:00:14. > :00:21.Everyone has a view on how the streets it should be policed.
:00:21. > :00:28.Cracking down on anti-social behaviour. More bobbies on the beat.
:00:28. > :00:31.Soon, at the way that the police operate will change for ever. That
:00:31. > :00:37.is when we are let brand-new police and Crown Commissioners. Through
:00:37. > :00:44.them, we will get the chance to decide how that the police deal
:00:44. > :00:48.with everything. Tonight, we are going to explain the idea, look at
:00:48. > :00:58.how it might work and discuss the issues that affect you. This is
:00:58. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:15.Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice, who
:01:15. > :01:19.do we want to be a police and crime Commissioner? Who do we want to
:01:19. > :01:27.decide the strategy for say streets, to look after victims? Why should
:01:27. > :01:32.be cut to the polls next week? The new police and Crown Commissioners
:01:32. > :01:35.really make a difference. And what effect will the changes have agreed
:01:35. > :01:40.you love? Tonight, we will be looking at what these elections
:01:40. > :01:44.means for all of us. Here in the South East, or we will
:01:44. > :01:48.be looking at the crimes that you are most concerned about. We will
:01:48. > :01:58.be asking what issues you would like them to address and I will be
:01:58. > :01:59.
:01:59. > :02:02.finding out what their powers and So, in the next have a work we are
:02:02. > :02:06.going to be looking at what difference these new police
:02:06. > :02:13.commissioners are going to make. Later in the programme, we will be
:02:13. > :02:20.asking Aga candidates going in the right direction? I guess there
:02:20. > :02:25.might include people who think it is a terrible idea and the man who
:02:25. > :02:29.helped to design the plan. What all these police commissioner has been
:02:29. > :02:33.responsible for? They will be able to hire and fire at Chief Constable.
:02:33. > :02:37.They will have to deliver a five- year policing plan and come up with
:02:37. > :02:42.a budget. And they will have to regularly consult the public on how
:02:42. > :02:46.the police the streets. They may also be able to extend their
:02:46. > :02:51.influence to how justice is administered through the courts.
:02:51. > :02:56.These characters will be the managing multi-million-pound
:02:56. > :03:06.organisations and developing a plan that includes a huge populations.
:03:06. > :03:09.
:03:09. > :03:13.The police have to manage all types of crime, whether that is violent
:03:13. > :03:17.crime or anti-social behaviour in the countryside. The Government's
:03:17. > :03:21.advertising campaign is hard hitting, but the new police and
:03:21. > :03:27.crime commissioner will have to tap into people's everyday concerns.
:03:27. > :03:34.The gangs that hang around, especially in the park. The need to
:03:34. > :03:38.do more speed tests. The crime Commissioner's job is to listen to
:03:38. > :03:42.the public and in the run-up to the elections the candidates are out
:03:42. > :03:49.making their policies to win votes. But once in office, they may
:03:49. > :03:53.discover just how complex policing errors, with conflicting demands.
:03:53. > :03:58.Here in Middlesbrough, anti-social behaviour takes up most police
:03:59. > :04:02.crime falls -- time. This man has suffered ten years of abuse,
:04:02. > :04:08.including two petrol bomb attacks on his home. He knows exactly what
:04:08. > :04:14.he wants from the new police and Crown Commissioners. More police on
:04:14. > :04:18.the beat, because without that people are going to suffer more.
:04:18. > :04:21.The need to target the people causing trouble within communities.
:04:21. > :04:25.Police on the beat may have reassure people their communities
:04:26. > :04:31.are safe, but deploying them everywhere, all the time, is
:04:31. > :04:35.impossible. Different crimes need to different policing. Take this
:04:35. > :04:39.small area in North Yorkshire for a crime is relatively low. Bobbies on
:04:39. > :04:43.the beat are not a priority. But recently the village post office
:04:43. > :04:48.had its cash machines stolen so people round here still want their
:04:48. > :04:53.feared -- their fair share of belief in. This property has been
:04:53. > :04:59.broken into twice. The owner is concerned that rural areas there
:04:59. > :05:04.will be overlooked by the new police and Crown Commissioners.
:05:04. > :05:08.concern is that they might think that petty crime, as it is labelled,
:05:08. > :05:14.up does not matter, but it does matter to people, especially in
:05:14. > :05:18.rural areas. If someone takes your trailer or you bright -- bike or
:05:18. > :05:23.the break and you shed its, then it does affect those people and we pay
:05:23. > :05:27.our taxes as well and the matter. So it is up to the crime
:05:27. > :05:32.Commissioner to listen and deliver policing relevant to you, and to do
:05:32. > :05:38.it with limited resources. But that is not the only challenge. There is
:05:38. > :05:42.the tricky issue of personalities. They will set the priorities for a
:05:42. > :05:48.chief constable. How will they get on and can they agree on how to
:05:48. > :05:52.achieve what the public wants to see? A reduction in crime. Keith
:05:52. > :05:55.Halliwell is a former chief constable and a nose out of that
:05:55. > :05:59.job is. But he thinks that the job of the new police and Crown
:05:59. > :06:03.commissioner will be even harder. It is enormously challenging
:06:03. > :06:07.because the individual will need to understand the police service. They
:06:07. > :06:15.will have to have a lot of political nous and know how to run
:06:15. > :06:18.an enormous organisations. It is a virtually impossible tax -- task
:06:18. > :06:24.for any individual. If strong words there.
:06:24. > :06:29.Virtually impossible task for any what one individual. I do not think
:06:29. > :06:35.that is right. He is talking about managing the chief force. The chief
:06:35. > :06:40.constable will manage the due for - - the police force. We're talking
:06:40. > :06:46.about a political leader talking about priorities and police needs.
:06:46. > :06:55.But he is not going to be managing the force on a day-to-day basis.
:06:55. > :07:01.There are other people trained for that and paid for that. This is not
:07:01. > :07:06.about changing police operations. Except if the Chief Constable wants
:07:06. > :07:09.them to change. It is about priorities. It is about focusing on
:07:09. > :07:15.people's needs, identifying those needs and making sure that the
:07:15. > :07:19.Chief Constable meets them. To his power to the people. It is not, it
:07:19. > :07:25.has power to another elected politician and I think we have seen
:07:25. > :07:30.too much interference in policing recently. Democracy is not just
:07:30. > :07:35.about having elections. Elected politicians are not the only people
:07:35. > :07:41.with authority in a democracy. You also have to have looked role of
:07:41. > :07:45.loss. Of course pop -- of course politicians set a loss, but then
:07:45. > :07:50.you need independent professionals who served the whole community,
:07:50. > :07:58.whether they vote are not, a young and old, minorities and majorities.
:07:58. > :08:04.I am worried that is a charismatic local politician, it rather than a
:08:04. > :08:07.police authority, I am worried that this politician is going to be
:08:07. > :08:11.looking for the headlines and the popular causes and not serving a
:08:11. > :08:18.bit tough needs of the entire community, no matter how vulnerable
:08:18. > :08:23.they are. I just do not agree. At the Members of Parliament serve
:08:23. > :08:29.their whole communities when they are elected. I think Meyer's serve
:08:29. > :08:33.the whole committee of London's. I do not think we need to worry about
:08:33. > :08:39.these people neglecting parts of the communities. But the public
:08:39. > :08:43.what the law to be administered with an even hand. People to the
:08:43. > :08:49.public last year about whether they wanted this new system or whether
:08:49. > :08:55.they preferred the existing system with chief constable and a broader
:08:55. > :09:00.police authority and 65 % of the people we polled said they would
:09:00. > :09:06.rather stick with the status quo. Only 15 % thought that they would
:09:06. > :09:10.trust the elected politician. were on the record as saying it may
:09:10. > :09:16.well be a poor turnout. But you have also said that people do not
:09:16. > :09:19.yet understand the concept of his role in one individual's hands. You
:09:19. > :09:23.were saying that it is the elections after this one that are
:09:23. > :09:29.going to be significant. What are the next four years going to be?
:09:29. > :09:32.Account of pilot? No, the next four years are going to be a period when
:09:32. > :09:35.they would begin to make a difference in their communities and
:09:35. > :09:40.members of the community begin to realise that this is someone that
:09:40. > :09:47.can make a difference to their lives. Suddenly, you will find,
:09:47. > :09:53.whereas now people have never heard of PCC's, at a record fine as
:09:53. > :09:57.something done to them,... Effort is not going to interfere in
:09:57. > :10:01.operational policing, of what is this great transformation he is
:10:01. > :10:06.going to make in people's lives? believe in inspirational leadership.
:10:06. > :10:10.I believe he can get a more effective police force by inspiring
:10:10. > :10:16.and reading and supporting the chief constable. I do not see this
:10:17. > :10:24.as a conflict... Let us talk about the practicals and the biggest
:10:24. > :10:28.police cover up in police history, the Hillsborough disaster. I just
:10:28. > :10:31.wonder if you had had a police and Crown Commissioner there who was
:10:31. > :10:36.answerable to good people like yourself, would you have felt a
:10:36. > :10:41.voiceless for so long? The current system does not seem to have worked
:10:41. > :10:46.for us. Some of the decisions that the local police authorities are
:10:46. > :10:52.not making have not worked for us. Certain people should have been
:10:52. > :10:58.suspended because of allegations about them and it did not happen.
:10:58. > :11:01.So you think that a police and crime commissioner, he or she...
:11:01. > :11:07.That would have been a better situation for you? I would have
:11:07. > :11:12.coped so, I would have called for more transparency. That there would
:11:12. > :11:17.have been more accountability because they were elected. You are
:11:17. > :11:22.former top policemen. More transparency and accountability? Is
:11:22. > :11:26.there is a possibility? I think it depends. Politicians are not
:11:27. > :11:34.unknown for deciding to open up and be transparent be fought an
:11:34. > :11:39.election so why do not think it is bad given that would happen. There
:11:39. > :11:43.are one or two facets of the new role, police authorities for all
:11:43. > :11:47.their flaws do at least open up meetings, not with a huge audience
:11:47. > :11:50.because they are not wildly interesting for memory it -- for
:11:51. > :11:55.many, but they are at least a public meeting. The majority of
:11:55. > :11:59.decisions taken between achieve and a crime and police commissioner are
:11:59. > :12:03.going to be taking over a cup of coffee in a room. Some of that
:12:03. > :12:06.public decision-making might go and there is a real onus on the
:12:06. > :12:10.individuals who take on this role for to make sure that the public
:12:10. > :12:15.transparently seek the decisions taken and are not just done in
:12:15. > :12:20.smoke-filled rooms. You could get horrendous personality clashes.
:12:20. > :12:30.that is a distinct possibility. Most chiefs will want to make that
:12:30. > :12:33.a relationship work. I can hear what you're saying. I did not
:12:33. > :12:39.realise that it would not be in an open forum that decisions would be
:12:39. > :12:42.made, so that is quite worrying. That is not good for transparency.
:12:42. > :12:46.However, I go back to the accountability of being elected by
:12:46. > :12:50.the public. I agree that there should be accountability and what
:12:50. > :12:54.happened with Hills brat is one of the greatest policing scandals of
:12:54. > :13:00.my lifetime. The police there should have been accountable to the
:13:00. > :13:06.law and I am not sure that... ultimately it was people power that
:13:06. > :13:13.forced to change here. Isn't this an expression... But generations of
:13:13. > :13:16.elected politicians... Had I just worry... Are you concerned that a
:13:16. > :13:21.police and Crown Commissioner it might just not sure you're a
:13:21. > :13:25.liberal agenda? Not at all. This is a constitutional point that I am
:13:25. > :13:30.making. It is not about an agenda. It is about saying that you need
:13:30. > :13:37.checks and balances in a democracy, you need independent people as well
:13:37. > :13:42.as political people. I would no more have an elected judge. I think
:13:42. > :13:44.if you could policing in hands of elected politicians they do not
:13:44. > :13:52.necessarily serve the whole community just the most popular
:13:52. > :13:57.bits. I see it completely differently. This is a job that
:13:57. > :14:02.relates to, at that concerns, the allocations of scarce resources. We
:14:03. > :14:08.have always known that that is a job for politicians. Police
:14:08. > :14:12.resources are limited. Someone has to make that decision. Is it a
:14:12. > :14:17.freely elected police and crime commissioner who has to defend his
:14:17. > :14:20.actions at the polls? Every day as well, the local media will ensure
:14:20. > :14:24.that this is transparent. Thank you very much.
:14:24. > :14:28.Later we are going to be looking at what the candidates themselves say
:14:28. > :14:38.they are going to do if they are elected. These commissioners are
:14:38. > :14:42.
:14:42. > :14:48.going to have a huge effect on Hello, welcome to the Chatham
:14:48. > :14:53.Historic Dockyard. In less than 10 days' time, voters in Sussex and
:14:53. > :14:59.Surrey will elect their new PCC's it in the biggest shake-up to
:14:59. > :15:04.policing since 1879. But what do you know about the elections? What
:15:04. > :15:08.issues would you like them to focus on? What are their powers and
:15:08. > :15:14.responsibilities? We will be discussing all of those with air --
:15:14. > :15:22.with an invited panel. But first, Our correspondent Colin Campbell
:15:22. > :15:29.has been seeing how the new PCCs will affect our lives.
:15:29. > :15:34.It is a US concept on the way to the South East. Police crime
:15:34. > :15:38.commissioners arrive here in a matter of days. The job of the PCCs
:15:38. > :15:42.will be to listen to the public and respond to their needs. But what
:15:42. > :15:46.issues will they have to address here in the South East? What
:15:46. > :15:54.difference will they make? Rural crime in the South East increased
:15:54. > :16:01.by 20 % last year. Thieves have struck five times at John Chapman's
:16:01. > :16:08.Farm near Ashford in Kent since Christmas. Breaking fences, driving
:16:08. > :16:12.through the crops. A what do you hope the PCC can do for you?
:16:12. > :16:19.presence in the area. Commissioners will control police budgets and set
:16:19. > :16:24.priorities. A bank robber turned government adviser believes the
:16:24. > :16:30.role will help drive down crime. Listen to people in the street.
:16:30. > :16:35.People know what money needs to be sent on. That will show what needs
:16:35. > :16:39.to be -- what will be most affected, rather than a police officer saying,
:16:39. > :16:45.what more cars on the street. The PCC might say you may want more
:16:45. > :16:53.cars, but the public want more visibility. Total recorded crime is
:16:53. > :16:57.down in Kent and Sussex. Across the two counties, there were 145,000
:16:57. > :17:01.reported incidence of anti-social behaviour in the last year. We get
:17:01. > :17:07.street drinkers from early in the morning to late at night. Is there
:17:07. > :17:14.a drugs problem here? There is in various areas. We have had two all
:17:14. > :17:19.three major hits. On this estate in Brighton, residents want police to
:17:19. > :17:23.contact -- target those who make other people's lives hell. I want
:17:23. > :17:28.more put into neighbourhood policing because that works here.
:17:28. > :17:34.With the officers we have, work very well, I would take that away
:17:34. > :17:42.from them, but then me to be more of them. Lucas pike is an X
:17:42. > :17:47.offender who lives on the Whitehall estate. He was assigned a mentor.
:17:47. > :17:53.hope the commissioners will take time to look at the project's -- a
:17:53. > :18:00.look at prevention as well as rehabilitation. Relations between a
:18:00. > :18:08.young people and the police, improving that is Lucas's hope.
:18:08. > :18:13.icy police, I am suspicious. -- When I see police. It is clear that
:18:13. > :18:20.across the South East, there are many hopes and expectations as to
:18:20. > :18:25.what BPCCs will achieve. The candidates are promising to hit
:18:25. > :18:29.the ground running when they take office. Top of their agenda will be
:18:29. > :18:36.tackling anti-social behaviour. Addressing issues like bobbies on
:18:36. > :18:41.the beat, robbery, burglary and domestic violence. So, how
:18:41. > :18:45.successful is the role likely to be? Supporters believe that it will
:18:45. > :18:50.make policing more accountable and democratic. But one high-profile
:18:50. > :18:55.critic has urged voters to boycott the election. The Electoral Reform
:18:55. > :19:01.Society has predicted that the turnout could be lower than 18.5 %,
:19:02. > :19:08.fewer than one in five voters. It compares with the 65 % in the
:19:08. > :19:14.general election. Joining me is Professor Marion Fitzgerald of, a
:19:14. > :19:21.former police officer as well who withdrew as a candidate for a
:19:21. > :19:28.Sussex -- who withdrew as a candidate and the father of a
:19:28. > :19:33.victim of crime. If at the start with you, you set up a charitable
:19:33. > :19:41.foundation in the aftermath of your son Robert's death. As a victim of
:19:41. > :19:49.crime, as someone who has been touched by crime, what you want
:19:49. > :19:53.these PCCs to achieve? campaigned against knife crime and
:19:53. > :19:59.anti-social behaviour. What we want the commissioner to do is stare up
:19:59. > :20:07.the effort to make the streets safer. -- is step up the effort.
:20:07. > :20:10.you think they can do that? I don't know. We have our wishes and I hope
:20:10. > :20:18.that the incoming commissioner will listen to what the people on the
:20:18. > :20:25.street say. Obviously, they have local knowledge and I hope they do
:20:25. > :20:31.what the public want. Nigel, you are a former police officer. How
:20:32. > :20:41.popular is this within the force? Not very. It is a very cynical
:20:41. > :20:47.profession anyway. Police officers have had quite a few years of
:20:47. > :20:53.centralised instruction, where everything they have done has been
:20:53. > :20:59.centrally controlled and monitored. I think a lot of them see this as
:20:59. > :21:06.an extension of that centralisation. It is just wearing a different hat.
:21:06. > :21:11.You did consider running as a candidate? I did. Do you think they
:21:11. > :21:15.could be effective? When the idea was first mooted in the
:21:15. > :21:20.Conservative manifesto of the last general election, I thought it was
:21:20. > :21:25.a good idea. As time went on, I became less enthused. That is an
:21:25. > :21:29.issue, Marion Fitzgerald, because these were trumpeted as making the
:21:29. > :21:35.police more accountable, more democratic. Do you think this
:21:35. > :21:38.process is a democratic process? I think it is being done in the
:21:38. > :21:43.name of democracy but it is not in the tradition of British democracy
:21:43. > :21:49.to give all power to one individual with no checks and balances on the
:21:49. > :21:55.power. This one individual will have the power to hire and fire
:21:55. > :21:59.chief constables. The worry is, they will be elected on a very
:21:59. > :22:05.small turnout. Across the whole of the force area, different people
:22:05. > :22:10.will be asking for very different things. Resources are scarce, and
:22:10. > :22:14.shrinking. If you decide that these resources have to be skewed towards
:22:15. > :22:20.this area to keep up your electoral base, resources will have to come
:22:20. > :22:24.from somewhere else. The danger is that they will be trying to meet
:22:24. > :22:29.the expectation of a higher police presence, or maintaining a police
:22:29. > :22:35.presence, dealing with low-level crime and anti-social behaviour,
:22:35. > :22:40.and if all that happens at the expense of some of the more serious
:22:40. > :22:44.police work, to meet that need, which is what the PCC will say if
:22:44. > :22:49.we are -- if he is going to be elected, then that will be a
:22:49. > :22:54.dangerous use of police resources. Thank you all for joining us. If
:22:54. > :22:59.you would like more information about the candidate for police
:22:59. > :23:06.commissioner in your candidate, you can go to the BBC's local website.
:23:06. > :23:14.They also be more information on the programme -- on BBC South-East
:23:14. > :23:18.today. There are 193 candidates standing
:23:18. > :23:22.and each has to issue a statement about what they want to achieve. I
:23:22. > :23:26.have got all of them here. Some of them mentioned the military
:23:26. > :23:31.background, some of them talk about their former role with the police
:23:31. > :23:34.authority. Here are the words they use most often, the work -- the
:23:34. > :23:44.bigger they are, the more often bigger they are, the more often
:23:44. > :23:49.they appear. Only 30 uses of the word alcohol. When 40 % of crime is
:23:49. > :23:53.fuelled by a cough. Is that the right emphasis? One phrase that is
:23:53. > :24:01.quite common is anti-social quite common is anti-social
:24:01. > :24:07.quite common is anti-social behaviour. That is the normal
:24:07. > :24:16.everyday nuisance behaviour. You suffered from that and you set up a
:24:16. > :24:22.CCTV camera? We will look at that footage now. Talk us through it.
:24:22. > :24:28.Targeting us repeatedly. We kept going to court. In the end, life
:24:28. > :24:34.became unbearable. I think that the big problem is that the police are
:24:34. > :24:40.not proactive any more. There are just reactive. So it a crime would
:24:40. > :24:45.happen, and they can't do that anymore. Do you think a police and
:24:45. > :24:49.crime commissioner would galvanise them? I think in principle it is a
:24:49. > :24:53.really good idea to have someone independent because the authorities
:24:53. > :24:59.do not react all the time. But I don't think they have enough power
:24:59. > :25:03.was. I think they need power to audit cases. Own -- as soon as a
:25:03. > :25:07.case has gone on for more than a year, they look at what has gone
:25:07. > :25:12.wrong with it. They start to look at what has gone wrong. It is not
:25:12. > :25:17.just about police and budgets, it is about understanding why things
:25:17. > :25:25.are ineffectual. Why are numerous crimes committed against people and
:25:25. > :25:34.the people are not caught? So are not enough power? Lord Wasserman,
:25:34. > :25:40.this is a curve ball for you. Not enough power, but there is enough
:25:40. > :25:44.flexibility for plough up -- for powers to evolve? I think their job
:25:44. > :25:46.is to identify policing needs and to deal with their police
:25:46. > :25:51.constables and voluntary organisations and victims are to
:25:51. > :25:58.meet these policing needs. I don't think they need power, I think they
:25:58. > :26:03.need leadership. I totally disagree. The whole problem is, when you
:26:03. > :26:08.start looking beneath the surface of what want of chief constable is
:26:08. > :26:12.saying, and what other people are saying to fob you off, you have to
:26:12. > :26:17.be able to look at the case management, who is doing what, why
:26:17. > :26:22.is the evidence collection not good enough, why you were having
:26:22. > :26:32.multiple crimes of in areas over and over again? Same people being
:26:32. > :26:34.
:26:34. > :26:40.targeted. But this. -- but this is democracy. A man or woman would say
:26:40. > :26:46.this is what I can do, and they would get elected. You can't get
:26:46. > :26:51.the same street targeted time after time, anyone who is any good will
:26:51. > :26:56.have a map on their wall saying where the crimes are. I have seen
:26:56. > :27:00.this and I know what is happening. He will come in and say to the
:27:00. > :27:08.Chief Constable and say, why have we got another burglary or robbery
:27:08. > :27:18.on this estate? But what of nobody votes? That is a different story
:27:18. > :27:19.
:27:19. > :27:24.from investigating a case. A former gang member -- gang member turned
:27:24. > :27:29.it around and is helping people. People affected by gangs are
:27:29. > :27:36.disproportionately do not live in the leafy areas who first in these
:27:36. > :27:42.elections. So are you going to be listened to? There you go, the
:27:42. > :27:47.danger is that how you are going -- the danger is how you are going to
:27:47. > :27:53.can make -- communicate with these people? No one will know who to go
:27:53. > :27:59.to. Will people stand up and say I'm going to help you people, or
:27:59. > :28:03.will they get areas from more obviously populist areas? I think
:28:03. > :28:08.it also to support within communities. They will want to help
:28:08. > :28:11.and if they don't know how to help or who to go to, then these to be
:28:11. > :28:15.somebody there who they can go to prove they can speak to on a
:28:15. > :28:21.regular basis to get these issue tackled. Do you think they could
:28:21. > :28:25.get tackled with the PCCs? Definitely. If they work with the
:28:25. > :28:29.young people and the communities, the more we come together as a
:28:29. > :28:34.collective, we will solve the problem. Thank you very much indeed
:28:34. > :28:38.that is just half-an-hour. You can see the size of the issues we are
:28:38. > :28:44.talking about. If you want to hear more from the candidates themselves,