0:00:02 > 0:00:04Eamonn, I can't go on waiting like this for you.
0:00:04 > 0:00:06I can't go on waiting for you like this.
0:00:06 > 0:00:07SHE CHUCKLES
0:00:07 > 0:00:10It's lovely that you're coming. Thank you very much for coming.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12Now, where are you?
0:00:12 > 0:00:14OK, well, then you'll have to go out, yeah...
0:00:14 > 0:00:16When you go back on to the main road...
0:00:16 > 0:00:20In 1971, when there were only three television channels,
0:00:20 > 0:00:23a new face appeared on our screens.
0:00:23 > 0:00:28She was a woman in a man's world. Her craft was the interview.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Is this smoke bothering you? No, it's not at all. Good.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33We've got to make you through that mysterious aura
0:00:33 > 0:00:34that you've talked about.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37It would be quite an interesting thing to watch
0:00:37 > 0:00:41Parky, Wogan, Frost and Mave at work.
0:00:41 > 0:00:42I know who'd come out best.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Because there was a Nixon/Frost moment in every one of
0:00:47 > 0:00:49Mave's interviews.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52The next 45 minutes could be pretty outrageous,
0:00:52 > 0:00:53not to say unpredictable.
0:00:53 > 0:00:58Do you remember the little bridge you went over a minute ago? Yeah.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00To be perfectly honest, I think I had a bit of a crush on her.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03She had this kind of terrific allure.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07A working class Welsh girl in fashionable London, she would
0:01:07 > 0:01:11go on to delve into the lives of the biggest celebrities of the time.
0:01:11 > 0:01:16THE most famous film star in the world, Elizabeth Taylor. Correct.
0:01:16 > 0:01:21Elvis Costello. Miss Mirren. Rose Kennedy was born...
0:01:21 > 0:01:23She had a brilliant brain.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26A very thorough, clever, clever person
0:01:26 > 0:01:28and fun too.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30Lovely laugh.
0:01:30 > 0:01:34Was it difficult to kiss somebody on the screen if you didn't like them?
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Oh, it's hell. Absolute hell.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41In an age when daytime television was in its infancy,
0:01:41 > 0:01:45her long-form interviews brought gravitas and insight.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49Mavis was consistently interesting, consistently probing,
0:01:49 > 0:01:55consistently cheering, joyous almost in her approach to her task,
0:01:55 > 0:01:59but formidably fierce if she felt she ought to be.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02So would you dislike the word "scrounger" as much as I do,
0:02:02 > 0:02:03cos I find it offensive?
0:02:03 > 0:02:06But, at the height of her career, television changed.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10Today, her in-depth approach has been cast aside and replaced by
0:02:10 > 0:02:13comic chat shows, lightweight lifestyle programmes
0:02:13 > 0:02:16and ratings-chasing reality television.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19It's all, "What you got in your attic? A bit of junk."
0:02:19 > 0:02:21"Let's go rooting round somebody's house we're going to flog."
0:02:21 > 0:02:24"Let's bake a cake."
0:02:24 > 0:02:28No, you're going the wrong way now. That's going into the village.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32As online broadcasting opens up an endless array of channels,
0:02:32 > 0:02:36a whole new audience is discovering the merits of her unique approach
0:02:36 > 0:02:38to the interview.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41Thank you very, very much indeed for talking to me. It's a pleasure.
0:02:41 > 0:02:43Thoroughly enjoyed it. Good.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46She's just so colourful, you know.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49You're never going to have a drab day with Mave around.
0:02:49 > 0:02:54Yeah, I love her. I love just the Mave-ness of her.
0:02:54 > 0:02:56The fact that she's called Mavis!
0:03:01 > 0:03:03Eamonn blinkin' Holmes!
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Shamai, fy ffrind!
0:03:05 > 0:03:08What do you think of me here then? What do you think of here?
0:03:08 > 0:03:11I'm just amazed you're still alive(!)
0:03:11 > 0:03:13Eamonn Holmes is making good on a promise
0:03:13 > 0:03:17he made almost 30 years ago to visit Mavis at home.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21It's brilliant to see you. And you. It's brilliant to see you. And you.
0:03:21 > 0:03:24This is nice. Right, good. Come in.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26This is like fairytale cottage.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29I always associate you with being sick,
0:03:29 > 0:03:31because when you were on in the afternoon,
0:03:31 > 0:03:33that meant I wasn't at school,
0:03:33 > 0:03:36so therefore I had to either be sick or pretend I was sick.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39Can I say thank you all for being here today? And I want to say
0:03:39 > 0:03:44thank you, Ireland, for making me feel very at home here.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48They worked together on Open Air in 1986.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51Eamonn, a fledgling presenter, and Mavis, a seasoned professional.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53Come to Wales as well.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56You, to me, are this goddess of television.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00You're absolutely so brilliant, so amazing, but television had changed.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04You had got that in-depth interview where it mattered,
0:04:04 > 0:04:06where questions were important,
0:04:06 > 0:04:09where people cared about the quality of what you were talking about.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11That's all different now.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14They would give you things like, "Mavis, you've got six minutes for
0:04:14 > 0:04:17this interview," which is an eternity, and you'd say,
0:04:17 > 0:04:20"Six minutes?! Six minutes to do this?!"
0:04:20 > 0:04:22Anyway, 26 minutes later, you were still talking.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27That's not true. Eamonn! All right, 16 minutes later.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31But nowadays if you disobey that,
0:04:31 > 0:04:37nowadays the PR companies rule the interview shows.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41They decide who you interview, what you're going to ask them.
0:04:41 > 0:04:42It's totally different.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Who is there on television, genuinely,
0:04:45 > 0:04:48that you would switch on and you would say,
0:04:48 > 0:04:51"I am going to learn something or get a masterclass?"
0:04:51 > 0:04:54It's just frivolous.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58Everything's about a joke and a gag and we don't talk to anybody
0:04:58 > 0:05:00seriously for any length of time.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02When you look back, and people should look back,
0:05:02 > 0:05:06to see what an interview is about and watching you and what you do,
0:05:06 > 0:05:09and you would pick difficult interviews.
0:05:09 > 0:05:11You wouldn't get those interviews nowadays.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14I mean, David Bowie. Interview David Bowie?
0:05:14 > 0:05:16Sophia Loren? Elizabeth Taylor?
0:05:18 > 0:05:21In 1986, an interview with one of the most formidable stars of
0:05:21 > 0:05:25the age made for a remarkable moment in broadcasting.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27Good afternoon.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30Our programme today comes from The Dorchester Hotel in London.
0:05:30 > 0:05:34My guest was born 56 years ago this month
0:05:34 > 0:05:38and lived just about seven miles away up the road from here
0:05:38 > 0:05:43and, since then, has become THE most famous film star in the world,
0:05:43 > 0:05:46Elizabeth Taylor. Correct. It is about that, isn't it?
0:05:46 > 0:05:49The most famous film star in the world. I don't know.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51I haven't really worked very much in films
0:05:51 > 0:05:54for the last seven or eight years.
0:05:55 > 0:05:59But I guess I'm famous for something.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09It's 30 years since those memorable interviews.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11Mavis is now a sprightly 85-year-old
0:06:11 > 0:06:14who enjoys a full and varied life.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17She lives in a cottage in rural mid-Wales.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21It's a far cry from her humble beginnings.
0:06:21 > 0:06:26My early life in Briton Ferry in South Wales was very working class.
0:06:26 > 0:06:30Ours was an overcrowded house. Small house. Street house.
0:06:30 > 0:06:365 Mansell Street, Briton Ferry, Near Neath, Glamorgan, South Wales,
0:06:36 > 0:06:40you know, when you put in your exercise book.
0:06:40 > 0:06:46And I had my mother, my father and me first in one bedroom, when
0:06:46 > 0:06:51I was born, and my grandmother and grandfather in two separate
0:06:51 > 0:06:55bedrooms because he was a drinker and she'd left his bed.
0:06:55 > 0:07:00And then, when my brother and sister were born out of the blue -
0:07:00 > 0:07:03my poor mother, twins - it got really crowded.
0:07:04 > 0:07:08As a little girl, I had my mother telling me that one day I'd
0:07:08 > 0:07:10be famous, which, I thought, "How does she know?"
0:07:10 > 0:07:13But I thought, "Well, my mother knows everything
0:07:13 > 0:07:16"so she's going to be right," so I thought, "Fine, good."
0:07:16 > 0:07:18She said, "What do you think you'll be?"
0:07:18 > 0:07:21"I don't know," I said. "Could be a teacher."
0:07:21 > 0:07:23She said, "Well, you could be anything."
0:07:23 > 0:07:27I said, "What kind of thing?" She said, "Film star?"
0:07:27 > 0:07:29So it went on and on.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32We both had our fantasies about what was going to happen to me
0:07:32 > 0:07:34when I grew up.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37So there's no doubt about it that my mother really gave
0:07:37 > 0:07:40me my confidence, I think.
0:07:40 > 0:07:45It was just, you know, to be treasured, no doubt about it.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52Despite war-time poverty, Mavis excelled at school
0:07:52 > 0:07:55and went on to study English at Swansea University,
0:07:55 > 0:07:59where she was taught by the celebrated author Kingsley Amis.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04It was here that she found the love of her life, Geoff Nicholson.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08It was love at first sight.
0:08:08 > 0:08:13We met on New Year's Eve when the clock was striking 12
0:08:13 > 0:08:15and kissed.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19It was one of my best friend's boyfriends.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22So I said, "Not again, we're not doing this again,"
0:08:22 > 0:08:26and he said, "No, no, no," but when he got back he rang me and said,
0:08:26 > 0:08:28"I am telling Norma it's over,"
0:08:28 > 0:08:31and Norma said she was glad it was over
0:08:31 > 0:08:32cos she was getting a bit bored with Geoff,
0:08:32 > 0:08:34so I said, "Bored with Geoff?"
0:08:34 > 0:08:38And I was getting interested in Geoff.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41But there we are.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44That one kiss led to marriage and a lifetime together.
0:08:46 > 0:08:52Geoff Nicholson was the nicest, the funniest, the driest,
0:08:52 > 0:08:55the cleverest of men
0:08:55 > 0:09:03and he was Mavis' anchor and safety
0:09:03 > 0:09:07and mentor, for certain.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11And she was safe as long as Geoff was there.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14Geoff would go on to be an award-winning sports
0:09:14 > 0:09:16journalist and author.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20Despite having won the prestigious Holton Advertising scholarship,
0:09:20 > 0:09:22Mavis turned her back on her copywriting career
0:09:22 > 0:09:24to start a family.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28One day I went to the doctor with a bad stomach and he said,
0:09:28 > 0:09:31"No, you haven't got a bad stomach, you've got a baby.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33"You're having a baby."
0:09:33 > 0:09:37And, so there we are, one, two, three boys,
0:09:37 > 0:09:42and lovely, I loved the years of being a mother cos I gave up
0:09:42 > 0:09:46advertising, which I was very pleased to do, quite frankly.
0:09:46 > 0:09:48It didn't quite suit me.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51I could play at it and it was fine, but I didn't want to make it
0:09:51 > 0:09:56a career and good job I didn't really, cos another career came
0:09:56 > 0:10:02unexpectedly after the boys were all at school and well on their feet.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06Harry, the youngest, was about seven when I got into television.
0:10:07 > 0:10:12Mavis was sort of discovered as a local activist on a school's issue
0:10:12 > 0:10:19and the then Today programme run by Eamonn Andrews had her on
0:10:19 > 0:10:21and she was very vocal indeed.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23She wasn't slow in coming forward, Mave,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26and isn't slow in coming forward and she was spotted by the then
0:10:26 > 0:10:30programme controller, Jeremy Isaacs, who said, "She's really got
0:10:30 > 0:10:33"something," and I think he then plucked her from obscurity.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36Not that Mavis was ever obscure.
0:10:41 > 0:10:45I was presented with the task of finding at least one programme
0:10:45 > 0:10:50that would occupy a chunk of this afternoon airtime,
0:10:50 > 0:10:53and I'm proud of having said, "I want a programme that is
0:10:53 > 0:10:58"produced entirely by women and presented entirely by women."
0:10:58 > 0:11:01They ran a poll and came back to me and said,
0:11:01 > 0:11:04"Do you want to know how many people said we want to have an
0:11:04 > 0:11:06"all-women programme?"
0:11:06 > 0:11:08I said, "Yes, tell."
0:11:08 > 0:11:10"Nobody!"
0:11:10 > 0:11:12So, of course, I said, "We'll do it."
0:11:18 > 0:11:23Launched in 1971, Good Afternoon had a different presenter each day.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27Tuesday belonged to Mavis, and her long-form interviews soon
0:11:27 > 0:11:30became the main attraction.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34Good afternoon. Rose Kennedy was born in 1890 of Irish descent.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37You could say her public life began at the age of five when her
0:11:37 > 0:11:40father was made first Catholic mayor of Boston.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43I think people had accepted that the people who were on television
0:11:43 > 0:11:50were mostly, 90%, men and it hadn't occurred to people really perhaps
0:11:50 > 0:11:54that there weren't the women, so it must have been quite an eye-opener
0:11:54 > 0:11:58for many of the viewers to sit and watch four women
0:11:58 > 0:12:00giving their points of view.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03I suppose we looked at things in a different sort of way to the way...
0:12:03 > 0:12:05As in life now,
0:12:05 > 0:12:09men have their views about things and women most certainly do
0:12:09 > 0:12:13and we were able to release those feelings and ask the questions
0:12:13 > 0:12:15we wanted to about every subject under the sun virtually.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19We would cover all sorts of subjects, not just, you know,
0:12:19 > 0:12:22what used to be considered "daytime".
0:12:22 > 0:12:26Not just cookery, although we had Mary Berry on our programme
0:12:26 > 0:12:30and I'm very delighted to see how she's got on well since then.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32But we could cover everything we wanted.
0:12:32 > 0:12:38Since we had a wide-ranging lot of interests amongst us, so we had a
0:12:38 > 0:12:41good time, and so it was a good time for women as far as I'm concerned.
0:12:41 > 0:12:46In those days, in the sort of late '70s,
0:12:46 > 0:12:49daytime television was reasonably new and the sorts of things
0:12:49 > 0:12:52we covered on Afternoon Plus were very new.
0:12:52 > 0:12:55We could do long interviews with politicians.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Well, first, let me say welcome to you, Mrs Thatcher,
0:12:58 > 0:13:01from all four of us, and good afternoon.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05As the audience grew, so did the calibre of the interviewee.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07Each presenter brought something different to the table and
0:13:07 > 0:13:10Mavis certainly had her own style.
0:13:10 > 0:13:15She wasn't afraid to let her views sometimes be quite clear,
0:13:15 > 0:13:21as when we all lined up to interview Mrs Thatcher,
0:13:21 > 0:13:24which was very funny.
0:13:24 > 0:13:29I remember talking to Jo Grimond on this programme and he said
0:13:29 > 0:13:31he wished that he could see emerging,
0:13:31 > 0:13:34but couldn't see it so far, emerging from women,
0:13:34 > 0:13:36when they took over, yes, he wanted equal rights, yes,
0:13:36 > 0:13:40he wanted equal opportunities for women, but what he HOPED was
0:13:40 > 0:13:43that they were going to come to the job in a different way from men.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46He said not much evidence yet, that women got tough like men,
0:13:46 > 0:13:51they got party political like men and they were bureaucratic
0:13:51 > 0:13:55like men and what a shame, when they could bring something different.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57Do you know Kipling's poem -
0:13:57 > 0:14:01"The female of the species is more deadly than the male?" Right.
0:14:01 > 0:14:05And the time when she's tough and the time when she's most deadly is
0:14:05 > 0:14:10the most female of characteristics in defence of her children.
0:14:10 > 0:14:14Mavis was being very polite to Mrs Thatcher as, inevitably,
0:14:14 > 0:14:16we would all want to be.
0:14:16 > 0:14:22But you knew, underlying, there were the questions that she was really
0:14:22 > 0:14:26wanting to ask because she wasn't on that same side of the fence.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30So, she moved into things gently
0:14:30 > 0:14:32but she always got the answers.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34"Scrounger".
0:14:34 > 0:14:36Even the comedians are taking it up at the minute
0:14:36 > 0:14:39and they always attack the weak and this is happening at the minute.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42No, I think you've got to keep two things quite clear.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45There are some people who prefer not to work
0:14:45 > 0:14:47when perhaps they could work.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50So would you dislike the word "scrounger" as much as I do,
0:14:50 > 0:14:52because I find it offensive?
