0:00:02 > 0:00:08This programme contains some scenes of a sexual nature
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Oh!
0:00:58 > 0:01:00APPLAUSE
0:01:00 > 0:01:03CHEERING
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Good heavens, it's Joan Bakewell.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14Hello, darling. What the dickens are you doing here?
0:01:14 > 0:01:17Ladies and gentlemen, my little friend Joan Bakewell.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20APPLAUSE
0:01:20 > 0:01:25- Joan, gorgeous to see you. - Good to see you.- Beautiful.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29Oh, ladies and gentlemen, this multi-talented lass.
0:01:29 > 0:01:30I've watched your career
0:01:30 > 0:01:32with growing interest, Joan.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34And how did you stumble in here, by the way?
0:01:34 > 0:01:38I came in here to interview Barry Humphries in depth.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40In-depth, well you'll certainly be doing that, dear,
0:01:40 > 0:01:42he'd be up to his eyes by now.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44LAUGHTER
0:01:44 > 0:01:48Yes, I am afraid I have been obliged at the eleventh hour to hold
0:01:48 > 0:01:51the fort here, so you'll have to interview me, dear.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54And I have never been interviewed by an intellectual equal before.
0:01:54 > 0:01:55LAUGHTER
0:01:55 > 0:01:57Only by Russell Harty.
0:01:57 > 0:01:58LAUGHTER
0:02:06 > 0:02:08I always wanted to have a largish library,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11because I'd accumulated a large number of books.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14Partly by error and partly left to me.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17And by great good luck, we found this hall here,
0:02:17 > 0:02:21which did accommodate them nearly all.
0:02:21 > 0:02:26Which of your paintings has given you the greatest pleasure?
0:02:26 > 0:02:27Which picture? Oh...
0:02:29 > 0:02:31..I suppose, really, the Renoir,
0:02:31 > 0:02:33the Baigneuse Blonde, was the picture that
0:02:33 > 0:02:35gave me the most pleasure that I've ever owned
0:02:35 > 0:02:38and I was really heartbroken to part with it.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41And, of course, some people might say that simply by having
0:02:41 > 0:02:43great painting not in a museum
0:02:43 > 0:02:46but on the walls of your home, you probably ignore them.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49What happens when you do live with beautiful paintings on your walls?
0:02:49 > 0:02:51Well, you said a mouthful.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55In fact, most of them you look at quite seldom.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59But, of course, the moment you show it to someone or
0:02:59 > 0:03:02a person like yourself comes to look who's fond of painting,
0:03:02 > 0:03:04then you experience it all over again.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23You know when you said to me that for every collection
0:03:23 > 0:03:27- there was a theme, there was a certain family likeness.- Yes.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31What's the family likeness about this season's collection?
0:03:31 > 0:03:34First of all, they are all mid-calf.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36They are all much longer.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38If I show you one,
0:03:38 > 0:03:40they are cut on the bias.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44The material is on the bias, you see?
0:03:44 > 0:03:47You can see it very easily, because the print goes on the bias.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49Still another one.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51It means they hang differently, doesn't it?
0:03:51 > 0:03:54And the material hangs completely...
0:03:56 > 0:04:00It's a different approach to the silhouette,
0:04:00 > 0:04:01because it gives.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16You did say somewhere,
0:04:16 > 0:04:17and I don't know whether
0:04:17 > 0:04:19I quite understood you,
0:04:19 > 0:04:21that's why I'd like to ask you about it now,
0:04:21 > 0:04:25that truth and falsehood
0:04:25 > 0:04:28cannot be dissociated from good and evil.
0:04:28 > 0:04:29That's right.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31Would you enlarge on that a little?
0:04:31 > 0:04:33Well, people sometimes think
0:04:33 > 0:04:35that a good action is one
0:04:35 > 0:04:38about which you feel good.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40But if I tell you a white lie about having
0:04:40 > 0:04:43seen your husband in some place with
0:04:43 > 0:04:45some man when I really saw him
0:04:45 > 0:04:47with a girl, I'm doing you a kindness.
0:04:47 > 0:04:48Now, I very much doubt that,
0:04:48 > 0:04:51in general, scientists think that they are probably
0:04:51 > 0:04:56doing you a kindness in the short run, but harm in the long run.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58And it's in that sense that we have
0:04:58 > 0:05:00to take a long, hard look at
0:05:00 > 0:05:02good and evil
0:05:02 > 0:05:04and truth and falsehood
0:05:04 > 0:05:07and ask ourselves are we doing
0:05:07 > 0:05:10good on those occasions where we
0:05:10 > 0:05:13slide past the strict boundaries
0:05:13 > 0:05:15between truth and falsehood?
0:05:27 > 0:05:30This is the sort of letter that could get someone into trouble.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33It contains an accusation against
0:05:33 > 0:05:35an individual and it's anonymous.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38It could go to the police, the immigration authorities,
0:05:38 > 0:05:40Customs and Excise.
0:05:40 > 0:05:44Members of the public are increasingly invited as
0:05:44 > 0:05:47good citizens to help in the fight against crime.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50In essence, they're being recruited to tell tales,
0:05:50 > 0:05:53to snoop on their neighbours.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57What lies at the heart of the matter is how far the public should
0:05:57 > 0:05:59go in agreeing to spy for the authorities
0:05:59 > 0:06:02and how far the authorities should go
0:06:02 > 0:06:04in actively enlisting their help.
0:06:15 > 0:06:18There's no mystery about what this is,
0:06:18 > 0:06:20it's quite clearly a washbasin,
0:06:20 > 0:06:22there are 15 of them round the central plinth
0:06:22 > 0:06:25and there are 37 of them round the terrace.
0:06:25 > 0:06:27What's more, they're actually plumbed in,
0:06:27 > 0:06:29so that you can turn on the water,
0:06:29 > 0:06:30there's specially shaped soap
0:06:30 > 0:06:32and you can wash your hands.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35And the water runs away into channels
0:06:35 > 0:06:38which form themselves into the shape of two hands washing.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42The question you might be forgiven for asking is, is this art?
0:06:42 > 0:06:44Well, the sculptor, Sarah Bradpiece,
0:06:44 > 0:06:46is at the next washbasin.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48So, is it art?
0:06:48 > 0:06:50It is art because I'm an artist.
0:06:57 > 0:06:58If I say it's a work of art,
0:06:58 > 0:07:01that makes it a work of art.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04Yeah, but the word "work of art", you see,
0:07:04 > 0:07:06is not so important for me.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08I don't care about the word art
0:07:08 > 0:07:13because it's been so, you know,
0:07:13 > 0:07:15discredited in some way.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18You said in the '20s, you proclaimed, "Art is dead."
0:07:18 > 0:07:20It isn't, is it?
0:07:20 > 0:07:23Yes, but that's what I meant by that, you see.
0:07:23 > 0:07:25I meant it's dead by the fact
0:07:25 > 0:07:29that instead of being singularized
0:07:29 > 0:07:31in a little box like that,
0:07:31 > 0:07:35so many artists in so many square feet,
0:07:35 > 0:07:38by the fact that it would be universal.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42It would be a human factor
0:07:42 > 0:07:46in anyone's life to be an artist,
0:07:46 > 0:07:48but not noticed as an artist.
0:07:48 > 0:07:49Do you see what I mean?
0:07:57 > 0:08:01Over the past decade, few artists have had such a monumental
0:08:01 > 0:08:03influence on the world of modern art
0:08:03 > 0:08:04as Muriel and Maddie.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07The Sunday Times said of them "Their obscure genius,
0:08:07 > 0:08:11"their sense of form and symmetry, is unsurpassed."
0:08:11 > 0:08:14Others have called their work mindless, pornographic,
0:08:14 > 0:08:16pretentious and total crap.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19We have made this film so that you can judge for yourselves.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22They have never given an interview before.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27How would you describe your work?
0:08:27 > 0:08:29Well, it's like an idea you get
0:08:29 > 0:08:33and I think, "What is it, when is it, who is it?"
