:00:13. > :00:17.Every one has a view on how the streets should be policed.
:00:17. > :00:25.Crackdown on anti-social behaviour, more bobbies on the beat. In just
:00:25. > :00:29.over one week, the way the police operate will change for ever. That
:00:29. > :00:33.is when we elect brand new Police and Crime Commissioner and through
:00:33. > :00:39.them we will get the chance to decide how the police deal with
:00:39. > :00:43.everything from under-aged drinking, graffiti, through to gun crime.
:00:43. > :00:48.Tonight we will explain the idea, look at how it might work and
:00:48. > :00:58.discuss the issues that affect you. This is police elections, time to
:00:58. > :01:06.
:01:06. > :01:11.choose. Millions of people in England and
:01:11. > :01:15.Wales are being given a choice, who do we want to be Our Police and
:01:15. > :01:19.Crime Commissioner. Who do we want to decide the strategy for how safe
:01:19. > :01:26.the streets are and look after victims? Why should we go to the
:01:26. > :01:30.polls on a November night? The new Police and Crime Commissioners
:01:30. > :01:36.really make a difference. And what effect will the changes have way
:01:36. > :01:40.you live? Tonight we look at what the elections mean for all of us.
:01:40. > :01:45.In East Yorkshire and Lincolnshire they will be in charge of to rural
:01:45. > :01:50.and diverse areas. Join me later from the Victorian prison in
:01:50. > :01:56.Lincoln where we hear how you think the money should be spent and where
:01:56. > :02:00.priority should live for the winning candidate. In the next
:02:00. > :02:05.half-hour we will look at what difference the new commissioners
:02:05. > :02:13.will make. Later we will be asking our the crop of candidates out
:02:13. > :02:18.there going in the right direction? Guests tonight include the human
:02:18. > :02:21.rights group Liberty, who think it is disastrous. And the person who
:02:21. > :02:26.helped to design the plan. What will the commission has been
:02:26. > :02:30.responsible for? They will be able to hire and fire a Chief Constable
:02:30. > :02:35.and deliver a five-year police and crime clan and come up with the
:02:35. > :02:40.Budget. They will have to regularly consult us on the way they police
:02:40. > :02:45.the streets and they might also be able to extend their influence as
:02:45. > :02:49.to how justice is administered through the courts. These
:02:49. > :02:55.characters will manage multi- million-pound organisations. They
:02:55. > :02:59.will develop a plan that covers populations of min mints -- of
:02:59. > :03:04.millions. It is a huge task and we try to find out what the job is
:03:04. > :03:10.about. The police have to manage all types
:03:10. > :03:15.of crime, whether it is violent crime in the City or anti-social
:03:15. > :03:19.behaviour in the countryside. The Government campaign it is hard
:03:19. > :03:24.hitting, but the new commissioner will have to tap into everyday
:03:24. > :03:30.concerns. The gangs that hang around in the park. Doing speed
:03:30. > :03:34.tests on my road they look it -- use it like a motorway. More on the
:03:34. > :03:39.beat. They job is to listen to the public and in the run-up to
:03:39. > :03:43.elections, candidates are making their promises to win votes. Once
:03:43. > :03:48.in office, they may discover how complex policing is, with
:03:48. > :03:56.conflicting demands. In Middlesbrough, anti-social
:03:56. > :04:00.behaviour takes up most police time. This man has suffered ten years of
:04:00. > :04:05.abuse including two petrol bomb attacks on his home. He knows what
:04:05. > :04:09.he wants from the new Police and Crime Commissioner. They need to
:04:10. > :04:14.sort out the estate with more police on the beat. Without that,
:04:14. > :04:19.people will suffer more. We need to target the people causing the
:04:19. > :04:24.trouble within communities. Police on the beat may reassure people
:04:24. > :04:28.their communities are safe, but applying them everywhere and all
:04:28. > :04:33.the time is impossible. Different crime needs different policing.
:04:33. > :04:37.Take this place in North Yorkshire where crime is relatively low.
:04:37. > :04:47.Bobbies on the beat are not a priority, but recently the village
:04:47. > :04:52.post office had the cash was -- cash machine sternum. Karen's
:04:52. > :04:59.property has been broken into twice -- stolen. She is concerned rural
:04:59. > :05:01.areas will be overlooked by the new Police and Crime Commissioner.