0:14:52 > 0:14:56I did interview Mrs Thatcher and I must say I sulked on air.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58I pouted on air, you know.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00I just really...
0:15:00 > 0:15:06I'm afraid I was definitely influenced by my emotions
0:15:06 > 0:15:10and I couldn't do anything about it.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14I think by the end of the programme I was
0:15:14 > 0:15:17so low in the chair you couldn't see my face.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20I kind of just sunk down as far as I could.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23SHE CHUCKLES
0:15:24 > 0:15:27But, I did feel violently about it, yeah.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32She's a very bright girl, and you had to be
0:15:32 > 0:15:33in a man's world in television.
0:15:33 > 0:15:38You had to be able to use everything that was in your armament
0:15:38 > 0:15:41and Mave wasn't afraid to,
0:15:41 > 0:15:46whether it was her background growing up not a rich girl but
0:15:46 > 0:15:48a clever grammar school girl,
0:15:48 > 0:15:52or the fact that she's supped with kings and devils.
0:15:53 > 0:15:58She's on the front foot with her brain is Mave, yeah.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Daytime TV was attracting a following beyond its target
0:16:05 > 0:16:07audience of housewives.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10The intelligent, thoughtful approach was popular with millions,
0:16:10 > 0:16:12from shift-workers to students.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16# Nice girls not one with a defect
0:16:16 > 0:16:20# Cellophane shrink-wrapped So correct
0:16:20 > 0:16:23# Red dogs under illegal legs. #
0:16:25 > 0:16:29I think the first time I encountered Mavis was within the first
0:16:29 > 0:16:32couple of months because the suit I'm wearing I remember buying
0:16:32 > 0:16:38in Clayton Square in Liverpool for ?7 and I wore it till it was rotted.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42He was a treat to interview,
0:16:42 > 0:16:46cos he was shy and yet he was lucid, very.
0:16:48 > 0:16:53And he did this extraordinary thing of playing Watching The Detectives,
0:16:53 > 0:16:57which was due to be the record coming out the next day.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59It was supposed to be launched the next day,
0:16:59 > 0:17:02but he'd brought his guitar along with him, so he said
0:17:02 > 0:17:08he would like to give it as a little present to me and the programme.
0:17:08 > 0:17:12# She is watching the detectives
0:17:12 > 0:17:16# Ooh, he's so cute. #
0:17:16 > 0:17:20Now, Elvis Costello, it's a terrific publicity to have got your
0:17:20 > 0:17:23name known and it's not even your real name, is it?
0:17:23 > 0:17:25It is now. It is now.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28You think of yourself as Elvis Costello? Yeah.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31But part of it is right? Costello, presumably is, isn't it? Mm-hm.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34So did you think of Elvis yourself or did somebody say to you,
0:17:34 > 0:17:36"I think you should be called Elvis?"
0:17:36 > 0:17:37It's kind of a joint effort.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40I tell you what I think, I'd think that I'd be worried that if
0:17:40 > 0:17:43somebody gave me a new name I might change.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46I don't think I've changed. No more than I would anyway.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48It won't make any difference to you?
0:17:48 > 0:17:50I don't think it's going to be a special influence.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54What I encountered was a very...um..
0:17:54 > 0:18:00a person who really knew how to talk to you whatever your background.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03There were quite a few times when we were on TV and radio in those
0:18:03 > 0:18:07early days when people could be quite patronising and Mavis
0:18:07 > 0:18:12wasn't in any way like that and I think I liked her right away.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14To be perfectly honest, I think I had a bit of a crush on her.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16She had this kind of terrific allure
0:18:16 > 0:18:20and I felt at ease and I was a young man.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23I don't know what age she was but everybody that was older
0:18:23 > 0:18:26than 25 was sort of like Mrs Robinson to me.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29This is the first television interview we've ever done?
0:18:29 > 0:18:30That's right, yeah.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34First you've ever been asked, you told me, which is why you came on.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36Now then, can I tell you one thing?
0:18:36 > 0:18:37I try to resist publicity,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40partly cos in my job I really need to in a funny sort of way.
0:18:40 > 0:18:45So I only kind of half took you in from your posters and what I
0:18:45 > 0:18:48thought your poster was was Woody Allen in a new film about
0:18:48 > 0:18:52a rock star, begging your pardon, if I should be.
0:18:52 > 0:18:56Her directness, I didn't really have any guile about being interviewed.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00I just responded to it because I think it's
0:19:00 > 0:19:06a talent that somebody like that has to actually
0:19:06 > 0:19:09go direct at somebody, even somebody who's quite guarded.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12And, equally, I'd seen her interview people who were very
0:19:12 > 0:19:15practiced in their way of speaking and she, without tricking them,
0:19:15 > 0:19:21gets in there and they end up being more revealing.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24There's something deceptively motherly about Mave cos,
0:19:24 > 0:19:28actually, she's a bit of a geezer, as we all know.
0:19:28 > 0:19:33But she's deceptively motherly and I think non-threatening.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36I don't know a woman I've ever talked to, or indeed
0:19:36 > 0:19:41a man, who hasn't thought she was the best at her job.
0:19:41 > 0:19:47She was never bored with her subjects and that's important
0:19:47 > 0:19:52because a lot of them are, even the good ones, because if
0:19:52 > 0:19:56you've interviewed Betty Bacall about Bogey then it does
0:19:56 > 0:20:00become a bit of a trial to interview one of the Krankies afterwards.
0:20:00 > 0:20:01It's just not the same.
0:20:18 > 0:20:22Mavis quickly built a reputation as the alternative interviewer
0:20:22 > 0:20:24to such established male stars as
0:20:24 > 0:20:27Michael Parkinson, Russell Harty and Terry Wogan.
0:20:30 > 0:20:36Once I was in that studio there was only one person alive in the world
0:20:36 > 0:20:38and that was the guest.
0:20:38 > 0:20:42And I wanted to be concentrating on what they were saying,
0:20:42 > 0:20:45cos something they say would lead you to another question,
0:20:45 > 0:20:49which you hadn't thought of perhaps beforehand.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52But I would always carefully read researchers' notes,
0:20:52 > 0:20:57always have meetings with people and listen to all points of view
0:20:57 > 0:21:02and I'd read the people's books or go and see the play or go to
0:21:02 > 0:21:04see the film and all that sort of thing.
0:21:04 > 0:21:08The homework was always done jointly, shared,
0:21:08 > 0:21:12and then I said I had to be left alone because if I was going
0:21:12 > 0:21:17to find out anything new, it would come from the spontaneity of
0:21:17 > 0:21:22the studio and the conversation we would be having together.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27When a conversation is good, you're so engrossed.
0:21:27 > 0:21:31It's like a blanket going round you both and you're both sitting
0:21:31 > 0:21:36there comfortably engrossed in each other really.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38They don't need to be quite so engrossed in me
0:21:38 > 0:21:41cos they're not asking me questions.
0:21:41 > 0:21:44I know that they often said at the end,
0:21:44 > 0:21:47"I really enjoyed that, thank you,"
0:21:47 > 0:21:51so I went on that as the basis of how I worked.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57The behind-the-scenes preparation
0:21:57 > 0:21:59helped Mavis hone her interview skills
0:21:59 > 0:22:03but it was her relaxed style and sense of humour
0:22:03 > 0:22:07both on and off camera that earned the trust of her guests.
0:22:07 > 0:22:13Mavis would like the odd drink after a show, as we all would,
0:22:13 > 0:22:17and this was the days when television was done properly.
0:22:17 > 0:22:23You had lunches with your future interviewees beforehand,
0:22:23 > 0:22:26the day before or the week before, to find out more about them.
0:22:26 > 0:22:30You did your groundwork properly, you can prepare things properly,
0:22:30 > 0:22:34and then afterwards you would celebrate often with them,
0:22:34 > 0:22:36they'd stay behind, and it was very good fun indeed.
0:22:36 > 0:22:41The green room atmosphere was intensely relaxed, I'd say,
0:22:41 > 0:22:45after the work.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48Well, it was good.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50Very nice time we had.