0:08:33 > 0:08:35And as long as it's decadent and it's symmetrical,
0:08:35 > 0:08:37then I call it art.
0:08:44 > 0:08:45Ah!
0:08:45 > 0:08:46Ah!
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Aargh! Ah!
0:08:49 > 0:08:53I spent all my life avoiding violence, so it's very hard
0:08:53 > 0:08:56for someone like me to acknowledge that people really like violence.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59They like watching it, they like taking part in it.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01They don't mind if they get hurt.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03And they seem to want more and more of it.
0:09:06 > 0:09:07SHOTS FIRE
0:09:07 > 0:09:09There's a good deal of evidence that women,
0:09:09 > 0:09:11either by nurture or nature,
0:09:11 > 0:09:12are less aggressive than men.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15But if they're going to fight alongside men in combat battalions,
0:09:15 > 0:09:18then they're going to have to match them for aggressiveness.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21That means training themselves up to be every bit as fierce
0:09:21 > 0:09:24and unyielding as male soldiers.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27At that point, the debate focuses on whether society,
0:09:27 > 0:09:29in the interest of equality,
0:09:29 > 0:09:31should embark on a training that,
0:09:31 > 0:09:35at least by traditional values, seems to fly in the face of nature.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37SHOTS FIRE
0:09:37 > 0:09:39'I've always hated guns myself.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42'I duck in my seat when they come on the screen.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45'So I've come along to try and discover their appeal.'
0:09:54 > 0:09:57Coming in with a hatred of firearms, virtually,
0:09:57 > 0:10:01and the terrible things that they do,
0:10:01 > 0:10:03I can begin to experience
0:10:03 > 0:10:06the kind of power you get there.
0:10:06 > 0:10:10And the enormous adrenaline that... adrenaline rush.
0:10:23 > 0:10:29That filmmaking career began with something called The Silver Chalice.
0:10:29 > 0:10:30LAUGHTER
0:10:30 > 0:10:33Now, I know you wince every time it's mentioned.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37Perhaps we'd like your comments on that.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39Well, the question is really a matter of survival.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42I was grateful that I survived that.
0:10:42 > 0:10:43It was nobody's fault,
0:10:43 > 0:10:45it was just the worst film made
0:10:45 > 0:10:47in the entire of the 1950s.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49LAUGHTER
0:10:49 > 0:10:52It was shown recently on American television, wasn't it?
0:10:52 > 0:10:54Yes, and I took an ad in the LA Times...
0:10:54 > 0:10:56LAUGHTER
0:10:56 > 0:10:59..with a funereal wreath around it,
0:10:59 > 0:11:01saying that I apologised every night at 8.30.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03LAUGHTER
0:11:03 > 0:11:06And everyone tuned in to find out what I was apologising for.
0:11:06 > 0:11:07LAUGHTER
0:11:09 > 0:11:10Well, television and films have
0:11:10 > 0:11:12something in common, which the stage
0:11:12 > 0:11:15doesn't share, which is that you, as an actor,
0:11:15 > 0:11:18do get the opportunity to see your own performance.
0:11:18 > 0:11:20What's that like as an experience?
0:11:20 > 0:11:24Well, I think that, for me,
0:11:24 > 0:11:26horrendous, because...
0:11:27 > 0:11:30But, in a way, it's very fortunate that you never really see yourself.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33There's always that something left to the imagination.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40Jeremy Irons has been a working actor for 18 years now.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42Currently, he's with the Royal Shakespeare Company
0:11:42 > 0:11:44at Stratford-upon-Avon.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47Shakespeare, always the big challenge, nothing more so
0:11:47 > 0:11:49than Richard II, the indulgent,
0:11:49 > 0:11:53easy-going king deposed by ambitious nobles.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57'I'm always interested in the unknowable qualities'
0:11:57 > 0:11:59in people.
0:11:59 > 0:12:04And I find the most fascinating time in relationships is
0:12:04 > 0:12:06getting to know a person.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08I do feel that that is a fascinating journey
0:12:08 > 0:12:12and if one can give that quality to a character, instead of saying,
0:12:12 > 0:12:15"This is the sort of man it is, I must show it all,"
0:12:15 > 0:12:17actually say, "But people aren't like that."
0:12:17 > 0:12:22# Comrades, ye who have dared
0:12:23 > 0:12:25# First in the battle
0:12:25 > 0:12:27# To strive and sorrow
0:12:27 > 0:12:30# Scorned, spurned
0:12:30 > 0:12:33# Nought have ye cared
0:12:33 > 0:12:35# Raising your eyes... #
0:12:35 > 0:12:38You devoted the whole of your life to improving
0:12:38 > 0:12:41the lot of women, not just politically, but socially, too.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44So I wonder what you think of Women's Liberation today?
0:12:44 > 0:12:48I think they've got a much more difficult job than I had,
0:12:48 > 0:12:54because now it's a question of the change of mental attitude
0:12:54 > 0:12:56and not a change of law
0:12:56 > 0:12:59and that's far more difficult to get.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01You went abroad to train as a soldier,
0:13:01 > 0:13:03to lead the military wing,
0:13:03 > 0:13:04to prepare guerrillas for the struggle.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Now, did that go against your former impulse
0:13:07 > 0:13:09to be committed to non-violence?
0:13:11 > 0:13:17Well, to resort to violence was a very agonising decision,
0:13:17 > 0:13:21but because they were so committed to the struggle,
0:13:21 > 0:13:26when I then decided to see
0:13:26 > 0:13:29the leading ones one by one
0:13:29 > 0:13:32and spend the whole day with them,
0:13:32 > 0:13:35explaining just why it was
0:13:35 > 0:13:38unavoidable in our situation,
0:13:38 > 0:13:42we were able to get them to say,
0:13:42 > 0:13:44"You have convinced us
0:13:44 > 0:13:47"that there is a case for armed struggle in this country."
0:13:54 > 0:13:58The possibility of there being life in other parts of the universe
0:13:58 > 0:14:01has come a step nearer today with the announcement by a group
0:14:01 > 0:14:04of scientists that they've discovered what may be
0:14:04 > 0:14:06a planet around a far off star.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08That star is Vega.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Just about now in the summer sky it's directly overhead,
0:14:11 > 0:14:13the brightest star in the heavens.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17Sir Alec Guinness flew into Nice yesterday and was escorted to
0:14:17 > 0:14:19a luxury yacht in Cannes,
0:14:19 > 0:14:21his home for the current 48 hours.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25I talked to him earlier on the swaying deck of his yacht,
0:14:25 > 0:14:27as the speedboats whizzed by.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31Now let's talk about perhaps the most surprising role that
0:14:31 > 0:14:33you've played recently - Star Wars.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35Did it surprise you that it had
0:14:35 > 0:14:38such a success and has become so legendary?
0:14:38 > 0:14:41Well, of course. Except...
0:14:41 > 0:14:44When the script arrived, I was in Hollywood.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46I'd just finished, literally,
0:14:46 > 0:14:48on the last day of a film
0:14:48 > 0:14:50when the script arrived
0:14:50 > 0:14:51and I thought, "Oh, George Lucas.
0:14:51 > 0:14:56"That's a name to conjure with, in the avant-garde thing."
0:14:56 > 0:14:59And then I opened it and saw it was science fiction
0:14:59 > 0:15:01and I thought, "Not for me."
0:15:04 > 0:15:08Started to read it and was held,
0:15:08 > 0:15:10although the dialogue was appalling,
0:15:10 > 0:15:12but there was something
0:15:12 > 0:15:14about it which made you go on turning the pages.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21I suppose the most imaginative area of your work
0:15:21 > 0:15:25is in science fiction, children's science fiction, like Doctor Who.
0:15:25 > 0:15:26Doctor Who is, by its nature,
0:15:26 > 0:15:28a bit of a romp.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30We mustn't scare the pants off the kids too much,
0:15:30 > 0:15:34although we can take a certain degree in this direction.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01Hello and welcome to the first in a new series of
0:16:01 > 0:16:02What's It's All About?,
0:16:02 > 0:16:04which is the quiz in which we ask
0:16:04 > 0:16:08questions about Christianity, the Bible and all the major religions.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10You may remember that last time
0:16:10 > 0:16:12I put the questions to schoolchildren.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15Now, in this series, I put the questions to
0:16:15 > 0:16:18students from theological colleges and universities.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20Off we go, fingers on buzzers.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24Three of the four Gospels are known as Synoptic Gospels...
