0:00:02 > 0:00:06On Crime And Punishment today, 60 years of change in prisons and the police.
0:00:06 > 0:00:09Here in Bristol Prison, teaching literacy is helping to reduce crime.
0:00:09 > 0:00:13I'm in the West Midlands where police are pouncing on paedophiles
0:00:13 > 0:00:15using the web.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35The internet is now an essential part of our lives
0:00:35 > 0:00:38but like all innovations, it's open to abuse,
0:00:38 > 0:00:41especially by paedophiles. Here in the West Midlands,
0:00:41 > 0:00:44police have formed a special team to catch them.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47It's a subject that can be upsetting.
0:00:49 > 0:00:54These West Midlands police officers are carrying out a dawn raid.
0:00:54 > 0:00:58On most raids, the officers announce their arrival but on this one,
0:00:58 > 0:01:03it's vital that no-one sees or hears them approach the house.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07Police intelligence has suggested that indecent images of children
0:01:07 > 0:01:12are being collected and distributed by somebody at this address.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18POLICE! Stay where you are!
0:01:21 > 0:01:24Today's operation is Operation Vulcan.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28The West Midlands Police Child Online Safeguarding Team was set up
0:01:28 > 0:01:31ten years ago to deal with the increasing number of paedophiles
0:01:31 > 0:01:34using the internet to store and distribute
0:01:34 > 0:01:37indecent images of children,
0:01:37 > 0:01:42new technology facilitating the age-old crime of sexual abuse of minors.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45Detective Inspector Kay Wallace heads up the unit.
0:01:45 > 0:01:50Paedophilic activity, it would be safe to say, has changed
0:01:50 > 0:01:51over a period of time,
0:01:51 > 0:01:55and probably more noticeably over the last ten years,
0:01:55 > 0:01:59certainly the last five years, paedophilic activity using the internet
0:01:59 > 0:02:04as a facility to share indecent images of children
0:02:04 > 0:02:06has grown massively.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10Over 80% of people who possess and distribute images of children
0:02:10 > 0:02:14themselves do undertake on hands-on abuse of children.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16That's what's so concerning.
0:02:16 > 0:02:18The man they're looking for isn't there.
0:02:18 > 0:02:23But they've been given another address for him and they've no intention of letting him go.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28The internet has opened a whole new world for paedophiles.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31It's like people who play games on the internet
0:02:31 > 0:02:37and go into virtual worlds and they can become Venus Warrior Princess.
0:02:37 > 0:02:42The internet allows you to do that as well in terms of being an offender.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44You can offend in your bedroom
0:02:44 > 0:02:46and nobody will know, nobody will possibly know
0:02:46 > 0:02:51that I'm possessing images of children, looking at them and distributing them.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Actually, we will know and we do know and we do tackle it.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58Three years ago, this unit's work put behind bars
0:02:58 > 0:03:01the man who'd sexually abused Nathan Hale.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06It began when he was 14 years old, living with his grandparents.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15It was the start of summer and me and my friends went to play football
0:03:15 > 0:03:20within the local park. We were approached by a man who said
0:03:20 > 0:03:23he was keen on football.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29We thought it was a bit strange that he was 28
0:03:29 > 0:03:32and he wanted to play football with a bunch of lads
0:03:32 > 0:03:35but he was passionate about his football so we thought nothing of it,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38we thought he was another guy who's lonely,
0:03:38 > 0:03:40a bit over-friendly but that was it.
0:03:41 > 0:03:46When Nathan's computer broke down, Paul Gardner offered to fix it.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49He spent a long time chatting to Nathan's grandparents,
0:03:49 > 0:03:52worming his way in to become a family friend
0:03:52 > 0:03:57so that they had no worries about him being alone with Nathan in his room.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59That's when the sexual abuse started.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02It started by touching of legs, etc.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06And then he found out about me struggling with my sexuality.
0:04:06 > 0:04:07That was the worst moment.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18I knew it was wrong. One of his phrases was,
0:04:18 > 0:04:22"You know you want to explore your sexuality."
0:04:22 > 0:04:24But then I realised it was actually wrong.
0:04:24 > 0:04:29He is a 28-year-old man and I'm only a child.
0:04:29 > 0:04:35Gardner kept control by threatening to tell Nathan's grandparents he was gay.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37Them being from a different generation,
0:04:37 > 0:04:41I thought they'd abandon me too. The thought of all of that...
0:04:42 > 0:04:46..became enough to buy my silence
0:04:46 > 0:04:49and to let it continue to happen.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53The abuse went on for two years,
0:04:53 > 0:04:56only stopping when Gardner moved out of the area.
0:04:56 > 0:05:01It left Nathan in turmoil, subject to flashbacks and nightmares.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04He became withdrawn and was bullied at school.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06He even attempted suicide.
0:05:07 > 0:05:12Looking back on it, it is difficult for me
0:05:12 > 0:05:14because I still don't have the answer why.
0:05:14 > 0:05:18I'd always like to ask him why me,
0:05:18 > 0:05:23why me out of all the 14, 15 boys that we played football with.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29To his credit, Nathan eventually started to get his life together,
0:05:29 > 0:05:33studying hard to be a chef. Then, at the age of 19,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36travelling back from a work placement in Portugal,
0:05:36 > 0:05:41he was met at the airport by police officers from Birmingham's Child Online Safeguarding Team.
0:05:41 > 0:05:47They had arrested Paul Gardner on charges of abusing another child
0:05:47 > 0:05:51and when they seized his computer, far more came to light.
0:05:51 > 0:05:56There were in excess of 15,000 indecent images of children.
0:05:56 > 0:06:03And equally multiple films of children being abused by Gardner,
0:06:03 > 0:06:06which he had filmed using his mobile phone.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10Nathan was one of those children.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13His image was on Gardner's computer.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16It was a matter of my office unpicking all of that
0:06:16 > 0:06:19and trying to make sense of the victims -
0:06:19 > 0:06:25who they were, approaching them, getting their testimony as to what had happened to them.
0:06:25 > 0:06:30And trying to pull together a case that truly reflected
0:06:30 > 0:06:32the abuse he'd undertaken.
0:06:32 > 0:06:37Gardner was convicted of 34 charges of abusing
0:06:37 > 0:06:41and taking indecent images of children aged three to fifteen.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44He was jailed indefinitely.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49That case was a success story for DI Kay Wallace and her team.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52But paedophiles will always be with us
0:06:52 > 0:06:54so the police must remain vigilant.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58They now have a second location for the man they were looking for this morning.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01We've got the warrant. We're going to that address now.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04We'll be back with Kay as the net tightens.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15One of the most memorable murder cases of modern times
0:07:15 > 0:07:18unfolded in the Cambridgeshire village of Soham,
0:07:18 > 0:07:20nearly ten years ago.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22It began with the disappearance of two little girls.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27August 4th, 2002, a quiet Sunday
0:07:27 > 0:07:30in the village of Soham, Cambridgeshire.
0:07:30 > 0:07:3310-year-olds Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells
0:07:33 > 0:07:35had been enjoying a family barbecue.
0:07:35 > 0:07:37Holly's mum takes this picture.
0:07:38 > 0:07:43Less than an hour later, the girls go out to buy sweets from the nearby sports centre.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46Thinking the girls are still playing upstairs,
0:07:46 > 0:07:49it isn't until 8.30 that evening
0:07:49 > 0:07:53Holly's parents discover Holly and Jessica are missing.
0:07:54 > 0:07:58Police begin one of the biggest searches ever known,
0:07:58 > 0:08:03involving 24 different forces, as well as many local volunteers.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07Holly and Jessica's parents appeal for help in finding the girls.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10Give them back, just give them back.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13Just put an end to all of this for them.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16We miss them so much.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21Police interview many villagers,
0:08:21 > 0:08:24including the caretaker of nearby Soham Village College.
0:08:24 > 0:08:2729-year-old Ian Huntley tells police he's seen the girls
0:08:27 > 0:08:30outside his home the evening they disappeared.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34It's just very upsetting, you know?
0:08:34 > 0:08:39To think that I might be the last friendly face that these two girls had to speak to.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44Following this admission, Huntley, amongst others,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47is now under suspicion.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50Although media depictions of murder
0:08:50 > 0:08:55tend to concentrate upon unknown assailants,
0:08:55 > 0:08:58actually what we know is that most homicides happen
0:08:58 > 0:09:00between people who know each other.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03That structures the way the police approach them.
0:09:03 > 0:09:08And in the Soham case, Huntley certainly fitted that description
0:09:08 > 0:09:11and will probably have come in quite early as a possible suspect,
0:09:11 > 0:09:17even though there wasn't anything necessarily pointing to him being a prime suspect at that point.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22But the police have a problem. Huntley has been given an alibi
0:09:22 > 0:09:24by his girlfriend, Maxine Carr.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27I was in the back at the time and like I said to everybody else,
0:09:27 > 0:09:30if I'd been downstairs, I'd probably have been talking to them outside,
0:09:30 > 0:09:33asking them where they were going, what they were doing.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38The impact of the disappearance of Holly and Jessica
0:09:38 > 0:09:42spreads beyond the local community and provokes a national response.
0:09:43 > 0:09:48You are talking about thousands of bits of information coming in
0:09:48 > 0:09:51every day for the first few days.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54I've worked with murder squads where this has happened.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56The atmosphere is really quite difficult
0:09:56 > 0:09:59because you can feel the public pressure upon you.
0:09:59 > 0:10:00You know people are watching
0:10:00 > 0:10:05and that if you get this wrong, there are going to be serious repercussions.
0:10:10 > 0:10:1312 days after the girls' disappearance,
0:10:13 > 0:10:15new information reveals Jessica's mobile phone
0:10:15 > 0:10:19had been switched off inside Huntley's home.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22Huntley and Maxine Carr agreed to the search of their home
0:10:22 > 0:10:25and the college where Huntley works. There,
0:10:25 > 0:10:28in the very building the girls' parents appealed for help,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32police make a discovery that changes the course of the investigation.
0:10:33 > 0:10:38Holly and Jessica's clothing had been found in the hangar in the college grounds.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42Their net is closing in on Huntley and within hours,
0:10:42 > 0:10:45all hope in Soham is lost as the girls' bodies are discovered,
0:10:45 > 0:10:48buried a few miles away.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr are arrested
0:10:53 > 0:10:55on suspicion of murder.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59And Soham begins to mourn.
0:11:02 > 0:11:07On the 17th December, 2003, after a six-week trial,
0:11:07 > 0:11:11Ian Huntley was found guilty of the murder of Holly and Jessica,
0:11:11 > 0:11:15and Maxine Carr, guilty of conspiring to pervert the course of justice.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17But what the jury was never told
0:11:17 > 0:11:20was that Ian Huntley had previously been involved
0:11:20 > 0:11:24in a number of sexual allegations, many with underage girls
0:11:24 > 0:11:26in his hometown of Grimsby.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30Humberside Police had investigated a series of incidents,
0:11:30 > 0:11:32including burglary, but this information
0:11:32 > 0:11:34wasn't kept on their systems.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38So when Soham Village College did a police check on Huntley,
0:11:38 > 0:11:43at the time of his appointment, it came back with an all-clear.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47People are dismayed, hearing that a man with that sort of background
0:11:47 > 0:11:48was put in a position of trust,
0:11:48 > 0:11:55by me, and was...mixing with our children.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58I couldn't express just how dismayed,
0:11:58 > 0:12:00I feel physically sick, actually,
0:12:00 > 0:12:03to think that was the background of a man that was appointed here.
0:12:04 > 0:12:08That vital information wasn't even available to the police
0:12:08 > 0:12:11investigating the disappearance of the girls.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13When I went to the scene,
0:12:13 > 0:12:19what struck me was how close his house was to where the victims were last seen.
