0:00:05 > 0:00:08I find that people who do not care very much for art at all
0:00:08 > 0:00:12spend all their art time and energy with art that they don't like.
0:00:13 > 0:00:18I just don't understand why people who were outraged by my art
0:00:18 > 0:00:19bother with it at all.
0:00:20 > 0:00:27This programme contains some strong language.
0:00:27 > 0:00:31It consists of 120 bricks stacked in two layers.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38Industrially-manufactured bricks, all of which, of course,
0:00:38 > 0:00:42are made of the same substance and are therefore of the same hue.
0:00:47 > 0:00:48Yeah, no, I totally remember it, yeah.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52I remember my mum telling me that the Tate Gallery had bought bricks.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57Oh, I do remember the bricks controversy.
0:00:57 > 0:01:02I was...had just finished my foundation, so I'm really old!
0:01:02 > 0:01:05And I remember being quite perplexed by it, really.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11- Do you remember the bricks controversy?- I do, yeah, 1976.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20Pile of bricks basically on the floor, and they called it art.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31It's funny how it's lodged in public memory.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34It was talked about all over the nation and it went on for months.
0:01:40 > 0:01:46One can see it as the moment that modern art became something
0:01:46 > 0:01:48that everybody had an opinion about.
0:01:53 > 0:01:57The Tate art gallery in London hit the headlines today when it
0:01:57 > 0:02:01was revealed that they'd paid a lot of money for a pile of old bricks.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12It was 1976 that the whole thing broke.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21The bricks fuss was one of those things that actually caught
0:02:21 > 0:02:22like wildfire.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31Suddenly, the whole press went mad about this work.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38They're probably the most expensive bricks in the world.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41The Tate's brickies laid out the 120 firebricks in the
0:02:41 > 0:02:44rectangular pattern decreed by the sculptor.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46It was a major media storm.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55Most critics and mere mortals find this low-slung rectangle
0:02:55 > 0:02:56laughable or loathsome.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00It's bloody pretentious and stupid, and they need sending up!
0:03:05 > 0:03:09It just seemed, in my opinion as a taxpayer, a complete waste of money.
0:03:18 > 0:03:24I think they're making fun of us. People would say I'm wrong.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27I admit, it's my opinion.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31But I really believe that the person who believes himself that this
0:03:31 > 0:03:36- sculpture is making fun of us. - What's your reaction?
0:03:36 > 0:03:38- You've studied it closely, have you? - Yes, I've studied it.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41- And what do you make of it? - It's a pile of bricks!
0:03:45 > 0:03:49One of the main reasons why the public was upset about the bricks
0:03:49 > 0:03:54was that it wasn't refined, you know, and that works of art,
0:03:54 > 0:03:57you know, could not just be made out of ordinary stuff.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03This is bricks being stacked, not even being kind of formed,
0:04:03 > 0:04:05joined, carved or anything happening to them,
0:04:05 > 0:04:10just being put in this simple rectilinear arrangement.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12And I think it felt, for many people,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15like the artist was just taking the piss.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19Waste of taxpayers' money and a waste of space in the Tate Gallery.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23Of course, all the popular press picked up the thing about what
0:04:23 > 0:04:25a waste of money, what a load of rubbish.
0:04:25 > 0:04:29Here is this gallery, funded by the state, they get 500,000 quid
0:04:29 > 0:04:32a year for acquisitions, what do they spend their money on?
0:04:32 > 0:04:36They spend it on a pile of bricks, claiming that it's a work of art.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49The bricks controversy, like all great controversies,
0:04:49 > 0:04:52it's a period piece, it's something of its time.
0:04:52 > 0:04:54# He loves to dance He's got to dance
0:04:54 > 0:04:56# Oh, I love to love... #
0:04:56 > 0:05:01If you'd opened a newspaper in the sort of early weeks of 1976,
0:05:01 > 0:05:05it was just sort of one bit of bad news after another...
0:05:05 > 0:05:09Today's decision means that over 100 men will turn up tomorrow
0:05:09 > 0:05:13knowing they'll either be asked to go home or told they'll get no pay.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17..a strike, a set of terrible economic figures.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20The pound has never fallen so far so fast.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22# The minute the band begins to swing it
0:05:22 > 0:05:25# He's on his feet to dig it
0:05:25 > 0:05:28# And dance the night away... #
0:05:28 > 0:05:31There was double-digit inflation, there was a world recession,
0:05:31 > 0:05:33oil prices were rising.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36It was a period not of expansion but of restraint.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38# If I had my way
0:05:38 > 0:05:41# Oh, I love to love
0:05:41 > 0:05:42# But my baby... #
0:05:42 > 0:05:44And I think that, when people find out that when there's
0:05:44 > 0:05:46so little money to play with and when
0:05:46 > 0:05:49so many ordinary households are kind of under financial pressure,
0:05:49 > 0:05:54when they find out that public money is going on some bricks,
0:05:54 > 0:05:56they see that, I think, a lot of people saw that,
0:05:56 > 0:05:59as the perfect symbol of a kind of society and of
0:05:59 > 0:06:03a kind of high culture, if you like, that had lost its way.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06I've never seen anything so stupid in my life!
0:06:06 > 0:06:11I'm afraid I don't see any art in it or any beauty.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Very nice in my back garden but not in an art gallery.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21In Arena this week,
0:06:21 > 0:06:25the controversial American artist Carl Andre talks about those bricks.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32Well, maybe I've learned from my experience in Britain that
0:06:32 > 0:06:34my work poses questions.
0:06:34 > 0:06:35I'm not sure I have any answers.
0:06:36 > 0:06:41MUSIC: Autobahn by Kraftwerk
0:06:41 > 0:06:46Carl Andre was an American artist born in 1935 and he was brought up
0:06:46 > 0:06:52in Massachusetts in a town called Quincy, which was very industrial.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57CARL ANDRE: From 1960 to 1964,
0:06:57 > 0:07:02I worked as a freight brakeman on the Pennsylvania Railroad.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05I think that was my final art academy - the railroad.
0:07:07 > 0:07:12The idea of construction, building, bringing material order to
0:07:12 > 0:07:15the world, you might say, was again one of my earliest memories.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20Part of his job was to couple and uncouple the wagons, the trucks.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24He was looking at steel lines travelling across the land,
0:07:24 > 0:07:27working with very elemental materials.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30And it all makes sense that his aesthetic comes out of that
0:07:30 > 0:07:32experience.
0:07:32 > 0:07:38He was one of the key artists of the movement known as minimalism,
0:07:38 > 0:07:41which was a major, major art movement, along with just one
0:07:41 > 0:07:45or two other artists, and then there were millions of followers.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53Minimalism is a historic art movement that began in
0:07:53 > 0:07:56the '60s in New York and,
0:07:56 > 0:07:58although it has precedence in the earlier part of
0:07:58 > 0:08:02the 20th century in very sort of cool, streamlined,
0:08:02 > 0:08:07abstract art, it's really a '60s art movement.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11It means objects, mostly sculpture but sometimes paintings,
0:08:11 > 0:08:16reduced down to their most minimal aspects.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20So all the attributes of painting or sculpture you can think of
0:08:20 > 0:08:25are reduced down until you've got the barest minimum of what
0:08:25 > 0:08:28it takes to be an artwork.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32The main minimalists are all American -
0:08:32 > 0:08:36Dan Flavin, Donald Judd, Carl Andre.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38There was a painter called Frank Stella,
0:08:38 > 0:08:39who was Andre's friend.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43There was Sol LeWitt among the sculptors.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48Robert Morris and Robert Ryman.
0:08:48 > 0:08:49Now, in that handful of names,
0:08:49 > 0:08:52there's all sorts of materials being used.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56Somebody's making minimalism out of neon light tubes and
0:08:56 > 0:09:00someone's making minimalism out of forms that are just boxes.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04Someone's making minimalism out of paintings that are all white.
0:09:04 > 0:09:07Somebody else is doing paintings that are all stripes.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10And in Andre's case, what distinguished him is that
0:09:10 > 0:09:14he was doing sculptures which you could barely see.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17When you did focus on them,
0:09:17 > 0:09:20you could see that they were like the floor.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22They were on the floor but there didn't seem to be anything
0:09:22 > 0:09:23but the floor.
0:09:23 > 0:09:25It was as if they were a floor upon a floor.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27CARL ANDRE: People are always saying,
0:09:27 > 0:09:29"What will the man on the street say about your work?"
0:09:29 > 0:09:32Well, the child of the man on the street under the age of five
0:09:32 > 0:09:35almost always loves my work so I'd rather go for the child.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38They're built very close to the ground and they're used to
0:09:38 > 0:09:42noticing what's on the ground and the patterns that are on the ground.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51Minimalism came in when there was a kind of reaction against
0:09:51 > 0:09:54American abstract expressionism.
0:09:54 > 0:09:55Jackson Pollock, as we know,
0:09:55 > 0:09:59danced over his canvas with his drips and so on.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Pollock became a cult hero to his art public and was dubbed
0:10:02 > 0:10:04Jack the Dripper in the press.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07Fierce individuality was personified in the controlled
0:10:07 > 0:10:09explosions of Pollock's volcanic talent.
0:10:11 > 0:10:12Abstract expressionism,
0:10:12 > 0:10:15which was all gesture and throwing paint around, Jackson Pollock,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18you know, quite emotive, quite vibrant, colourful work.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23Then there was this reaction to that, which was minimalism,
0:10:23 > 0:10:28which is all quiet and sombre and stripped back to the raw materials
0:10:28 > 0:10:31and, you know, no grandstanding of gesture, you know.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34It was all about the absence of that.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37And there was sort of a paring back, almost denying of emotion,
0:10:37 > 0:10:39really, you know.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43Minimalism seemed to be like emptying itself out of content.
0:10:51 > 0:10:58Carl Andre's motive in making brick sculptures was to do with landscape.
0:10:59 > 0:11:03He had been on a canoeing trip, canoeing across the lake
0:11:03 > 0:11:07where you're inches from the water, this flat water.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09He suddenly kind of got the idea.
0:11:14 > 0:11:21And he found himself absentmindedly noticing the sheer glassy surface
0:11:21 > 0:11:25upon which he was canoeing, and it came to him in a flash
0:11:25 > 0:11:30that flatness - literal low flatness - was the way to go.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35You can imagine that glassy surface.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40And you can imagine it was some pleasure.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42And so it sort of gives you a hint about
0:11:42 > 0:11:45a better way to appreciate his art than to be angry with it.
0:11:45 > 0:11:50It's to sort of enter into it and enter into its delicious
0:11:50 > 0:11:51possibilities.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10Well, he had decided to make eight sculptures out of 120 sand
0:12:10 > 0:12:14lime bricks, and these sculptures had formed different geometrical
0:12:14 > 0:12:16shapes and different formations.
0:12:16 > 0:12:20# There were plants and birds and rocks and things
0:12:20 > 0:12:22# There was sand and hills... #
0:12:22 > 0:12:23So he's thinking about arrangements,
0:12:23 > 0:12:26he's thinking about the object as a sort of cut into space.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30# And the sky with no clouds... #
0:12:31 > 0:12:39The first version of Equivalent was exhibited in 1966.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42And they were shown at a gallery. None of them sold.
0:12:42 > 0:12:46Someone from the then Tate Gallery, a few years later,
0:12:46 > 0:12:49thought that it'd be a good idea if the Tate had one of them,
0:12:49 > 0:12:51having seen it in a photo. But they didn't exist any more.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53They'd gone back to the brickyard
0:12:53 > 0:12:56and he had to remake it out of
0:12:56 > 0:12:58slightly different bricks than he originally used.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01# La, la
0:13:01 > 0:13:03# La, la, la, la, la
0:13:03 > 0:13:04# La, la, la
0:13:04 > 0:13:05# La, la
0:13:06 > 0:13:10# After two days in the desert sun... #
0:13:10 > 0:13:14This is where we press a small quantity of firebricks. We weigh
0:13:14 > 0:13:18out the right amount of material, we fill the dye and then the press
0:13:18 > 0:13:20presses it to the correct size.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25This is the colour they are before they are fired.
0:13:25 > 0:13:26They go from here to a kiln,
0:13:26 > 0:13:28where they are taken to a high temperature and then
0:13:28 > 0:13:30they look like bricks.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33# You see, I've been through the desert on a horse with no name
0:13:33 > 0:13:34# It felt good to be... #
0:13:34 > 0:13:36They are different to normal bricks.
0:13:36 > 0:13:40They don't have a frog or a gap in the bricks. That's because we
0:13:40 > 0:13:45want to get a good seal when the bricks are used in service,
0:13:45 > 0:13:47a hole would be a weakness.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49# La, la, la, la, la
0:13:49 > 0:13:53# La, la, la, la, la
0:13:53 > 0:13:56# La, la, la, la, la
0:13:56 > 0:14:00# La, la, la, la, la. #
0:14:00 > 0:14:07Tate Gallery acquisitions file about Carl Andre from 1972 to '79.
0:14:09 > 0:14:10How extraordinary.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14This is a letter from me
0:14:14 > 0:14:17to the John Weber Gallery in New York,
0:14:17 > 0:14:21in 1972, asking if they could give us an update on
0:14:21 > 0:14:25the position of available sculptures by Carl.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28"Uniqueness, size or edition, and price -
0:14:28 > 0:14:31"details of brick pieces would also be useful."
0:14:31 > 0:14:35Well, little did I know what that was going to be the beginning of.
0:14:35 > 0:14:40Very interesting to see that again after what must be 43 years.
0:14:40 > 0:14:41Amazing!
0:14:41 > 0:14:45# After two days in the desert sun
0:14:45 > 0:14:49# My skin began to turn red
0:14:49 > 0:14:52# After three days in the desert fun
0:14:52 > 0:14:53# I was looking at... #
0:14:53 > 0:14:54This is a note.
0:14:54 > 0:14:58It says, the bricks arrived on the 22nd of May 1972
0:14:58 > 0:15:01at the container depot in Dagenham.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05"Unable to get work released because of pickets."
0:15:05 > 0:15:07Isn't it fantastic?
0:15:07 > 0:15:10"All transport..." - that must be the name of a firm -
0:15:10 > 0:15:13"..instructed to take no further action for the time being
0:15:13 > 0:15:17"until more was know about the outcome of the dockers' dispute."
0:15:17 > 0:15:21We will not back down in any way, shape or form.
0:15:21 > 0:15:26We are dealing with the right to work and we want that right to work.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31# Oh, you don't get me I'm part of the union
0:15:31 > 0:15:34# You don't get me I'm part of the union
0:15:34 > 0:15:35# You don't get me... #
0:15:35 > 0:15:38So this is the first time I've ever known that
0:15:38 > 0:15:43Dagenham comes into the story of the bricks affair.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46# Till the day I die
0:15:46 > 0:15:49# Till the day I die
0:15:49 > 0:15:52# You don't get me I'm part of the union
0:15:52 > 0:15:55# You don't get me I'm part of the union
0:15:55 > 0:15:59# You don't get me I'm part of the union
0:15:59 > 0:16:01# Till the day I die
0:16:01 > 0:16:04# Till the day I die. #
0:16:08 > 0:16:12Equivalent VIII had been shown twice before the controversy broke.
0:16:12 > 0:16:17The press office tried to drum up interest in the press
0:16:17 > 0:16:21in this display, and didn't really have much success.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24I mean, they were actually told by some newspapers, you know,
0:16:24 > 0:16:26"Who would be interested in this sort of thing?"
0:16:26 > 0:16:28It's absolutely amazing considering what happened.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30There has been nothing about the bricks.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33The bricks have been there, they've be bought for years.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35Nobody has basically even noticed.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38But then the Sunday Times wanted to put the boot in to the Tate
0:16:38 > 0:16:42about its finances. And the guy who wrote the story saw the bricks as
0:16:42 > 0:16:43the perfect symbol of this.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54# There's a kind of hush
0:16:54 > 0:16:57# All over the world... #
0:16:57 > 0:17:01I hope I get it right. Cos it was 40-odd years ago.
0:17:01 > 0:17:02# You can hear
0:17:02 > 0:17:05# The sound of lovers in love
0:17:05 > 0:17:07# You know what I mean
0:17:07 > 0:17:09# Just the two of us... #
0:17:09 > 0:17:13I was a reporter on the Sunday Times.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16I was sent to write a few hundred words on the Constable exhibition
0:17:16 > 0:17:18at the Tate Gallery.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21I was shepherded around,
0:17:21 > 0:17:25handed a copy of the biannual report.
0:17:25 > 0:17:26# So listen carefully
0:17:26 > 0:17:30# Get closer now and you will see what I mean... #
0:17:30 > 0:17:32What happened was that an investigative journalist
0:17:32 > 0:17:38called Colin Simpson got hold of the report and read though it,
0:17:38 > 0:17:42and picked up that they had bought a pile of bricks
0:17:42 > 0:17:43and had spent public money on it.
0:17:43 > 0:17:47So I sat down in the Tate and wrote this.
0:17:47 > 0:17:51# The only sound that you will hear
0:17:51 > 0:17:53# Is when I whisper in your ear... #
0:17:53 > 0:17:55I had to phone the story through.
0:17:58 > 0:18:03"In the summer of 1965, whilst on a canoeing holiday,
0:18:03 > 0:18:07"Andre suddenly decided it was time to create low sculpture.
0:18:07 > 0:18:08"He bought..."
0:18:08 > 0:18:10120 bricks from a brickyard.
0:18:10 > 0:18:14Arranged them in a low pile on the floor of an art gallery, comma,
0:18:14 > 0:18:19put a price tag of 12,000 on them and waited for customers.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21None came.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24"Being short of money, he took the bricks back to the brickyard
0:18:24 > 0:18:26"and got his money back."
0:18:26 > 0:18:28Full stop. New para.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32In 1972, the Tate saw a photograph of Andre's bricks
0:18:32 > 0:18:34and offered to buy them.
0:18:34 > 0:18:38"Andre went back to the brickyard only to find that it had closed."
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Andre found some other bricks...
0:18:41 > 0:18:44"..which, in due course, were crated and sent to London."
0:18:44 > 0:18:48The Tate is understandably coy about how much it paid for this
0:18:48 > 0:18:50insouciant masterpiece.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03I was purely taking the piss, nothing else.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06It was as simple as that.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08# You will see what I mean... #
0:19:08 > 0:19:12What I loved about it was what I worked into the piece,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15which was that he took the bricks back to the brickyard to get
0:19:15 > 0:19:17his money back.
0:19:17 > 0:19:18# The only sound that you will hear
0:19:18 > 0:19:20# Is when I whisper... #
0:19:20 > 0:19:23The sheer brazen nerve of it, you know.
0:19:23 > 0:19:24I admired him.
0:19:27 > 0:19:29The shit hit the fan, as they say.
0:19:29 > 0:19:31HE CHUCKLES
0:19:31 > 0:19:34It's the section called business news.
0:19:36 > 0:19:40There's this headline - The Tate Drops A Costly Brick
0:19:40 > 0:19:42by Colin Simpson.
0:19:42 > 0:19:43HE LAUGHS
0:19:43 > 0:19:48I read it not having the faintest idea that it was going to
0:19:48 > 0:19:51cause this amazing hullabaloo that followed.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01The following Monday, the Daily Mirror had it
0:20:01 > 0:20:03on its front page
0:20:03 > 0:20:06and suddenly all the newspapers wanted to be in on the story.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25You know. There's the advertising
0:20:25 > 0:20:29industry not wanting to miss a trick.
0:20:29 > 0:20:30It's pretty good, isn't it?
0:20:38 > 0:20:42I mean, here we are two days after the Sunday Times.
0:20:42 > 0:20:44And everybody expected
0:20:44 > 0:20:47the minister to condemn it. He behaved extremely well
0:20:47 > 0:20:50and absolutely didn't take up
0:20:50 > 0:20:53the media provocation that the minister should somehow
0:20:53 > 0:20:55be intervening on these crazy Tate trustees.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07They hadn't actually been on show when the Sunday Times fuss started
0:21:07 > 0:21:09and I think, quite rightly, the Tate brought them out
0:21:09 > 0:21:13and allowed people to come and see them and have their own discussion.
0:21:13 > 0:21:15Those in the know - and even those who aren't -
0:21:15 > 0:21:17classify it as low sculpture.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19Usually they are locked away in a store room,
0:21:19 > 0:21:22but today the Tate put them on show.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25Mr Burgess, I believe you have special instructions
0:21:25 > 0:21:26for assembling the bricks.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28Yes, we do.
0:21:28 > 0:21:34Parallel to the wall and then lay down ten bricks in one line.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37And just six wide.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39We just build up off of that.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42Now, do you think this is a work of art?
0:21:42 > 0:21:44Well, everything in here is a work of art.
0:21:46 > 0:21:51This is the central space in Tate Britain
0:21:51 > 0:21:54and at the time of the bricks affair,
0:21:54 > 0:21:59in the north end of it, there was an enormous Constable exhibition
0:21:59 > 0:22:02which aroused tremendous public interest and huge crowds.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04But we had to put the sculpture
0:22:04 > 0:22:07by Carl Andre on display very quickly
0:22:07 > 0:22:10and the best place was in a gallery just through here.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13And so, you had the two groups of people
0:22:13 > 0:22:15surging up the sculpture hall simultaneously.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18One lot going that way and one this way.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23This room was just filled with chattering people.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25Some of them chattering,
0:22:25 > 0:22:30some of them just starring in awe and fascination and,
0:22:30 > 0:22:33in some cases, I suppose, horror.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36And it was placed around here.
0:22:36 > 0:22:42The long axis that way and with an attendant's chair close by
0:22:42 > 0:22:46to keep an eye on the public's behaviour towards the sculpture.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05It's all very well for the private individual to buy
0:23:05 > 0:23:09a weird painting or a weird piece of sculpture,
0:23:09 > 0:23:11but when the Tate does it...
0:23:11 > 0:23:13they are really trendsetters in this area.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16And also, of course, the funds they're using
0:23:16 > 0:23:19are those which come to them largely from the Arts Council.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24I think the other factor was that it got onto television very quickly.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27There was the moment of course where one thinks of it now as a clip of...