0:16:24 > 0:16:26BUZZER
0:16:26 > 0:16:29- Synoptics? ALL:- Matthew, Mark, Luke.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31Yes, not John.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34Inside the mosque, as they requested, I wore a headscarf.
0:16:34 > 0:16:36It's quite proper that I should do so
0:16:36 > 0:16:39when I'm entering someone else's holy places
0:16:39 > 0:16:42and it's also quite interesting to observe their traditions.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46But out here, I rejoin the mainstream of British traditions,
0:16:46 > 0:16:47where I can wear what I like
0:16:47 > 0:16:49and read what books I like.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52Until now, there were religions
0:16:52 > 0:16:54to tell people,
0:16:54 > 0:16:58"Don't do that, do that. Don't do that."
0:16:58 > 0:17:01But now, religion is more or less...finished,
0:17:01 > 0:17:03it's in the past.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07Very few people are truly religious, truly.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11To go to the Masses, not to be religious.
0:17:11 > 0:17:14So, what is said to the people?
0:17:14 > 0:17:18And maybe it's why violence is coming again.
0:17:18 > 0:17:22- Were you ever truly religious yourself?- No.
0:17:22 > 0:17:23You've never had any need for it?
0:17:23 > 0:17:26Until the age of 12, no more.
0:17:26 > 0:17:28How do you feel about it now?
0:17:29 > 0:17:35It's a question that...doesn't come to my mind. Never.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43I wonder how it is that you retain such femininity.
0:17:45 > 0:17:46Well, Joan...
0:17:48 > 0:17:49Have a cuppa, darling.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52- Oh, thank you.- I retain my femininity very simply.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56- Food. Food is the answer so often. - Diet, you mean?
0:17:56 > 0:17:58Well, not diet per se.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02LAUGHTER
0:18:02 > 0:18:05No, I mean food.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07Did it emerge in our little chat, I'm not sure,
0:18:07 > 0:18:10my son is a homoeopath.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12Did you know that?
0:18:12 > 0:18:15Where he would be without his parsnip juice, I don't know.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18His skin, his skin is beautiful, darling,
0:18:18 > 0:18:20it's marbled and translucent.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22But, you know, he's taught me a thing or two
0:18:22 > 0:18:26and I rely very much on organic beauty aids.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28I pamper myself
0:18:28 > 0:18:30with fruit and vegetables of all kinds,
0:18:30 > 0:18:33particularly, you know, at retirement.
0:18:33 > 0:18:34Have a sip of tea, for goodness' sake.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37When I go to bed at night, guess what I do with a cucumber?
0:18:37 > 0:18:40LAUGHTER
0:18:46 > 0:18:47I don't eat it, Joan.
0:18:47 > 0:18:51LAUGHTER
0:18:51 > 0:18:52Apply it?
0:18:52 > 0:18:54I apply it, you're right.
0:18:54 > 0:18:55LAUGHTER
0:18:59 > 0:19:03Now, I know that you have a very particular make-up,
0:19:03 > 0:19:06your own make-up, which is known as yours.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08How did this evolve?
0:19:08 > 0:19:09People say that all
0:19:09 > 0:19:12the clown's make-up is copyright,
0:19:12 > 0:19:13but it's not correct.
0:19:13 > 0:19:19It's not copyright at all, but it is like...
0:19:19 > 0:19:22a gentleman's agreement.
0:19:22 > 0:19:23A clown's make-up is like
0:19:23 > 0:19:26a good tailor-made suit.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29You say the make-up have to fit your face.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32If it doesn't fit your face, the make-up's no good.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42How dare, I wonder,
0:19:42 > 0:19:43those Hollywood moguls
0:19:43 > 0:19:45at the time when you first
0:19:45 > 0:19:48went from New York to Hollywood suggest that
0:19:48 > 0:19:51you couldn't be as sexy and glamorous as any other star?
0:19:51 > 0:19:55Well, according to their standards, you see, I wasn't.
0:19:55 > 0:19:59Now, this was really in the very beginning of talking pictures
0:19:59 > 0:20:02and all of us who came out from the theatre
0:20:02 > 0:20:05were not actressy kind of people.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09We sort of had our own colour hair and maybe a couple of teeth crooked.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12You know, they called me the "Little Brown Wren".
0:20:12 > 0:20:15I thought I was fairly attractive until I got to Hollywood,
0:20:15 > 0:20:17but I didn't for very long.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21But you did have to fight off all their attempts to glamorise you
0:20:21 > 0:20:22in their terms, didn't you?
0:20:22 > 0:20:24Oh, yes.
0:20:24 > 0:20:29Hepburn, Margaret Sullivan and I, were the three who really fought it.
0:20:29 > 0:20:30You know, fought the...
0:20:30 > 0:20:34Although, when I went to Warners', they made me bleach my hair.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37I knew it was going to limit me with parts,
0:20:37 > 0:20:41so I snuck down and had it put back to ash blonde.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44One year later, Mr Warner sent for me and said,
0:20:44 > 0:20:45"You've had your hair re-dyed."
0:20:45 > 0:20:49One year later! He'd NEVER seen it!
0:20:49 > 0:20:52But if I had gone for permission, he wouldn't have allowed it.
0:20:52 > 0:20:56I didn't want to go through life with a very bleached head of hair.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03The heat's really on, the temperature is in the 90s
0:21:03 > 0:21:05and there's not a cloud in the sky.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08It's just the sort of lazy holiday to give you
0:21:08 > 0:21:13and the children a terrific tan, just as long as you're VERY careful.
0:21:26 > 0:21:27One all.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29Shirmer is the next word.
0:21:30 > 0:21:31Joan.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35Shirmer is a noun of assemblage or,
0:21:35 > 0:21:37in language that you would understand,
0:21:37 > 0:21:38a group noun.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42One of those lovely, evocative words like pride of lions
0:21:42 > 0:21:44and school of dolphins,
0:21:44 > 0:21:47wisp of snipe, exultation of larks.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49Shirmer, would you believe, of pilchards?
0:21:51 > 0:21:53Not for a second!
0:21:53 > 0:21:55Where does the element of entertainment come into this?
0:21:55 > 0:21:58You said it's not easy to strike the right balance
0:21:58 > 0:22:00between information and entertainment.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02How would you define entertainment in television?
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Yes, I didn't say that in relation to an interview,
0:22:05 > 0:22:08I said it in relation to television journalism generally.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11In relation to an interview, there's no difficulty at all,
0:22:11 > 0:22:13because one never thinks about entertainment.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15I assure you if you've got ten minutes
0:22:15 > 0:22:18with a Cabinet minister and you have to discuss immigration,
0:22:18 > 0:22:21defence, economics, and the political situation
0:22:21 > 0:22:24and two or three other topics as well,
0:22:24 > 0:22:26and you have about two or three minutes on that,
0:22:26 > 0:22:27there's no time for entertainment.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29Now, when you come to television,
0:22:29 > 0:22:33do you find it an incomplete medium compared to stage?
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Er, yes, I must confess it is.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38In fact, for many,
0:22:38 > 0:22:42many years I was very anti-television.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45Obviously this was through lack of familiarity with it.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48Do you feel that in television you don't get the opportunity
0:22:48 > 0:22:52for real depth portrayal that you would get on the stage?
0:22:52 > 0:22:56Ah, well, a depth portrayal obviously depends on the amount of
0:22:56 > 0:22:59sensitivity in the actor, how deep he goes into the character,
0:22:59 > 0:23:04and also how well the director has placed his cameras to pick up
0:23:04 > 0:23:07the salient points which reveal that study.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11Plonked for an assemblage noun. It sounds fairly rightish.
0:23:11 > 0:23:16That was Joan. You've been plonked for. True or bluff?
0:23:16 > 0:23:18Right!
0:23:18 > 0:23:21APPLAUSE
0:23:22 > 0:23:26Now Joan Bakewell presents Heart Of The Matter.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36So, smacking for so long frowned on by child experts,
0:23:36 > 0:23:40could once again take an approved place in bringing up a child.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43What lies at the heart of the matter is what have parents to
0:23:43 > 0:23:44make of it all?
0:23:44 > 0:23:47To smack in the interest of law and order
0:23:47 > 0:23:49or to use methods of upbringing
0:23:49 > 0:23:52that focus more on the emotional needs of the child.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55Schools, when their turn comes,
0:23:55 > 0:23:57take up the responsibility for discipline.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00I haven't often caned a boy and wished I hadn't.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03You see, when a boy is face to face with
0:24:03 > 0:24:05a punishment that he...
0:24:05 > 0:24:11actually...doesn't much want to undergo,
0:24:11 > 0:24:14then it brings him to a new understanding.
0:24:15 > 0:24:16You know, it's like being
0:24:16 > 0:24:20executed in the morning, it concentrates the mind.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23Is there anything about your time at school that you really wish
0:24:23 > 0:24:26had been avoided, any attitudes and...
0:24:29 > 0:24:32You mean about the school, things that I would like to see changed.
0:24:32 > 0:24:33A lot of things.
0:24:33 > 0:24:41I think that, well, many of the taboos, the strange habits,
0:24:41 > 0:24:47corporal punishment even the system of fagging,
0:24:47 > 0:24:50none of these things really serve a purpose at all.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53They aren't essential to Eton at all, I don't think.
0:24:59 > 0:25:01Dr Spock, you say at the beginning of your new book
0:25:01 > 0:25:05that you believe that man in Western society has lost his ideals
0:25:05 > 0:25:08and the principles by which he lived.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10So it seems appropriate to ask you
0:25:10 > 0:25:12what ideals were built into your childhood
0:25:12 > 0:25:14and the way you were brought up?
0:25:14 > 0:25:16They were very stern ones.
0:25:17 > 0:25:21Absolute sexual Puritanism,
0:25:21 > 0:25:24must do the worthwhile thing,
0:25:24 > 0:25:29must never care whether anybody approves of what you do
0:25:29 > 0:25:33or don't do just as long as you know that it's morally right.
0:25:33 > 0:25:38All through adolescence and youth, I was rebelling against this
0:25:38 > 0:25:42and my stern mother, who was laying down these laws.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46I ground my teeth all those years.
0:25:46 > 0:25:51It's rather surprising and somewhat reluctantly that I swing around to
0:25:51 > 0:25:54aligning up, pretty much, with my mother's ideals.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56Does that mean that your parents disapproved of your ideas
0:25:56 > 0:25:59when you published your baby book?
0:25:59 > 0:26:03I was scared to death, of course, when my book was published
0:26:03 > 0:26:06because, in a way, for a young man to write a book
0:26:06 > 0:26:07on how to bring up children,
0:26:07 > 0:26:10in a way, it's a reflection on his mother.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14So I was very nervous as I waited to hear what she said.
0:26:14 > 0:26:19She came to New York and I waited and waited and she finally
0:26:19 > 0:26:22said, "Benny, I think it's quite sensible."
0:26:22 > 0:26:26I thought this was the best review I could have possibly gotten from her.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28I'm not sure she understood it all.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30I understand that your,
0:26:30 > 0:26:34in a sense, your parents were never reconciled to the fact that
0:26:34 > 0:26:37you were an actor, they never quite approved, did they?
0:26:37 > 0:26:39No, my mother approved, my father just,
0:26:39 > 0:26:45he didn't accept the idea of being an actor,
0:26:45 > 0:26:47my being an actor.
0:26:47 > 0:26:50I think that's the reason he kept the hardware store
0:26:50 > 0:26:53in operation,
0:26:53 > 0:26:59because I'm pretty sure that he felt that I was going to be found out
0:26:59 > 0:27:02sooner or later and he wanted to have a job for me to come back to.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08But he, nonetheless, was quite pleased when you won an Oscar
0:27:08 > 0:27:14because, didn't find it of use in his business?
0:27:14 > 0:27:20Yes, the day...the night that I won the Oscar,
0:27:20 > 0:27:23he called me very late
0:27:23 > 0:27:27and said that he thought it was fine and that I should
0:27:27 > 0:27:31send it back to the hardware store
0:27:31 > 0:27:35and he'd put it on the knife counter.
0:27:35 > 0:27:37LAUGHTER
0:27:37 > 0:27:43And that's what I did and it stayed there for 20 years
0:27:43 > 0:27:44under a cheese bell.
0:27:48 > 0:27:53Is it true that your father took exception to Anatomy Of A Murder
0:27:53 > 0:27:57and complained about it being filth?
0:27:57 > 0:27:58Yes, he did.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01He called me up and he said,
0:28:01 > 0:28:04"What's this I hear about you making a dirty picture?"
0:28:06 > 0:28:08And er...
0:28:09 > 0:28:12..he not only wouldn't go to see it when it came to Indiana,
0:28:12 > 0:28:17he put an ad in the Indiana Evening Gazette
0:28:17 > 0:28:20telling people not to go and see it.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23Sir Kenneth Clark, in an essay that you wrote about your childhood,
0:28:23 > 0:28:25you said that you were brought up in a rich,
0:28:25 > 0:28:28sporting and Philistine atmosphere.
0:28:28 > 0:28:33It's not the sort of background that one imagines you would have had.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36What was it like?
0:28:36 > 0:28:40I found it, as I said in that essay, I found it very agreeable.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42I was an only child.
0:28:42 > 0:28:44Only children are supposed to be lonely and unhappy,
0:28:44 > 0:28:46I was extremely happy.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50I was very largely neglected by my parents.
0:28:50 > 0:28:51I didn't mind that at all.
0:28:51 > 0:28:56I was looked after by a divine Scottish governess.
0:28:56 > 0:28:57And that's all I asked.
0:29:05 > 0:29:10If Britain can spend £786 million developing Concorde,
0:29:10 > 0:29:14which has carried only a quarter of a million people so far,
0:29:14 > 0:29:16how much money should we be investing in theatre and dance,
0:29:16 > 0:29:19painting, sculpture, music, literature,
0:29:19 > 0:29:24that's there for all 56 million of us, in Britain alone, to enjoy?
0:29:24 > 0:29:25And will the state
0:29:25 > 0:29:28and the private investor be willing to put money into
0:29:28 > 0:29:31odd, even eccentric, ideas?
0:29:31 > 0:29:34MUSIC: "Money, Money, Money" by Abba
0:29:43 > 0:29:44# I work all night I work all day
0:29:44 > 0:29:48# To pay the bills I have to pay
0:29:48 > 0:29:49# Ain't it sad? #
0:29:50 > 0:29:52A cup of tea, dear?
0:29:52 > 0:29:54I think that would be very pleasant.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01What we need is a private patron with
0:30:01 > 0:30:04a lot of money, like Samuel Courtauld in the old days,
0:30:04 > 0:30:08or if one goes far enough back, the Medici and people like that.
0:30:08 > 0:30:10They had money and taste.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12And the danger, of course, of the public commission
0:30:12 > 0:30:15is it's decided by a committee,
0:30:15 > 0:30:18and the committee's very apt to choose
0:30:18 > 0:30:21the safe or the mediocre painting rather than the imaginative one.
0:30:21 > 0:30:25Not always, but there is that danger and that's what one's up against.
0:30:25 > 0:30:30I know that artists become artists for very personal reasons, and I
0:30:30 > 0:30:34also appreciate that art's important to society for it spiritual values,
0:30:34 > 0:30:38but it seems to me also there's a case to be made for the way in which
0:30:38 > 0:30:42the people who work in the arts earn a great deal for this country.
0:30:42 > 0:30:46It may happen, but it's not the reason, it's not the...
0:30:46 > 0:30:48It's not the purpose.
