The Fight for Saturday Night

0:00:02 > 0:00:07This programme contains some strong language.

0:00:07 > 0:00:10# You've got a lot of nerve to say you are my friend

0:00:10 > 0:00:15# When I was down, you just stood there grinning

0:00:19 > 0:00:26# You've got a lot of nerve to say you've got a helping hand to lend

0:00:27 > 0:00:33# You just want to be on the side that's winning... #

0:00:35 > 0:00:37If you are the network controller,

0:00:37 > 0:00:42the first ratings you look at are the ratings on Saturday night.

0:00:42 > 0:00:44There is no hiding place, there is no easy slot.

0:00:44 > 0:00:48The Wembley Stadium of television is Saturday night television.

0:00:48 > 0:00:52Both the big beasts of British television want that audience.

0:00:52 > 0:00:54It's like being the captain of a ship,

0:00:54 > 0:00:58because if it does start to go down, you go down with it.

0:00:58 > 0:01:01If it hits, you think, "Thank you!

0:01:01 > 0:01:04"There is someone up there after all."

0:01:04 > 0:01:07Yes, there is pressure, but... You can't not enjoy that moment.

0:01:07 > 0:01:09You can't not enjoy being on Saturday night.

0:01:09 > 0:01:11It's what it's all about.

0:01:11 > 0:01:13- Come on.- Come on, entertain us!

0:01:13 > 0:01:15And it had better be special.

0:01:16 > 0:01:19Ever since the dawn of commercial television,

0:01:19 > 0:01:23Saturday night has been a battle ground between ITV and BBC One.

0:01:23 > 0:01:27No-one ever got fired for finishing second on a Tuesday night,

0:01:27 > 0:01:31but the television graveyard is littered with the corpses

0:01:31 > 0:01:35of producers and presenters who didn't quite cut it

0:01:35 > 0:01:36on Saturday night.

0:01:36 > 0:01:40At times, it was dirty. At times, it was personal.

0:01:40 > 0:01:43This is The Fight For Saturday Night.

0:01:43 > 0:01:47This programme contains some strong language.

0:01:47 > 0:01:51Since 1936, the BBC had been flying solo,

0:01:51 > 0:01:57but on September 22nd 1955, the TV landscape changed for ever,

0:01:57 > 0:02:02when ITV opened its commercial doors for the very first time.

0:02:02 > 0:02:08Oyez! Oyez!

0:02:08 > 0:02:12Overnight, there was choice, and the fight was on for the hearts

0:02:12 > 0:02:15and eyeballs of the great British public.

0:02:15 > 0:02:19In the beginning, ratings were no more than a head counting exercise.

0:02:19 > 0:02:25But in 1965, controller of BBC One Michael Peacock saw a way

0:02:25 > 0:02:27to use them as a strategic weapon,

0:02:27 > 0:02:30to lock in audiences for the whole evening.

0:02:35 > 0:02:38The important thing I learnt was,

0:02:38 > 0:02:43if you could win the 7.00-7.30pm time period,

0:02:43 > 0:02:47you could win the evening very easily.

0:02:47 > 0:02:51The audience stayed to go on watching shows later in the evening.

0:02:51 > 0:02:53Up to 80%, sometimes.

0:02:53 > 0:02:55It was before the age of the zapper,

0:02:55 > 0:02:59so you couldn't easily change channels.

0:02:59 > 0:03:02So I could build a schedule that would be very,

0:03:02 > 0:03:05very difficult to beat.

0:03:05 > 0:03:10The BBC used this method to dominate the schedules for years to come.

0:03:10 > 0:03:13ITV certainly gave them a helping hand with the launch

0:03:13 > 0:03:18of their newest franchise, London Weekend Television in 1968.

0:03:23 > 0:03:27The late David Frost decided he knew what the British public

0:03:27 > 0:03:29really wanted,

0:03:29 > 0:03:32and led an audacious bid to take over the London franchise with

0:03:32 > 0:03:38the mantra, "We have a duty to lead public taste to a higher ground."

0:03:38 > 0:03:40Thank you, thank you very much indeed, ladies and gentlemen,

0:03:40 > 0:03:42and good evening.

0:03:42 > 0:03:44Well, it's an odd little story.

0:03:46 > 0:03:50When I was a kid of nine, I fell out of a window

0:03:50 > 0:03:54onto the pavement below and fractured my elbow.

0:03:54 > 0:03:58Years later, there was a bursa there which was very painful,

0:03:58 > 0:04:00and I had to have it removed.

0:04:01 > 0:04:06And I eventually decided I would get on with it,

0:04:06 > 0:04:12and I took a week off to get a surgeon to do just that.

0:04:13 > 0:04:16I came out of the anaesthetic, so to speak,

0:04:16 > 0:04:20to find David Frost looming over me.

0:04:20 > 0:04:23"Michael! Good to see you."

0:04:23 > 0:04:29He had come in as a visitor and he pitched his great

0:04:29 > 0:04:35idea for London Weekend, and would I think about it?

0:04:35 > 0:04:37You know, he needed a number one.

0:04:37 > 0:04:39The subject that I mentioned earlier,

0:04:39 > 0:04:41the subject that concerns us all

0:04:41 > 0:04:44is the subject of dying, the subject of death.

0:04:44 > 0:04:48He caught me at a time when I was lying there in a hospital bed,

0:04:48 > 0:04:51thinking, and that's always dangerous!

0:04:52 > 0:04:55London Weekend win the new franchise.

0:04:55 > 0:04:58First of all, they steal half the BBC, but they also announced

0:04:58 > 0:05:02that Saturday night was going to be an evening of high culture.

0:05:02 > 0:05:04You could go home early, couldn't you?

0:05:04 > 0:05:11When LWT arrived, here was a new franchise, and all its highfalutin

0:05:11 > 0:05:15predictions that they were going to make arts programmes...

0:05:15 > 0:05:17I mean, it wasn't really a threat to the ratings.

0:05:17 > 0:05:20I wasn't really shaking in my shoes.

0:05:20 > 0:05:23We're going to perform The Soldier's Tale,

0:05:23 > 0:05:24by Igor Stravinsky.

0:05:24 > 0:05:26The English version is by John Arden.

0:05:26 > 0:05:29I tell the story, my name is Barry Foster.

0:05:29 > 0:05:33The music will be conducted by Gary Bertini,

0:05:33 > 0:05:36and the violin will be played by Yehudi Menuhin.

0:05:36 > 0:05:39What they wanted to do was not

0:05:39 > 0:05:42what the general public wanted.

0:05:42 > 0:05:44I thought, "They're doomed".

0:05:44 > 0:05:46MUSIC PLAYS

0:05:46 > 0:05:48Down the road, he walks alone.

0:05:50 > 0:05:52Soldier walking to his home.

0:05:55 > 0:06:00It was culture and high-mindedness, concentrated,

0:06:00 > 0:06:04when the nation is trying to relax and have some entertainment.

0:06:04 > 0:06:09London Weekend had programme ideas which were...

0:06:09 > 0:06:15Let's call it middle-class, let's call it further upmarket.

0:06:24 > 0:06:28Surprise, surprise, the ratings were very poor.

0:06:38 > 0:06:43Within a month, the share of audience had plummeted.

0:06:43 > 0:06:49It affected ITV as a whole. It ended in disaster.

0:06:49 > 0:06:53How can I make them believe that I'm no more than a dead man?

0:06:58 > 0:07:03I had to take the blame.

0:07:04 > 0:07:06I was told the board were not happy

0:07:06 > 0:07:08with the ratings that we were getting,

0:07:08 > 0:07:15and that they felt they could find a new number one.

0:07:15 > 0:07:18When things aren't going well,

0:07:18 > 0:07:21it's the guy at the top that has to walk the plank.

0:07:26 > 0:07:31LWT had aimed high and failed miserably.

0:07:31 > 0:07:34They learned a very expensive lesson about what audiences

0:07:34 > 0:07:37want from their televisions at the weekend.

0:07:37 > 0:07:40It would take a decade or more to recover.

0:07:40 > 0:07:42- Mr Moir.- Mr Grade.

0:07:42 > 0:07:45- I beg your pardon - Lord Grade. - Thank you.

0:07:46 > 0:07:49- Do you want to start again? - No, it's fine!

0:07:49 > 0:07:52Did you spend much time worrying about what ITV was

0:07:52 > 0:07:54- doing at this point?- No.

0:07:54 > 0:08:00I think we were too worried about supplying ammunition to the front.

0:08:00 > 0:08:05I particularly remember Bill Cotton, who had returned from Montreux,

0:08:05 > 0:08:09where he had seen a Dutch game show,

0:08:09 > 0:08:11Een Van De Acht, One Out Of Eight.

0:08:17 > 0:08:21We could see there was something we could take home with us.

0:08:21 > 0:08:25THEY SING IN DUTCH

0:08:33 > 0:08:35We sat down to dinner with the Dutch,

0:08:35 > 0:08:39who were highly flattered the BBC was going to take their little show.

0:08:39 > 0:08:42So, you come back, and then there's the big question -

0:08:42 > 0:08:44who are we going to get to present it?

0:08:48 > 0:08:50SHE SPEAKS DUTCH

0:08:50 > 0:08:53Well, I'd had quite a bit of a break before that, where I hadn't

0:08:53 > 0:08:57done very much, and things didn't look all that rosy for me, actually.

0:08:57 > 0:09:00I thought, "Well, what am I going to do next?"

0:09:00 > 0:09:05I went to Bill Cotton to do a talk show, and he listened very

0:09:05 > 0:09:07nicely for about an hour,

0:09:07 > 0:09:11and then he said, "I want to show you something."

0:09:11 > 0:09:13HE SINGS IN DUTCH

0:09:18 > 0:09:22- It's all in Dutch, is it? - All in Dutch, yes.

0:09:22 > 0:09:24But it was 2.5 hours long.

0:09:24 > 0:09:27He said, "If we just did the games,

0:09:27 > 0:09:30"do you think we could do that in 45 minutes?"

0:09:30 > 0:09:32So I said, "More like 55."

0:09:32 > 0:09:35I said, "But then I think it would get a chance."

0:09:44 > 0:09:46# Life is the name of the game

0:09:46 > 0:09:48# And I want to play the game with you

0:09:50 > 0:09:53# Life can be terribly tame

0:09:53 > 0:09:56# If you don't play the game with two

0:09:59 > 0:10:03# And I want to play the game with you. #

0:10:03 > 0:10:05APPLAUSE

0:10:08 > 0:10:12I said to Jim Moir, "What kind of a rating are they expecting for this?"

0:10:12 > 0:10:16He said, "If they get about six for this..."

0:10:16 > 0:10:17- 6 million.- 6 million.

0:10:17 > 0:10:19Yes, I didn't mean six people!

0:10:19 > 0:10:21I've got more than that down my street.

0:10:21 > 0:10:22So, I said 6 million.

0:10:22 > 0:10:26He said, "They would be thrilled if they get that."

0:10:26 > 0:10:29- Nice to see you, to see you... - AUDIENCE: Nice!

0:10:29 > 0:10:33Oh, yes. 54 minutes of fun and frolics!

0:10:33 > 0:10:36And that's difficult to say if you haven't had a drink.

0:10:36 > 0:10:40So we did it and, as he predicted, we got about 6 million,

0:10:40 > 0:10:426.5 million for it.

0:10:42 > 0:10:46In the early evening of its first outing, it did modestly.

0:10:46 > 0:10:48You are absolutely right, my love,

0:10:48 > 0:10:51and I'm glad you changed your mind, because it was Oliver Hardy.

0:10:51 > 0:10:53LAUGHTER

0:10:55 > 0:10:58And then it gradually grew and grew and grew.

0:10:58 > 0:11:03And after six, seven weeks, we were getting 14, nearly.

0:11:03 > 0:11:05Have a twirl, have a twirl.

0:11:14 > 0:11:17It became an absolute rating winner.

0:11:17 > 0:11:20You were a schoolmaster, teaching history and English.

0:11:20 > 0:11:23- Are you interested in history? - Oh, love history.- Old things?- Yes.

0:11:23 > 0:11:26Well, some of your jokes are a bit like that, aren't they?

0:11:26 > 0:11:28LAUGHTER

0:11:32 > 0:11:36From then on, we had an unbelievably strong Saturday night,

0:11:36 > 0:11:40because The Generation Game was at the centre of it.

0:11:40 > 0:11:43The Generation Game was a banker, and around The Generation Game,

0:11:43 > 0:11:45you could build the rest of the evening.

0:11:45 > 0:11:47Right, let's get started then, shall we?

0:11:51 > 0:11:53It was a blockbuster.

0:11:55 > 0:11:58- You'll be telling me you've heard a voice from the other side.- I have.

0:11:58 > 0:11:59I have!

0:11:59 > 0:12:01It was Lew Grade, but the money was no good.

0:12:04 > 0:12:05Oh, how awful.

0:12:05 > 0:12:07I like you.

0:12:07 > 0:12:10Orson Welles, thank you very much indeed. Thank you.

0:12:10 > 0:12:13APPLAUSE

0:12:14 > 0:12:20The BBC had built up an arsenal of stars.

0:12:23 > 0:12:27And so to our first contender. Good evening. Your name, please.

0:12:27 > 0:12:29- Good evening.- In the first heat,

0:12:29 > 0:12:32your chosen subject was answering questions before they were asked.

0:12:32 > 0:12:34This time, you have chosen to answer the question before last

0:12:34 > 0:12:36each time, is that correct?

0:12:36 > 0:12:37Charlie Smithers.

0:12:40 > 0:12:44And your time starts now. What is palaeontology?

0:12:44 > 0:12:45Yes, absolutely correct.

0:12:46 > 0:12:50What's the name of the directory that lists members of the peerage?

0:12:50 > 0:12:53A study of old fossils.

0:12:53 > 0:12:55One of the biggest pieces of armament

0:12:55 > 0:12:58in the BBC's Saturday night weaponry was The Two Ronnies.

0:12:58 > 0:13:02They had actually been with ITV, they were under contract to ITV.

0:13:04 > 0:13:09Bill Cotton and I sat at the Sunday Night at the Palladium.

0:13:09 > 0:13:10There was a BAFTA show on.

0:13:10 > 0:13:14And it went wrong, there was a bit of a breakdown, we had to fill in.

0:13:14 > 0:13:15You and Ronnie went out and filled.

0:13:15 > 0:13:16That's right.

0:13:16 > 0:13:19And what's-his-name was sitting next to Bill Cotton.

0:13:19 > 0:13:20- Paul Fox.- Yes.

0:13:20 > 0:13:24You should be sitting here! Paul Fox.

0:13:24 > 0:13:25And Bill lent to me

0:13:25 > 0:13:29and said, "How would you like to have those two chaps on BBC One?"

0:13:29 > 0:13:32I said, "Yes, please, but aren't they under the contract to LWT?"

0:13:32 > 0:13:35And Bill said, "You leave that to me."

0:13:35 > 0:13:39And on Monday morning, he went to work and found that, in fact,

0:13:39 > 0:13:41The Two Ronnies had ended their contract with LWT

0:13:41 > 0:13:42and signed them up.

0:13:42 > 0:13:44APPLAUSE

0:13:46 > 0:13:49Thank you. Good evening and welcome to the show.

0:13:49 > 0:13:51I must say it's very nice to be with you.

0:13:51 > 0:13:54We decided actually to call the series The Two Arthurs.

0:13:54 > 0:13:56But then we thought, that wouldn't work

0:13:56 > 0:13:58because Ronnie Barker isn't called Arthur.

0:13:58 > 0:14:00So we decided to call it A Ronnie And An Arthur.

0:14:00 > 0:14:03But then someone pointed out I'm not called Arthur, either,

0:14:03 > 0:14:07so we rather smartly thought up the title The Two Ronnies!

0:14:08 > 0:14:10Thank you, Arthur.

0:14:11 > 0:14:14So, it was Bill Cotton that could see you

0:14:14 > 0:14:17and Ronnie B could probably carry a whole show,

0:14:17 > 0:14:20- which you hadn't done... - No, that's right.

0:14:20 > 0:14:22- ..up to that point. - No, that's absolutely right.

0:14:22 > 0:14:26- And ITV didn't really understand what they had, did they?- No, no.

0:14:26 > 0:14:27Not really.

0:14:27 > 0:14:31- Just been up the... - Up club?- No.- Dogs?- No.

0:14:34 > 0:14:38- Fish shop?- No.- Doctors?- Doctors! Doctors, just been up the doctors.

0:14:38 > 0:14:39LAUGHTER

0:14:42 > 0:14:45- Only I've been having a bit of trouble with my...- Chest?- No.

0:14:45 > 0:14:49- Ears?- No.- Water Works?- No.

0:14:49 > 0:14:51- Wife.- Oh, wife.

0:14:53 > 0:14:57Did you feel part of an enterprise that was

0:14:57 > 0:14:59really at the top of its game?

0:14:59 > 0:15:01I don't think we looked over our shoulder very much,

0:15:01 > 0:15:06but I did feel we thought we were in the first division.

0:15:06 > 0:15:08Next week, we'll meet a man

0:15:08 > 0:15:11who crossed a feather with a lady contortionist

0:15:11 > 0:15:14and got a girl who could tickle her own fancy.

0:15:14 > 0:15:15LAUGHTER

0:15:17 > 0:15:19And we'll talk to an interior decorator

0:15:19 > 0:15:22who crossed an elephant with an Axminster rug

0:15:22 > 0:15:24and got a big thick pile on his carpet.

0:15:24 > 0:15:27That Bill Cotton Saturday night was...

0:15:27 > 0:15:30I still have nightmares about it!

0:15:30 > 0:15:32Where were you at that time?

0:15:32 > 0:15:34I was on the receiving end at ITV

0:15:34 > 0:15:38and it was a dagger in my heart every Saturday night.

0:15:38 > 0:15:41We had what was known in the trade as channel rejection.

0:15:41 > 0:15:43Couldn't get arrested!

0:15:43 > 0:15:46I think the test card would have beaten us in those days.

0:15:46 > 0:15:49- And now, it's good night from me. - And it's good night from him. Good night.

0:15:51 > 0:15:54The '70s saw the BBC dominant.

0:15:54 > 0:15:56In The Two Ronnies, they'd created

0:15:56 > 0:16:00the most successful Saturday night double act of all time,

0:16:00 > 0:16:03and they'd snatched them from ITV.

0:16:04 > 0:16:06Then again, two can play at that game.

0:16:08 > 0:16:10# I don't know where you are

0:16:10 > 0:16:12# You may be near or far

0:16:12 > 0:16:15# So let's get the network together

0:16:15 > 0:16:18# It's Saturday night! #

0:16:18 > 0:16:22I think we both know that when an artist decides to make a move,

0:16:22 > 0:16:25there is no persuading them otherwise.

0:16:25 > 0:16:30# It's Saturday night! It's a turn on

0:16:30 > 0:16:31# It's a party... #

0:16:31 > 0:16:33When he walked into the studio on the first day,

0:16:33 > 0:16:38I got the entire crew wearing sweaters with welcome to LWT.

0:16:39 > 0:16:43# Remember on ITV We're the channel you get for free. #

0:16:43 > 0:16:47The audience all switched on for that first show.

0:16:47 > 0:16:51I sent a bottle of champagne down to you to congratulate you.

0:16:51 > 0:16:53# I can't see you but you can see me!

0:16:53 > 0:16:56# On the network every Saturday night!

0:16:58 > 0:17:01# Get the whole of the network together tonight. #

0:17:03 > 0:17:06The cornerstone - I won't call it a fixture...

0:17:06 > 0:17:08No, goodness, a better word.

0:17:08 > 0:17:11The fixture of Saturday night is The Gen Game,

0:17:11 > 0:17:16and then you get a call from ITV, from someone, I can't remember who.

0:17:16 > 0:17:19He looked a bit like you, actually.

0:17:19 > 0:17:21Jerry Springer, probably!

0:17:21 > 0:17:24And you'd come to see me to try to inveigle me

0:17:24 > 0:17:26over to ITV to do this other show.

0:17:31 > 0:17:34At the time, I thought The Generation Game

0:17:34 > 0:17:35had run its length.

0:17:35 > 0:17:37It felt a bit stale.

0:17:37 > 0:17:40I thought, if we do the potter's wheel one more time,

0:17:40 > 0:17:41I'll get on it myself.

0:17:45 > 0:17:51The promise is we're going to do a show showing all Bruce's talent.

0:17:51 > 0:17:54- Bruce's Big Night. - It was a multi-formatted show.

0:17:54 > 0:17:56There was a game show, guest artist,

0:17:56 > 0:18:00sitcom and then Bruce would follow that with an interview.

0:18:00 > 0:18:01Am I still here?

0:18:03 > 0:18:04You had made him an offer

0:18:04 > 0:18:08which absolutely was in tune with

0:18:08 > 0:18:10what he wanted to do on television.

0:18:10 > 0:18:13He wanted to be the great entertainer,

0:18:13 > 0:18:15which, indeed, he is.

0:18:19 > 0:18:22Thank you. Thank you very much indeed.

0:18:22 > 0:18:26How kind. Thank you. Good evening, ladies, gentlemen, children.

0:18:26 > 0:18:29- Nice to see you, to see you... AUDIENCE:- Nice!

0:18:30 > 0:18:33I'd been trying to get Bruce to ITV for a long time, for two reasons.

0:18:33 > 0:18:38One, huge, public, Saturday-night-proven star.

0:18:38 > 0:18:41Secondly, the added benefit that The Generation Game would

0:18:41 > 0:18:44probably collapse without him.

0:18:44 > 0:18:48From your point of view, you get the news Bruce is leaving.

0:18:48 > 0:18:51Do we kill the show, or who do we get?

0:18:51 > 0:18:53A guy called Tony, my AP,

0:18:53 > 0:18:55said, "Come and have a look at this Larry Grayson."

0:18:55 > 0:18:58I went to see him in Great Yarmouth. I thought, "Maybe, maybe."

0:18:58 > 0:19:01I liked him. He could talk to people.

0:19:01 > 0:19:04Do you know, I can't tell you how thrilled I am to be here

0:19:04 > 0:19:06on the game.

0:19:06 > 0:19:08Because... No, listen.

0:19:08 > 0:19:09Riff-raff.

0:19:09 > 0:19:12So, stand by, studio, from the top.

0:19:12 > 0:19:15Bruce knew a moment, how to get it.

0:19:15 > 0:19:17I think that probably looks all right.

0:19:17 > 0:19:21Whereas Larry was surprised by the moment. He was vulnerable.

0:19:21 > 0:19:22And that was a success.

0:19:29 > 0:19:35You were part of the young team that were trying to crack Saturday night.

0:19:35 > 0:19:37Were you aware of that tension and pressure?

0:19:37 > 0:19:39I was aware of the importance.

0:19:39 > 0:19:41I think from about June that year,

0:19:41 > 0:19:44I did nothing except do this show and sleep.

0:19:44 > 0:19:47I had no life at all, such was the pressure on me.

0:19:47 > 0:19:51I'm not complaining, I'm just saying it was a giant, giant undertaking.

0:19:51 > 0:19:53It took over your life completely.

0:19:53 > 0:19:57I'm so thrilled, because the ITV mafia

0:19:57 > 0:20:00have all got together to make sure that this show

0:20:00 > 0:20:03goes out to all the regions at all the same time,

0:20:03 > 0:20:05which is marvellous, you know.

0:20:05 > 0:20:08There were a number of producers, led by David Bell,

0:20:08 > 0:20:10who was the head of entertainment.

0:20:10 > 0:20:12The pressure level got to be so great

0:20:12 > 0:20:14that when we were in the studio,

0:20:14 > 0:20:16there was no script, there was nothing.

0:20:16 > 0:20:19It was like directing a current affairs programme.

0:20:19 > 0:20:22There was a producer and people standing behind me, saying,

0:20:22 > 0:20:23"He's going to put a hat on,

0:20:23 > 0:20:27"He's going to walk down stage then he'll pick up the thing...

0:20:27 > 0:20:28"Camera three, two... Get a light..."

0:20:28 > 0:20:31And I thought, "This is dreadful. What are we doing?"

0:20:31 > 0:20:33Making it up as you go along.

0:20:33 > 0:20:35Truly making it up as it went along

0:20:35 > 0:20:38to the extent that at the end of the second show,

0:20:38 > 0:20:41I said to David, "I want to resign."

0:20:41 > 0:20:44And he said, "That's just as well, I was just about to fire you!"

0:20:45 > 0:20:48- It was a great thrill. - It was. Well, to...

0:20:48 > 0:20:50- Good night, lads. - LAUGHTER

0:20:50 > 0:20:52APPLAUSE

0:20:52 > 0:20:54Was it, uh...

0:20:54 > 0:20:56Was it something we said?

0:20:56 > 0:20:59APPLAUSE

0:21:00 > 0:21:02Sam...

0:21:03 > 0:21:05It could have been worse - it could have been them.

0:21:05 > 0:21:07'The show, I thought,'

0:21:07 > 0:21:09had so much potential

0:21:09 > 0:21:12and I thought it had so many good things in it.

0:21:12 > 0:21:16I tell you something, Parkinson's never done this, has he?

0:21:16 > 0:21:17Eh?! Cor!

0:21:17 > 0:21:20- This is great. - Have you heard of Parkinson?- No, no.

0:21:20 > 0:21:22Is it like a disease?

0:21:22 > 0:21:25LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:21:27 > 0:21:30Yes! It IS like a disease

0:21:30 > 0:21:32we get every Saturday night!

0:21:34 > 0:21:37The newspapers, it was David and Goliath.

0:21:37 > 0:21:40# It's a little bit funny... #

0:21:40 > 0:21:42- It certainly is! - LAUGHTER

0:21:42 > 0:21:44Bruce versus Larry.

0:21:44 > 0:21:46What a gay day!

0:21:46 > 0:21:48Larry was the underdog...

0:21:48 > 0:21:50Not for long, he wasn't!

0:21:50 > 0:21:52DRUMS STRIKE UP

0:21:52 > 0:21:54BRASS PLAYS

0:21:54 > 0:21:57LAUGHTER

0:21:57 > 0:22:02Bruce was moved to LWT, didn't meet with the greatest of success,

0:22:02 > 0:22:05whereas his replacement, Larry Grayson,

0:22:05 > 0:22:09was an immediate Cinderella in the shoe, superb fit

0:22:09 > 0:22:12and took us to the races yet again.

0:22:12 > 0:22:15LAUGHTER

0:22:15 > 0:22:17There's something coming up in the middle.

0:22:17 > 0:22:19It looks like a lighthouse!

0:22:19 > 0:22:23It was a real demonstration

0:22:23 > 0:22:25of the Saturday night ratings war, wasn't it?

0:22:25 > 0:22:28I think it was also a demonstration that a format

0:22:28 > 0:22:29as good as The Generation Game is

0:22:29 > 0:22:32so strong in its own merit that you

0:22:32 > 0:22:34can often change the host,

0:22:34 > 0:22:37so don't think that you can leave and it will die,

0:22:37 > 0:22:39because we find another host.

0:22:39 > 0:22:43Different, admittedly, but the format was so strong,

0:22:43 > 0:22:46The Generation Game, and there was a press,

0:22:46 > 0:22:50saying, "I'm leaving, the nation will follow me..."

0:22:50 > 0:22:52And the nation didn't.

0:22:52 > 0:22:56It's time for questions again, I always look forward to this,

0:22:56 > 0:22:57it's question time...

0:22:57 > 0:23:00I'm afraid the audience declined,

0:23:00 > 0:23:02quite rapidly and quite seriously.

0:23:02 > 0:23:06The press couldn't wait for it.

0:23:06 > 0:23:08Began to say, "Didn't he do badly?"

0:23:08 > 0:23:12My family and I have been watching your show for the last few weeks

0:23:12 > 0:23:15and there seems to be an awful lot of press criticism

0:23:15 > 0:23:19and headlines just lately - how do you feel about this?

0:23:20 > 0:23:21Well, erm...

0:23:21 > 0:23:23LAUGHTER

0:23:23 > 0:23:25- Would you really like me to answer? - ALL: Yes!

0:23:25 > 0:23:30The press were out to get us. It was a real knife in the back.

0:23:30 > 0:23:33Not in the back, in the front. You know, where they could SEE it.

0:23:33 > 0:23:36You get criticised if you try something new, you get criticised

0:23:36 > 0:23:38if you do the same old thing.

0:23:38 > 0:23:40So we thought we'd try it.

0:23:40 > 0:23:42It wasn't as we thought it would be.

0:23:42 > 0:23:44Why didn't we think of it?

0:23:44 > 0:23:49The public likes to know where it is with its programming.

0:23:49 > 0:23:51Here, you didn't get a variety of programmes,

0:23:51 > 0:23:53you got a variety of variety.

0:23:53 > 0:23:56It was just one person, so...

0:23:56 > 0:24:00With all of that pre-press, it made people think that

0:24:00 > 0:24:01when the show started,

0:24:01 > 0:24:04that glitter was going to come out of the set and it was going to be

0:24:04 > 0:24:07SO sensational, and it's like everything else -

0:24:07 > 0:24:10if people tell you, "Oh, you MUST go and see that."

0:24:10 > 0:24:12When you see it yourself, you're a bit disappointed.

0:24:12 > 0:24:14The only thing you can truly believe,

0:24:14 > 0:24:18look at the top on the right-hand corner, you will see the date.

0:24:19 > 0:24:22APPLAUSE

0:24:24 > 0:24:26Bruce's Big Night certainly wasn't perfect,

0:24:26 > 0:24:29but it was nowhere near the ratings disaster

0:24:29 > 0:24:32that the newspapers would have us believe.

0:24:32 > 0:24:34It may have only run one season,

0:24:34 > 0:24:37but it did demonstrate to the ITV network as a whole

0:24:37 > 0:24:40that it was possible to challenge the BBC's dominance

0:24:40 > 0:24:42on Saturday night.

0:24:43 > 0:24:46And we weren't quite finished yet.

0:24:46 > 0:24:49MATCH OF THE DAY THEME TUNE

0:24:50 > 0:24:53- Stand by, studio.- Good luck, Jim.

0:24:53 > 0:24:56Big moment for Saturday night, coming up.

0:24:56 > 0:24:59Three, two, one...

0:25:01 > 0:25:04What's happening there, then?

0:25:06 > 0:25:09It was quite a cause celebre, wasn't it?

0:25:09 > 0:25:12I mean, it was front-page news, wasn't it?

0:25:12 > 0:25:14Well, it was, Michael, because you promoted it.

0:25:14 > 0:25:17You and John Bromley promoted it like mad,

0:25:17 > 0:25:19then it became a major event.

0:25:19 > 0:25:21There was deep irritation at the BBC.

0:25:21 > 0:25:26While you were running BBC Sport, some young shaver

0:25:26 > 0:25:28trying to make his way in the world

0:25:28 > 0:25:32decided to steal Match Of The Day from BBC

0:25:32 > 0:25:35after many, many, many years of it

0:25:35 > 0:25:37being a fixture of the Saturday night schedule.

0:25:37 > 0:25:39You had no inkling of it, did you?

0:25:39 > 0:25:42I had no inkling and I haven't forgiven the young shaver yet,

0:25:42 > 0:25:44by the way, but...

0:25:44 > 0:25:46If I get his name, I'll let you know!

0:25:46 > 0:25:49I got a call from the secretary of the Football League,

0:25:49 > 0:25:51Alan Hardaker, saying, "Hello, Alan -

0:25:51 > 0:25:54"you're not going to like this.

0:25:54 > 0:25:56"ITV have got the football."

0:25:56 > 0:25:59You - bless your little heart -

0:25:59 > 0:26:02knocked on my door and said,

0:26:02 > 0:26:05"John Bromley, who's head of sport for us, and I,

0:26:05 > 0:26:06"have managed to do a deal

0:26:06 > 0:26:11"with the Football League to have exclusive coverage

0:26:11 > 0:26:15"of league football for three years.

0:26:16 > 0:26:18"Would you support us?"

0:26:18 > 0:26:22"I'LL support you, but we've got to get the board to support you,

0:26:22 > 0:26:25"we've got to get the other companies..."

0:26:25 > 0:26:28- The network. - "I've got to get the IBA to agree."

0:26:28 > 0:26:32And when the BBC found out, they went berserk.

0:26:32 > 0:26:37I remember I put the phone down in shock, called Alasdair Milne,

0:26:37 > 0:26:40who was my new Director of Television

0:26:40 > 0:26:41and he said, "Come over, boy".

0:26:41 > 0:26:44We went over and on the way over, I was thinking,

0:26:44 > 0:26:47"They're not going to get away with this." It created a war.

0:26:47 > 0:26:51JOHN CRAVEN: The BBC announced today it's taking legal action to try

0:26:51 > 0:26:56and stop a £5 million deal between ITV and the Football League.

0:26:56 > 0:27:00Because of the way the deal was done, there is now concern

0:27:00 > 0:27:03about negotiations for televising other sports.

0:27:03 > 0:27:05There's a certain amount of bitterness

0:27:05 > 0:27:07- behind this wrangle, isn't there? - Not really.

0:27:07 > 0:27:11A 432% increase, which was the result of London Weekend's bid

0:27:11 > 0:27:14for league football, didn't amuse me.

0:27:14 > 0:27:16We had a civil suit,

0:27:16 > 0:27:19we had a competition complaint

0:27:19 > 0:27:22and the European courts.

0:27:22 > 0:27:23European courts, everything.

0:27:23 > 0:27:26- Fighting on all fronts.- And...

0:27:26 > 0:27:28Seemed like a good idea at the time!

0:27:29 > 0:27:32And questions asked in the House - both sides,

0:27:32 > 0:27:35Labour and Conservatives having a go at LWT.

0:27:35 > 0:27:38Everybody was attacking us.

0:27:38 > 0:27:43ITV moguls and BBC moguls, we sat over a table insulting each other.

0:27:45 > 0:27:46Happy days!

0:27:46 > 0:27:48Eventually, wiser heads prevail...

0:27:48 > 0:27:51Well, they sent for two civilised people

0:27:51 > 0:27:54and sorted the thing out in a civilised way.

0:27:54 > 0:27:58And as I was the can-carrier for the company that had done all this -

0:27:58 > 0:28:00thank you very much, Michael -

0:28:00 > 0:28:06I had to have a meeting with Alasdair Milne, who hated ITV,

0:28:06 > 0:28:08and I never discovered why.

0:28:08 > 0:28:10It was a terrible day,

0:28:10 > 0:28:13it was dark and stormy and rainy outside,

0:28:13 > 0:28:15I had a heavy cold.

0:28:15 > 0:28:20There came a point after about three hours of this

0:28:20 > 0:28:23when I really thought, "I'm going to have to give in",

0:28:23 > 0:28:24but he blinked first

0:28:24 > 0:28:28and the Milne-Tesler agreement was signed.

0:28:28 > 0:28:29Good evening to you.

0:28:35 > 0:28:39I went for dinner that night, a great relief.

0:28:41 > 0:28:44Instead of having a glass of champagne to celebrate,

0:28:44 > 0:28:45I needed a glass of brandy,

0:28:45 > 0:28:47because it really had taken it out of me.

0:28:50 > 0:28:53I had two sips of the brandy and then the sound went.

0:28:53 > 0:28:57I...rested my hands on the table.

0:28:57 > 0:28:59A young couple were having dinner

0:28:59 > 0:29:04and I said, "It's all right, I'm not drunk, I just feel..."

0:29:05 > 0:29:10And as I said that, I saw members of staff walking towards me

0:29:10 > 0:29:12in slow motion

0:29:12 > 0:29:13and then I blacked out.

0:29:13 > 0:29:17I came to, surrounded by faces looking down.

0:29:17 > 0:29:19I looked up and said, "Where am I?"

0:29:21 > 0:29:24"And where is Michael Grade, who got me into this?"

0:29:27 > 0:29:28And that's it for tonight -

0:29:28 > 0:29:31I hope you've enjoyed our first Saturday night of The Big Match.

0:29:33 > 0:29:36You had a temporary victory, but we did get Match Of The Day back.

0:29:36 > 0:29:38- Eventually.- Eventually, yes.

0:29:38 > 0:29:40It was a dishonourable draw, if you like!

0:29:43 > 0:29:47More dishonour that side of the table than this side of the table!

0:29:47 > 0:29:50- You may say that, I couldn't possibly comment!- No!

0:29:52 > 0:29:55In 1981, a new show arrived

0:29:55 > 0:29:59that wiped the smile off the faces of those BBC Saturday night bosses.

0:30:00 > 0:30:04The irony was they'd got there first.

0:30:04 > 0:30:09Ladies and gentlemen, the star of the show, Mr Paul Daniels!

0:30:09 > 0:30:12Read all about it!

0:30:12 > 0:30:14Get your papers here!

0:30:14 > 0:30:15Would you believe that?

0:30:15 > 0:30:19There was this wacko genius called Jeremy Beadle.

0:30:19 > 0:30:22Please meet Jeremy Beadle and David Copperfield.

0:30:24 > 0:30:27Jeremy came up with this idea -

0:30:27 > 0:30:31most of Jeremy's ideas were founded on Candid Camera.

0:30:31 > 0:30:34Do you always go around in Egham being interviewed

0:30:34 > 0:30:36and talking into carrots?

0:30:36 > 0:30:37No, of course not!

0:30:37 > 0:30:39No? Well, you're doing that now!

0:30:41 > 0:30:43We just gotcha!

0:30:43 > 0:30:47We went out for a couple of days, I think it was,

0:30:47 > 0:30:50and we shot wacko stuff.

0:30:50 > 0:30:55Basically, we want you to stand in and then you'll be doing

0:30:55 > 0:30:57a love scene with Fiona Richmond.

0:30:59 > 0:31:03So we brought it back to the BBC and this is absolutely true,

0:31:03 > 0:31:06the then Head of Light Entertainment looked at us

0:31:06 > 0:31:09and said, "Oh, this is far too belly laugh for the BBC".

0:31:11 > 0:31:13LOUD RASPBERRY

0:31:15 > 0:31:18Jeremy Fox had bought a show called The People Show,

0:31:18 > 0:31:22which was about four people just doing silly things in America.

0:31:22 > 0:31:26Then I had been looking at a show called Truth Or Consequences,

0:31:26 > 0:31:28out of which came Candid Camera.

0:31:28 > 0:31:32So we started to put this show together.

0:31:32 > 0:31:36One night, the radio announcer said, "That'll be good for a laugh"

0:31:36 > 0:31:39and I thought, I'll write that down, that's a nice title.

0:31:39 > 0:31:42Got in the next morning and said, "Anyway, I got the title for

0:31:42 > 0:31:44"the show", so I got my scrappy bit of paper out and said,

0:31:44 > 0:31:50"Good... G..G-G... Good? Game, game for a laugh.

0:31:50 > 0:31:54It came out of a misunderstanding.

0:31:54 > 0:31:58Game For A Laugh, the show where the people are the stars!

0:31:58 > 0:32:00This is how it happened.

0:32:00 > 0:32:03I was at LWT, London Weekend Television,

0:32:03 > 0:32:07and I was asked to go on a thing called Punchlines

0:32:07 > 0:32:11and while I was doing that, the producer of it, Alan Boyd,

0:32:11 > 0:32:15said to me, "If I asked you to jump out of an aeroplane, would you?"

0:32:15 > 0:32:18- I said yes and I got the job on Game For A Laugh.- Henry Kelly.

0:32:18 > 0:32:19APPLAUSE

0:32:21 > 0:32:23Jeremy Beadle...

0:32:23 > 0:32:25APPLAUSE

0:32:25 > 0:32:27Sarah Kennedy...

0:32:27 > 0:32:30APPLAUSE

0:32:30 > 0:32:32..and Matthew Kelly.

0:32:32 > 0:32:36Then of course, I HAD to jump out of an aeroplane for Game For A Laugh

0:32:36 > 0:32:38and I broke my leg and I became famous.

0:32:42 > 0:32:43Hello!

0:32:43 > 0:32:45That Saturday night show,

0:32:45 > 0:32:50Game For A Laugh, became the Saturday night show to watch.

0:32:50 > 0:32:53What you're about to see is absolutely sensational.

0:32:53 > 0:32:57But rather than explain it, the best thing to do is just watch it.

0:32:57 > 0:33:02We filmed a famous sequence in show one, which was a car wreck.

0:33:02 > 0:33:04I'm not going to be able to get out of there, am I?

0:33:04 > 0:33:06The guy was in on it and the wife wasn't.

0:33:08 > 0:33:11The whole point was two cars were parked too close, he said,

0:33:11 > 0:33:14"There's a huge big digger, I can move the digger, I'll get in" and of course...

0:33:20 > 0:33:25What I didn't like was, the idea that other people were being made fun of.

0:33:25 > 0:33:27And I said right at the beginning,

0:33:27 > 0:33:29"You can't do that to people, it's terrible.

0:33:29 > 0:33:33Alan Boyd said to me, "Just watch when that woman

0:33:33 > 0:33:36"comes into the studio, she's going to be a star."

0:33:36 > 0:33:37And she was.

0:33:39 > 0:33:42Karen, what on earth was running through your mind?

0:33:42 > 0:33:45I thought, who was going to pay for the car?!

0:33:45 > 0:33:48That piece of tape is historical

0:33:48 > 0:33:50because that was the moment,

0:33:50 > 0:33:52the tipping point when the nation who saw that show said,

0:33:52 > 0:33:55"What a silly show, when you can wreck car",

0:33:55 > 0:34:00while the ratings were, was it 18 million or something? Monster.

0:34:00 > 0:34:02And everybody talked about it.

0:34:02 > 0:34:05The point was, everybody was talking about this daft show with

0:34:05 > 0:34:06these four young presenters.

0:34:06 > 0:34:09Just pop your hand in.

0:34:09 > 0:34:12And of course it became a title that the nation used

0:34:12 > 0:34:14out of context of the programme.

0:34:14 > 0:34:17The government were "game for a laugh".

0:34:17 > 0:34:18Is he there?

0:34:18 > 0:34:22LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:34:22 > 0:34:25And of course what Game For A Laugh did,

0:34:25 > 0:34:27it did for The Generation Game, didn't it?

0:34:27 > 0:34:29I was killing my old show.

0:34:29 > 0:34:32I wasn't scheduling it opposite The Generation Game, I think

0:34:32 > 0:34:35YOU were scheduling it opposite The Generation Game.

0:34:35 > 0:34:37I can always blame you for destroying my old baby!

0:34:37 > 0:34:40It seemed to be a big thing to beat The Generation Game.

0:34:40 > 0:34:43Which I quite liked, you know, and I was quite proud of.

0:34:43 > 0:34:48What didn't make me proud was that Larry Grayson gave up.

0:34:48 > 0:34:53And the generation went away. And I thought that was very sad.

0:34:53 > 0:34:56Did you ever dream, when you set out on that path,

0:34:56 > 0:35:01that you'd be a key figure in the ratings battle of Saturday

0:35:01 > 0:35:03night between ITV and the BBC?

0:35:03 > 0:35:07And that you'd play a pivotal role in transforming

0:35:07 > 0:35:11the fortunes of ITV on Saturday night?

0:35:11 > 0:35:14- Never occurred to you, did it? - I just wanted a job, really.

0:35:14 > 0:35:17Please, join us again next week when we very much hope that

0:35:17 > 0:35:19- you'll be watching us.- Watching you.

0:35:19 > 0:35:22- Watching us.- Watching you!

0:35:22 > 0:35:23- ALL:- Good night!

0:35:23 > 0:35:27Game For A Laugh, you really wanted Terry Wogan.

0:35:27 > 0:35:31Wow, you've been doing some research! Um, yes, I did.

0:35:31 > 0:35:33Michael Grade, yourself, kept nagging me

0:35:33 > 0:35:36that you shouldn't want four unknowns.

0:35:36 > 0:35:39You said to me, "Are you sure, Alan?

0:35:39 > 0:35:41"They're not very fresh or pretty.

0:35:41 > 0:35:44"Dress them up more attractively, put better suits on them.

0:35:44 > 0:35:48"Shave Beadle's beard off. Can we sort of..." Whatever.

0:35:48 > 0:35:51"What about thinking again?"

0:35:51 > 0:35:55He wanted to take me to ITV and I wouldn't go,

0:35:55 > 0:35:57for Game For A Laugh.

0:35:57 > 0:36:01- He's now moved to ITV, working for me...- Yeah.

0:36:01 > 0:36:04And what does he say?

0:36:05 > 0:36:09He says, "This crowd have got a lot more money than the BBC,

0:36:09 > 0:36:12"it's going to be great to do". But I just thought...

0:36:12 > 0:36:13Um, probably not a good idea.

0:36:13 > 0:36:15He turned you down.

0:36:16 > 0:36:18Yes.

0:36:18 > 0:36:22- I can't remember that much about it, but...- He turned you down.

0:36:27 > 0:36:32Michael Parkinson decided that his career lay in Australia.

0:36:32 > 0:36:36- He was leaving.- After 11 years, I've decided to get a proper job.

0:36:36 > 0:36:41Bill Cotton, who was a great old pal of both yours and mine,

0:36:41 > 0:36:46decided in his foolishness that I should take over the Saturday night.

0:36:46 > 0:36:50- You did ask questions that were really... Unseemly.- Saucy.

0:36:50 > 0:36:52Yes, saucy. You said...

0:36:52 > 0:36:54You're a fine one to talk.

0:36:54 > 0:36:57Well, I mean I'm vulgar, so I can say anything.

0:36:57 > 0:36:59The Saturday night thing started

0:36:59 > 0:37:03and it was simple enough - you just talk to people.

0:37:03 > 0:37:04What about you?

0:37:04 > 0:37:06I admit it. LAUGHTER

0:37:06 > 0:37:08- I admit it.- But look,

0:37:08 > 0:37:10you don't need a casting couch.

0:37:10 > 0:37:13With your attraction, you could have got the girls without it,

0:37:13 > 0:37:14and yet why use it?

0:37:14 > 0:37:16You'll pay for that!

0:37:16 > 0:37:17LAUGHTER

0:37:17 > 0:37:19That hasn't gone unnoticed!

0:37:21 > 0:37:23I like you, I swear to God.

0:37:23 > 0:37:27Game For A Laugh went on to become quite a thorn in the BBC One

0:37:27 > 0:37:34ratings war, for many years, and you created another, quotes, in the nicest sense, "monster",

0:37:34 > 0:37:38when you had Cilla Black on the Saturday night show.

0:37:38 > 0:37:42She always gives me credit for that, but when she came on,

0:37:42 > 0:37:44she was terrific.

0:37:44 > 0:37:46# Step inside, love

0:37:46 > 0:37:49# And stay

0:37:49 > 0:37:52# Step inside love, I want you to

0:37:52 > 0:37:54# Step inside love

0:37:54 > 0:37:57# You know I do, step inside love

0:37:57 > 0:38:00# I want you to

0:38:00 > 0:38:02# Stay. #

0:38:02 > 0:38:03She came on

0:38:03 > 0:38:06and she hadn't been singing for a while.

0:38:06 > 0:38:09And suddenly, as far as the British public were concerned,

0:38:09 > 0:38:10they rediscovered her.

0:38:10 > 0:38:13They rediscovered her Liverpudlian cheekiness.

0:38:13 > 0:38:16- I'm 40 this year.- Yeah.

0:38:16 > 0:38:19I'm not looking forward to my own 40th.

0:38:19 > 0:38:22I was going to ask you, can you remember when you were 40?

0:38:22 > 0:38:26Cilla is a very, very considerable piece of talent.

0:38:26 > 0:38:29She's been away for a bit, but she's everything - bubbly...

0:38:29 > 0:38:32But she's out of people's minds in the industry.

0:38:32 > 0:38:34She's not done anything for a while,

0:38:34 > 0:38:36she's not on the tip of anybody's lips.

0:38:36 > 0:38:40- Alan sees her on the Wogan show... - I thought, "Hm, that's interesting".

0:38:40 > 0:38:42You're just back from Australia. That's why you have the tan.

0:38:42 > 0:38:45Well, no - it was before Christmas, I was there in October.

0:38:45 > 0:38:48- That's make-up then, is it? - No, this is not make-up.

0:38:48 > 0:38:51I've got a solarium, you see.

0:38:51 > 0:38:54I've been keeping it up on the bed.

0:38:54 > 0:38:56LAUGHTER

0:38:57 > 0:39:01There was an immediate communication between her and her audience

0:39:01 > 0:39:06and that was ripe to be exploited.

0:39:06 > 0:39:11People said, "Cilla Black! Where's she been? Let's have her."

0:39:11 > 0:39:14They keep on saying to me in the street and in the butchers,

0:39:14 > 0:39:17you know, "When are you coming back on the telly?"

0:39:17 > 0:39:20I got a bit fed up, so when I was asked to do your show I thought,

0:39:20 > 0:39:24this is a really big opportunity to go on and enjoy myself.

0:39:24 > 0:39:27Alan is now head of entertainment at London weekend, he's in this fight

0:39:27 > 0:39:31with the BBC, he's got this dating show and he's looking for a host.

0:39:31 > 0:39:35I said, "What about Cilla?" I thought, hm - let's get her in.

0:39:35 > 0:39:37At that time, our schedules were

0:39:37 > 0:39:39so to speak full

0:39:39 > 0:39:44and I think perhaps we missed a trick in not

0:39:44 > 0:39:47seeing that she should have been another shot in the locker.

0:39:47 > 0:39:50If I had my way, of course we could sit here all night,

0:39:50 > 0:39:53with Cilla Black, and she probably would, as well.

0:39:53 > 0:39:57We did a pilot and John Birt nearly turned grey.

0:39:57 > 0:40:02Here was a rather sexy show coming on and John said,

0:40:02 > 0:40:04"I don't think we'll make it".

0:40:04 > 0:40:06And I said, "Come on, this is terrific".

0:40:08 > 0:40:10I then told a fib.

0:40:10 > 0:40:14I said, if you don't do it, the BBC, Noel Edmonds is about to do

0:40:14 > 0:40:19a dating segment and once he's done that dating segment, we've had it.

0:40:19 > 0:40:23THEME TUNE AND APPLAUSE

0:40:26 > 0:40:29Welcome, what a lovely welcome, thank you!

0:40:30 > 0:40:35Blind Date is launched to astonishing success,

0:40:35 > 0:40:37decimating the early evening for BBC.

0:40:37 > 0:40:39What do you do in Dorset, apart from doing...

0:40:39 > 0:40:41I'm a vision technician, Cilla.

0:40:41 > 0:40:43LAUGHTER

0:40:45 > 0:40:48I think you're having me on. What is a vision technician?

0:40:48 > 0:40:49It's a window cleaner.

0:40:49 > 0:40:51LAUGHTER

0:40:53 > 0:40:56What a lovely audience, much better than last week's!

0:40:56 > 0:40:58Cilla Black...

0:40:58 > 0:41:01- was a Saturday night phenomena.- Yes.

0:41:01 > 0:41:04The show was good, the format was good, everything.

0:41:04 > 0:41:05But SHE was special

0:41:05 > 0:41:08and the show without her would never be as special.

0:41:08 > 0:41:10What do you look for in your ideal woman?

0:41:10 > 0:41:13If it's somebody to settle down with, obviously well groomed,

0:41:13 > 0:41:16mature, attractive, good family background.

0:41:16 > 0:41:18If it's just the wild fling, someone a bit like yourself!

0:41:18 > 0:41:20She always says that I chose her

0:41:20 > 0:41:23because she was the least sexy person around.

0:41:23 > 0:41:26Not quite true, there's a hint of truth in it,

0:41:26 > 0:41:28because at the time, when John Birt was being very

0:41:28 > 0:41:33fussy about the dating prospect, I did say, she's not the most...

0:41:33 > 0:41:36She's not a sexy performer. She's a family performer.

0:41:36 > 0:41:40- Yes, she's the girl next door, isn't she?- There's a hint of truth...

0:41:40 > 0:41:43- She's a modern day Gracie Fields. - Correct.

0:41:43 > 0:41:44Come in, Laura!

0:41:58 > 0:41:59I feel sorry for you, I really do!

0:41:59 > 0:42:02He doesn't know what is letting himself in for!

0:42:02 > 0:42:05- On first impressions... - One hell of a time, baby!

0:42:07 > 0:42:12By the time I was very briefly minding the shop,

0:42:12 > 0:42:15it's looking a bit old-fashioned, the numbers are falling off,

0:42:15 > 0:42:18it's tried various things that shows do when they get to that,

0:42:18 > 0:42:21it's gone a bit more outrageous, it's tried to put gimmicks in,

0:42:21 > 0:42:23all these things you do which you should never do

0:42:23 > 0:42:28because they don't work and Cilla was deeply uncomfortable with them.

0:42:28 > 0:42:31The third thing that we decided, we'd done two amendments,

0:42:31 > 0:42:33why don't we do a live one?

0:42:33 > 0:42:37Hello and welcome to this very special live show and you know what,

0:42:37 > 0:42:39ladies and gentlemen?

0:42:39 > 0:42:41It is a very special live show,

0:42:41 > 0:42:47because this is going to be my very, very last series of Blind Date.

0:42:47 > 0:42:48ALL: Aww!

0:42:48 > 0:42:51- This is news to you? - Well, it wasn't news to me.

0:42:51 > 0:42:53It was news to me that she did it.

0:42:53 > 0:42:55What had happened, Michael, I had lunch with...

0:42:55 > 0:42:57By this time, her husband Bobby was dead,

0:42:57 > 0:43:00and Robert, the son, was managing her affairs.

0:43:00 > 0:43:04What I said to Robert was this, and he will, I hope, bear me out.

0:43:04 > 0:43:07I said look, Robert - I'm not telling you this is the last series,

0:43:07 > 0:43:10but you've got to start thinking that it might be.

0:43:10 > 0:43:13We've been given this chance, it's still not doing the numbers,

0:43:13 > 0:43:16I know your mum is not comfortable with these various changes.

0:43:16 > 0:43:18It's not a happy time for her.

0:43:18 > 0:43:21You might want to have a conversation with your mum

0:43:21 > 0:43:26over Christmas about what she might like to...do.

0:43:26 > 0:43:29Even though this is my last series...

0:43:29 > 0:43:30ALL: Aww!

0:43:30 > 0:43:34Isn't it a shame, I've had great fun for 18 years.

0:43:34 > 0:43:38He didn't say anything to me on the day of the live show, I was there...

0:43:38 > 0:43:41Standing at the back of the gallery when she came out and said it

0:43:41 > 0:43:42and of course there was pandemonium.

0:43:42 > 0:43:46I wasn't expecting Madam to say what she said at the beginning or

0:43:46 > 0:43:49- the end of the show, so... - CILLA:- Surprise, surprise!

0:43:49 > 0:43:50LAUGHTER

0:43:50 > 0:43:53However, given that she HAS said it, I just wanted to come out

0:43:53 > 0:43:56and ask you maybe, we're not prepared for this at all

0:43:56 > 0:44:00in the sense that we didn't know it was coming at this particular moment, we haven't got a

0:44:00 > 0:44:04party ready, champagne and so on, so can I ask you to substitute for us.

0:44:04 > 0:44:07This lady has been THE biggest star in British television for at

0:44:07 > 0:44:10least 25 years, I've worked with her at the BBC, I've worked with

0:44:10 > 0:44:14her at ITV, she is a phenomenon, thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

0:44:14 > 0:44:17'I was neither surprised, nor shocked, nor disappointed.'

0:44:17 > 0:44:19'I thought she'd made the right choice.'

0:44:19 > 0:44:23I thought it was a brilliant and bold move to do it exactly the way she had done it.

0:44:23 > 0:44:26If I helped in any way to plant that seed, I'm delighted.

0:44:26 > 0:44:29If I didn't, that's fine, it was her idea, it was a bloody good one.

0:44:30 > 0:44:33Thank you. Thank you.

0:44:33 > 0:44:37Blind Date and Game For A Laugh marked a massive shift.

0:44:37 > 0:44:41The audience itself were now the actual stars of Saturday

0:44:41 > 0:44:45night entertainment and ITV was dominant.

0:44:45 > 0:44:48The BBC had lost its Saturday night Mojo,

0:44:48 > 0:44:50but it wasn't going to give up without a fight.

0:44:50 > 0:44:56When I became Head of Variety in 1982,

0:44:56 > 0:44:59Des O'Connor decided to go to Thames,

0:44:59 > 0:45:04Mike Yarwood decided to go to Thames and Larry Grayson said,

0:45:04 > 0:45:07"I can't do The Generation Game any more".

0:45:07 > 0:45:11No pressure, no pressure. Been in the job a fortnight.

0:45:11 > 0:45:16The wonderful Jim Moir called me into his office one day

0:45:16 > 0:45:19and said, would I be interested in joining

0:45:19 > 0:45:23the Light Entertainment department, his department.

0:45:23 > 0:45:27And I'd always been mindful of the fact that people said it's

0:45:27 > 0:45:29one thing to be a success in children's television,

0:45:29 > 0:45:31it's another thing to get out of it.

0:45:36 > 0:45:40I'd stepped out of the safe world of children's TV, into...

0:45:40 > 0:45:43- ..the Saturday night ratings war. - The fire, yes.

0:45:43 > 0:45:46THEME TUNE

0:45:47 > 0:45:51The first series of Late Late Breakfast Show really did bomb

0:45:51 > 0:45:55and I was fearful that it was the end.

0:45:55 > 0:45:56Luckily, the BBC stuck with me

0:45:56 > 0:46:01and we tweaked it and it then started in the second run...

0:46:01 > 0:46:02Started to work.

0:46:02 > 0:46:07It did, and it started to get ITV interested in what

0:46:07 > 0:46:10we were doing, because we were up against Game For A Laugh.

0:46:10 > 0:46:13May we see your claim to fame?

0:46:13 > 0:46:14HE CHATTERS

0:46:16 > 0:46:18That was a cheeky monkey.

0:46:18 > 0:46:19LAUGHTER

0:46:19 > 0:46:22Ooh! Ooh!

0:46:24 > 0:46:26That was a chimp-pansy.

0:46:26 > 0:46:28LAUGHTER

0:46:28 > 0:46:31We were able to play around with the content of Late Late,

0:46:31 > 0:46:36so you do know in this ultracompetitive world,

0:46:36 > 0:46:40where the scheduler is moving you around, you know you can

0:46:40 > 0:46:42reconfigure the contents of the show.

0:46:42 > 0:46:45You're not very well known over here. Are you big down under?

0:46:45 > 0:46:47LAUGHTER

0:46:48 > 0:46:50What's that supposed to mean?

0:46:51 > 0:46:53Are you confident that you can win

0:46:53 > 0:46:55- the coveted prize next week?- Yeah.

0:46:55 > 0:46:58Well, it would be the ultimate Adelaide!

0:46:58 > 0:46:59HE GROANS

0:46:59 > 0:47:03Constantly gimmicks and games and interaction with the public,

0:47:03 > 0:47:05which was becoming more and more

0:47:05 > 0:47:07a part of what was needed.

0:47:07 > 0:47:09SHE "BLOWS" A TUNE

0:47:13 > 0:47:16- Wonderful!- And the show built and built, didn't it?

0:47:16 > 0:47:21Yes, I mean it became the big show that everybody wanted to be on.

0:47:21 > 0:47:24Good evening, Mr Dalglish. Good evening, Mr Johnston.

0:47:24 > 0:47:25Good evening, Mr Grobbelaar.

0:47:25 > 0:47:28This idea of "let's go live on a Saturday night,

0:47:28 > 0:47:31"let's start the evening off with a big live treat,

0:47:31 > 0:47:33"where everybody feels they're at a party..."

0:47:33 > 0:47:37You scored the third one, didn't you, that actually means that on goal difference,

0:47:37 > 0:47:39you are now top of the league, yes?

0:47:39 > 0:47:41If you say so, yeah!

0:47:43 > 0:47:46Well, I'm afraid that's all we've got time for...

0:47:53 > 0:47:58The decision to end the Late Late Breakfast Show was an easy decision

0:47:58 > 0:48:02after the tragic death of one of the participants.

0:48:02 > 0:48:04It was.

0:48:04 > 0:48:07It didn't take any time at all.

0:48:07 > 0:48:10The loss of a life

0:48:10 > 0:48:13could not be laughed away

0:48:13 > 0:48:15and really,

0:48:15 > 0:48:19it turned the brand toxic.

0:48:19 > 0:48:23It was a proper decision

0:48:23 > 0:48:25to end the show.

0:48:25 > 0:48:29I went in to the Television Centre to see Bill Cotton...

0:48:31 > 0:48:34And he said, "Look, I appreciate you will be thinking a lot

0:48:34 > 0:48:38"about your future and I think you came here today to resign".

0:48:38 > 0:48:42And I took an envelope out of my pocket and I said...

0:48:42 > 0:48:44He went, "We won't be needing that".

0:48:45 > 0:48:46THEME TUNE

0:48:46 > 0:48:49PHONE RINGS

0:48:57 > 0:49:00Noel's House Party came out of what?

0:49:01 > 0:49:06It was either Chablis or Chardonnay, I can't remember...which!

0:49:07 > 0:49:11I was then living in Devon - I'd bought this massive estate

0:49:11 > 0:49:15and I was chatting to Mike Leggo, the producer who'd come down

0:49:15 > 0:49:18and we were drinking wine in copious quantities...

0:49:18 > 0:49:20And the premise of the meeting was what,

0:49:20 > 0:49:22just to talk about ideas, or...?

0:49:22 > 0:49:24Yes, have a brain dump, to really try and...

0:49:24 > 0:49:27You know, how do we get a live show together?

0:49:27 > 0:49:30And I started talking about the fact that one day

0:49:30 > 0:49:33I wanted to do this big house up and it would be great to have house

0:49:33 > 0:49:36parties at the weekend. "Ooh, hang on..."

0:49:36 > 0:49:40And very quickly, surprisingly quickly, considering how it

0:49:40 > 0:49:45dominated Saturday nights for a decade, it just all came together.

0:49:45 > 0:49:50This was idiot bloke living in a large house alone,

0:49:50 > 0:49:54outside a village of the damned...

0:49:54 > 0:49:57Playing daft games in a party environment

0:49:57 > 0:50:00and famous people come to the door.

0:50:00 > 0:50:03- You make it sound irresistible.- It was.

0:50:03 > 0:50:08Mike and I go up to Jim Moir's office with a sheet of A4

0:50:08 > 0:50:10and he listens diligently and whatever.

0:50:10 > 0:50:12"Right, OK, all right."

0:50:12 > 0:50:15So we walk out and it was like one of those bad movies.

0:50:15 > 0:50:18We had got to the door and we are just about to grip the door

0:50:18 > 0:50:22handle when Jim says, "Gentlemen, one other thing."

0:50:22 > 0:50:25And we both turned around and he went, "Don't fuck up".

0:50:28 > 0:50:32CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:50:37 > 0:50:43Thank you. Good evening, guests. Whoo! Welcome to the House Party.

0:50:43 > 0:50:46'It was quite risky and dangerous, wasn't it?'

0:50:46 > 0:50:49It was, though he was used to live television

0:50:49 > 0:50:53and incoming sources from all over

0:50:53 > 0:50:59and they soon realised that the element of live television

0:50:59 > 0:51:01was what made it exciting.

0:51:01 > 0:51:04Let's go and meet this week's star of NTV.

0:51:05 > 0:51:07LAUGHTER

0:51:07 > 0:51:09Agh! Hello.

0:51:10 > 0:51:13- Hello, Andy.- Hello, Noel.- How are you?

0:51:13 > 0:51:17I'm all right, mate. I can't... No!

0:51:17 > 0:51:22We went on air with this 50 minutes of madness.

0:51:22 > 0:51:25LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:51:25 > 0:51:27And then this thing took off.

0:51:27 > 0:51:30# We're having a party

0:51:30 > 0:51:32# Want to dance and play

0:51:32 > 0:51:35# We're having a party

0:51:35 > 0:51:39# Want to dance and play

0:51:39 > 0:51:42# We're having a party... #

0:51:45 > 0:51:50CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:51:53 > 0:51:57Were you conscious that you were in a battle ground with ITV?

0:51:57 > 0:52:02I was acutely aware that it was a battle ground.

0:52:02 > 0:52:08I was hired by the BBC on the basis that these were ratings

0:52:08 > 0:52:10that need to be won.

0:52:10 > 0:52:14I don't know why anyone called it light entertainment because as far

0:52:14 > 0:52:20as I was concerned it wasn't light cavalry, it was heavy artillery.

0:52:20 > 0:52:26It was always the figures. "Cilla's got 17.2, we've got 16.8." "Oh, my God."

0:52:26 > 0:52:33We were fighting over 35 million people. It was a massive battle.

0:52:33 > 0:52:37House Party, you have five years, six years, of...

0:52:37 > 0:52:43I think round about '95 we were still doing really well.

0:52:43 > 0:52:51But '95 coincided with the arrival of the consultants, the suits,

0:52:51 > 0:52:55the big change in television for the BBC.

0:52:55 > 0:52:59And budgets started to be reduced.

0:52:59 > 0:53:05When it came to an end it kind of came as a surprise, didn't it?

0:53:05 > 0:53:07I'll tell you the story, Michael,

0:53:07 > 0:53:09and then you make what you want of it.

0:53:09 > 0:53:14Noel was becoming increasingly disenchanted with the show.

0:53:14 > 0:53:17And to be honest we were beginning to become a bit disenchanted

0:53:17 > 0:53:19with his disenchantment.

0:53:19 > 0:53:22Nobody ever sits watching a TV show and goes,

0:53:22 > 0:53:26"Noel's doing very well considering he is having

0:53:26 > 0:53:28"10% year on year budget cuts,"

0:53:28 > 0:53:33but they recognised the Gotchas weren't as lavish, the calibre

0:53:33 > 0:53:37of some of the artistes that were hired wasn't quite so high.

0:53:37 > 0:53:42Noel was getting less than pleased with the fact that the

0:53:42 > 0:53:44numbers were going down.

0:53:44 > 0:53:47They were trying all kinds of tricks, but the tricks weren't quite

0:53:47 > 0:53:49sticking and the numbers weren't picking up.

0:53:49 > 0:53:54It had been such joy and now it was hard work.

0:53:54 > 0:53:58It was a struggle. And then it became tougher.

0:53:58 > 0:54:01By the time the trouble was brewing he was coming in on a Saturday

0:54:01 > 0:54:05morning, if you were lucky, very often not happy with what

0:54:05 > 0:54:08he was doing. He wants this changed, he wants this changed,

0:54:08 > 0:54:11which of course on Saturday afternoon is quite difficult.

0:54:11 > 0:54:14The situation was, on one notorious occasion,

0:54:14 > 0:54:17I didn't present a House Party.

0:54:17 > 0:54:20I maintained it was because there wasn't anything to present.

0:54:20 > 0:54:22We went through the running order with him, he hated it.

0:54:22 > 0:54:26I was looking at the stuff, sitting there in the production office, and

0:54:26 > 0:54:28I'm looking at this and thinking, "We've got this and..."

0:54:28 > 0:54:31And there was nothing. It was like it was falling through my fingers.

0:54:31 > 0:54:33And I remember folding the thing and just saying,

0:54:33 > 0:54:35"There isn't a show here."

0:54:35 > 0:54:37I got a phone call from Mike.

0:54:37 > 0:54:39He said, "I'm really sorry, he's going home."

0:54:39 > 0:54:45I got up and I said, "When there's a show I'll be back to present it",

0:54:45 > 0:54:47and I walked out.

0:54:47 > 0:54:48I put a call in to Noel.

0:54:48 > 0:54:51He said, "Paul, you know I've been unhappy for some time.

0:54:51 > 0:54:53"I've been saying so.

0:54:53 > 0:54:56"That show that I was presented with was not a show that

0:54:56 > 0:54:59"I was prepared to stand in front of."

0:54:59 > 0:55:00You don't go back...

0:55:00 > 0:55:02Well, I did go back and I completed that run.

0:55:02 > 0:55:06And what was agreed was, "Why don't we then rest House Party

0:55:06 > 0:55:09- "and then develop something else?" - Something new.

0:55:09 > 0:55:12Something new and fresh and it was all very positive.

0:55:12 > 0:55:15And about four days later I opened the newspaper and I'd been axed.

0:55:15 > 0:55:20CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:55:31 > 0:55:33LAUGHTER

0:55:33 > 0:55:35We've been axed.

0:55:35 > 0:55:37AUDIENCE: Aw!

0:55:39 > 0:55:43- Oh, well.- We sat with Noel and said, "I'm sorry, Noel,

0:55:43 > 0:55:46"you can't walk out on a show. However bad it is

0:55:46 > 0:55:49"there's ways to fix it and having done it once, and you've been

0:55:49 > 0:55:53"unhappy for some time, we feel it would be wrong to ask you to

0:55:53 > 0:55:55"continue fronting a show in what are obviously not ideal

0:55:55 > 0:55:57"circumstances for you."

0:55:57 > 0:55:59So that was it. He stopped.

0:55:59 > 0:56:03It's an overworked expression when people say it's the end of an era.

0:56:03 > 0:56:06But for BBC Television, for the Entertainment Department,

0:56:06 > 0:56:09for me, and possibly you, it really is the end of an era.

0:56:09 > 0:56:14I hope your memory will be very kind to us after 169. Bye.

0:56:17 > 0:56:20While Noel's House Party was still a powerhouse,

0:56:20 > 0:56:22somewhere else in the television forest

0:56:22 > 0:56:26a producer called Paul Smith was doing the rounds with a format

0:56:26 > 0:56:29he was convinced would be a blockbuster.

0:56:29 > 0:56:33Unfortunately, for two years, no-one else did.

0:56:33 > 0:56:36ITV had decreed

0:56:36 > 0:56:38that they didn't want any more game shows.

0:56:38 > 0:56:41There was a moratorium on game shows.

0:56:41 > 0:56:45It was said to me by the existing director of programmes,

0:56:45 > 0:56:48and I do remember this quote very clearly,

0:56:48 > 0:56:50that the public do not want

0:56:50 > 0:56:53to watch other members of the public winning large amounts of money.

0:56:53 > 0:56:56But it didn't shake your faith in the idea?

0:56:56 > 0:56:59It shook my faith in my judgment because we eventually went to

0:56:59 > 0:57:03Channel 4, we went to BBC, we went to Channel 5,

0:57:03 > 0:57:06and all had different reasons for not wanting to commission the show.

0:57:06 > 0:57:10But you did have a champion in Claudia Rosencrantz at ITV.

0:57:10 > 0:57:12- She has faith in the show, doesn't she?- Yes.

0:57:12 > 0:57:14She's not been able to sell it to her bosses.

0:57:14 > 0:57:16No, and she gave me great strength,

0:57:16 > 0:57:19because to know that there was somebody championing the cause,

0:57:19 > 0:57:22albeit that they were being beaten down, was reassuring,

0:57:22 > 0:57:23only up to a point.

0:57:23 > 0:57:27- Your boss changes and David Liddiment comes in.- Yes.

0:57:27 > 0:57:31- And you've still got a passion for this show.- Yes.

0:57:31 > 0:57:33How did you sell it to him?

0:57:33 > 0:57:37I said, "I really do feel I have to do this show.

0:57:37 > 0:57:40"It's just, I'm obsessed by it."

0:57:40 > 0:57:44Onto your desk comes a quiz show idea. What struck you about it?

0:57:44 > 0:57:46What piqued your interest?

0:57:46 > 0:57:52The notion of a game show where the top prize was £1 million.

0:57:52 > 0:58:00That's a very simple idea, but I had one seriously big reservation.

0:58:00 > 0:58:04David was worried, rightly, about whether we'd be giving away

0:58:04 > 0:58:08£1 million every single episode, which would bankrupt us.

0:58:08 > 0:58:11It didn't seem like a very good financial strategy.

0:58:11 > 0:58:14The reason I thought that was, this was not just a Q and A,

0:58:14 > 0:58:17this was a multiple-choice and there were four answers

0:58:17 > 0:58:22- and the four answers were on screen. - And I said, "That can't work".

0:58:22 > 0:58:28I called her and I say, "Claudia, we want to strike while the iron is hot".

0:58:28 > 0:58:31And she said, "Well, he's only just got into the building".

0:58:31 > 0:58:34I said, "I think that's the great time to get him".

0:58:34 > 0:58:37She said, "I think we should wait a while".

0:58:37 > 0:58:39I said, "We just need to get in there quickly

0:58:39 > 0:58:43"and I don't want to give a chance of anything else to distract David".

0:58:43 > 0:58:46And she was very gracious.

0:58:46 > 0:58:49She said, "Well, I disagree with you, but it's up to you".

0:58:49 > 0:58:52And I said, "If it's up to me, please, I'd like to go and see David".

0:58:52 > 0:58:56He said, "Let me come in and I will prove to you that something else

0:58:56 > 0:59:02"kicks in once you're faced with serious money and real choice".

0:59:02 > 0:59:04I went to his office, Claudia was there.

0:59:04 > 0:59:06The three of us sat down and in my briefcase

0:59:06 > 0:59:08I had a number of envelopes.

0:59:08 > 0:59:11And I said to him, "Do you have your wallet with you?" He said, "Yes".

0:59:11 > 0:59:14- How much was in your wallet? - I don't know. I'm not going to say.

0:59:14 > 0:59:21£210. I said, "OK could you write me an IOU for £40, please?"

0:59:21 > 0:59:24He got a Post-it and he wrote, "IOU..." He still had no idea what was going on.

0:59:24 > 0:59:26And they put this money... He was intrigued.

0:59:26 > 0:59:29Claudia was thinking, "Paul, you're screwing this up,

0:59:29 > 0:59:30"what are you doing?"

0:59:30 > 0:59:33I opened up my briefcase and I took out an envelope

0:59:33 > 0:59:36and on it was the figure 250 written and I said,

0:59:36 > 0:59:40"Right, there's £500 sitting there, £250 of which you've contributed,

0:59:40 > 0:59:43"£250 of which I have contributed.

0:59:43 > 0:59:47"We are going to play a game, David, and you might lose this money.

0:59:47 > 0:59:50"And if you do you're not allowed to claim it on expenses.

0:59:50 > 0:59:53"Otherwise the pain is not going to be sufficient.

0:59:53 > 0:59:56"This is going to come out of your money, your earnings. Very important."

0:59:56 > 0:59:59He said, "Yes". He still didn't know what I was going to do.

0:59:59 > 1:00:01I said, "Fair enough," then opened the briefcase again

1:00:01 > 1:00:04and I had a number of cards with multiple choice questions on them.

1:00:04 > 1:00:05And we played the game.

1:00:08 > 1:00:12"Here's the first question and the four possible answers.

1:00:12 > 1:00:13"What would you like to do?"

1:00:13 > 1:00:17And he looked at it and he started talking to Claudia.

1:00:17 > 1:00:19I said, "Hang on a minute. "Hang on. I'm asking you."

1:00:19 > 1:00:22Claudia Rosencrantz, Controller of Entertainment,

1:00:22 > 1:00:26- was my Phone-a-friend.- I said, "OK, fair enough, In which case you are using that Lifeline.

1:00:26 > 1:00:28"I wasn't thinking that we were going to have any Lifelines,

1:00:28 > 1:00:31"but, all right let's do it with the Lifelines".

1:00:31 > 1:00:34They debated it. They didn't know. And he said, "I want to go 50/50".

1:00:34 > 1:00:36I said, "OK, it isn't that one, it isn't that one,

1:00:36 > 1:00:39"you've got two left". They discussed it a bit more. They went for it.

1:00:39 > 1:00:43They got the correct answer. I said, "Well done. You've got £500.

1:00:43 > 1:00:47"We're going to go onto the next question." Out with the next question.

1:00:47 > 1:00:49I then took an envelope out which had £500 in it,

1:00:49 > 1:00:52and I said, "We are now playing for £1,000. OK? Everything going fine?"

1:00:52 > 1:00:55He said, "Yes, it's good, good". I said, "You've got £500 now.

1:00:55 > 1:00:59"£250 you've contributed, but the rest... So you could stop now."

1:00:59 > 1:01:02He said, "No, no, I'm going to go on". I said, "OK. No problem."

1:01:02 > 1:01:04So, there we go, we've got £1,000. "OK.

1:01:04 > 1:01:06"Here's the next question." He looks at it

1:01:06 > 1:01:09and he starts talking to Claudia and I said, "Hang on a minute".

1:01:09 > 1:01:12"You've already done Phone-a-friend, OK? You can't talk to Claudia.

1:01:12 > 1:01:14"You're on your own."

1:01:14 > 1:01:15I realised that

1:01:15 > 1:01:21when something was at stake your certainty starts to be undermined.

1:01:21 > 1:01:25He said, "What have I got left?" I said, "You've got Ask the Audience".

1:01:25 > 1:01:29And his office was a self-contained office looking out onto

1:01:29 > 1:01:32a central office with quite a large number of ITV staff in it

1:01:32 > 1:01:35and he said, "OK", and he opened the door and he said, "Listen, guys".

1:01:35 > 1:01:40He addressed everybody all working away at their computers and so on.

1:01:40 > 1:01:43He said, "Does anybody know the answer to this question?"

1:01:43 > 1:01:45And there was a lot of discussion,

1:01:45 > 1:01:47but nobody... There was no certainty.

1:01:47 > 1:01:49There was no consensus. There was no majority.

1:01:49 > 1:01:53Now of course there's certain things where you absolutely know something. They're easy.

1:01:53 > 1:01:56But there's a lot that you think you know

1:01:56 > 1:02:00and you might casually say "Yes" to, but if that "Yes" is

1:02:00 > 1:02:06actually £1,000 or £20,000, or £100,000, or £1 million...

1:02:06 > 1:02:10- The mind plays tricks. - The mind plays tricks.

1:02:10 > 1:02:13And did you lose your money with Paul or did you quit?

1:02:13 > 1:02:16I think I quit in the end.

1:02:16 > 1:02:19He said, "I'll take the money".

1:02:19 > 1:02:23- He took the 500 quid.- Yes. And I said, "QED".

1:02:23 > 1:02:27I said, "This show governs the winnings. The format governs the winnings,

1:02:27 > 1:02:30"cos unless you are absolutely certain of the answer,

1:02:30 > 1:02:33"certain of the answer, why would you ever take a chance?"

1:02:33 > 1:02:37David said, "Look, let's do it."

1:02:37 > 1:02:41And then he said, "Is there anything you're worried about?"

1:02:41 > 1:02:44I said, "I'm worried about Saturday to Saturday",

1:02:44 > 1:02:47because it was commissioned as a Saturday night show.

1:02:47 > 1:02:52I said, "I'm worried about watching a contestant on a Saturday night,

1:02:52 > 1:02:59"whether the drama will hold to come back the following Saturday...

1:02:59 > 1:03:05- A week later.- He said, "Let's strip it". I said, "Oh, my God".

1:03:05 > 1:03:10I said, "Every night in peak?" He went, "Yeah. Let's do it."

1:03:10 > 1:03:14I think by the end of the first run, I think we ran for 14 nights,

1:03:14 > 1:03:17we were equalling if not beating EastEnders.

1:03:17 > 1:03:18It was like a terminator

1:03:18 > 1:03:21just crunching its way through the ratings.

1:03:21 > 1:03:27It just demolished, in a way I had never seen before or since,

1:03:27 > 1:03:30it demolished everything before it.

1:03:30 > 1:03:33While ITV continued to power its way the top of the ratings

1:03:33 > 1:03:38with Millionaire, over on the BBC, a young Geordie double act

1:03:38 > 1:03:43were taking their first tentative steps into the Saturday night arena.

1:03:43 > 1:03:46# Just the two of us

1:03:46 > 1:03:49# We can make it if we try... #

1:03:49 > 1:03:54- The BBC want us to do a new show, Ant.- Oh, good. When?

1:03:54 > 1:03:5545 seconds?!

1:03:55 > 1:03:58BOTH: What?!

1:03:58 > 1:04:00LAUGHTER

1:04:00 > 1:04:03'We'd been doing Saturday mornings on ITV for a while'

1:04:03 > 1:04:05and we got a phone call from the Beeb.

1:04:05 > 1:04:08They did these pilots in the summer of brand-new entertainment shows.

1:04:08 > 1:04:10And they had one that they wanted us to do

1:04:10 > 1:04:12and it was called Friends Like These.

1:04:12 > 1:04:14'Ladies and gentlemen,

1:04:14 > 1:04:17'please welcome, direct from the Cayman Islands, it's Ant and Dec.'

1:04:17 > 1:04:20CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

1:04:22 > 1:04:25'So we done the pilot and it got commissioned for a series.'

1:04:25 > 1:04:27'It got picked up and we did the series,

1:04:27 > 1:04:29which ITV weren't that happy about.

1:04:29 > 1:04:31So we were on ITV on a Saturday morning

1:04:31 > 1:04:33and we were on BBC Saturday night.

1:04:33 > 1:04:36And both of them said, "We don't want you to do the other one",

1:04:36 > 1:04:39but neither of them would pay for exclusivity, so we said,

1:04:39 > 1:04:41"Look we'll just keep doing them both."

1:04:43 > 1:04:46CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

1:04:49 > 1:04:53You've done really, really well all of you, you've done so well.

1:04:53 > 1:04:56The whole of Merseyside will be proud of you.

1:04:56 > 1:04:57Give it up for Claire...

1:04:57 > 1:04:58CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

1:04:58 > 1:05:01I've always thought they were talented.

1:05:01 > 1:05:03I didn't at that time realise just how...

1:05:03 > 1:05:05I think they are right up there.

1:05:05 > 1:05:08They are talking to you at home, they put the punters at ease,

1:05:08 > 1:05:11they can do the gags, they can sing a song. They will try anything.

1:05:11 > 1:05:12They are the full package.

1:05:12 > 1:05:16I said, "You're going to have to make a decision between

1:05:16 > 1:05:20"whether you want to sit on the BBC or you want to sit in ITV.

1:05:20 > 1:05:22"Because you can't do both."

1:05:22 > 1:05:25The BBC said, "You should go for lunch with Paul Jackson",

1:05:25 > 1:05:27who was then the head of entertainment at the BBC.

1:05:27 > 1:05:29And he took us for lunch.

1:05:29 > 1:05:32And it was kind of no starters, no dessert, he had to be somewhere else.

1:05:32 > 1:05:34I don't think he was that interested in being there.

1:05:34 > 1:05:36It was all very Alan Partridge, really.

1:05:36 > 1:05:39And he said, "So, guys, what do you want to do?"

1:05:39 > 1:05:44And we went, "You know Noel's House Party?" We said, "We want that slot."

1:05:44 > 1:05:46And he kind of looked at us like, "What?!"

1:05:46 > 1:05:48We said, "We want to do what Noel's doing.

1:05:48 > 1:05:51"We want to be that big kind of entertainment show."

1:05:51 > 1:05:52He was like, "I think

1:05:52 > 1:05:55"you need to serve your apprenticeship a bit first".

1:05:55 > 1:05:57And we went, "Fair enough, no problem.

1:05:57 > 1:06:00"But just marking your card, that's where we want to be.

1:06:00 > 1:06:02"And we will go away and do our homework

1:06:02 > 1:06:04"and we'll work our way up, but that's where we want to be."

1:06:04 > 1:06:07The boys say at one point you were quite tough with them.

1:06:07 > 1:06:10I don't think I was tough. I think I was blunt.

1:06:10 > 1:06:14To quote the Commissioning Editor at ITV at the time, which

1:06:14 > 1:06:19was Claudia Rosencrantz, she said, "Basically you need to shit or get off the pot".

1:06:19 > 1:06:24They said, "Well that's pretty clear".

1:06:24 > 1:06:27We said, "OK, then. We'll get off the pot, we'll come to you".

1:06:27 > 1:06:30I was the guy who lost them at the BBC.

1:06:30 > 1:06:33ITV came back with a very big offer for them and we lost them after one series.

1:06:33 > 1:06:36So the first show you did for ITV on Saturday night was?

1:06:36 > 1:06:38It was called Slap Bang.

1:06:38 > 1:06:41CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

1:06:46 > 1:06:49- Yes.- And it was rubbish.- Yes.

1:06:49 > 1:06:53It was so called because it was slap bang in the middle

1:06:53 > 1:06:55of your weekend on a Saturday night.

1:06:55 > 1:06:57It's the furthest point from Friday from you being at work or

1:06:57 > 1:07:00school till Monday morning when you're back there.

1:07:00 > 1:07:03- You don't have to justify it like that.- This was the pitch. - No-one remembers it.

1:07:03 > 1:07:06Look at this, folks. Look at the size of that forehead.

1:07:06 > 1:07:07ANT SPLUTTERS

1:07:08 > 1:07:10Do you know this? Do you know this?

1:07:10 > 1:07:14- It's so big ITV are trying to sell it as advertising space.- Right...

1:07:14 > 1:07:19I remember the first episode went out at eight o' clock on a Saturday.

1:07:19 > 1:07:21- Didn't do very well. - We had, was it six episodes?

1:07:21 > 1:07:25- 'Six episodes in the series.'- 'And then the next episode went out at 7.30.'

1:07:25 > 1:07:29It didn't do very well. Then 7.00, then 6.30.

1:07:29 > 1:07:32If we'd had a longer run we'd be back on Saturday mornings.

1:07:32 > 1:07:36- You'd call that a spiral.- Yes.- A bit of a spiral.

1:07:36 > 1:07:40We couldn't have done it without everybody here, all the crew, everybody in the gallery...

1:07:40 > 1:07:46- In our contract we had a second series of 18 for the following year. - Guaranteed.- Guaranteed.- Yes.

1:07:46 > 1:07:49They said, "Look, we can't do 18 of these. It hasn't worked.

1:07:49 > 1:07:52"I'm not going to recommission it." We were like, "Right, OK".

1:07:52 > 1:07:55And kind of, the bottom falls out of your world

1:07:55 > 1:07:57because that's where we wanted to be so much.

1:07:57 > 1:08:00They were really, really worried that I was going to say, "That's it.

1:08:00 > 1:08:02"We tried, it failed, have a nice life."

1:08:02 > 1:08:05I said, "No, no, it's my fault.

1:08:05 > 1:08:09"The big Saturday night ITV audiences, they don't know you yet.

1:08:09 > 1:08:12"So actually I took it for granted that the amount of people

1:08:12 > 1:08:15"that knew you, knew you, and they don't.

1:08:15 > 1:08:18"So we've got to do it slightly differently."

1:08:19 > 1:08:21CHEERING DROWNS SPEECH

1:08:21 > 1:08:27Ant and Dec's first outing on ITV may not have been the greatest success,

1:08:27 > 1:08:31but their next venture would certainly launch them into the big time.

1:08:31 > 1:08:35It all began with a lunchtime meeting with one Alan

1:08:35 > 1:08:38and not one, not two, but three Simons.

1:08:38 > 1:08:44On 13 February, 2001 in my diary it says, "Simon Jones",

1:08:44 > 1:08:46who was my COO type guy,

1:08:46 > 1:08:50suddenly said, "I've got a guy to come in. I want you to meet Simon Cowell."

1:08:50 > 1:08:52And in walked Simon Cowell and Simon Fuller,

1:08:52 > 1:08:55who I knew from the Spice Girls and whatever.

1:08:55 > 1:08:59He said, "We have no way of launching new talent and we want to create

1:08:59 > 1:09:04"a music show that allows us to get new talent through into the industry".

1:09:04 > 1:09:07And they pitched it. Simon Cowell did talk, talk, talk.

1:09:07 > 1:09:10- Are you making notes? - And I have got the famous note.

1:09:10 > 1:09:13And this is the famous note which I wrote.

1:09:13 > 1:09:16I'll just read first, then I'll let you read it. This is all it is.

1:09:16 > 1:09:18"It will be like Gone With The Wind.

1:09:18 > 1:09:21"The Sun newspaper will be in. The nation searching for one face.

1:09:21 > 1:09:24"50,000 in London alone will be auditioned at once

1:09:24 > 1:09:27"in Wembley Stadium." I said, "How are you going to audition 50,000?"

1:09:27 > 1:09:28"25 winners go forward.

1:09:28 > 1:09:31"Four regionals..." It was regional in the early days.

1:09:31 > 1:09:35"..Go to Los Angeles, then they re-enter the country, ten of them,

1:09:35 > 1:09:38"like the Beatles entered back to Heathrow. The public vote for two.

1:09:38 > 1:09:45"Prize, £1 million. And they'll sing songs like Flying Without Wings."

1:09:45 > 1:09:46What happens next?

1:09:46 > 1:09:50- Well...- Because at this moment you haven't got a broadcaster...

1:09:50 > 1:09:53Well, the boys thought, "That is it. I just go in with this."

1:09:53 > 1:09:55I said, "OK, we'll get a team to put it together".

1:09:55 > 1:09:57Now we have a 20-page document.

1:09:57 > 1:10:00And they said, "Come on, come on, come on, the two boys are getting irritable.

1:10:00 > 1:10:03"This'll do. I'll phone up."

1:10:03 > 1:10:08So I agree to go to the BBC because ITV had done Popstars.

1:10:08 > 1:10:10So I had to go and see Lorraine Heggessey.

1:10:10 > 1:10:13Lorraine Heggessey who was the controller of BBC ONE.

1:10:13 > 1:10:16So, Fuller didn't come, so Simon Cowell came.

1:10:16 > 1:10:19So I walk in the door with Simon, we do the pitch, and Lorraine says...

1:10:19 > 1:10:25"Hmm... Not too sure. Er, music show, sort of karaoke-ish. Not too sure."

1:10:25 > 1:10:29"Leave the document, and we'll come back to you in three or four weeks' time.

1:10:29 > 1:10:32And I said, "No, we're not leaving a document, but are you saying no?"

1:10:32 > 1:10:35"Well, unless you leave the document, for us to go over it,

1:10:35 > 1:10:38"we are not interested." OK.

1:10:38 > 1:10:42In the meantime, Claudia and David Liddiment phoned me

1:10:42 > 1:10:44and said, "Don't take it to the BBC, take it to us."

1:10:44 > 1:10:46They had assumed I wouldn't want it,

1:10:46 > 1:10:50because I had this big hit of Popstars.

1:10:50 > 1:10:52And I rang Alan Boyd,

1:10:52 > 1:10:54the legend that is,

1:10:54 > 1:10:57and I said, "Don't go to the BBC."

1:10:57 > 1:10:59So I said, "But you've got Popstars."

1:10:59 > 1:11:02"You're not just buying it to sort of warehouse it..."

1:11:02 > 1:11:04Because an old trick was to buy it to keep it off the screen.

1:11:04 > 1:11:07And you're buying it to keep me away from things

1:11:07 > 1:11:10- because you don't want to damage - Popstars. Saturday night!

1:11:10 > 1:11:13He said no. I said, "Well, if you make the show you have to make it

1:11:13 > 1:11:16preferably before Christmas, we'd have to have a deal.

1:11:16 > 1:11:19So, I said, "OK, it's a commission. We'll do it."

1:11:19 > 1:11:22They said, "What, just like that?" And I said, "Yeah, just like that."

1:11:22 > 1:11:25They said, "But it's 20 episodes." And I said, "Good!"

1:11:25 > 1:11:26"Good. That's perfect."

1:11:26 > 1:11:29I couldn't get hold of David, cos he was in back-to-back meetings,

1:11:29 > 1:11:31so I thought...("Oh, shit!")

1:11:31 > 1:11:35I only managed to get hold of David at seven that night,

1:11:35 > 1:11:38and I said, "I've got really good news...

1:11:40 > 1:11:42"..and a bit of bad news."

1:11:42 > 1:11:44And he said, "Well, what is it?"

1:11:44 > 1:11:49I said, "The good news is I have stopped the next smash hit show

1:11:49 > 1:11:51"going to the BBC."

1:11:51 > 1:11:54And he said, "That's really good news. What is it?"

1:11:54 > 1:11:57So I told him all about it, and he said, "Oh, great."

1:11:57 > 1:11:59"So, what's the bad news?"

1:11:59 > 1:12:01I said, "We've commissioned 20 episodes."

1:12:11 > 1:12:15One of the great ingredients of Pop Idol

1:12:15 > 1:12:21was Ant and Dec being the eyes and ears of the audience.

1:12:21 > 1:12:25The backstage role they played on Pop Idol happened by fluke.

1:12:25 > 1:12:27They were never intended to be

1:12:27 > 1:12:29part of the audition process,

1:12:29 > 1:12:32they were intended to be the besuited

1:12:32 > 1:12:33Saturday night hosts of the live show.

1:12:33 > 1:12:36Come down and watch some of the auditions.

1:12:36 > 1:12:37Just be part of the show.

1:12:37 > 1:12:39Come and sit in the rehearsal room, the audition room.

1:12:39 > 1:12:43Come and hang around the production, get to know everybody.

1:12:44 > 1:12:47# Shine a light ahead...#

1:12:47 > 1:12:52Sorry, this is absolutely nowhere, nowhere near good enough.

1:12:52 > 1:12:53I'm sorry.

1:12:53 > 1:12:57And we sat there, kind of... with our mouths open in shock,

1:12:57 > 1:13:00at the way that Simon Cowell was talking to these kids.

1:13:00 > 1:13:02Literally, out of 100, I would've given that two.

1:13:02 > 1:13:05I think your outfit, honestly, and I don't mean to be rude here...

1:13:05 > 1:13:08- is five to ten years out of date. - Right.

1:13:08 > 1:13:10He was this pantomime baddie,

1:13:10 > 1:13:13- but he was horrendous to these kids. - Horrible!

1:13:13 > 1:13:15I'm going to say this to you, and I mean it in a nice way...

1:13:15 > 1:13:17everything about your look is wrong.

1:13:17 > 1:13:18It was a bit too much.

1:13:18 > 1:13:20We're like, "He can't... You can't be that bad."

1:13:20 > 1:13:22- You can't do that. - You can't say that.

1:13:22 > 1:13:26So we started chatting to the kids, consoling them.

1:13:26 > 1:13:28And we'd peak in at the door, have a listen.

1:13:28 > 1:13:30Suddenly a producer-director would come in with a camera

1:13:30 > 1:13:32and start filming it and they took the footage back

1:13:32 > 1:13:34and we got a call to the office

1:13:34 > 1:13:36saying we had to come to all the auditions -

1:13:36 > 1:13:38"All this stuff is great. We want you to do more of it."

1:13:38 > 1:13:42So that's kind of how that was born, quite organically.

1:13:42 > 1:13:45There was a wonderful moment with Gareth Gates, which was in show one.

1:13:45 > 1:13:47Hang on a second.

1:13:47 > 1:13:51I have a stammer, so I'm finding it hard.

1:13:51 > 1:13:52And...couldn't say his name.

1:13:52 > 1:13:55- (Oh, come on, lad!) - No, just take your time.

1:13:59 > 1:14:00Gareth Gates.

1:14:00 > 1:14:01And then sang.

1:14:01 > 1:14:05# You find it in the strangest places...#

1:14:07 > 1:14:09And that point is the tipping point,

1:14:09 > 1:14:13when the public, emotionally... The connecting moment.

1:14:13 > 1:14:15..said, "I want to watch this show.

1:14:15 > 1:14:18"I am emotionally trapped to this guy who can't speak,

1:14:18 > 1:14:20"can sing - what will happen?"

1:14:20 > 1:14:26The moment the nation has been waiting for, we have the results.

1:14:26 > 1:14:29- It was bigger than a general election.- Yeah. With more votes.

1:14:29 > 1:14:32One of you got 4.6 million votes,

1:14:32 > 1:14:35the other one of you got 4.1 million votes.

1:14:35 > 1:14:36AUDIENCE GASPS

1:14:36 > 1:14:39That was the show that changed Saturday nights, as well.

1:14:39 > 1:14:41Mm. Yeah, it did.

1:14:41 > 1:14:43The first of those shows on a Saturday night

1:14:43 > 1:14:45where you pick up the phone and vote,

1:14:45 > 1:14:48and the viewer's empowered to have an influence on the outcome.

1:14:48 > 1:14:50They'd done it on other things

1:14:50 > 1:14:52- Big Brother was happening, and other things were happening -

1:14:52 > 1:14:54but for on a big Saturday night show like that,

1:14:54 > 1:14:57you can choose your Pop Idol.

1:14:57 > 1:14:58The winner

1:14:58 > 1:15:03of Pop Idol 2002...

1:15:03 > 1:15:04is...

1:15:04 > 1:15:06Will!

1:15:08 > 1:15:10So you failed to get Pop Idol.

1:15:10 > 1:15:12Pop Idol pops up Saturday night,

1:15:12 > 1:15:14ITV, and blows you away.

1:15:14 > 1:15:18- Yup.- At that point, how do you respond?

1:15:18 > 1:15:21Well, we were looking for a show anyway when Pop Idol came in,

1:15:21 > 1:15:24so we were already looking for something.

1:15:24 > 1:15:27And when the head of entertainment commissioning came in one day

1:15:27 > 1:15:31and said, "Look we've got this idea, it's pro-celebrity Come Dancing,

1:15:31 > 1:15:34and I just immediately said, "I love it!"

1:15:34 > 1:15:35Strictly...

1:15:35 > 1:15:39Well, I left in a rather... In a hurry.

1:15:39 > 1:15:41- Unexpectedly.- Unexpectedly. Yes.

1:15:41 > 1:15:46And I always remember Lorraine and Jane Lush

1:15:46 > 1:15:49came to me and said, "What do you think?"

1:15:49 > 1:15:52And I looked at the idea and I said,

1:15:52 > 1:15:54"Well, this is either going to be a big hit,

1:15:54 > 1:15:56"or it's going to be a disaster."

1:15:56 > 1:15:58There's no middle road for this.

1:15:58 > 1:16:01Ballroom dancing with celebrities.

1:16:01 > 1:16:05Ballroom dancing with celebrities on a Saturday night - you think...

1:16:05 > 1:16:07THEME MUSIC: Strictly Come Dancing

1:16:15 > 1:16:17Bruce Forsyth career is quiet.

1:16:17 > 1:16:21Let's not put it more than that. It's quiet.

1:16:21 > 1:16:25You get onto Have I Got News For You as the host.

1:16:25 > 1:16:28We watched the show every week, Winnie and I,

1:16:28 > 1:16:33and we were in bed one night watching it, nothing else to do...

1:16:33 > 1:16:35Shouldn't have said that.

1:16:35 > 1:16:37Right.

1:16:37 > 1:16:39Forget that.

1:16:39 > 1:16:41MICHAEL LAUGHS

1:16:41 > 1:16:44So we were in bed one night watching the show

1:16:44 > 1:16:47and Winnie, my wife, said to me,

1:16:47 > 1:16:49"You know, you could do that show."

1:16:49 > 1:16:51I'd already met Paul Merton,

1:16:51 > 1:16:54and I said, "I'll phone him up See the what he thinks."

1:16:54 > 1:16:57Don't worry, there will be no gimmicks, no catchphrases.

1:16:57 > 1:17:01So, welcome to Have I got News for You, For You Have I Got...

1:17:01 > 1:17:04- ALL:- News!

1:17:04 > 1:17:08After the first five minutes they were like a game show audience.

1:17:12 > 1:17:14Play your Iraqi cards right!

1:17:16 > 1:17:19And it proved to everybody that I wasn't over the hill.

1:17:19 > 1:17:20I was still climbing up there.

1:17:20 > 1:17:22Now, then. It's a high card.

1:17:26 > 1:17:29So, think about this,

1:17:29 > 1:17:31the audience will help you.

1:17:31 > 1:17:33Do you think it is higher or lower?

1:17:33 > 1:17:37AUDIENCE: Lower! Lower! Lower!

1:17:40 > 1:17:42I'm not sure this programme can go much lower.

1:17:43 > 1:17:45It's serendipity, isn't it?

1:17:45 > 1:17:49At the same time that we're thinking who could host Strictly,

1:17:49 > 1:17:52Bruce comes centre frame.

1:17:52 > 1:17:55- Bang. He's...- Back in favour. - ..back in favour. Amazing.

1:17:55 > 1:17:58It's nice to twirl you, to twirl you...

1:17:58 > 1:18:00ALL: Nice!

1:18:00 > 1:18:03The BBC came up with a show that is probably

1:18:03 > 1:18:08the most beautiful, perfect, entertainment show in the world.

1:18:08 > 1:18:11Humblingly brilliant show

1:18:11 > 1:18:13that people say to me,

1:18:13 > 1:18:17"Would you have wanted that show on ITV?"

1:18:17 > 1:18:19Absolutely in a heartbeat.

1:18:19 > 1:18:23"Would it have worked on ITV?" Yes, it probably would.

1:18:23 > 1:18:27"But is it a heartland BBC show?" Yes, it really is.

1:18:37 > 1:18:39And did the show work straight-out?

1:18:39 > 1:18:41- Yep.- It hit straightaway?

1:18:41 > 1:18:43Yep. People started texting me -

1:18:43 > 1:18:45in those days it was just texting - so I thought,

1:18:45 > 1:18:48"OK, people are watching it, because I'm getting some texts.

1:18:48 > 1:18:49Yes, the overnights...

1:18:49 > 1:18:51It was successful straightaway.

1:18:51 > 1:18:53Yeah, we struck gold with it.

1:18:55 > 1:18:59# Because I've had the time of my life...#

1:18:59 > 1:19:01The relationship between Strictly Come Dancing

1:19:01 > 1:19:03and the X Factor has been an interesting one over the years

1:19:03 > 1:19:05and I've seen from both points of view.

1:19:05 > 1:19:09But when I was at the BBC - around 2005, 2006 - Strictly Come Dancing,

1:19:09 > 1:19:13characteristically, got a bigger audience than the X Factor.

1:19:13 > 1:19:16Don't tell the others - you're my favourites.

1:19:16 > 1:19:19We then go to a period of some years where the thing reverses.

1:19:19 > 1:19:21THEME MUSIC: THE X FACTOR

1:19:21 > 1:19:27Then we've gone into another period where that is the case again.

1:19:31 > 1:19:34The difference between the audiences of the two shows

1:19:34 > 1:19:39is quite a marked one, if you look at the demographic breakdown.

1:19:39 > 1:19:41Strictly gets very big numbers,

1:19:41 > 1:19:43- but they are disproportionately... - Old.

1:19:43 > 1:19:46- Older people, let's be polite. - Yes.

1:19:46 > 1:19:48The X Factor's been going down a bit,

1:19:48 > 1:19:51because maybe it's been on a bit too long.

1:19:51 > 1:19:53I can't watch it personally because

1:19:53 > 1:19:55it's a singer after singer,

1:19:55 > 1:19:58after singer, after singer,

1:19:58 > 1:19:59after singer.

1:19:59 > 1:20:01And then they put another singer on.

1:20:01 > 1:20:06MUSIC: "Gangnam Style" by Psy

1:20:11 > 1:20:14I thought the Saturday night phenomena was over,

1:20:14 > 1:20:16and suddenly you saw these shows come back.

1:20:16 > 1:20:18I really noticed it with my...

1:20:18 > 1:20:21I remember my daughter, at that time, had just gone to university

1:20:21 > 1:20:24when X Factor and Strictly came around,

1:20:24 > 1:20:27and she and her mates would stay in

1:20:27 > 1:20:29until after the shows were finished,

1:20:29 > 1:20:30which was how it used to be.

1:20:30 > 1:20:32And you suddenly thought,

1:20:32 > 1:20:34this phenomena is still there.

1:20:34 > 1:20:36- They're in bigger venues... - They're events.

1:20:36 > 1:20:39They're events. Events. They're entertainment events.

1:20:39 > 1:20:43MUSIC: "Jump" by Van Halen

1:20:47 > 1:20:50Britain's Got Talent had a chequered start, didn't it?

1:20:50 > 1:20:53ITV wasn't convinced about it. To begin with.

1:20:53 > 1:20:55When I arrived they'd just made a pilot of a show called

1:20:55 > 1:20:58O'Grady's Got Talent with Paul O'Grady.

1:20:58 > 1:21:01Yes, punters, happy days are here again,

1:21:01 > 1:21:03because variety is back!

1:21:03 > 1:21:08This man came out with his, sort of...act.

1:21:08 > 1:21:11He came out with a concrete mixer on his head.

1:21:17 > 1:21:19That was sort of it.

1:21:19 > 1:21:21And...just didn't know how to stop laughing.

1:21:21 > 1:21:24And then Simon Cowell said to him...

1:21:24 > 1:21:26You're not going to pay to see it.

1:21:26 > 1:21:30And he said, with this thing on his head, "They do."

1:21:30 > 1:21:34And I thought, "This show is just pure gold.

1:21:34 > 1:21:36"It is just sensational."

1:21:36 > 1:21:39Claudia had ordered it, but it had delivered after she left.

1:21:39 > 1:21:40It was left on my desk.

1:21:40 > 1:21:41I didn't like it. We said no.

1:21:41 > 1:21:43So I called Simon and said,

1:21:43 > 1:21:45"Look, I'm really sorry, it's not going to happen.

1:21:45 > 1:21:48He got on the next plane and went to America

1:21:48 > 1:21:50and he went straight in to see NBC

1:21:50 > 1:21:53and NBC commissioned it on the spot.

1:21:53 > 1:21:55And it was a huge hit.

1:21:55 > 1:21:56It was OK. It did OK.

1:21:56 > 1:21:59- America's Got Talent? - America's Got Talent.

1:21:59 > 1:22:02And we started getting the phone calls from Syco-Talkback

1:22:02 > 1:22:04saying it's a big hit in America, and we're saying...

1:22:04 > 1:22:06"Yeah, it's an OK hit in America.

1:22:06 > 1:22:09Anyway, long story short, Simon clearly wanted to do it

1:22:09 > 1:22:11and, you know, if Simon...

1:22:11 > 1:22:14He's a very, very important player for ITV.

1:22:14 > 1:22:18- How are you feeling?- I've not been like this doing a show before.

1:22:18 > 1:22:20- Like what?- Nervous.- You're shaking. - I know.

1:22:20 > 1:22:23Well, that's not good, when you're about to throw knives!

1:22:23 > 1:22:26They're recording the first show and there's more cameras than we thought,

1:22:26 > 1:22:28bigger sets than we thought.

1:22:28 > 1:22:29How do you feel about that?

1:22:29 > 1:22:32Well, I might as well start shaking,

1:22:32 > 1:22:35cos I'm going to be dead by the sound of things!

1:22:35 > 1:22:38There is talk, never formulated, never formally put,

1:22:38 > 1:22:41but there are conversations about should cut our losses

1:22:41 > 1:22:43before we go any further.

1:22:43 > 1:22:46# I fell into a burning ring of fire...#

1:22:46 > 1:22:47Wow.

1:22:47 > 1:22:51I said to the guys, "Please phone me and tell me how it's gone."

1:22:51 > 1:22:54# And it burns, burns, burns...#

1:22:54 > 1:22:58I got a call at lunchtime. We've got a hit.

1:22:58 > 1:23:01How did they know? They hadn't seen one of the best acts yet or anything

1:23:01 > 1:23:02the public were going berserk.

1:23:07 > 1:23:09BUZZERS

1:23:09 > 1:23:10Thank you!

1:23:10 > 1:23:12And they said, we're fine.

1:23:12 > 1:23:16We stopped you because we think you are about to murder your daughter.

1:23:16 > 1:23:17No!

1:23:17 > 1:23:22I don't think any of us understood what reaction it was going to get

1:23:22 > 1:23:24when the show went out.

1:23:24 > 1:23:27That was going to get 20 million hits on YouTube in two days.

1:23:27 > 1:23:31She became the first ever worldwide overnight star.

1:23:31 > 1:23:33Overnight sensation.

1:23:33 > 1:23:37- And how old are you, Susan? - I am 47.

1:23:39 > 1:23:41And that's just one side of me!

1:23:41 > 1:23:45CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

1:23:45 > 1:23:47And ten or 15 years ago in a talent show

1:23:47 > 1:23:50she would have walked on, no back story,

1:23:50 > 1:23:54They'd have said, "What's your name?" "Susan Boyle." "Please sing."

1:23:56 > 1:23:59# I dreamed a dream in time gone by

1:24:02 > 1:24:05# When hope was high and life worth living...#

1:24:05 > 1:24:08Yous didn't expect that, did you? Did you? No!

1:24:08 > 1:24:13# I dreamed that love would never die

1:24:15 > 1:24:18# I prayed that God would be forgiving...#

1:24:18 > 1:24:21You are both entertained - because she's a brilliant singer

1:24:21 > 1:24:25and to everyone's surprise, delivers a wonderful rendition of the song -

1:24:25 > 1:24:28but you're also playing into the drama of the surprise.

1:24:28 > 1:24:30The camera goes back to Simon Cowell,

1:24:30 > 1:24:33his eyebrow goes up, they exchange looks on the panel -

1:24:33 > 1:24:35"Oh, my goodness, something is happening here."

1:24:35 > 1:24:39You are also being entertained by the drama of the format.

1:24:39 > 1:24:42You're sort of having your cake and eating it.

1:24:42 > 1:24:45DRAMATIC FINALE

1:24:46 > 1:24:48- Wow...!- Look at that!

1:24:48 > 1:24:50# Still I dream he'd come to me...#

1:24:51 > 1:24:55The sense that people's lives are transformed by these shows,

1:24:55 > 1:24:57makes it matter to them,

1:24:57 > 1:24:59it matters to audiences,

1:24:59 > 1:25:02that's why audiences start to interact.

1:25:02 > 1:25:03They'll pick up the phone and vote

1:25:03 > 1:25:06or they will get on an app and vote or whatever.

1:25:06 > 1:25:08Because they want to be part of that journey.

1:25:14 > 1:25:17For nearly 60 years a ratings war has been raging

1:25:17 > 1:25:20between the two giants of British television.

1:25:20 > 1:25:22Battles have been won and lost,

1:25:22 > 1:25:24presenters, producers,

1:25:24 > 1:25:26and shows have been sacrificed.

1:25:26 > 1:25:28There's been treachery,

1:25:28 > 1:25:29there have been traitors,

1:25:29 > 1:25:33but, in the end, who really won?

1:25:33 > 1:25:37I think Alan Hart had it right when he called it a dishonourable draw.

1:25:37 > 1:25:42So, what is the ideal Saturday night schedule?

1:25:42 > 1:25:45It's one that wins, really.

1:25:46 > 1:25:49Saturday night is the only night of the week

1:25:49 > 1:25:54when big important programmes do indeed start

1:25:54 > 1:25:56at 7.55, or 8.15, 8.35 -

1:25:56 > 1:25:59entirely illogical junctions, that if you did them on a Wednesday

1:25:59 > 1:26:02people would think you'd lost your mind.

1:26:02 > 1:26:04Well, if you looked at the perfect schedule,

1:26:04 > 1:26:08even then you'd find the audience is shifting around all over the place.

1:26:08 > 1:26:11But the perfect schedule is obviously having four or five

1:26:11 > 1:26:12big shows that follow each other.

1:26:12 > 1:26:17- Yes. You know, did you ever get it? - No.- I didn't.- Nobody's ever had it.

1:26:17 > 1:26:20You did play game, counter-game with the BBC.

1:26:20 > 1:26:23And you did play some games - you put out dummy schedules,

1:26:23 > 1:26:27you exchanged dummy schedules for the listings magazines.

1:26:27 > 1:26:30I had a trick when I was running the weekend schedule

1:26:30 > 1:26:32for the network in London Weekend.

1:26:32 > 1:26:35Knowing the BBC was hugely bureaucratic,

1:26:35 > 1:26:38I used to ring transmission planning in Bristol.

1:26:38 > 1:26:40I'd say, "Oh, it's London here.

1:26:40 > 1:26:43"I'm just looking at Saturday and Sunday,

1:26:43 > 1:26:46"I just wanted to check got you've got the same as me."

1:26:46 > 1:26:47And I'd get the schedule.

1:26:49 > 1:26:50No, I can't...

1:26:50 > 1:26:52I didn't...

1:26:52 > 1:26:53That's underhand, Michael.

1:26:54 > 1:26:56Stealthy.

1:26:56 > 1:26:59- Yes, OK.- Stealthy. - No, it's quite clever.

1:26:59 > 1:27:02Somebody once said there's no limit to the number of people

1:27:02 > 1:27:04who won't watch something they don't want to watch.

1:27:04 > 1:27:06The producer will always come to you

1:27:06 > 1:27:08and say, "Well, of course, you didn't get long enough.

1:27:08 > 1:27:12"Look at the audience appreciation figures - they're going up."

1:27:12 > 1:27:14And you say, "They're only going up because the only people

1:27:14 > 1:27:18"left watching it are the people who like it. Everyone else has gone."

1:27:18 > 1:27:19MICHAEL LAUGHS

1:27:19 > 1:27:21You had Generation Game...

1:27:21 > 1:27:24Generation Game, Two Ronnies OR Morecambe and Wise...

1:27:24 > 1:27:27- All Creatures Great And Small. - All Creatures Great And Small.

1:27:27 > 1:27:28You had the drama.

1:27:28 > 1:27:30Wait a minute, you had Kojak or Starsky and Hutch.

1:27:30 > 1:27:35You had an American import, I'd go Gen Game or House Party at its best,

1:27:35 > 1:27:39I'd go, er, Two Ronnies or Morecambe and Wise, obviously.

1:27:40 > 1:27:41Is Doctor Who in there, maybe?

1:27:41 > 1:27:44Doctor Who in the early part. Erm...

1:27:44 > 1:27:45A drama.

1:27:45 > 1:27:49News, Parky, Match of the Day. That's a pretty...

1:27:49 > 1:27:51And people would, religiously,

1:27:51 > 1:27:55for weeks and weeks and weeks, sit down at six o'clock and not get up.

1:27:55 > 1:27:57- And not turn the channel. - Not turn the channel.

1:27:57 > 1:27:59They'd watch the whole thing, and believe me

1:27:59 > 1:28:02you were sitting at ITV looking at that wall coming at you.

1:28:02 > 1:28:04I was ready to jump out the window.

1:28:04 > 1:28:06Mine would definitely be Game For A Laugh.

1:28:06 > 1:28:08Game For A Laugh...

1:28:08 > 1:28:12Yeah, it just had all those elements hidden camera, audience hits...

1:28:12 > 1:28:13All of those things.

1:28:13 > 1:28:15And as a kid - Wow, this is fun!

1:28:15 > 1:28:18- It was the first.- It was the first one that I really, really remember.

1:28:18 > 1:28:20So that would be mine.

1:28:20 > 1:28:24And them... At the beginning, all the hosts running down the stairs.

1:28:24 > 1:28:26- Sitting on the stools. - Sitting on the stools.

1:28:26 > 1:28:29And that's where we took that from when we started Saturday Night Takeaway.

1:28:29 > 1:28:32Running down the stairs in London Studios Studio One

1:28:32 > 1:28:33where they made that show, and...

1:28:33 > 1:28:36Don't keep telling them where we ripped stuff off from!

1:28:36 > 1:28:40Let them work it out themselves. It's BBC FOUR, they're clever enough!

1:28:40 > 1:28:42You don't have ram it down their throats.

1:28:42 > 1:28:45- No, on BBC FOUR it's not a rip-off, it's an homage!- Yeah!