:00:28. > :00:31.The way the police operate will change forever. That is when we
:00:31. > :00:34.elect brand-new police and crime Commissioners, and through them, we
:00:34. > :00:39.will have the chance to decide how the police deal with everything
:00:39. > :00:43.from under-aged drinking, graffiti, right through to gun crime. Tonight
:00:43. > :00:53.we are going to explain the idea, look at how it might work and
:00:53. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:12.Millions of us across England and Wales are being given a choice, who
:01:12. > :01:15.do we want to be our Police and Crime Commissioner? Who do we want
:01:15. > :01:20.to decide the strategy for house if our streets are, to look after
:01:21. > :01:26.victims? Why should we go to the polls next week on a cold November
:01:26. > :01:30.night in these elections? The new Police and Crime Commissioners,
:01:30. > :01:34.will they really make a difference? At what effect will the changes
:01:34. > :01:37.have where you live? Tonight, we will look at what these elections
:01:37. > :01:42.mean for all of us. In the West, we're talking drugs.
:01:42. > :01:45.Crack cocaine, heroin, mephedrone and cannabis. Drugs are responsible
:01:45. > :01:48.for a third of all crime, surely it's simple - stamp out the drugs
:01:48. > :01:58.and you stop the crime. How should Avon and Somerset's new PCC clean
:01:58. > :02:02.
:02:02. > :02:05.In the next half hour, we will look at what difference these new police
:02:05. > :02:08.commissioners are going to make. Later in the programme, we will be
:02:08. > :02:17.asking, are the crop of candidates out there going in the right
:02:17. > :02:21.direction? Guests tonight include Shami Chakrabarti, who thinks it is
:02:21. > :02:25.up to -- terrible idea. And the man who helped to design the plan. But
:02:25. > :02:35.what will these commissioners be responsible for? They will be able
:02:35. > :02:36.
:02:36. > :02:40.to hire and fire a chief constable. And they will have to consult us on
:02:40. > :02:45.the way the police the streets. They might also be able to extend
:02:45. > :02:50.their influence into had justice is administered through the courts.
:02:50. > :02:54.These characters will be managing multi-million-pound organisations.
:02:54. > :02:59.Developing a plan that covers population's of millions, all
:02:59. > :03:04.within one police force Iraq. It is a huge task. We have been tried to
:03:04. > :03:09.find out what the job is all about. -- one police force Syria.
:03:09. > :03:13.The police have to manage all types of crime, whether that is violent
:03:13. > :03:17.crime in the City or anti-social behaviour in the countryside. The
:03:18. > :03:21.Government's advertising campaign is hard hitting, but the new Police
:03:21. > :03:24.and Crime Commissioner will have to tap into people's everyday concerns.
:03:25. > :03:33.The gangs that hang around, especially in the park. The police
:03:33. > :03:36.do not like to speak to us. More police on the beat. The crime
:03:37. > :03:41.Commissioner's job is to listen to the public and in the run-up to the
:03:41. > :03:46.elections, the candidates are making their promises to win votes.
:03:46. > :03:50.Once in office, they may discover just how complex policing is, with
:03:50. > :03:59.conflicting demands. In Middlesbrough, anti-social
:03:59. > :04:02.behaviour takes up most police time. Ron has suffered ten years of abuse,
:04:02. > :04:07.including two petrol bomb attacks on his home. He knows exactly what
:04:07. > :04:11.he wants from the new Police and Crime Commissioner. They need to
:04:11. > :04:16.sort the estate out, more police on the beat. Without that, people are
:04:16. > :04:21.just going to suffer more. We need to target the people causing the
:04:21. > :04:24.trouble within the communities. Police on the beat me reassure
:04:24. > :04:32.people their communities are safe, but deploying them everywhere all
:04:32. > :04:35.the time is impossible. Different crimes need different policing. In
:04:35. > :04:38.North Yorkshire in The Stade, crime is relatively low. Bobbies on the
:04:38. > :04:42.beat are not a priority but recently, the village post office
:04:43. > :04:48.had its cash machine stolen. People round here still want their fair
:04:48. > :04:52.share of policing. Two doors down from the Post Office, Karen's
:04:52. > :04:56.property has been broken into twice. She is concerned that rural areas
:04:56. > :05:03.will be overlooked by the new Police and Crime Commissioner.
:05:03. > :05:07.concern is that the police commissioner might think that petty
:05:07. > :05:13.crime does not matter, but it does matter to people, especially in
:05:13. > :05:19.rural areas. If somebody takes you trailer or your bike or break into
:05:19. > :05:23.your shed, it does affect those people, and we pay our taxes, and
:05:24. > :05:28.we matter. So, it is up to the crime Commissioner to listen and
:05:28. > :05:32.deliver policing relevant to you, and do it with limited resources.
:05:32. > :05:36.But that is not the only challenge. There is the tricky issue of
:05:36. > :05:40.personalities. The new crime commissioner will set the
:05:40. > :05:45.priorities for a Chief Constable. How will take get on and can be
:05:45. > :05:52.agreed on how to achieve what the public wants to see? A reduction in
:05:52. > :05:55.crime. This former chief constable knows how tough that job is but he
:05:55. > :05:59.thinks the job of the new Police and Crime Commissioner will be even
:05:59. > :06:03.harder. It is enormously challenging because the individual
:06:03. > :06:07.will need to understand the police service. They will need to have a
:06:07. > :06:10.lot of political nous, it will need to know how to run an enormous
:06:11. > :06:14.organisation. It will be to have the confidence of the public and
:06:14. > :06:20.the media. It is a virtually impossible task for any individual
:06:20. > :06:25.to do that. Strong words there from Keith Hellawell. Virtually
:06:25. > :06:29.impossible for any one individual. I do not think that is right. He is
:06:29. > :06:33.talking about managing the police force. The chief constable will
:06:33. > :06:38.manage the police force. The PCC is not managing, he is a political
:06:38. > :06:42.leader, he will look at decisions, about priorities. He will try to
:06:42. > :06:46.identify policing needs. But he is not going to be managing the force
:06:46. > :06:53.on a day-to-day basis. There is a chief constable, assistance, they
:06:54. > :06:56.have been trained for that. That is their job. There was or what am
:06:56. > :07:01.beginning of the programme about changing police operations, this
:07:01. > :07:07.will not affect police operations, except if the Chief Constable wants
:07:08. > :07:13.them to change. It is a parrot priority. It is about focusing on
:07:13. > :07:17.needs. -- it is about priority. is power to the people? It is not,
:07:17. > :07:21.it is power to another elected politician. I think we have seen
:07:21. > :07:28.too much political interference in policing and in law and order in
:07:28. > :07:32.recent years. Democracy is not just about having elections, and elected
:07:32. > :07:37.politicians are not the only people with a parties in democracy. You
:07:37. > :07:42.also have to have the rule of law. Of course, politicians set the loss,
:07:42. > :07:44.the decide what police powers are and what crimes are. But you need
:07:44. > :07:51.independent professionals to serve the community, whether they vote or
:07:51. > :07:55.not. Young, all, minorities and majorities. I worry that his
:07:55. > :07:59.charismatic local politician, if that is who he is, and it will
:07:59. > :08:04.normally be heat rather than Police Authority, which is more diverse.
:08:04. > :08:07.There are very few female standing, relatively. I am worried this
:08:07. > :08:11.politician will be looking for the headlines and the popular causes,
:08:11. > :08:18.and not serving the tough needs of the entire community, no matter how
:08:18. > :08:23.vulnerable they are. I just do not agree. I think MPs serve the whole
:08:23. > :08:27.of the communities when they are elected. I think there may asserts
:08:27. > :08:32.the Hall of the community of London. I do not think we need to worry
:08:32. > :08:36.about PCC's neglecting bits of the communities. But the public want a
:08:36. > :08:40.lot to be administered with an even hand, they do not want judges to be
:08:40. > :08:43.elected or police chiefs to be elected. We pulled the public last
:08:43. > :08:49.year about whether they wanted this new system. Or whether they
:08:49. > :08:55.preferred the existing system, with a chief constable and a broader
:08:55. > :09:00.Police Authority. 65% of the people we polled said they would rather
:09:00. > :09:05.stick but the status quo. Only 15% pot they would trust elected
:09:05. > :09:09.politician over the chief constable under the existing system. When you
:09:09. > :09:14.say it may well be a low turnout and you accept that, you have also
:09:14. > :09:18.said people do not yet understand the concept of this role in one
:09:18. > :09:21.individual's hands, you say actually it is the elections after
:09:21. > :09:27.this one that are going to be really significant. What are the
:09:27. > :09:30.next four years good to be, a pilot? No, the next four years will
:09:30. > :09:34.be when the PCC's begin to make a difference in their communities.
:09:34. > :09:38.And members of those communities begin to realise that this PCC is
:09:39. > :09:46.someone who can make a difference to their lives. And suddenly, you
:09:46. > :09:50.will find, whereas now, people had never heard of the PCC, the
:09:50. > :09:53.rigorous something as crime done to them. But he is not going to
:09:53. > :09:58.interfere in operational policing. What is this great transformation
:09:58. > :10:03.he will do in the lives of people? I believe in inspirational
:10:03. > :10:08.leadership. I believe that if a PCC can get a more effective police
:10:08. > :10:15.force by inspiring and leading and supporting the chief constable. I
:10:15. > :10:20.do not see this as a conflict... Let's talk about the practical. One
:10:20. > :10:27.of the biggest police cover-ups, Hillsborough, Jenny, you lost your
:10:27. > :10:30.two lovely girls at Hillsborough. I just wonder if you had had a Police
:10:30. > :10:34.and Crime Commissioner there he was answerable to folks like yourself,
:10:34. > :10:39.would you have felt voiceless for quite so long? The current system
:10:39. > :10:45.does not seem to have worked for us. Some of the decisions that the
:10:45. > :10:48.local police authorities are not making have not worked for us.
:10:48. > :10:56.Certain people should have been suspended, because of allegations
:10:56. > :11:00.about them. They just that my -- that did not happen. So because he
:11:00. > :11:03.can get kicked out, he or she, that would have been a better situation
:11:04. > :11:08.for you? I would hope so. I would hope they would be more
:11:08. > :11:14.transparency. And there would be more accountability from them.
:11:14. > :11:18.Because they were elected. As a former top copper, more
:11:18. > :11:23.transparency, accountability, is this a real possibility? I think it
:11:23. > :11:27.depends. Politicians are not unknown for deciding not to open up
:11:27. > :11:30.and be transparent just before an election. But would not necessarily
:11:30. > :11:34.happen, you would have to have other leaders to resolve the type
:11:34. > :11:39.of situation that revolves around Hillsborough. There are one or two
:11:39. > :11:44.facets of the role, notably, police authorities for all the floors to
:11:44. > :11:47.at least meet in open, public meetings. Not with a huge audience
:11:47. > :11:51.because they are not wildly interesting for money. But they are
:11:51. > :11:55.at least a public meeting. Most decisions taken between a chief and
:11:55. > :12:00.a PCC you are going to be taken in a room with a cup of coffee, on
:12:00. > :12:04.their own. So some of that decision making in public might go. There is
:12:04. > :12:07.a really big bonus on the individuals to take on this will --
:12:07. > :12:11.who take on this role to make sure the public transparently see the
:12:11. > :12:14.decisions being taken and they are not just done in what used to be
:12:14. > :12:19.called smoke-filled rooms. We could also get personality clashes as
:12:19. > :12:25.well. That is a possibility. Most chiefs will want to make that
:12:25. > :12:31.relationship work, so I think that would be unlikely to happen. I can
:12:31. > :12:34.hear what you are saying. I did not realise that it would be an open
:12:35. > :12:41.forum where decisions were being made, so that is quite worrying.
:12:41. > :12:47.That is not good for transparency. A comeback to the accountability of
:12:47. > :12:50.being elected. I agree that there should be accountability, and what
:12:50. > :12:53.happened at Hillsborough is one of the greatest policing scandals of
:12:53. > :12:57.my lifetime. The police there should have been accountable to the
:12:57. > :13:02.law. I'm not sure... We have had generations of elected
:13:02. > :13:07.politicians... It was people power to force change here. Is this not
:13:08. > :13:13.an expression... Generations of elected politicians, Home Secretary
:13:13. > :13:16.and others, who did not deal with the situation. Are you concerned
:13:16. > :13:20.that the Police and Crime Commissioner may not share your
:13:21. > :13:25.liberal agenda? Not at all. This is a constitutional point. It is not
:13:25. > :13:29.about a liberal agenda. It is about saying that you need checks and
:13:29. > :13:33.balances in a democracy, we need independent people as well as
:13:33. > :13:38.political people. I would no more have an elected judge... If you
:13:38. > :13:41.have elected judges, by the way, Barra has always walks free. If you
:13:41. > :13:44.put policing in the hands of elected politicians, they do not
:13:44. > :13:53.necessarily serve the whole community, just the most popular
:13:53. > :13:56.bets. I see it differently. This is a job which relates or which
:13:56. > :14:01.concerns the allegation of scarce resources. We have always known
:14:01. > :14:05.that is a role for politicians. Policing needs are infinite and
:14:05. > :14:11.resources very limited. Someone has to make the decision. Is it the
:14:11. > :14:17.chief constable, or is it a freely elected PCC who has to defend his
:14:17. > :14:20.actions at the polls? And every day, the local media will ensure that
:14:20. > :14:25.this is transparent. And you all very much for now. Later, we will
:14:25. > :14:29.be looking at what the candidates themselves say they are going to do
:14:29. > :14:39.if they are elected. What their priorities are. These commissioners
:14:39. > :14:40.
:14:40. > :14:47.are going to have a huge effect on Welcome to Bridewell Police Station
:14:47. > :14:51.in the centre of Bristol. Today we are talking about drugs. Upstairs I
:14:51. > :14:56.have a panel of expert witnesses are and I will be cross-examining
:14:56. > :15:05.them shortly. Who is winning the war on drugs in the West? Visit the
:15:06. > :15:12.drugs barons or the drug squad? -- visit me.
:15:12. > :15:16.If police officers armed with semi- automatic machine guns. In 2003,
:15:16. > :15:22.the drugs war had escalated to the point that such patrols became
:15:22. > :15:30.routine. Since then, there have been high-profile court cases
:15:30. > :15:36.resulting in long cases for a violent and career criminals.
:15:36. > :15:42.stop the supply coming down to our states, that is where we what to be.
:15:42. > :15:46.-- Stakes. Drugs in themselves cause chaos for certain users.
:15:46. > :15:56.Drugs continued to pour into the region with 100 seizures in the
:15:56. > :16:02.last six months alone. In the same period, 5200 suspects have been
:16:02. > :16:08.arrested and over the last two years, and 27,000 cannabis plants
:16:08. > :16:16.have been recovered with a street value of over �24 million. With
:16:16. > :16:20.one-third of all crime drug-related, the radical approach is that when
:16:20. > :16:25.someone is arrested, the its councillors will meet with them and
:16:25. > :16:29.stay with them throughout the judicial process. We do not want to
:16:29. > :16:36.see the same faces turning up and going through other court's time
:16:36. > :16:42.and time again. The buying and selling of drugs has now entered a
:16:42. > :16:49.new phase, that of the Internet. Many users log on to him legal
:16:49. > :16:53.sites and order their drugs by post. -- illegal sites will stop it is a
:16:53. > :16:58.new challenge for the new Police and Crime Commissioner us.
:16:58. > :17:01.Behind before I go to meet our guests, I should make it clear that
:17:01. > :17:06.the Police and Crime Commissioner will not be deciding who gets
:17:06. > :17:13.arrested or what houses are read it. They are there to hold the Chief
:17:13. > :17:20.Constable to account, set the budget and devise a strategy falls
:17:20. > :17:27.up -- strategy. You have one story involving drugs and how it has
:17:27. > :17:37.affected you personally. My son was 28 when he died, and he died
:17:37. > :17:39.
:17:39. > :17:44.shortly after taking Ketteman. -- ketamine. How did he get into drugs
:17:44. > :17:51.and how did it affect him? Nightclubs. It caused the mood
:17:51. > :17:57.swings and issues with the eating. He had put up a fascination with
:17:57. > :18:02.water. Could the police are authorities have done anything to
:18:02. > :18:08.sate and? When they swatter Hannon on several occasions they could
:18:08. > :18:12.have warned him about the dangers of drugs. He was one of those
:18:12. > :18:22.people who would listen to authority. Best they had been
:18:22. > :18:22.
:18:22. > :18:30.tougher, you think that could have saved him.A solicitor. Ali police
:18:30. > :18:36.getting their drugs policy are right in this area? I think they're
:18:36. > :18:39.doing what they can with what they have but I think the answer is no.
:18:39. > :18:46.There needs to be a sea change in the education, particularly at
:18:46. > :18:51.schools and youth clubs, with regards to drugs. It requires a lot
:18:51. > :18:58.more money spent on it. Should that be a priority for the new police
:18:58. > :19:06.commissioner? The knock-on effects in order to fund the habit means
:19:06. > :19:11.that we get countless burglaries and it just causes such mayhem and
:19:11. > :19:15.distress to the people of Bristol and the surrounding area. You're
:19:15. > :19:19.running a drugs project and you rely on some funding from the
:19:19. > :19:25.police to keep your organisation going. The Police and Crime
:19:25. > :19:28.Commissioner will decide whether you continue to get that money.
:19:28. > :19:36.There is really still money that if you provide drug treatment, you can
:19:36. > :19:44.reduce crime. For if any �1 you spend on drug treatment, it saves
:19:44. > :19:52.us all two pounds 50. The figures I have says that 97% of people fail
:19:52. > :19:57.to recover from their drug addiction. I do not recognise that.
:19:57. > :20:01.In Bristol, 40% of people successfully led treatment last
:20:01. > :20:09.year and over a period of time, we would expect that around half of
:20:09. > :20:17.people will be able to sustain it. Most people are not recovering
:20:17. > :20:20.filly and we could be able to spend those resources elsewhere?
:20:20. > :20:26.could but you will see crime increase again. Looking back at
:20:26. > :20:32.Bristol, serious crime, we had in excess of 30,001 decade ago and we
:20:32. > :20:37.have just over 8000 now but his direct way related to the increased
:20:37. > :20:42.spend on drug treatment. Tell us your story? I was addicted to
:20:42. > :20:47.heroin for 25 years and I now work with people who have long turned up
:20:47. > :20:52.problems. This may be an opportunity for the Police and
:20:52. > :20:57.Crime Commissioner to get the money spent in the correct sectors. The
:20:57. > :21:04.people doing the frontline work do not get access to the money and it
:21:04. > :21:08.is often very policy driven. Should the Police and Crime Commissioner
:21:08. > :21:16.tell the Chief Constable to concentrate on the harp, or should
:21:16. > :21:21.we have a zero-tolerance of drugs anyway? I can see that as an
:21:21. > :21:24.argument but history and figures, that does not add up. The
:21:24. > :21:32.illegality of the drug or the policies around it have little
:21:32. > :21:35.effect. We all want this magic bullet that will reduce the supply
:21:35. > :21:41.and help young people to make healthier choices but we do not
:21:41. > :21:46.know how to do it. The drug supply it is internationally and
:21:46. > :21:50.incredibly profitable business. If it is not going away any time soon
:21:50. > :21:55.and younger people these days than involved in a very different scene
:21:55. > :22:00.where many people are buying their drugs on the Internet, so-called
:22:00. > :22:06.legal highs. Up you're saying it is unbeatable. Do you all agree with
:22:06. > :22:13.that? It is in the format we have because you cannot enforce the
:22:13. > :22:18.issue so we have to look at a very different alternative. I agree
:22:18. > :22:23.entirely with that. The government needs to spend a lot of money on an
:22:23. > :22:28.advertising campaign such as De anti-smoking campaign, which I
:22:28. > :22:31.think has been remarkably successful. I think we need to
:22:31. > :22:38.educate more and spend more money on the problems that are created if
:22:38. > :22:48.you take drugs. The key decision for the new Police and Crime
:22:48. > :22:49.
:22:49. > :22:52.Commissioner. Thank you all very much. We got now -- if you want to
:22:52. > :23:00.know more about who is standing for election in your area, the easiest
:23:00. > :23:10.thing is to go to the following were six. -- website. Back now to
:23:10. > :23:13.
:23:13. > :23:18.There are 193 candidates standing in the selection and each needs to
:23:18. > :23:21.produce a statement about what they want to achieve. Some mention their
:23:21. > :23:29.military background, some mention their former role in the police a
:23:29. > :23:39.authority, and here are the words used most often. The bigger they
:23:39. > :23:39.
:23:39. > :23:45.are, the more they commonly appear. Out of 55,000 words, only 50
:23:45. > :23:51.instances up Larkhall when 40% of violent crime is caused by alcohol.
:23:51. > :23:55.Another common problem is anti- social behaviour. That is the
:23:55. > :24:05.source of every day O-level nuisance kind that so many of us
:24:05. > :24:05.
:24:05. > :24:14.suffer from. -- low level. You got to the stage of setting up a CCTV
:24:14. > :24:19.camera. It was uncontrollable. They targeted us repeatedly and we kept
:24:19. > :24:24.going to court to try to get them evicted. In the end, life became
:24:24. > :24:34.unbearable and I think the big problem is that the police do not
:24:34. > :24:35.
:24:35. > :24:41.seem to be proactive any worse. An instance of crime would happen...
:24:41. > :24:47.You think someone like yourself would galvanise them? It would be
:24:47. > :24:52.good if you had someone that was possibly independent. I do not
:24:52. > :24:57.think they have enough powers. I think they need a lot more power to
:24:57. > :25:01.audit cases. As soon as the case has gone on for a year, they should
:25:01. > :25:06.look at the case management and what has gone wrong with it. This
:25:06. > :25:12.is not just about police budgets and everything else, it is about
:25:12. > :25:22.understanding what has gone wrong and why it is ineffectual. Why can
:25:22. > :25:26.
:25:26. > :25:33.numerous crimes happen and the people are not caught? There is a
:25:33. > :25:38.certain amount of flexibility, appear to havepowers to evolve?
:25:39. > :25:42.do not think they need more power. Their focus is on policing needs
:25:42. > :25:47.and dealing with chief constables and victims' groups and voluntary
:25:47. > :25:52.her organisations. I do not think they need power but I think they
:25:52. > :25:59.need leadership. I totally disagree because the whole problem is that
:25:59. > :26:05.when you get beneath the surface, up you need to get to the very
:26:05. > :26:09.basics of life that cases such a problem. The need to going and look
:26:09. > :26:16.at the case management and who is doing what, why is the evidence
:26:16. > :26:26.collection not good enough and so on. Why are you having multiple
:26:26. > :26:33.crimes in one the area at all and over again? The person that is
:26:33. > :26:39.successful will go on to say I am going to do this for you.
:26:39. > :26:42.cannot have the same state targeted time and time again. Anyone who is
:26:42. > :26:47.any good as the Police and Crime Commissioner will have a map on
:26:47. > :26:52.their wall and will know on a daily basis where the crimes are coming.
:26:53. > :27:02.I have seen this. They will be able to say to the Chief Constable, why
:27:02. > :27:12.do we have a another burglary on this estate? It is quite a
:27:12. > :27:15.
:27:15. > :27:22.different story from investigating a particular case. The people that
:27:22. > :27:27.I in gangs, the people affected by gangs disproportionately do not
:27:27. > :27:35.laugh in the well-off areas that vote in these elections. Will you
:27:35. > :27:41.be listened to? The question is how are you going to communicate with
:27:41. > :27:46.the people in these communities? If you are going to go down, it cannot
:27:46. > :27:49.just be a one-time thing. somebody going to stand up and say
:27:49. > :27:59.I am going to help you people or will they get the...S from
:27:59. > :28:02.
:28:02. > :28:06.elsewhere? -- vote. They may want to help but if they do not know how
:28:06. > :28:13.to help or who to go to to get help, there may be needs to be based
:28:13. > :28:18.social worker by youth worker that they can talk to. I feel there
:28:19. > :28:25.needs to be more communication and with the young people, the more we
:28:25. > :28:30.are spoken to as a collector of the more we can helps or the problem.
:28:30. > :28:36.- collective. That is just half an hour and you can see the size of
:28:36. > :28:41.the issues we're talking about. We will be holding debates from 9am