0:23:27 > 0:23:29I think it was Fyfe Robertson sitting on the bricks
0:23:29 > 0:23:32and actually holding one up. That was somehow extraordinary.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35You might think in your innocence
0:23:35 > 0:23:38that you could lay them down anywhere, but no so.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42The American sculptor genius who fathered this,
0:23:42 > 0:23:44carefully numbered each brick.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47Even the BBC, you know, disgracefully really,
0:23:47 > 0:23:52allowed that ridiculous scene with that awful man Fyfe Robertson.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54Complete philistine.
0:23:54 > 0:23:55It was a disaster, really.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59They are doing great harm to art and to you and me
0:23:59 > 0:24:01in our attitude to art.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05And they are doing this by treating with all seriousness
0:24:05 > 0:24:08way-out crap as art.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11How do you think it would look in a gallery?
0:24:11 > 0:24:15Splendid, rather than what we have seen on television at the moment.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18Yes, there is more to it than just being flat on the floor.
0:24:18 > 0:24:20Oh, yes. Quite. Yeah. Lot of work in this, really.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23- What do you reckon, £12,000? - LAUGHTER
0:24:23 > 0:24:25Well, for me, 15.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27LAUGHTER
0:24:27 > 0:24:30I remember a building site. A guy with a hod with bricks in.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32Stood next to a pile of bricks.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35I remember thinking it was a pile of bricks,
0:24:35 > 0:24:37just like a pile at a building site,
0:24:37 > 0:24:39not even ordered or arranged or anything.
0:24:39 > 0:24:44And I remember seeing a cartoon of a pile of bricks.
0:24:50 > 0:24:54People 40 years ago were very suspicious of conceptual
0:24:54 > 0:24:56and modern art. They were distrustful of it.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59When they think about art in the '60s and '70s,
0:24:59 > 0:25:02they think about the kind of art they've grown up with
0:25:02 > 0:25:04and they've seen and taken for granted.
0:25:04 > 0:25:07You know, blockbuster exhibitions like the Constable exhibition
0:25:07 > 0:25:10which was running at the same time as the bricks controversy.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13Constable never had the least doubt that nature meant
0:25:13 > 0:25:17the visible world of tree, flower, river, field and sky
0:25:17 > 0:25:20exactly as they presented themselves to the senses.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23- ALL:- Hemisphere.
0:25:23 > 0:25:28Sunny interval over Cromarty.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30Northern...
0:25:30 > 0:25:33I think people are shocked and bewildered by what they see as
0:25:33 > 0:25:38the sort of artistic challenges of conceptual art, and minimalism,
0:25:38 > 0:25:42and brutalism, and performance art, and all these kinds of things.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44Norman Reid is the director of the Tate.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47I asked him what he though the gallery's purpose would be
0:25:47 > 0:25:48in the future.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50Well, to give pleasure, I think,
0:25:50 > 0:25:52which is basic to the whole idea.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57Norman Reid was the Tate director who, when he took over in the
0:25:57 > 0:26:02mid-1960s, dragged the Tate into the 20th century.
0:26:02 > 0:26:06I think we are constantly in this situation where we have to try
0:26:06 > 0:26:10to judge how much should we spend, how much do we need this,
0:26:10 > 0:26:12how much is it going to be significant in the future.
0:26:12 > 0:26:16He was the man who bought in the Rothko gift.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19You know, those great, huge abstract paintings by Mark Rothko -
0:26:19 > 0:26:20the American.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24And that was Norman's generation. He totally got all that.
0:26:26 > 0:26:31But I don't think he quite believed in the bricks, you know.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33You could tell,
0:26:33 > 0:26:35and I think I knew enough about him to know,
0:26:35 > 0:26:38that it wasn't really his sort of thing -
0:26:38 > 0:26:39the pile of bricks.
0:26:40 > 0:26:45As soon as the scale of the controversy became apparent,
0:26:45 > 0:26:49which was almost immediately, he issued an instruction that
0:26:49 > 0:26:51he should be the only person
0:26:51 > 0:26:54who should deal with the press about this.
0:26:57 > 0:27:00My colleagues and I were muzzled.
0:27:06 > 0:27:10Half of the Tate's job is to form a national collection of modern art.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12This is part of a more adventurous policy.
0:27:12 > 0:27:18He perhaps was not prepared for the public communications onslaught
0:27:18 > 0:27:21that came with the row about the bricks.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24It's certain that some of the exhibits will appear
0:27:24 > 0:27:28incomprehensible and even offensive to some visitors,
0:27:28 > 0:27:32in the same way as Constable's work was widely attacked in his own day.
0:27:32 > 0:27:34How much did you pay for the bricks?
0:27:34 > 0:27:36I can't say how much we paid for it
0:27:36 > 0:27:40because it is not our policy to disclose prices.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43# What about Daddy Cool?
0:27:43 > 0:27:47# I'm crazy like a fool
0:27:47 > 0:27:51# What about Daddy Cool... #
0:27:51 > 0:27:54It's very unfortunate that, at the time,
0:27:54 > 0:27:59the Tate refused point blank to reveal what it had paid.
0:27:59 > 0:28:02And I think they should have fessed up.
0:28:02 > 0:28:06# Daddy, Daddy Cool... #
0:28:14 > 0:28:16I was one of three of us whose job it was to go onto
0:28:16 > 0:28:20the floor of the gallery, stand in front of the works of art themselves
0:28:20 > 0:28:21and explain them to the public.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24School parties used to book in.
0:28:27 > 0:28:31Here we have 120 firebricks by the American artist Carl Andre.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34Six rows long, two rows high.
0:28:34 > 0:28:38# What about Daddy Cool?
0:28:39 > 0:28:41# I'm crazy like a fool... #
0:28:41 > 0:28:44So...what does it mean?
0:28:46 > 0:28:50# Daddy, Daddy Cool
0:28:50 > 0:28:53# Daddy, Daddy Cool... #
0:28:53 > 0:28:55There were a lot of comments, "But I don't get it.
0:28:55 > 0:28:57"It's just a pile of bricks."
0:28:57 > 0:29:01# Daddy, Daddy Cool... #
0:29:01 > 0:29:04It's the old thing, they want to know what it means.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06Everybody wants to know what works of art mean.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09The objections to the bricks were very, very simple.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12It was that people simply didn't understand them.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14I think there was still very much
0:29:14 > 0:29:15the attitude that, you know,
0:29:15 > 0:29:18somehow the public had to get it, you know.
0:29:18 > 0:29:21And if they didn't, it was tough.
0:29:21 > 0:29:26I think the Tate at the time failed to explain itself.
0:29:26 > 0:29:31It was a failure of communication, it was a failure to
0:29:31 > 0:29:33set that work in context,
0:29:33 > 0:29:36to explain where it came from art historically,
0:29:36 > 0:29:38why it was art historically significant.
0:29:40 > 0:29:44What the Tate should immediately have done was to explain what
0:29:44 > 0:29:45the eight Equivalents are.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50And it didn't, as far as I know, do anything of the kind.
0:29:50 > 0:29:52It certainly didn't do it in my presence.
0:29:52 > 0:29:54I was totally unaware of any explanation.
0:29:56 > 0:29:57Where the whole thing
0:29:57 > 0:30:00went wrong, I think, is going right back to
0:30:00 > 0:30:03the beginning when the Tate bought that piece.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06They bought only one of the eight Equivalents,
0:30:06 > 0:30:08they should have bought all eight.
0:30:10 > 0:30:14If they had bought all eight then the presentation of Equivalent VIII,
0:30:14 > 0:30:17which is the one they've got, would be
0:30:17 > 0:30:19perfectly logical even to people
0:30:19 > 0:30:22who hated it and wanted to write things in
0:30:22 > 0:30:24newspapers about "what a load of bricks".
0:30:26 > 0:30:28And if you've got eight variations
0:30:28 > 0:30:29on a theme in a room,
0:30:29 > 0:30:36even the stupidest people would begin to see something is going on.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39Don't understand it, but something is clearly going on
0:30:39 > 0:30:42between these eight various different-looking objects.
0:30:50 > 0:30:57You know, why should anybody be able to get art, you know, immediately?
0:30:57 > 0:31:00Why should art be accessible to everybody immediately?
0:31:00 > 0:31:04Even Renaissance art isn't really accessible to everybody immediately.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07It's a pretty difficult thing
0:31:07 > 0:31:09to know what all those symbols are.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17Somehow people think that art
0:31:17 > 0:31:21is different from other complex areas of our culture.
0:31:21 > 0:31:23I mean, art is like football.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28If you go to a football match and don't know the rules,
0:31:28 > 0:31:30and you are stuck up on the stands,
0:31:30 > 0:31:33and there are just a lot of men running around the pitch,
0:31:33 > 0:31:35I mean, it's meaningless.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39Art is like that, you need to know the rules.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43You need to understand the context, you need to know a bit about art.
0:31:43 > 0:31:44And you can't get away from that.
0:31:48 > 0:31:54The bricks themselves refer very, very much to the history of art.
0:31:54 > 0:32:00And by presenting a sculpture that is only bricks
0:32:00 > 0:32:02and where the material is the most
0:32:02 > 0:32:05overwhelmingly noticeable thing about it,
0:32:05 > 0:32:08he's highlighting and forcing you to think about
0:32:08 > 0:32:10the role of materials in art.
0:32:11 > 0:32:17If you are into art and sensitive to things that it has done,
0:32:17 > 0:32:22and interested in having your mind expanded by it, then
0:32:22 > 0:32:27it is possible to follow up some of the provocations of that work.
0:32:27 > 0:32:32But if you are not - and why should many people be - after all,
0:32:32 > 0:32:34it's rather a narrow interest.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37If you are not, then it feels much better
0:32:37 > 0:32:38to want to punch it.
0:32:46 > 0:32:51One piece of string, 100 paperclips.
0:32:51 > 0:32:58One photograph of a filing cabinet with row of paper cups on top.
0:32:58 > 0:33:02Meanwhile, the public was sending in their ideas of
0:33:02 > 0:33:06what they thought was a contemporary work in sort of joke form.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08Each had to be dealt with separately.
0:33:08 > 0:33:13A feather, a pebble, a piece of coal.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16One vacuum cleaner.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19VACUUM CLEANER HUMS
0:33:23 > 0:33:29We were inundated with parcels sent by members of the public.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32It became a pile in its own right.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42One of my roles at the Tate as research assistant
0:33:42 > 0:33:45was to write letters that would say, "Dear madam,
0:33:45 > 0:33:48"thank you so much for sending to the Tate your work of art entitled
0:33:48 > 0:33:50"A Varnished Kipper.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52"This has been thought of very carefully by the curators
0:33:52 > 0:33:56"and on this occasion the trustees do not feel they will be wishing
0:33:56 > 0:33:57"to acquire this work.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59"I will be sending it back to you by separate package."
0:34:02 > 0:34:05But that's what's so great, the running joke.
0:34:05 > 0:34:07You know, any old thing can be art.
0:34:07 > 0:34:09And I'm sure it happened in Duchamp's day too,
0:34:09 > 0:34:12you know, people rolling out any old thing and saying,
0:34:12 > 0:34:14"Hey, look at my artwork."
0:34:14 > 0:34:17And I think it became a wonderful performance piece.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19So it's hilarious that minimalism
0:34:19 > 0:34:21somehow gets the maximalist response.
0:34:21 > 0:34:24Many people in other countries,
0:34:24 > 0:34:28I think thought this was a very strange phenomenon -
0:34:28 > 0:34:29the bricks affair.
0:34:29 > 0:34:33They couldn't understand why all this fuss was being made about
0:34:33 > 0:34:37a very fine work which, in their own countries,
0:34:37 > 0:34:40would not have aroused all this fury.
0:34:40 > 0:34:43Well, I think what we have in Britain, and what we've always had
0:34:43 > 0:34:48is this self image of being pragmatic, no bullshit.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51And the bricks story absolutely brings that out.
0:34:51 > 0:34:53You see something that's a bit nonsensical
0:34:53 > 0:34:57and rather than bowing down in fealty to the artist
0:34:57 > 0:35:01who has created something incredibly highbrow, you say,
0:35:01 > 0:35:03"Nah, looks like a load of rubbish to me."
0:35:03 > 0:35:06And I think British people love to do that.
0:35:06 > 0:35:11We are naturally a very cynical, suspicious,
0:35:11 > 0:35:17intolerant of pretention, pragmatic, empirical kind of people.
0:35:17 > 0:35:19And actually, of course, we're right.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33I was head chef at TIME and LIFE Magazine,
0:35:33 > 0:35:35which I am quite proud of.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38# Can you hear the drums, Fernando? #
0:35:38 > 0:35:41And I went along with a friend of mine who lived in
0:35:41 > 0:35:44the top flat of the house I lived in,
0:35:44 > 0:35:48to see the Constable exhibition that was on at the Tate.
0:35:48 > 0:35:50And as we made the journey there,
0:35:50 > 0:35:54we decided we would go and see these controversial bricks.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56# Softly strumming your guitar
0:35:56 > 0:35:58# I could hear the distant drums
0:35:58 > 0:36:02# And sounds of bugle calls were coming from afar... #
0:36:02 > 0:36:09And so, we came away, sat on the Tube going back to Clapham North,
0:36:09 > 0:36:12where we both lived, and I said, "Jillkins..."
0:36:12 > 0:36:15I think I might do some sort of protest.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17And she said...
0:36:17 > 0:36:19Well, there's a suggestion box.
0:36:19 > 0:36:21You could write something harsh and put it in.
0:36:21 > 0:36:23And I said, "Well, no.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26"I feel something more radical is called for."
0:36:26 > 0:36:31# We were young and full of life and none of us prepared to die
0:36:31 > 0:36:33# And I'm not ashamed to say... #
0:36:33 > 0:36:36Yep, I decided I would go into the Tate Gallery
0:36:36 > 0:36:38and colour the bricks blue.
0:36:38 > 0:36:42# There was something in the air that night
0:36:42 > 0:36:47# The stars were bright, Fernando... #
0:36:47 > 0:36:51So I went and saw Jillkins about it and she said...
0:36:51 > 0:36:52You wouldn't.
0:36:52 > 0:36:54And I said, "No, I think I would."
0:36:56 > 0:37:01I put on a brand-new three-piece pinstripe blue suit.
0:37:01 > 0:37:05And I got to the Tate Gallery with my bottle.
0:37:05 > 0:37:09They were frisking everyone on the way in because of IRA bombs.
0:37:09 > 0:37:13So there was only one obvious place to put the bottle.
0:37:15 > 0:37:16So I went in.
0:37:22 > 0:37:24Went to the place where the bricks were.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27A lot of people milling around. Two security ladies.
0:37:29 > 0:37:31And I put my head chef's voice on and I said,
0:37:31 > 0:37:34"Could you all stand well back, please?"
0:37:34 > 0:37:35And they all stood well back.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39And I undid my bottle,
0:37:39 > 0:37:43and I made pretty designs and swirl patterns all over the bricks.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49And when the bottle was empty,
0:37:49 > 0:37:52I sort of, rather sarcastically, tapped the end of it
0:37:52 > 0:37:55like you would with a ketchup bottle.
0:37:58 > 0:38:00And everyone started clapping.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09And the security lady looked at me,
0:38:09 > 0:38:12you know, particularly with all this clapping going on, and she said...
0:38:12 > 0:38:14Are you the artist?
0:38:14 > 0:38:16And I said...
0:38:16 > 0:38:19No, love, I'm a protestor.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22And she said to her fellow colleague...
0:38:22 > 0:38:24Fuck me, Lil, we're in trouble, girl.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27And Lil looked at me and said...
0:38:27 > 0:38:29Are you dangerous?
0:38:29 > 0:38:32And I said no, I wasn't dangerous. And she said...
0:38:32 > 0:38:35Will you wait here while I go and get a security man?
0:38:35 > 0:38:38And I said, "Yeah, I'll wait here." And off they went.
0:38:38 > 0:38:42And it was at least seven minutes before they came back.
0:38:43 > 0:38:46Then along came the security man.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50He was a little snow-haired white commissionaire
0:38:50 > 0:38:52who probably fought in the last war.
0:38:52 > 0:38:54You're coming with me, son.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57I said, "Oh, come on. Don't do any strong-arm tactics.
0:38:57 > 0:38:59"I've been waiting here for ages for you to arrive."
0:38:59 > 0:39:01I said, "Just lead on."
0:39:04 > 0:39:06I was taken down to the basement,
0:39:06 > 0:39:09where the security was, to be grilled.
0:39:12 > 0:39:14Do you regret doing it?
0:39:14 > 0:39:17No, I most definitely do not regret doing it.
0:39:17 > 0:39:18No, not at all.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23# Though we never thought that we could lose
0:39:23 > 0:39:25# There's no regret
0:39:27 > 0:39:30# If I had to do the same again
0:39:30 > 0:39:35# I would, my friend, Fernando
0:39:36 > 0:39:39# If I had to do the same again
0:39:39 > 0:39:43# I would, my friend, Fernando... #
0:39:49 > 0:39:51Page three of the Sun.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54With me on page three, underneath the tits.
0:39:55 > 0:39:57And I'll tell you what it says.
0:39:57 > 0:40:01"Toff tips blue dye on Tate's bricks."
0:40:01 > 0:40:05And I suppose I did look like a city gent in a blue pin-stripe suit.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09We've got the Daily Telegraph here.
0:40:09 > 0:40:10And I'm slap bang in the middle.
0:40:10 > 0:40:15"Blue dye blacks out the Tate bricks."
0:40:15 > 0:40:19And as you can see, the paper does look like the Dead Sea Scrolls.
0:40:22 > 0:40:24After they photographed me full-on and sideways
0:40:24 > 0:40:27and done my fingerprints, they said,
0:40:27 > 0:40:30"You are banned for life now from the Tate."
0:40:30 > 0:40:32Have you ever been back to the Tate?
0:40:32 > 0:40:35Once or twice, I've nearly been back,
0:40:35 > 0:40:37but then I chickened out.
0:40:37 > 0:40:42But, I mean, they are hardly going to recognise some fat old man
0:40:42 > 0:40:44from this dashing 27-year-old, are they?
0:40:44 > 0:40:48"Here, we recognise you." HE LAUGHS
0:40:48 > 0:40:49As the saying goes -
0:40:49 > 0:40:52a lot of people may not know anything about art
0:40:52 > 0:40:53but they know what they like.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56Also what they dislike. Among the latter are many Englishmen.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59One Englishman disliked a current piece of art so much
0:40:59 > 0:41:03that he poured blue dye all over it. It has been taken away for cleaning
0:41:03 > 0:41:05but we are told that it will be back.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09I was in my office that afternoon and suddenly I got this
0:41:09 > 0:41:13message saying that somebody has thrown some paint over the bricks.
0:41:13 > 0:41:18This crazed guy threw what proved to be food dye over it
0:41:18 > 0:41:21and that gave the story new legs.
0:41:23 > 0:41:24I rushed down.
0:41:24 > 0:41:28Conservation department colleagues were there already.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32So, of course, the work had to be taken off view
0:41:32 > 0:41:36and the bricks had to be cleaned and restored, you know,
0:41:36 > 0:41:37which took some time.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40The trustees I think had become extremely defensive
0:41:40 > 0:41:44and very concerned about these attacks on the institution.
0:41:44 > 0:41:46There were a lot of different opinions inside the Tate
0:41:46 > 0:41:48about what might happen next.
0:41:48 > 0:41:50It was a time of extreme paranoia
0:41:50 > 0:41:53among the upper echelons of the Tate.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58Perhaps not surprisingly, there was a view from curators and
0:41:58 > 0:42:00conservators that if the bricks go back out,
0:42:00 > 0:42:02they couldn't go under a Perspex box.
0:42:02 > 0:42:05That would ruin the whole look of them.
0:42:05 > 0:42:09So the question arose about whether it was possible to get a full
0:42:09 > 0:42:12set of replacements - if needed - in the future.
0:42:12 > 0:42:16I was, as a junior, set the task of researching and finding
0:42:16 > 0:42:18the brickyard in New Jersey
0:42:18 > 0:42:21to see whether it was possible to replace the bricks, which,
0:42:21 > 0:42:24of course, were already a replacement by Carl Andre himself
0:42:24 > 0:42:26of the very first bricks he'd used.
0:42:30 > 0:42:32"Dear Sir,
0:42:32 > 0:42:35"I am writing to make enquires about acquiring some firebricks
0:42:35 > 0:42:39"manufactured by your company and shipping them to London.
0:42:39 > 0:42:44"We have in collection a sculpture by the American artist Carl Andre -
0:42:44 > 0:42:45"Equivalent VIII.
0:42:45 > 0:42:48"In order to be able to replace bricks which might get broken
0:42:48 > 0:42:51"or damaged in the future, we would like to purchase
0:42:51 > 0:42:53"a complete spare set of the bricks.
0:42:53 > 0:42:56"Could you give me an estimate for the cost of 120 firebricks
0:42:56 > 0:42:59"and, if possible, an estimate for packing and shipping the bricks
0:42:59 > 0:43:01"to London. Thank you for your help.
0:43:01 > 0:43:04"Yours faithfully, Sandy Nairne - research assistant."
0:43:06 > 0:43:09What emerged was that the same brickyard
0:43:09 > 0:43:12wasn't basically making the same bricks.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15And, of course, those bricks are wonderfully particular,
0:43:15 > 0:43:17they are firebricks, they don't have any indent.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20So you simply couldn't get a match
0:43:20 > 0:43:22in terms of the colour and specification,
0:43:22 > 0:43:25and having some other bricks that might have looked vaguely similar
0:43:25 > 0:43:27was not the point.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30They really did have to be the same and that wasn't going to exist.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34But I do feel - which I said at the time -
0:43:34 > 0:43:37it's like the emperor's new clothes.
0:43:37 > 0:43:41There are a lot of people in the art world who are scared
0:43:41 > 0:43:46to be seen as not being "with it".
0:43:46 > 0:43:49So instead of saying, "Well, that's a pile of old..."
0:43:49 > 0:43:52They say, "Oh, isn't it wonderful? How marvellous.
0:43:52 > 0:43:54"What a wonderful pile of bricks."
0:43:54 > 0:43:57But let's be honest, we know that when they go home
0:43:57 > 0:43:58they are not thinking that.
0:44:00 > 0:44:01It's crap.
0:44:01 > 0:44:02What is it then?
0:44:02 > 0:44:04Well, it's a pile of bricks.
0:44:04 > 0:44:06That's a pile of bricks, this is a pile of bricks.
0:44:06 > 0:44:11Until you do something with it, it will always be a pile of bricks.
0:44:11 > 0:44:14The building behind me - that's art.
0:44:14 > 0:44:15That's proper art, that.
0:44:16 > 0:44:18Cos they've made something of it.
0:44:18 > 0:44:21But a pile of bricks, it's just a pile of bricks.
0:44:27 > 0:44:30As it happens, the thing that people didn't like
0:44:30 > 0:44:33or said they didn't like about the Carl Andre work
0:44:33 > 0:44:36was that it didn't seem to have any skill.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39And in a way, that was the profoundest and most real thing
0:44:39 > 0:44:40that they were getting.
0:44:40 > 0:44:42That's true, it didn't have any skill.
0:44:42 > 0:44:44It had lots of other things which
0:44:44 > 0:44:47the people who didn't like it and thought he hadn't done anything
0:44:47 > 0:44:50were wrong about. But the one thing they were right about
0:44:50 > 0:44:54was that there was no actual technical or craft skill involved.
0:44:54 > 0:44:56There wasn't even any making, really.
0:44:56 > 0:45:01Right. Yes, well, you've now raised another major, major issue
0:45:01 > 0:45:03about the incomprehension
0:45:03 > 0:45:06of modern and contemporary art
0:45:06 > 0:45:08by the wider public.
0:45:08 > 0:45:12And that is the confusion between art and craft.
0:45:14 > 0:45:17Art is about ideas...in the end.
0:45:19 > 0:45:24The great artists develop the craft they need to carry out their ideas.
0:45:26 > 0:45:30- CARL ANDRE:- There was a confusion whether art is a craft and skill.
0:45:30 > 0:45:33And I cannot claim really craft and skill
0:45:33 > 0:45:36in the sense that I did not forge my metals,
0:45:36 > 0:45:38I did not mine the ore, I did not burn the brick.
0:45:38 > 0:45:41I did not do any of those things which are associated
0:45:41 > 0:45:43with the craft aspect of art.
0:45:43 > 0:45:48Now, I'm not saying you should not have craft and skill in art at all.
0:45:48 > 0:45:50I've never rejected craft.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53I've never undertaken it, which is a different question.
0:45:53 > 0:45:56I think there was a confusion in the general public's mind
0:45:56 > 0:45:59about skill in art. And there still is, I think.
0:45:59 > 0:46:02You still can't get away from the idea that the artist
0:46:02 > 0:46:04has to make things themselves
0:46:04 > 0:46:07and it has to have the hand of the artist and
0:46:07 > 0:46:08the mark of the artist.
0:46:08 > 0:46:11Marcel Duchamp submitted to a New York art show
0:46:11 > 0:46:14a public convenience entitled Fountain.
0:46:14 > 0:46:18In 1917, Duchamp had kind of created the idea of the ready-made -
0:46:18 > 0:46:22he bought a urinal from a plumber's merchant and signed it R Mutt.
0:46:22 > 0:46:26And it became an artwork. And that revolutionised 20th-century art.
0:46:26 > 0:46:28Duchamp wrote in the press,
0:46:28 > 0:46:31"Whether Mr Mutt with his own hands made the fountain or not
0:46:31 > 0:46:34"has no importance. He chose it.
0:46:34 > 0:46:36"He took an ordinary article of life,
0:46:36 > 0:46:38"placed it so that its useful significance disappeared
0:46:38 > 0:46:40"under the new point of view.
0:46:40 > 0:46:42"Created a new thought for that object."
0:46:56 > 0:47:01In 1972, the Tate Gallery purchased a work by Carl Andre
0:47:01 > 0:47:03dating from 1966.
0:47:03 > 0:47:07It is an example of minimal sculpture.
0:47:08 > 0:47:12The case of Carl Andre's sculpture will surely be of interest
0:47:12 > 0:47:16to future historians of taste.
0:47:17 > 0:47:23One of the journals that responded to the Carl Andre bricks controversy
0:47:23 > 0:47:27was the Burlington Magazine, which still today is regarded as
0:47:27 > 0:47:30one of the leading art magazines in the world.
0:47:30 > 0:47:34Right now, it raises a number of important issues.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38Just how far should a public gallery,
0:47:38 > 0:47:42which must impose its own kind of order on what it acquires,
0:47:42 > 0:47:47go on to accommodate changing attitudes towards art?
0:47:47 > 0:47:51At what point, if any, does it have to draw the line?
0:47:52 > 0:47:57We had initially criticised the Tate's acquisition of the bricks
0:47:57 > 0:48:00and raised questions about its validity as an object.
0:48:02 > 0:48:05Clearly the line of the editorial is that, by no means,
0:48:05 > 0:48:09is Andre's sculpture necessarily
0:48:09 > 0:48:12going to be vindicated by history.
0:48:14 > 0:48:19There are plenty of places where the latest thing can be seen.
0:48:20 > 0:48:24There is no longer any need to risk freezing
0:48:24 > 0:48:27in a permanent public record
0:48:27 > 0:48:32a mass of effective and showy work that may well,
0:48:32 > 0:48:35in a few decades, be regarded as trash.
0:48:36 > 0:48:40Well, I just thought it was outrageous that the subject wasn't
0:48:40 > 0:48:42being taken seriously enough.
0:48:42 > 0:48:47And we were very shocked that a magazine of that nature should have
0:48:47 > 0:48:51come out so hostile to the acquisition of this work.
0:48:52 > 0:48:55The director of the Tate, Norman Reid,
0:48:55 > 0:48:58insisted that the Tate should have the right of reply.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01For the Burlington to come out and criticise an acquisition like this
0:49:01 > 0:49:03was something that he needed to rebut.
0:49:03 > 0:49:07# This town ain't big enough for the both of us
0:49:07 > 0:49:10# And it ain't me who's gonna leave... #
0:49:11 > 0:49:17So Norman then asked me if I would write an article explaining
0:49:17 > 0:49:19why the Tate bought this work.
0:49:19 > 0:49:21# Flying
0:49:21 > 0:49:22# Domestic flying... #
0:49:22 > 0:49:25"The editorial in the April issue of the Burlington Magazine,
0:49:25 > 0:49:28"which criticised the Tate Gallery for purchasing one of
0:49:28 > 0:49:31"Carl Andre's firebrick sculptures was an astonishing item to find
0:49:31 > 0:49:33"in this particular magazine."
0:49:33 > 0:49:36# This town ain't big enough for the both of us
0:49:36 > 0:49:38# And it ain't me who's gonna leave... #
0:49:40 > 0:49:42He wrote this furious protest.
0:49:45 > 0:49:48"No attempt is made to answer the question whether minimal art
0:49:48 > 0:49:51"constitutes an important phase in the development of art.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54"And, if so, whether Carl Andre's work
0:49:54 > 0:49:58"is among the most important produced within that phase."
0:49:58 > 0:50:00# This town ain't big enough for the both of us... #
0:50:00 > 0:50:05It's a very interesting flash point, I think.
0:50:07 > 0:50:10He was talking to the artistic community
0:50:10 > 0:50:13and arguing for a new form of art.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16"In the Tate's view, the Andre will in time be accepted
0:50:16 > 0:50:19"as among the important art of its period."
0:50:19 > 0:50:24# I ain't gonna leave. #
0:50:26 > 0:50:29Yeah, we were on the wrong side of history with this editorial.
0:50:29 > 0:50:32It's not a line that we would hold to any more.
0:50:32 > 0:50:36Do you think the Tate were right to acquire it?
0:50:36 > 0:50:39Yes. History has vindicated the Tate for acquiring it.
0:50:39 > 0:50:44It stands now as a cornerstone
0:50:44 > 0:50:49of what minimalism has meant for art history.
0:50:49 > 0:50:52As Richard Morphet says in his article,
0:50:52 > 0:50:58time needs to pass before art takes its place in history
0:50:58 > 0:50:59and reveals its hand.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15The whole movement that Carl Andre was part of -
0:51:15 > 0:51:17minimalism and then conceptual art -
0:51:17 > 0:51:22that whole moment has, of course, being massively influential
0:51:22 > 0:51:25because you can't have Damien Hirst,
0:51:25 > 0:51:27Sarah Lucas,
0:51:27 > 0:51:28Tracey Emin...
0:51:28 > 0:51:35You can't have them without minimal and conceptual art
0:51:35 > 0:51:39having stirred things up to the extent that it did.
0:51:39 > 0:51:40I love minimal logic.
0:51:40 > 0:51:43I love all that logic of all those minimal artists.
0:51:43 > 0:51:45And they are actually beautiful objects,
0:51:45 > 0:51:47the arrangements are beautiful.
0:51:47 > 0:51:48And it's like, you know,
0:51:48 > 0:51:50they are easy to enjoy.
0:51:50 > 0:51:54Do you think there is a minimal influence in your work?
0:51:54 > 0:51:56Yeah, absolutely. My tanks are totally Sol LeWitt.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59You know, the reason why they look like they do is
0:51:59 > 0:52:01cos I thought, "I want a Sol LeWitt with a dead animal inside it."
0:52:03 > 0:52:05I wanted to put the emotion
0:52:05 > 0:52:07back into minimalism, in some way.
0:52:08 > 0:52:12And I think that's why they look like minimal sculpture.
0:52:12 > 0:52:14You know, I love minimalism now.
0:52:14 > 0:52:18I use the way it looks a lot in my own work.
0:52:18 > 0:52:21And I, as an artist, and a lot of other artists
0:52:21 > 0:52:24borrow from all these periods.
0:52:24 > 0:52:26We cherry-pick certain aspects and
0:52:26 > 0:52:29we are kind of liberated, really.
0:52:29 > 0:52:31It can be as wild and woolly
0:52:31 > 0:52:33or as minimal as you want it to be.
0:52:35 > 0:52:38MUSIC: Yes, Sir, I Can Boogie by Baccara
0:52:57 > 0:53:02After the white heat of the bricks affair cooled down,
0:53:02 > 0:53:06the bricks just took their place in the Tate's collection
0:53:06 > 0:53:11and were displayed from time to time in different arrangements of works.
0:53:12 > 0:53:15# Your eyes are full of hesitation
0:53:17 > 0:53:19# Which makes me wonder... #
0:53:19 > 0:53:24They are doing a wonderful job and they are a very important part of
0:53:24 > 0:53:28the Tate's collection of the art of that, by this time, distant period.
0:53:28 > 0:53:30# I wanna keep my reputation
0:53:33 > 0:53:34# I'm a sensation
0:53:37 > 0:53:41# You try me once you'll beg for more
0:53:41 > 0:53:45# Oh! Yes, sir, I can boogie
0:53:45 > 0:53:48# But I need a certain song
0:53:49 > 0:53:51# I can boogie
0:53:51 > 0:53:54# Boogie woogie all night long... #
0:53:54 > 0:53:58We are installing Carl Andre's sculpture Equivalent VIII
0:53:58 > 0:54:04in a new display of Tate's permanent collection at Tate Modern.
0:54:04 > 0:54:07It's a lynchpin of this display because it leads to lots of
0:54:07 > 0:54:10other developments in contemporary art that we're looking at.
0:54:13 > 0:54:14# No, sir
0:54:14 > 0:54:16# I don't feel very much... #
0:54:16 > 0:54:18The bricks have been integrated into this display,
0:54:18 > 0:54:24which actually reveals the influence of Andre.
0:54:24 > 0:54:28You can see the Carl Andre here now...
0:54:28 > 0:54:30in a context.
0:54:30 > 0:54:33The fascinating thing, of course,
0:54:33 > 0:54:35is to know what the public make of it now.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39There are those, of course,
0:54:39 > 0:54:41who don't really understand what it's all about at all.
0:54:41 > 0:54:42But I think there always will be.
0:54:42 > 0:54:44You know, it's interesting, isn't it?
0:54:44 > 0:54:46- I'm not sure that we understand. - Don't understand, no.
0:54:46 > 0:54:48- But we appreciate it.- Yeah.
0:54:50 > 0:54:52I thought they were very interesting.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55I like the colour, that sandstone yellowy colour.
0:54:55 > 0:54:57Almost like you're by the sea, walking on the beach.
0:54:57 > 0:55:00Do you think we're all a bit more open-minded about modern art now?
0:55:00 > 0:55:02- Yeah, definitely.- Yeah.
0:55:02 > 0:55:04We see modern art and we're used to it.
0:55:04 > 0:55:07We see, "Oh, that's very cool."
0:55:07 > 0:55:09# I can boogie
0:55:09 > 0:55:10# Boogie woogie... #
0:55:10 > 0:55:14You know, I've got no axe to grind against Carl Andre,
0:55:14 > 0:55:17the so-called sculptor. Good luck to him.
0:55:17 > 0:55:22I mean, if people are so bloody gullible, then so be it, you know.
0:55:24 > 0:55:28I have no shame in admitting to a certain philistinism
0:55:28 > 0:55:31when I see these kinds of things.
0:55:31 > 0:55:35I can't honestly say that the bricks are a work that
0:55:35 > 0:55:38have made me think about anything.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41When I look at something like Carl Andre's bricks...
0:55:41 > 0:55:44for me, it's a beautiful, quiet moment.
0:55:44 > 0:55:46You know, it's like a quietening of the mind.
0:55:46 > 0:55:48There's something very meditative about it.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50But art is something you have to stand in front of.
0:55:50 > 0:55:53And I think, very often, people standing in front of art - anyone -
0:55:53 > 0:55:54like Carl Andre's -
0:55:54 > 0:55:57people will go, "You know what? It's odd but I really like it."
0:56:01 > 0:56:03# Yes, sir
0:56:03 > 0:56:05# I can boogie... #
0:56:05 > 0:56:08Thinking back, it was described as a pile of bricks.
0:56:08 > 0:56:10But it clearly isn't a pile of bricks.
0:56:10 > 0:56:13It's some bricks that have carefully been arranged.
0:56:13 > 0:56:15# All night long... #
0:56:15 > 0:56:21I think I was never quite as negative as many people were.
0:56:21 > 0:56:26But as I've grown older and I've grown more familiar with bricks,
0:56:26 > 0:56:27I've grown to love it in
0:56:27 > 0:56:29quite a serious way now.
0:56:29 > 0:56:33I think it is a nice-looking piece of artwork.
0:56:33 > 0:56:36I think the shape of it, the layout of it,
0:56:36 > 0:56:38actually seems to work very well for me.