0:00:02 > 0:00:05It's simply a camera on you, a camera on me, and a conversation.
0:00:05 > 0:00:09- Do you...?- Now, Robin, leave it. Now, leave it.- I hadn't started yet.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12If you haven't started, then I beg of you not to start.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15You can be the greatest interviewer in the world,
0:00:15 > 0:00:16but if the person opposite you
0:00:16 > 0:00:19doesn't want to speak to you, you've had it!
0:00:19 > 0:00:21I'm sorry, I'm fed up with this interview, really.
0:00:21 > 0:00:25You can't hammer them on the head and say, "You will speak to me!"
0:00:25 > 0:00:27It doesn't work that way.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30For the public to get something out of it,
0:00:30 > 0:00:33the interviewee does need to be challenged.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36I'm sorry, I'm going to be frightfully rude, but...I'm sorry.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38It's a straight yes or no...
0:00:38 > 0:00:41You can put the question, and I will give you an answer.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43And in fact, often needs to be challenged a lot.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47- I must beg of you...- We're not having a party political broadcast,
0:00:47 > 0:00:48we're having an interview,
0:00:48 > 0:00:51which must depend on me asking some questions occasionally.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53I've been interviewed in that way,
0:00:53 > 0:00:56and you feel you're on trial for your life.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58I think you're a great flirt.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04It's like when you're talking to somebody you like, and it's clicked.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08You had, "I liked talking to him, that one's clicked."
0:01:08 > 0:01:10You think, "Yes."
0:01:17 > 0:01:22Hello, good evening and welcome to Frost On Interviews.
0:01:22 > 0:01:26Over the last half century, the television interview has given us
0:01:26 > 0:01:30some of TV's most heart-stopping and memorable moments.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32And in my life, I've been lucky enough
0:01:32 > 0:01:34to interview some of the key personalities
0:01:34 > 0:01:39and politicians who have shaped our lives, and theirs, of course.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43If you think the world was surprised when Nixon resigned,
0:01:43 > 0:01:45wait till I whip Foreman's behind!
0:01:46 > 0:01:51You have total moral responsibility for all these people!
0:01:51 > 0:01:53Do you think, Mr Frost,
0:01:53 > 0:01:58that I spend my days prowling round the pigeonholes
0:01:58 > 0:02:05of the Ministry of Defence to look at the chart of each and every ship?
0:02:05 > 0:02:07If you do, you must be bonkers.
0:02:07 > 0:02:12It's still amazing to most people how you got through 28 years
0:02:12 > 0:02:15and came out of it without being bitter.
0:02:16 > 0:02:22Well, I would like to be bitter, but I have no time to be bitter.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24There is work to be done.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28Where the president can decide that it's in the best interest
0:02:28 > 0:02:32of the nation or something, and do something illegal.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38- By definition?- Exactly.
0:02:38 > 0:02:43It's fascinating to me how others approach the interview.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48That's our agenda. But what, for starters, is its enduring appeal?
0:02:48 > 0:02:52On the surface, after all, it's a very simple format.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56Two people sitting across from one another and having a conversation.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00But underneath, it's often a power struggle.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03A battle for the psychological advantage,
0:03:03 > 0:03:07with both sides trying to hold on to the initiative.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10So who, in the interview, does hold the power?
0:03:10 > 0:03:13The interviewer or the interviewee?
0:03:13 > 0:03:15I think it's the interviewer.
0:03:15 > 0:03:19The interviewer has all the equipment. I mean, it's all his.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22This is your stuff, these cameras, the lights, the producer,
0:03:22 > 0:03:26the make-up girl, all of this stuff belongs to you.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29I come here simply in a taxi that you sent for me.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33So there is a sense where the studio belongs to the interviewer.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37So the power is all with them.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40But it's not really quite as straightforward as that.
0:03:40 > 0:03:44It's a balance that's been shifting back and forth
0:03:44 > 0:03:48ever since the earliest days of the television interview.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54Good evening. This is our television operations room...
0:03:54 > 0:03:56Elected to parliament in 1950,
0:03:56 > 0:03:59Tony Benn participated in the very beginnings
0:03:59 > 0:04:01of the television interview.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04The interview, at heart, is a conversation
0:04:04 > 0:04:07in which the interviewer has got the opportunity
0:04:07 > 0:04:10to decide what he wants to ask, so he shapes the discussion.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13And so both sides of the argument, I've experienced.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17In our time, since 1950 to the present day,
0:04:17 > 0:04:21how has the interview markedly changed, if it has markedly changed?
0:04:21 > 0:04:24Well, in the old days, you'd hear interviews
0:04:24 > 0:04:26where the question would say,
0:04:26 > 0:04:30"Prime Minister, would you tell us again about your latest triumphs?"
0:04:30 > 0:04:33- Yes.- And that was flattery, that wasn't an interview at all.
0:04:33 > 0:04:39In the early 1950s, television was in its infancy.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41Few people could afford sets,
0:04:41 > 0:04:45and coverage of politics and elections was tightly controlled.
0:04:45 > 0:04:49And the leading politicians of the day regarded it with suspicion
0:04:49 > 0:04:50and distrust.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54I have come here not to talk to you,
0:04:54 > 0:04:58but just to enable me to see what are the conditions
0:04:58 > 0:05:02under which this thing they call TV
0:05:02 > 0:05:06is going to make its way in the world.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11You can see what it's like. The camera's hot, probing eye.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14These monstrous machines and their attendants,
0:05:14 > 0:05:18a kind of 20th century torture chamber, that's what it is.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22Erm...anything else you'd care to say about the coming election?
0:05:22 > 0:05:23No.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27However, Anthony Eden was one politician who saw
0:05:27 > 0:05:30the potential of television for political advantage,
0:05:30 > 0:05:33and used it in what is largely considered to be
0:05:33 > 0:05:36the first ever TV political interview.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38I would like to say first that, as an interviewer
0:05:38 > 0:05:42and as, what I hope you will believe to be an unbiased member
0:05:42 > 0:05:45of the electorate, I'm most grateful to Mr Anthony Eden
0:05:45 > 0:05:50for inviting me to cross question him on the present political issues.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53I would like too to feel that I am asking so far as possible,
0:05:53 > 0:05:57those questions, which you yourselves would like to ask in my place.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00Well, now, Mr Eden, with your very considerable
0:06:00 > 0:06:03experience of foreign affairs, it's quite obvious that
0:06:03 > 0:06:07I should start by asking you about the international situation today,
0:06:07 > 0:06:11or perhaps you would prefer to talk about home. Which shall it be?
0:06:11 > 0:06:13Well, you know, during this election...
0:06:13 > 0:06:17In fact, the interview was a party political broadcast.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20What is not widely known is that it was exhaustively rehearsed
0:06:20 > 0:06:24with the interviewer, Leslie Mitchell, coaching Eden.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28From the moment the Socialists got into power in 1945,
0:06:28 > 0:06:32- prices started rising.- Had you said that?- No, you said that.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34As a result, not surprisingly,
0:06:34 > 0:06:38Eden was very well prepared for the more challenging questions.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42It has often been said, in recent times, that the Conservative Party
0:06:42 > 0:06:46is a warmongering party. Is there a shred of truth in that or is there?
0:06:46 > 0:06:49I must say, I do resent that question.
0:06:50 > 0:06:57I could resent it very much, but I can't believe that the ordinary
0:06:57 > 0:07:00Socialist leaders really believe it themselves.
0:07:00 > 0:07:05But this deferential style of interviewing was turned on its head
0:07:05 > 0:07:08when ITN was launched in September 1955,
0:07:08 > 0:07:10and its young presenters began,
0:07:10 > 0:07:15for the first time, to ask political leaders more challenging questions.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18Good evening. A few minutes ago, the Prime Minister,
0:07:18 > 0:07:19the Right Honourable Harold Macmillan
0:07:19 > 0:07:21came to Television House...
0:07:21 > 0:07:25Robin Day was the one most associated for the punch-up.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29And made his reputation on that, and his tradition has continued
0:07:29 > 0:07:32and become standard in some programmes.
0:07:32 > 0:07:33Yes.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37How low does your personal rating, among your own supporters,
0:07:37 > 0:07:40have to go before you consider yourself a liability
0:07:40 > 0:07:41to the party you lead?
0:07:41 > 0:07:45- Well, popularity isn't everything... - I've been interviewed in that way.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48And you feel you're on trial for your life,
0:07:48 > 0:07:52and it doesn't bring the best out, but you can cope with it,
0:07:52 > 0:07:56obviously, but it creates a situation of winner and loser.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Do you not have any views on the subject yourself?
0:07:58 > 0:08:01Robin, why don't you turn to something where you'll get
0:08:01 > 0:08:05- a little more help?- Are you a candidate for the deputy leadership?
0:08:05 > 0:08:08- No. You know I'm not. - I don't know.- Don't you?
0:08:08 > 0:08:12I'm very grateful to have a...do you think that...?
0:08:12 > 0:08:15- Now, Robin, leave it. Now, leave it. - I hadn't started yet.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18Well, if you haven't started, then I beg of you not to start
0:08:18 > 0:08:20- and turn to something else. - I was about to.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23- You are, really? You promise? - Yes.- OK, all right.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26I think if you want to do an interview,
0:08:26 > 0:08:30you want to bring out how the person you're interviewing,
0:08:30 > 0:08:32how he thinks, or how she thinks about something.
0:08:32 > 0:08:37But to get that out, the person you're interviewing has to be
0:08:37 > 0:08:42relaxed and not feel this is a trap that is prepared for him.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45And you can, very difficult questions can be put,
0:08:45 > 0:08:49but if they're in a friendly way and they're relevant to the subject,
0:08:49 > 0:08:53then I think people will follow it and appreciate it.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56- In town tonight.- Stop!
0:08:58 > 0:09:00Once again we stop the mighty roar of London's traffic,
0:09:00 > 0:09:04and from the great crowds, we bring you some of the interesting people
0:09:04 > 0:09:07who've come by land, sea and air to be in town tonight.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12During the '50s, in the world of celebrity,
0:09:12 > 0:09:17as it would now be called, interviews were also deferential,
0:09:17 > 0:09:21often taking place on cosy sets, over a nice cup of tea.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23It's a proud moment for Picture Parade.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26Joan Crawford has joined us tonight to tell us
0:09:26 > 0:09:29a little about herself, to talk too about her new picture,
0:09:29 > 0:09:32and I should tell you, it's her first appearance on television ever.
0:09:32 > 0:09:36- Welcome, Joan.- Hi, Peter. How are you?- Not frightened, are you?
0:09:36 > 0:09:37Yes, I'm scared. Yes.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40Joan, there are thousands of things I want to ask you, and I don't know
0:09:40 > 0:09:44where to start, but first of all, I think, let's take glamour.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47Now will you tell me what is your recipe for it?
0:09:47 > 0:09:50- Just live.- Just live?- Yes.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54In the '60s, a new magazine programme,
0:09:54 > 0:09:56Late Night Line-Up, began.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00It was co-hosted by Joan Bakewell, one of a new breed
0:10:00 > 0:10:02of young, articulate interviewers.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06Tonight, BBC One paid tribute to a great scientist.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09But as a woman, she faced her own challenges.
0:10:09 > 0:10:10In the '60s, where I began,
0:10:10 > 0:10:13people noticed the fact you were a woman a good deal more,
0:10:13 > 0:10:16and people wrote to me about my clothes
0:10:16 > 0:10:20and my hair, they didn't engage with my arguments or anything at all.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23They wanted to know where I bought my frock.
0:10:23 > 0:10:29So, it was far more girly and flirty and inclined to be trivial.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31But I did suffer very much.
0:10:31 > 0:10:36There was a very nasty moment when I interviewed an American broadcaster
0:10:36 > 0:10:41called David Susskind, who was keen to score points.
0:10:41 > 0:10:43He was on a programme called Late Night Line-Up,
0:10:43 > 0:10:46He asked, as we began, whether I had children.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49Yes, I said, two small children, at home asleep.
0:10:49 > 0:10:52And he said, "And why aren't you at home looking after them?
0:10:52 > 0:10:56"What's a woman doing with a job in television?
0:10:56 > 0:11:00"You've no right on the screen, you're usurping the place of men."
0:11:00 > 0:11:03- That was quite shocking. - Yes.- It was a shock.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06Who most changed it, back in the '50s,
0:11:06 > 0:11:08'60s period and so on, who most changed the interview?
0:11:08 > 0:11:12The tradition in interviewing was that you didn't interrupt people.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15You must remember your manners and allow them to say
0:11:15 > 0:11:17what they wanted to say.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20John Freeman came along and blew that wide open.
0:11:20 > 0:11:24John Freeman's Face To Face was a pioneering format.
0:11:24 > 0:11:28First broadcast in 1959, then for a period of three years.
0:11:28 > 0:11:32An impressive array of individuals from all walks of life
0:11:32 > 0:11:36agreed to be interviewed. Freeman's incisive interviewing style
0:11:36 > 0:11:41was to have a huge influence on many people, including yours truly.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43..trying to find out what lies behind the mask.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46- Are you in the mood to come clean?- Yes, indeed.
0:11:46 > 0:11:48You're on your own, without your scriptwriters,
0:11:48 > 0:11:51- and you'll tell us the truth? - I'll try to, yes.
0:11:51 > 0:11:55Often broadcast live, stark lighting and extreme close-ups
0:11:55 > 0:11:59created the atmosphere of a psychoanalyst's couch.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02Have you any notion of what your anxiety is?
0:12:02 > 0:12:05Do you in fact get a kick out of your anxiety?
0:12:07 > 0:12:09I have to...anxiety, would you explain that a bit more?
0:12:09 > 0:12:13Well, something appears to me, even at the end of this conversation,
0:12:13 > 0:12:18to be eating you. You say that happiness is just ahead of you.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21There's something troubling you. I'd like to know what it is?
0:12:21 > 0:12:25I wouldn't expect happiness. I don't. I don't think that's possible.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29Freeman himself was rarely seen, just his shoulder.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32But like Robin Day, he dominated the discussion.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36John Freeman simply cascaded people with lots and lots
0:12:36 > 0:12:39of questions, putting them under enormous pressure,
0:12:39 > 0:12:41sometimes bringing them to the point of breakdown.
0:12:41 > 0:12:46Have you ever been with a person dying?
0:12:46 > 0:12:47Yes, only once.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49- Do you remember that?- Hmm.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51Someone very close to you?
0:12:52 > 0:12:55- Did it make a vivid impression? - It did, yes, yes.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01- Is that the only time you've seen a person dead?- Only once, yes.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07Let's go right back to your childhood.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10John Freeman's Face To Face interviews
0:13:10 > 0:13:14were groundbreaking in their time.
0:13:14 > 0:13:16I mean, reducing men to tears,
0:13:16 > 0:13:19which had never been done on television before.
0:13:19 > 0:13:20Fantastic honesty.
0:13:20 > 0:13:25People would answer questions that were put to them,
0:13:25 > 0:13:29absolutely straightforwardly, and with rigorous honesty.
0:13:29 > 0:13:33And that was very thrilling at the time, because it suggested
0:13:33 > 0:13:37an entirely new approach to interviewing
0:13:37 > 0:13:42and personal relationships. It was shocking and wonderful to watch.
0:13:42 > 0:13:47For better or worse, you've become the symbol now of Negro emancipation
0:13:47 > 0:13:48in the Southern states.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51Are you an adequate symbol? Do you feel that you're adequate?
0:13:51 > 0:13:58It is never easy for one to accept the role of symbolism
0:13:58 > 0:14:04without going through constant moments of self-examination,
0:14:04 > 0:14:08and I must confess that there are moments when I begin to wonder
0:14:08 > 0:14:15whether I am adequate or whether I'm able to face all of the challenges
0:14:15 > 0:14:20and even the responsibilities of this particular position.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24Face To Face was to become a landmark on British television,
0:14:24 > 0:14:26and John Freeman set the standard
0:14:26 > 0:14:29for the personal personality interview.
0:14:29 > 0:14:32In America, since the early '50s, the talk show there
0:14:32 > 0:14:38had become very popular, with hosts such as Jack Paar, Steve Allen,
0:14:38 > 0:14:41and Johnny Carson attracting millions of viewers
0:14:41 > 0:14:43to their late night shows.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45On both sides of the Atlantic,
0:14:45 > 0:14:51seeing celebrities talk about their lives had become a television event.
0:14:51 > 0:14:54"To David, a box of smile."
0:14:54 > 0:14:57We give him a lot of gear, he throws it away afterwards.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03You'll regret it. Still looking for his Picassos.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07See, get it? Get it?!
0:15:07 > 0:15:09LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:15:17 > 0:15:20It's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25When I was a child, I would watch you and then Michael Parkinson,
0:15:25 > 0:15:29and I always thought that there was something magical
0:15:29 > 0:15:31about the kind of guests that you had.
0:15:31 > 0:15:37Seeing famous people on television being themselves was a treat.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40It was unusual. "Oh, my goodness, there's Gene Kelly."
0:15:40 > 0:15:46You know. And you would, you would stare and think, "Wow."
0:15:46 > 0:15:49- There weren't many, there weren't many outlets.- Yes.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51So there weren't many occasions
0:15:51 > 0:15:54when you even knew what their real voice was like.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58'Michael Parkinson's talk show began in 1971.
0:15:58 > 0:16:03From the start, he understood there was an unwritten agreement
0:16:03 > 0:16:05between himself and his subjects.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09And what's the ideal relationship basically between interviewer
0:16:09 > 0:16:12- and interviewee?- Well, I think it's...- It's consensual?
0:16:12 > 0:16:17It's about understanding the need that both have.
0:16:17 > 0:16:22I mean, in our area, the talk show, they're on the show,
0:16:22 > 0:16:25not because they love you but because they've got something to flog.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28And their understanding must be the better they relate to you,
0:16:28 > 0:16:30the better they flog it.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32- Yeah.- And as far as I'm concerned,
0:16:32 > 0:16:36I am there to make sure that all the interview is not about that at all,
0:16:36 > 0:16:39that I give it a mention, but that what I want from them is a story.
0:16:39 > 0:16:43And so that's the deal and it seems to me to be a fair deal.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46You must be, come to think of it,
0:16:46 > 0:16:48- the richest man I've interviewed. - You're kidding!
0:16:49 > 0:16:51You've had Crosby here!
0:16:51 > 0:16:55And he sends care packages to Paul Getty.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:16:59 > 0:17:01You know, you're...
0:17:01 > 0:17:06I think that the onus is on the interviewer
0:17:06 > 0:17:08to actually create a situation whereby the person
0:17:08 > 0:17:11walking down the stairs or walking onto the set or you're opposite,
0:17:11 > 0:17:13is in the mood to speak to you.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17And I think that can be created best of all by them
0:17:17 > 0:17:19feeling that you at least have paid them
0:17:19 > 0:17:22the compliment of researching them properly and knowing about them.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25But like when I saw all of those people come to see George,
0:17:25 > 0:17:29go see George to get beat, and they all paid to get in,
0:17:29 > 0:17:31that's the thing, they paid to get in,
0:17:31 > 0:17:34and I said, "This is a good idea!"
0:17:34 > 0:17:39And right away I start talking, "I am the greatest! I am beautiful!
0:17:39 > 0:17:43"If you talk jive you'll fall in five! I cannot lose!"
0:17:43 > 0:17:48In America they got old saying. They said, "The nigger talks too much!"
0:17:48 > 0:17:51The thing about Ali was I was lucky, and you were lucky too,
0:17:51 > 0:17:55in the sense that we were doing a talk show when he was around.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58And he was the most extraordinary human being I've ever met.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00- I don't know what you think... - Yeah.
0:18:00 > 0:18:01He was an extraordinary man.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04But what kind of sport is it, can it be, where a guy,
0:18:04 > 0:18:08- where a guy goes in a ring... - What kind of sport is a car... - ..and gets his jaw broke?
0:18:08 > 0:18:11Watch your handling. What kind of sport is this,
0:18:11 > 0:18:13when a guy gets in a damn car in your country,
0:18:13 > 0:18:18and go around a damn track, and hit a pole and he burn up?!
0:18:18 > 0:18:21What kind of sport is that? And a bunch of fools go to watch it!
0:18:21 > 0:18:26I don't see no black folks out there going 900 million mile, rrr, boom!
0:18:26 > 0:18:29'Also, I mean I was there, like you again,'
0:18:29 > 0:18:34where I charted from my first interview in 1971 to my last in '82,
0:18:34 > 0:18:36the lifespan, in a sense, of his career.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39He was a contender when I met him,
0:18:39 > 0:18:42he went to world champion and became heavily politicised
0:18:42 > 0:18:44and then, the last interview I did,
0:18:44 > 0:18:48he showed the first signs of that terrible illness that,
0:18:48 > 0:18:50that in the end, destroyed him.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52And you've seen what can happen to fighters?
0:18:52 > 0:18:55You've seen those shambling wrecks that go around.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57You see them at every boxing occasion.
0:18:57 > 0:19:01What people are frightened of is they don't want that to happen to you.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03- What, be a shambling wreck? - That's right. Yeah.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05I'm a long ways from being a shambling wreck.
0:19:05 > 0:19:07I'm not suggesting you are now,
0:19:07 > 0:19:10I'm saying that's what they're frightened might happen.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12'It's not often you get that chance
0:19:12 > 0:19:14'to encapsulate a man's life'
0:19:14 > 0:19:16in your, in your work
0:19:16 > 0:19:19and certainly one as tragic as his has become.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22And I think also too that you then take the talk show
0:19:22 > 0:19:25into the showbiz interview, into a different area.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28And that was always, I thought, the best part of it,
0:19:28 > 0:19:33when you could actually, on the basic premise of the talk show,
0:19:33 > 0:19:37move it into an area where you affected people's perceptions
0:19:37 > 0:19:42of other people and informed them about something that was important.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44Woody Allen, that was an interesting experience.
0:19:44 > 0:19:49Occasionally, you meet somebody who tries to lay down the rules about the interview,
0:19:49 > 0:19:52through his agent or himself or say, "You can't talk about this."
0:19:52 > 0:19:55And my view and I'm sure your view has always been
0:19:55 > 0:19:58you tell them what, what you're going to talk about.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00You can't be restricted.
0:20:00 > 0:20:04Is it the case you can't see one of your children now and the other one you can?
0:20:04 > 0:20:06Is that the silly topsy-turvy manner of it all?
0:20:06 > 0:20:09Yeah, why are you so interested in this?
0:20:09 > 0:20:12- Well, because...- I feel... - No, let me, let me explain to you...
0:20:12 > 0:20:16No, I feel you have a morbid interest in this subject. Why?
0:20:16 > 0:20:19'If somebody like Allen had actually had his career threatened
0:20:19 > 0:20:23'by the affair he had with his daughter-in-law and then married her,
0:20:23 > 0:20:25'then I think that's fair.'
0:20:25 > 0:20:29There was an awkwardness about the interview from that point on,
0:20:29 > 0:20:33but nonetheless we did it, I think it was a good interview, I think it worked.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35He didn't like it, his agent didn't like it,
0:20:35 > 0:20:37but you can't please them all the time.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41Well, I think you can certainly be an actor and not be a movie star.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45- Well, but you are a movie star. - Yes.- by choice?
0:20:45 > 0:20:47Er, seemingly.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50- So, you've got a problem?- Yeah.
0:20:50 > 0:20:51NERVOUS LAUGHTER
0:20:51 > 0:20:56- And it seems one that's not going to be resolved on this show either.- No.
0:20:56 > 0:21:01My view has always been they've got more to lose than I have,
0:21:01 > 0:21:04in a sense of, do you do the show or not?
0:21:04 > 0:21:07- Yeah.- I don't care, frankly. They ought to.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Melvyn Bragg's arts programme, The South Bank Show,
0:21:13 > 0:21:17took a different approach. Starting in 1978, for Melvyn,
0:21:17 > 0:21:21it wasn't just about the interviewees themselves,
0:21:21 > 0:21:26but how their personalities shape their work.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28What are you looking for in an interview?
0:21:28 > 0:21:33Well, you're looking for somebody that is telling the truth
0:21:33 > 0:21:36about their work as near as is possible.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40- I think you've got to know the subject thoroughly.- Yes.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44You know this, you did this, and people know if you don't.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47You just have to make a little slip and they'll say,
0:21:47 > 0:21:51"He hasn't read after the first chapter," or they'll say,
0:21:51 > 0:21:54"He's only seen those paintings, he hasn't seen those paintings."
0:21:54 > 0:21:58And they know because we're talking to clever people!
0:21:58 > 0:22:01What I try to do is to know as much as I can about it,
0:22:01 > 0:22:03and then give the appearance that I'm just winging it
0:22:03 > 0:22:10as I go along and just trying to establish a situation
0:22:10 > 0:22:16in which people feel they can talk about themselves and about their work
0:22:16 > 0:22:19without embarrassment and as truthfully as possible.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25- Now, the Francis Bacon interview was...- It worked quite well.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28And he's a wonderful talker and I love talking to him.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31Well, I've been here for years, about 23 years or more.
0:22:31 > 0:22:36Started at his studio at 8.30 or nine o'clock
0:22:36 > 0:22:41and he had a row of champagne bottles, cold,
0:22:41 > 0:22:43ready for us and the crew.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45Well, you know, it'd been bad manners.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47Then we went around the restaurant,
0:22:47 > 0:22:51where we had a proper meal, with a drink, with the restaurant full.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55That was fine. Then they cleared the restaurant and had another meal
0:22:55 > 0:22:58with just the two of us to film. It was about four o'clock by then.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01And there was a swirl going on in my head
0:23:01 > 0:23:04and I was just about holding to the questions.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07- You're not interested in fantasy, are you?- No, not in the least.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10- Neither am I, not in the slightest. - I'm not interested in fantasy.
0:23:10 > 0:23:14- No.- I'm interested in reality. - And what's reality?
0:23:14 > 0:23:17- Let's get this... - Reality is what exists.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19Are you real?
0:23:19 > 0:23:22- I...- To me you're real. There you are.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25There you are, Melvyn Bragg. You are absolutely real to me.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29And so it got drunker and drunker, and I thought, funnier and funnier.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33But I also thought, or I think I thought...
0:23:33 > 0:23:38that this is OK, this is what Francis is really like.
0:23:38 > 0:23:43But I want to be able to remake in another medium
0:23:43 > 0:23:49the reality of, of an image that, that, that excites me.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56- Cheerio.- Cheerio, Francis.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58So, I saw it in the cutting room.
0:23:58 > 0:24:01I rang him up and said, "Look, Francis, we're drunk.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04"But it's good and it doesn't let you down.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07"I mean, I've got egg on my face, but it doesn't let you down."
0:24:07 > 0:24:10And something you said is very important as well.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13You said, "It isn't the questions, it's the answers."
0:24:13 > 0:24:16And my questions were ooh-ooh, his answers were terrific.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18So, I said, "I'd like to show these bits."
0:24:18 > 0:24:20"Well, darling, do what you want."
0:24:20 > 0:24:23So, that was that, so we showed it and it was good,
0:24:23 > 0:24:27it's good about Francis Bacon, and it explains, says a lot about Francis Bacon.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30I'm profoundly optimistic about nothing.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33- I don't think you can be... - How can you be optimistic about nothing, Francis?
0:24:33 > 0:24:38- I can be.- Why? - Just existing for a moment.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40Existing today makes me optimistic.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43- Optimistic about what?- Nothing.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45I'm optimistic about nothing.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49If you know their work and made it your business to know their work, you have an idea,
0:24:49 > 0:24:54you have as good an idea as you can get as to whether they're really telling you something,
0:24:54 > 0:24:57not necessarily new, but something important.
0:24:57 > 0:25:01If they say something new, well that's a bonus really.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05I did four hours of television with Olivier, two two-hour programmes.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07He was very generous, he was very funny.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11How did you set about becoming a professional actor?
0:25:11 > 0:25:14I was always the damnedest fool, you know.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17I'd always spoil something.
0:25:17 > 0:25:22When I got the chance I would giggle until they had to fire me.
0:25:22 > 0:25:26Now, I was starving, and I hadn't got that much, you know,
0:25:26 > 0:25:29hadn't got any sense at all!
0:25:29 > 0:25:32I don't know how I survived it at all,
0:25:32 > 0:25:35I don't know how I'm sitting here with you there.
0:25:35 > 0:25:40I just don't know, because I was a twerp, if ever there was one.
0:25:40 > 0:25:41'It's exactly like'
0:25:41 > 0:25:43when you're talking to somebody you really like
0:25:43 > 0:25:45and you know it's clicked.
0:25:45 > 0:25:46That's as near as I can get to it.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49"I like talking to him, that one's clicked."
0:25:49 > 0:25:51And there's a click, you think,
0:25:51 > 0:25:55"Yes, he's telling, she's telling the truth and so am I,"
0:25:55 > 0:25:58and that's worth getting that, that's it.
0:25:58 > 0:26:02The Dennis Potter interview was obviously very difficult
0:26:02 > 0:26:04and challenging to do, you know,
0:26:04 > 0:26:06because he was so near death, and so on.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09Did that give it a great, I don't know,
0:26:09 > 0:26:13sense of a frisson or a sense of responsibility for you?
0:26:13 > 0:26:15Well, both.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18we'd stripped the studio bare because I wanted it
0:26:18 > 0:26:21to be a bare television studio - cameras, lights, that was all.
0:26:21 > 0:26:22Oh.
0:26:23 > 0:26:27I'll only need it when... If there is any spasms, so...
0:26:27 > 0:26:30- Do you want me to have it? - I should put it out of sight, yeah.
0:26:30 > 0:26:31Melvyn can pass it to you.
0:26:31 > 0:26:36'Every stage, you were looking at a man in pain,'
0:26:36 > 0:26:39who knew he was dying, who was determined to talk about it.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42And he talked about it in a most exalting terms, which was
0:26:42 > 0:26:46another clutch at your throat because you hadn't expected that.
0:26:46 > 0:26:50But the most difficult thing of all in that interview,
0:26:50 > 0:26:51once we got going, was this -
0:26:51 > 0:26:54you know you can do a good interview in seven minutes
0:26:54 > 0:26:56if you know it's seven minutes.
0:26:56 > 0:27:00You can do a good interview in 30 minutes, whatever the time is.
0:27:00 > 0:27:02With Dennis, I'd no idea of the time.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05The doctor said, "It'll be about 25 minutes."
0:27:05 > 0:27:08Dennis thought he might make 35 or 40 minutes.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10It turned out to be 70 minutes.
0:27:10 > 0:27:13But you never quite knew when he was going to say, "That's enough."
0:27:13 > 0:27:15So you never quite knew
0:27:15 > 0:27:18whether you were asking the right questions early enough.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21- Or questions you save for the end.- Yeah.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23- You didn't know when to ask them. - Or how to build it.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26- I mean, any good interview's got to build.- Yeah.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29And I didn't know, so I was trying to manage that and so I was really
0:27:29 > 0:27:33concentrating on doing the job probably harder than I've ever done.
0:27:33 > 0:27:39I've got a GP in Ross who has so gently and carefully led me
0:27:39 > 0:27:44to a balance between pain control and mental control where I can work,
0:27:44 > 0:27:46believe me, with a passion I've never felt.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49I feel I can write anything at the moment.
0:27:49 > 0:27:50I feel I can fly with it.
0:27:50 > 0:27:55I feel like I can really communicate what I am about
0:27:55 > 0:27:59and what I feel, and what the world ought to know.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01Did you learn something about,
0:28:01 > 0:28:03well, about life and death?
0:28:04 > 0:28:08Well, I think what I learned from Dennis Potter,
0:28:08 > 0:28:11and I think a lot of people got this,
0:28:11 > 0:28:15was that we think of very old age, or we think of dying,
0:28:15 > 0:28:22as an enfeeblement, a draining away, a lessening of life, it's over, let it go -
0:28:22 > 0:28:24and he turned it on its head!
0:28:25 > 0:28:26He said, "No!
0:28:26 > 0:28:31"I know I'm seeing this blossom outside my window for the last time."
0:28:32 > 0:28:37Last week, looking at it through the window when I'm writing,
0:28:37 > 0:28:39it is the whitest, frothiest,
0:28:39 > 0:28:44blossomest blossom that there ever could be, you know.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48The nowness of everything is absolutely wondrous
0:28:48 > 0:28:51and if people could see that, you know...
0:28:51 > 0:28:54There's no way of telling you, you have to experience it.
0:28:54 > 0:28:59The fact is that if you see the present tense,
0:28:59 > 0:29:05boy do you see it and boy can you celebrate it, you know?
0:29:05 > 0:29:08And you think, yes, he's bringing to bear the fact there are
0:29:08 > 0:29:14some things, even in this dying stage that are magnificent,
0:29:14 > 0:29:16because it's to do with life.
0:29:16 > 0:29:21And I think that shook people, in the sense of moving them
0:29:21 > 0:29:26to understanding and to sympathy, to, well, all the things you are.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31For many years, politicians have been getting to grips
0:29:31 > 0:29:34with the challenges of the television interview.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37By the time Margaret Thatcher came to power in 1979,
0:29:37 > 0:29:39they had refined their technique,
0:29:39 > 0:29:43some of them even playing the interviewers at their own game.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46- But...- One moment, you asked the most fundamental thing.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48- Well, I know, but... - I must beg of you.
0:29:48 > 0:29:52we're not having a party political broadcast, we're having an interview
0:29:52 > 0:29:55- which must depend on me asking some questions occasionally. - Yes, indeed.
0:29:55 > 0:29:58You asked what I know you call the gut question.
0:29:58 > 0:29:59Right, It's gone to the gut.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02It's gone to the jugular. Let me finish it.
0:30:02 > 0:30:05She said herself, in an interview, actually, that your policies
0:30:05 > 0:30:09would destroy everything that she'd tried to build up.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12- She's not pouring the champagne this morning, is she?- Brian...
0:30:12 > 0:30:15Her close friends are delighted to think you're going to take her job.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18Is this an interview about my views or yours?
0:30:18 > 0:30:21Let me just get a word in edgeways, if you will forgive me!
0:30:21 > 0:30:22All right, certainly, certainly.
0:30:22 > 0:30:24The public on this issue,
0:30:24 > 0:30:27with regards to the future of the Royal Navy, believe you,
0:30:27 > 0:30:30a transient, here today and - if I may say so -
0:30:30 > 0:30:32- gone tomorrow politician... - This is very...
0:30:32 > 0:30:35..than an officer of many years' experience.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38I'm sorry, I'm fed up with this interview really, it's ridiculous.
0:30:38 > 0:30:40Well, thank you, Mr Nott.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43Did you enjoy aggressive interviews more than softer interviews
0:30:43 > 0:30:47- because it was more of a challenge? - Yes, I think so.
0:30:47 > 0:30:52Yes, I mean, you've got to realise that this is a gladiatorial conflict.
0:30:52 > 0:30:53The interviewer's out to get you.
0:30:53 > 0:30:57Not to let you put over your case,
0:30:57 > 0:30:59not to let you appeal to a wider audience,
0:30:59 > 0:31:04to try and puncture or reveal things that they think need revealing.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06So, it's gladiatorial.
0:31:06 > 0:31:10Now, the way to deal with that is to be well prepared
0:31:10 > 0:31:13and to be well prepared is to know what you want to say.
0:31:13 > 0:31:18I used to have the answers written down before I went on the programme.
0:31:18 > 0:31:24And the trick was to know how to adjust his questions to my answers.
0:31:24 > 0:31:27- Right.- And you could always tell when I was having trouble,
0:31:27 > 0:31:32because I would say, "You've asked me the wrong question. you should have asked me this."
0:31:32 > 0:31:35Then I would immediately give the answer!
0:31:35 > 0:31:39Do you find many Conservatives in your travels around the country
0:31:39 > 0:31:41who think that Mrs Thatcher ought to go?
0:31:41 > 0:31:44You're not going to carve me up the way you tried to carve Ken up!
0:31:44 > 0:31:48I am not in the business of trying to undermine Mrs Thatcher's position.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51- I didn't suggest you were!- Yes, you did, that's what you're on about.
0:31:51 > 0:31:54You want to try and undermine the leader of this party in this conference!
0:31:54 > 0:32:00Of the then regular figures of Robin Day, Brian Walden
0:32:00 > 0:32:04and so on were around, was there one of those that you found
0:32:04 > 0:32:06more fruitful to be interviewed by?
0:32:06 > 0:32:10Or is it in your hands, really, to make any interview work?
0:32:10 > 0:32:13Yes, the word "fruitful" is not one I would have...
0:32:13 > 0:32:14HE LAUGHS
0:32:14 > 0:32:17I mean, these guys are out to get you.
0:32:17 > 0:32:21They're not friends, they're not there to help you,
0:32:21 > 0:32:25they are there to make news and to reveal what often you don't want to have revealed.
0:32:25 > 0:32:29They want to get at what they think is the truth.
0:32:29 > 0:32:33And, I mean, both the two you mentioned were very formidable.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36No, I mean, you know, you keep your wits about you.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39It might be the case that, in private,
0:32:39 > 0:32:41you will have a lusty argument,
0:32:41 > 0:32:44and you will listen to other people's opinions,
0:32:44 > 0:32:48but you never come over in public like that, ever!
0:32:48 > 0:32:52You come over as being someone who one of your backbencher's said
0:32:52 > 0:32:57is, "Slightly off her trolley. Authoritarian. Domineering..."
0:32:57 > 0:33:01Brian, if anyone's coming over as domineering in this interview, it's you.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04Yes, you're very domineering at the moment.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07Now, let's deal with the authoritarian thing quietly.
0:33:07 > 0:33:09No government has...
0:33:09 > 0:33:10'I think there is a tendency'
0:33:10 > 0:33:13among some interviewers to turn it into a pitched battle.
0:33:13 > 0:33:17One of the techniques that I've always thought of as yours
0:33:17 > 0:33:22and always deeply mistrusted, was the sort of personal charm,
0:33:22 > 0:33:26the relaxation and then, bang!
0:33:26 > 0:33:29Do you think that, in terms of the credibility of the Government
0:33:29 > 0:33:33and so on, the stonewall, the cover-up or whatever you call it
0:33:33 > 0:33:37over the Belgrano was, in retrospect, a mistake?
0:33:37 > 0:33:40No, I don't think it's a mistake.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44We had a very, very long and detailed debate.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47Everyone accepts that the Belgrano had to be sunk,
0:33:47 > 0:33:49at least I hope they do.
0:33:49 > 0:33:52- I was going to talk about the cover-up...- Cover-up about what?
0:33:52 > 0:33:55- Well, the cover-up of the facts... - What fact other than that?
0:33:55 > 0:33:59Well, the fact that it was going in a completely different direction,
0:33:59 > 0:34:02it wasn't, as Heath said, closing in.
0:34:02 > 0:34:03Do you know, ships do zigzag.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05Yeah, but it didn't zigzag.
0:34:05 > 0:34:09- But ships do change direction. - Yeah, but it didn't, though, did it?
0:34:09 > 0:34:10That ship did change direction!
0:34:10 > 0:34:13'Does aggression, in light of what we're saying,'
0:34:13 > 0:34:17an aggressive interviewer is often making a mistake by shutting
0:34:17 > 0:34:19people up more than opening them up, is he?
0:34:19 > 0:34:22I think that you've got to look at it case by case.
0:34:22 > 0:34:26I mean, if you take Jeremy Paxman, who's probably state of the art
0:34:26 > 0:34:30of the aggressive interviewer, I guess he's had significant success
0:34:30 > 0:34:35in actually sort of battering his way through in certain circumstances.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38I was entitled to express my views, I was entitled to be consulted...
0:34:38 > 0:34:39Did you threaten to overrule him?
0:34:39 > 0:34:42I was not entitled to instruct Derek Lewis
0:34:42 > 0:34:46- and I did not instruct him, and the truth of... - Did you threaten to overrule him?
0:34:46 > 0:34:50The truth of the matter is that Mr Marriott was not suspended.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52- I did not... - Did you threaten to overrule him?
0:34:52 > 0:34:56- I did not overrule Derek Lewis. - Did you threaten to overrule him?
0:34:56 > 0:35:00- I took advice on what I could do... - Did you threaten to overrule him?
0:35:00 > 0:35:02..scrupulously in accordance with that advice.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05- I did not overrule Derek Lewis. - Did you threaten to overrule him?
0:35:05 > 0:35:08- Mr Marriott was not suspended. - Did you threaten to overrule him?
0:35:08 > 0:35:12I have accounted for my decision to dismiss Derek Lewis...
0:35:12 > 0:35:13Did you threaten to overrule him?
0:35:13 > 0:35:16..in great detail before the House of Commons.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19'You have to be pretty resolute to take the same question'
0:35:19 > 0:35:23I think once with me nine times, as he was determined to try
0:35:23 > 0:35:28and get the particular answer he believed existed.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31In my case he, he didn't get it, it probably didn't exist.
0:35:31 > 0:35:34So he'll have his successes, but on the other hand
0:35:34 > 0:35:37I think, as I was saying about your techniques,
0:35:37 > 0:35:41they were exactly the opposite but they were just as dangerous.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44But whatever the technique, the confrontational style
0:35:44 > 0:35:48of interviewing was also making its way across into the entertainment world!
0:35:48 > 0:35:51You'd be surprised how sprightly I am!
0:35:51 > 0:35:53I...I'm hoping to find out!
0:35:54 > 0:35:58- You're blushing!- Yeah, well, you look like a million dollars!
0:35:58 > 0:36:00- Thanks! - Is that what it cost to get that?
0:36:00 > 0:36:01AUDIENCE: Oh!
0:36:01 > 0:36:02No, no, no...
0:36:02 > 0:36:05In 1989, Channel 4 chose a former barrister
0:36:05 > 0:36:08to front its new talk show.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11Clive Anderson Talks Back became renowned
0:36:11 > 0:36:14for Anderson's dry wit and no-nonsense manner.
0:36:15 > 0:36:19Clive, you were a barrister for 14 years.
0:36:19 > 0:36:22What is the qualities that you need for an interviewer
0:36:22 > 0:36:24that are different to a barrister?
0:36:24 > 0:36:28Well, I suppose the major difference is the speed.
0:36:28 > 0:36:31In court, you know, things proceed at a leisurely pace,
0:36:31 > 0:36:35quite often at the pace that a judge can write things down physically.
0:36:35 > 0:36:38So, I tend to speak very quickly anyway and I'm quite,
0:36:38 > 0:36:41in the ping pong of conversation, I tend to be quite quick.
0:36:41 > 0:36:44Now, that suits some interviewees and not others,
0:36:44 > 0:36:46but for all I think it does put a pressure on them.
0:36:46 > 0:36:48And they might blurt out something
0:36:48 > 0:36:51or come out with something that they hadn't planned to say,
0:36:51 > 0:36:54and that spontaneity, I think, can be good.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57It can go horribly wrong, but it can be good, as well.
0:36:57 > 0:36:59So, how old... You haven't got to 40 yet, have you?
0:36:59 > 0:37:01- No.- Is that a bit young to be writing an autobiography?
0:37:01 > 0:37:05Probably is, but then, Laurie Lee started his first autobiography
0:37:05 > 0:37:08- was about 11, you know, when he did it. - Yes, marvellous writer.
0:37:08 > 0:37:12But a great writer, that's true, he was a great writer, I knew there was something.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15- Barbed.- Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, you pig-eyed sack of shit.
0:37:15 > 0:37:16LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:37:16 > 0:37:19Right! I am off!
0:37:19 > 0:37:22You haven't had many rows really with people on television, have you?
0:37:22 > 0:37:24I've had a few.
0:37:24 > 0:37:29I got halfway through an interview with The Bee Gees and they actually left,
0:37:29 > 0:37:32which is... I don't know if it's happened to you...
0:37:32 > 0:37:35- Tended to abbreviate the interview somewhat.- Yes.
0:37:35 > 0:37:37Earlier on, in earlier years
0:37:37 > 0:37:41I had a bit of a kerfuffle with Jeffrey Archer, as well.
0:37:41 > 0:37:44- You're really catching on tonight, Clive.- Yes.
0:37:44 > 0:37:45Very fast.
0:37:45 > 0:37:46Yeah, thank you very much.
0:37:46 > 0:37:48LAUGHTER
0:37:48 > 0:37:50Didn't know you were a critic as well.
0:37:50 > 0:37:52There's no beginning to your talents.
0:37:52 > 0:37:56LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:37:56 > 0:38:00You've moved on to your writing, that's what your famous for...
0:38:00 > 0:38:03All the old jokes are the best ones, I've got to admit that.
0:38:03 > 0:38:04Yes, I've read your books.
0:38:04 > 0:38:06LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:38:06 > 0:38:08I was, I suppose, being fairly aggressive -
0:38:08 > 0:38:11- well ish, anyway - in the interview there,
0:38:11 > 0:38:14and I've had one or two times like that.
0:38:14 > 0:38:17I think the barrister in me comes out, because I forget,
0:38:17 > 0:38:20you see, having been in court, and in court you do suggest
0:38:20 > 0:38:23all sorts of things to people, like, "You, you killed him,"
0:38:23 > 0:38:26or, "You're lying, officer," or...
0:38:26 > 0:38:28But you've never actually said to a guest on television,
0:38:28 > 0:38:31"I demand the death penalty," or anything like that?
0:38:31 > 0:38:32No, not quite!
0:38:32 > 0:38:37But Clive Anderson's style of interview wasn't to everyone's taste.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40The celebrity publicists weren't happy with the interviewer
0:38:40 > 0:38:45getting almost as much attention as the stars they were trying to promote,
0:38:45 > 0:38:47and they were getting a mite nervous.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50- Uh-oh. I'm sorry. Hello. - Welcome, welcome.
0:38:50 > 0:38:54But when, in the mid '90s, a feisty American-born comedy writer
0:38:54 > 0:38:58took a fresh approach and moved the interview out of the studio,
0:38:58 > 0:39:01the celebrities and the publicists
0:39:01 > 0:39:05were briefly lulled into a false sense of security.
0:39:05 > 0:39:08I don't know what you were allowed, but I was allowed
0:39:08 > 0:39:09a ten minute interview, that's it.
0:39:09 > 0:39:13And part of the job would be to kind of seduce them
0:39:13 > 0:39:15into giving me three days.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17So, that was my challenge.
0:39:17 > 0:39:22Imelda, I had a ten-minute interview, so I flew all the way to the Philippines.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25I knew she didn't, she didn't like journalists,
0:39:25 > 0:39:29so I had Theo Fennell give me all his jewellery so she thought,
0:39:29 > 0:39:31"Wait a minute, this isn't a journalist."
0:39:31 > 0:39:33I also knew she liked, she liked women.
0:39:33 > 0:39:37And I was looking pretty good, so she kept me with her for three days.
0:39:37 > 0:39:41Many people still call me Meldy, don't they?
0:39:41 > 0:39:44- Yes, I won't call you Meldy. - I have not lost my childlike innocence!
0:39:44 > 0:39:47I see the little bit of Meldy in there somewhere...
0:39:47 > 0:39:48'And then just flattered her,'
0:39:48 > 0:39:50but kind of loved the story.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52She read me her poetry.
0:39:52 > 0:39:55She said, you know, she said when she was little girl that,
0:39:55 > 0:39:57she was, you know, she was a singer.
0:39:57 > 0:40:00And then I said, "Oh, Imelda, would you sing for me?"
0:40:00 > 0:40:02And she sang 18 songs, including Feelings.
0:40:04 > 0:40:08# Feelings
0:40:08 > 0:40:14# Oh, whoa, whoa, feelings
0:40:14 > 0:40:19# Oh, whoa, oh, feel you... #
0:40:20 > 0:40:22It was, it was just like hitting oil.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25She opened the treasure trove and then in the end said,
0:40:25 > 0:40:26"Do you wanna see the shoes?"
0:40:26 > 0:40:29Whereas if you would have walked in day one,
0:40:29 > 0:40:31- you'd never get up to that attic.- No.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33But I think we really bonded.
0:40:33 > 0:40:38And again, my job as an interviewer, unlike yours, was not to go,
0:40:38 > 0:40:41"Do you know you robbed from your country?"
0:40:41 > 0:40:42My show was called entertainment.
0:40:42 > 0:40:46- Other people didn't like me, let's be very clear. - Oh, no, no, I can't believe that.
0:40:46 > 0:40:48Really didn't like me.
0:40:48 > 0:40:49(Donald Trump hated me.)
0:40:49 > 0:40:51(Did he?)
0:40:51 > 0:40:54Do you have many people have that reaction?
0:40:54 > 0:40:56Very few I would think.
0:40:56 > 0:40:58I knew that was gonna be a failure.
0:40:58 > 0:41:00Those kind of narcissists don't like me.
0:41:00 > 0:41:02Don King hated me.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05I can tell before arrival it's not gonna work.
0:41:05 > 0:41:06Really?
0:41:06 > 0:41:10But if they're, if they have a little bit of, um...
0:41:10 > 0:41:14irony, uh, the ability to see why they're humorous,
0:41:14 > 0:41:17then it'll work, it's a match.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19But Donald Trump has neither.
0:41:19 > 0:41:21- Can we have a cup of tea? - Oh, so sorry, how rude.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24I know - you gotta teach this woman some manners.
0:41:25 > 0:41:27'I'd have to be with them for three days,
0:41:27 > 0:41:30'so in the edit we compressed it so it looked like
0:41:30 > 0:41:33'I just walked in their house and went to their fridge.'
0:41:33 > 0:41:35I didn't - we had dinner the night before.
0:41:35 > 0:41:39So, we were dating by the time the cameras went on.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42So, it looked like I was rude, which I shouldn't have done.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45I should have laid back a lot more.
0:41:45 > 0:41:48That suddenly I've got changed into another person, right?
0:41:48 > 0:41:51Because the drug I was taking, the slimming drug,
0:41:51 > 0:41:55I don't know what it did, so what was I doing even having it?!
0:41:55 > 0:41:57But I was 16 and didn't know any better.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00- And I remember...- You think this one injection made you crazy?
0:42:00 > 0:42:02I don't, I don't know whether it made me crazy,
0:42:02 > 0:42:03but all I can tell you is,
0:42:03 > 0:42:06I got so angry with Mum I nearly drew a knife on her.
0:42:06 > 0:42:10'The Duchess of York was like an eager puppy, you know,'
0:42:10 > 0:42:12'that kept jumping on my leg,'
0:42:12 > 0:42:15and I was sort of begging her to not be so revealing.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18'So, when we went to her bedroom
0:42:18 > 0:42:20'and she had yellow Post-Its on all her drawers'
0:42:20 > 0:42:23with the names of what was in the drawers,
0:42:23 > 0:42:26I said, "Do you wanna remove those?" And she didn't.
0:42:26 > 0:42:27Small pink t-shirts.
0:42:27 > 0:42:30Let's see if it's really... Oh, they are pink.
0:42:30 > 0:42:32- I know.- And are they white? They are white.
0:42:32 > 0:42:35'So, you're sort of going, "I'm about to hang you."'
0:42:35 > 0:42:37But I always say, "Is that OK?"
0:42:37 > 0:42:41And she said, "Yeah, fine," and then told really inappropriate stories.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45But, you know, you got it in front of you, you have to deal with it.
0:42:45 > 0:42:46- Yeah.- Yeah.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49Aren't you sad you could've had a great life if you knew then what you know now?
0:42:49 > 0:42:52I can't, I can't. You can't look back.
0:42:52 > 0:42:56I look back all the time and I, I'm miserable when I do.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58But I have to look forward now.
0:42:58 > 0:43:00And so if you say,
0:43:00 > 0:43:05"Gosh, you could have had such a really fantastic life," well...
0:43:06 > 0:43:09..yes, and I, and I blew it.
0:43:09 > 0:43:11Those were the days when nobody was looking at the edit,
0:43:11 > 0:43:15and before they knew it, it was on the television set.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17- So, nobody was watching. - Yeah.- Yeah.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20So, the initiative seemed to lie with the interviewers
0:43:20 > 0:43:24when Tony Blair swept to power in 1997.
0:43:24 > 0:43:29But New Labour brought with it a new ingredient in the interview game.
0:43:29 > 0:43:34I suppose there were always people who advised you as to how to tackle a difficult question.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37If you were going into an interview someone would say,
0:43:37 > 0:43:39"Don't forget this," or, "Try and bring this out,"
0:43:39 > 0:43:43which would be an adviser, a communications adviser.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47But then the term "spin doctor" came in and rather corrupted the whole process.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50The man attributed with causing the rise of spin
0:43:50 > 0:43:54is Blair's former media adviser, Alastair Campbell.
0:43:54 > 0:43:56I think the reason
0:43:56 > 0:44:00that the issue of "spin doctors", so-called, people like myself,
0:44:00 > 0:44:04became such an issue at the time that I was doing the job with Tony,
0:44:04 > 0:44:07was because I was doing the job at a time that the media age
0:44:07 > 0:44:11became a reality and the media was changing out of all recognition.
0:44:11 > 0:44:15If you were a top-flight politician,
0:44:15 > 0:44:17you have to think about so many things,
0:44:17 > 0:44:23that if in your diary three days down the track there is a big interview,
0:44:23 > 0:44:28you need somebody who's got part of his mind on that.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31Well, it's now our pleasure to welcome the man who arrived
0:44:31 > 0:44:33yesterday here at the Labour Party Conference,
0:44:33 > 0:44:36and we're going to be talking to him right now.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39- Prime Minister, welcome.- Thanks. - Top of the morning.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43And just beginning with yesterday's story, briefly, about...
0:44:43 > 0:44:45One of the stories about Iraq...
0:44:45 > 0:44:49- ALISTAIR CAMPBELL:- You see, if he was doing an interview with you -
0:44:49 > 0:44:51say on your Sunday morning programme -
0:44:51 > 0:44:53he would have expected me
0:44:53 > 0:44:58- to have thought about that probably a week in advance...- Yes.
0:44:58 > 0:45:00..and to have done him a note,
0:45:00 > 0:45:03which he'd have read on the Saturday. Probably.
0:45:03 > 0:45:07Sunday morning, often in the car on the way to the studio,
0:45:07 > 0:45:12- I would have been you in the car. - Right.- I would have been throwing him difficult questions.
0:45:12 > 0:45:16If there were difficult questions that we were worried about,
0:45:16 > 0:45:18he might have phoned Gordon Brown,
0:45:18 > 0:45:21Peter Mandelson, Charlie Falconer - somebody else -
0:45:21 > 0:45:24- and got a...- Yeah. - Just to get his brain in gear.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27So, you're throwing him the difficult questions
0:45:27 > 0:45:30and then he needs five or ten minutes just maybe to chill out on his own,
0:45:30 > 0:45:34then he'll go out, he's with you, and he's doing the interviews.
0:45:34 > 0:45:36Britain made it very clear - and so did the United States -
0:45:36 > 0:45:37in the 1980s,
0:45:37 > 0:45:40when Saddam started to use chemical weapons in the Iran War,
0:45:40 > 0:45:42that was totally unacceptable, so...
0:45:42 > 0:45:46But we still supplied him with weapons AFTER he'd used chemical weapons, didn't we?
0:45:46 > 0:45:50Well, there's a lot of dispute about that. I wasn't in government at the time.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53We prided ourselves, I think,
0:45:53 > 0:45:57on having anticipated every question.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00Usually, it would be obvious. It'd be whatever was big in the news at the time,
0:46:00 > 0:46:04whatever the big political issues were, whatever was coming up.
0:46:04 > 0:46:06But every now and again you'd just get a...
0:46:06 > 0:46:10A sort of left ball, left curveball, coming out of nowhere.
0:46:10 > 0:46:13And I can remember, again, one of yours, where you suddenly
0:46:13 > 0:46:17looked with that sort of lean-forward look that you do
0:46:17 > 0:46:21and Tony was sort of thinking, "What's coming next?"
0:46:21 > 0:46:25- And you just... You asked him if he prayed with George Bush.- Yeah.
0:46:25 > 0:46:28But both you and he are, are great...
0:46:28 > 0:46:30Greatly men of faith and so on.
0:46:30 > 0:46:32I mean, do you pray together?
0:46:32 > 0:46:34- Pray together?- Mm.
0:46:34 > 0:46:36How do you mean?
0:46:36 > 0:46:38We hadn't seen that one coming,
0:46:38 > 0:46:41and Tony did what John Prescott used to call his Bambi look.
0:46:41 > 0:46:42Oh, his...
0:46:42 > 0:46:45Where he's sort of slightly taken aback
0:46:45 > 0:46:47and then you could see the mind whirring,
0:46:47 > 0:46:50- and Tony's mind whirs pretty quickly.- Yeah.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53- I can't remember exactly what he said. It was basically "no", I think.- Yes.
0:46:53 > 0:46:57Do you say prayers together for peace, you and the President?
0:46:57 > 0:47:00Well, we don't say prayers together, no, but I'm sure he, in his way,
0:47:00 > 0:47:03hopes for peace and I hope for peace, too.
0:47:03 > 0:47:05For the public to get something out of it,
0:47:05 > 0:47:09the interviewee does need to be challenged a little bit.
0:47:09 > 0:47:12And, in fact, often needs to be challenged a lot.
0:47:12 > 0:47:15And you need that sense of the challenge
0:47:15 > 0:47:17being strong and being tough
0:47:17 > 0:47:19for the public then to see,
0:47:19 > 0:47:22"Well, this guy looks like he's thought it through.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24"He knows what he's talking about."
0:47:24 > 0:47:27And even if they don't agree with you at the end of it,
0:47:27 > 0:47:32at least they can see your arguments are being challenged and make
0:47:32 > 0:47:35a judgment as to whether you've thought it through.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38- There is no evidence Lord Ashcroft has done anything.- I'm not asking...
0:47:38 > 0:47:41- I have no reason to think he hasn't complied...- I'm asking...
0:47:41 > 0:47:46I'm asking for evidence you have at least been intellectually curious enough, in this current climate,
0:47:46 > 0:47:49to discover whether or not your Deputy Chairman
0:47:49 > 0:47:51is resident in this country for tax purposes!
0:47:51 > 0:47:54As you know, I'm a rather intellectually curious person.
0:47:54 > 0:47:56I have no reason to think...
0:47:56 > 0:47:59A lot of these interviews now, in footballing terms,
0:47:59 > 0:48:01they become 0-0 draws.
0:48:01 > 0:48:05The politician is trying to communicate something to the public.
0:48:05 > 0:48:09The interviewer is thinking, "It's my job to stop him doing that.
0:48:09 > 0:48:11"I want to take him down path A, path B or path C,
0:48:11 > 0:48:15"because I know that's where the politician doesn't want to go."
0:48:15 > 0:48:18The politician is thinking, "I don't particularly want to go down there."
0:48:18 > 0:48:22So, they both are operating from a defensive mindset.
0:48:22 > 0:48:24I think, for the public, it gets quite boring.
0:48:24 > 0:48:28It's a simple question! "Are you resident in Britain for tax purposes?"
0:48:28 > 0:48:32I will, of course, keep giving the same answer and that is my answer.
0:48:32 > 0:48:34- William Hague, thanks very much. - Thank you.
0:48:34 > 0:48:38So, it seems, in the modern political interview,
0:48:38 > 0:48:40we've come to something of a stalemate,
0:48:40 > 0:48:44where it's not clear who has the upper hand.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47Morning, folks. Welcome to the Daily Politics.
0:48:47 > 0:48:51From its studio just across the road from Parliament, Andrew Neil's
0:48:51 > 0:48:55Daily Politics show has been grilling politicians for the last eight years.
0:48:55 > 0:49:00I knew that the way you would reply to these questions would be playing the man rather than the bull.
0:49:00 > 0:49:03Well, you're the one playing the man, Andrew.
0:49:03 > 0:49:07- You didn't even have the grace... - I'm the one interviewing YOU.
0:49:07 > 0:49:10If you invite me on to your show, I'll answer your questions.
0:49:10 > 0:49:14You didn't even have the grace to tell me this is the kind of interview it was going to be!
0:49:14 > 0:49:18- Well...- More fool me.- All right, we'll leave it on that, then. Anita.
0:49:18 > 0:49:20You know, we've come a long way from the...
0:49:20 > 0:49:23The days of deference in this country,
0:49:23 > 0:49:25when interviewers in the 1950s
0:49:25 > 0:49:29would basically say, "So, Prime Minister, "what message do you have for a grateful nation?"
0:49:29 > 0:49:33Exactly. That was the '50s, wasn't it?
0:49:33 > 0:49:37- And has it changed...- But maybe the pendulum's gone too far the other way, David.
0:49:37 > 0:49:39Maybe it's just that almost every interview -
0:49:39 > 0:49:42and I include myself in this. I've made the same mistake.
0:49:42 > 0:49:44Almost interview we go at now is,
0:49:44 > 0:49:47"So, when did you stop beating your wife?"
0:49:47 > 0:49:50And the spin doctors have made that worse.
0:49:50 > 0:49:52The aggression came in.
0:49:52 > 0:49:55And aggression became almost the default position
0:49:55 > 0:49:57for interviewing politicians.
0:49:57 > 0:50:01Then the spin doctors came in to teach the politicians
0:50:01 > 0:50:03how to handle this aggression.
0:50:03 > 0:50:07But it actually made it worse, because the, the...
0:50:07 > 0:50:10They taught the politicians how not to answer the question,
0:50:10 > 0:50:12how to play for time.
0:50:12 > 0:50:16Techniques that meant they could get round the difficult questions,
0:50:16 > 0:50:19which made us more aggressive. You know,
0:50:19 > 0:50:21"Answer the question," we started to say.
0:50:21 > 0:50:25And I think that's what upset the viewers -
0:50:25 > 0:50:29they hate too many interruptions from people like me.
0:50:29 > 0:50:34They hate even more politicians not answering the question.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37And the first time you interviewed David Cameron,
0:50:37 > 0:50:38before he was Prime Minister,
0:50:38 > 0:50:41the Conservatives' spin doctors tried to...
0:50:41 > 0:50:44To reduce your range in that interview?
0:50:44 > 0:50:47Yes, they tried all sorts of things.
0:50:47 > 0:50:51And I teed it up saying, "Here are all the condit..."
0:50:51 > 0:50:53Cos I think viewers have a right to know
0:50:53 > 0:50:56the circumstances and the conditions
0:50:56 > 0:51:00- within which the interview was given.- I think that's absolutely vital.
0:51:00 > 0:51:03If ever someone says they won't discuss a subject,
0:51:03 > 0:51:06if you're going to go ahead with the interview,
0:51:06 > 0:51:08you've got to say that at the beginning.
0:51:08 > 0:51:13"I WOULD like to talk to you about Libya, but you've said, for reasons I don't understand, you won't."
0:51:13 > 0:51:16The Daily Politics has never interviewed David Cameron
0:51:16 > 0:51:19since he became party leader - it was difficult to arrange one -
0:51:19 > 0:51:23but today is the day, though his office made some rather strange conditions.
0:51:23 > 0:51:26It had to be outside. We had to be standing up.
0:51:26 > 0:51:30It would only be for five minutes, even though he kept us waiting for half an hour.
0:51:30 > 0:51:33We know our place. We're used to that sort of thing.
0:51:33 > 0:51:36In the end, as you will know, David, once you get them there,
0:51:36 > 0:51:40you're then in charge cos they can hardly walk off - and if they do, you've got a story.
0:51:40 > 0:51:44So, when he came out of the hotel, I jumped up onto the kerb,
0:51:44 > 0:51:48so I was then eye-to-eye with him.
0:51:48 > 0:51:53'And then I just thought, "I'll just keeping asking questions, cos he can hardly walk off!" '
0:51:53 > 0:51:55By cutting their inheritance tax,
0:51:55 > 0:52:00you'll give them ANOTHER advantage and you've already said social mobility's in decline!
0:52:00 > 0:52:02Well, I don't think that it's right to take away
0:52:02 > 0:52:0640% of people's savings and people's homes when they die. This is not...
0:52:06 > 0:52:08'And I could see the spin doctors
0:52:08 > 0:52:12'getting more and more angry off camera. But my own view is,'
0:52:12 > 0:52:17if spin doctors aren't angry, I'm not really doing my job.
0:52:17 > 0:52:20Do you regret calling supporters of grammar schools "delusional"?
0:52:20 > 0:52:24I think it's very important in politics to choose your words carefully.
0:52:24 > 0:52:27- Sometimes I may have been over-enthusiastic... - That wasn't careful.
0:52:27 > 0:52:30..in what I've said. But the message I really want...
0:52:30 > 0:52:33I get the message but do you regret calling them "delusional"?
0:52:33 > 0:52:38- I've chosen my words, as I've just said... I have chosen my words very carefully today, Andrew.- Right.
0:52:38 > 0:52:41Sometimes, you can get more out of somebody
0:52:41 > 0:52:45almost if you lull them into a false sense of security.
0:52:45 > 0:52:47And you're the master at doing that,
0:52:47 > 0:52:50and none of us almost do that any more.
0:52:50 > 0:52:53We... We're still too monotone.
0:52:53 > 0:52:58- I mean, we... I think everybody sees themselves as being a Jeremy Paxman.- Yeah.
0:52:58 > 0:53:01And I think sometimes, instead of saying,
0:53:01 > 0:53:04"I'm going to nail this politician -
0:53:04 > 0:53:07"he's taken a totally hypocritical position,"
0:53:07 > 0:53:11we need to say, "What should we find out tonight?
0:53:11 > 0:53:15- "What do we need to find out from this politician..."- Yes. - "..that he hasn't told us before?"
0:53:15 > 0:53:18And, as you know, it's human nature.
0:53:18 > 0:53:22I'm not going to open up to you if you're like... Like this.
0:53:22 > 0:53:26- Yes. Absolutely.- But I WILL open up to you if you say,
0:53:26 > 0:53:31- "Of course, the economic situation IS very difficult at the moment, isn't it, Prime Minister?"- Yes.
0:53:31 > 0:53:37And then they're much more likely to say, "Well, Andrew, actually, it's REALLY difficult."
0:53:37 > 0:53:40I think the one thing they do know - and I think it's only right -
0:53:40 > 0:53:43is they know we are not on their side.
0:53:45 > 0:53:47And like the political interview,
0:53:47 > 0:53:50the celebrity talk show has also come under the sway
0:53:50 > 0:53:53of publicists and PR agents.
0:53:54 > 0:53:58When I first started interviewing in the '60s, I mean it wasn't there.
0:53:58 > 0:54:00It really didn't exist.
0:54:00 > 0:54:03And then when I came back to doing a talk show in the '90s,
0:54:03 > 0:54:07I mean, God Almighty! I mean, it was like fighting through a thicket,
0:54:07 > 0:54:09you know, to get to a subject.
0:54:09 > 0:54:12But I took the view - and I think you might have done, too -
0:54:12 > 0:54:14I was detached from all that.
0:54:14 > 0:54:17I used to leave my producers and production staff to deal with all that.
0:54:17 > 0:54:22As far as I was concerned, I would make a judgment about what I could ask and what I couldn't,
0:54:22 > 0:54:24and it was nobody's business but my own.
0:54:24 > 0:54:28Stephen Fry, you... You amaze me. You do.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31You're like a Gordon Ramsay figure in my world.
0:54:31 > 0:54:32Oh, thanks(!)
0:54:32 > 0:54:34- Well, no, because... - No, sorry. Oh, thanks!
0:54:34 > 0:54:37'If you go on a talk show now...'
0:54:37 > 0:54:41the bargain is really that you're there to amuse.
0:54:41 > 0:54:45..all kinds of things everybody here knows that I am completely ignorant on.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48This happened to me on... By a journalist the other day.
0:54:48 > 0:54:52They, said, "So, what, what do you think about Katie Price?"
0:54:52 > 0:54:54I said, "I don't know who she is!"
0:54:54 > 0:54:57- CHEERING AND APPLAUSE - I'm so...
0:54:57 > 0:55:01'So, the whole thing would be a jolly party and the producers can breathe a sigh of relief'
0:55:01 > 0:55:05that nothing embarrassing has happened, nobody's lost their temper,
0:55:05 > 0:55:09- or you haven't had a Meg Ryan moment, as...- Ah.- As they're now known, I'm sure.
0:55:09 > 0:55:14We all have a much more sophisticated view of the medium
0:55:14 > 0:55:17and what's expected of us and what we can get away with
0:55:17 > 0:55:19and what we can hide. Er...
0:55:19 > 0:55:23And I... And I think there's a collusion in that with the people asking the questions.
0:55:23 > 0:55:27I mean, you look at most celebrity interviews now and they're...
0:55:27 > 0:55:30They're colluding pieces of entertainment.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33APPLAUSE Prime Minister...
0:55:33 > 0:55:36The point of this series is that I interview celebrities -
0:55:36 > 0:55:39interesting people who've had interesting lives.
0:55:39 > 0:55:43It doesn't get, for me, much bigger than the serving Prime Minister.
0:55:43 > 0:55:46So, I know why I'm here. Why are YOU here?
0:55:46 > 0:55:48- First of all, call me Gordon, please...- OK.
0:55:48 > 0:55:52'The nature of television has changed from being'
0:55:52 > 0:55:55professional men...
0:55:57 > 0:56:02..asking you quite, sort of, patrician, clubbable things,
0:56:02 > 0:56:04to being much more empathetic.
0:56:04 > 0:56:08And so the nature of interviews is empathy.
0:56:08 > 0:56:11So, if you look at, say for instance, Gordon Brown appearing on...
0:56:11 > 0:56:15Being talked to by Piers Morgan during the last election,
0:56:15 > 0:56:18where he talks about the death of his children...
0:56:18 > 0:56:21You know, she would be nine this year and, you know,
0:56:21 > 0:56:24you think all the time of, you know,
0:56:24 > 0:56:26the first steps and the first words
0:56:26 > 0:56:29and the first time you go to school, and it's just not been there.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32This is the happiest time of your life and suddenly it becomes
0:56:32 > 0:56:36the most grief-stricken time of your life.
0:56:36 > 0:56:40What you're looking for there is the empathy of the audience.
0:56:40 > 0:56:45And that is the great emotion of almost all television now -
0:56:45 > 0:56:48is empathy, and it certainly is in interviews.
0:56:48 > 0:56:52So, after 50 years of tough questioning,
0:56:52 > 0:56:56heated discussions, spin and just plain publicity,
0:56:56 > 0:57:00the television interview constantly evolves,
0:57:00 > 0:57:01and goes on evolving.
0:57:01 > 0:57:07I think television has loosened up how people feel about relationships.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11It might be just as though they were talking in a club or over dinner or something,
0:57:11 > 0:57:13and I like the informality of that.
0:57:13 > 0:57:18And I do always try to keep in mind that this is not a private dialogue.
0:57:18 > 0:57:21This isn't just me having a conversation
0:57:21 > 0:57:24with the Prime Minister or the leader of the opposition.
0:57:24 > 0:57:26I am there in some way representing the people.
0:57:26 > 0:57:29But the one thing you can absolutely guarantee
0:57:29 > 0:57:32is that the curiosity of the public
0:57:32 > 0:57:35to see into the lives, or to hear the explanations,
0:57:35 > 0:57:39of well-known figures will not go away.
0:57:39 > 0:57:43The greatest thing television's given me is working with talented people,
0:57:43 > 0:57:46doing something we all think's worth doing. There's nothing like it.
0:57:46 > 0:57:50It's been a massive stroke of luck.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53Well, looking back over the last hour,
0:57:53 > 0:57:57plenty of hints for would-be interviewers at home.
0:57:57 > 0:58:01For instance, any good interview has got to build.
0:58:01 > 0:58:05It's not the questions that matter - it's the answers they trigger.
0:58:05 > 0:58:10If the spin doctors aren't angry, you're not really doing your job.
0:58:10 > 0:58:13And, of course, for God's sake, listen!
0:58:13 > 0:58:18But it's clear that as long as human beings like to talk to each other,
0:58:18 > 0:58:21the television equivalent is here to stay.
0:58:21 > 0:58:25Good news for interviewers - and, hopefully, for viewers.
0:58:25 > 0:58:28But let's conclude in the way we always used to do
0:58:28 > 0:58:30when we first started in television.
0:58:30 > 0:58:33We'd turn in to the camera and say,
0:58:33 > 0:58:35"Well, I'm afraid we've run out of time.
0:58:35 > 0:58:39"The clock has beaten us once again.
0:58:39 > 0:58:40"Goodbye for now,
0:58:40 > 0:58:42"and stay tuned for Muffin The Mule."
0:59:03 > 0:59:06Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:59:07 > 0:59:10- Thank you. That was wonderful, Ruby. - Thank you.
0:59:10 > 0:59:13- I can't believe I'm telling you about interviews!- No, but...
0:59:13 > 0:59:16The God of interviews and I'm sitting here like a putz.
0:59:16 > 0:59:19It felt absolutely natural. Absolutely natural.
0:59:19 > 0:59:22- I didn't write it earlier. - No. Nor did I!