0:12:19 > 0:12:22I know that the officers engaged on this inquiry
0:12:22 > 0:12:28think that was a real mistake, that they missed the fact
0:12:28 > 0:12:31that here we had an individual who was in the vicinity,
0:12:31 > 0:12:35known to the victims and he wasn't identified as a prime suspect
0:12:35 > 0:12:37as soon as he should have been.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Humberside Police defended their actions by saying
0:12:40 > 0:12:43they had destroyed information about previous allegations
0:12:43 > 0:12:46to comply with the Data Protection Act.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48Certainly, I am sorry
0:12:48 > 0:12:50that the force had weaknesses in its systems.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53I am sorry there were individual failings.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58However, the fact remains that there was nothing on the system
0:12:58 > 0:13:02and there was nothing on the system
0:13:02 > 0:13:06due to an honest...an honest and forthright attempt
0:13:06 > 0:13:09to be compliant with the Data Protection Act.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12I know there's been some research that's looked
0:13:12 > 0:13:15at how different individual forces apply the Data Protection Act
0:13:15 > 0:13:18and they develop very different standards,
0:13:18 > 0:13:21but nevertheless the Data Protection Act is quite clear
0:13:21 > 0:13:25that the police can hold this sort of information and can share it.
0:13:25 > 0:13:30The things that were going on in Humberside, I think it's widely agreed, should not have happened.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33A year after the girls' death,
0:13:33 > 0:13:36Lord Bichard led an inquiry, investigating the failure
0:13:36 > 0:13:38to share information between forces.
0:13:38 > 0:13:44I have discovered errors, omissions, failures and shortcomings
0:13:44 > 0:13:45which are deeply shocking
0:13:45 > 0:13:50and which meant, for example, there was not one single occasion,
0:13:50 > 0:13:52in all of the contacts with Huntley,
0:13:52 > 0:13:57including eight sexual offence allegations notified to Humberside Police,
0:13:57 > 0:14:01when the records systems worked properly.
0:14:01 > 0:14:03Amongst 31 other recommendations,
0:14:03 > 0:14:06Lord Bichard proposed the urgent introduction
0:14:06 > 0:14:08of a national police intelligence system.
0:14:08 > 0:14:13Previously, police had to request information from other forces.
0:14:13 > 0:14:18But in June 2011, the Police National Database was launched,
0:14:18 > 0:14:23allowing the sharing of information between all forces automatically.
0:14:23 > 0:14:28In the history of policing, significant change has often happened following crises.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31And that's what happened with the Soham investigation.
0:14:31 > 0:14:32Things went wrong.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35They went badly wrong and they went publicly wrong.
0:14:35 > 0:14:41But as a result of that, it made the police change, adapt and improve.
0:14:41 > 0:14:48So whilst no-one wants these kind of circumstances to arise,
0:14:48 > 0:14:51in some ways there is some good that comes out of them
0:14:51 > 0:14:53because hopefully you can stop it happening again.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03Ten years on, police intelligence is much better co-ordinated
0:15:03 > 0:15:05as we've seen from Kay Wallace and her team
0:15:05 > 0:15:07in the West Midlands Child Protection Squad.
0:15:07 > 0:15:12Their first raid failed to catch the suspect but the hunt goes on.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17Detective Inspector Kay Wallace and her team are following up
0:15:17 > 0:15:22intelligence in the hunt for internet evidence of child sexual abuse.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25They're on their way to a second address
0:15:25 > 0:15:27for the man they were looking for earlier.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30It's slightly later in the morning now
0:15:30 > 0:15:33so it's possible he may not be at the address
0:15:33 > 0:15:36but we've got a warrant so we can still conduct a thorough search
0:15:36 > 0:15:38of the premises and get the evidence we need.
0:15:41 > 0:15:45The time of day dictates the way this raid is handled.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48First, two plain clothes officers knock on the door...
0:15:48 > 0:15:50KNOCK ON DOOR
0:15:50 > 0:15:53When there's no reply, they force an entry.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56OK.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58Police!
0:15:58 > 0:16:00POLICE SHOUT
0:16:00 > 0:16:03The forensics officers are searching for anything
0:16:03 > 0:16:06that could give them evidence of online child abuse.
0:16:06 > 0:16:11A laptop that they already believe contains indecent images of children
0:16:11 > 0:16:14is taken away for further investigation.
0:16:14 > 0:16:1820 years ago, evidence gathering of this sort didn't exist.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23Soon into the search, the man they're looking for arrives home.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27We've executed a search warrant at the address.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30We're investigating an offence that's taken place on the internet.
0:16:30 > 0:16:35As a result, we'll arrest you on suspicion of possessing indecent images of children.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence
0:16:38 > 0:16:43if you do not mention, when questioned, something which you later rely on in court.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46Anything you do say may be given in evidence, all right?
0:16:46 > 0:16:48Grab a seat for a second.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51If he does have indecent images, he won't have a chance
0:16:51 > 0:16:54to destroy any evidence or to warn anyone else
0:16:54 > 0:16:57that he may have been swapping them with.
0:16:57 > 0:16:58That's a good result so far.
0:16:58 > 0:17:03This man is in his early 20s, one of the internet generation.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07Social networking, using sites to communicate
0:17:07 > 0:17:10with your best friends, your friends across the world,
0:17:10 > 0:17:12is now second-nature to most people,
0:17:12 > 0:17:15whereas certainly five years ago, I would say it wasn't.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24The internet has allowed now, a community to develop
0:17:24 > 0:17:28whereas many years ago, it would be people who live locally,
0:17:28 > 0:17:31people who are able to meet, people who are able to share -
0:17:31 > 0:17:33I hand you something, you hand me something.
0:17:33 > 0:17:38Now, we can share across the world and paedophiles do.
