:00:05. > :00:15.streets are policed? Nicky Campbell discusses that with experts and
:00:15. > :00:16.
:00:16. > :00:20.victims of crime in Police Everybody has a view on how the
:00:20. > :00:25.streets should be policed. Crackdown on anti-social behaviour,
:00:25. > :00:34.more bobbies on the beat. In just over one week, the way the police
:00:34. > :00:37.operate will change forever. That is when we elect brand new Police
:00:37. > :00:42.and Crime Commissioner us. Through them, we get the chance to decide
:00:42. > :00:47.how the police deal with everything from underage drinking, graffiti,
:00:47. > :00:52.right through to gun crime. Tonight, we will explain the idea, look at
:00:52. > :01:02.how it might work and discuss the issues that affect you. This is
:01:02. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:18.Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice. Who
:01:18. > :01:24.do we want to be a police and Crime Commission? Who should decide the
:01:24. > :01:31.strategy for house St -- safe house St there. Why should we go to the
:01:31. > :01:37.polls next week on a cold November night? The new police and crime
:01:37. > :01:41.commissioners, will they make a difference? And what effect will it
:01:41. > :01:48.have on where you live? Tonight, we will look at what these elections
:01:48. > :01:53.mean for all of us. In the next half hour, we will be looking at
:01:53. > :01:58.what difference these new police commissioners are going to make.
:01:58. > :02:04.Later, we will ask, are the crop of candidates out there going in the
:02:04. > :02:07.right direction? Guests include a spokesman from the human rights
:02:07. > :02:12.group Liberty, who thinks it is disastrous out there. And the
:02:12. > :02:17.person who helped designed -- the Sunday plan. But who will these
:02:17. > :02:21.police commissioners be responsible for? -- what. They will hire a
:02:21. > :02:25.chief constable, deliver a five- year crime clan and come up with
:02:25. > :02:30.the Budget. And they will have to regularly consult us on the way the
:02:30. > :02:36.police the streets. They might also be able to extend their influence
:02:36. > :02:39.into how justice is administered through the courts as well. These
:02:39. > :02:48.characters will be managing multi- million-pound organisations. They
:02:48. > :02:53.will develop a plan that puts populations of millions into one
:02:53. > :02:58.area. We have been trying to find out what the dog is all about.
:02:58. > :03:03.The police have to manage all types of crime. Whether that is violent
:03:03. > :03:07.crime in the city or anti-social behaviour in the countryside. The
:03:07. > :03:10.government's advertising campaign is hard-hitting but the new Police
:03:10. > :03:16.and Crime Commissioner for her to tap into people's everyday concerns.
:03:16. > :03:23.The gangs that hang around, especially in the park. Where I
:03:24. > :03:28.live, it's a motorway. More police. The commissioner's job is to listen
:03:28. > :03:32.to the public. In the run-up to the elections, the candidates are about
:03:32. > :03:38.making their promises to win votes. But once in office, they may
:03:38. > :03:42.discover just how complex policing ease with conflicting demands. In
:03:42. > :03:48.Middlesbrough, anti-social behaviour takes up most police time.
:03:48. > :03:53.Hello! This man has suffered ten years of abuse, including two
:03:53. > :03:59.petrol-bomb attacks, on his home. He knows exactly what he wants from
:03:59. > :04:04.the new commissioner. They need to have more police on the beat.
:04:04. > :04:09.Without that, people will just to suffer more. We need to target the
:04:09. > :04:14.people who are causing trouble within the communities. Police on
:04:14. > :04:17.the beat may reassure people their communities are safe. But deploying
:04:17. > :04:24.them everywhere, all the time, is impossible. Different crimes need
:04:24. > :04:27.different policing. In North Yorkshire, crime is relatively low.
:04:27. > :04:31.Bobbies on the beat are not exactly a priority. But recently, the
:04:32. > :04:36.village post office had its cash machine stolen. People still want
:04:36. > :04:41.their fair share of policing. Two doors down from the Post Office,
:04:41. > :04:49.this property has been broken into twice. She is concerned the rural
:04:49. > :04:52.areas will be overlooked by the new police and Crime Commissioner.
:04:52. > :04:57.concern is that such as the police commissioner might think petty
:04:57. > :05:01.crimes, as it is labelled, doesn't matter but it does matter to people,
:05:01. > :05:06.especially in rural areas. If somebody takes your trailer or your
:05:06. > :05:13.bike or they break into your sheds, then it does affect those people.
:05:13. > :05:16.We pay our taxes to and the matter. So, it is up to the Crime
:05:16. > :05:20.Commission are to listen and deliver policing relevant to you.
:05:20. > :05:25.And do it with limited resources. But that is not the only challenge.
:05:25. > :05:28.There is the tricky issue of personalities. The new Crime
:05:28. > :05:32.Commissioner will set the priorities for the chief constable.
:05:32. > :05:38.How will they get on and can they agree on how to achieve what the
:05:38. > :05:43.public wants to see? A reduction in crime. Keith Halliwell is a former
:05:43. > :05:46.chief constable and knows how tough that job is. But he thinks the job
:05:46. > :05:50.of a new Police and Crime Commissioner will be even harder.
:05:50. > :05:55.It is enormously challenging because the individual will lead to
:05:55. > :05:59.understand the so -- police service. The blue we do have a lot of
:05:59. > :06:02.political though house and they will know her -- need to know how
:06:02. > :06:08.to run an enormous organisation. It's a virtually impossible task
:06:08. > :06:15.for any individual to do that. Strong words from Keith Tao Li will.
:06:15. > :06:19.Virtually impossible for any one individual! -- Keith Halliwell.
:06:19. > :06:23.That is not white. He is talking about managing the police force.
:06:23. > :06:28.The chief constable is managing the police. He is a political leader
:06:28. > :06:33.and will look at decisions and priorities. He will try to identify
:06:33. > :06:36.policing needs but will not manage the force on a day-to-day basis.
:06:36. > :06:44.There is a management team, a chief constable. They have been trained
:06:44. > :06:49.and paid for that. That is their job! There was a lot about changing
:06:50. > :06:54.police operations but this will not affect police operations, except if
:06:54. > :06:58.the Chief Constable wants them to change. It is about priorities and
:06:58. > :07:04.focusing on people's needs, I didn't find them, and making sure
:07:04. > :07:07.the Chief Constable meets them. Power to the people? Have it is not.
:07:07. > :07:12.It is power to any other elected politicians and we have seen too
:07:12. > :07:17.much political interference in policing and law in order. How can
:07:17. > :07:21.you argue against that? Democracy is not just about having elections.
:07:21. > :07:25.Elected politicians are not the only people with authority in a
:07:25. > :07:28.democracy. You also have to have the rule of law. Of course
:07:28. > :07:32.politicians said the laws and decide what the police powers are.
:07:32. > :07:38.But then you need independent professionals, who serve the whole
:07:38. > :07:42.community. Whether they vote or not. Young, old, minorities and popular
:07:42. > :07:51.majorities. I am worried this charismatic local politicians, if
:07:51. > :07:55.that is who he is, rather than a police authority, I am worried that
:07:55. > :07:59.this politician is going to be looking for the headlines and the
:07:59. > :08:06.popular courses and not serving the tough needs of the entire community,
:08:06. > :08:09.no matter how vulnerable they are. I just don't agree. I think Members
:08:09. > :08:14.of Parliament serve the whole of their communities when they are
:08:14. > :08:18.elected. I feel the Nadia mac serves the whole community of
:08:18. > :08:23.London and I don't think we need to worry about their and the click
:08:23. > :08:30.team v Colin into. But the public wants the law to be administered
:08:30. > :08:34.with an even hand. They don't want the police chiefs to be elected. We
:08:34. > :08:44.told whether they wanted the new system or whether they preferred
:08:44. > :08:49.
:08:49. > :08:55.the existing system and a broader police authority. -- we polled. 65%
:08:55. > :09:02.wanted to stay with the status quo. But you are still on the record as
:09:02. > :09:07.saying that you accept people do not yet understand the concept of
:09:07. > :09:11.this role in one individual's cans. You say it is the elections after
:09:11. > :09:17.this one that will be really significant. What are the next four
:09:17. > :09:22.Mackie is going to be? A pilot? next four years are a period when
:09:22. > :09:26.the PCC's make a difference in their communities. And members of
:09:26. > :09:31.those communities begin to realise that the PCC is someone who can
:09:31. > :09:36.make a difference to their lives. Sadly, whereas now people have
:09:36. > :09:41.never heard of them, they regard crime as something that is done to
:09:41. > :09:44.them, not something they can control. But if you will not
:09:44. > :09:49.interfere in operational policing, what is the great transformation he
:09:49. > :09:55.will making people's lives? believe integration will leadership.
:09:55. > :10:00.I believe the PCC can get a more effective police force by inspiring
:10:00. > :10:03.and leading and supporting the chief constable. I don't see this
:10:03. > :10:08.as a conflict... Let's talk about the practical and one of the
:10:08. > :10:16.biggest police cover-ups in criminal history, Hillsborough. You
:10:16. > :10:19.lost two a lovely girls there. did. Have you had a policing Crime
:10:19. > :10:25.Commissioner there he was answerable to folks like yourself?
:10:25. > :10:29.Would you have felt for is this for quite so long? The current system
:10:29. > :10:34.does not seem to have worked for us. Some of the decisions the local
:10:35. > :10:37.police authorities are not making have not worked for us. Like
:10:38. > :10:46.certain people should have been suspended because of allegations
:10:46. > :10:50.about them. It just did not happen. Because he is answerable to people
:10:50. > :10:55.and take -- can get kicked out, that would have been better for
:10:55. > :11:02.you? I would hope so. I would have hoped there would be more
:11:02. > :11:05.transparency. More accountability because they were elected. As a
:11:05. > :11:11.former top of yourself, more transparency? It's a real
:11:11. > :11:15.possibility? I think it depends. Politicians are not unknown for
:11:15. > :11:19.deciding to open up and the transparent just before an election
:11:19. > :11:23.so it is addictive and that will happen. There would have to the
:11:23. > :11:28.other leaders to resolve the type of situation that was also around -
:11:28. > :11:32.- revolves around Hillsborough. But there are one or two new facets.
:11:32. > :11:36.For all the floors, they do need in open and public meetings. Not with
:11:36. > :11:41.a huge audience, because they are not widely interesting for money,
:11:41. > :11:47.but they are public. Most of the decisions taken between the chief
:11:47. > :11:51.and Crime Commissioner will be taking in a room on their own. Some
:11:51. > :11:54.of that decision making in public might go. There is a big onus on
:11:55. > :11:58.the individuals that take on this role to make sure the public
:11:58. > :12:04.transparently CD decisions that are being taken and they are not done
:12:04. > :12:09.in just got used to be called smoke-filled room. -- see the
:12:09. > :12:18.decisions. Most chiefs will want to make that relationship work. That
:12:18. > :12:24.will be unlikely to happen. I can hear what you're saying. I did not
:12:24. > :12:30.realise that it would be an open forum where decisions would be made.
:12:30. > :12:35.That is worrying. -- it would not be. But I come back to the
:12:35. > :12:38.accountability of being elected. agree that there should be
:12:38. > :12:42.accountability and what happened with Hillsborough is one of the
:12:42. > :12:48.greatest policing standards of my lifetime. Police should have been
:12:49. > :12:55.accountable to the law. I am not sure... It was ultimately people
:12:55. > :12:59.power that forced change here. they were elected politicians.
:12:59. > :13:05.Generations of them. Home Secretaries and others who did not
:13:05. > :13:09.deal with this situation. Are you concerned that the police and Crime
:13:09. > :13:13.Commissioner may not share your view? This is a constitutional
:13:13. > :13:16.point. It is not about a liberal agenda or another agenda. It is
:13:16. > :13:20.about saying you need checks and balances in a democracy and
:13:20. > :13:26.independent people as well as political people. I would no more
:13:26. > :13:29.have elected -- an elected judge. If you have elected judges, if you
:13:29. > :13:33.put policing in the hands of elected politicians, they don't
:13:33. > :13:41.necessarily serve the whole community, just the most popular
:13:41. > :13:48.bit. A brief final comment. secretly. This is a job which
:13:48. > :13:51.relates to... Which concerns the allegations of scarce resources.
:13:51. > :13:58.Policing needs are infinite. Police resources are limited. Somebody
:13:58. > :14:03.needs to make a decision. Is it the chief constable for is it a freely
:14:03. > :14:08.elected PCC, who passed to defend his actions at the polls? And every
:14:08. > :14:12.day, the local media will ensure that this is transparent. Thank you
:14:13. > :14:18.to all of you. Later, we will look at what the candidates themselves
:14:18. > :14:21.say that they will do if they are elected. What their priorities are.
:14:21. > :14:31.These commissioners are going to have a huge effect on where you
:14:31. > :14:33.
:14:33. > :14:43.We are now joined by an ex- policeman. Broadly speakingFavour
:14:43. > :14:43.
:14:43. > :14:44.of this. But to have some questions to the route to wit. What would a
:14:44. > :14:54.good police commissioner or outstanding police commissioner
:14:54. > :14:55.
:14:55. > :14:59.look like? They will have moved beyond the police. They will be the
:14:59. > :15:03.person in their community who the public think of and one to think
:15:03. > :15:13.about who is responsible for solving crime problems in the area.
:15:13. > :15:17.So such as? Such as how the police are dealing with domestic abuse or
:15:17. > :15:22.how the courts are sentencing. You have got someone there who may be
:15:22. > :15:29.able to challenge and question and provide a budget to provide a
:15:30. > :15:35.solution. What is your nightmare scenario? Not very dissimilar. We
:15:35. > :15:39.have got the politician interfering with the quotes as well. This is
:15:39. > :15:42.why the distinction between the priorities and the operations does
:15:42. > :15:46.not seem to stick. If we are talking about an elected politician
:15:46. > :15:52.who will get mixed up not the police should do and what the
:15:52. > :15:56.courts should do, we have got someone booking for the popular
:15:56. > :16:02.choices, the easy choices, and not be difficult choices that need to
:16:02. > :16:11.be made to protect everybody. would you judge a successful Crown
:16:11. > :16:15.Commissioner? Is the community safer. Let us see whether the
:16:15. > :16:21.Community is safer. I have seen that working in Philadelphia. You
:16:21. > :16:26.have the police chief who does the policing but you have a
:16:26. > :16:31.commissioner who inspires and motivates. Someone who brings the
:16:31. > :16:39.community end. Who makes the community feel that this is a
:16:39. > :16:48.Community-wide effort. People talk about them resolving conflicts. In
:16:49. > :16:55.need to work with them. They provide the professional expertise.
:16:55. > :16:59.You inspire and lead them. You make sure where the resources are put is
:16:59. > :17:09.where the members of the community really want them. A few are trying
:17:09. > :17:11.
:17:11. > :17:19.to involve the community, why not one just have a board? We have
:17:19. > :17:23.looked at the candidates. Most of them are men. It is actually early
:17:23. > :17:27.days. People come to an understanding in years to come.
:17:27. > :17:34.That is a clever way of justifying that only 20% of the voters will
:17:34. > :17:44.turn out. What kind of legitimacy is that? We give them a vote. It is
:17:44. > :17:54.a free vote. And it looks like they're voting with their feet.
:17:54. > :17:54.
:17:54. > :18:04.They did not want it. What will be light ball moments beat? -- the
:18:04. > :18:07.white ball but moments beat? think people will see in their
:18:07. > :18:16.community they're getting the kind of policing and attention being
:18:16. > :18:26.paid to the things that bother them. They are going to get policing
:18:26. > :18:27.
:18:27. > :18:31.services that they need. We just need to get his son has of reality.
:18:31. > :18:37.-- a sense. They will try to make a reasonable job with a great deal
:18:37. > :18:44.less. They have got two years of significant cuts. They have been
:18:44. > :18:52.working on spreading less jam to try and get things sustained. The
:18:52. > :18:57.first problem is likely to be the Budget. This is all under the
:18:57. > :19:03.umbrella of a drive for localism. One of the benefits is the shift
:19:03. > :19:11.out of the Home Office. They will regret the loss of the dead hand of
:19:11. > :19:14.the Home Office. But there needs to be a sense of realism. Some people
:19:14. > :19:21.think this will somehow make dramatic improvements. That you
:19:21. > :19:25.will get all the policing you want. That is not in reality. There will
:19:25. > :19:31.be a drop in police numbers. Just getting to the point where
:19:31. > :19:37.everything drops off. More salaries for politicians and less police
:19:38. > :19:44.officers. Localism is all very well and good. But some aspects of
:19:44. > :19:50.policing cannot be local. Terrorism, people trafficking. What about the
:19:50. > :19:54.riots? Police forces had to cooperate. What is going to happen
:19:54. > :20:00.when you have a situation like that again and the Chief Constable wants
:20:00. > :20:05.to send some officers to a neighbourhood? They are
:20:05. > :20:11.establishing an international crime agency. They are aware for the
:20:11. > :20:18.commissioners to cooperate. But he says no. They are Contiki at the
:20:18. > :20:22.offices here. They will not help the people in the next county.
:20:22. > :20:29.would be a pretty tough ties for a PCC to say no when London is
:20:29. > :20:35.burning. That would be a tough dialogue between the PCC and the
:20:35. > :20:40.chief about sustaining that effort. They are going to want the
:20:40. > :20:44.resources visibly in force. There is a range of major operations that
:20:44. > :20:49.could strip that out. Hard questions about continuing to put
:20:49. > :20:56.those resources into a massive search across Wales, for example.
:20:56. > :21:02.This type of choices are going to get scrutiny. The next two years
:21:02. > :21:06.will be hard. Who do want to make those tough decisions? Should they
:21:06. > :21:13.be made by the Chief Constable influenced by the Home Office? What
:21:13. > :21:23.do we want it made by people who are local? People who live in the
:21:23. > :21:27.
:21:27. > :21:31.local community who care about it. There are 193 candidates standing
:21:31. > :21:40.in these elections. Each has to produce a statement about what they
:21:40. > :21:47.want to achieve. Some of them mentioned the military background,
:21:47. > :21:53.some talk about the police authority, and they often use the
:21:53. > :22:01.phrase, the bigger they are, the more the commonly appear. At 55,000
:22:01. > :22:08.words, and the 30 uses of the word alcohol. Is that the right
:22:08. > :22:13.emphasis? One phrase that is quite common is anti-social behaviour. It
:22:13. > :22:23.is the sort of every day low-level nuisance crime that so many of us
:22:23. > :22:26.
:22:26. > :22:30.suffer from. We are going to have a look at some of the CCTV footage.
:22:30. > :22:37.Talk us to what. He is just throwing stones. Just
:22:37. > :22:46.uncontrollable. Kept going to court. Kept trying to get evicted. Life
:22:46. > :22:56.became unbearable. The police hunt proactive any more. They are just
:22:56. > :22:58.
:22:58. > :23:01.reactive. A crime would happen. They cannot do it any more. Oh food
:23:01. > :23:06.intrusive and Gooch who could a do to have someone who is possibly
:23:06. > :23:15.independent. -- I think in principle it would be a good idea.
:23:15. > :23:18.But they do not have enough powers. They need to have a lot more powers.
:23:18. > :23:22.They can look at the case management and find out what is
:23:22. > :23:27.going wrong with it. Starting to look at what is going wrong. This
:23:27. > :23:31.is not just about the police budget. It is trying to figure out why
:23:31. > :23:35.things are ineffectual. Why are numerous crimes committed against
:23:35. > :23:44.people and they are not caught? Why are the prisons not sorting them
:23:44. > :23:49.out? Here is one for you. They should have more power. There is a
:23:49. > :23:54.certain amount of flexibility and legroom for more power to evolve.
:23:54. > :24:00.am not sure they need more power. Their job is to identify it
:24:00. > :24:09.policing needs and to deal with the Chief Constable's and victims'
:24:09. > :24:16.groups to meet these policing needs. They need leadership, not power.
:24:16. > :24:20.totally disagree. The whole problem is that when you get beneath the
:24:20. > :24:28.surface, you need to get to the very basics of why that cases such
:24:28. > :24:34.a problem. To go in and look at the case management. Why is the
:24:34. > :24:38.evidence collection not good enough, or why are you having multiple
:24:38. > :24:45.crimes in areas over and over again? The same people being
:24:45. > :24:50.targeted. The woman who would be successful or man would be
:24:50. > :24:54.successful says they will do this for you and they would be elected?
:24:54. > :25:02.You cannot have the same estate and same street targeted time after
:25:02. > :25:06.time. Anyone who is any good as a PCC will have a map on his wall.
:25:06. > :25:15.They will know where the crimes are. I've seen this and I know what
:25:15. > :25:25.happens. They will go to the Chief Constable and ask why they have got
:25:25. > :25:25.
:25:25. > :25:35.another broker writ for robbery on this estate. -- burglary or. A key
:25:35. > :25:40.point that some have raced. What if nobody votes? For people in gangs,
:25:40. > :25:50.the people affected by gangs disproportionately, do not live in
:25:50. > :25:52.
:25:52. > :25:57.the leafy areas. This is what I feel the danger is. How are you
:25:57. > :26:04.going to communicate with these people in those communities? It
:26:04. > :26:13.cannot just be a one-off thing. you think somebody will stand up
:26:13. > :26:17.and say they will help you? They might go with populist messages.
:26:17. > :26:23.their support within the community they will not want help, they will
:26:23. > :26:31.want to change their community. There needs to be a use worker,
:26:31. > :26:37.someone they can go to and speak to. Could these issues get tackled?
:26:37. > :26:44.Definitely. There needs to be more communication with the young people.
:26:44. > :26:47.The more we come together, the more the problem will be resolved.
:26:47. > :26:54.Already you can see these size of some of the issues we have been