:39:20 > 0:39:22they're very professional.
0:39:22 > 0:39:27What more can be done to protect the public from that kind of scam?
0:39:27 > 0:39:30It's no good just saying, "Well, I'm sorry,
0:39:30 > 0:39:32"buyer beware, but it's your fault."
0:39:32 > 0:39:35Surely the banks are complicit in this as well.
0:39:35 > 0:39:37No, they're not complicit.
0:39:37 > 0:39:41I think the banks are trying to improve the way in which victims
0:39:41 > 0:39:45are dealt with, to get moving as quickly as possible,
0:39:45 > 0:39:49because the problem is, the money moves extremely quickly
0:39:49 > 0:39:51from one account to another in those cases.
0:39:51 > 0:39:56Can you put your hand on your heart and say honestly that the FFA
0:39:56 > 0:40:00and the banks in this country are doing everything possible to protect
0:40:00 > 0:40:01their customers?
0:40:01 > 0:40:03Yes, they are.
0:40:03 > 0:40:06I mean, absolutely. I work with the fraud guys, the fraud managers,
0:40:06 > 0:40:11and I know how much they personally feel that they want to make their
0:40:11 > 0:40:14banks secure and the customers as safe as possible,
0:40:14 > 0:40:17so they are doing everything they can,
0:40:17 > 0:40:20but it is an ongoing battle. It changes day by day.
0:40:20 > 0:40:24So, if the FFA and the banking system are, as you say,
0:40:24 > 0:40:26doing their very best to protect our money,
0:40:26 > 0:40:30what can the consumer do to protect themselves and their money?
0:40:30 > 0:40:33If someone's putting you under pressure, take back control.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36Don't give away Pins and passwords
0:40:36 > 0:40:38just because someone has got a bit of information about you
0:40:38 > 0:40:40and says they are from the police.
0:40:40 > 0:40:44Just stop and think for a moment, and I think, if we did that,
0:40:44 > 0:40:47that we would overcome a lot of the issues
0:40:47 > 0:40:48that we are seeing at the moment.
0:40:50 > 0:40:52Well, that really is the key advice.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55Be very sceptical of any contact from someone
0:40:55 > 0:40:58who contacts you out of the blue about your bank account,
0:40:58 > 0:41:02especially if they are saying you need to transfer any funds.
0:41:02 > 0:41:06I know Jonno bitterly regrets not taking the time to check out
0:41:06 > 0:41:08what he was being told.
0:41:08 > 0:41:12So, Jonno, now you've had this horrible experience,
0:41:12 > 0:41:15has it affected the way your retirement was going to play out?
0:41:15 > 0:41:19Yes, it makes me feel very, very insecure.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22I'm now entering my 70s.
0:41:22 > 0:41:25How am I going to provide for my old age?
0:41:25 > 0:41:31I'm deeply unsatisfied with the bank's response and I'm suspicious.
0:41:31 > 0:41:37I don't enter the bank with trust, as I did before.
0:41:37 > 0:41:41And that is the thing which, I think,
0:41:41 > 0:41:46that loss of trust, is what hurts me more than anything.
0:41:55 > 0:41:58If you've got a story you'd like us to investigate,
0:41:58 > 0:42:02then get in touch with us via our Facebook page, BBC Rip-Off Britain,
0:42:02 > 0:42:07our website, bbc.co.uk/ripoffbritain,
0:42:07 > 0:42:09or e-mail...
0:42:12 > 0:42:15Or, if you want to send us a letter...
0:42:28 > 0:42:29Well, as you might imagine, for me,
0:42:29 > 0:42:32hearing all those people's experiences
0:42:32 > 0:42:34really did bring back all the horrible feelings I had
0:42:34 > 0:42:37when money was stolen from my bank savings account,
0:42:37 > 0:42:40so I very much sympathise with what they've all been through.
0:42:40 > 0:42:42And while, of course, I can only speak for myself here,
0:42:42 > 0:42:45I genuinely have been left feeling very vulnerable and unsure
0:42:45 > 0:42:48as to who to trust, which is a real shame,
0:42:48 > 0:42:50because in life I never felt like that before.
0:42:50 > 0:42:52No, but hopefully, Gloria, it was reassuring to hear
0:42:52 > 0:42:55all of the things that are being done to protect us from these types
0:42:55 > 0:42:57of frauds, and it does seem that,
0:42:57 > 0:42:59whilst there is obviously still a long way to go,
0:42:59 > 0:43:02all the high-profile cases that we read about in the papers,
0:43:02 > 0:43:04including yours, Gloria, are
0:43:04 > 0:43:08at least making the banks tighten up all of their security systems
0:43:08 > 0:43:11to at least try and minimise the chance of the same thing
0:43:11 > 0:43:12happening to anyone else.
0:43:12 > 0:43:14What struck me, though, was the sheer audacity
0:43:14 > 0:43:17of some of the criminals in these attacks, and just how far
0:43:17 > 0:43:21they are prepared to go to get their hands on someone else's money.
0:43:21 > 0:43:23It's all thoroughly unsettling.
0:43:23 > 0:43:27So it's really worth being extra cautious when you answer the phone
0:43:27 > 0:43:29or click on an e-mail.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32A single moment of reflection could save an awful lot of hassle
0:43:32 > 0:43:34and heartbreak further down the line.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37Well, on that note, it's time for us to leave you
0:43:37 > 0:43:39but, until the next time, from all of us, goodbye.
0:43:39 > 0:43:40- Bye-bye.- Goodbye.