0:17:38 > 0:17:45Our experience has shown individuals who distribute and possess images,
0:17:45 > 0:17:51it's a currency. It's really important that I can have that image
0:17:51 > 0:17:54that's out there and therefore I'll do anything to get it,
0:17:54 > 0:17:57which, if it means taking indecent images of my own child
0:17:57 > 0:18:01or of my neighbour's child or a child I've groomed, then I will do that,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04in order to get that golden nugget.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10It could take months to get to the bottom of the case they're working on today,
0:18:10 > 0:18:14sifting through every piece of evidence they've uncovered.
0:18:14 > 0:18:18The difficult job of keeping children safe goes on.
0:18:18 > 0:18:22If everybody who was a paedophile had it stamped across their head,
0:18:22 > 0:18:24that would make my job so much easier. I guarantee you,
0:18:24 > 0:18:29there'll be people in your life, in my life, who are paedophiles,
0:18:29 > 0:18:31who we have no knowledge of, we don't know.
0:18:31 > 0:18:36That's why I do the job I do, because I'm very passionate about the fact
0:18:36 > 0:18:40people who possess images, distribute images,
0:18:40 > 0:18:43actually are fuelling the abuse of children
0:18:43 > 0:18:46which is totally, totally abhorrent.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05Now, if a man can't read or write,
0:19:05 > 0:19:07what chance has he got of holding down a job
0:19:07 > 0:19:09or even applying for one in the first place?
0:19:09 > 0:19:12In Bristol, teaching literacy is a big thing
0:19:12 > 0:19:16and there's special help for inmates with dyslexia -
0:19:16 > 0:19:20what would have been called "word blindness" 60 years ago.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25- Michala.- Hello.- How are you doing? I'm Gethin.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27- Hi, pleased to meet you. - Nice to meet you.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30- I hear you're in charge of this unit.- I am, yes.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34Maybe you can tell me what kind of things you do here, what goes on.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37Basically we take prisoners who've been identified
0:19:37 > 0:19:42at initial assessment as having dyslexia or a possibility
0:19:42 > 0:19:47of having dyslexia, and they come and join part of the dyslexia support project with us,
0:19:47 > 0:19:50where they work one-to-one with a volunteer
0:19:50 > 0:19:52on a development software programme we have.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55We see them each week and help them improve their literacy.
0:19:55 > 0:19:59And we help them work against the difficulties dyslexia causes them.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03Is it a common problem in prisoners,
0:20:03 > 0:20:07and indeed in the population of the UK, dyslexia?
0:20:07 > 0:20:11It is common. Statistically, in society it's supposed to be
0:20:11 > 0:20:13one in ten. In the prison population, that rises.
0:20:13 > 0:20:1880% of adult prisoners are said to have dyslexia
0:20:18 > 0:20:22- and 60% of young adult prisoners.- I can see two guys hard at work here.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25- Yes, they are.- Can I have a chat with them?- Please do.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29Move over here to...
0:20:29 > 0:20:32- How are you doing? - Pleased to meet you.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35- And you must be Graham?- Graham, pleased to meet you.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38Good stuff. Tell me, what kind of stuff do you do here?
0:20:38 > 0:20:43Basically, they help you to learn and read and write.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46As we've got problems with reading and writing,
0:20:46 > 0:20:48this is one of the best places to come to.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51Before I come here, I didn't know how to read or write properly.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53- At all?- At all.
0:20:53 > 0:20:57This is the first place I've ever read a book in my whole life.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01- Really?- Yeah.- When was that, when did you pick up your first book?
0:21:01 > 0:21:04It was in...er, December.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07And why, what made you?
0:21:07 > 0:21:09It's a funny story, my cellmate blew our telly
0:21:09 > 0:21:12and we had no telly for the night.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16And just to pass the boredom, he gave me a book to read.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19Once I started getting into it, I thought, "Yeah".
0:21:19 > 0:21:22He was beside me and he helped me get through it.
0:21:22 > 0:21:27Picked up the next book, then the next book and before I knew it, I'm just read...
0:21:27 > 0:21:29- I've read five books already.- Really?
0:21:29 > 0:21:33It passes the time, it exercises my brain as well.
0:21:33 > 0:21:37I find it really good just to read, to sit and read.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41And when the time does pass and you're back in the real world,
0:21:41 > 0:21:43what difference do you think it will make to your life?
0:21:43 > 0:21:46It will make a hell of a lot.
0:21:46 > 0:21:51Now, I can sit down with my children, sit them on my lap and read to them,
0:21:51 > 0:21:53where before, I couldn't even do that.
0:21:53 > 0:21:57That's one of the achievements I want to get out of here,
0:21:57 > 0:22:01is to go...I can go and get a job, fill in the application form,
0:22:01 > 0:22:04without even panicking.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06You must have had trouble doing that...
0:22:06 > 0:22:09That was one of my things where I couldn't get a job
0:22:09 > 0:22:11because I was so nervous going in there,
0:22:11 > 0:22:16filling out an application form and getting it wrong, so to speak.
0:22:16 > 0:22:20Then handing it over and you've just filled in a load of things they don't understand.
0:22:20 > 0:22:25- Sure.- So coming to this place, it's really helped me a lot.
0:22:25 > 0:22:30I've jumped leaps and bounds, which I feel inside myself.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34Before, I don't think I'd ever done it.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37That's great news. I can see you're in the middle of things
0:22:37 > 0:22:42- so I'll let you get back to your work. Nice to meet you, the very best of luck with it.- Brilliant.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49Today we've been watching women in action in the prisons and police.
0:22:49 > 0:22:50In 2012, they compete
0:22:50 > 0:22:54on an equal basis with the men but it wasn't always so.
0:22:54 > 0:22:59Policewomen in the '50s and '60s had to fight to be taken seriously.
0:22:59 > 0:23:00In the 1950s,
0:23:00 > 0:23:05women joined the entirely separate Women's Police Service.
0:23:05 > 0:23:09They dealt with all cases involving women and children
0:23:09 > 0:23:12and were kept away from most of the duties carried out by the men.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15But despite being considered unsuitable
0:23:15 > 0:23:17for the rigours of the beat,
0:23:17 > 0:23:21they had to tackle sex offenders - sometimes quite literally!
0:23:21 > 0:23:22The sergeant told me
0:23:22 > 0:23:25that that night I was going to do observations for a flasher.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27I didn't know what a flasher was!
0:23:27 > 0:23:32If a sex crime came in, or a prisoner arrested for a sex crime,
0:23:32 > 0:23:34the cry would go up, "Send for a policewoman!"
0:23:34 > 0:23:36As I walked past, his mac flew open
0:23:36 > 0:23:39and there was this thing bathed in the light.
0:23:39 > 0:23:43And I was so incensed that he would have the gall
0:23:43 > 0:23:47to expose himself to me, I pulled out my whistle and instead of blowing it,
0:23:47 > 0:23:50I went to hit his willy with this thing and it missed!
0:23:50 > 0:23:53And the chain wrapped itself round his willy. I pulled,
0:23:53 > 0:23:55thinking, "Argh, my whistle!"
0:23:55 > 0:23:59All I could think about was getting my whistle back - it was my first day on duty
0:23:59 > 0:24:02and if I lost my whistle, I would lose my job!
0:24:02 > 0:24:05So why would they want to take on such a challenging career?
0:24:05 > 0:24:08Once you get into the police force, it's like a large family.
0:24:08 > 0:24:13I just got, you know, hooked up in it
0:24:13 > 0:24:15and stayed on and on and on.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17My husband was a student, we had no money.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19We had our jeans stolen from the washing line.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22A very nice sergeant came round to see me
0:24:22 > 0:24:25and he said, "Why don't you join the police?"
0:24:25 > 0:24:29So I say, I joined to catch the so-and-sos that stole my jeans.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33My grandfather was a police officer from 1930,
0:24:33 > 0:24:39in Oxford City. My father also joined the police after the Second World War.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42I didn't really consider anything other than the police.
0:24:42 > 0:24:46I actually believed the blurb that came from the Met Police
0:24:46 > 0:24:49about it was an equal opportunities employer.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52It sounded like a good career.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55But the reality wasn't always what they expected.
0:24:55 > 0:25:00In 1963, there was still an awful lot of prejudice really.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03We were tea-makers, we were just women.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05Some officers would creep up behind you
0:25:05 > 0:25:09and try and undo your bra strap.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12You've not been initiated until you've been turned upside down
0:25:12 > 0:25:15and had the station stamp on your bottom.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17I walked into the front office at Notting Hill.
0:25:17 > 0:25:21I was pounced upon, grabbed, taken into what was called the reserve room
0:25:21 > 0:25:23and they actually pulled down my waistband
0:25:23 > 0:25:27and stamped the top of my bum with the station stamp.
0:25:27 > 0:25:28I was furious.
0:25:28 > 0:25:33Women police officers were issued with very different uniform and equipment from the men.
0:25:33 > 0:25:37Collars and ties, all starched, uniforms pressed.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41We used to wear nylons with seams up the back, seams straight.
0:25:41 > 0:25:45When I joined the traffic department, I think we caused more accidents
0:25:45 > 0:25:49than we actually stopped because the drivers would be going along
0:25:49 > 0:25:55and seeing a pair of nylon-clad legs... They'd be all over the road.
0:25:55 > 0:25:57I couldn't get over a wall
0:25:57 > 0:26:00so I just hoicked my pencil skirt above my waist.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03I think the PC's eyes were popping out
0:26:03 > 0:26:05but I didn't have stockings and suspenders on.
0:26:05 > 0:26:07I was a modern woman with tights.
0:26:07 > 0:26:12We were issued with a cape and it was just so comfortable.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15If there's any senior officers watching,
0:26:15 > 0:26:20they'll probably be cross but my friend and I used to hide our shopping under it!
0:26:20 > 0:26:23The men had truncheons that were about that long
0:26:23 > 0:26:27and the women were...I don't know whether we were issued
0:26:27 > 0:26:30or we all managed to get hold of a truncheon that was that big
0:26:30 > 0:26:32and would fit into a handbag.
0:26:32 > 0:26:36By the time you'd fished everything out of your bag, that was no use whatsoever.
0:26:36 > 0:26:39I didn't have a radio, we used to have to go to a police box
0:26:39 > 0:26:41if we'd arrested anybody,
0:26:41 > 0:26:45and telephone to ask for some transport.
0:26:45 > 0:26:49Or we had to walk them into the police station.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52So we had no protection whatsoever really.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56You just had to use your wits and your charm.
0:26:56 > 0:27:01And sometimes that wit and charm was more effective than brute force.
0:27:01 > 0:27:05There was a load of rockers, in the days of mods and rockers,
0:27:05 > 0:27:08on their motorbikes, making a tremendous noise
0:27:08 > 0:27:11outside a pub at the bottom of the town.
0:27:11 > 0:27:14Being a female and not wanting to get into a fight,
0:27:14 > 0:27:17I just stood and said in a really loud voice,
0:27:17 > 0:27:21"Just what...do you think...you are doing?"
0:27:21 > 0:27:25I spoke to these boys, I said, "We've had a complaint about you,
0:27:25 > 0:27:28"I wonder if you'd mind moving off and doing it one by one
0:27:28 > 0:27:30"so as not to cause a lot of noise?"
0:27:30 > 0:27:33And they were as good as gold!
0:27:33 > 0:27:36So they got up sheepishly and said, "Sorry, Miss."
0:27:36 > 0:27:40I said, "How dare you fight in the streets of Wakefield!"
0:27:40 > 0:27:43Ten minutes later, the big blue personnel van,
0:27:43 > 0:27:46with half a dozen policemen, came down, "Where are they?"
0:27:46 > 0:27:49I said, "They've gone."
0:27:49 > 0:27:53Not only were female officers assigned to different areas of policing,
0:27:53 > 0:27:57they didn't have the same pay or opportunities for promotion.
0:27:57 > 0:28:01As women officers, we only got 95% of the pay.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04As I said, when I joined, I was married.
0:28:04 > 0:28:08I expected to get rent allowance as the married male officers got,
0:28:08 > 0:28:11but I was told, "Oh no, you're a woman, you don't get that."
0:28:11 > 0:28:15When I took my inspector's examination,
0:28:15 > 0:28:17I came top in the force.
0:28:17 > 0:28:21When the chief constable got the report from the police college,
0:28:21 > 0:28:25he said to me, "Have you written this yourself?"
0:28:25 > 0:28:29I asked the chief constable if there was any chance of getting back as a sergeant into CID.
0:28:29 > 0:28:33And he said, "Not in the foreseeable future, Miss Normington."
0:28:33 > 0:28:37So I saw an advert for people for the Hong Kong police
0:28:37 > 0:28:41which was offering equal opportunities for women,
0:28:41 > 0:28:43and decided to apply.
0:28:43 > 0:28:48I definitely hit the glass ceiling. Women of my generation
0:28:48 > 0:28:52cracked the glass ceiling so that women later could go through it.
0:28:52 > 0:28:57In 1974, the Equal Opportunities Act meant women were integrated
0:28:57 > 0:29:00into the main police force, getting equal pay
0:29:00 > 0:29:02and taking on the same duties as men.
0:29:02 > 0:29:06But that meant potentially more dangerous operations.
0:29:07 > 0:29:11- I could see his shadow move back and say,- "BLEEP,- is this a woman?"
0:29:11 > 0:29:16At that point, I'd got the gun in my back and then I felt...
0:29:16 > 0:29:22Saw the shadow go, and I can remember thinking, "He's hesitated."
0:29:22 > 0:29:25I uncurled myself and ran up the road in a pair of heels.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28He must have lifted up the gun and fired it at me
0:29:28 > 0:29:32cos I felt this thing go through my head. I can remember at the time,
0:29:32 > 0:29:37it was like slow motion. I can remember running and thinking,
0:29:37 > 0:29:40"If I'd been taking off on that run instead of landing,
0:29:40 > 0:29:43"that would have got me in the back of my head."
0:29:43 > 0:29:45All these miners came out with big batons.
0:29:45 > 0:29:49And they'd got these steel toecaps on and they were angry,
0:29:49 > 0:29:50boy, were they angry!
0:29:50 > 0:29:52They were slapping these batons on...
0:29:52 > 0:29:54I said to Pam, "We've had it."
0:29:54 > 0:29:58They took one look at us and all they saw was a uniform,
0:29:58 > 0:30:00they didn't see a woman, they saw a uniform.
0:30:00 > 0:30:04We used to work on roughly the top 2% of criminals in the UK.
0:30:04 > 0:30:08That could be anything from IRA terrorists
0:30:08 > 0:30:12to international drug dealers, to armed bank robbers.
0:30:12 > 0:30:17In the early days, there was little support following traumatic incidents.
0:30:18 > 0:30:22There were times when I would like to have had
0:30:22 > 0:30:25somebody's arms around me to just say, "There, there."
0:30:25 > 0:30:28But there wasn't anybody, so you got on with it.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32If you went to a fatal accident, you'd all get back to the station,
0:30:32 > 0:30:35and all the policemen would be laughing and joking.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38Not because they didn't feel anything,
0:30:38 > 0:30:40they had to do something to relieve the stress.
0:30:40 > 0:30:45If they took the things they'd seen to heart, it would drive them mad.
0:30:45 > 0:30:52Policemen are not hard, they're just experts in covering their feelings up, as are policewomen.
0:30:52 > 0:30:56Women joining the police force in the last 50 years
0:30:56 > 0:30:58have had to be pioneers, fighting for equality,
0:30:58 > 0:31:01for opportunity and change.
0:31:01 > 0:31:03So, has it been worth it?
0:31:03 > 0:31:06I've no regrets, no regrets at all.
0:31:06 > 0:31:11It's a very rewarding and satisfying job, and I'm proud of it.
0:31:11 > 0:31:16It was the best day's job I did, on the 5th April 1955,
0:31:16 > 0:31:19when I signed up to join the police force.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22They said, "You'll change." I said, "No, I shan't change,
0:31:22 > 0:31:25"I'll change the police force."
0:31:29 > 0:31:33I'm here in the custody suite at Birmingham Central Police Station.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36It is a working custody suite so it can be noisy. Brian, you're in charge.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39I wanted to talk to you about being a black police officer.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42- You've been working for 24 years, haven't you?- Yes.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44How were things back then?
0:31:44 > 0:31:46Well...
0:31:46 > 0:31:51As I say, I joined at a time when there was approximately
0:31:51 > 0:31:54250 non-white police officers in the West Midlands police force.
0:31:54 > 0:31:58Er...if you fast-forward to today,
0:31:58 > 0:32:01there's now 660 police officers.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04- What sort of percentage is that now of police officers?- 8%, roughly.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07- So still not an enormous amount, is it?- No, no.
0:32:07 > 0:32:11There's about 7,800 police officers.
0:32:11 > 0:32:13And of those, 660 are non-white.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16I wanted to talk to you about attitude as well.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19When you joined, what was the reaction you got from people?
0:32:19 > 0:32:24I was a novelty. You didn't see many non-white police officers.
0:32:24 > 0:32:28Both from police officers and members of the public.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31When I was out on patrol, you'd get a lot of people rubbernecking.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34Didn't cause any accidents or anything like that!
0:32:34 > 0:32:38But people would stand and stare and think, "How odd's that?"
0:32:38 > 0:32:41That was from the non-white community as well.
0:32:41 > 0:32:47Some people would call you "Bounty" - coconut, white on the inside, black on the outside.
0:32:47 > 0:32:52- That's how they would see it. - That's from your own community. - Yes, your own community.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55What about police officers? On your first day, what was it like?
0:32:55 > 0:32:57The first day was quite eventful.
0:32:57 > 0:33:02We got turned out to a car chase, drove round a corner,
0:33:02 > 0:33:06there was the bandit vehicle, the stolen...
0:33:06 > 0:33:09The offenders jumped out of the car and ran off.
0:33:09 > 0:33:14- And you being...- Me being 11 stone, fit, straight out of training school,
0:33:14 > 0:33:16left all the old guys behind.
0:33:16 > 0:33:20Several garden fences later, apprehended the chap,
0:33:20 > 0:33:22didn't know what I was doing, my first arrest,
0:33:22 > 0:33:26my first day, screaming for Derek, my tutor constable.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29He eventually comes over the fences, huffing and puffing.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32And so I was accepted straight away.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35You ended up in somebody's garden. How did the house owner react?
0:33:35 > 0:33:38She started screaming, she opened the window,
0:33:38 > 0:33:42- only to be confronted by me... - A police officer.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45A police officer, my big face at the window shouting, "Open the door!"
0:33:45 > 0:33:48cos I wanted to take this prisoner through her house.
0:33:48 > 0:33:50She closed the curtains, screaming.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52I'm shouting, screaming for Derek.
0:33:52 > 0:33:56The prisoner's screaming. Derek's thinking I'm getting a kicking.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59He comes over the fence, I'm like, "I've got him, what do I do now?"
0:33:59 > 0:34:02She was scared because of the way you looked?
0:34:02 > 0:34:06Six foot two, black guy, I don't think she saw the uniform at all.
0:34:06 > 0:34:09And she, you know, scary...
0:34:09 > 0:34:12So that's the attitude back then. Are things better now?
0:34:12 > 0:34:16Things are a hell of a lot better. We have a lot of diversity training,
0:34:16 > 0:34:20so people know what's acceptable and what's not acceptable.
0:34:20 > 0:34:25But it's obvious that you deal with a lot of that, or probably have done over the years, with humour.
0:34:25 > 0:34:29That's it. Some of it I laugh off because it is funny.
0:34:29 > 0:34:32Others, I say, "No, that's not acceptable."
0:34:32 > 0:34:35- I put a stop to it straight away. - It's been a pleasure to meet you.
0:34:35 > 0:34:39- Thank you.- I know you're busy, somebody needs your assistance. See you later.- Bye bye.
0:34:47 > 0:34:52There are almost 2,500 women officers in West Midlands Police,
0:34:52 > 0:34:54just under a third of the workforce.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57They work alongside the men in every role.
0:34:59 > 0:35:03Armed police! Drop the weapon!
0:35:03 > 0:35:08When you grow up, you see roles that are for females and roles that are for males.
0:35:08 > 0:35:11And having a gun, a weapon, you might think that's a man's job.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13That's where I saw it,
0:35:13 > 0:35:16until I came down here and had a look and had a go,
0:35:16 > 0:35:20and actually thought, "You know, I'm quite excited about this.
0:35:20 > 0:35:21"I'm going to give this a go."
0:35:24 > 0:35:27Yes, I'm a woman. Yes, I might be quite small.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31but my communication skills and the way I put myself and express myself,
0:35:31 > 0:35:35makes them understand that I won't take any messing about.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37But it wasn't always so.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42There weren't any female police officers
0:35:42 > 0:35:46until the Women's Police Force was founded in 1914.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49And they were only volunteers.
0:35:49 > 0:35:53However, it was a long journey. Only in 1995
0:35:53 > 0:35:58did Britain get its first woman Chief Constable, Pauline Clare.
0:35:59 > 0:36:03But today, there's no reason why any woman police officer
0:36:03 > 0:36:05shouldn't aim high.
0:36:05 > 0:36:08Sergeant Helen Carver joined the force at 23.
0:36:10 > 0:36:13I was nine years old when I first wanted to be a police officer.
0:36:13 > 0:36:15School fete, there was a police officer.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17That's all I've wanted to do since.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19Everything from then has been geared toward
0:36:19 > 0:36:22I could gain skills to be a really good police officer.
0:36:22 > 0:36:25She specialised in working with persistent offenders.
0:36:25 > 0:36:28Today, she's leading a team of court warrant officers,
0:36:28 > 0:36:32rounding up those who've breached their court orders
0:36:32 > 0:36:34to get them back in the dock.
0:36:34 > 0:36:37The young lady we're hoping to speak to today
0:36:37 > 0:36:39has never attended the attendance centre.
0:36:39 > 0:36:43She's not even made an effort to contact them to explain why she's never attended.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46Therefore, it's important for us all to work together
0:36:46 > 0:36:49and ensure we bring this lady before the courts
0:36:49 > 0:36:54to explain exactly why she has chosen to ignore her court order.
0:36:56 > 0:37:00The father of the 19-year-old woman they're after answers the door.
0:37:00 > 0:37:04Hello, sorry to trouble you, can we come in for a moment? We need to have a quick chat...
0:37:04 > 0:37:07- BLEEP BLEEP.- What about her? She's pregnant.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10- There's nothing wrong with her. - We need a chat with her.
0:37:10 > 0:37:15- She's wanted on a warrant for breaching a community order. - You're joking! She's pregnant!
0:37:15 > 0:37:17Can we come in, just have a chat with her?
0:37:17 > 0:37:20The woman claims because she's pregnant,
0:37:20 > 0:37:23she was too ill to attend probation on the allotted date.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26But that doesn't stop them taking her in now.
0:37:26 > 0:37:28Put some clothes on, we'll take you to court.
0:37:28 > 0:37:30And we'll get you sorted out.
0:37:30 > 0:37:34Other than it being outstanding, you'll have the worry of it.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37- How long am I going to be? - How long's a piece of string?
0:37:37 > 0:37:38I don't know, mate.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41It doesn't matter how much she complains,
0:37:41 > 0:37:43there's no way out.
0:37:46 > 0:37:50Have you got any drugs or alcohol issues we need to know about?
0:37:50 > 0:37:52- No, no, no.- OK then, in you get.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54It's going to be 15 minutes into town
0:37:54 > 0:37:56and we'll get you into the cells there.
0:38:02 > 0:38:07She was a bit angry that it was early in the morning we'd come
0:38:07 > 0:38:10but she was fully aware of why we'd come to get her, of the community order,
0:38:10 > 0:38:14aware that she had breached it and then she'll be placed in the cells
0:38:14 > 0:38:17and she'll go before a magistrate at some point this morning.
0:38:17 > 0:38:19- Good morning.- Morning.
0:38:19 > 0:38:23A successful day for Sergeant Carver and her team.
0:38:23 > 0:38:25My role's always been front line,
0:38:25 > 0:38:28I've never felt it be any different.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31I'm sure 30 years ago, that would be very different
0:38:31 > 0:38:34and women in policing wouldn't be on the front line,
0:38:34 > 0:38:38they'd be very much in a male-dominated workforce.
0:38:38 > 0:38:42However, now we're on the front line, we do exactly the same role,
0:38:42 > 0:38:44same job as our male colleagues
0:38:44 > 0:38:48and there's no difference at all. Male or female, we do the same role.
0:38:49 > 0:38:52Louise Proffitt's role is very much front line.
0:38:52 > 0:38:57Even in the army, armed women still don't go into active combat duty.
0:38:57 > 0:39:01Louise is one of only five women in West Mids Police Firearms Unit.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04I don't understand why there aren't the females on this department.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07There's currently six females
0:39:07 > 0:39:11out of 130-plus officers.
0:39:12 > 0:39:16I've not come across anything yet I can't do that I've been asked to do.
0:39:16 > 0:39:19There's only your own personal bridges that you have to cross.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23I started my courses on the Firearms Department with a number of males.
0:39:23 > 0:39:27And they're not here today because they haven't passed the courses,
0:39:27 > 0:39:30met the marks that are required of them.
0:39:30 > 0:39:31So it's not a job that females can't do.
0:39:33 > 0:39:37And year by year, the percentage of women joining West Mids Police
0:39:37 > 0:39:39continues to increase.
0:39:43 > 0:39:4560 years ago, the best a victim could hope for
0:39:45 > 0:39:48was a nice cup of tea and maybe the neighbours rallying around.
0:39:48 > 0:39:53Now, prisons try very hard to make the inmates aware
0:39:53 > 0:39:56of the victim's point of view, as Louise discovered.
0:39:58 > 0:39:59Hi, sorry to interrupt.
0:39:59 > 0:40:02- Hello there, I'm Louise. - Hello, I'm Vince.
0:40:02 > 0:40:03Thanks for seeing us.
0:40:03 > 0:40:06Tell us what you've been talking about here today.
0:40:06 > 0:40:11Today, with Ashton and Mark, we're talking about the ripple effect
0:40:11 > 0:40:17which is the continuing consequences of an offence
0:40:17 > 0:40:21on other people - families, friends
0:40:21 > 0:40:22and society in general.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25- Can I talk to them, is that OK to interrupt you?- Yes, please do.
0:40:25 > 0:40:29Hi, thanks for talking to me. The ripple effect, what does it mean for you?
0:40:29 > 0:40:32What have you been thinking about?
0:40:32 > 0:40:35In terms of myself, it's my actual crime.
0:40:35 > 0:40:39And then the impact it's had on my family, victims,
0:40:39 > 0:40:41the wider community.
0:40:41 > 0:40:42And what kind of impact has it had?
0:40:42 > 0:40:44Er...
0:40:44 > 0:40:47It's a little bit different for me. I'm in the classroom
0:40:47 > 0:40:49because I'm here for supplying cannabis.
0:40:49 > 0:40:53I've had to...I've struggled slightly in finding a victim...
0:40:53 > 0:40:57But you mention your family, you've got lots of children, haven't you, so...
0:40:57 > 0:41:00I've got quite a large family and they're affected in a big way.
0:41:00 > 0:41:04And there are issues that we're working through now
0:41:04 > 0:41:07with the wider community, with regards to that.
0:41:07 > 0:41:10What about the impact on your children? How does it affect them?
0:41:11 > 0:41:14They're lonely, they're missing their dad,
0:41:14 > 0:41:18there's been some shame with regards to my partner at the school,
0:41:18 > 0:41:20and they've had issues in school as well
0:41:20 > 0:41:24so that's obviously something I feel bad about.
0:41:24 > 0:41:27So it's really obvious this course is making you both think
0:41:27 > 0:41:29but Ashton, will it stop you,
0:41:29 > 0:41:32will it stop the way of life you had before you came in here?
0:41:32 > 0:41:35Well, I would say, the course...
0:41:36 > 0:41:39Stopping you committing crime is within yourself.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42These courses enlighten you to what you are doing wrong.
0:41:43 > 0:41:47But me personally, I've stopped doing crime.
0:41:47 > 0:41:50I want more out of my life than this.
0:41:50 > 0:41:52This, there's only so much it can offer you
0:41:52 > 0:41:56and I want to proceed in my life. I'm only young, I'm 23.
0:41:56 > 0:41:59I don't want to be doing this for the rest of my life.
0:41:59 > 0:42:01I've seen older people in the system,
0:42:01 > 0:42:03doing it for years and years and years.
0:42:03 > 0:42:06So I'm trying to take the most I can from this
0:42:06 > 0:42:10- and use it in a good way.- OK, and what about you, Mark?
0:42:10 > 0:42:12Yeah, basically the same thing.
0:42:12 > 0:42:14I'm missing my family, I've got young children.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17I don't want to be coming to prison again.
0:42:17 > 0:42:19I'm hoping I can take something from this course myself
0:42:19 > 0:42:21that's going to make sure I don't.
0:42:21 > 0:42:25Thanks for talking to us and being honest as well
0:42:25 > 0:42:28- about what you feel. Thank you. - Thank you.
0:42:31 > 0:42:33And that's it for Crime And Punishment.
0:42:33 > 0:42:35There's only one thing left to say.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38In the immortal words of George Dixon, Dixon Of Dock Green,
0:42:38 > 0:42:40mind how you go.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd