0:00:02 > 0:00:04# You are not alone
0:00:04 > 0:00:06# I am here with you... #
0:00:06 > 0:00:14So then Norman Lamont says...something funny.
0:00:14 > 0:00:15And... Oh!
0:00:17 > 0:00:18Bloody hell!
0:00:18 > 0:00:22Andrew Neil Hamilton, I have chosen you to make a pact
0:00:22 > 0:00:25with Satan himself.
0:00:27 > 0:00:33Oh, right. What, a pact with the Devil? Like, er...what's his name?
0:00:33 > 0:00:37- Simon Cowell.- No, Faust. - Oh, yeah, him. Sorry.
0:00:37 > 0:00:41- What kind of pact have you got with Simon Cowell?- Doesn't matter. His time's nearly up anyway.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43So, fleshling,
0:00:43 > 0:00:48I, the Prince Of Darkness, can offer you anything that you...
0:00:48 > 0:00:50Untold riches, please. I'd like untold riches.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53- Mm, sorry, budget cuts.- Eh?
0:00:53 > 0:00:56I've had to restrict my exposure, you know,
0:00:56 > 0:00:59downsize my army of demons, sell my wings, ration my...
0:00:59 > 0:01:03Helen of Troy, then. I'd like Helen of Troy as my...consort.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Helen of Troy'd be great. Cheers.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11No, afraid not. No, she's, er, not really into that sort of thing any more.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14She's...fed up with all the mucky stuff.
0:01:14 > 0:01:22Well, then, can you at least give me some piece of secret, forbidden knowledge?
0:01:22 > 0:01:24Er...
0:01:24 > 0:01:26John Major's having sex with Edwina Currie.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32- Well, if you're going to muck about. - I am Satan! I do not "muck about"!
0:01:32 > 0:01:38- Well, what CAN you offer me? - Using my diabolic powers, I can offer you...
0:01:39 > 0:01:42..a long-running sitcom on Radio Four.
0:01:44 > 0:01:49- A sitcom on Radio Four?- Yeah. Inspired by my wacky adventures.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52Right. Er...well, that'd be lovely.
0:01:52 > 0:01:57I'm not complaining, you know, it's just that...Helen of Troy would...
0:01:57 > 0:02:02- Helen of Troy is not on the table. - OK, then. So, I get this sitcom.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05What price would you exact?
0:02:05 > 0:02:07That in 16 years' time,
0:02:07 > 0:02:10you shall make a documentary on a digital channel,
0:02:10 > 0:02:14correcting all the disinformation about me!
0:02:14 > 0:02:17What's a...digital channel?
0:02:17 > 0:02:20It's like a normal channel, only without the viewers.
0:02:20 > 0:02:26- Now, sign, pitiful mortal! - Not much of a devil's pact, is it?
0:02:26 > 0:02:29No money, no Helen of Troy.
0:02:30 > 0:02:35Can you at least promise me that I will never go bald?
0:02:36 > 0:02:38Yeah, all right.
0:02:38 > 0:02:43- Huh! Great. - Now you are mine, fleshling!
0:02:43 > 0:02:45LAUGHS EVILLY
0:02:51 > 0:02:52OK, we've a lot to get through.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56This is a BBC documentary, so I'm afraid I am
0:02:56 > 0:03:01contractually obliged to begin with the words, "I'm going on a journey".
0:03:01 > 0:03:04My contract also stipulates that I must gaze
0:03:04 > 0:03:08thoughtfully into the distance on at least five occasions.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13So, I'm going on a journey.
0:03:14 > 0:03:19And it begins here, in this theatre - The Drill Hall in London,
0:03:19 > 0:03:23where, for the past 16 years, I have spent many an enjoyable evening
0:03:23 > 0:03:29pretending to be Satan in the Radio Four comedy Old Harry's Game.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31But now, it's payback time.
0:03:31 > 0:03:35Time to ask the big question about Satan - just how did this
0:03:35 > 0:03:41fantastically powerful and ambiguous character get inside our heads?
0:03:41 > 0:03:45And who put him there?
0:03:45 > 0:03:49- The Devil starts out as a divine hitman.- The Devil is a manipulator.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53The Devil is a place where you put things you'd rather forget about.
0:03:53 > 0:03:58- The Devil is primarily a tempter. - The Devil is the mischievous one.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01The tempter who tries to destroy that relationship God has
0:04:01 > 0:04:02with his people.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05But creating the Devil, it means you're giving evil a name
0:04:05 > 0:04:08and turning it into a thing that you can fight against.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10Can I talk to you about Satan?
0:04:10 > 0:04:14Excuse me, can I talk to you about Satan? Excuse me, can I talk...?
0:04:14 > 0:04:16Can I talk to you about Satan?
0:04:16 > 0:04:18Excuse me, can I ask you about Satan?
0:04:18 > 0:04:20Excuse me, could I talk to you about Satan?
0:04:20 > 0:04:24- What sort of things did he do? - He just made everything bad.
0:04:24 > 0:04:30I think he exists possibly as an idea, as a way of thinking.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32It's quite attractive sometimes.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35Excuse me, could I talk to you about Satan?
0:04:35 > 0:04:40If I say the Devil to you, what picture do you get in your head?
0:04:40 > 0:04:43Awesomeness! Heavy-metal music, brilliant!
0:04:43 > 0:04:49- What did he do, what did he get up to in the Bible?- Er...- I don't know.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51I don't really know, to be honest.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55- Excuse me, madam, could I talk to you about Satan? - Sorry, I'm a bit late!- OK.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57Could I talk to you about Satan?
0:04:58 > 0:05:02Oh. I have got to come up with a new opening line.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06Now, I bet already, many of you are thinking,
0:05:06 > 0:05:08"Well, Satan's got nothing to do with me!"
0:05:08 > 0:05:12But even if you don't believe in him, he's still a big part of your life.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16In fact, you've probably encountered the Devil several times today...
0:05:16 > 0:05:19because he permeates every corner of our culture.
0:05:19 > 0:05:24He loiters in our church windows, lurks behind our superstitions,
0:05:24 > 0:05:29he bedevils our language, haunts our art and literature.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33Satan has become a global superstar of stage and screen.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35He's been portrayed by actors
0:05:35 > 0:05:41like Richard Burton, Al Pacino, Jack Nicholson...Liz Hurley.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45But, the Devil we have now, who haunts our popular imagination,
0:05:45 > 0:05:47is not the one we started out with - no, no.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50No, he's evolved over thousands of years.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52- MAN SNEEZES - Bless you.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55Now, why'd I say that?
0:05:55 > 0:05:58So, the Devil that we know, the visual form -
0:05:58 > 0:06:01the horns, the tail, the goat's legs, the pitchfork -
0:06:01 > 0:06:02what are the sources for that?
0:06:02 > 0:06:06One of the main sources is Egyptian mythology.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09In Ancient Egypt, Egyptian belief,
0:06:09 > 0:06:13you had this underworld called Tuat, which was ruled over by the god
0:06:13 > 0:06:19Anubis, who was black-skinned, jackal-headed, smelt of sulphur.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21Lots of images of fire.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25The idea of a force against the force of good,
0:06:25 > 0:06:28we find in pretty much every religion.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32For example, if we go back to 500BC, we have the Buddha
0:06:32 > 0:06:34about to achieve enlightenment,
0:06:34 > 0:06:36sitting under the Bodhi tree, and at this point
0:06:36 > 0:06:39he's attacked by Mara, the manifestation of evil,
0:06:39 > 0:06:42temptation, destruction, etc.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44And he sees him off.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48They also borrowed from Greek mythology.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52- Pan, and that's where you get the legs from. - The legs, and the cloven hoof.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54That half-man, half-beast thing, you find often,
0:06:54 > 0:06:57all gathered together at different stages.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03Another more defined concept of a force of evil emerged with
0:07:03 > 0:07:10Zoroastrianism, a faith which took root in Persia over 3,000 years ago.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14In Zoroastrianism, the belief is that God is wounded.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16God has actually lost the battle,
0:07:16 > 0:07:22and that this physical world is now in the power of Ahriman,
0:07:22 > 0:07:25the evil one, the force of evil, who is a complete equal.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29They are locked in this cosmic struggle and, at the moment,
0:07:29 > 0:07:31the Devil, as we would call him, is winning.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35The ancient world was jam-packed with gods.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38A multitude of mischievous supernatural beings,
0:07:38 > 0:07:42who were quite capable of exhibiting a vicious streak.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45But hardly any were exclusively evil.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48So none of them really resemble OUR Devil.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52Except, well, there is one from early Judaic mythology,
0:07:52 > 0:07:54who is quite similar to Satan in many ways -
0:07:54 > 0:07:58rebels against God, sworn enemy of man, and what's more,
0:07:58 > 0:08:04in the great story of creation, SHE is there from the start.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06Lilith.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09You can look at the Garden of Eden story from the point of view of
0:08:09 > 0:08:12the Devil, Lucifer, Satan, whatever you want to call him or it,
0:08:12 > 0:08:15but I think it's more interesting to look at it from the point of view
0:08:15 > 0:08:18of Lilith, who was sort of Eve's predecessor and got
0:08:18 > 0:08:22slung out of the garden because she challenged the gender arrangement
0:08:22 > 0:08:25and who had the power, who could be on top when they screwed
0:08:25 > 0:08:28and all that kind of thing.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30Lilith is really interesting because,
0:08:30 > 0:08:33the rabbinical tradition says there were three attempts to create
0:08:33 > 0:08:36women at the beginning of time.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39The first one is that God creates man and woman,
0:08:39 > 0:08:43and the man is actually Adam and the woman is Lilith.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46Adam sidles up to Lilith and goes, "Come on, how about it, then?"
0:08:46 > 0:08:49She goes, "If you were - Oh, you are! -
0:08:49 > 0:08:53"the last man, the only man on the planet, I wouldn't go to bed with you."
0:08:53 > 0:08:58And God actually goes and says, "Come on, Lilith." She goes, "Oh!
0:08:58 > 0:09:01"I mean, are we serious? With that?!" And she wanders off.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03Right.
0:09:03 > 0:09:09Now, Lilith is therefore the first person to refuse God's command.
0:09:09 > 0:09:15She goes off into the desert and becomes, as legends grow,
0:09:15 > 0:09:18this deeply malevolent spirit.
0:09:18 > 0:09:23What's interesting is that she was seen as being at large in the world.
0:09:23 > 0:09:25As I understand it,
0:09:25 > 0:09:31she was implicated in the death of infants and unpleasant events.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34She is the person who is there, who basically says,
0:09:34 > 0:09:38normal life is wrong.
0:09:38 > 0:09:43And that's deeply threatening to a world that is desperately trying to hold onto normal life.
0:09:43 > 0:09:44Right.
0:09:44 > 0:09:49While other religions of the ancient Middle East featured many gods
0:09:49 > 0:09:53capable of good or bad, Judaism recognised just one,
0:09:53 > 0:09:55who controls everything.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58And that raises a problem.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02The moment you say he's universal, what do you do with evil?
0:10:02 > 0:10:08What do you do with violence, what do you do with mindless killings
0:10:08 > 0:10:10and harm and pain?
0:10:11 > 0:10:15It was the attempts to answer this huge question that would lead
0:10:15 > 0:10:19to the Devil being given shape in scripture.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23So, let's take a look at the Devil's appearances in the Old Testament.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27This is where we come across a startling fact. He is barely in it.
0:10:27 > 0:10:33The Devil actually appears for less than 0.5% of the Old Testament.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35What sort of villain is that?
0:10:35 > 0:10:38That means if the Old Testament were a Bond movie,
0:10:38 > 0:10:40you'd see this much baddie.
0:10:41 > 0:10:42Welcome, Mr Bo...
0:10:42 > 0:10:44Yep, that's all.
0:10:44 > 0:10:45In percentage terms,
0:10:45 > 0:10:49Satan doesn't appear much more in the New Testament. About the equivalent of...
0:10:51 > 0:10:54Welcome, Mr Bond. I've been expecti...
0:10:54 > 0:10:57But the New Testament is different,
0:10:57 > 0:10:59because although the Devil hardly appears in person,
0:10:59 > 0:11:04he is constantly referred to lurking and plotting off-stage.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07He becomes Jesus's Moriarty.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10All right, so Satan might not get many scenes in the Bible,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13but we all know what he gets up to, don't we?
0:11:13 > 0:11:16What about the Garden of Eden, what did he get up to there?
0:11:16 > 0:11:20- He was the snake.- He was the snake? - He was the snake, wasn't he?
0:11:20 > 0:11:24- I thought he was the snake. - Yeah, there was the apple.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27Yeah, he's a snake, not a lizard. He's a snake.
0:11:27 > 0:11:32- He came as a snake, didn't he, and persuaded them to eat the apple? - The forbidden fruit.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36Well, no. Not according to Genesis. That mentions no Devil.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39Just blames the snake, which was,
0:11:39 > 0:11:44"More subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made."
0:11:44 > 0:11:47So, what else did the Devil famously get up to?
0:11:47 > 0:11:50He used to be an angel but got cast out of Heaven.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53He was cast from Heaven in the Bible.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55Yep, I made that mistake as well.
0:11:55 > 0:12:01I was such a beautiful angel, with flaxen hair, wings like a swan.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05I could always beat the angel Gabriel in a race. Down to Galilee and back.
0:12:05 > 0:12:10Whoosh! I looked magnificent.
0:12:10 > 0:12:15Many years ago, I sat down to write a radio sitcom, set in Hell, about the Devil.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19Naturally, as a writer, I was drawn to the psychological heart
0:12:19 > 0:12:23of the character, that is the story of the fall.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25You know, his roots, his pride, his rebellion,
0:12:25 > 0:12:28his subsequent damnation for all eternity. It's a fantastic story.
0:12:28 > 0:12:33Got out the Bible, started to read it, looking for this story, it's not there.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37Where do we get this story from, the fall?
0:12:37 > 0:12:42The story comes in that gap between the Old and New Testament.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45We have to know what was happening in Judaism at that time.
0:12:45 > 0:12:50Judaism, the Jewish homeland, had been occupied by the Romans,
0:12:50 > 0:12:54so this great question about, "We were God's chosen people,
0:12:54 > 0:12:57"we were Yahweh's chosen people, why has he abandoned us?"
0:12:57 > 0:13:01Then you come to the apocryphal texts written,
0:13:01 > 0:13:06Baruch and others, written from around about 150 BC
0:13:06 > 0:13:10right through to the beginning of the Christian period
0:13:10 > 0:13:14by Jewish writers grappling with why everything seems to have gone wrong again.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18Then this mythology grows up, this story emerges that, yes indeed,
0:13:18 > 0:13:23Satan used to be in the court of Heaven,
0:13:23 > 0:13:28the court of God, but did something so dreadful, he was thrown out.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32There's a series of literature that isn't in the Bible,
0:13:32 > 0:13:35Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, which explored these myths,
0:13:35 > 0:13:39to try and explain why the Jews were in such a mess,
0:13:39 > 0:13:42why they'd been occupied, and why it wasn't God's fault.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44So they created this character of the Devil.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48All right, never mind what isn't in the Bible. Let's look at what is.
0:13:48 > 0:13:54In the very first Satanic appearance, he...startles a donkey.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58In the Book of Numbers, Balaam's ass sees a frightening figure
0:13:58 > 0:14:02brandishing a sword blocking the way, so it swerves off the path.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06Balaam, who can't see the spectre, keeps beating the animal
0:14:06 > 0:14:09until the donkey speaks and says, "Why are you beating me?"
0:14:09 > 0:14:13Before Balaam can say, "Bloody hell, a talking donkey,"
0:14:13 > 0:14:18the spectre intervenes and admonishes Balaam for his cruelty.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22In the King James Bible, that spectre is called the Angel of the Lord,
0:14:22 > 0:14:26but in the original Hebrew scripture, it's Satan.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28Or rather A satan.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31In the Hebrew language, the word satan means?
0:14:31 > 0:14:34It means to get in the way, actually.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37If you're on the way to do something bad, he'll get in your way.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40That's Balaam on his way to curse Israel,
0:14:40 > 0:14:42it's an angel who "satan", who stops him.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45What's his identity?
0:14:45 > 0:14:47Is he an angel who forgot his job spec,
0:14:47 > 0:14:51if you like, and then became this renegade angel?
0:14:51 > 0:14:54He's never, in Judaism, he's never been a renegade angel.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57He's part of the infrastructure of God's divine plans.
0:14:57 > 0:15:01Therefore, he has a job to do, but he's not independent of God,
0:15:01 > 0:15:05and he's not a renegade, as he would be in Christian thought.
0:15:05 > 0:15:06In Jewish tradition,
0:15:06 > 0:15:10this is a little bit how the Devil is regarded.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12That which makes you think.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17What you're supposed to do is reach a position of moral ascendancy,
0:15:17 > 0:15:20- put thee behind me. - You can reject him.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22Yeah, exactly.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26He's not someone who's the source and epitome of evil,
0:15:26 > 0:15:29he's a minor angel with a particular task.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33It's very important that the Satan figure in the Old Testament is not
0:15:33 > 0:15:36the same as the Devil.
0:15:36 > 0:15:38It's not the sort of face of evil.
0:15:38 > 0:15:44Satan is a prosecutor in God's Holy Court. He's absolutely on God's side.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48It's as God's inspector general on Earth that we first meet
0:15:48 > 0:15:52Satan with a capital S in the Book of Job.
0:15:52 > 0:15:53The Book of Job is a powerful
0:15:53 > 0:15:57and moving exploration of the mysteries of man's existence
0:15:57 > 0:16:01in a hostile universe, and I strongly recommend that you read it.
0:16:01 > 0:16:05But if you can't be arsed, here's what happens in two minutes.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07God's sitting on his throne when along comes Satan
0:16:07 > 0:16:10and his mates, the children of God, whoever they might be.
0:16:10 > 0:16:14God says, "You all right, Satan? What you been up to?"
0:16:14 > 0:16:17Satan says, "Roaming through the Earth, going to and fro."
0:16:17 > 0:16:19God says, "Have you seen Job in your travels?
0:16:19 > 0:16:21"He's a God-fearing man, isn't he?"
0:16:21 > 0:16:25Satan says, "Nah, only cos you're so good to him."
0:16:25 > 0:16:29God says, "You're wrong, and to prove it, I authorise you to
0:16:29 > 0:16:32"torment him, but you're not allowed to hurt him physically."
0:16:32 > 0:16:36One morning, Job's at home when a messenger runs in and says,
0:16:36 > 0:16:40"The Sabaeans have stolen all your cattle and killed all your servants."
0:16:40 > 0:16:42And even as that messenger is speaking, another messenger
0:16:42 > 0:16:45runs in and says, "You won't believe this, Job.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48"All your sheep have been struck by lightning."
0:16:48 > 0:16:51Even as THAT one's talking, another arrives and says,
0:16:51 > 0:16:54"The Chaldaeans have stolen all your camels."
0:16:54 > 0:16:57Before Job can even check out the insurance,
0:16:57 > 0:16:59another messenger runs in and says,
0:16:59 > 0:17:04"You know that party your sons and daughters were having? The roof just fell in. They're all dead."
0:17:04 > 0:17:06But Job doesn't blame God, no.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09He just falls to his knees and praises his Lord.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12God turns to Satan and says, "1-0".
0:17:12 > 0:17:14Satan says, "Well, you didn't let me hurt him physically,
0:17:14 > 0:17:16"it wasn't a proper test."
0:17:16 > 0:17:20"All right, you can torture Job, but you mustn't kill him, cos that'd be crossing the line."
0:17:20 > 0:17:24So Job erupts in sores, he's in terrible agony,
0:17:24 > 0:17:29then so-called comforters arrive full of platitudes about why God's punishing him.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33Job starts asking good questions like, "Why do bad people get rich?
0:17:33 > 0:17:35"How can a god know what it's like to suffer?"
0:17:35 > 0:17:39The comforters give him more blah, blah, until Job says,
0:17:39 > 0:17:41"I don't understand any of this.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44"I'm just going to place my trust in my god."
0:17:44 > 0:17:46God appears and says, "Well played, Job."
0:17:46 > 0:17:49And he says to the comforters, "You lot, shut up.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52"It's not for you to understand my ways, I'm God, you're not.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54"Sacrifice seven bulls and seven rams and I'll let you off."
0:17:54 > 0:18:01Then Job gets given a new wife, loads more kids and tons of wealth, and God proves he's a loving god,
0:18:01 > 0:18:05and no-one ever mentions the civilian deaths and collateral damage.
0:18:05 > 0:18:09There is a moment in the Book of Job where God admonishes the Devil,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12and says, "You persuaded me against my better judgment
0:18:12 > 0:18:15"to inflict that suffering on good old Job."
0:18:15 > 0:18:18That seems rather odd for me,
0:18:18 > 0:18:22because it implies God can be almost outwitted by the Devil.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25Yeah, there's a saying which says, "If this had not appeared
0:18:25 > 0:18:28in the Bible, I would never have believed it could have been said."
0:18:28 > 0:18:31So yes, you're not the first to be puzzled by this.
0:18:31 > 0:18:36There is a saying that Job never existed, that he's only
0:18:36 > 0:18:41a figment of somebody's imagination, the whole thing is a kind of attempt
0:18:41 > 0:18:44to argue about the nature of evil and how it affects people,
0:18:44 > 0:18:47and the question about why do the righteous suffer?
0:18:47 > 0:18:49This is the ultimate question in our world.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53The Devil in the Book of Job displays little
0:18:53 > 0:18:56in the way of personality, and he's very much God's employee.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00It's only in the New Testament that Satan develops his own agenda.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03What did he do when he tempted Jesus?
0:19:03 > 0:19:07Make stone into bread, jump off the temple,
0:19:07 > 0:19:11then the angels would catch him and showed him the world, and said,
0:19:11 > 0:19:15"You can have it all if you worship me."
0:19:15 > 0:19:18If you look at the temptations of Jesus in the Gospels,
0:19:18 > 0:19:21there is nothing evil that Satan asks Jesus to do.
0:19:21 > 0:19:26He's tempting him to see if he really understands what he's here for.
0:19:26 > 0:19:30Then at the very end, Jesus says, "Get you behind me",
0:19:30 > 0:19:34because Satan then says, "Why don't you worship me,
0:19:34 > 0:19:36"and we'll be a really good partnership?"
0:19:36 > 0:19:40So you're beginning to get that sense of, he's not just doing what
0:19:40 > 0:19:46God wants, he actually wants some of God's praise and power, and glory.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48That's why he fell.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51When you have notions of pre-existence theory,
0:19:51 > 0:19:55the idea that everything Jesus did being part of a plan,
0:19:55 > 0:19:58the Devil is part of that scheme.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01He's the jeopardy.
0:20:01 > 0:20:05If you took the story of Jesus to a script doctor in Hollywood
0:20:05 > 0:20:11and said, "I've got this idea. What do you think about this?"
0:20:11 > 0:20:14And there was no Devil in it, he would say, by about page 8,
0:20:14 > 0:20:15this guy needs a Devil.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18In the story of Jesus's temptation in the wilderness,
0:20:18 > 0:20:24does the Devil know that Jesus is the son of God for certain?
0:20:24 > 0:20:29Because it's possible to read that story
0:20:29 > 0:20:32as if the Devil is sort of checking him out.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34Absolutely.
0:20:34 > 0:20:38There is a kind of playfulness on the part of the Devil in that story.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41The Devil tries to get Jesus to declare his goodness.
0:20:41 > 0:20:46The playfulness is really the Devil's way of trying to get Jesus
0:20:46 > 0:20:49to say publicly and clearly that he is the son of God.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52With a view to...? How would that benefit the Devil?
0:20:52 > 0:20:54To manipulate Jesus.
0:20:54 > 0:20:58The Devil wants Jesus to act as he would,
0:20:58 > 0:20:59the Devil is trying to get Jesus...
0:20:59 > 0:21:01Once the Devil knows he is the son of God,
0:21:01 > 0:21:04how can he hope to manipulate him?
0:21:04 > 0:21:07He can't, but that's what he's trying to do.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10Why would he imagine that he could dupe the Son of God?
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Hubris.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17But that's pretty stupid. That's more than hubris, isn't it?
0:21:17 > 0:21:20That's not a tragic flaw, that's stupidity.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22Yes, the Devil is flawed.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25The Devil will keep trying to manipulate people to turn them
0:21:25 > 0:21:28against God, and will use whatever means possible.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31There are some teachings that say as soon as the Devil realises
0:21:31 > 0:21:36that Jesus is Jesus, that he is the son of God, the anointed one,
0:21:36 > 0:21:38that he knows his fate from then on.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42As a writer, do you think that, narratively, that's a problem?
0:21:42 > 0:21:43Everybody knows.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46It's foretold that he's going to fail and be defeated.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Yes, but knowing what happens at the end of something
0:21:50 > 0:21:53doesn't necessarily ruin the journey to get there.
0:21:53 > 0:21:57When James Cameron came in with the idea for Titanic,
0:21:57 > 0:22:00I shouldn't imagine they went, "Here's one problem.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02"How are we going to...?
0:22:02 > 0:22:05"We've got to somehow sort of stop it being known.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07"I know it happened in 1912,
0:22:07 > 0:22:10"but there must be a way, otherwise this has got no ending."
0:22:10 > 0:22:13- It's about the journey. - The Devil is the iceberg.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18What I'm getting out is it's only a problem in the characterisation
0:22:18 > 0:22:21of the Devil, in terms of...
0:22:23 > 0:22:25The Devil is a flawed character.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29That is actually one of his most defining characteristics,
0:22:29 > 0:22:32that he is flawed.
0:22:32 > 0:22:36He's got issues, you're right. He has got issues.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38In some of the Gospels,
0:22:38 > 0:22:41the Devil is implicated in the corruption of Judas.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43But it's in the letters of St Paul,
0:22:43 > 0:22:47the earliest recorded Christian writings, that he starts to emerge
0:22:47 > 0:22:52as the ever-present enemy, lying in wait, ready to sabotage and entrap.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23So, St Paul put a bit more general...
0:23:23 > 0:23:26- OMEN THEME PLAYS - ..into the notion of the Devil,
0:23:26 > 0:23:30but he is still a very one-dimensional character.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34And what doesn't help is that there are no visual descriptions
0:23:34 > 0:23:36of him in the Bible. Well, not until the end
0:23:36 > 0:23:40when we get an idea of what he looks like in the Book of Revelations.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45Well, sort of.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47There is a reference to "that great dragon",
0:23:47 > 0:23:51this is the vision of the Apocalypse, and there is a reference
0:23:51 > 0:23:53to, "That great dragon,
0:23:53 > 0:23:58"the old serpent that is called the Devil and Satan."
0:23:58 > 0:24:02And it's a sort of mystical, ecstatic vision of this curious beast
0:24:02 > 0:24:06with lots of heads and mystical signs, but it is putting together,
0:24:06 > 0:24:10if you like, a notion of some diabolical beast.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15This is heavy stuff about Rome and the powers and pressures,
0:24:15 > 0:24:20but the image that comes through that is of this dragon who has
0:24:20 > 0:24:25a gaping mouth into which the damned are thrown and chewed up.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29You've got the brimstone, you've got the salt, the sulphur smell,
0:24:29 > 0:24:32you've got the horns, you've got the tail, the lake of fire,
0:24:32 > 0:24:36and that whole question about the role of the Devil in relation
0:24:36 > 0:24:40to God, they try and reconcile in the Book of Revelation.
0:24:40 > 0:24:44The Devil is there as a menace and as a temptation to us,
0:24:44 > 0:24:46but ultimately it will never be victorious.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49It's like he's fighting with his arm tied behind his back.
0:24:49 > 0:24:53So, by the end of Revelations, yes, the...
0:24:53 > 0:24:55OMEN THEME PLAYS
0:24:55 > 0:24:59..has been upped again and there is more of the Devil,
0:24:59 > 0:25:02but still our picture of him is no clearer, really.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07He is described through allegory and symbolism
0:25:07 > 0:25:09and extravagant chaotic imagery.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13One second he's a huge red dragon, then he's a serpent,
0:25:13 > 0:25:16then he's got seven heads and ten horns
0:25:16 > 0:25:19and then he's a leopard with the feet of a bear
0:25:19 > 0:25:21and the mouth of a lion.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23It's bewildering.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25Imagine I'm an early Christian.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28What mental image do you think they had of Satan?
0:25:28 > 0:25:33My basic answer is, there are as many devils as there are early Christians.
0:25:33 > 0:25:37Unless the Devil chooses to take a form and appear to you as a man
0:25:37 > 0:25:41or an angel or a lion, you probably won't see him
0:25:41 > 0:25:44with your own eyes, so there are no pictures of the Devil
0:25:44 > 0:25:47pictured as a human with horns and wings and a tail
0:25:47 > 0:25:49until the late 6th century, and even then it takes
0:25:49 > 0:25:52another 200 years or so to really take off.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55But if early Christians found it hard to get
0:25:55 > 0:25:56a visual fix on the Devil,
0:25:56 > 0:25:59they found it even harder to answer the biggest question of all.
0:26:01 > 0:26:05What the Christian world does is have one single all-powerful God
0:26:05 > 0:26:08who creates everything.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11And therefore, for the first time, you have a force of evil
0:26:11 > 0:26:14in the cosmos who has to be produced by the good God,
0:26:14 > 0:26:17and that puts an awful lot of strain into theology.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24All right, so, anything good in the latest epistle from Paul?
0:26:24 > 0:26:27Not much, a bit of gossip about Timothy.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30Right so that just leaves us with "Any Other Business".
0:26:30 > 0:26:35I'm still getting a lot of grief from believers about that question,
0:26:35 > 0:26:39if there is only one God, and he's a loving God,
0:26:39 > 0:26:40why did he let my crops fail?
0:26:40 > 0:26:43- Look... - Why did he said my barn on fire?
0:26:43 > 0:26:47- Look...- Why did he let the Romans crucify all my relatives?
0:26:47 > 0:26:50- Yeah, I'm getting that one a lot as well.- We've been over this.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53Tell them that all the evil in the world should be blamed on the Devil.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56But then they just ask, "Who is this Devil?"
0:26:56 > 0:26:58- Well...- And who made him?
0:26:58 > 0:26:59Well, God made everything.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02Then they just ask, "Why did God make him?"
0:27:02 > 0:27:04- Well...- And why did God make him such an evil git?
0:27:04 > 0:27:07Ah! No! God doesn't make anything evil.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09So he didn't make the Devil, then?
0:27:09 > 0:27:14- So the Devil is some sort of rival god?- Absolutely not.
0:27:14 > 0:27:18- There is one God and he made everything.- Including the Devil?
0:27:18 > 0:27:19Well...
0:27:19 > 0:27:21Who is evil.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23No, but...
0:27:24 > 0:27:28I've got a headache now.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30The Jews have had one God for centuries,
0:27:30 > 0:27:31how do they deal with this one?
0:27:31 > 0:27:32They just shrug and get on with it.
0:27:32 > 0:27:34They say God knows what he's doing.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36I'm not sure my lot will settle for that.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38That's a lot of trust.
0:27:38 > 0:27:42Maybe we could make this Devil person a bit clearer.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45What we need is a back story.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48Now, before David Starkey writes in,
0:27:48 > 0:27:51this is not an attempt at historical accuracy, OK?
0:27:51 > 0:27:53There were never any meetings like this,
0:27:53 > 0:27:55this is just a low-budget dramatisation
0:27:55 > 0:27:59of a huge philosophical question that confronted the early Church.
0:28:01 > 0:28:05Sorry, it's just I didn't want any e-mails.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08- Back story for the Devil.- Perfect!
0:28:08 > 0:28:10Oh, hang on, I've got some Apocrypha in here.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13Oh no, not the Apocrypha! That's full of mental stuff about giants.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16It will destroy our credibility.
0:28:16 > 0:28:17You can cherry-pick.
0:28:17 > 0:28:21I know I saw something in here, something about fallen angels.
0:28:21 > 0:28:22Ah! Found it!
0:28:24 > 0:28:28A biography of the Devil duly emerged,
0:28:28 > 0:28:29partly to answer pagan critics
0:28:29 > 0:28:32who found the idea of a single force of evil ridiculous.
0:28:32 > 0:28:34Writing in the third century,
0:28:34 > 0:28:38the Christian theologian, Origen, put some flesh on Satan's bones.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40He's the one who actually,
0:28:40 > 0:28:43I think, probably first puts together various different bits
0:28:43 > 0:28:47of scripture to produce a story of the Devil's origin
0:28:47 > 0:28:49as being pride before a fall.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52So, for Origen, the Devil was created as a good angel,
0:28:52 > 0:28:55and his first sin was that of pride,
0:28:55 > 0:28:59of wanting to be as big as, and as powerful as God.
0:29:01 > 0:29:05The idea of a devil brought down by pride
0:29:05 > 0:29:08is common to both Christianity and Islam.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12God creates this being, Adam, the human, the first human.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15And he calls upon all the inhabitants of Paradise
0:29:15 > 0:29:19to basically bow down before this being that he has created,
0:29:19 > 0:29:21as the Koran says, with his own hands.
0:29:21 > 0:29:25And, of course, Satan refuses to do so and says, "Why should I?
0:29:25 > 0:29:27"I have worshipped you for so many years.
0:29:27 > 0:29:31"I am made of fire, this thing is made of clay.
0:29:31 > 0:29:36"I am superior to it." So there's a sin of pride involved in that.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39But also a sin of pride involved with respect to, "I've worshipped
0:29:39 > 0:29:41"you for so many years and you're telling me
0:29:41 > 0:29:45"to commit a violation of the basic precept of monotheism,
0:29:45 > 0:29:47"to bow down before something other than God."
0:29:47 > 0:29:51So, it seems that in some Islamic traditions
0:29:51 > 0:29:55the Devil's sins are pride and being a stickler for the rules.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57In the poetry that you see in the medieval period,
0:29:57 > 0:30:02that is seen as the ultimate sincerity of worship,
0:30:02 > 0:30:09the fact that he is even willing to disobey God in his worship of God.
0:30:09 > 0:30:11In Christianity,
0:30:11 > 0:30:15the Devil's charge sheet had been totting up for centuries.
0:30:15 > 0:30:19And top of the list were offences committed in Paradise.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30There, you see? Satan is an angel who rebels and is banished by God.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33Satan's got the hump and that's why there's suffering in the world.
0:30:33 > 0:30:39Well, that makes enough sense to stop the questions, doesn't it?
0:30:39 > 0:30:44- So, did God create Satan, the angel? - Obviously, God makes everything.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48- So, was Satan evil from the start? - No, God wouldn't make anything evil.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52- So, Satan turned evil? - Yes, that's it! He turned evil.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54- Of his own free will.- Perfect.- Why?
0:30:55 > 0:30:57Pride. He wanted to be God.
0:30:57 > 0:31:01But surely he must have known he couldn't become God because...
0:31:01 > 0:31:05Envy, then. He was envious of us because God liked us best.
0:31:05 > 0:31:09He was cross with God, so, he took it out on man.
0:31:09 > 0:31:11With God's authority?
0:31:11 > 0:31:14- Erm...- Or was he outside God's power?
0:31:14 > 0:31:19Well, no. Nothing is outside God's power.
0:31:19 > 0:31:21Then, why didn't God just destroy him?
0:31:25 > 0:31:28I think, theologically, one can try too hard
0:31:28 > 0:31:30to nail things down sometimes.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33All this fallen angel stuff, I mean,
0:31:33 > 0:31:37there's no real specific mention of it in the scriptures, is there?
0:31:37 > 0:31:39Isaiah 14.
0:31:39 > 0:31:41"How thou art fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer,
0:31:41 > 0:31:43"son of the morning."
0:31:43 > 0:31:47Isn't that a reference to the King of Babylon?
0:31:47 > 0:31:49Not any more, it isn't.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01One of the classics is, people say,
0:32:01 > 0:32:04"Where was the Devil in the Garden of Eden, then?"
0:32:04 > 0:32:05Cos this idea of Original Sin,
0:32:05 > 0:32:08that Eve was tempted by the Devil,
0:32:08 > 0:32:10which was one of the things the church was keen on.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12You read the story and think,
0:32:12 > 0:32:15"There was no Devil there. Ah, but the serpent was there."
0:32:15 > 0:32:17I think, by the time you get to the fourth century,
0:32:17 > 0:32:22the connection between the serpent in Eden and the Devil
0:32:22 > 0:32:25is absolutely entrenched and Christians have actually, then,
0:32:25 > 0:32:29got to the stage of working out what kinds of problems that produces.
0:32:29 > 0:32:32Was it that the Devil possessed an actual, living snake?
0:32:32 > 0:32:36And if so, why did God pronounce a punishment on the snake,
0:32:36 > 0:32:39- given that it was the Devil? - Seems unfair.
0:32:39 > 0:32:41There's this idea of almost, retrospectively,
0:32:41 > 0:32:44going back and finding the Devil in stories,
0:32:44 > 0:32:47and all the time, building up the cult of the Devil.
0:32:47 > 0:32:49OK, OK, OK. I think we've got this.
0:32:49 > 0:32:54Because of man's Original Sin, our Lord Jesus had to redeem,
0:32:54 > 0:32:56i.e. buy back, our sins.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59- From whom?- Sorry?
0:32:59 > 0:33:01Who did he have to buy them back from?
0:33:01 > 0:33:03Er, from the Devil.
0:33:03 > 0:33:09Yes, until Jesus saved us, we were part of the Devil's dominion.
0:33:09 > 0:33:13- Right, with God's punishment? - Oh, don't start all that again!
0:33:13 > 0:33:16It all makes the Devil sound very important, doesn't it?
0:33:16 > 0:33:20What if Jesus bought back our sins for the satisfaction of God?
0:33:20 > 0:33:22Yes, I like that.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25So, God sends his son to die for man,
0:33:25 > 0:33:29so that God could call it quits with man?
0:33:29 > 0:33:32Yes, I think so.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35It's all a bit abstract, isn't it? Not sure it'll put bums on seats.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37But it's not abstract.
0:33:37 > 0:33:42Look, God made the world good, then, man made it bad of his own free will,
0:33:42 > 0:33:45by succumbing to the Devil / snake.
0:33:45 > 0:33:49But through God's good grace, man can be redeemed
0:33:49 > 0:33:53and be freed from the hold of the Devil, who God made good,
0:33:53 > 0:33:55but who, of his own free will, turned bad.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57So, can the Devil be redeemed?
0:33:58 > 0:34:01Now, that's a very good question.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04I think most theologians, if you asked them,
0:34:04 > 0:34:05would say that he will...
0:34:05 > 0:34:09He's damned to the hellfire for eternity,
0:34:09 > 0:34:13because that, strictly speaking, is what the Koran says.
0:34:13 > 0:34:15Now, he could have been thrown to Hell then and there,
0:34:15 > 0:34:17but he asks, you know,
0:34:17 > 0:34:19"Can I have respite so that I can basically show you
0:34:19 > 0:34:23"how bad these humans that you've created really are going to be?
0:34:23 > 0:34:27"And you will see how many people I drive away from you."
0:34:27 > 0:34:30It's almost like a challenge to God and God basically accepts
0:34:30 > 0:34:31and says, "OK, fine. Do your best."
0:34:31 > 0:34:35The story of the fallen angel, who falls from grace
0:34:35 > 0:34:42and ends up as sort of governor of Hell, if you like -
0:34:42 > 0:34:43can he ever be redeemed?
0:34:43 > 0:34:47Yeah, that's a really good question
0:34:47 > 0:34:52and one which really comes back again to what we understand as
0:34:52 > 0:34:54the Devil's definite rejection of God.
0:34:54 > 0:34:58The Devil understood what it meant to reject God.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02The Devil understood that by his rejection of God, it would be absolute.
0:35:02 > 0:35:07- Right.- And knowing that it would be absolute, and that it would put himself beyond redemption,
0:35:07 > 0:35:09the Devil continued to reject God.
0:35:09 > 0:35:14So that makes the Devil unique in the sense that he doesn't get cut the slack
0:35:14 > 0:35:18- that human beings get cut, does he? - No.
0:35:18 > 0:35:21Human beings can be disobedient, rebellious to God,
0:35:21 > 0:35:23but they can be redeemed.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25Absolutely. As human beings,
0:35:25 > 0:35:27we're made in the image and likeness of God.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31We have an innate goodness within us,
0:35:31 > 0:35:34that enables us to overcome...
0:35:34 > 0:35:40But Satan was an angel - he had goodness in him as well. Is his goodness fully extinguished?
0:35:40 > 0:35:44The Devil chose to extinguish his own goodness.
0:35:44 > 0:35:48But could he not see the error of his ways and be...
0:35:48 > 0:35:49be restored to grace?
0:35:49 > 0:35:52That's the definitiveness of his rejection of God.
0:35:52 > 0:35:56The Devil knew that his rejection of God was absolute.
0:35:56 > 0:35:59That his rejection of God would put him beyond redemption,
0:35:59 > 0:36:01and yet still he chose to reject God.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04It's like he knew at the outset what was in the contract.
0:36:04 > 0:36:09Absolutely. It's something that the Devil chose to do freely, and with knowledge of what he was doing.
0:36:10 > 0:36:17But if he had no hope of redemption, at least Satan had been given his own kingdom to rule.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20MUSIC: "Carmina Burana" by Carl Orff
0:36:20 > 0:36:23All right - that's enough of that. We're frightening people.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26- There's a real sense of life hanging by a thread.- Yeah.
0:36:26 > 0:36:30And I think the Devil very much played into that very pessimistic view of the world,
0:36:30 > 0:36:34and I think people basically thought that they were going to Hell.
0:36:34 > 0:36:36You hear very little talk of Heaven in that period.
0:36:36 > 0:36:43It just feels like Hell dominated people's world view, for all sorts of very good, practical reasons.
0:36:46 > 0:36:51Behold, mortal! For you have entered my realm of torment,
0:36:51 > 0:36:54and here ye shall languish through all eternity.
0:36:54 > 0:36:58For I...am the bringer of destruction.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02The Prince of Doom!
0:37:02 > 0:37:05EVIL LAUGH
0:37:06 > 0:37:07Gosh!
0:37:07 > 0:37:12What's the Judaic equivalent of Hell?
0:37:12 > 0:37:14Ah, Gehinnom.
0:37:14 > 0:37:20There isn't the same kind of picture of fire and brimstone and so forth.
0:37:20 > 0:37:26After death we go through a period of evaluation, searching,
0:37:26 > 0:37:29questioning, challenging of our past and our failures,
0:37:29 > 0:37:31at the end of which time
0:37:31 > 0:37:33just about everybody's guaranteed a place in Heaven.
0:37:33 > 0:37:38I once thought if you did a Which? Guide to Religions, do you get a place in the world to come?
0:37:38 > 0:37:42- we're pretty good on that. - You're quite high. A high rating.
0:37:42 > 0:37:46Christian tradition casts Satan as the overlord of the damned.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48But Islam places him lower down the pecking order.
0:37:50 > 0:37:55He is as much someone who will suffer in Hell as others will.
0:37:55 > 0:37:59Right. So he doesn't have the job of being sort of Hell's janitor...
0:37:59 > 0:38:02- that he does in Christianity? - No. Absolutely not.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06There's actually an angel whose job it is to be sort of the warden of Hell.
0:38:06 > 0:38:10- Oh, there's a designated angel?- Yes. There's a totally different person.
0:38:10 > 0:38:15Whereas, in the vision of Hell which endures from medieval Christianity,
0:38:15 > 0:38:17it's Satan who is very much in charge
0:38:17 > 0:38:20of dishing out appropriate punishments.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23All right - I admit it was wrong of me to shoot those elephants
0:38:23 > 0:38:26and then rip their tusks out for the ivory.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28It was greedy. It was brutal.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31And it ruined everyone's enjoyment of the circus.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33- Mm-hm...- What?
0:38:33 > 0:38:36Why are you smiling at me like tha...?
0:38:36 > 0:38:39POUNDING FOOTSTEPS Oh, no...
0:38:39 > 0:38:41ELEPHANT TRUMPETS
0:38:46 > 0:38:49The Devil's army of demons loomed large
0:38:49 > 0:38:52in the popular stories of medieval Christendom,
0:38:52 > 0:38:54revolving around the lives of the saints.
0:38:54 > 0:38:56The life of St Anthony,
0:38:56 > 0:38:59in which the Devil and demons appear to Anthony
0:38:59 > 0:39:03in the form of horrible beasts, and they beat him up at one point -
0:39:03 > 0:39:04I think he makes the sign of the cross
0:39:04 > 0:39:09and immediately they all disappear. But he's still left with bruises.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14You weren't even safe from the Devil in your bed.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18I'm getting quite a lot of flock coming to me,
0:39:18 > 0:39:22and confessing that their bodies are committing mortal sins,
0:39:22 > 0:39:24without their being able to control them,
0:39:24 > 0:39:26whilst they're asleep.
0:39:26 > 0:39:29- Yes, I'm getting a lot of questions about that as well.- Hmm. Tricky one.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32Can't we just blame it on the Jews?
0:39:32 > 0:39:34That's always been our fallback, hasn't it?
0:39:34 > 0:39:37- Not really. - Actually there is one avenue...
0:39:37 > 0:39:41Do you remember that ancient Jewish demon, Lilith?
0:39:41 > 0:39:43Ooh - Adam's uppity first wife?
0:39:43 > 0:39:46According to legend, she was a succubus,
0:39:46 > 0:39:48who would visit men and women and extract bodily fluids.
0:39:48 > 0:39:51Why don't we say, the Devil's got an army of such creatures
0:39:51 > 0:39:54who consort with men and women while they sleep?
0:39:54 > 0:39:58So it's not a mortal sin - cos the Devil's servants are secretly raping you.
0:39:58 > 0:40:03I think our followers will find that explanation comforting.
0:40:03 > 0:40:06And yet at the same time... terrifying.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10Comforting yet terrifying - the old formula.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12When has it ever let us down, eh?
0:40:12 > 0:40:14Right, meeting over - let's break out the mead.
0:40:17 > 0:40:21I sort of make my living on radio pretending to be the Devil and laughing at him.
0:40:21 > 0:40:24Did the early Christians ever laugh at him?
0:40:24 > 0:40:26Quite a lot of the time I think there's probably some
0:40:26 > 0:40:30psychological need to make something fairly horrendous bearable
0:40:30 > 0:40:32by making it humorous or kind of grotesque.
0:40:32 > 0:40:37There is a tendency quite often to think of the Devil
0:40:37 > 0:40:40and demons as being things that might get inside you.
0:40:40 > 0:40:43And the way in which they get inside you is often through ingestion.
0:40:43 > 0:40:49There's a very famous story about a nun who eats a lettuce leaf
0:40:49 > 0:40:52without making the sign of the cross over it beforehand.
0:40:52 > 0:40:57And there's, unbeknownst to her, a little demon squatting on the lettuce
0:40:57 > 0:41:00leaf, and so because she's failed to exorcise it or get rid of it,
0:41:00 > 0:41:03when she eats the lettuce leaf she also takes in the demon
0:41:03 > 0:41:06and has to be exorcised in typically unpleasant fashion.
0:41:06 > 0:41:10And that idea that just eating a salad might be something that
0:41:10 > 0:41:12which comes with a kind of demonic risk
0:41:12 > 0:41:15tells you something quite serious I think about
0:41:15 > 0:41:17the ubiquity of the Devil.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20But it also suggests a way of telling cautionary tales which
0:41:20 > 0:41:23I think does have a sly wink to the reader.
0:41:23 > 0:41:28Towards the High Middle Ages the Devil was seen as a figure of fun.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31In a lot of churches we see grotesque gargoyles.
0:41:31 > 0:41:34- Mmm.- Are they scary, or are they amusing?
0:41:34 > 0:41:37A tongue being stuck out, kind of thing.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39So what do we mean by that medieval image?
0:41:39 > 0:41:43I think we often confuse the medieval image of the Devil
0:41:43 > 0:41:44with modernity,
0:41:44 > 0:41:48which ties in more really with the Reformation
0:41:48 > 0:41:51than the Catholic medieval world.
0:41:51 > 0:41:55So, in the stories of the lives of the saints, and in the mystery plays,
0:41:55 > 0:42:00people perceive the Devil as both comic and/or scary.
0:42:01 > 0:42:03Though it's difficult to be sure
0:42:03 > 0:42:05exactly what ordinary people believe.
0:42:05 > 0:42:10Especially when much of the evidence comes from what survives of their popular culture.
0:42:10 > 0:42:11After all - on that basis,
0:42:11 > 0:42:15future historians might conclude that we all believed in vampires.
0:42:15 > 0:42:17Pious people in general, by about 1600,
0:42:17 > 0:42:20the Devil's a lifelong companion.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23He's always there trying to destroy you.
0:42:23 > 0:42:26But for ordinary people, he's clearly a physical presence,
0:42:26 > 0:42:28which means you can outrun him.
0:42:28 > 0:42:30You can overpower him if you're strong enough,
0:42:30 > 0:42:33you can tweak his nose with hot tongs,
0:42:33 > 0:42:35and you can get the best of him.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38It's a kind of simple equation that the more devout you are,
0:42:38 > 0:42:40the more seriously you take the Devil.
0:42:40 > 0:42:43In northern Europe in the early 16th century,
0:42:43 > 0:42:47new ideas emerged which tore Christian Europe apart,
0:42:47 > 0:42:51and helped put the Devil even more firmly centre stage.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54Ironically, this fear of Satan comes as part of the
0:42:54 > 0:42:57overthrow of the Catholic world,
0:42:57 > 0:43:00and in the coming of a Protestant and Enlightenment world
0:43:00 > 0:43:03in which the world suddenly becomes weirder.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14Do you think that there was an element that the Reformation,
0:43:14 > 0:43:18because it stripped away all those protective rituals,
0:43:18 > 0:43:21that people felt under more pressure, more frightened?
0:43:21 > 0:43:24Well, the Devil gets bigger in Catholicism as well
0:43:24 > 0:43:26in the same period.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29Basically the 16th century is a great age for the Devil.
0:43:29 > 0:43:30But you're absolutely right -
0:43:30 > 0:43:35Protestants depend on an idea of constant struggle with yourself
0:43:35 > 0:43:37to save your soul,
0:43:37 > 0:43:39and total reliance upon God.
0:43:39 > 0:43:41In other words, it's useless now going out
0:43:41 > 0:43:43and founding a monastery to try and save yourself,
0:43:43 > 0:43:45it's got to be a spiritual act.
0:43:45 > 0:43:49And therefore the Devil inside, the Devil around,
0:43:49 > 0:43:51the Devil constantly with you,
0:43:51 > 0:43:54becomes a major part of your life, literally a daily event.
0:43:54 > 0:43:59The Devil was certainly a fact of daily life for the man
0:43:59 > 0:44:02who lit the fuse on the Reformation, Martin Luther.
0:44:02 > 0:44:08He was obsessed by the Devil. Martin Luther had terrible bowel problems...
0:44:08 > 0:44:12I know. He thought the Devil lived in his bowels. And he saw him constantly...
0:44:12 > 0:44:16Threw an ink pot at him in Wartburg Castle, the stain is still on the wall...
0:44:16 > 0:44:18He was Devil-obsessed.
0:44:18 > 0:44:23So there was no difference here between Catholics and Protestants in all of that.
0:44:23 > 0:44:29And it was to do with the way that life was lived, and the frailty and fragility of life,
0:44:29 > 0:44:31that the Devil became a very logical explanation.
0:44:31 > 0:44:36It sounds mad now that the Devil was a LOGICAL explanation, but I think it was for people then.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39Ken Russell's notorious film The Devils
0:44:39 > 0:44:42dramatised just one sorry episode in the witch craze
0:44:42 > 0:44:45which swelled across Europe and North America
0:44:45 > 0:44:47in the 16th and 17th centuries,
0:44:47 > 0:44:50and which saw the execution of thousands of people,
0:44:50 > 0:44:52most of them women.
0:44:52 > 0:44:55So apart from the Reformation, the sectarian hatred,
0:44:55 > 0:44:59what other propellants fuelled the witch craze?
0:44:59 > 0:45:02There are two reasons why witch trials peak around 1600.
0:45:02 > 0:45:07The first is the Reformation and Counter-Reformation struggle going on,
0:45:07 > 0:45:09so people are more worried about the Devil
0:45:09 > 0:45:13and especially judges and officials are more ready to hear accusations.
0:45:13 > 0:45:17But also climate's gone wrong - where it's the nadir, the bottom point,
0:45:17 > 0:45:21for an official ice age, in which the weather has got worse for 200 years.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25So you can't grow crops now for 30 days in the year
0:45:25 > 0:45:28which you could a couple of hundred years before.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31And the population's been growing ever since the late 15th century
0:45:31 > 0:45:35to a point at which it's outgrowing its resources all over Europe.
0:45:35 > 0:45:37There are just too many people. There's too little food,
0:45:37 > 0:45:41so people are right on the breadline in a way they hadn't been before.
0:45:42 > 0:45:46Witchcraft had once been seen as a minor legal offence.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48But now it was the Devil's work.
0:45:48 > 0:45:52Neighbour turned on neighbour, and whole communities were torn apart.
0:45:52 > 0:45:56But then the witch craze just ran out of steam.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00I think that people get tired of religious warfare
0:46:00 > 0:46:02and persecution because it isn't working.
0:46:02 > 0:46:07And they start inventing scientific laws to take the place of constant faith.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10It's basically persecutions and experiments that fails.
0:46:10 > 0:46:13And the Devil is part of that experiment.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16The witch craze was the Devil's highpoint.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19Soon, he would fade into a metaphor.
0:46:19 > 0:46:22But writers continued to find him a compelling character.
0:46:22 > 0:46:26And none more so than the English Puritan John Milton.
0:46:26 > 0:46:29It's Milton who, in Paradise Lost, for the first time
0:46:29 > 0:46:35gives you a kind of credible psychological portrait of the Devil.
0:46:35 > 0:46:41What Milton wants to produce is a Satan who is created by God and goes bad
0:46:41 > 0:46:44and now acts as God's instrument of temptation.
0:46:44 > 0:46:47So he's got to be good at his job.
0:46:47 > 0:46:50And, in Milton's fantastic verse and with his insight in psychology,
0:46:50 > 0:46:54he makes Satan a totally plausible tempter.
0:46:54 > 0:46:58Why then was this forbid? Why but to awe
0:46:58 > 0:47:00Why but to keep ye low and ignorant
0:47:00 > 0:47:04His worshipper; He knows that in the day
0:47:04 > 0:47:08Ye Eate thereof Your Eyes that seem so cleere
0:47:08 > 0:47:10Yet are but dim Shall perfectly be then
0:47:10 > 0:47:14Op'nd and cleerd And ye shall be as Gods.
0:47:14 > 0:47:17Milton's Devil in Paradise Lost
0:47:17 > 0:47:22is so seductive, so magnificent, so...
0:47:23 > 0:47:24You just fall for him.
0:47:24 > 0:47:29I really don't believe that John Milton or most people of his time
0:47:29 > 0:47:31ever felt sympathy for Satan.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35What they do is watch on with horror at how plausible and how good he is.
0:47:35 > 0:47:37But it's the modern age
0:47:37 > 0:47:40that doesn't have the salvation and damnation mindset.
0:47:40 > 0:47:43Milton's Satan is really a hero.
0:47:43 > 0:47:46Intentionally or not, Milton humanised Satan,
0:47:46 > 0:47:49giving him a complex psychology.
0:47:49 > 0:47:52And psychology was where the Devil's future lay.
0:47:52 > 0:47:54With thinkers like Jung.
0:47:54 > 0:47:58Carl Gustav Jung had this notion that there really was evil.
0:47:58 > 0:48:01It wasn't just that there was an absence of good
0:48:01 > 0:48:04or that there was something that was a little bit disturbing
0:48:04 > 0:48:06or would lead to rising disquiet.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08There really was something evil.
0:48:08 > 0:48:10Now, this is not very fashionable.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13The idea of absolute evil is a very traditional idea.
0:48:13 > 0:48:16And I think there's something in it.
0:48:16 > 0:48:19An evil that you cannot write out of the script -
0:48:19 > 0:48:22something that is there in the universe that is just bad.
0:48:23 > 0:48:27Jung may arguably be the greatest psychologist of religion,
0:48:27 > 0:48:29but he still struggled with
0:48:29 > 0:48:32paradoxes which have troubled religious believers for centuries.
0:48:32 > 0:48:35The problem with Jung is he said two things.
0:48:35 > 0:48:38On the one hand, he says there's absolute evil that's totally real.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40And, on the other hand,
0:48:40 > 0:48:43we project all our shadowy personal difficulties
0:48:43 > 0:48:47and problems and perversities onto the Devil. So it's both, really.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50In you projected outwards
0:48:50 > 0:48:54and already out there, waiting to act.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58The Devil was disappearing from people's spiritual lives,
0:48:58 > 0:49:01melting into an abstract concept.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04But he was about to start a new career.
0:49:04 > 0:49:05He may have lost his teeth and claws,
0:49:05 > 0:49:08but he'd put on a top hat and tails.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11When did the urbane Devil first appear?
0:49:11 > 0:49:15The urbane Devil first appears in the Renaissance and post that.
0:49:15 > 0:49:20There's an interest in the psychology of the Devil for the first time
0:49:20 > 0:49:22in a big way.
0:49:22 > 0:49:25And that leads through to the nicer, kinder,
0:49:25 > 0:49:27more civilised Devil of modern times -
0:49:27 > 0:49:29the Devil as a gentleman, the polished Devil,
0:49:29 > 0:49:32the Devil as the equivalent to the debauched aristocrats
0:49:32 > 0:49:34or the confidence trickster
0:49:34 > 0:49:37that fits a smoother kind of society.
0:49:37 > 0:49:40And he's the Devil of today, he's the Devil of Bedazzled.
0:49:42 > 0:49:47Bedazzled was a comedy filmed at the height of the swinging '60s.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50Where Satan took the satirical form of Peter Cook,
0:49:50 > 0:49:53seen here mucking about on location with Dudley Moore.
0:49:53 > 0:49:56- What sort of things do you do to tempt people?- Nasty things.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59For example, if I was tempting you, I'd probably size you up
0:49:59 > 0:50:03and see you being of a portly build - forgive me saying that...
0:50:03 > 0:50:05Of course. Very nice.
0:50:05 > 0:50:09I'd come up to you with a cream bun and say, "Why don't you eat that?"
0:50:09 > 0:50:11Thus tempting you to eat the bun and get fat
0:50:11 > 0:50:14and fall into the sin of gluttony. It's tremendous work.
0:50:14 > 0:50:17Peter Cook's 1967 version of the Devil
0:50:17 > 0:50:22added to a movie tradition that was already over 70 years old.
0:50:22 > 0:50:26The Devil instantly became a figure in early cinema.
0:50:26 > 0:50:31There are movies featuring the Devil well before the turn of the century.
0:50:31 > 0:50:35Georges Melies, the French special effects wizard
0:50:35 > 0:50:38who was also a conjuror,
0:50:38 > 0:50:40depicted the Devil in several films.
0:50:40 > 0:50:43He was, I think, the first person to make a film of Faust,
0:50:43 > 0:50:46which has been made every 20 minutes ever since.
0:50:46 > 0:50:48DRAMATIC PIANO MUSIC
0:50:50 > 0:50:53Very often, the cinema treated the Devil as a largely comic figure.
0:50:53 > 0:50:58It was only occasionally that it touched upon something more sinister.
0:50:59 > 0:51:01Made in 1943, The Seventh Victim
0:51:01 > 0:51:05suggested Satanists might be on the loose in downtown Manhattan.
0:51:05 > 0:51:09You're a poor, wretched group of people who have...
0:51:09 > 0:51:10taken the wrong turning.
0:51:10 > 0:51:12Wrong?
0:51:15 > 0:51:18Who knows what is wrong or right?
0:51:18 > 0:51:23If I prefer to believe in satanic majesty and power, who can deny me?
0:51:23 > 0:51:26What proof can you bring that good is superior to evil?
0:51:28 > 0:51:33But it wasn't until the late '60s that another film set in New York
0:51:33 > 0:51:37took the Devil and his followers to a genuinely disturbing level.
0:51:37 > 0:51:42Rosemary's Baby was a game-changer for all kinds of movies.
0:51:42 > 0:51:46It was a game-changer for horror films. It also made the Devil scary.
0:51:46 > 0:51:49The Devil is here on Earth and his worshippers,
0:51:49 > 0:51:53although they look like eccentric old cranks, are dangerous.
0:51:53 > 0:51:57In the early '70s, The Exorcist graphically told the story
0:51:57 > 0:52:00of a young American girl possessed by a demon.
0:52:00 > 0:52:05Box office takings were huge, as audiences queued up to be appalled.
0:52:05 > 0:52:06It was disgusting.
0:52:06 > 0:52:08Well, I wouldn't take my wife to go and see it.
0:52:08 > 0:52:11I just found it really horrible and had to come out.
0:52:11 > 0:52:12I couldn't take any more.
0:52:12 > 0:52:15It was about the most horrifying film I've ever seen.
0:52:15 > 0:52:17- Really horrifying?- Yeah.
0:52:17 > 0:52:20It'll give a lot of people a lot of ideas.
0:52:20 > 0:52:23What was the Church's reaction to The Exorcist?
0:52:23 > 0:52:26The Catholic Church was, on the whole, pretty favourable.
0:52:26 > 0:52:27Because?
0:52:28 > 0:52:31Because it spoke about...
0:52:31 > 0:52:33the presence of evil in the world
0:52:33 > 0:52:38and the way in which the Church has a place in...fighting that evil.
0:52:38 > 0:52:41Catholic priests... I mean, they're the cavalry in the piece.
0:52:41 > 0:52:43Absolutely.
0:52:45 > 0:52:48One of these children has been born of the Devil.
0:52:48 > 0:52:50Is it this one?
0:52:50 > 0:52:51One of these?
0:52:52 > 0:52:56Or the son of the United States Ambassador to Britain?
0:52:56 > 0:52:59The answer lies in the story of...
0:53:05 > 0:53:07The film crew relaxed when they could.
0:53:07 > 0:53:09Just what they needed to prepare them
0:53:09 > 0:53:12for the dark, tragic, surprising events that were to come.
0:53:15 > 0:53:20So, the Devil could be bone-chilling and bone-strengthening.
0:53:20 > 0:53:22But, if some have been keen to exploit him,
0:53:22 > 0:53:25the major Christian churches seem to have marginalised him,
0:53:25 > 0:53:29almost as if he is an uncomfortable relic -
0:53:29 > 0:53:31though he still can pop up in person.
0:53:31 > 0:53:33Exorcists certainly exist
0:53:33 > 0:53:37but, really, they don't figure largely in the life of the Church.
0:53:37 > 0:53:39That's not to say they're not important -
0:53:39 > 0:53:43it's just not central to what the Church is about.
0:53:43 > 0:53:46SCREECHING FROM LAPTOP
0:53:46 > 0:53:50This is one place where some people feel they can have
0:53:50 > 0:53:53a direct personal encounter with the Devil. It's an exorcism.
0:53:53 > 0:53:57Some of you have probably tuned in hoping you might see an exorcism
0:53:57 > 0:53:59but there's not much point showing any
0:53:59 > 0:54:01because they're basically all the same.
0:54:01 > 0:54:05Someone is told that they are possessed, they behave accordingly -
0:54:05 > 0:54:08bit of thrashing around, a lot of shouting -
0:54:08 > 0:54:10then the Devil appears, always talks...
0:54:10 > 0:54:13- LOW-PITCHED CROAKY VOICE: - ..in a voice like this.
0:54:13 > 0:54:17Never sounds like Joanna Lumley, for some reason.
0:54:17 > 0:54:22And, of course, this kind of thing has been going on for centuries.
0:54:22 > 0:54:26In the Bible, Jesus performs many exorcisms.
0:54:26 > 0:54:31Although, it doesn't mention shackling a girl to a chair.
0:54:31 > 0:54:35But this seems to be people's notion of what meeting the Devil
0:54:35 > 0:54:36would be like.
0:54:36 > 0:54:39It's a sort of...cultural cliche.
0:54:39 > 0:54:43Oh, and for what it's worth, next time you're sacrificing an animal
0:54:43 > 0:54:46- to the forces of darkness, don't use a tortoise. - TORTOISE GULPS
0:54:46 > 0:54:51Quite often, over the years, when I've been having fun playing Satan onstage,
0:54:51 > 0:54:53I've caught myself thinking,
0:54:53 > 0:54:57"Should I be treating the Devil as flippantly as this?"
0:54:57 > 0:55:00Because I know that there are many, many people out there
0:55:00 > 0:55:05for whom the Devil is unequivocally real and ever-present.
0:55:05 > 0:55:10And there is no denying that some people commit the most horrific acts
0:55:10 > 0:55:13while claiming to be under orders from Satan.
0:55:13 > 0:55:16Just as some people commit the most horrific acts
0:55:16 > 0:55:19while claiming to be combating Satan.
0:55:21 > 0:55:24I haven't set out to change anyone's mind about the Devil,
0:55:24 > 0:55:26just to tell his story.
0:55:26 > 0:55:31The story of how he started out very small and got very big.
0:55:31 > 0:55:32And then small again.
0:55:32 > 0:55:35But could he ever disappear?
0:55:36 > 0:55:39The Devil will always be with us, as long as we have
0:55:39 > 0:55:41a post-Christian culture with a lot of Christians in it,
0:55:41 > 0:55:44because he's so good to think with.
0:55:44 > 0:55:49You can use the Devil as a metaphor, as a personal bogey,
0:55:49 > 0:55:51as a joke.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54He's really useful. I guess that's why God created him.
0:55:54 > 0:55:57Do you think you could have God without the Devil?
0:55:57 > 0:55:58I think you could,
0:55:58 > 0:56:03but whether you could have a straightforward relationship
0:56:03 > 0:56:06between humans and God without the Devil
0:56:06 > 0:56:08is a problematic question.
0:56:08 > 0:56:12Yes, lots of the things that were ascribed to the Devil in the past,
0:56:12 > 0:56:15like illness or disability or lightning,
0:56:15 > 0:56:19all of these things - we know what causes them now, and we know it isn't the Devil.
0:56:19 > 0:56:22Science has produced quite a lot of answers for things
0:56:22 > 0:56:24but there are still things that puzzle us.
0:56:24 > 0:56:28If you ask if people believe in the Devil they say no. If you ask them if they believe
0:56:28 > 0:56:31there's such a thing as evil, they will often say yes.
0:56:31 > 0:56:36Do you think that without the definition of evil
0:56:36 > 0:56:38that the Devil supplies,
0:56:38 > 0:56:41it would be hard to give a shape to God?
0:56:41 > 0:56:47No, because the Church teaches that God existed before the Devil, that good existed before evil.
0:56:47 > 0:56:49A lot of us who don't believe in the Devil
0:56:49 > 0:56:51would feel we recognise evil when we see it -
0:56:51 > 0:56:53we'd be able to point at it.
0:56:53 > 0:56:57Did you think that the Devil provides an important face for evil?
0:56:57 > 0:57:00No, I think he provides an important excuse for evil,
0:57:00 > 0:57:02and that's much worse.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05And one of the dangers with the way that the Devil
0:57:05 > 0:57:09has tended to be developed in all the religions
0:57:09 > 0:57:11in which he is a major force
0:57:11 > 0:57:14is that he is used, as it were, as a final answer,
0:57:14 > 0:57:18to questions that I believe we should never stop asking.
0:57:18 > 0:57:21That may well be true
0:57:21 > 0:57:25but, in a sense, the Devil is one of the heroes of our civilisation
0:57:25 > 0:57:29because without him, great monotheistic religions would have struggled
0:57:29 > 0:57:31to make sense of evil and suffering.
0:57:31 > 0:57:35Without him, we'd have missed out on a lot of great literature
0:57:35 > 0:57:37and great art.
0:57:37 > 0:57:41And without the Devil, we wouldn't have had an alibi.
0:57:43 > 0:57:44How was that?
0:57:44 > 0:57:46Yeah, yeah, not bad.
0:57:46 > 0:57:49- I liked the bit about me being a hero.- Oh, good. Yeah, yeah.
0:57:49 > 0:57:51- Only, um...- What?
0:57:51 > 0:57:53Well, quite a lot of it seemed to be suggesting
0:57:53 > 0:57:56that I might be fictional.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58- I found that a bit unsettling. - Oh, I'm sorry.
0:57:58 > 0:58:02- Ooh, by the way, you know when you made me sign that contract?- Yeah?
0:58:02 > 0:58:04- 16 years ago?- Yeah? - You walked off with my pen.
0:58:04 > 0:58:08I am ALWAYS doing that. Still got Piers Morgan's biro.
0:58:32 > 0:58:35Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:58:35 > 0:58:39E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk