:00:14. > :00:18.Everyone has but a few other streets should be policed. A
:00:18. > :00:22.crackdown on anti-social behaviour, but more policemen on the beat...
:00:22. > :00:29.Well, in just over one week, the way the police operate will change
:00:30. > :00:33.forever. That is when we elect a brand new police and crime
:00:33. > :00:37.Commissioner. Through that, we will get the chance to decide how the
:00:37. > :00:42.police deal with everything - under-age drinking, graffiti, right
:00:42. > :00:48.through to gun crime. Tonight, we will explain the idea, look at how
:00:48. > :00:58.it might work and discuss the issues that affect you. This is
:00:58. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:12.Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice. Who
:01:12. > :01:16.do we want to be our police and crime Commissioner? Who do we want
:01:16. > :01:23.to decide the strategy for how safe are streets are, to that after
:01:23. > :01:30.victims? Why should we go to the polls next week? The new police and
:01:30. > :01:34.crime commissioners really make a difference. And what effect will
:01:35. > :01:41.the changes have where you live? We will be looking at what these
:01:41. > :01:44.police elections mean for all of us. And in the North West, five forces,
:01:44. > :01:48.18,000 officers and budgets totalling more than �1.6 billion.
:01:48. > :01:56.We will be asking our panel of experts what impact the
:01:56. > :02:00.commissioners will have on policing in the next 30 minutes, we are
:02:00. > :02:05.going to be looking at what difference these new police
:02:05. > :02:11.commissioners are going to make. Later, we will be asking, are the
:02:11. > :02:20.crop of candidates out there going in the right direction? Guests
:02:20. > :02:24.tonight include Ceri Chakrabarty, add the man who helps designed the
:02:24. > :02:27.plan, but what will these police commissioners actually be? They
:02:27. > :02:32.will be able to hire and fiery Chief Constable, deliver a five-
:02:32. > :02:36.year policing crime plan and come up but the budget and regularly
:02:36. > :02:40.consult us on the way they police the streets and they might also be
:02:40. > :02:46.able to extend their influence into how justice is administered through
:02:46. > :02:50.the courts as well. These characters will be managing multi-
:02:50. > :02:54.million-pound organisations and developing a plan that covers
:02:54. > :02:58.population's of millions all within one police force area. It is a huge
:02:58. > :03:04.task. Our reporter has been trying to find out just what the job is
:03:04. > :03:09.all about. The police have to manage all types
:03:09. > :03:13.of crime, whether that is violent crime in the City for anti-social
:03:13. > :03:16.behaviour in the countryside. The Government's advertising campaign
:03:16. > :03:21.is hard hitting, but the new police and crime commissioner will have to
:03:21. > :03:26.tap into people's everyday concerns. Of the gangs that hang around,
:03:26. > :03:32.especially in the park. The police do not like speed tests. The use it
:03:32. > :03:36.like a motorway. More police. crime Commissioner's job is to
:03:36. > :03:40.listen to the public and in the run-up to elections, the candidates
:03:40. > :03:47.are out making no promises to win votes. Once an officer, they may
:03:47. > :03:53.discover just how complex policing is with conflicting demands. Here
:03:53. > :03:57.in Middlesbrough, anti-social behaviour takes up most police time.
:03:57. > :04:03.This man has suffered 10 years of abuse, including two petrol bomb
:04:03. > :04:07.attacks on his home. He knows exactly what he wants from the new
:04:07. > :04:12.police and Crown Commissioners. They need to sort the estates out.
:04:12. > :04:15.More police on the streets. Without that, people will just offer more.
:04:15. > :04:19.We need to target the people you causing the trouble within the
:04:19. > :04:23.communities. Police on the beat me reassure people their communities
:04:23. > :04:29.are safe, but deploying them everywhere all the time is
:04:29. > :04:33.impossible. Different crimes needs different policing. Take North
:04:33. > :04:38.Yorkshire, were crime is relatively low. Bobbies on the Peter not
:04:38. > :04:41.exactly a priority, but recently, the village Post Office had its
:04:41. > :04:46.cast machine stolen. People round here still want their fair share of
:04:47. > :04:51.policing. Two doors down, this woman's property has been broken
:04:51. > :04:58.into twice. She is concerned that rural areas will be overlooked by
:04:58. > :05:01.in the police and crime Commissioner. My concern is that
:05:01. > :05:05.the police commissioner might well think that petty crime, as it is
:05:05. > :05:11.labelled, does not matter, but it does matter to people, especially
:05:11. > :05:15.in rural areas. If somebody takes your trailer or your bike, or they
:05:15. > :05:23.break into your sheds, then it does affect those people. We pay our
:05:23. > :05:26.taxes, too, and we matter. So, it is up to the crime Commissioner to
:05:26. > :05:30.listen and deliver policing relevant to you and do it with
:05:30. > :05:35.limited resources. But that is that the only challenge. There is the
:05:35. > :05:38.tricky issue of personalities. The new crime Commissioner will set the
:05:39. > :05:44.priorities for a Chief Constable. How will they get on? And can they
:05:44. > :05:48.agree on how to achieve what the public wants to see? That is a
:05:48. > :05:52.reduction in crime. Keith Halliwell is a former Chief Constable and he
:05:52. > :05:56.knows how tough that job is. He thinks the job of the new police
:05:56. > :06:00.and crime Commissioner will be even harder. For it is enormously
:06:00. > :06:03.challenging. The individual will need to understand the police
:06:03. > :06:07.service. They will need to have a lot of political knowledge. They
:06:08. > :06:11.will need to know how to run an enormous organisation and they will
:06:11. > :06:16.need to have the confidence of the public and the media. It is
:06:16. > :06:23.virtually an impossible task. Strong words there. A virtually
:06:23. > :06:28.impossible. -- a virtually impossible task for any individual.
:06:28. > :06:33.That is not right. He is talking about managing the police force.
:06:33. > :06:37.But the Chief Constable will manage the police force. His role will be
:06:37. > :06:40.political leadership. He will look at decisions about priorities,
:06:40. > :06:44.identify policing needs, but he will not be managing the force on a
:06:44. > :06:51.day-to-day basis. There is a management team, a Chief Constable,
:06:51. > :06:55.assistance. They are paid and trained for that. There was a lot
:06:55. > :06:59.on about changing police operations at the beginning of this programme.
:06:59. > :07:03.This will not affect police operations, except if the Chief
:07:03. > :07:07.Constable wants them to change. It is about priorities. It is about
:07:07. > :07:11.focusing on people's needs, identifying those needs and making
:07:11. > :07:15.sure that it Chief Constable meets them.
:07:15. > :07:19.It is simply power to another elected politician. We have seen
:07:19. > :07:26.too much political interference in policing and law and order in
:07:26. > :07:32.recent years. Democracy is not just about having elections. An elected
:07:32. > :07:35.politician is not the only person with authority in a democracy. You
:07:35. > :07:40.must have the rule of law. Of course, politicians set the laws
:07:40. > :07:44.and decide what the police powers are, but you then need independent
:07:44. > :07:49.professionals to serve the whole community, whether they voter not.
:07:49. > :07:59.For young, old, minorities, as well as popular majorities. I am worried
:07:59. > :08:00.
:08:00. > :08:04.that this charismatic local politician will... I am worried
:08:04. > :08:08.that this politician is going to be looking at at the headlines and the
:08:08. > :08:15.popular causes, and not serving the tough needs of the entire community,
:08:15. > :08:20.no matter how vulnerable they are. I do not agree. I think Members of
:08:20. > :08:24.Parliament serve the whole of their communities when they are elected.
:08:24. > :08:28.The mayor serve the whole of the community of London. We do not need
:08:28. > :08:32.to worry about SVRs these commissioners neglecting bits of
:08:32. > :08:36.their communities. But the public want the law to be administered
:08:36. > :08:40.with an even hand. If they do not want the judges or the police
:08:40. > :08:44.chiefs to be elected. If we polled the public last year about whether
:08:44. > :08:51.they wanted this new system or whether they preferred the existing
:08:51. > :08:53.system with the Chief Constable and a proper police authority. 65% of
:08:53. > :09:00.the people we polled said they would rather stick with the status
:09:00. > :09:02.quo. Only 15% thought that they would trust elected politician over
:09:02. > :09:06.the Chief Constable under the existing system.
:09:06. > :09:09.You're on the record as saying there may well be a very low
:09:09. > :09:15.turnout and you accept that. You also said that people do not yet
:09:15. > :09:19.understand the concept of this role in one individual's hands. It is
:09:19. > :09:23.the elections after this one that will be really significant,
:09:23. > :09:28.according to you. What will the next four years be?
:09:28. > :09:31.It will be a period when of the commissioners begin to make a
:09:31. > :09:35.difference in their communities and members of those communities begin
:09:35. > :09:40.to realise that this Commissioner is someone who can make a
:09:40. > :09:44.difference to their lives. Suddenly, you will find that, whereas now,
:09:44. > :09:49.people have never heard of the PCC's, they regards crime as
:09:49. > :09:52.something that is done to them, not something they can control. If he
:09:52. > :09:57.will not a fear in operational policing, what will this
:09:57. > :10:02.transformation be? You cannot have it both ways. I believe in
:10:02. > :10:06.inspirational leadership. I believe the commissioners can get a more
:10:06. > :10:10.effective police force by inspiring and leading and supporting the
:10:10. > :10:13.Chief Constable. I do not see this as a conflict between their...
:10:14. > :10:19.Let's talk about the practical and one of the biggest police cover-ups
:10:19. > :10:24.in criminal history - Hillsborough. Jenny, you lost your two lovely
:10:24. > :10:29.girls at Hillsborough. You and your husband are campaigners. If you had
:10:29. > :10:34.a police and crime Commissioner there was which you have felt
:10:34. > :10:40.voiceless for quite so long? The current system has not worked
:10:40. > :10:45.for us. Some of the decisions that the local police authorities are
:10:45. > :10:49.not making have not worked for us, like certain people should have
:10:49. > :10:53.been suspended because of allegations about them. This just
:10:53. > :10:58.did not happen. Do you think a police and crime Commission,
:10:58. > :11:02.because he is answerable to people, that that would have been a better
:11:02. > :11:06.situation for you? I would hope so. I would hope there
:11:06. > :11:12.would be more transparency, that there would be more accountability
:11:13. > :11:17.from them because they are elected. As a former top policeman, more
:11:17. > :11:22.transparency? More accountability? Is this a real possibility?
:11:22. > :11:27.Is it depends. Politicians are not unknown for deciding not to open up
:11:27. > :11:30.and be transparent just before an election. You would have to have
:11:30. > :11:36.other leaders to resolve the situation that revolves around
:11:36. > :11:40.Hillsborough. There are one or two facets of the new law. Police
:11:40. > :11:43.authorities, for all their floors, to at least meet an open public
:11:43. > :11:48.meetings. Not with the huge audience present, because they're
:11:48. > :11:51.not widely interested. But it is at least the public meeting. Most of
:11:51. > :11:56.the decisions taken between a chief and the commissioner will be taken
:11:56. > :12:00.in a room with a cup of coffee on their own. Some of that decision
:12:00. > :12:03.making in public might go. There is a really big onus on the
:12:03. > :12:08.individuals that take on this role to make sure that the public
:12:08. > :12:12.transparently see if the decisions that are being taken.
:12:13. > :12:17.You could get some horrendous personality clashes as well.
:12:17. > :12:23.That is a distinct possibility. But most chiefs will want to make that
:12:23. > :12:29.relationship work. That will be unlikely to happen.
:12:29. > :12:34.I can hear what you're saying. I did not realise that it's would not
:12:34. > :12:40.be an open forum. That is quite worrying. That is not good for
:12:40. > :12:44.transparency, is it? But I come back to the accountability and
:12:44. > :12:47.being elected by the public. I agree that there should be
:12:47. > :12:50.accountability and what happened with will spray is one of the
:12:50. > :12:55.greatest policing scandals of my lifetime, but the police should
:12:55. > :12:59.have been accountable to the law. We have had generations of elected
:12:59. > :13:04.politicians... But this was people power that
:13:04. > :13:11.forced to insure. But there were generations of
:13:11. > :13:14.elected politicians... They did not deal with the situation.
:13:14. > :13:19.Are you concerned that the police and crime Commission or may not
:13:19. > :13:23.share your liberal agenda? Not at all. This is a
:13:23. > :13:27.constitutional point I am making. It is not about agendas. He needs
:13:27. > :13:32.checks and balances in a democracy. You need independent people as well
:13:32. > :13:37.as political people. I was no more have an elected judge... If you
:13:37. > :13:41.have an elected judge, Barabbas always walks free. His you put
:13:41. > :13:44.policing in their hands of elected politicians, they do not serve the
:13:44. > :13:53.whole community, just the most popular bets.
:13:53. > :13:59.I see it completely different teas. This is a job which relates, which
:13:59. > :14:05.concerns the allocation of scarce resources. Policing these are
:14:05. > :14:11.finite. Somebody has to make that decision. As it is Chief Constable?
:14:11. > :14:15.Or is it a free be elected PCC, who has to defend his actions at the
:14:15. > :14:20.polls and every day? Dirt media will ensure that this is
:14:20. > :14:26.transparent. The thank you. Later, we're going to be looking at
:14:26. > :14:29.what the candidates themselves have to say. What their priorities are.
:14:29. > :14:37.These commissioners are going to have a future effect on where you
:14:37. > :14:40.live. -- a big effect. Hello. Welcome to the Museum of Policing
:14:40. > :14:46.here in Cheshire. Behind these doors, 152 years of this county's
:14:46. > :14:49.constabulary. But we're not here to talk about history. We are here to
:14:49. > :14:55.talk about the future and how, with your help, the government is hoping
:14:55. > :15:05.to transport our five police forces into the 21st century. Let's do a
:15:05. > :15:13.
:15:13. > :15:21.There is evidence everywhere at how local policing has changed over the
:15:21. > :15:26.years. Peter it is beautifully demonstrating how the police
:15:26. > :15:36.force's fashion sense has changed over the years as well! Next week,
:15:36. > :15:36.
:15:36. > :15:38.we get to play a major role in policing. Here in the North West,
:15:39. > :15:40.we've got elections for five commissioners - in Cheshire,
:15:41. > :15:43.Greater Manchester, Merseyside, Lancashire and Cumbria. That's five
:15:43. > :15:48.forces with more than 18,000 officers and budgets ranging from
:15:48. > :15:51.�127 million in Cumbria to more than half a billion in Manchester!
:15:51. > :15:56.And the person you elect will try to ensure the money's spent wisely
:15:56. > :15:59.and in line with your wishes. Here's Arif Ansari.
:15:59. > :16:04.For 16 years, Z Cars patrolled the region's streets and the nation's
:16:04. > :16:07.TV screens. Well, we hired our own police car to go on election patrol
:16:07. > :16:16.and listen to voters. Cheshire reflected much of the region -
:16:16. > :16:23.concern about fewer police officers on the beat. Quite a lot of anti-
:16:23. > :16:27.social behaviour within this area. However, the police are there when
:16:27. > :16:31.you need them. The caller the Thin Blue Line - getting thinner all the
:16:31. > :16:33.time. But it's not always so straightforward. In Lancashire, we
:16:33. > :16:40.found one community might have very different priorities to another.
:16:40. > :16:50.You hear about these kids taken away. Teenagers, after hours. They
:16:50. > :16:59.go around the areas. You see them smoking drugs and stuff.
:16:59. > :17:04.different is it 20 miles away? level of policing is adequate.
:17:04. > :17:06.don't think we have any particular problems here. And it's Cumbria
:17:06. > :17:14.which might face the starkest choice between the towns and the
:17:14. > :17:21.countryside. Machinery, thieving, it is a big thing. We do not have
:17:21. > :17:24.the local policeman. When they come, they don't know where they are.
:17:24. > :17:26.Very different in our largest force - Greater Manchester. Despite the
:17:26. > :17:34.headlines, gun crime has been substantially reduced. But people
:17:34. > :17:43.in Salford are still worried. seems to be getting the thing now.
:17:43. > :17:48.I don't know how they. It, I would like them to. I need my liberty to
:17:48. > :17:50.be secured. I do not think the police have been hard enough.
:17:50. > :17:57.Merseyside Police has already cut its dedicated anti-social behaviour
:17:57. > :18:03.unit. A move voters in South Liverpool may want reversed.
:18:03. > :18:08.have had bus stops vandalised, the information. Has been vandalised.
:18:08. > :18:11.The police does not have enough to cover. Not their fault, it is the
:18:11. > :18:14.cutbacks. Different areas, different priorities. But pressure
:18:14. > :18:17.over results and resources will face all the new Police
:18:17. > :18:19.Commissioners. Well, joining me now to discuss the
:18:19. > :18:22.election are former Detective Superintendent Mick Gradwell, who
:18:22. > :18:24.led the Lancashire Police inquiry into the Morecambe Bay cockling
:18:24. > :18:27.tragedy, Penny Clough, whose daughter Jane was tragically killed
:18:27. > :18:37.by her former partner while on bail, and Dr Robert Ford from Manchester
:18:37. > :18:46.
:18:46. > :18:51.If this job had been advertised, what would you have liked to see on
:18:51. > :18:56.the job description? It is a chief executive post, someone who will
:18:56. > :19:02.have to manage a multi-million- pound budget and contracts, and has
:19:02. > :19:07.to deal with every single community. It is a chief executive poster with
:19:07. > :19:12.quite a significant number of staff. As we saw in that report, some of
:19:12. > :19:18.these areas are very rural. Is it very difficult for one person to
:19:18. > :19:26.cover a very diverse area? Impossible! Many candidates know
:19:26. > :19:31.just one area. They are so many communities, that it is not
:19:31. > :19:37.possible for one person to cover all these areas. Penny, in your own
:19:37. > :19:42.experience, what do you think of victims of crime will want to see?
:19:42. > :19:50.I think victims will want a commissioner who will answer their
:19:50. > :19:54.questions. If they cannot, tell them who can. Get a low-down on
:19:54. > :19:59.what it is like to be a victim and get advice of victims on how things
:19:59. > :20:02.and the police can be improved to. I know you did not have any
:20:02. > :20:09.complaints with the police, but you did with the justice system as a
:20:09. > :20:13.whole. Do you think there needs to be an overhaul? I would not have
:20:13. > :20:18.said and the police force, because we found that the police did
:20:18. > :20:25.everything they said they did, and we have no specific complaint
:20:25. > :20:32.against the police. Why is that politicians who are doing this? Is
:20:32. > :20:36.should be the person best for the role. Rob, this is a chance for
:20:36. > :20:43.somebody at the top to really do find this role. And really listen
:20:43. > :20:47.to victims. I think it is a challenging situation for the
:20:47. > :20:57.candidates. There is an opportunity here because the public do not
:20:57. > :20:58.
:20:58. > :21:03.understand what this role as for. On the other hand, many of the mud
:21:03. > :21:06.politicians, and right now, they are held in lower public esteem. If
:21:06. > :21:11.there are clashes between commissioners and police, the
:21:11. > :21:15.public would trust the police more than the elected commissioners.
:21:15. > :21:22.have had a lot of talk about how the public do not know much about
:21:22. > :21:32.these elections and turnout could be low. There is one estimate that
:21:32. > :21:38.suggests turnout could be below 20%. There are a couple of problems - it
:21:38. > :21:43.is very hard for someone to claim legitimacy when four out of five
:21:43. > :21:49.voters did not even turn up to vote. With voters knowing so little, it
:21:49. > :21:54.is likely that the votes the cumin or be dominated by a people every
:21:54. > :21:57.partisan leaning. We air of the police force, and things have to
:21:57. > :22:03.change and develop a. This is the way the Government thinks is the
:22:03. > :22:08.best way for the police force to develop. They are politicising the
:22:08. > :22:13.police force. They are bringing an X Factor culture into policing.
:22:13. > :22:18.they don't do the right thing, they were not get elected again, and
:22:18. > :22:24.made tried harder to listen to victims. I don't think they will.
:22:24. > :22:29.It is not as easy to pick one cried for a whole force area. Different
:22:29. > :22:33.areas have different problems. It will have little or no impact on
:22:33. > :22:37.members of the public, will not reduce crime, and disrupt community
:22:37. > :22:43.tension. If there is one thing a commissioner could do to help
:22:43. > :22:48.victims of crime, what would it be? Listened to victims's questions
:22:48. > :22:51.unanswered them. That's it from us here in the North
:22:51. > :22:57.West. A reminder that your local radio stations will have debates
:22:57. > :23:07.with the candidates in your area tomorrow at 9am. For now, back to
:23:07. > :23:11.
:23:11. > :23:15.There are 193 candidates standing in these elections, and each has to
:23:15. > :23:20.produce a statement about what they want to achieve. I have all of them
:23:20. > :23:25.here. Some mention their military background, some of their phone
:23:25. > :23:35.were role with the police authority. Here are the words they use most
:23:35. > :23:42.
:23:42. > :23:48.60 references to drugs, but only 30 uses of the word alcohol. He is
:23:48. > :23:53.that the)? One phrase that is quite common is anti-social behaviour.
:23:53. > :24:00.Now, of course, is the every day low real level nuisance crimes so
:24:00. > :24:06.many of us suffer from. You suffered terribly from it. You even
:24:06. > :24:16.got to the stage where you set up a CCTV camera in your house. Talk us
:24:16. > :24:18.
:24:18. > :24:24.through it. They are uncontrollable. We kept going to court. In the end,
:24:24. > :24:30.life became unbearable. The big problem is the police seemed to
:24:30. > :24:36.be... They are not proactive. They are just reactive. A crime would
:24:36. > :24:44.happen, and they cannot do that any more. But unelected commissioners
:24:44. > :24:48.would galvanise them. In principle, it is a great idea. The authorities
:24:48. > :24:54.to mark their own homework will the time. But I do not think they have
:24:55. > :24:59.enough powers. They need more powers to alter cases. As soon as
:24:59. > :25:03.the case has gone on for a year, Villa could case management. They
:25:03. > :25:10.start to get other people to look at what is going on. This is not
:25:10. > :25:13.about police and budgets. It is try to understand what has gone wrong.
:25:14. > :25:23.Why I numerous crimes committed against people and these people are
:25:24. > :25:28.
:25:29. > :25:36.not Co-ord? Not enough power. More power? A bit of legroom for more
:25:36. > :25:42.powers to revolve? I think their job is to identify a policing needs
:25:42. > :25:47.and to deal with their chief constables and the voluntary
:25:47. > :25:54.organisations, to meet these needs. They do not need power. They need
:25:54. > :26:01.leadership. I totally disagree. When you start getting beneath the
:26:01. > :26:06.surface, you need to get to the very basics of why that case is
:26:06. > :26:12.such a problem. They need to going and look at the case management,
:26:12. > :26:21.who is doing what, why the evidence collection is not good enough.
:26:22. > :26:28.Where you having multiple crimes in areas, over and over again? What
:26:28. > :26:36.the guy or a woman would go on and say, I would do this for you and
:26:36. > :26:44.would get selected. You cannot have the same street targeted time after
:26:44. > :26:49.time. Anyone who is any good will have a map on his wall all her wall,
:26:50. > :26:59.and know where the crimes are. I know what happens. They will say,
:27:00. > :27:02.
:27:02. > :27:11.why have we got another burglary or robbery on this estate? Quite a
:27:11. > :27:19.different story from investigating a case. You are a former gang
:27:19. > :27:25.member, and turned it round. People in gangs, people affected by gangs
:27:25. > :27:34.are disproportionately, live... Do not live in the leafy areas of
:27:34. > :27:43.these elections. Will you be listened to? There you go. How were
:27:43. > :27:46.you communicate with these people? They cannot just be a one-off thing.
:27:46. > :27:56.Do you think somebody standing was stand up and say, I will help you
:27:56. > :27:59.people? What it comes down to is if there is support within the
:28:00. > :28:04.communities, the communities will want to help and change their
:28:04. > :28:10.communities. But if they do not know how to do that, then he's to
:28:10. > :28:17.be someone there who they can speak to on a regular basis. Do you think
:28:17. > :28:20.they could get tackled? definitely. There needs to be more
:28:20. > :28:28.communication. The more we come together, the more we will solve
:28:28. > :28:32.the problem. Already, you can see the size of some of the issues we