:05:01. > :05:06.concerned the Police and Crime Commissioner might think that petty
:05:06. > :05:13.crime does not matter, but it does matter to people, especially in
:05:13. > :05:20.rural areas. If somebody takes your trailer, bicycle, breaks into your
:05:20. > :05:23.shed, it affects those people and we pay taxes and we matter. So it
:05:23. > :05:28.is up to the Police and Crime Commissioner to deliver policing
:05:28. > :05:33.relevant to you and do it with limited resources. That is not the
:05:33. > :05:36.only challenge. There is the issue of personalities. The new Police
:05:36. > :05:41.and Crime Commissioner will set us there priorities for the Chief
:05:41. > :05:47.Constable. How will they get on? Can they agreed on how to achieve
:05:47. > :05:52.what the public want, a reduction in crime? This is a former Chief
:05:52. > :05:56.Constable who knows how tough that job is. He thinks the job of the
:05:56. > :06:01.new Police and Crime Commissioner will be even harder. It is
:06:01. > :06:05.challenging. The individual will need to understand the police
:06:05. > :06:09.service and have a lot of political knowledge. They need to know how to
:06:09. > :06:14.run an enormous organisation and have the confidence of the public
:06:14. > :06:20.and media. It is a virtually impossible task for anyone to do
:06:20. > :06:25.that. Strong words. Virtually impossible task for any one
:06:25. > :06:31.individual. I do not think that is right. He is talking about managing
:06:31. > :06:34.the police force. The Chief Constable will manage the force.
:06:34. > :06:39.The Police and Crime Commissioner is a political leader who will look
:06:39. > :06:44.at decisions about priorities and identify policing needs. He will
:06:44. > :06:50.not be managing the force on a day- to-day basis. There is a management
:06:50. > :06:55.team who have been trained for that and they are paid for that. There
:06:56. > :07:00.was a lot at the beginning about changing police operations. It will
:07:00. > :07:06.not affect operations except if the Chief Constable wants them to
:07:06. > :07:11.change. It is about priorities and focusing on needs, identifying the
:07:11. > :07:15.needs and making sure the Chief Constable meets them. It is power
:07:15. > :07:21.to the people? It is power to another elected politician and we
:07:21. > :07:27.have seen too much political interference in policing already.
:07:27. > :07:31.It is democracy. To democracy is not just about having elections.
:07:31. > :07:35.Elected politicians are not the only people with authority in a
:07:35. > :07:40.democracy, you have to have the rule of law. Politicians that the
:07:41. > :07:46.laws, but you need independent professionals who serve the
:07:47. > :07:53.community, whether they vote or not, young and old, minorities and
:07:53. > :07:59.popular majorities. I am worried the charismatic local politician if
:07:59. > :08:04.that is who he is, and it will normally be a he, and I am worried
:08:04. > :08:08.this politician is going to be looking for headlines and the
:08:08. > :08:16.popular causes and not serving the tough needs of the entire community,
:08:16. > :08:20.no matter how vulnerable they are. I just do not agree. They serve a
:08:20. > :08:26.whole of their communities when they are elected. The mayor serves
:08:26. > :08:29.the whole of the community of London. I do not think we need to
:08:29. > :08:34.worry about Police and Crime Commissioners neglecting parts of
:08:34. > :08:41.their community. They want the law to be administered with an even
:08:41. > :08:45.hand. They do not want judges and police chiefs being elected, and we
:08:45. > :08:52.Poles the public about the system, whether they preferred the existing
:08:52. > :08:58.system were the Chief Constable and broader police authority. 65% said
:08:58. > :09:06.they would rather have the current system. Only 15% thought they would
:09:06. > :09:11.trust the elected politician. have said that it may be a low
:09:12. > :09:17.turnout. You have said people do not understand the concept of this
:09:17. > :09:22.role in one individual's hands. You say the elections after this will
:09:22. > :09:28.be the ones that are significant. What will the next four years be, a
:09:28. > :09:31.pilot? No, it will be a period when the Police and Crime Commissioners
:09:32. > :09:36.make a difference in the communities and members of the
:09:36. > :09:40.communities realise that this person is someone who can make a
:09:40. > :09:45.difference to their lines. Suddenly, you will find that whereas now
:09:45. > :09:50.people have not heard of them, they regard crime as something done to
:09:50. > :09:54.them, not something they can control. If he does not interfere
:09:54. > :10:00.in operations, what is the transformation going to do in
:10:00. > :10:03.people's lives? I believe in inspirational leadership and the
:10:03. > :10:07.Police and Crime Commissioner can get a more effective police force
:10:07. > :10:12.by inspiring and leading and supporting the Chief Constable. I
:10:12. > :10:18.do not see this as a conflict. its talk about the practical and
:10:18. > :10:24.the biggest police cover-up in criminal history, Hillsborough. You
:10:24. > :10:27.lost your two lovely children at Hillsborough. You are campaigners.