0:30:48 > 0:30:51I mean, the purpose of art is not,
0:30:51 > 0:30:54er, to live at all, I mean, it's not making a living.
0:30:54 > 0:30:59For me, the arts are to make people enjoy
0:30:59 > 0:31:03and appreciate the world much more than they might do without them.
0:31:03 > 0:31:07# A little white duck went screaming up the lake this morning
0:31:09 > 0:31:14# A little white duck went screaming up the lake this morning
0:31:14 > 0:31:17# Well, a little white duck went screaming up the lake
0:31:17 > 0:31:19# Got ate up by a big black drake
0:31:19 > 0:31:24# Old Bill Rolling Pin this morning. #
0:31:26 > 0:31:29Mable Hillery, what's the story, Old Bill Rolling Pin,
0:31:29 > 0:31:31what's the story behind that song?
0:31:31 > 0:31:35I learned this song from a lady named Bessie Jones.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39And, Old Bill Rolling Pin means "patteroller".
0:31:39 > 0:31:45And "patteroller" in slaving means that there was men riding horses.
0:31:45 > 0:31:49And if you went from one plantation to the other
0:31:49 > 0:31:51without a pass,
0:31:51 > 0:31:55you would get tied to the whipping block and whipped.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59- And that's who Old Bill Rolling Pin was?- Yeah.
0:31:59 > 0:32:02This is the big one, the £2 million musical,
0:32:02 > 0:32:05the costliest show that London has ever seen
0:32:05 > 0:32:09and now with Jesus Christ Superstar, Evita and Cats behind him
0:32:09 > 0:32:12Andrew Lloyd Webber is one of the world's top talents.
0:32:12 > 0:32:14Tonight he has three shows running on Broadway
0:32:14 > 0:32:16and four running in London.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19We're not allowed to spoil the surprise with an extract
0:32:19 > 0:32:20directly from the show,
0:32:20 > 0:32:22but we can catch its flavour
0:32:22 > 0:32:26and its sound as Jeff Daniel sings his song AC/DC.
0:32:26 > 0:32:31# I am electric Feel my attraction
0:32:31 > 0:32:33# Feel my magnetism
0:32:33 > 0:32:34# You will agree
0:32:34 > 0:32:39# I am electric I have the contact
0:32:39 > 0:32:43# I am electric The future is me... #
0:32:43 > 0:32:46And some people of talent are here with me tonight.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48Andrew Lloyd Webber, great congratulations,
0:32:48 > 0:32:50not just on the show, I understand.
0:32:50 > 0:32:52Thank you. It's my birthday today.
0:32:52 > 0:32:54And not just your birthday.
0:32:54 > 0:32:57I got married again a couple of days ago.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59Anyway... I'll keep quiet.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02Did the show go well tonight, were you pleased with it?
0:33:02 > 0:33:05For a preview, and for a charity preview, which is normally the night
0:33:05 > 0:33:08that you cancel because charity audiences have paid so much money
0:33:08 > 0:33:12that they always get so worried about things, it was sensational.
0:33:12 > 0:33:15But I don't trust anything until we actually open in front of the press.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17And now from the Apollo, Victoria back to the studio.
0:33:17 > 0:33:21Well it's a didgeridoo that is a basic rhythmic
0:33:21 > 0:33:24instrument of Australia, isn't it? Do you use this in your...?
0:33:24 > 0:33:27I use it in the act actually.
0:33:27 > 0:33:32This is the shortest most playable one. Listen to this sound.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35LOW RUMBLING SOUND
0:33:38 > 0:33:42Is that in a different key from this one?
0:33:42 > 0:33:45Yeah, the longer they are, the deeper they get.
0:33:45 > 0:33:47This is a fairly high one, this is a B flat.
0:33:54 > 0:33:56What about that for a lovely sound?
0:33:56 > 0:34:00It's used for luring young maidens out into the bush, this one.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04Shepherd's Bush! Sorry. No, forget that.
0:34:04 > 0:34:10The music plays on, we dance under the stars, everyone has a good time.
0:34:10 > 0:34:15The evening to remember on a holiday all the family will remember.
0:34:15 > 0:34:19# ..Espana por favor. #
0:34:37 > 0:34:41Sex and drugs and rock 'n' roll are popularly seen as the defining
0:34:41 > 0:34:42characteristics of the 1960s,
0:34:42 > 0:34:46and, fair enough, there was more and more of them about.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49But something much more profound was happening,
0:34:49 > 0:34:52sweeping new legislation that would liberalise
0:34:52 > 0:34:55the whole of society was on the way.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58And my generation, we were all for it.
0:35:14 > 0:35:17This phrase, the father of the permissive generation,
0:35:17 > 0:35:20it's been used both in praise and in blame.
0:35:20 > 0:35:24But, in either case, it suggests that you liberated
0:35:24 > 0:35:27a whole generation to do exactly what they wanted.
0:35:27 > 0:35:30I understand that you think that's a gross misinterpretation.
0:35:30 > 0:35:32I certainly do.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36In fact, I would say, most modern parents reading the book
0:35:36 > 0:35:39will say to you confidentially,
0:35:39 > 0:35:42"As a matter of fact, it's a little bit old-fashioned
0:35:42 > 0:35:46"with its emphasis on firm parental leadership."
0:35:46 > 0:35:48I didn't think of myself as a permissivist.
0:35:48 > 0:35:51I've always objected strongly to brattish children
0:35:51 > 0:35:55or even children with thoughtlessness
0:35:55 > 0:35:57in relation to adults.
0:35:57 > 0:36:01I was always pleased that my children were considered charming
0:36:01 > 0:36:02by our friends.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07For me, the big change concerns pornography,
0:36:07 > 0:36:09once confined to seedy back rooms
0:36:09 > 0:36:11down dark alleys. Not any more.
0:36:11 > 0:36:16Porn is out in the open, in bright shops unafraid to declare its trade.
0:36:16 > 0:36:20It's not a trend I like, but then, I don't like porn.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23I think sex on display is crude and silly.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25But I wouldn't campaign to close it down.
0:36:25 > 0:36:29- So this is... - Women's inflatable doll.
0:36:29 > 0:36:34- This is a man. Oh, dear. - That's a man.
0:36:34 > 0:36:40- He's not my type.- With his cock.- And he inflates, does he?- Yes, he does.
0:36:40 > 0:36:42And there's his arse, and there we are.
0:36:42 > 0:36:47I know that the penetration shot is the one that fascinates people most.
0:36:47 > 0:36:48Mmm.
0:36:48 > 0:36:53That the entry of the penis into the female body really gets to people.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56Why do think that? It's strange, isn't it?
0:36:56 > 0:36:59- When you're really close up, it's meat, isn't it?- Mmm.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01It's not particularly pretty.
0:37:01 > 0:37:05It's not... It may... I don't know if I'd agree with that.
0:37:07 > 0:37:13- I think a lot of people do find it good to look at.- Oh, people dressed.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16And he's wearing a tie. That's a surprise!
0:37:16 > 0:37:20MUSIC: "Eton Boating Song"
0:37:20 > 0:37:24# And a hay harvest breeze
0:37:24 > 0:37:28# Blade on the feather... #
0:37:28 > 0:37:37MASTER CALLS NAMES: ..Beatty, Belmajor, Bennett, Bosworth, Baring,
0:37:37 > 0:37:39Bridge Minor...
0:37:39 > 0:37:41Here's a quote from the headmaster of Marlborough.
0:37:41 > 0:37:45"Moribund class distinctions are being given artificial
0:37:45 > 0:37:49"respiration by our educational system." Mr Amery?
0:37:49 > 0:37:52I think he's talking a lot of rot, if you ask me.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54Do you think you might have been in the Cabinet
0:37:54 > 0:37:57- if you had been a grammar school boy?- Who can tell?
0:37:57 > 0:38:00Jocelyn Stevens, when you came down from Cambridge,
0:38:00 > 0:38:02was being an old Etonian a help in getting your first job?
0:38:02 > 0:38:06It's a slightly unfair question because I went to work for my
0:38:06 > 0:38:10uncle and I probably would have been able to anyway, I should think.
0:38:10 > 0:38:14But I would say that in the newspaper world,
0:38:14 > 0:38:18being an old Etonian is a positive disadvantage,
0:38:18 > 0:38:21simply because there's a certain amateur
0:38:21 > 0:38:24reputation about Etonians,
0:38:24 > 0:38:27a slightly cavalier image of not taking
0:38:27 > 0:38:31anything very seriously and not being really in need of a job.
0:38:36 > 0:38:41- What was it that made Classics your choice?- Ah!
0:38:41 > 0:38:45It was the only thing I knew when I was young.
0:38:45 > 0:38:49It's the only thing I learnt at school,
0:38:49 > 0:38:50where I didn't really like it.
0:38:50 > 0:38:54But then I was away from school with the war,
0:38:54 > 0:39:00and in France, especially in the winter of 1917/18,
0:39:00 > 0:39:06nice German dugout we had and I read Greek and Latin.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09Nobody minded, they were very friendly.
0:39:09 > 0:39:14The result was, when I came up to university in 1919,
0:39:14 > 0:39:15I had read quite a lot.
0:39:15 > 0:39:22And this was, well...less of the sort. Then I fell in love with it.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25Did you expect to spend 50 years of your life studying it?
0:39:25 > 0:39:28Certainly not. Oh, no, not then.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30Joan Bakewell, what are your thoughts?
0:39:30 > 0:39:33I think we're about to see an evacuation of people
0:39:33 > 0:39:36from poorer backgrounds giving up on universities.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39I just think they'll think it's not worth that kind of debt,
0:39:39 > 0:39:42that kind of debt is huge if you've got a very low income,
0:39:42 > 0:39:45and you know, debt is something that this country has learned to be
0:39:45 > 0:39:49wary about, it's really bad to get, lumber yourself with debt, and I...
0:39:49 > 0:39:52- People are right to be wary.- Even the squeezed middles. I see this
0:39:52 > 0:39:56undermining what the university chances of my own grandchildren.
0:39:56 > 0:39:59BABY CRIES
0:40:01 > 0:40:05What about a husband being present during the delivery of a baby?
0:40:05 > 0:40:08We approve of husbands being present during the delivery of a baby.
0:40:08 > 0:40:11But husbands who are educated for their job.
0:40:11 > 0:40:15We don't believe in the passive husband who sits there
0:40:15 > 0:40:19and watches but the husband who actively works with his wife
0:40:19 > 0:40:22and is educated to understand
0:40:22 > 0:40:24what she's doing and what he can do
0:40:24 > 0:40:29to help his wife and to share the experience with her.
0:40:29 > 0:40:32- Should he go to classes with her? - He doesn't go to classes with her
0:40:32 > 0:40:34but we have a special fathers' evening,
0:40:34 > 0:40:38during which he is educated to know what to do.
0:40:43 > 0:40:45Should women have babies after the menopause?
0:40:45 > 0:40:48That is the latest moral dilemma to arise now that
0:40:48 > 0:40:50scientific development has made it possible.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53First comes the technology.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56Remember the shock when the first test-tube baby was created?
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Now, in vitro fertilisation is widely seen as acceptable
0:40:59 > 0:41:02for people with problems of infertility.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05But pioneering medical research hasn't stopped there.
0:41:05 > 0:41:09Today, women formally thought of as past child bearing,
0:41:09 > 0:41:11can be given a donor egg from a younger woman
0:41:11 > 0:41:13and have a late baby.
0:41:13 > 0:41:18That raises ethical issues about what is fair for the child,
0:41:18 > 0:41:21the family and for society at large.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24Today, young people turn a critical and responsible eye
0:41:24 > 0:41:26on the world around them.
0:41:26 > 0:41:30They see so much of the world. They watch its wars, its famines,
0:41:30 > 0:41:33its suffering on television so naturally
0:41:33 > 0:41:37their poems and songs tend to be dominated by these serious subjects
0:41:37 > 0:41:39but not always treated seriously.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42Here is a song that's about overpopulation.
0:41:47 > 0:41:49# Population is exploding
0:41:49 > 0:41:51# Soon there won't be any space
0:41:51 > 0:41:53# Mother Earth is overloading
0:41:53 > 0:41:56# With the good old human race... #
0:42:00 > 0:42:03The Rushdie affair awoke us belatedly to the fact that for
0:42:03 > 0:42:08some people traditional British law didn't quite do the job any more.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12There is no longer a single morality, no single god,
0:42:12 > 0:42:15no longer a single taboo.
0:42:15 > 0:42:17There's no national voice,
0:42:17 > 0:42:21but a cacophony of different sensibilities.
0:42:22 > 0:42:26The Broadcasting Standards Council publishes an occasional
0:42:26 > 0:42:29list of the words considered most offensive by the public.
0:42:29 > 0:42:32But over the recent years, politically-incorrect words
0:42:32 > 0:42:35referring to race and religion have gone up the list.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44Ah, this is the dress. Yes, let's stop it there.
0:42:44 > 0:42:47Right, let me ask you, would you immediately recognise that
0:42:47 > 0:42:50that dress was carrying a verse from the Koran?
0:42:50 > 0:42:51Yes.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54Apparently the word for God, which is in the Koran,
0:42:54 > 0:42:56is on the left breast of the dress.
0:42:57 > 0:43:02- Is that blasphemy? - Yes, it would be. It would be for us.
0:43:02 > 0:43:06Anyone who violates or vilifies, in a way,
0:43:06 > 0:43:10anything that is to do with our god
0:43:10 > 0:43:13and whom we believe in,
0:43:13 > 0:43:15then definitely, that is blasphemy for us.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17Tell me about Spitting Image, I mean,
0:43:17 > 0:43:20is there anything still sacred?
0:43:20 > 0:43:23Would you put, let me say, Jesus Christ?
0:43:23 > 0:43:27Well, there was a suggestion to have Christ on the Wogan Show,
0:43:27 > 0:43:29in which Christ appears and Terry...
0:43:29 > 0:43:31Who was the interviewer?
0:43:31 > 0:43:33Terry appeared and said, "Do you like my suit?
0:43:33 > 0:43:35"And would you like to touch my knee?"
0:43:35 > 0:43:39and offered him a cup of coffee and had a self-centred interview.
0:43:39 > 0:43:44Now that was I think considered at board level too offensive.
0:43:44 > 0:43:46Are you fearful that your material will offend?
0:43:46 > 0:43:51It's good to offend people. It makes them think.
0:43:51 > 0:43:53I just want Muslims to lighten up.
0:43:53 > 0:43:56Even the Taliban must laugh. God knows what at.
0:43:56 > 0:43:58They must laugh at something.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01Is there a limit? Are there things you couldn't say?
0:44:01 > 0:44:03No, I don't think there's any limits.
0:44:03 > 0:44:06There is nothing that can't be joked about.
0:44:20 > 0:44:23- Do you think you're a racist, Bernard?- No, I'm not a racist, no.
0:44:23 > 0:44:25But you ran into a lot of trouble, didn't you,
0:44:25 > 0:44:28when political correct language came in and you started...
0:44:28 > 0:44:30Everybody has, everybody has. You've got to watch
0:44:30 > 0:44:33your Ps and Qs, but I don't, I mean, it doesn't make any difference.
0:44:33 > 0:44:38But the whole idea was that certain groups of people who
0:44:38 > 0:44:43were less advantaged, shall we say, blacks and so on, whom you
0:44:43 > 0:44:46call niggers and other groups who you were rude about, you were
0:44:46 > 0:44:52reinforcing stereotypes that were preventing sort of social equality.
0:44:52 > 0:44:56No, I don't call anybody niggers now, them days are gone.
0:44:56 > 0:44:58So, you've changed your vocabulary?
0:44:58 > 0:45:02I would use it if I wanted to use it. I just don't want to use it.
0:45:02 > 0:45:03Why don't you?
0:45:05 > 0:45:07- Why don't I?- What's changed?
0:45:07 > 0:45:09Well, I can say a black man.
0:45:23 > 0:45:27Jackanory. On BBC One this afternoon, it started another series
0:45:27 > 0:45:30of the traditional negro tales of Brer Fox
0:45:30 > 0:45:31and Brer Rabbit.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34When the tales were first published in 1880, they were told
0:45:34 > 0:45:38by a lovable old darkie called Uncle Remus,
0:45:38 > 0:45:41to the young son of the family on whose southern plantation
0:45:41 > 0:45:43he lived and worked.
0:45:43 > 0:45:46Today, the Uncle Remus framework was scrapped
0:45:46 > 0:45:48and the stories were told by George Browne,
0:45:48 > 0:45:52actor, singer and musician who comes from Trinidad.
0:45:52 > 0:45:54How do you feel about these books when you see them
0:45:54 > 0:45:56in the library or in bookshops?
0:45:56 > 0:45:58Really terrible.
0:45:58 > 0:46:02Are there any equivalents of Little Black Sambo
0:46:02 > 0:46:06in negro society, where the white man figures rather badly
0:46:06 > 0:46:08and is treated with contempt?
0:46:08 > 0:46:10No, not at all. The only legend I know of
0:46:10 > 0:46:13where the white man figured badly
0:46:13 > 0:46:16is a legend we have in Trinidad.
0:46:16 > 0:46:21It's about a bamboo patch - the bamboo grow wild in Trinidad.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24If you should come across a bamboo flower
0:46:24 > 0:46:26when you pick it, a white man will appear
0:46:26 > 0:46:27and offer you all sorts of money.
0:46:27 > 0:46:30It really is the devil.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59Can you deduce from the look of a building
0:46:59 > 0:47:00the gender of its creator?
0:47:00 > 0:47:05The old cliche has it that curves, domes and such are female
0:47:05 > 0:47:07and that spires and towers are male,
0:47:07 > 0:47:09for obvious reasons.
0:47:09 > 0:47:12In which case this tall, arrogant, powerful building
0:47:12 > 0:47:14would have been created by a man.
0:47:14 > 0:47:17In fact, it was created by a woman.
0:47:17 > 0:47:20But what a woman.
0:47:20 > 0:47:21More than anything,
0:47:21 > 0:47:24Bess was a brilliant architectural tactician.
0:47:24 > 0:47:28Even her staircase, as impressive a piece of architectural stage setting
0:47:28 > 0:47:30as you could devise,
0:47:30 > 0:47:33forced the most noble visitor into a supplicant state.
0:47:33 > 0:47:38Only after a long and seemingly endless assent to the second floor,
0:47:38 > 0:47:41would visitors at last encounter their host.
0:47:42 > 0:47:45While outside, perhaps her most arrogant gesture of all,
0:47:45 > 0:47:49her initials - ES for Elizabeth Shrewsbury -
0:47:49 > 0:47:53proclaimed from the rooftop that this is her building alone.
0:47:53 > 0:47:57Barbara Castle, the ladies invited to the Punch lunch
0:47:57 > 0:48:01were invited by William Davis in the hope that they would contribute
0:48:01 > 0:48:04womanly articles
0:48:04 > 0:48:07to an edition of Punch edited by him.
0:48:07 > 0:48:10It turns out that you have taken over as editor.
0:48:10 > 0:48:12How did that come about?
0:48:12 > 0:48:15I think it was a piece of spontaneous combustion.
0:48:15 > 0:48:17Combustion was the word.
0:48:17 > 0:48:22I've never been in a room full of more united and indignant females
0:48:22 > 0:48:27when we suddenly realised that we had been lured,
0:48:27 > 0:48:30decoyed to this lunch
0:48:30 > 0:48:36in order to serve the purposes of a male editor of Punch's idea
0:48:36 > 0:48:41of how to exploit women journalistically.
0:48:41 > 0:48:43We just said, "We're not having it."
0:48:43 > 0:48:46I'm all for women's rights but I think that
0:48:46 > 0:48:51it's a separate thing, this matter of women being encouraged
0:48:51 > 0:48:53to think that they are the same as men
0:48:53 > 0:48:56and that to get gratification out of life,
0:48:56 > 0:48:59they must get it in exactly the same way men do.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02Feminists are entitled to say, "It doesn't matter
0:49:02 > 0:49:03"what you think."
0:49:03 > 0:49:06I think they are right. Maybe I was wrong to even bring this out.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09You've come under quite an attack in America, haven't you?
0:49:09 > 0:49:13I have. I'm bruised. I'm covered from bruises from
0:49:13 > 0:49:15grim women feminists!
0:49:15 > 0:49:18I don't know how the Women's Liberation Movement
0:49:18 > 0:49:22is spreading here but it's spreading like wildfire.
0:49:22 > 0:49:25It isn't just the fierce, extremist women.
0:49:25 > 0:49:29They are persuading very sensible, non-aggressive women.
0:49:29 > 0:49:33Let's think over the injustices that women suffer under.
0:49:33 > 0:49:35APPLAUSE
0:49:35 > 0:49:38It seems to me that this is a typical macho,
0:49:38 > 0:49:42head-to-head, male, aggressive conflict.
0:49:42 > 0:49:46What is wrong with these people? Why do they not get together
0:49:46 > 0:49:49go to arbitration and compromise in perhaps the way,
0:49:49 > 0:49:52as Harriet Harman suggested,
0:49:52 > 0:49:55if there were more women managing these organisations?
0:49:55 > 0:49:58APPLAUSE
0:50:03 > 0:50:06You spent many years as a child living in Suffolk
0:50:06 > 0:50:08And you wrote of that time
0:50:08 > 0:50:11that as a child, the horses you saw there,
0:50:11 > 0:50:13the Suffolk Punches,
0:50:13 > 0:50:16gave you your first aesthetic sense
0:50:16 > 0:50:18of sculptural beauty.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21I'll tell you the very first.
0:50:21 > 0:50:26It was in the Japanese exhibition in...White City.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31It was an enormous exhibition. 1910 it must have been.
0:50:31 > 0:50:35The Japanese had sent some of their finest screens,
0:50:35 > 0:50:37things they've never exported since.
0:50:37 > 0:50:40I remember then -
0:50:40 > 0:50:42I was only seven years old, eight years old -
0:50:42 > 0:50:44feeling I was in a different world
0:50:44 > 0:50:47of experience, that the things of before were trash
0:50:47 > 0:50:50and that these things were somehow marvellous.
0:50:50 > 0:50:55And I wanted to go on looking at them.
0:50:55 > 0:50:58The 6th Duke, the Bachelor Duke, as he's known,
0:50:58 > 0:51:00was a great connoisseur.
0:51:00 > 0:51:02What kind of a man was he?
0:51:02 > 0:51:04Completely charming, all the way through.
0:51:04 > 0:51:08Whether you read about him or whether you read his own writings,
0:51:08 > 0:51:11where his own personality comes through,
0:51:11 > 0:51:12he just adored this place.
0:51:12 > 0:51:17All these different pieces, chosen for the places they now stand?
0:51:17 > 0:51:19I think so.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22I think he was quite a rash buyer.
0:51:22 > 0:51:26I think he bought things he loved and then found somewhere to put it.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29What is interesting is that they reflect
0:51:29 > 0:51:31the contemporary art of his day.
0:51:31 > 0:51:33It's hard to think of this as contemporary art, isn't it?
0:51:33 > 0:51:35He keeps on about modern sculptures
0:51:35 > 0:51:37and here's his idea of a modern sculpture.
0:51:37 > 0:51:39It's not exactly ours, is it?!
0:51:39 > 0:51:41He commissioned this from Canova?
0:51:41 > 0:51:45Yes. This was his great prize that he loved beyond anything.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48He was in ecstasy when it arrived.
0:51:53 > 0:51:55Do you think that's pretty?
0:51:55 > 0:51:56It does it for me, yeah.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59- From a...- What does it do for you?
0:51:59 > 0:52:02At the moment it just means I know I've got a good shot.
0:52:02 > 0:52:05- You can still see it. - Why do people want to look at that?
0:52:05 > 0:52:08Masturbatory purposes, I fear.
0:52:08 > 0:52:09Primarily.
0:52:09 > 0:52:12It's not very appealing to my aesthetic sense.
0:52:12 > 0:52:14It looks a bit athletic.
0:52:14 > 0:52:15From a male point of view,
0:52:15 > 0:52:19- that appeals to my aesthetic sense unbelievably!- Not aesthetic!
0:52:19 > 0:52:23- That's just...- Beautiful. It's perfect. Look at that!
0:52:23 > 0:52:25It's perfectly formed.
0:52:26 > 0:52:27Delicious bottom.
0:52:27 > 0:52:30Not a stretch mark or a crease or a blemish on it anywhere.
0:52:30 > 0:52:32No, that's true. That's true.
0:52:32 > 0:52:34Almost callipygian, we could say.
0:52:43 > 0:52:44Not that big.
0:52:44 > 0:52:46This is a mighty molar.
0:52:46 > 0:52:48Considerably larger than life.
0:52:48 > 0:52:50But it shows us very clearly...
0:52:50 > 0:52:52There's the crown of the tooth.
0:52:52 > 0:52:55That's the part you can see in the mouth.
0:52:55 > 0:52:59But like an iceberg, underneath it is a very much longer root
0:52:59 > 0:53:01or roots for a back tooth,
0:53:01 > 0:53:03which holds it in the jawbone
0:53:03 > 0:53:05and keeps it in place.
0:53:05 > 0:53:07Let's pretend to cut it in half
0:53:07 > 0:53:09and see it in a section.
0:53:09 > 0:53:12You can see how it's made up then. This crown
0:53:12 > 0:53:14is covered by a comparatively thin layer
0:53:14 > 0:53:17of a terribly hard substance called enamel.
0:53:17 > 0:53:22You are a scientist who understands the world of the poet
0:53:22 > 0:53:25and a man of letters yourself - you've written biography
0:53:25 > 0:53:27and poetry too. Is it possible
0:53:27 > 0:53:30for the poet to look into the scientist's world
0:53:30 > 0:53:33in the same way?
0:53:34 > 0:53:37Yes, it is but we don't, in general, have the vocabulary
0:53:37 > 0:53:38for it yet.
0:53:40 > 0:53:42I think a generation or two will mend this.
0:53:42 > 0:53:45I think a lot of poets are working at it now.
0:53:46 > 0:53:48The two worlds are not dissonant in this respect.
0:53:48 > 0:53:50It's quite a simple thing. I can put it to you
0:53:50 > 0:53:54in the simplest terms, since I'm interested in education.
0:53:54 > 0:53:56I've made all my children do a lot of science
0:53:56 > 0:53:59before they've gone on to literature because
0:53:59 > 0:54:01if they know the vocabulary of science,
0:54:01 > 0:54:03then they can do literature.
0:54:03 > 0:54:04But if they start by doing literature,
0:54:04 > 0:54:06they'll never read a paper by Bragg again.
0:54:10 > 0:54:15I've come along to look at my own brainwaves.
0:54:15 > 0:54:20And see whether that indicates anything about creativity.
0:54:20 > 0:54:21'Dr John Gruzelier
0:54:21 > 0:54:25'is Professor of Psychology at Imperial College in London.
0:54:25 > 0:54:28'Since 1999, he's been studying brain activity
0:54:28 > 0:54:31'in creative people. His latest work
0:54:31 > 0:54:34'suggests that our capacity for creative thinking
0:54:34 > 0:54:36'is at its most potent when we have an elevated level
0:54:36 > 0:54:40'of brainwaves running at four to eight cycles per second.
0:54:40 > 0:54:44'What neuroscientists call "the theta state".
0:54:44 > 0:54:48'Contrary to expectations, it's the elderly
0:54:48 > 0:54:52'that find it easier to attain the theta state.
0:54:52 > 0:54:56'Could this explain the phenomenon of autumn flowering?'
0:54:57 > 0:55:00GERMAN SONG PLAYS
0:55:02 > 0:55:04SONG SUNG IN GERMAN
0:55:23 > 0:55:27People over 60 quite often have special holiday needs -
0:55:27 > 0:55:29nothing too energetic, nothing too costly.
0:55:29 > 0:55:32Some of them are quite definitely looking for friendship,
0:55:32 > 0:55:34all of them want entertainments
0:55:34 > 0:55:36that are keyed to their particular tastes.
0:55:36 > 0:55:38Well, here in Great Yarmouth,
0:55:38 > 0:55:41lots of people over 60 are finding exactly what they want.
0:55:41 > 0:55:42They come here in ones, twos,
0:55:42 > 0:55:45and quite often in groups to enjoy it all.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50MUSIC: "Have I Got News For You Theme"
0:55:50 > 0:55:53At least two-thirds of the benefit money
0:55:53 > 0:55:55goes to older, retired people.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57So it's your fault!
0:55:57 > 0:55:58LAUGHTER
0:55:58 > 0:56:00For being old?!
0:56:00 > 0:56:04Look, time to strip the pensioners of all those freebies!
0:56:04 > 0:56:05For example, we just... >
0:56:08 > 0:56:10Not at all! Good heavens above.
0:56:10 > 0:56:13Do you want to hear what they would say in the home counties?
0:56:13 > 0:56:15We have worked all our lives
0:56:15 > 0:56:18and we deserve the reward in our older years.
0:56:22 > 0:56:24Life is time.
0:56:24 > 0:56:26- We only have a lifespan.- Yeah.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29Do you have any sense of that rolling out before you?
0:56:29 > 0:56:32I'm not prepared to think about it.
0:56:32 > 0:56:33You don't want to think about it?
0:56:33 > 0:56:36No. Do you think about it?
0:56:36 > 0:56:38Quite a bit.
0:56:38 > 0:56:40- Hmm.- Are you fearful of it?
0:56:43 > 0:56:45Well, it's the last adventure.
0:56:46 > 0:56:48Maybe it's the first.
0:56:53 > 0:56:57This is a typical first-century tomb.
0:56:57 > 0:57:01It's dripping, it's pretty deep in water and it's pretty smelly.
0:57:03 > 0:57:05Here, archaeologists would have me
0:57:05 > 0:57:11believe I've got just about as close as I could get to the tomb of Jesus.
0:57:14 > 0:57:16'For many Christians,
0:57:16 > 0:57:20'this is the place where the mystery of the Resurrection occurred.'
0:57:22 > 0:57:26Polly Toynbee, Resurrection is spoken of as the focus
0:57:26 > 0:57:29of Christianity and its hope for the future.
0:57:29 > 0:57:30What's your reaction to it?
0:57:30 > 0:57:34It's the part of Christianity that I find the very hardest
0:57:34 > 0:57:35and the part that I dislike most,
0:57:35 > 0:57:38because I think it's selling people false goods, I think it's not
0:57:38 > 0:57:41true, I think it's very important that people should come to terms
0:57:41 > 0:57:45with the idea that life is what we've got, this is all there is.
0:57:45 > 0:57:49Make the best of it, understand its beginning, its middle and its end.
0:57:49 > 0:57:53And that for as long as you sell people an impossible dream
0:57:53 > 0:57:56that it goes on later somewhere else in some better place,
0:57:56 > 0:57:59people will fail to get to grips with the real nature of life as it is.
0:58:03 > 0:58:09Alabaster tombs in Derbyshire can be monumental, beautiful, impressive.
0:58:09 > 0:58:11They can also be quite eerie.
0:58:19 > 0:58:22Look at them. They're like chrysalis
0:58:22 > 0:58:25waiting to be transformed into great butterflies.
0:58:27 > 0:58:28The life after death?
0:58:29 > 0:58:33That's what intrigues me about all tombs -
0:58:33 > 0:58:38the fact that they establish an identity here on earth,
0:58:38 > 0:58:41but they also tell us we all have to face
0:58:41 > 0:58:44the great and quiet sleep of death.
0:59:11 > 0:59:14Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd