:00:13. > :00:20.Everyone has a view on how the streets it should be policed.
:00:20. > :00:26.Cracking down on anti-social behaviour. More bobbies on the beat.
:00:26. > :00:30.Soon, at the way that the police operate will change for ever. That
:00:30. > :00:35.is when we are let brand-new police and Crown Commissioners. Through
:00:35. > :00:42.them, we will get the chance to decide how that the police deal
:00:42. > :00:47.with everything. Tonight, we are going to explain the idea, look at
:00:47. > :00:57.how it might work and discuss the issues that affect you. This is
:00:57. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:13.Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice, who
:01:14. > :01:18.do we want to be a police and crime Commissioner? Who do we want to
:01:18. > :01:25.decide the strategy for say streets, to look after victims? Why should
:01:25. > :01:30.be cut to the polls next week? The new police and Crown Commissioners
:01:30. > :01:34.really make a difference. And what effect will the changes have agreed
:01:34. > :01:38.you love? Tonight, we will be looking at what these elections
:01:38. > :01:42.means for all of us. Here in the South East, or we will
:01:42. > :01:46.be looking at the crimes that you are most concerned about. We will
:01:46. > :01:56.be asking what issues you would like them to address and I will be
:01:56. > :01:57.
:01:57. > :02:00.finding out what their powers and So, in the next have a work we are
:02:00. > :02:05.going to be looking at what difference these new police
:02:05. > :02:12.commissioners are going to make. Later in the programme, we will be
:02:12. > :02:19.asking Aga candidates going in the right direction? I guess there
:02:19. > :02:24.might include people who think it is a terrible idea and the man who
:02:24. > :02:27.helped to design the plan. What all these police commissioner has been
:02:27. > :02:32.responsible for? They will be able to hire and fire at Chief Constable.
:02:32. > :02:36.They will have to deliver a five- year policing plan and come up with
:02:36. > :02:41.a budget. And they will have to regularly consult the public on how
:02:41. > :02:45.the police the streets. They may also be able to extend their
:02:45. > :02:49.influence to how justice is administered through the courts.
:02:49. > :02:54.These characters will be the managing multi-million-pound
:02:54. > :03:04.organisations and developing a plan that includes a huge populations.
:03:04. > :03:07.
:03:07. > :03:12.The police have to manage all types of crime, whether that is violent
:03:12. > :03:16.crime or anti-social behaviour in the countryside. The Government's
:03:16. > :03:20.advertising campaign is hard hitting, but the new police and
:03:20. > :03:26.crime commissioner will have to tap into people's everyday concerns.
:03:26. > :03:32.The gangs that hang around, especially in the park. The need to
:03:32. > :03:37.do more speed tests. The crime Commissioner's job is to listen to
:03:37. > :03:41.the public and in the run-up to the elections the candidates are out
:03:41. > :03:47.making their policies to win votes. But once in office, they may
:03:47. > :03:51.discover just how complex policing errors, with conflicting demands.
:03:51. > :03:57.Here in Middlesbrough, anti-social behaviour takes up most police
:03:57. > :04:00.crime falls -- time. This man has suffered ten years of abuse,
:04:01. > :04:07.including two petrol bomb attacks on his home. He knows exactly what
:04:07. > :04:12.he wants from the new police and Crown Commissioners. More police on
:04:12. > :04:17.the beat, because without that people are going to suffer more.
:04:17. > :04:20.The need to target the people causing trouble within communities.
:04:20. > :04:24.Police on the beat may have reassure people their communities
:04:24. > :04:30.are safe, but deploying them everywhere, all the time, is
:04:30. > :04:33.impossible. Different crimes need to different policing. Take this
:04:33. > :04:38.small area in North Yorkshire for a crime is relatively low. Bobbies on
:04:38. > :04:42.the beat are not a priority. But recently the village post office
:04:42. > :04:47.had its cash machines stolen so people round here still want their
:04:47. > :04:51.feared -- their fair share of belief in. This property has been
:04:51. > :04:57.broken into twice. The owner is concerned that rural areas there
:04:57. > :05:03.will be overlooked by the new police and Crown Commissioners.
:05:03. > :05:07.concern is that they might think that petty crime, as it is labelled,
:05:07. > :05:13.up does not matter, but it does matter to people, especially in
:05:13. > :05:16.rural areas. If someone takes your trailer or you bright -- bike or
:05:16. > :05:21.the break and you shed its, then it does affect those people and we pay
:05:21. > :05:26.our taxes as well and the matter. So it is up to the crime
:05:26. > :05:31.Commissioner to listen and deliver policing relevant to you, and to do
:05:31. > :05:36.it with limited resources. But that is not the only challenge. There is
:05:36. > :05:40.the tricky issue of personalities. They will set the priorities for a
:05:40. > :05:47.chief constable. How will they get on and can they agree on how to
:05:47. > :05:50.achieve what the public wants to see? A reduction in crime. Keith
:05:51. > :05:53.Halliwell is a former chief constable and a nose out of that
:05:53. > :05:58.job is. But he thinks that the job of the new police and Crown
:05:58. > :06:01.commissioner will be even harder. It is enormously challenging
:06:01. > :06:06.because the individual will need to understand the police service. They
:06:06. > :06:13.will have to have a lot of political nous and know how to run
:06:13. > :06:17.an enormous organisations. It is a virtually impossible tax -- task
:06:17. > :06:22.for any individual. If strong words there.
:06:22. > :06:27.Virtually impossible task for any what one individual. I do not think
:06:27. > :06:34.that is right. He is talking about managing the chief force. The chief
:06:34. > :06:39.constable will manage the due for - - the police force. We're talking
:06:39. > :06:45.about a political leader talking about priorities and police needs.
:06:45. > :06:53.But he is not going to be managing the force on a day-to-day basis.
:06:53. > :06:59.There are other people trained for that and paid for that. This is not
:06:59. > :07:04.about changing police operations. Except if the Chief Constable wants
:07:04. > :07:08.them to change. It is about priorities. It is about focusing on
:07:08. > :07:13.people's needs, identifying those needs and making sure that the
:07:13. > :07:18.Chief Constable meets them. To his power to the people. It is not, it
:07:18. > :07:24.has power to another elected politician and I think we have seen
:07:24. > :07:29.too much interference in policing recently. Democracy is not just
:07:29. > :07:34.about having elections. Elected politicians are not the only people
:07:34. > :07:39.with authority in a democracy. You also have to have looked role of
:07:39. > :07:43.loss. Of course pop -- of course politicians set a loss, but then
:07:43. > :07:49.you need independent professionals who served the whole community,
:07:49. > :07:56.whether they vote are not, a young and old, minorities and majorities.
:07:56. > :08:03.I am worried that is a charismatic local politician, it rather than a
:08:03. > :08:06.police authority, I am worried that this politician is going to be
:08:06. > :08:10.looking for the headlines and the popular causes and not serving a
:08:10. > :08:17.bit tough needs of the entire community, no matter how vulnerable
:08:17. > :08:21.they are. I just do not agree. At the Members of Parliament serve
:08:21. > :08:27.their whole communities when they are elected. I think Meyer's serve
:08:27. > :08:32.the whole committee of London's. I do not think we need to worry about
:08:32. > :08:38.these people neglecting parts of the communities. But the public
:08:38. > :08:41.what the law to be administered with an even hand. People to the
:08:41. > :08:47.public last year about whether they wanted this new system or whether
:08:47. > :08:53.they preferred the existing system with chief constable and a broader
:08:53. > :08:59.police authority and 65 % of the people we polled said they would
:08:59. > :09:04.rather stick with the status quo. Only 15 % thought that they would
:09:04. > :09:09.trust the elected politician. were on the record as saying it may
:09:09. > :09:14.well be a poor turnout. But you have also said that people do not
:09:15. > :09:18.yet understand the concept of his role in one individual's hands. You
:09:18. > :09:22.were saying that it is the elections after this one that are
:09:22. > :09:27.going to be significant. What are the next four years going to be?
:09:27. > :09:31.Account of pilot? No, the next four years are going to be a period when
:09:31. > :09:34.they would begin to make a difference in their communities and
:09:34. > :09:39.members of the community begin to realise that this is someone that
:09:39. > :09:46.can make a difference to their lives. Suddenly, you will find,
:09:46. > :09:52.whereas now people have never heard of PCC's, at a record fine as
:09:52. > :09:55.something done to them,... Effort is not going to interfere in
:09:55. > :10:00.operational policing, of what is this great transformation he is
:10:00. > :10:05.going to make in people's lives? believe in inspirational leadership.
:10:05. > :10:09.I believe he can get a more effective police force by inspiring
:10:09. > :10:15.and reading and supporting the chief constable. I do not see this
:10:15. > :10:22.as a conflict... Let us talk about the practicals and the biggest
:10:22. > :10:26.police cover up in police history, the Hillsborough disaster. I just
:10:26. > :10:30.wonder if you had had a police and Crown Commissioner there who was
:10:30. > :10:35.answerable to good people like yourself, would you have felt a
:10:35. > :10:39.voiceless for so long? The current system does not seem to have worked
:10:39. > :10:45.for us. Some of the decisions that the local police authorities are
:10:45. > :10:50.not making have not worked for us. Certain people should have been
:10:50. > :10:56.suspended because of allegations about them and it did not happen.
:10:56. > :11:00.So you think that a police and crime commissioner, he or she...
:11:00. > :11:06.That would have been a better situation for you? I would have
:11:06. > :11:10.coped so, I would have called for more transparency. That there would
:11:10. > :11:16.have been more accountability because they were elected. You are
:11:16. > :11:20.former top policemen. More transparency and accountability? Is
:11:20. > :11:25.there is a possibility? I think it depends. Politicians are not
:11:25. > :11:32.unknown for deciding to open up and be transparent be fought an
:11:33. > :11:38.election so why do not think it is bad given that would happen. There
:11:38. > :11:42.are one or two facets of the new role, police authorities for all
:11:42. > :11:45.their flaws do at least open up meetings, not with a huge audience
:11:45. > :11:49.because they are not wildly interesting for memory it -- for
:11:49. > :11:53.many, but they are at least a public meeting. The majority of
:11:53. > :11:58.decisions taken between achieve and a crime and police commissioner are
:11:58. > :12:01.going to be taking over a cup of coffee in a room. Some of that
:12:02. > :12:05.public decision-making might go and there is a real onus on the
:12:05. > :12:08.individuals who take on this role for to make sure that the public
:12:08. > :12:13.transparently seek the decisions taken and are not just done in
:12:13. > :12:19.smoke-filled rooms. You could get horrendous personality clashes.
:12:19. > :12:28.that is a distinct possibility. Most chiefs will want to make that
:12:28. > :12:32.a relationship work. I can hear what you're saying. I did not
:12:32. > :12:38.realise that it would not be in an open forum that decisions would be
:12:38. > :12:41.made, so that is quite worrying. That is not good for transparency.
:12:41. > :12:45.However, I go back to the accountability of being elected by
:12:45. > :12:49.the public. I agree that there should be accountability and what
:12:49. > :12:53.happened with Hills brat is one of the greatest policing scandals of
:12:53. > :12:58.my lifetime. The police there should have been accountable to the
:12:58. > :13:04.law and I am not sure that... ultimately it was people power that
:13:05. > :13:12.forced to change here. Isn't this an expression... But generations of
:13:12. > :13:15.elected politicians... Had I just worry... Are you concerned that a
:13:15. > :13:19.police and Crown Commissioner it might just not sure you're a
:13:20. > :13:24.liberal agenda? Not at all. This is a constitutional point that I am
:13:24. > :13:29.making. It is not about an agenda. It is about saying that you need
:13:29. > :13:36.checks and balances in a democracy, you need independent people as well
:13:36. > :13:41.as political people. I would no more have an elected judge. I think
:13:41. > :13:43.if you could policing in hands of elected politicians they do not
:13:43. > :13:50.necessarily serve the whole community just the most popular
:13:50. > :13:55.bits. I see it completely differently. This is a job that
:13:55. > :14:01.relates to, at that concerns, the allocations of scarce resources. We
:14:01. > :14:07.have always known that that is a job for politicians. Police
:14:07. > :14:10.resources are limited. Someone has to make that decision. Is it a
:14:10. > :14:15.freely elected police and crime commissioner who has to defend his
:14:15. > :14:19.actions at the polls? Every day as well, the local media will ensure
:14:19. > :14:22.that this is transparent. Thank you very much.
:14:22. > :14:27.Later we are going to be looking at what the candidates themselves say
:14:27. > :14:37.they are going to do if they are elected. These commissioners are
:14:37. > :14:40.
:14:40. > :14:47.going to have a huge effect on Hello, welcome to the Chatham
:14:47. > :14:51.Historic Dockyard. In less than 10 days' time, voters in Sussex and
:14:51. > :14:58.Surrey will elect their new PCC's it in the biggest shake-up to
:14:58. > :15:02.policing since 1879. But what do you know about the elections? What
:15:02. > :15:07.issues would you like them to focus on? What are their powers and
:15:07. > :15:13.responsibilities? We will be discussing all of those with air --
:15:13. > :15:21.with an invited panel. But first, Our correspondent Colin Campbell
:15:21. > :15:28.has been seeing how the new PCCs will affect our lives.
:15:28. > :15:32.It is a US concept on the way to the South East. Police crime
:15:32. > :15:37.commissioners arrive here in a matter of days. The job of the PCCs
:15:37. > :15:41.will be to listen to the public and respond to their needs. But what
:15:41. > :15:44.issues will they have to address here in the South East? What
:15:44. > :15:53.difference will they make? Rural crime in the South East increased
:15:53. > :15:59.by 20 % last year. Thieves have struck five times at John Chapman's
:15:59. > :16:06.Farm near Ashford in Kent since Christmas. Breaking fences, driving
:16:07. > :16:11.through the crops. A what do you hope the PCC can do for you?
:16:11. > :16:17.presence in the area. Commissioners will control police budgets and set
:16:17. > :16:23.priorities. A bank robber turned government adviser believes the
:16:23. > :16:29.role will help drive down crime. Listen to people in the street.
:16:29. > :16:33.People know what money needs to be sent on. That will show what needs
:16:33. > :16:38.to be -- what will be most affected, rather than a police officer saying,
:16:38. > :16:44.what more cars on the street. The PCC might say you may want more
:16:44. > :16:52.cars, but the public want more visibility. Total recorded crime is
:16:52. > :16:55.down in Kent and Sussex. Across the two counties, there were 145,000
:16:55. > :17:00.reported incidence of anti-social behaviour in the last year. We get
:17:00. > :17:06.street drinkers from early in the morning to late at night. Is there
:17:06. > :17:13.a drugs problem here? There is in various areas. We have had two all
:17:13. > :17:18.three major hits. On this estate in Brighton, residents want police to
:17:18. > :17:22.contact -- target those who make other people's lives hell. I want
:17:22. > :17:27.more put into neighbourhood policing because that works here.
:17:27. > :17:33.With the officers we have, work very well, I would take that away
:17:33. > :17:41.from them, but then me to be more of them. Lucas pike is an X
:17:41. > :17:45.offender who lives on the Whitehall estate. He was assigned a mentor.
:17:45. > :17:51.hope the commissioners will take time to look at the project's -- a
:17:51. > :17:59.look at prevention as well as rehabilitation. Relations between a
:17:59. > :18:07.young people and the police, improving that is Lucas's hope.
:18:07. > :18:11.icy police, I am suspicious. -- When I see police. It is clear that
:18:11. > :18:19.across the South East, there are many hopes and expectations as to
:18:19. > :18:24.what BPCCs will achieve. The candidates are promising to hit
:18:24. > :18:27.the ground running when they take office. Top of their agenda will be
:18:27. > :18:35.tackling anti-social behaviour. Addressing issues like bobbies on
:18:35. > :18:39.the beat, robbery, burglary and domestic violence. So, how
:18:39. > :18:44.successful is the role likely to be? Supporters believe that it will
:18:44. > :18:48.make policing more accountable and democratic. But one high-profile
:18:48. > :18:53.critic has urged voters to boycott the election. The Electoral Reform
:18:53. > :19:00.Society has predicted that the turnout could be lower than 18.5 %,
:19:00. > :19:06.fewer than one in five voters. It compares with the 65 % in the
:19:06. > :19:13.general election. Joining me is Professor Marion Fitzgerald of, a
:19:13. > :19:19.former police officer as well who withdrew as a candidate for a
:19:19. > :19:27.Sussex -- who withdrew as a candidate and the father of a
:19:27. > :19:31.victim of crime. If at the start with you, you set up a charitable
:19:31. > :19:40.foundation in the aftermath of your son Robert's death. As a victim of
:19:40. > :19:48.crime, as someone who has been touched by crime, what you want
:19:48. > :19:52.these PCCs to achieve? campaigned against knife crime and
:19:52. > :19:58.anti-social behaviour. What we want the commissioner to do is stare up
:19:58. > :20:05.the effort to make the streets safer. -- is step up the effort.
:20:05. > :20:09.you think they can do that? I don't know. We have our wishes and I hope
:20:09. > :20:17.that the incoming commissioner will listen to what the people on the
:20:17. > :20:24.street say. Obviously, they have local knowledge and I hope they do
:20:24. > :20:30.what the public want. Nigel, you are a former police officer. How
:20:30. > :20:39.popular is this within the force? Not very. It is a very cynical
:20:39. > :20:46.profession anyway. Police officers have had quite a few years of
:20:46. > :20:51.centralised instruction, where everything they have done has been
:20:51. > :20:57.centrally controlled and monitored. I think a lot of them see this as
:20:57. > :21:05.an extension of that centralisation. It is just wearing a different hat.
:21:05. > :21:10.You did consider running as a candidate? I did. Do you think they
:21:10. > :21:13.could be effective? When the idea was first mooted in the
:21:13. > :21:19.Conservative manifesto of the last general election, I thought it was
:21:19. > :21:24.a good idea. As time went on, I became less enthused. That is an
:21:24. > :21:27.issue, Marion Fitzgerald, because these were trumpeted as making the
:21:27. > :21:34.police more accountable, more democratic. Do you think this
:21:34. > :21:37.process is a democratic process? I think it is being done in the
:21:37. > :21:42.name of democracy but it is not in the tradition of British democracy
:21:42. > :21:47.to give all power to one individual with no checks and balances on the
:21:48. > :21:53.power. This one individual will have the power to hire and fire
:21:53. > :21:58.chief constables. The worry is, they will be elected on a very
:21:58. > :22:03.small turnout. Across the whole of the force area, different people
:22:03. > :22:09.will be asking for very different things. Resources are scarce, and
:22:09. > :22:13.shrinking. If you decide that these resources have to be skewed towards
:22:13. > :22:19.this area to keep up your electoral base, resources will have to come
:22:19. > :22:23.from somewhere else. The danger is that they will be trying to meet
:22:23. > :22:27.the expectation of a higher police presence, or maintaining a police
:22:27. > :22:33.presence, dealing with low-level crime and anti-social behaviour,
:22:33. > :22:39.and if all that happens at the expense of some of the more serious
:22:39. > :22:42.police work, to meet that need, which is what the PCC will say if
:22:42. > :22:48.we are -- if he is going to be elected, then that will be a
:22:48. > :22:52.dangerous use of police resources. Thank you all for joining us. If
:22:52. > :22:57.you would like more information about the candidate for police
:22:57. > :23:05.commissioner in your candidate, you can go to the BBC's local website.
:23:05. > :23:12.They also be more information on the programme -- on BBC South-East
:23:12. > :23:16.today. There are 193 candidates standing
:23:16. > :23:21.and each has to issue a statement about what they want to achieve. I
:23:21. > :23:25.have got all of them here. Some of them mentioned the military
:23:25. > :23:29.background, some of them talk about their former role with the police
:23:29. > :23:33.authority. Here are the words they use most often, the work -- the
:23:33. > :23:42.bigger they are, the more often bigger they are, the more often
:23:43. > :23:48.they appear. Only 30 uses of the word alcohol. When 40 % of crime is
:23:48. > :23:51.fuelled by a cough. Is that the right emphasis? One phrase that is
:23:51. > :24:00.quite common is anti-social quite common is anti-social
:24:00. > :24:05.quite common is anti-social behaviour. That is the normal
:24:05. > :24:14.everyday nuisance behaviour. You suffered from that and you set up a
:24:15. > :24:20.CCTV camera? We will look at that footage now. Talk us through it.
:24:20. > :24:26.Targeting us repeatedly. We kept going to court. In the end, life
:24:26. > :24:32.became unbearable. I think that the big problem is that the police are
:24:32. > :24:38.not proactive any more. There are just reactive. So it a crime would
:24:38. > :24:43.happen, and they can't do that anymore. Do you think a police and
:24:43. > :24:47.crime commissioner would galvanise them? I think in principle it is a
:24:47. > :24:52.really good idea to have someone independent because the authorities
:24:52. > :24:58.do not react all the time. But I don't think they have enough power
:24:58. > :25:01.was. I think they need power to audit cases. Own -- as soon as a
:25:01. > :25:06.case has gone on for more than a year, they look at what has gone
:25:06. > :25:11.wrong with it. They start to look at what has gone wrong. It is not
:25:11. > :25:16.just about police and budgets, it is about understanding why things
:25:16. > :25:23.are ineffectual. Why are numerous crimes committed against people and
:25:23. > :25:32.the people are not caught? So are not enough power? Lord Wasserman,
:25:32. > :25:38.this is a curve ball for you. Not enough power, but there is enough
:25:39. > :25:42.flexibility for plough up -- for powers to evolve? I think their job
:25:43. > :25:45.is to identify policing needs and to deal with their police
:25:45. > :25:50.constables and voluntary organisations and victims are to
:25:50. > :25:56.meet these policing needs. I don't think they need power, I think they
:25:56. > :26:01.need leadership. I totally disagree. The whole problem is, when you
:26:02. > :26:07.start looking beneath the surface of what want of chief constable is
:26:07. > :26:11.saying, and what other people are saying to fob you off, you have to
:26:11. > :26:15.be able to look at the case management, who is doing what, why
:26:15. > :26:21.is the evidence collection not good enough, why you were having
:26:21. > :26:31.multiple crimes of in areas over and over again? Same people being
:26:31. > :26:33.
:26:33. > :26:38.targeted. But this. -- but this is democracy. A man or woman would say
:26:38. > :26:44.this is what I can do, and they would get elected. You can't get
:26:44. > :26:50.the same street targeted time after time, anyone who is any good will
:26:50. > :26:54.have a map on their wall saying where the crimes are. I have seen
:26:54. > :26:59.this and I know what is happening. He will come in and say to the
:26:59. > :27:07.Chief Constable and say, why have we got another burglary or robbery
:27:07. > :27:17.on this estate? But what of nobody votes? That is a different story
:27:17. > :27:17.
:27:17. > :27:22.from investigating a case. A former gang member -- gang member turned
:27:22. > :27:27.it around and is helping people. People affected by gangs are
:27:27. > :27:34.disproportionately do not live in the leafy areas who first in these
:27:34. > :27:40.elections. So are you going to be listened to? There you go, the
:27:41. > :27:46.danger is that how you are going -- the danger is how you are going to
:27:46. > :27:51.can make -- communicate with these people? No one will know who to go
:27:51. > :27:58.to. Will people stand up and say I'm going to help you people, or
:27:58. > :28:02.will they get areas from more obviously populist areas? I think
:28:02. > :28:06.it also to support within communities. They will want to help
:28:07. > :28:10.and if they don't know how to help or who to go to, then these to be
:28:10. > :28:14.somebody there who they can go to prove they can speak to on a
:28:14. > :28:19.regular basis to get these issue tackled. Do you think they could
:28:20. > :28:23.get tackled with the PCCs? Definitely. If they work with the
:28:23. > :28:28.young people and the communities, the more we come together as a
:28:28. > :28:32.collective, we will solve the problem. Thank you very much indeed
:28:32. > :28:37.that is just half-an-hour. You can see the size of the issues we are
:28:37. > :28:43.talking about. If you want to hear more from the candidates themselves,