0:22:50 > 0:22:55And sometimes, you know, I'd see somebody trying to get Mavis'
0:22:55 > 0:22:57telephone number or her trying to get theirs.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00There were quite a lot of notes being passed.
0:23:00 > 0:23:02That was all very friendly and nice.
0:23:05 > 0:23:09The fun of the green room often spilled over on to the studio floor.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11My friend Gwyneth Ward said,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14"I'll murder you if you interview Stewart Granger,"
0:23:14 > 0:23:16cos she was so nuts on him.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20Well, one day, a long time later, I interviewed Stewart Granger, right.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25I thought, "I've got to ring Gwyneth Ward,"
0:23:25 > 0:23:28so I got her number and I rang Gwyneth and I said, "This is..."
0:23:28 > 0:23:30"I know who it is," she said,
0:23:30 > 0:23:36"I listen to you every damn week, don't I? I'm a slave to you."
0:23:36 > 0:23:38And she said, "What have you got to tell me?"
0:23:38 > 0:23:40"Well, I've got to tell you something that
0:23:40 > 0:23:41"you're going to hate me for,
0:23:41 > 0:23:46"but I'm going to get his book and he'll sign it to Gwyneth."
0:23:47 > 0:23:49"Who?" she said.
0:23:49 > 0:23:53"Now don't tell me, DON'T tell me it is..."
0:23:54 > 0:23:56"What?" I said.
0:23:56 > 0:23:57"..Stewart Granger."
0:23:57 > 0:23:59I said, "Yes."
0:23:59 > 0:24:01"Bloody hell!" she said.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04We saw you as a very handsome man, right,
0:24:04 > 0:24:07but the studio were forever criticising your looks,
0:24:07 > 0:24:09from your book. What we're going to do...
0:24:09 > 0:24:10Is Gwyneth as pretty as you?
0:24:10 > 0:24:14Gwyneth Ward? Well, I haven't seen Gwyneth for about 35 years.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17You have real nice eyes, you know that, don't you?
0:24:17 > 0:24:18Thank you very much. Thank you.
0:24:18 > 0:24:21Well, we will not talk about me, Stewart Granger.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24We're here to talk about you. No, well, go on.
0:24:24 > 0:24:25When it was with Stewart Granger,
0:24:25 > 0:24:29really there was nothing to be done but to sit back and enjoy,
0:24:29 > 0:24:32and see Mavis getting off with Stewart Granger,
0:24:32 > 0:24:34which was a total pleasure.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36When I interviewed women,
0:24:36 > 0:24:42I think women did think they could say what they really felt,
0:24:42 > 0:24:44because they would have the freedom to, for one thing,
0:24:44 > 0:24:48and there would be no flirting and I think that there was
0:24:48 > 0:24:54a certain kind of flirting that went on with men interviewers with women,
0:24:54 > 0:24:58treating them as those sweet, little things.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01The actress Helen Mirren is opening at the Riverside Theatre on May 15th
0:25:01 > 0:25:03as Isabella in Measure For Measure,
0:25:03 > 0:25:07and it's not at all surprising that she's in another Shakespeare play,
0:25:07 > 0:25:09as she's been quoted as saying,
0:25:09 > 0:25:11"Modern plays are destructive to the human spirit."
0:25:11 > 0:25:15When I interviewed, say, for instance, Helen Mirren,
0:25:15 > 0:25:19I found it very easy to talk to her,
0:25:19 > 0:25:24not particularly all the time about
0:25:24 > 0:25:28acting or what's happened to her then, but I just wanted to
0:25:28 > 0:25:33know what she was like as a little girl and that sort of thing.
0:25:33 > 0:25:40She did have an explanation as to why she didn't want to have a baby
0:25:40 > 0:25:47cos she'd seen this terrible film and she couldn't bear it,
0:25:47 > 0:25:49just couldn't bear.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53It was about birth and it was obviously too advanced
0:25:53 > 0:25:55for this young thing.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58She really got upset by it
0:25:58 > 0:26:01to the point where she said she would never have a baby.
0:26:03 > 0:26:09All the boys and girls of 14 and 15 were all herded into this hall
0:26:09 > 0:26:12and we were shown this midwives' educational film
0:26:12 > 0:26:16on a baby being born and we had this very sweet, I think probably
0:26:16 > 0:26:18spinster lady, gynaecologist, who stood up and said,
0:26:18 > 0:26:21"This is about to be the most wonderful experience of your life.
0:26:21 > 0:26:25"I've seen this 2,000 times and I've never failed to realise
0:26:25 > 0:26:28"what a wonderful miracle it is."
0:26:28 > 0:26:30Then the lights went down and this film started.
0:26:30 > 0:26:32SHE IMITATES FILM REEL WHIRRING
0:26:32 > 0:26:34I'll never forget that noise
0:26:34 > 0:26:38and there was just this picture of this baby being born.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41I mean, just like that, and it was the most...
0:26:41 > 0:26:43I mean, within five seconds they had to stop the film
0:26:43 > 0:26:46because two boys had fainted and had to be carried out.
0:26:46 > 0:26:52I just put my hand on my head like this after about ten seconds
0:26:52 > 0:26:54and just couldn't look any more.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58Just stayed like this and just heard this sound going on.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01And, about five minutes later, the lights came up, and there was
0:27:01 > 0:27:08these absolutely shocked, white, terrified children,
0:27:08 > 0:27:12adolescents, not children, adolescents, like this,
0:27:12 > 0:27:15who all went out and the boys, you know...
0:27:15 > 0:27:18It would be interesting to meet someone who was there
0:27:18 > 0:27:21and if they actually had as bad an experience as I did.
0:27:21 > 0:27:22I'm sure they did.
0:27:22 > 0:27:27I think with Helen Mirren and myself, we just got on so well,
0:27:27 > 0:27:33and so it was just like talking to my best friend or something.
0:27:33 > 0:27:38And, with your best friend you would talk about babies and why you
0:27:38 > 0:27:42had them or why you weren't going to have them and I think there is
0:27:42 > 0:27:47a different tone of voice altogether.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50And, at the end of the interview with her,
0:27:50 > 0:27:56I remember the studio clapped and they thought it was just wonderful.
0:27:56 > 0:28:00I think she mentioned to me that she thought it was because,
0:28:00 > 0:28:03as two women, we got on so well.
0:28:03 > 0:28:07Now maybe there might have been a man who could have got on as well,
0:28:07 > 0:28:11I don't know, but they never went in that direction
0:28:11 > 0:28:13with their interviews, I don't think.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16If we were handcuffed like this for a day, like, say, tomorrow,
0:28:16 > 0:28:20tell me what we'd do. Oh, we'd have a terrific, sexy time.
0:28:20 > 0:28:22Yes, and then what would we do after that?
0:28:22 > 0:28:25Oh, we'd probably go to a movie.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27I'd sit in a box, you could sit in the stalls.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30Dangle you over the edge.
0:28:30 > 0:28:34Mavis was always very good with gay men.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37I mean, she never saw them as gay, as such,
0:28:37 > 0:28:39and she and Kenny got on very well.
0:28:39 > 0:28:43There was a zaniness about them both, you know.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47There is a sort of innocence about Mave, and Mave
0:28:47 > 0:28:49I'm sure won't mind me saying so. There's an innocence about her,
0:28:49 > 0:28:52so Kenny could tease her and get away with it.
0:28:52 > 0:28:54Mavis loved that.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01She could also get Kenny to be serious.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04A very hard thing to do with Kenny Everett in those days,
0:29:04 > 0:29:07but she got him to be serious and thoughtful
0:29:07 > 0:29:11and took him on to different territory.
0:29:11 > 0:29:17Again, that's her skill really, so you see people in a different light.
0:29:17 > 0:29:22If I were handcuffed to you when you were, say, 13...
0:29:22 > 0:29:25What, at school? Hmm. Oh, you'd have got hit a lot.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28By? By bullies. I was a stick insect.
0:29:28 > 0:29:32They used to follow me around - "Let's hit Ken. He'll snap easy."
0:29:32 > 0:29:33LAUGHTER
0:29:33 > 0:29:38You seem to have a thing about being a weedy person. Why?
0:29:38 > 0:29:41You've got a nice, trim figure.
0:29:41 > 0:29:44Good face, kiddo. No, in those days it was all Charles Atlas, wasn't it?
0:29:44 > 0:29:48It was all, "You too can kick sand in people's faces."
0:29:48 > 0:29:51If you were thin, you got hit a lot at school. But did you really?
0:29:51 > 0:29:53Did you really get bullied at school... Yes.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56..because you must have got the gift of the gab then?
0:29:56 > 0:29:58I was the slim, artistic type.
0:30:00 > 0:30:02She asked very direct questions.
0:30:02 > 0:30:07She asked direct questions about sexuality, about parents,
0:30:07 > 0:30:09about divorce.
0:30:09 > 0:30:13Oh, yes, she was unafraid. She was unafraid.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16And I think where do you hear that sort of interview now?
0:30:16 > 0:30:18Where do you get that?
0:30:18 > 0:30:23And since sex and money and rock and roll are what governs us all,
0:30:23 > 0:30:28it's surprising how little good conversation there is in the media
0:30:28 > 0:30:32these days about those things, proper stuff, not scurrilous stuff.
0:30:32 > 0:30:36Not, sort of, Sun headlines,
0:30:36 > 0:30:40but proper, careful investigations into relationships.
0:30:43 > 0:30:45She was very good about that.
0:31:01 > 0:31:05Mavis became known for talking on a deeper level with her guests.
0:31:05 > 0:31:09The result of a connection that was often created
0:31:09 > 0:31:11way before the cameras rolled.
0:31:15 > 0:31:19I had to meet Kirk Douglas before the actual studio,
0:31:19 > 0:31:23so I went along to pick him up in the taxi and bring him back.
0:31:23 > 0:31:28So he said, "I know what kind of interview you want me to do.
0:31:28 > 0:31:30"Just the films I've been in."
0:31:30 > 0:31:35"No, no," I said, "I don't do interviews just like that.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39"I'd quite like to come across a conversation that you'd like to have
0:31:39 > 0:31:42"rather than you expect to have."
0:31:42 > 0:31:44So he said to me, "Have you read any..."
0:31:44 > 0:31:46"Yes, I've read two of your books.
0:31:46 > 0:31:50"I've read the autobiography and I've read the novel."
0:31:50 > 0:31:52And he said, "What did you think?"
0:31:52 > 0:31:56and I said, "I think you told a fair number of lies in your
0:31:56 > 0:31:59"autobiography and quite a lot of truths in your novel."
0:32:02 > 0:32:05He said, "Good lord, who are you?"
0:32:05 > 0:32:11and I said, "I'm only the interviewer. What do you mean?"
0:32:11 > 0:32:14I said, "I'm a novelist, I've written a book,"
0:32:14 > 0:32:19and he said, "It's amazing. How do you know that?
0:32:19 > 0:32:21"Has somebody told you?"
0:32:21 > 0:32:24I said, "No, I've picked up clues.
0:32:24 > 0:32:31"The enthusiasm you had about the father in the novel who was cruel
0:32:31 > 0:32:36"to his son in particular, and his mother, struck home to me."
0:32:36 > 0:32:40I thought he must have had an awful father who did this to him.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45And in the autobiography, he's a background figure
0:32:45 > 0:32:48left out of all proceedings.
0:32:48 > 0:32:52And he said, "It's a relief I can actually talk about it now.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55"My mother has died and she didn't want anybody to know that my
0:32:55 > 0:32:59"father beat her up, like you know it's happened like that
0:32:59 > 0:33:02"because it's in my novel, and beat me up.
0:33:02 > 0:33:07"I was really, really scared of the violence of my father."
0:33:07 > 0:33:12But he couldn't get over it that a mere interviewer...
0:33:13 > 0:33:16A lot of people thought that interviewers were just people
0:33:16 > 0:33:20who asked silly, ordinary questions in order just to get
0:33:20 > 0:33:23the half-hour filled, do you know what I mean?
0:33:23 > 0:33:27There's quite a kind of disrespect for interviewers from guests.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29They think, "Oh, it's an easy ride.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32"I've just got to tell them the same old thing."
0:33:32 > 0:33:35And then I think it's a bit of a relief when they can suddenly
0:33:35 > 0:33:39talk about something they've not talked about before
0:33:39 > 0:33:45and some of them used to thank me for having confessed something,
0:33:45 > 0:33:47as they put it, on air.
0:33:47 > 0:33:52She always managed in almost all her interviews to get somebody to
0:33:52 > 0:33:56say something they'd never said before in public.
0:33:56 > 0:34:00And, notably, she did that with Jimmy Savile,
0:34:00 > 0:34:05and, um, she asked him about his...
0:34:07 > 0:34:10..fondness for little girls.
0:34:10 > 0:34:16She was then in a total panic that she was going to be sacked
0:34:16 > 0:34:18or sued or something.
0:34:18 > 0:34:20Nothing happened at all,
0:34:20 > 0:34:24but I think that was the first time anyone had asked Savile about
0:34:24 > 0:34:30that, and only Mavis could kind of get away with it, which she did.
0:34:30 > 0:34:34She was really intuitive about people like Jimmy Savile.
0:34:34 > 0:34:40Mave knew and Mave put him on the back foot and made him
0:34:40 > 0:34:45furious by questioning him about...
0:34:45 > 0:34:46him and little girls.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49Ooh, and that face turned!
0:34:49 > 0:34:53After I'd been made up I went into the waiting room
0:34:53 > 0:34:56where guests arrived and he was there already
0:34:56 > 0:34:58and he got up from his chair and he came up,
0:34:58 > 0:35:00"Madam, madam, you look divine."
0:35:00 > 0:35:04I had a long-sleeved blouse on, rather slack-sleeved blouse,
0:35:04 > 0:35:10and he pushed it up and tried to kiss me under my arm without
0:35:10 > 0:35:14any kind of introduction and I thought, "My goodness."
0:35:17 > 0:35:18I couldn't believe it.
0:35:18 > 0:35:21I said, "Don't you dare do that!"
0:35:21 > 0:35:23and pushed his arm away and then caught his other hand
0:35:23 > 0:35:28and pretended I was going to try and kiss his hand.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31And he went, "Don't touch me!"
0:35:31 > 0:35:35and REALLY recoiled.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38And I said, "Well, don't touch me."
0:35:38 > 0:35:42And he said, "Well, we're in for a very nice interview(!)"
0:35:42 > 0:35:46I said, "Yes, I'm sure we are," and off we went into the studio
0:35:46 > 0:35:51and, live, it went out and I decided I'm not going to hold back
0:35:51 > 0:35:55about the notes I'd had from one of the researchers saying
0:35:55 > 0:35:59he was taking young girls into his caravan regularly and all
0:35:59 > 0:36:00sorts of other things.
0:36:00 > 0:36:06Hospital misbehaviour after lights were out and all that sort of thing,
0:36:06 > 0:36:08and, um...
0:36:10 > 0:36:12..I let rip.
0:36:12 > 0:36:15He was talking about God and how God loved him and how his mother
0:36:15 > 0:36:18loved God and how he loved his mother.
0:36:18 > 0:36:21The Duchess, I think he called her.
0:36:21 > 0:36:25And I said, "What does God think of you taking young girls
0:36:25 > 0:36:27"into your caravan?"
0:36:29 > 0:36:34And he said, "God has told us to all love our brothers and our sisters.
0:36:34 > 0:36:38"What more can you ask of anyone but that we love each other?"
0:36:40 > 0:36:43So I kind of eased off after that
0:36:43 > 0:36:46because there was no way I was going to get anywhere
0:36:46 > 0:36:48without a downright row, I suppose.
0:36:50 > 0:36:55And I expected some reaction but I got none. Nobody said anything.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58Nobody...
0:36:59 > 0:37:03My producer said, "Well, you've got away with it."
0:37:03 > 0:37:07I said, "At least we've not been hypocrites and ignored it."
0:37:10 > 0:37:14Mavis' confrontation with Savile was not kept but she became known
0:37:14 > 0:37:17for her uncompromising style and her willingness to tackle
0:37:17 > 0:37:19the difficult issues of the day.
0:37:19 > 0:37:22OK, let's roll in 15 seconds, please. Good luck, everybody.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25Good afternoon. My guest today has said...
0:37:25 > 0:37:29Mavis insists that her programmes are for people of both sexes,
0:37:29 > 0:37:32but doesn't she think there's also a place in television for
0:37:32 > 0:37:35programmes especially for women?