:10:27. > :10:33.If you had had a Police and Crime Commissioner answerable to people
:10:33. > :10:39.like you, would you have felt without a voice for so long? That
:10:39. > :10:45.current system has not worked for us. Some of the decisions the local
:10:45. > :10:48.police authorities are not making have not worked for us. Such a set
:10:48. > :10:53.and people should have been suspended because of allegations.
:10:53. > :10:57.It did not happen. The think the commissioner, because he is
:10:57. > :11:02.answerable, he can be kicked out, that would have been a better
:11:02. > :11:06.situation for you? I would hope so. That there would be more
:11:06. > :11:12.transparency. That there would be more accountability because they
:11:12. > :11:21.were elected. Peter, as a former top policeman, more transparency
:11:21. > :11:25.and accountability? Politicians are not unknown for deciding not to
:11:25. > :11:31.open up and be transparent just before an election, so I do not
:11:31. > :11:35.think that is a given. You would need other leaders to resolve the
:11:35. > :11:41.situation revolving around Hillsborough. There are other
:11:41. > :11:45.facets. Police authorities to meet in public meetings. Not with a huge
:11:45. > :11:50.audience because they are not interesting for many. But they are
:11:50. > :11:55.a public meeting. Most decisions taken between their Chief Constable
:11:55. > :12:02.and Police and Crime Commissioner will be taken on their own. Somehow,
:12:02. > :12:07.some of the decision-making in public might go. And it is for the
:12:07. > :12:12.individual who takes on the role to make sure the public transparently
:12:12. > :12:17.see the decisions being taken. could get personality clashes.
:12:17. > :12:23.is a possibility. Most chief constables will want to make the
:12:23. > :12:30.relationship work. I think that will be unlikely to happen. I can
:12:30. > :12:34.hear what you are saying. I did not realise that it would not be in an
:12:34. > :12:40.open forum that the decisions would be made, so that is worrying and
:12:40. > :12:44.not good for transparency. I come back to accountability and being
:12:45. > :12:49.elected by the public. I agreed there should be accountability and
:12:49. > :12:53.what happened with Hillsborough is one of the greatest policing
:12:53. > :13:01.scandals. The police should have been accountable to the law and I
:13:02. > :13:08.am not sure... It was people power that forced to change. Is this an
:13:08. > :13:13.expression of democratic will? Generations of politicians did not
:13:13. > :13:19.deal with this situation. Are you concerned that a Police and Crime
:13:19. > :13:23.Commissioner might not share your liberal agenda? Not at all, I am
:13:23. > :13:27.making a constitutional point. It is about saying you need checks and
:13:27. > :13:37.balances in democracy and independent people as well as
:13:37. > :13:39.
:13:39. > :13:45.political people. I no more have an elected charge -- back I would.
:13:45. > :13:52.They do not necessarily serve a whole community. I see it
:13:53. > :13:57.differently. This is a job that relates and concerns the
:13:57. > :14:02.allegations of scarce resources. We know that is a role for politicians.
:14:02. > :14:09.Policing needs are in for that and resources are limited. Some body
:14:09. > :14:13.has to make a decision. Is it a Chief Constable or a free elected
:14:13. > :14:19.Police and Crime Commissioner who has to defend his actions and every
:14:19. > :14:23.day the media will ensure this is transparent. Thanks. Later, we will
:14:24. > :14:28.be looking at what the candidates themselves say they will do if they
:14:28. > :14:37.are elected and what their priorities are. The commission
:14:37. > :14:40.plural will have a big effect on 150 years ago, convicted criminals
:14:40. > :14:46.may well have found themselves locked up here at the prison within
:14:46. > :14:49.the walls of Lincoln Castle. During the mid-19th century, this prison
:14:49. > :14:56.housed people from all walks of life who found themselves on the
:14:56. > :15:00.wrong side of the law. At the same time, one of the last County police
:15:00. > :15:05.forces to be created in England was here in Lincolnshire. Then, like
:15:05. > :15:08.now, the force was run by the Chief Constable. A week tomorrow, voters
:15:08. > :15:11.in Lincolnshire and in the Humberside police area will choose
:15:11. > :15:16.their police and crime commissioners. They'll decide how
:15:16. > :15:23.money is spent on policing the area. The Humberside force has a budget
:15:23. > :15:33.of �181.7 million and more than 1,800 full time officers. There are
:15:33. > :15:35.seven candidates. Godfrey Bloom, an MEP who is standing for UKIP.
:15:35. > :15:38.Simone Butterworth for the Liberal Democrats. Paul Davison and Neil
:15:38. > :15:40.Eyre who are both independents. Lord John Prescott is the Labour
:15:40. > :15:46.Candidate, Matthew Grove is standing for the conservatives and
:15:46. > :15:49.Walter Sweeney as an independent. In Lincolnshire the commissioner
:15:49. > :15:53.will run a budget of 113 million pounds, the smallest of any force
:15:53. > :15:57.in the country per head of population. There are just over
:15:57. > :16:00.1,100 full-time officers working in the county. These are the
:16:00. > :16:04.candidates you'll be voting for. David Bowles from the Campaign To
:16:04. > :16:07.Stop Politicians Running Policing. Richard Davies is the conservative
:16:07. > :16:11.candidate, Paul Gleeson is standing for Labour and Alan Hardwick is an
:16:11. > :16:18.independent. One thing both forces have in common is large areas of
:16:18. > :16:21.countryside. That creates a challenge for resources. Tim
:16:21. > :16:31.Iredale has been to Holton-Le-Clay on the border of both forces to
:16:31. > :16:37.hear what people there will expect Estate agents may well describe
:16:37. > :16:40.Holton-Le Clay as a quiet village offering the best in rural living.
:16:40. > :16:50.But some residents and business owners say in recent years, there's
:16:50. > :16:59.been a darker side to life in this corner of Lincolnshire. One village
:16:59. > :17:08.shopkeeper described his fears. What sort of problems do you have
:17:08. > :17:14.here? People stealing from the shop. Kids drinking and creating trouble.
:17:14. > :17:18.Making a nuisance? Yes, that's right. We have an influx of young
:17:18. > :17:22.people who would come in on a Saturday night, drinking and
:17:22. > :17:28.causing mayhem. The council put measures and place and the police
:17:28. > :17:38.gave us a bit more presence. Tonight, the streets of Holton-Le-
:17:38. > :17:43.Clay a quiet. This youth club has been set up to keep teenagers off
:17:43. > :17:52.the streets. Why is there so much anti-social behaviour on the
:17:52. > :17:56.streets? There is not much to do. There is just nothing. We live on
:17:56. > :18:03.the periphery of Lincolnshire police force. It is very rare to
:18:03. > :18:09.see police officers here. That would be a thing parishioners of
:18:09. > :18:14.this affair which would like to see. -- of this village it would like to
:18:14. > :18:20.see. And that appears to be the prevailing viewpoint in towns and
:18:20. > :18:26.villages across the country. People want more police on the beat. But
:18:26. > :18:29.how can the candidates deliver that when in resources are limited?
:18:29. > :18:35.would introduce a new community- based special constable in the
:18:35. > :18:38.community. Also, I would try to make sure that those who perpetrate
:18:38. > :18:44.and social behaviour actually have some serious consequences for their
:18:44. > :18:48.actions, because all too often, there are no consequences.
:18:49. > :18:54.reason rural crime is increasing is because the police are increasingly
:18:54. > :18:58.disconnected from the way the Rawle countryside works. We need police
:18:58. > :19:02.visible in our towns and villages. Amid the people in our towns and
:19:02. > :19:07.villages to feel able to ring the police to let them know what is
:19:07. > :19:13.going on. If you saw more police officers on patrol, with young
:19:13. > :19:19.people be better behaved? They would try to be. I think it would
:19:19. > :19:23.have quite a big effect on young people's behaviour. The police and
:19:23. > :19:27.crime Commission has to redress the balance of funding in urban or
:19:27. > :19:32.rural areas. We need to reintroduce parish based special constables,
:19:32. > :19:37.working with parish councils, the farming community and local
:19:37. > :19:43.business communities. I have spoken out went for -- at length to
:19:43. > :19:47.officers of all ranks and I know where money can be saved. I have no
:19:48. > :19:51.fears about finding money to make sure that the policing of
:19:51. > :19:55.Lincolnshire doesn't deteriorate any further, that the cards don't
:19:55. > :19:58.affect us any more. Lincolnshire Police say they've increased the
:19:58. > :20:08.number of PSCOs in rural areas and they're working with local councils
:20:08. > :20:11.
:20:11. > :20:15.to put up CCTV cameras to deal with anti-social behaviour. Villages
:20:15. > :20:18.like Holton-Le-Clay may not top the crime league table. But people here
:20:18. > :20:27.want to feel reassured that the thin blue line extends beyond the
:20:27. > :20:30.big towns and cities and into the Tim Iredale reporting. With me now
:20:30. > :20:32.to discuss the challenges facing the new Police Crime and
:20:32. > :20:35.Commissioners are Mervyn Bishop from Victim Support Humber, a group
:20:35. > :20:45.which supports victims of crime and a former Deputy Chief Constable of
:20:45. > :20:47.
:20:47. > :20:51.Lincolnshire Police, Alan Goldsmith. What other priorities for you? --
:20:51. > :20:55.what are the priorities? One of the first priorities is to gain some
:20:55. > :20:59.credibility for the role because there is so much cynicism about it.
:20:59. > :21:03.That will require someone who is able to work with the police chiefs
:21:03. > :21:08.in the two forces, who can ensure they have a real understanding of
:21:08. > :21:12.what is required in the role. can they balance local demands for
:21:12. > :21:16.era rural area like Lincolnshire against the bigger issues? If I
:21:16. > :21:26.knew the answer for that, I might have gone -- applied for the drop
:21:26. > :21:28.
:21:28. > :21:33.myself. It is a real challenge. Where would you like to see the
:21:33. > :21:37.money prioritised, Mervyn? It is not just the money. It is the
:21:37. > :21:40.actions that they need to take to ensure that there listening to the
:21:40. > :21:44.voices of the victims. The other thing is to ensure that the
:21:44. > :21:49.priority has got to be the needs of individual victims, and not only
:21:49. > :21:54.the needs of them as a whole but when they really need them, when
:21:54. > :21:58.the individual victim once thatched. Are victims of crime getting enough
:21:58. > :22:03.attention at the moment? A I don't think they are at the moment. A lot
:22:03. > :22:07.more could be done. I think they need to be listening to what
:22:07. > :22:15.victims want. How high on the commissioner's agenda should
:22:15. > :22:19.victims of crime be? It is key. Victims of what the police service
:22:19. > :22:23.are there to protect. Is the question of what you can do with
:22:23. > :22:29.what funds you have. One final question. In a sentence, if you
:22:29. > :22:37.could get the commissioner to do one thing, what would it be? Per at
:22:37. > :22:42.victims first. Work with the police force and continue what police
:22:42. > :22:45.authorities have been doing so well for so many years.
:22:45. > :22:48.Alan Goldsmith and Mervyn Bishop thank you. And the debate continues
:22:48. > :22:51.tomorrow morning on your BBC local radio station. BBC Radio Humberside
:22:51. > :22:54.and BBC Radio Lincolnshire will be talking to the candidates from nine
:22:54. > :23:04.o'clock. A week tomorrow you can vote for who you want to run
:23:04. > :23:11.
:23:11. > :23:17.policing where you live in East There are 193 candidate standing in
:23:17. > :23:22.these elections. Each must take what they wanted to. Some mention
:23:22. > :23:27.their military background, some talk about their role with the
:23:27. > :23:34.police authority -- want to achieve a. The bigger they are, the more
:23:34. > :23:41.they commonly appear. Crime, hundreds of references, 60
:23:41. > :23:45.references to drugs, but only 30 references to the word alcohol. Is
:23:45. > :23:51.that the right emphasis? And one phrase that is quite common is
:23:51. > :24:01.anti-social behaviour. It is mentioned 117 times. That is the
:24:01. > :24:01.
:24:01. > :24:07.everyday, low-level nuisance crime so many of us suffer from. You have
:24:07. > :24:14.even set up CCTV cameras? Will go to have a look at some of that
:24:15. > :24:21.footage now. Talk us through it. Yes, it is just uncontrollable. He
:24:21. > :24:29.kept trying to get evicted. In the end, life became unbearable. The
:24:30. > :24:37.big problem is, the police are not proactive any more. The crime would
:24:37. > :24:40.happen and they can't do that anymore. So a police and crime
:24:40. > :24:44.commissioner would galvanise them? In principle, it's a really good
:24:44. > :24:48.idea that she would have somebody who is possibly independent because
:24:48. > :24:52.the authorities to mark their own homework all the time. But I don't
:24:52. > :24:56.think they have enough powers. They need to be able to audit cases, as
:24:56. > :25:01.soon as the case has gone on for a deer, they look at the case
:25:01. > :25:06.management, they look at what has gone wrong with it -- gone on for a
:25:06. > :25:11.year. It is not just about police and budgets, it is trying to
:25:11. > :25:14.understand what is going wrong and why it is ineffectual. Why are
:25:14. > :25:24.numerous crimes committed against people and the people are not
:25:24. > :25:26.
:25:26. > :25:31.caught? Not enough power? There is a certain amount of flexibility,
:25:31. > :25:36.isn't there? There is legroom for more powers to revolve? I'm not
:25:36. > :25:40.sure they need more power. Getting their job is to identify a policing
:25:40. > :25:44.needs and to deal with their chief constables and voluntary
:25:44. > :25:50.organisations and the victims' groups to meet these policing needs.
:25:50. > :25:53.I don't think they need power, I think they need leadership.
:25:53. > :26:00.totally disagree because the whole problem is, when you start getting
:26:00. > :26:05.beneath the surface of what people are saying, you need to get to the
:26:05. > :26:13.very basics of why that cases such a problem. They need to going and
:26:13. > :26:23.at the case management, look at who is saying what and why, why are you
:26:23. > :26:23.
:26:23. > :26:31.having multiple crimes in areas are over and over again? The woman or
:26:31. > :26:36.man who would be successful and he would say, I'm going to do this,
:26:36. > :26:40.and he would get elected. You can't have the same street targeted time
:26:40. > :26:50.after time. Anybody who was any good as the PCC will have a map on
:26:50. > :26:52.
:26:52. > :27:02.the wall and will know whether crimes are. -- where the crimes are.
:27:02. > :27:02.
:27:02. > :27:06.They will say, why have we got another robbery on this estate to?
:27:06. > :27:16.It is a different story from investigating a particular case.
:27:16. > :27:16.
:27:17. > :27:23.The key point that some have raced, -- raised, people in Gancz,
:27:24. > :27:30.affected by gangsters up -- disproportionately, do not live
:27:30. > :27:35.under leafy areas. So, are you going to be listened to? This is
:27:35. > :27:44.what I feel is the danger in the community. How are you going to
:27:44. > :27:54.communicate with these people? you think somebody standing is
:27:54. > :27:57.going to stand up and say, I am going to help you people? I think
:27:57. > :28:02.if there is support within the Community, the computer is a
:28:02. > :28:06.growing to want to help -- the communities are going to want to
:28:06. > :28:11.help. There needs to be someone there that they can go to and speak
:28:11. > :28:13.to on a regular basis to get some of these issues tackled. Do you
:28:13. > :28:23.think they can get tackled with police and crime commissioners
:28:23. > :28:27.
:28:27. > :28:30.could mark definitely. Definitely. Thank you very much.
:28:30. > :28:34.Already you can see the size of some of the issues we are talking
:28:34. > :28:40.about. If you want to hear more from the candidates themselves,