0:37:35 > 0:37:38No, I mean, I think that it's corny nowadays to do that.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41I think there was a time when possibly we had to say to people,
0:37:41 > 0:37:45"You've got to listen to me cos I'm real. I'm not just this dolly.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48"I'm something real," and you had to flesh it out perhaps.
0:37:48 > 0:37:52Perhaps that's why liberated papers like The Guardian had women's pages,
0:37:52 > 0:37:54but, in a way, I think they should drop it.
0:37:54 > 0:37:55I think it should now be,
0:37:55 > 0:37:58we are people and we can be talked to as people.
0:37:58 > 0:38:01No special voice for us.
0:38:01 > 0:38:06By the 1980s, the prime-time slots were still being dominated by men,
0:38:06 > 0:38:10even thought Mavis was considered by many to be the best in the business.
0:38:13 > 0:38:18In 1984, Mavis was given her own show on the new fourth channel.
0:38:18 > 0:38:22She was a household name, regularly attracting millions of viewers
0:38:22 > 0:38:25as the great and the good vied for a slot on her show.
0:38:28 > 0:38:29She knew what she was doing.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31She knew how she wanted to do it.
0:38:31 > 0:38:35She loved doing it and, therefore, over and over again she succeeded
0:38:35 > 0:38:38and only grew as the years went on
0:38:38 > 0:38:42in the affections of television viewers.
0:38:42 > 0:38:47It's hard to say how big a name Mavis was at her peak.
0:38:47 > 0:38:51When I was in my sharper moods, I'd say, "You're just a Welsh witch,"
0:38:51 > 0:38:56but actually she is a beguiling and brilliant woman
0:38:56 > 0:38:58and she's a one-off.
0:38:58 > 0:39:02Sigmund Freud said that he wasn't so much interested in the man
0:39:02 > 0:39:06doing a handstand in front of him as what fell out of his pockets,
0:39:06 > 0:39:09and Mavis was interested in what fell out of people's pockets.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12She wasn't interested in men or women showing off for her,
0:39:12 > 0:39:16telling us about what a great actor they were,
0:39:16 > 0:39:20or a great painter or a great singer, but, incidentally,
0:39:20 > 0:39:22what cropped up while they were talking about those sorts of
0:39:22 > 0:39:26things, she picked up on those things and, boom, went for them.
0:39:26 > 0:39:30After more than a decade honing her craft in the interviewer's chair
0:39:30 > 0:39:32came one of the highlights of her career.
0:39:32 > 0:39:35Elizabeth Taylor was on the interview circuit promoting
0:39:35 > 0:39:39her new book, but in a special programme from the Dorchester Hotel,
0:39:39 > 0:39:43she revealed far more to Mavis than to any other interviewer.
0:39:43 > 0:39:48She was wheeled in in a wheelchair cos her back was really, really bad
0:39:48 > 0:39:51and then she sort of got out of it and got into the chair
0:39:51 > 0:39:54and I said, "Oh, you poor, old thing. That's horrible, isn't it?"
0:39:54 > 0:39:57She said, "It is painful."
0:39:57 > 0:40:00But she didn't QUITE catch my eye.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02And I thought, "Oh, Lord, don't say..."
0:40:02 > 0:40:05I had about 20 minutes before it would begin and I've got to
0:40:05 > 0:40:09have contact with the person before it starts, you know,
0:40:09 > 0:40:14cos you're just being very polite and boring, I think,
0:40:14 > 0:40:17at the beginning if you haven't had the chance to warm them up
0:40:17 > 0:40:21into some kind of friendship with you of a small sort.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28So she had a mirror and the make-up girl had given her the mirror
0:40:28 > 0:40:30and she was just fussing.
0:40:30 > 0:40:35Then she looked up at me and said, "Have I got lipstick on my teeth?"
0:40:36 > 0:40:41So I looked and I said, "No. Oh, go like that."
0:40:42 > 0:40:44And she went...
0:40:44 > 0:40:47"Fine," I said and then she went straight down again,
0:40:47 > 0:40:51so I said, "Oh, have I got lipstick on my teeth?"
0:40:53 > 0:40:56And she said, "Sorry," and looked and said, "No."
0:40:58 > 0:41:00"You're trying to tell me, I'm not..."
0:41:00 > 0:41:05I said, "We've got so little time, it's just that I wanted to have a
0:41:05 > 0:41:10"bit of a contact with you, but the main contact I want to make with you
0:41:10 > 0:41:16"is that if I said Pontrhydyfen to you, how do you say that word?"
0:41:16 > 0:41:19And she said, "Pontrhydyfen" just like a Welsh woman.
0:41:19 > 0:41:24Well, I know Pontrhydyfen the best.
0:41:24 > 0:41:26Of course mainly because of Richard's family.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28Yes, it's where my sister lived too.
0:41:28 > 0:41:34And I love the way it's, sort of, nestled in the mountains.
0:41:34 > 0:41:38And I said, "Brilliant pronunciation of it. That's wonderful."
0:41:38 > 0:41:42And she said, "I adored it there. Why did you say that?
0:41:42 > 0:41:44"Was it just cos you knew I knew it?"
0:41:44 > 0:41:48"No, my sister lives there and she knows Richard's sisters.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51"They often drink in the same pub."
0:41:51 > 0:41:54And she said, "Well, did she ever see me in that pub?"
0:41:54 > 0:41:57"No," I said, "funnily enough she didn't,
0:41:57 > 0:41:59"but you were there, we know"
0:42:00 > 0:42:02And so she said,
0:42:02 > 0:42:07"There's only one thing I'm very wary about being interviewed
0:42:07 > 0:42:12"and that is that I've been to the Elizabeth Ford Clinic,
0:42:12 > 0:42:14"you know that?" "Yeah."
0:42:14 > 0:42:16"I don't really want to go into that.
0:42:16 > 0:42:20I said, "That's your business, if you say so.
0:42:20 > 0:42:25"I would have probably asked you about it."
0:42:25 > 0:42:28"Well, you can ask me about it up to a point.
0:42:30 > 0:42:32"Why do you think I went?"
0:42:32 > 0:42:36I said, "I assumed you were in trouble in some sort of a way."
0:42:36 > 0:42:41And she said, "Ah...what would you think?"
0:42:41 > 0:42:45I said, "I think it's your business.
0:42:45 > 0:42:48"If you wanted me to talk about it and you said so,
0:42:48 > 0:42:51"I think I know how to question you."
0:42:51 > 0:42:55I have always been able to consume enormous amounts of booze
0:42:55 > 0:42:57and never get drunk.
0:42:57 > 0:43:01It would be when I go home and take my sleeping pills on top
0:43:01 > 0:43:04of the booze that I'd walk into walls,
0:43:04 > 0:43:06and that's when my children would have to pick me up off the floor
0:43:06 > 0:43:09and put me into bed.
0:43:09 > 0:43:12And when I'd hear things like that, I was appalled
0:43:12 > 0:43:17and riddled with such awful guilt that I'd done that to my children.
0:43:17 > 0:43:18I was devastated.
0:43:18 > 0:43:22When you then went into Betty Ford, that was voluntary, obviously. Mm.
0:43:22 > 0:43:26Then, were you able to...? Was it a group therapy that you did? Yes.
0:43:26 > 0:43:30It must have been very odd for people to do group therapy with you
0:43:30 > 0:43:34because you're so famous. It can't be everybody famous there, can they?
0:43:34 > 0:43:37I was the first celebrity ever to have done it, except Betty Ford,
0:43:37 > 0:43:43of course, who did it at the Naval Center in Long Beach.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47But I was the first celebrity to ever go to the Betty Ford Center
0:43:47 > 0:43:52and they told me they didn't quite know how to deal with me.
0:43:52 > 0:43:57My peers had to pretend that it was just sort of Jane Schmo and
0:43:57 > 0:44:04they were very awkward at first and I didn't quite know what to do,
0:44:04 > 0:44:07cos I just wanted to disappear
0:44:07 > 0:44:14and be unobtrusive and kind of get mixed up in the woodwork.
0:44:14 > 0:44:17But, within a day or two days,
0:44:17 > 0:44:20I realised we were all in the same boat.
0:44:20 > 0:44:24We were there for one reason - to save our lives.
0:44:24 > 0:44:26I'd like to wish you a very happy new life
0:44:26 > 0:44:27as the new Elizabeth Taylor.
0:44:27 > 0:44:31Thank you. I'm having a great time. Thank you very much indeed.
0:44:31 > 0:44:35Thank you very much for talking to me cos I've really enjoyed it.
0:44:35 > 0:44:38Thank you very much indeed for talking to me. It's a pleasure.
0:44:38 > 0:44:39Thoroughly enjoyed it.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43By the late 1980s, Mavis was at the top of her game,
0:44:43 > 0:44:45but television was evolving rapidly.
0:44:45 > 0:44:47There was a change of management at Channel 4,
0:44:47 > 0:44:50with a taste for the distasteful.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53Programmes like The Word, The Big Breakfast and Eurotrash
0:44:53 > 0:44:56would soon shock the viewers.
0:44:56 > 0:45:00The boss at 4 decided Mavis didn't fit this brash new brand.
0:45:00 > 0:45:05Despite a public outcry, and after 16 successful years,
0:45:05 > 0:45:08Mavis' interviews disappeared from our screens.
0:45:16 > 0:45:20Why did they want to shift a woman out,
0:45:20 > 0:45:23who seemed to have got on with the viewers so well?
0:45:24 > 0:45:27And it was a man, Michael Grade, who actually axed it.
0:45:29 > 0:45:33Perhaps I'd quite like to meet him eye-to-eye even now and say,
0:45:33 > 0:45:35"Why did you axe it?"
0:45:35 > 0:45:38He'd tell me once again that I'd already said that I was
0:45:38 > 0:45:39willing to go.
0:45:39 > 0:45:43But I was only willing to go because I didn't want to be sacked,
0:45:43 > 0:45:44if you see what I mean.
0:45:44 > 0:45:47I think I carry a lot of emotion about that.
0:45:49 > 0:45:52"More fool they," I thought.
0:45:58 > 0:46:02Following the cut, Mavis went on to present various programmes for
0:46:02 > 0:46:06ITV and the BBC, but would never truly regain her interviewer crown.
0:46:11 > 0:46:15Apart from politics, our other national obsession has been
0:46:15 > 0:46:19well and truly represented this week with three live soccer matches.
0:46:19 > 0:46:23The habit is very hard to break
0:46:23 > 0:46:27and whatever happened when she was suddenly no longer on our screens
0:46:27 > 0:46:33is pretty much what happens to every regular programme and will happen
0:46:33 > 0:46:37to Loose Women and is about to happen to Top Gear.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39Suddenly it's not there.
0:46:39 > 0:46:41It's one of the things we've come to rely on.
0:46:41 > 0:46:45It's gone and it's too late for us to do anything about it really,
0:46:45 > 0:46:47and that is the harsh reality,
0:46:47 > 0:46:53but I also think it was the end of the in-depth interview.
0:46:53 > 0:46:58In time, Parky went and Wogan went and certainly the times of
0:46:58 > 0:47:02Face To Face, John Freeman, that had long gone.
0:47:02 > 0:47:08Now, I think, with the coming of a kind of crazy, camp chat show
0:47:08 > 0:47:12being the only way to do it, where you go on and you play games
0:47:12 > 0:47:14and you have to make someone fall out of
0:47:14 > 0:47:18a chair and you engage the audience and it's more about the interviewer
0:47:18 > 0:47:20than it is about the interviewee.
0:47:20 > 0:47:24It's valid but it's never going to be what Mave gave us, which was,
0:47:24 > 0:47:29by the time the interviewee left the studio you knew more about them
0:47:29 > 0:47:32than their mother did.
0:47:47 > 0:47:52After the children had flown the nest and with her TV career waning,
0:47:52 > 0:47:56Mavis and Geoff moved home to Wales to concentrate on their writing.
0:47:56 > 0:48:00They had a desk each in the barn where they would spend hours
0:48:00 > 0:48:02working side by side.
0:48:03 > 0:48:08In 1999 came the devastating news that Geoff was dying of cancer.
0:48:09 > 0:48:13Mavis cared for him at home during the last months of his life.
0:48:13 > 0:48:19He was a very, very supportive person about my career.
0:48:19 > 0:48:24I mean, really, I don't know what I'd have done without him really.
0:48:24 > 0:48:28I don't know how either of us would have survived without each other
0:48:28 > 0:48:33and when he died it was really, really difficult, of course it was,
0:48:33 > 0:48:38and I've lived longer than I expected to live.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42But he didn't.
0:48:42 > 0:48:45He lived shorter than we expected him to live, so it's been
0:48:45 > 0:48:50quite difficult getting over that, in one way,
0:48:50 > 0:48:53but I have, sort of.
0:48:56 > 0:49:01The thing I suppose that I had to get used to was just not to
0:49:01 > 0:49:07have this one supporting person in my life that would have
0:49:07 > 0:49:11supported me whatever and...
0:49:16 > 0:49:19..and, of course, you miss all the love, don't you?
0:49:19 > 0:49:24You miss all the loving, for goodness' sake,
0:49:24 > 0:49:27and I know some people think that goes when you get older.
0:49:27 > 0:49:30It doesn't go completely, that's for sure.
0:49:32 > 0:49:38But, er, I think sometimes I've just held on to the memory quite well.
0:49:40 > 0:49:46I think you've got to really do that yourself in some way,
0:49:46 > 0:49:48you know, like, deliberately...
0:49:50 > 0:49:52..remember them.
0:49:53 > 0:49:57There's something about love that works,
0:49:57 > 0:50:01which survives when the person dies.
0:50:01 > 0:50:05If you think about your mother dying or your father dying,
0:50:05 > 0:50:10my brother and my sister dying, all of them are very vivid to me.
0:50:10 > 0:50:17I still love them like mad and it doesn't sort of weaken
0:50:17 > 0:50:21as time goes on.
0:50:21 > 0:50:23I think it's just brilliant, myself.
0:50:34 > 0:50:36In the years before Geoff's illness,
0:50:36 > 0:50:39Mavis wrote a memoire of her early life in Briton Ferry.
0:50:41 > 0:50:44It was a story which led to renewed media attention.
0:50:44 > 0:50:48In 1992, I read a book, I read this book, Martha Jane Me,
0:50:48 > 0:50:50and these were the days when I was a nice person and I used to
0:50:50 > 0:50:53write to the authors and say, "Thank you for a lovely read."
0:50:53 > 0:50:57This was such a lovely read and it opened up a can of worms for me
0:50:57 > 0:50:59from my own childhood.
0:50:59 > 0:51:03What was funny about that letter of yours, I didn't know it was you.
0:51:03 > 0:51:05It was P O'Grady... That's right, yeah.
0:51:05 > 0:51:08..and I used to go round the country saying the first letter I've got
0:51:08 > 0:51:12since I've written this book was from a chap called P O'Grady
0:51:12 > 0:51:15and it's such a lovely, lovely letter,
0:51:15 > 0:51:16cos you said you laughed,
0:51:16 > 0:51:21you cried and that it had wiped away the cobwebs of your own childhood...
0:51:21 > 0:51:24It had. ..and brought the sunshine in. Oh, I meant it.
0:51:24 > 0:51:27But, ten years later, I'm doing an interview in a hotel room,
0:51:27 > 0:51:31in comes Mavis and here we are, ten years down the line again...
0:51:31 > 0:51:33And then I said to you, "This chap, P O'Gra..."
0:51:33 > 0:51:35And then it dawned on me, do you remember?
0:51:35 > 0:51:38I said, "Paul O'Grady, it was you!"
0:51:38 > 0:51:40Am I in the right place?
0:51:40 > 0:51:43You ARE in the right place... Mavis, how are you?
0:51:43 > 0:51:46..with the right person. Oh, it's good to see you. Come here.
0:51:46 > 0:51:49Give us a hug. Oh, it's good to see you. Long time, no see.
0:51:49 > 0:51:53These greats of the interview chair have remained friends ever since.
0:51:53 > 0:51:56Paul continues to attract massive audiences,
0:51:56 > 0:51:59but has constantly had to reinvent himself on screen.
0:51:59 > 0:52:03I'll admit I'm pretty jaded with it at the moment, with telly.
0:52:03 > 0:52:04What, watching it?
0:52:04 > 0:52:08Watching it. Or being in it or what?
0:52:08 > 0:52:11I'm out of it from age. You see, you shouldn't be. Why?
0:52:11 > 0:52:13I'll tell you why.
0:52:13 > 0:52:16Because you were a brilliant interviewer because you
0:52:16 > 0:52:19wouldn't attack them but you loved debate.
0:52:19 > 0:52:22You're a typical... And don't take this the wrong way.
0:52:22 > 0:52:24..fiery Welsh woman.
0:52:24 > 0:52:27Cos telly now, I remember when I was in hospital and putting
0:52:27 > 0:52:31daytime telly on and thinking, "I'm so glad I'm not in prison.
0:52:31 > 0:52:34"I'll never offend because if this is what I've got to sit and watch
0:52:34 > 0:52:35"every day I'll go out of my mind!"
0:52:35 > 0:52:38It's all, "What you got in your attic?" "A bit of junk."
0:52:38 > 0:52:41"Let's go rooting round somebody's house we're going to flog."
0:52:41 > 0:52:45"Let's bake a cake." Would you ever go back and do the chat show?
0:52:45 > 0:52:47I'd quite like to have one more go.
0:52:47 > 0:52:49Yeah, I think you should. Mmm.
0:52:49 > 0:52:54You were always the voice of sanity, seriously. No, really, you were.
0:52:54 > 0:52:57If I had a problem and you were my auntie, I'd go,
0:52:57 > 0:53:00"I'm going up to see Mavis."
0:53:00 > 0:53:02Well, any time. You have that quality.
0:53:02 > 0:53:04Any time, Paul.
0:53:04 > 0:53:05THEY LAUGH
0:53:05 > 0:53:07It's lovely seeing you, though, Mavis,
0:53:07 > 0:53:11and seeing you so well an all and still as vibrant as ever.
0:53:11 > 0:53:14Still got the spark and still one I wouldn't cross(!)
0:53:14 > 0:53:17THEY LAUGH
0:53:20 > 0:53:23As in Mavis' day, Soho is the media hub of London.
0:53:23 > 0:53:25The streets bustle with bright, young hipsters
0:53:25 > 0:53:28hurrying to be the next big thing.
0:53:28 > 0:53:31It's a no-go zone for most 85-year-olds.
0:53:32 > 0:53:37You know when you're a kid and you have an aunt who's kind of not old,
0:53:37 > 0:53:43so that she still wears foxy clothes and says things like,
0:53:43 > 0:53:47"Don't hassle me?" In my generation. Well, that's Mave.
0:53:47 > 0:53:51I've never felt an age gap. She's 14 years older than me.
0:53:51 > 0:53:57I've never felt an age gap and she's funky as all get out,
0:53:57 > 0:54:00and you feel you could talk to her about anything
0:54:00 > 0:54:02and she would keep the secret.
0:54:02 > 0:54:05I love the fact that she loves young people.
0:54:05 > 0:54:08She's surrounded by people who see her just as a buddy.
0:54:11 > 0:54:15Mavis is meeting her granddaughters Maude and Tess.
0:54:15 > 0:54:17Hi, Nana. Hello. How are you?
0:54:17 > 0:54:19They're from a social media generation who are finding
0:54:19 > 0:54:25a new worth to Mavis' interviews, having discovered them online.
0:54:25 > 0:54:28I say Bowie. What do you say? I say Bowie. We say Bowie.
0:54:28 > 0:54:30He says Bowie. Does he?
0:54:30 > 0:54:34Well, I think that's why I called him it. OK.
0:54:34 > 0:54:37Let's have a look. So what was Bowie like then when you met him?
0:54:37 > 0:54:43Bowie? I like Bowie a lot. He was shy. A very shy person, really is.
0:54:43 > 0:54:46Yeah, he seems quite shy. Quite chronically shy.
0:54:46 > 0:54:50What's the name of the... BOTH: Ziggy Stardust.
0:54:50 > 0:54:54Stiggy? Ziggy. Ziggy!
0:54:54 > 0:54:56Ziggy Stardust!
0:54:56 > 0:54:58It's lovely having you here correcting me!
0:55:00 > 0:55:04No, I found him really appealing.
0:55:04 > 0:55:07It was an amazing image, wasn't it?
0:55:07 > 0:55:11I've sort of been thinking quite a lot about you and often seen
0:55:11 > 0:55:13you anyway... Is this smoke bothering you?
0:55:13 > 0:55:16No, it's not at all because we've got to make you through that
0:55:16 > 0:55:19mysterious aura you've talked about.
0:55:19 > 0:55:22I think that it's not at all mystifying why you change
0:55:22 > 0:55:25your appearance as often as you do, to my view, by the way,
0:55:25 > 0:55:29because I think you've used yourself as a canvas.
0:55:29 > 0:55:30Yes, very much so.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33Is that right? Yes, very much so.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38I never wanted to appear as myself on stage ever at any time
0:55:38 > 0:55:41until recently, I think.
0:55:41 > 0:55:43As I did write in character form,
0:55:43 > 0:55:45I wanted to produce those characters on stage,
0:55:45 > 0:55:49which is something I feel I did quite successfully at the time.
0:55:49 > 0:55:52167,000 views it's had.
0:55:52 > 0:55:55These are younger people, aren't they? Yeah.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57There's loads of people commentating, saying,
0:55:57 > 0:56:00"Who is this interviewer?" and wanting to find out more about you.
0:56:00 > 0:56:03"Best interviewer of David Bowie I've ever seen."
0:56:03 > 0:56:06"Nicholson was very respectful and asked deep questions."
0:56:06 > 0:56:09"Much better than the likes of Graham Norton and Alan Carr
0:56:09 > 0:56:10"style of today."
0:56:10 > 0:56:12Really? Really.
0:56:12 > 0:56:15That was simply an exercise of projecting something else.
0:56:15 > 0:56:18Like you say, for instance, you were presenting a picture.
0:56:18 > 0:56:23Well, I wanted to use rock and roll in some way or other and I got tired
0:56:23 > 0:56:28of the, sort of, the lie of the rock performer as exactly the same
0:56:28 > 0:56:32on stage as he is off stage, which, in most cases, isn't true at all.
0:56:32 > 0:56:35So I thought, well, take it a stage further and completely
0:56:35 > 0:56:36separate the personalities.
0:56:36 > 0:56:39The person behind it all who's writing it and creating it
0:56:39 > 0:56:43and the one up front that does the interviews and does the shows
0:56:43 > 0:56:46and so I created the characters and put them on stage.
0:56:46 > 0:56:48Then I would take them further and put them into interviews and
0:56:48 > 0:56:51I would only do interviews as the character.
0:56:51 > 0:56:55Were you hiding yourself from us?
0:56:55 > 0:56:57Partly but I was enjoying it very much.
0:56:57 > 0:57:00I like the idea of taking it to that surreal stage.
0:57:00 > 0:57:04I mean, how does it feel seeing the fact that your videos are
0:57:04 > 0:57:08being viewed by people who have never heard of you before?
0:57:08 > 0:57:11Well, I really feel really chuffed.
0:57:11 > 0:57:14It warms the cockles of my heart because,
0:57:14 > 0:57:21in a sense that I enjoyed being quite well known, if not famous.
0:57:21 > 0:57:23MAVIS CHUCKLES
0:57:23 > 0:57:29I like the fact that the interviews that I think were good
0:57:29 > 0:57:31will be shown again.
0:57:38 > 0:57:41If you offered her a major series now, she'd bite your hand off.
0:57:41 > 0:57:43And they should.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46I still think she's got every skill still there
0:57:46 > 0:57:48to do very good interviews.
0:57:48 > 0:57:52It's not too late for somebody of her intelligence and
0:57:52 > 0:57:56curiosity to have a show where she interviews the great and the
0:57:56 > 0:58:01near-great and possibly it's not going to be famous people because...
0:58:01 > 0:58:07Interview Gwyneth Paltrow, I don't know, you might.
0:58:07 > 0:58:09She'd probably be very good with Gwyneth because she'd spend
0:58:09 > 0:58:13a lot of time talking about vaginal steaming.
0:58:13 > 0:58:15Mave would love that.
0:58:19 > 0:58:23I suppose I've got to come to the conclusion I'm a born interviewer
0:58:23 > 0:58:25because I think my friends find me an interviewer, my family find
0:58:25 > 0:58:32me an interviewer, so life as an interviewer still remains.