0:00:02 > 0:00:06This programme contains some strong language
0:00:06 > 0:00:09In 1973, a group of pioneering young women started a publishing company
0:00:09 > 0:00:13with the aim of changing the way the world saw women...
0:00:13 > 0:00:15My pants...
0:00:15 > 0:00:18ruined! And it's all your fault.
0:00:18 > 0:00:20..and how women saw themselves.
0:00:20 > 0:00:23I've got to meet Tom on a big business deal.
0:00:23 > 0:00:27Now here we have...looks to me like The New Yorker.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30"Stop moaning and get on with the story.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32"Women, and especially women writers,
0:00:32 > 0:00:34"have no use for destiny.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37"They wouldn't compose a Hamlet if they could."
0:00:37 > 0:00:39SHE LAUGHS
0:00:39 > 0:00:41One of them said about Alice Munroe,
0:00:41 > 0:00:44"Well, you might be a good short story writer,
0:00:44 > 0:00:45"but I don't want to go to bed with you."
0:00:45 > 0:00:48Women won the right to vote in 1929,
0:00:48 > 0:00:50but even by the '70s,
0:00:50 > 0:00:53women struggled to be taken seriously.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56I want to tell you, you have beautiful eyes.
0:00:58 > 0:01:01The male gaze was often directed below the neck.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03It was a man's world,
0:01:03 > 0:01:05women were not even meant to be interested in the news.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08You know, there were no women newsreaders.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10I mean, I can remember we used to get very strange looks.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13Women didn't go into pubs, and couldn't get a mortgage.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17Whenever I got my tax return from the Government,
0:01:17 > 0:01:19it always had a headline,
0:01:19 > 0:01:22"If you have a husband, this form is addressed to him."
0:01:22 > 0:01:25- Can you believe that? - That's right.- Yes...
0:01:25 > 0:01:27Young women entering publishing
0:01:27 > 0:01:30were rarely given the power to make decisions.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32A lot of publishing was like a gentlemen's club.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36Your typical joiner was
0:01:36 > 0:01:38a highly-educated woman
0:01:38 > 0:01:41with at least one degree from a top university,
0:01:41 > 0:01:43and who was also willing to type.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49The issue of women being silenced and being invisible was huge.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53We just weren't being heard
0:01:53 > 0:01:55because nobody was listening.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59Women were writing in a man's world.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02Virago took women into their own world,
0:02:02 > 0:02:04and their own perspective.
0:02:04 > 0:02:08We were all learning to give ourselves the validity
0:02:08 > 0:02:10to realise that we could run companies,
0:02:10 > 0:02:12we could make decisions,
0:02:12 > 0:02:14we could demand equal pay.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16And we lived with those sort of men, particularly,
0:02:16 > 0:02:20who would be amazed if you said, "Up yours."
0:02:20 > 0:02:23I always wanted to change the world, it simply wasn't good enough.
0:02:23 > 0:02:25You have to fight.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32This is the story of how Virago changed the world.
0:02:32 > 0:02:34One page at a time.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46There was nothing you could do, really, in my world,
0:02:46 > 0:02:50of book publishing, except do publicity and marketing.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53And the reason they wanted you to do publicity is that they chose...
0:02:53 > 0:02:55If you were adequate-looking,
0:02:55 > 0:02:57you'd be sent out to flirt with journalists
0:02:57 > 0:03:00and get coverage in newspapers.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02There was a particularly nauseating old man
0:03:02 > 0:03:05who used to put his hand on your rather plump thigh,
0:03:05 > 0:03:06and stuff like that.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08Oh!
0:03:08 > 0:03:11Nobody ever told you you could run anything.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16The media was aggressively male.
0:03:16 > 0:03:18There was a culture of alcoholism,
0:03:18 > 0:03:20of drink, of cigarettes,
0:03:20 > 0:03:23and indeed of exploiting women.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29I'd go along on to a sales conference... Well...
0:03:29 > 0:03:32any old man used to think he could get you into bed.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34It was like the wolves were on the loose.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37By that time, say 1970,
0:03:37 > 0:03:39I was 32,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42and I'd had a good eight years
0:03:42 > 0:03:44living in the working world.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48And that would turn anybody into a raving feminist in those days.
0:03:48 > 0:03:50Girls, would you please turn?
0:03:52 > 0:03:54WOLF WHISTLE
0:03:56 > 0:03:59The proceedings have been temporarily suspended...
0:04:04 > 0:04:08I am very, very happy to be here at this cattle market, tonight.
0:04:08 > 0:04:10- AUDIENCE LAUGH - Moo!
0:04:10 > 0:04:12People often ask me if we were influenced by
0:04:12 > 0:04:14American feminism and things like that,
0:04:14 > 0:04:17but I felt influenced by you two.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21And I think there was a sort of blast of the can-do-ism going on, you know?
0:04:21 > 0:04:25- We all felt we could do things. - Completely. Completely.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27I felt I could do anything.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37We had no money to pay for a publicist.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39- Oh, did I do it for free? So, you were...- Yes.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41I definitely remember saying to you,
0:04:41 > 0:04:44"I think what you're doing is so wonderful,
0:04:44 > 0:04:45"I want to do it for books."
0:04:45 > 0:04:47And that's when I went to see John Boothe and said,
0:04:47 > 0:04:49"I want you to finance it."
0:04:50 > 0:04:54I went to one of the four men who ran Quartet, and I said,
0:04:54 > 0:04:56"Look, what I want to do is have my own publishing imprint,
0:04:56 > 0:04:58"and I want it to be a feminist publishing imprint,
0:04:58 > 0:05:02"publish women's writing so that they get a more fair crack of the whip
0:05:02 > 0:05:04"in EVERY way."
0:05:04 > 0:05:07My immediate reaction was that it was an interesting idea,
0:05:07 > 0:05:09and absolutely timely,
0:05:09 > 0:05:11because "Women's Lib",
0:05:11 > 0:05:15as it was called then, was very much a big issue.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Cos the concept of "wife" isn't some sure concept.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28It presupposes a whole way of life that we haven't even discussed yet.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31What are you doing at a women's liberation conference?
0:05:31 > 0:05:33- The whole thing was so exhausting... - Wasn't it?
0:05:33 > 0:05:37Cos we were changing ourselves from inside out, and the way we...
0:05:37 > 0:05:40Patterns of thought. But this is what feminists, feminism was doing.
0:05:40 > 0:05:44- It was.- We took that phrase, "The personal is political,"
0:05:44 > 0:05:45which was, for me,
0:05:45 > 0:05:48incredibly important, because it was how you lived,
0:05:48 > 0:05:50who did the shopping, who did the cooking.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54I mean, did you have sexual rights, and rights to say no?
0:05:54 > 0:05:55They were really big things.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01I was a latecomer to feminism.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04The stereotypes of...
0:06:04 > 0:06:09femininity were firmly embedded in my head, I think.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12Passivity.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14Conformity, to some extent.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16- That's me.- Yes.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20'I didn't have ambitions to have a career at all. Not at all.'
0:06:21 > 0:06:25- What is that?- I think that's you, isn't it?- Yes, it is me.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28- On a demonstration.- And are you there, is she in there?
0:06:28 > 0:06:31- No, no, because...- There am I in the corner.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34This one is Marsha Rowe
0:06:34 > 0:06:36holding the Spare Rib banner, which...
0:06:36 > 0:06:38And there were we...
0:06:39 > 0:06:43- Abortion.- That was the abortion march, isn't it?- Yes.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46This is me and Lynne Segal and Hermione Harris.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50I went to a women's movement meeting,
0:06:50 > 0:06:52at Sheila Rowbotham's house,
0:06:52 > 0:06:56and I just thought it sounded interesting, and I went along.
0:06:56 > 0:06:58And it was a revelation.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02I think we were talking about work, women and work.
0:07:02 > 0:07:06And I just remember this feeling of intensity in the room.
0:07:06 > 0:07:07And passion.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10And being a person who responded a lot
0:07:10 > 0:07:14to intensity and passion, I thought it was just great.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17Actually, we did really find it interesting
0:07:17 > 0:07:21- talking about things like Simone de Beauvoir En Ingles.- We did.
0:07:21 > 0:07:25- But we were always worried...- And Havelock Ellis and Olive Schreiner.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28We felt, "We are not a PROPER conciousness-raising group..."
0:07:28 > 0:07:31- We weren't.- ..because the theory of the consciousness-raising group
0:07:31 > 0:07:33was that you were meant to bring
0:07:33 > 0:07:36- your personal life into the group.- Yup.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42I remember some nights, there were suddenly huge revelations.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45I remember a night talking about
0:07:45 > 0:07:48- which of us had been raped, or attempted rape...- Yeah.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51And I'd say of the 11 people there, or whatever it was,
0:07:51 > 0:07:55seven of them had either been raped or had attempted rape.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08When I started the company, it was called Spare Rib Books,
0:08:08 > 0:08:09and I then I changed the title,
0:08:09 > 0:08:13and I had a whole row of thesauruses, you know.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16Gods of the world, monsters of the world, kings of the world.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20- And we didn't like any of the goddesses. Diana...- No.
0:08:20 > 0:08:22And you saw Virago.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25- And then we looked up its meaning. - Yes.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29"Fury, harpy, harridan, hussy, muckraker..."
0:08:29 > 0:08:32- "Scold, she-devil..."- "Tigress..."
0:08:32 > 0:08:34- "..spitfire..."- "..vituperator..." - "..witch..."
0:08:34 > 0:08:37- "..vixen, hench.." - "..an heroic woman."
0:08:37 > 0:08:41Heroic, and also the feeling that it was a slightly stroppy person.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43- Yes, stroppy, heroic woman. - I love that. Fit you down to a T.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46THEY LAUGH
0:08:46 > 0:08:48What we had in common, completely,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51was our desire to give women
0:08:51 > 0:08:54the opportunity to write,
0:08:54 > 0:08:58express their thoughts, publish books and, more important I think,
0:08:58 > 0:09:02to realise that they had a history of their own.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11I think we were reluctant to just take on more work.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14- You had no time at all. - This was '74.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16- There's an ad...- Oh, look at that.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20..for Virago, announcing that we'll come out the next year.
0:09:20 > 0:09:21Isn't that marvellous?
0:09:21 > 0:09:26She was looking for someone. So we had lunch.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Ursula. She was the serious one,
0:09:29 > 0:09:32and the one who had the academic contacts.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35The historians, and the wonderful women who were writing
0:09:35 > 0:09:39and researching women's history at the time.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41I think she gave us feminists... What would you call it?
0:09:41 > 0:09:43Credentials.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46I started doing sort of freelance...
0:09:46 > 0:09:48unpaid work.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51That's Smith Street, where I started Virago.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55That was the photograph of the three of us.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57There's Harriet...
0:09:57 > 0:10:00moi, and Ursula.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02The first job I did was
0:10:02 > 0:10:04working for Carmen Callil,
0:10:04 > 0:10:06who absolutely knew her worth.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10I only knew publicity and marketing.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12I knew nothing about finance,
0:10:12 > 0:10:16cash flow, profit and loss. Nothing.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18And I had to teach myself.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21And that was lovely. I loved doing that.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26I thought the bank manager would have a seizure when I asked him
0:10:26 > 0:10:28for an overdraft. And um...
0:10:28 > 0:10:33I had to get two men to guarantee the overdraft, two businessmen.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36Which was easily done. I couldn't get it for myself.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39Well, you can't start any car without the spark!
0:10:39 > 0:10:43Carmen and I went to have tea at the Ritz with Bob Gavron,
0:10:43 > 0:10:48and he agreed a £25,000 guarantee,
0:10:48 > 0:10:49so not money, but a guarantee.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51# One lump or two I won't need any
0:10:51 > 0:10:53# Your sweetness will do... #
0:10:53 > 0:10:57That's what they sent you to school and university for.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00Flutter your eyelashes, "Would you mind guaranteeing my
0:11:00 > 0:11:04"overdraft at Barclays Bank, so I can bring down the world?"
0:11:04 > 0:11:05SHE LAUGHS
0:11:12 > 0:11:15- INTERVIEWER: Did you ever put any of your own money in?- Yes. Yes, yes.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19What we all did is to
0:11:19 > 0:11:22put our houses... Insane, really...
0:11:22 > 0:11:25Our mortgages on the line.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28That was insane, I had a two-year-old child.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32That was what the flat looked like.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34This is the room...
0:11:35 > 0:11:39In the evenings we would sit around and drink red wine and read things.
0:11:39 > 0:11:42So, you know, we started reading manuscripts.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45And Carmen had already started commissioning manuscripts.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48I don't know why people were always taking the cats.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57The very first book was Fenwomen.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03It's an old history of the women who lived in this particular
0:12:03 > 0:12:04Cambridgeshire village in the Fens.
0:12:06 > 0:12:10"The pressure for village girls to marry is strong.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14"They marry young and many have families by the time they are 20.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17"But although the dream of married bliss may fade rapidly,
0:12:17 > 0:12:21"with his night out with the boys, and her fourth-hand washing machine,
0:12:21 > 0:12:24"divorce in the village is unheard of.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27"Child-rearing, the great unacknowledged profession,
0:12:27 > 0:12:30"is entirely her responsibility."
0:12:33 > 0:12:37One of the stories, one of the many that I recorded,
0:12:37 > 0:12:39of a women who had nine children,
0:12:39 > 0:12:41who had nothing to eat.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44Absolutely nothing to give them.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Nothing.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48The News of the World was disgraceful.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52"A dirty trick has been played on the women of Isleham.
0:12:52 > 0:12:55"Suddenly, some of their most private feelings and opinions
0:12:55 > 0:12:59"are held up to public ridicule and amusement.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02"It's little more than a peepshow," it says here.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06I liked this one, that understood what you were really trying to do.
0:13:06 > 0:13:10"Women who kept 20 children on 10 bob a week." Nothing has changed...
0:13:10 > 0:13:13- Yeah.- ..but, still, that's what the book was about. I mean, these were women...
0:13:13 > 0:13:14It was about survival.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19Feminism itself, it's still a dirty word, in a way.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22I certainly was a dirty word in the '70s.
0:13:22 > 0:13:26Carmen Callil - "Why should history belong to men?"
0:13:26 > 0:13:29They photographed me in front of a dart board,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32with my mouth open.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35- I mean, unbelievable! - We were fair game.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37This was the first book
0:13:37 > 0:13:39of a feminist publishing house.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41Maybe we didn't...expect it,
0:13:41 > 0:13:44but that's what happened. They put as all down.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48"Bra-burning, men-hating women's libbers."
0:13:48 > 0:13:50We did 12 books the first year.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54I remember that, because at the first press conference
0:13:54 > 0:13:58a man put up his hand at the back of the room and said,
0:13:58 > 0:14:01"How are you going to find enough books for next year?"
0:14:04 > 0:14:06We produced the first books because Harriet,
0:14:06 > 0:14:08who was the star of the whole enterprise,
0:14:08 > 0:14:11taught herself production. Amazing.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13That's an abiding memory.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17Of unpacking the books as they just arrived,
0:14:17 > 0:14:19in the binder's parcels of 40,
0:14:19 > 0:14:23and seeing if...
0:14:23 > 0:14:25the cover and everything had worked.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28That was absolutely, em...
0:14:30 > 0:14:32..a, you know, top moment,
0:14:32 > 0:14:34cos there was a lot of anxiety.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42Angela Carter, the novelist and writer,
0:14:42 > 0:14:46wrote a book for me which was called The Sadeian Woman.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49But I think I paid her...£25.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51And so she couldn't write it for years, because she didn't
0:14:51 > 0:14:55have any money either, so that it waited and waited.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03The Sadeian Woman I remember being huge, actually.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06Because, when I think about it now, it was ahead of its time, you know.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10She was giving a feminist reappraisal of the Marquis de Sade,
0:15:10 > 0:15:12the last person you would think that
0:15:12 > 0:15:15a feminist could find any kind of sympathy with.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18By 1976, I thought we needed an office.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26They were in Soho.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28Land of strip clubs.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30So, you went up the stairs...
0:15:30 > 0:15:32lump, lump, lump, lump...
0:15:32 > 0:15:36and on the bottom there was a massage parlour, so...
0:15:36 > 0:15:38as you went up the stairs you were sort of eyed,
0:15:38 > 0:15:40because people, of course, would think,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43"What are all those women going up the stairs for?"
0:15:46 > 0:15:50- It certainly wasn't as bright and white, was it?- No, nor clean.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52It was really dingy, and much bigger.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54We just had one big room,
0:15:54 > 0:15:57and all of us worked in it together.
0:15:57 > 0:15:58With me being a tyrant.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02Carmen, Ursula and myself were there.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Alexandra Pringle joined,
0:16:05 > 0:16:09and... Lennie, wonderfully, wrote saying,
0:16:09 > 0:16:11"Would Carmen like any help with publicity?"
0:16:11 > 0:16:13I was given the grand title, "Publicity Manager",
0:16:13 > 0:16:16which, frankly, meant typing labels.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19- I think you sat here.- You sat here. - Well, you sat there.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21- I had two different times. - And Carmen sat there, did she?
0:16:21 > 0:16:23Over there. In the sort of Jacuzzi.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29They had three typewriters and it was...
0:16:29 > 0:16:32- TYPES ON TABLE - ..it was crazy, really.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35- URSULA:- It was so quick on those electric typewriters.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38I think quicker than on anything I've ever done since.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40- LENNIE:- 'It was incredibly orderly.'
0:16:40 > 0:16:42Very hard-working.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44I did have a motor car, terrible old banger.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47And I'd go around delivering everything by hand to people
0:16:47 > 0:16:48to save the post.
0:16:48 > 0:16:52Oh, stay up all night and do it, you know?
0:16:52 > 0:16:55You've got to get the light bulbs...
0:16:55 > 0:16:57loo paper.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59Then I'd go and sign up an author.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03We didn't earn a lot of money. We didn't pay each other much.
0:17:03 > 0:17:06For years.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09And everybody had to work extraordinary long hours.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11And some of them had children.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13It was difficult.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16INTERVIEWER: What was Carmen like to work for?
0:17:16 > 0:17:20She's famously pictured as being
0:17:20 > 0:17:23difficult to work for... Um...
0:17:23 > 0:17:26She was not easy, that is true.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29You think, "What the fuck are you doing, you idiot?"
0:17:29 > 0:17:32And in England they would say this is an absolute nightmare that
0:17:32 > 0:17:33I said this to a...
0:17:33 > 0:17:35"You said that to a young woman who worked for you?"
0:17:35 > 0:17:37And I would say,
0:17:37 > 0:17:40"Why is it she's inferior to me because she's working for me?
0:17:40 > 0:17:42"She can tell me to fuck off."
0:17:44 > 0:17:47- ALEXANDRA:- Do you remember you used to often go and dictate your letters in the lavatory?- Yes.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50And I used to go in and you'd be sitting there, dictating away!
0:17:50 > 0:17:51And we had some poor woman, didn't we?
0:17:51 > 0:17:53And I remember once you did it on the roof,
0:17:53 > 0:17:56and the gust of wind took your correspondence away,
0:17:56 > 0:17:58and you said, "Alexandra, Alexandra, get up here!"
0:17:58 > 0:18:00- And I had this really tight skirt... - As ever.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04..and I had to climb out, and I was dashing round these rooftops
0:18:04 > 0:18:06picking up your correspondence!
0:18:06 > 0:18:07SHE LAUGHS
0:18:07 > 0:18:09Carmen was the managing director,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12and she wanted things
0:18:12 > 0:18:14to be pretty much her way,
0:18:14 > 0:18:16and sometimes there were arguments about it,
0:18:16 > 0:18:19and tensions about it.
0:18:19 > 0:18:23INTERVIEWER: I have heard some stories of people crying in the toilets.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26Crying in the toilets. I cried in the toilets, too.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29I mean, everybody dished it out.
0:18:30 > 0:18:34And I think my personality was very, very...
0:18:34 > 0:18:37tyrannical when it came to making sure the company survived,
0:18:37 > 0:18:39and that the authors
0:18:39 > 0:18:41and books were served properly,
0:18:41 > 0:18:43and to get their work out there.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56What I think was miraculous
0:18:56 > 0:18:59about the Virago Modern Classics
0:18:59 > 0:19:02is that, until they came along,
0:19:02 > 0:19:05we women who read,
0:19:05 > 0:19:08we didn't understand our own history,
0:19:08 > 0:19:11our own fiction history.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14We might have known Virginia Woolf and
0:19:14 > 0:19:15Jane Austen and George Eliot
0:19:15 > 0:19:17and the Brontes and so on,
0:19:17 > 0:19:20but there were a lot of gaps in between those.
0:19:21 > 0:19:26I started the classics list cos somebody gave me Frost In May.
0:19:26 > 0:19:30And when I read it, it was the story of my life in the convent.
0:19:32 > 0:19:36It's about a little girl who writes a vivid novel,
0:19:36 > 0:19:38and the nuns come across it,
0:19:38 > 0:19:41and they think it's full of sin,
0:19:41 > 0:19:43and she's expelled from school.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45And she's destroyed for life by this.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49This is when the Mother Superior comes in,
0:19:49 > 0:19:53the Mother Superior dressed in black with her wimple.
0:19:55 > 0:19:59"I told you once before that every will must be broken completely.
0:20:01 > 0:20:06"Nanda glanced at the nun's face. It was pale and controlled as usual,
0:20:06 > 0:20:10"yet lighted with an extraordinary, quiet exultation.
0:20:10 > 0:20:16"'Mother, mother, won't you give me one more chance?' Nanda begged, suddenly.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20"The nun appeared to think for a minute, then kindly she said,
0:20:20 > 0:20:22"'No, my dear.'"
0:20:25 > 0:20:27Joyless.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30And when they see joy in children, they take it away.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34That's what Frost In May was about. Death of the soul.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37And I thought, "I've got to think of a way of publishing fiction."
0:20:41 > 0:20:45Week after week, you were reading these remarkable stories by
0:20:45 > 0:20:47very polished stylists,
0:20:47 > 0:20:50coming at the world from a very different point of view.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53Telling you about bits of 19th or 20th century history that you
0:20:53 > 0:20:57hadn't heard before, from a female perspective.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01And realising, a bit like a pointillist painting,
0:21:01 > 0:21:04that all of these dots had been missing from the canvas.
0:21:06 > 0:21:10This is from Henry Handel Richardson's Maurice Guest,
0:21:10 > 0:21:12which is one of my favourite...
0:21:12 > 0:21:14Virago Modern Classics.
0:21:14 > 0:21:20"He was very happy and very unhappy, by turns - never at rest.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23"If he imagined she had looked observantly at him
0:21:23 > 0:21:26"as she passed, he was elated for hours after."
0:21:29 > 0:21:33They branded it, they were green, it was...
0:21:33 > 0:21:36And it's very difficult to create a brand from nothing, and they did.
0:21:37 > 0:21:42"His self-consciousness was so peculiarly intensified that
0:21:42 > 0:21:44"his surroundings ceased to exist for him -
0:21:44 > 0:21:47"they two were the gigantic figures on a shadow background."
0:21:51 > 0:21:55She's a classic example, E Arnot Robinson.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57Two wonderful novels.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01The doing of reprints and the uncovering of already published
0:22:01 > 0:22:05things that had disappeared was as exciting as new books.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09There was Elizabeth Taylor, there was Rosamond Lehmann,
0:22:09 > 0:22:12there was Antonia White, there were so many of them.
0:22:13 > 0:22:17They went back to the past, uncovering these astonishingly
0:22:17 > 0:22:20good books which, for whatever reason, had been neglected.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23Finding the jacket was enthralling,
0:22:23 > 0:22:28so Carmen and I used to go around the Royal Academy Summer Exhibition every year,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31and I'd be there with my notebook, and she was not interested in
0:22:31 > 0:22:34seeing anything unless it was interesting for a Virago Modern Classics cover.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37And so she was like, "No, no, no, no. Yes, that one."
0:22:37 > 0:22:40So I'd note it down so I knew which one it was.
0:22:40 > 0:22:44"He lost touch with reality and dreamed dreams of imperceptible
0:22:44 > 0:22:47"threads, finer than any gossamer,
0:22:47 > 0:22:51"which could be spun from soul to soul without the need of speech."
0:22:53 > 0:22:55That's a description of obsessive love
0:22:55 > 0:22:59which I absolutely adore, having experienced it certain times myself.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03A most painful emotion. Never to be repeated.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05But it's a perfect description of it.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24Today, I'm going to be speaking to Jo Kingham, who is one of the...
0:23:24 > 0:23:27Who is the daughter of one of the best-loved writers on the Virago
0:23:27 > 0:23:30Modern Classics list, Elizabeth Taylor.
0:23:30 > 0:23:35Your mother, in her lifetime, was admired by many writers, and
0:23:35 > 0:23:39Kingsley Amis said she was one of the best English novelists born this century.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41Do you feel that she's as recognised,
0:23:41 > 0:23:47- she was as recognised then as she is today?- No, I don't think she was.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51I think she'd be astonished, thanks to Virago,
0:23:51 > 0:23:55who have published everything and kept her on the shelves in all
0:23:55 > 0:23:57the bookshops, and I think as the family,
0:23:57 > 0:24:01we owe a huge debt to Virago, but I think she would have been thrilled.
0:24:03 > 0:24:05You just need to put these books into people's hands,
0:24:05 > 0:24:07you need to make them look...
0:24:07 > 0:24:12You need to make them look fresh again and like something that
0:24:12 > 0:24:15you'd... That a contemporary audience would enjoy.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17And would relate to.
0:24:22 > 0:24:27We've all had that thing, people saying... You go to parties, you say you worked at Virago, people say,
0:24:27 > 0:24:31- "You don't look like a feminist." - "And you're not wearing dungarees."
0:24:31 > 0:24:34Everybody thought, "She's gone to Virago, she's got short hair.
0:24:34 > 0:24:35"Oh, she's become a lesbian."
0:24:35 > 0:24:38I remember ringing a newspaper, possibly even the Guardian,
0:24:38 > 0:24:40and said, "We've got so-and-so."
0:24:40 > 0:24:43And they said, "Oh, we had a woman last week. In the feature.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45"We featured a woman last week."
0:24:49 > 0:24:52'I think when you want to change the status quo in England,
0:24:52 > 0:24:54'you've got enemies, really, haven't you?
0:24:54 > 0:24:57'But one is definitely the British press.'
0:24:59 > 0:25:03I love Kate O'Brien. Let's get her out.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07'Anthony Burgess really dominated the Observer.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10'When he wrote a review of one of our books,'
0:25:10 > 0:25:12it was Dorothy Richardson's Pilgrimage, and he said,
0:25:12 > 0:25:17"This is astonishing, it's so wonderful that it's back in print.
0:25:17 > 0:25:20"Sort of predates Joyce for a stream of consciousness.
0:25:20 > 0:25:22"Too bad it had to be published by those sows."
0:25:24 > 0:25:28Leonora Carrington was the one that Alexandra loved.
0:25:28 > 0:25:32"By no stretch of usage can Virago be made not to signify shrew,
0:25:32 > 0:25:35"a scold, an ill-tempered woman,
0:25:35 > 0:25:39"unless we go back to the etymology, a man-like maiden."
0:25:39 > 0:25:40She's wonderful.
0:25:40 > 0:25:44"It is an unlovely and aggressive name.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47"Even for a militant, feminist organisation.
0:25:48 > 0:25:54"And it presides awkwardly over the reissue of a great roman-fleuve,
0:25:54 > 0:25:59"which is too important to be associated with chauvinist sows."
0:26:03 > 0:26:04Oh!
0:26:09 > 0:26:13I think it's because they thought of feminists as a race apart.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17And I think that was one of the biggest problems, really.
0:26:19 > 0:26:22- INTERVIEWER:- What kind of response were you getting from readers?
0:26:22 > 0:26:25Oh, my God, amazing.
0:26:25 > 0:26:29Bag loads. Letters from teachers saying,
0:26:29 > 0:26:31"I really want to talk about feminism in the class,
0:26:31 > 0:26:34"I want to change the curriculum, I would like more women...
0:26:34 > 0:26:36"Please send me posters."
0:26:36 > 0:26:39You'd get women's groups, from the WI,
0:26:39 > 0:26:43right through to radical feminist groups who wanted a speaker to come.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47It opened so many doors for readers.
0:26:47 > 0:26:50People would go into bookshops and ask for the next Virago book.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54Virago wanted to be mainstream.
0:26:54 > 0:26:57You know, we were always set up not to be niche,
0:26:57 > 0:27:00to be on the high street. This was Carmen's idea.
0:27:00 > 0:27:05And Ursula's, too. But I really stayed with that we represent 53%
0:27:05 > 0:27:09of the population, we want everyone to read our books.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12And we might publish from the margins, but we are not marginal.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15That wasn't always popular in the kind of more radical ends of
0:27:15 > 0:27:19feminism in the '70s and '80s.
0:27:19 > 0:27:23- Have you not read this book?- No, I haven't. One of the best Virago writers, I'm told.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27There wasn't one feminism, there were many, many feminisms.
0:27:27 > 0:27:32The women's movement in the '70s, I think, was dominated by white,
0:27:32 > 0:27:35middle-class, mostly heterosexual women.
0:27:35 > 0:27:39And there were quite a lot of women who started to resent that,
0:27:39 > 0:27:43I think, and felt their interests as black women or working-class
0:27:43 > 0:27:47women or lesbians, you know, were not being represented and so they
0:27:47 > 0:27:51wanted to have, and they did have, their own groups.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54I think there'd been a very romantic view earlier on
0:27:54 > 0:27:59about sisterhood, that somehow we could all work together,
0:27:59 > 0:28:02we were all women, and we were united by that.
0:28:02 > 0:28:06But in '78, at what turned out to be the last conference,
0:28:06 > 0:28:07there was a lot of booing and shouting.
0:28:07 > 0:28:12And there was that recognition that it no longer became tenable
0:28:12 > 0:28:17to really keep a kind of national, collective organisation together.
0:28:20 > 0:28:24There always were different views of feminism from day one.
0:28:24 > 0:28:27We commissioned a book, which never got written, called Feminisms,
0:28:27 > 0:28:30because people often don't understand,
0:28:30 > 0:28:33there are just so many different forms.
0:28:35 > 0:28:37Ursula was very much connected with what I called the
0:28:37 > 0:28:40North London Socialist lot of feminists.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43And a lot of them were academics and they had done
0:28:43 > 0:28:47a lot of research already, so we did some wonderful history reprints.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52The non-fiction books Ursula was doing were trailblazing.
0:28:52 > 0:28:56I always remember the one about Asian women in Britain, because
0:28:56 > 0:29:00I'd had that room in Whitechapel and I had seen these,
0:29:00 > 0:29:04you know, the Bangladeshi women in their sweatshops and been
0:29:04 > 0:29:08very concerned by them, and this amazing woman called Amrit Wilson
0:29:08 > 0:29:10wrote this book called Finding A Voice.
0:29:10 > 0:29:15It caused a sensation and the author got death threats from men in
0:29:15 > 0:29:17her community.
0:29:18 > 0:29:21It was really sort of breaking open what was, you know,
0:29:21 > 0:29:23what was behind closed doors.
0:29:30 > 0:29:32Right at that moment, in the early '80s,
0:29:32 > 0:29:37was when the backlash against various liberal ideas
0:29:37 > 0:29:39started to kick in.
0:29:39 > 0:29:43And people were saying that they wanted to get women back into
0:29:43 > 0:29:47their homes and into a traditional, quote, lifestyle.
0:29:55 > 0:29:59One should really think of one's family and one's children first,
0:29:59 > 0:30:02one's husband and children. And this seems to be a very...
0:30:04 > 0:30:06.."uncontemporary" view to hold.
0:30:07 > 0:30:10"The spectacles women used to make of themselves,
0:30:10 > 0:30:13"oiling themselves like roast meat on a spit, and bare backs and
0:30:13 > 0:30:18"shoulders, on the streets, in public, and legs, not even stockings on them.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22"No wonder those things used to happen.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25"Things, the word she used when whatever it stood for was too
0:30:25 > 0:30:29"distasteful or filthy or horrible to pass her lips."
0:30:29 > 0:30:33Well, I was reading, in my 20s, Lady Oracle, The Edible Woman
0:30:33 > 0:30:36and then Cat's Eye, and The Handmaid's Tale in particular,
0:30:36 > 0:30:38which I remember for me and my group of friends,
0:30:38 > 0:30:41my women friends, and my men friends, actually, was this
0:30:41 > 0:30:44absolutely kind of electrifying, sort of horrible dystopia.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48People were saying, "Well, isn't this based on Muslims etc?"
0:30:48 > 0:30:53And I would say, "Cast your view backwards just a bit
0:30:53 > 0:30:56"and you will find the situation in which women couldn't own property
0:30:56 > 0:31:00"if they were married, they didn't get the kids if there was divorce.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03"There was a great debate about whether they should be
0:31:03 > 0:31:08"allowed higher education because it might shrivel up their wombs.
0:31:08 > 0:31:13"So all of this was going on right here, not so long ago."
0:31:16 > 0:31:20One of the things I think you have to do when you're Virago is
0:31:20 > 0:31:23be alive to whatever the political issues of the time are.
0:31:23 > 0:31:28So we have to be a mirror to the world.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31- Marie. I'm such a huge fan.- Thank you.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36I was coming out as a young lesbian in the '80s.
0:31:36 > 0:31:40And so entering that world of gay activism, really,
0:31:40 > 0:31:44joining groups, discovering the power of sort of community
0:31:44 > 0:31:46politics and grassroot politics.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49When I think of the '80s, I think of it as, that was its strength, really.
0:31:49 > 0:31:51It was a lot of grassroots work.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56The two sort of movements that were working very strongly in the
0:31:56 > 0:31:59'70s and the '80s were the peace movement and the
0:31:59 > 0:32:01women's movement, and in fact, things like Greenham Common,
0:32:01 > 0:32:03we did books about Greenham Common.
0:32:03 > 0:32:07And we went off to Greenham Common, a lot of us, and circled the base.
0:32:07 > 0:32:09Very exciting.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15Over Our Dead Bodies was a book of essays put together by
0:32:15 > 0:32:17Dorothy Thompson.
0:32:17 > 0:32:19Over Our Dead Bodies: Women Against The Bomb.
0:32:19 > 0:32:24What we decided to do, which was quite exciting, was take...
0:32:24 > 0:32:26Is to hire Westminster Hall.
0:32:27 > 0:32:32And to have a huge meeting to celebrate the publication of
0:32:32 > 0:32:34the book. And I can't imagine that we did do it,
0:32:34 > 0:32:38- but I think we got 2,000 people there.- We were very ambitious.
0:32:38 > 0:32:40I mean, I remain ambitious for our books, too,
0:32:40 > 0:32:44but we felt so much part of the movements in the world,
0:32:44 > 0:32:48and so naturally... It felt totally natural that we would have
0:32:48 > 0:32:50a rally to publish this book.
0:32:50 > 0:32:53When I think about that, I think, "Really?"
0:32:56 > 0:32:58It's like Kleenex, I can't imagine how people survived
0:32:58 > 0:33:00without Kleenex before it was invented.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03I can't imagine how I survived without Virago,
0:33:03 > 0:33:05before it was invented.
0:33:05 > 0:33:10When I got there, the turnover was under £300,000,
0:33:10 > 0:33:14and three years later when I left, it was just about £1 million.
0:33:18 > 0:33:22Carmen was moving to Chatto, she had accepted the job as
0:33:22 > 0:33:26managing director and she wanted to bring Virago with her.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29The company became worth quite a lot of money.
0:33:29 > 0:33:33So it was a good time to sell it.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36I said I wouldn't leave without Virago, and so Virago came with me,
0:33:36 > 0:33:39but it did cause a ferocious row with Ursula.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44Harriet and I didn't want to become part of Chatto.
0:33:46 > 0:33:50Because we felt it was an independent company...
0:33:50 > 0:33:52and that it should stay that way.
0:33:58 > 0:34:05A small publisher was becoming a pretty impossible financial thing.
0:34:05 > 0:34:07The whole of publishing was changing.
0:34:07 > 0:34:11There was no way a small publishing house could do the
0:34:11 > 0:34:16sales distribution into the digital age, which was only a dream then.
0:34:16 > 0:34:20To survive, Virago had to join a bigger group.
0:34:20 > 0:34:22That was a difficult year.
0:34:22 > 0:34:26We had lots of difficult battles.
0:34:27 > 0:34:29Certainly, we recreated the convent.
0:34:29 > 0:34:32What, you felt you recreated the convent at Virago?
0:34:32 > 0:34:36When I... By the time... 1982, I felt I had, yeah.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38Disapproval.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41Mortal sins.
0:34:41 > 0:34:42Venial sins.
0:34:42 > 0:34:46It was poignant because there was an ending
0:34:46 > 0:34:47and there was a new beginning.
0:34:47 > 0:34:51We did keep Virago a separate entity and that was important.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55Carmen continued on the board,
0:34:55 > 0:34:59and she continued working on the Virago Modern Classics,
0:34:59 > 0:35:01so I continued working with her.
0:35:01 > 0:35:03MUSIC: I've Seen That Face Before by Grace Jones
0:35:03 > 0:35:05# Sans regret, sans melo
0:35:05 > 0:35:08# La porte est claquee
0:35:08 > 0:35:10# Joel est barre... #
0:35:10 > 0:35:13Is the common thread in people who have managed to do something
0:35:13 > 0:35:15whether it's artistic or creative,
0:35:15 > 0:35:19force of personality to push something through? Carmen?
0:35:19 > 0:35:21I just don't know. I think I...
0:35:21 > 0:35:25As I get older, I do think perhaps I do have a strong personality.
0:35:25 > 0:35:28So it may be that. But living with it is beginning to exhaust me.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31- LAUGHTER - So, that may be right.
0:35:31 > 0:35:33But I don't think when you're doing something
0:35:33 > 0:35:36you think that you're successful or that you have a strong personality
0:35:36 > 0:35:37or anything, you just get on with it.
0:35:37 > 0:35:42When we all began, we were secretaries or publicity girls.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45By the '80s or '90s we were all in very big jobs.
0:35:47 > 0:35:49Ladies, gentlemen, young men, young women,
0:35:49 > 0:35:50I encourage you...
0:35:51 > 0:35:54..with all my heart...
0:35:54 > 0:35:56to strive...
0:35:56 > 0:36:00to be bigger, stronger, healthier.
0:36:01 > 0:36:03Dare.
0:36:03 > 0:36:04Dare.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07Dare. Thank you.
0:36:07 > 0:36:08APPLAUSE
0:36:09 > 0:36:12Ursula Owen heard about Maya Angelou
0:36:12 > 0:36:15and heard about I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings,
0:36:15 > 0:36:18which had been published in America, 1969.
0:36:22 > 0:36:26MAYA ANGELOU: "Wouldn't they be surprised when one day
0:36:26 > 0:36:29"I woke out of my black ugly dream
0:36:29 > 0:36:33"and my real hair, which was long and blonde,
0:36:33 > 0:36:35"would take the place of the kinky mass
0:36:35 > 0:36:38"that Momma wouldn't let me straighten?"
0:36:40 > 0:36:41According to Maya,
0:36:41 > 0:36:44it was sent to a lot of publishing houses in the UK
0:36:44 > 0:36:47and they all said, "No, nobody in the UK is going to be interested
0:36:47 > 0:36:51"in a young black woman growing up in the South, so, no."
0:36:53 > 0:36:56"Then they would understand why I had never picked up
0:36:56 > 0:36:58"a Southern accent,
0:36:58 > 0:37:00"or spoke the common slang,
0:37:00 > 0:37:05"and why I had to be forced to eat pigs' tails and snouts.
0:37:05 > 0:37:07"Because I was really white.
0:37:07 > 0:37:11"And because a cruel fairy stepmother,
0:37:11 > 0:37:15"who was understandably jealous of my beauty,
0:37:15 > 0:37:19"had turned me into a too-big Negro girl
0:37:19 > 0:37:23"with nappy black hair, broad feet
0:37:23 > 0:37:28"and a space between her teeth that would hold a number-two pencil."
0:37:31 > 0:37:32I think Maya brought us poetry,
0:37:32 > 0:37:36although we didn't realise that was what was happening to us,
0:37:36 > 0:37:38because it wasn't in verse.
0:37:39 > 0:37:43Its unputdownable quality
0:37:43 > 0:37:46is the fact that you are constantly
0:37:46 > 0:37:49led straight into another cadence in that book.
0:37:53 > 0:37:56In 1984, Ursula bought it
0:37:56 > 0:37:58and Maya Angelou came over
0:37:58 > 0:38:01and it was amazing, it was utterly amazing.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04I remember, because she was six foot four or five,
0:38:04 > 0:38:08and she came into our quite small offices and she danced!
0:38:11 > 0:38:15We printed 6,000 copies. They were gone in a fortnight.
0:38:15 > 0:38:18We printed 6,000 more and they were gone in another fortnight.
0:38:18 > 0:38:22And we suddenly realised we had this huge bestseller on our hands.
0:38:26 > 0:38:29Maya made them. I mean, they turned some shekels after that.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43I remember very clearly you coming to Virago to be an intern
0:38:43 > 0:38:45but I can't remember exactly when it was, what year.
0:38:45 > 0:38:49So, it would have been 1985 and 1986 when I was...
0:38:49 > 0:38:50a Rhodes Scholar here in Oxford
0:38:50 > 0:38:53and you let me have an internship...
0:38:53 > 0:38:55We had a series of Rhodes Scholars.
0:38:55 > 0:38:57We had quite a few of them, but I do remember
0:38:57 > 0:38:59this young, very beautiful, woman.
0:38:59 > 0:39:02Naomi certainly stood out.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04She kept wanting to have a conversation about beauty,
0:39:04 > 0:39:06you know, the tyranny of beauty and things like that.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09And we all thought, "OK, whatever." You know.
0:39:09 > 0:39:11And then off she went and wrote The Beauty Myth.
0:39:11 > 0:39:13Nice when you're crouching down there.
0:39:13 > 0:39:16- Yes, gosh, very aggressive. - CAMERA CLICKS
0:39:16 > 0:39:17And there. Yes.
0:39:17 > 0:39:23- NAOMI WOLF:- There was a lot of that kind of constant...demeaning sexism.
0:39:23 > 0:39:27The newspapers were very misogynistic.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30There was no sexual harassment law protecting them,
0:39:30 > 0:39:33so their experiences at work were awful.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36Um, and every week you would read an essay
0:39:36 > 0:39:40in a British newspaper declaring that feminism was dead.
0:39:40 > 0:39:45And really, when you think about it, if you've got looks,
0:39:45 > 0:39:48I don't think there's anything silly in using them.
0:39:50 > 0:39:53I was writing about anorexia and body image,
0:39:53 > 0:39:55and images of beauty, which were
0:39:55 > 0:39:58kind of the problem that had no name for my generation of women,
0:39:58 > 0:40:00of my demographic.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10Success. Publicity tour around the world.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12I mean, I was very fortunate.
0:40:12 > 0:40:14And I'd been very well-prepared.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16You know, and Virago was a big part of that.
0:40:16 > 0:40:19I was immediately cast in the role of, you know,
0:40:19 > 0:40:21baby feminist spokeswoman.
0:40:21 > 0:40:23You did something that the cultural gatekeepers said
0:40:23 > 0:40:25wasn't possible at the time.
0:40:25 > 0:40:30I remember the buzzword in magazines and periodicals in the '80s
0:40:30 > 0:40:32is "feminism is dead, no-one's interested."
0:40:32 > 0:40:34And you were creating a business model
0:40:34 > 0:40:37showing that there was a market for these ideas.
0:40:37 > 0:40:41And that, in fact, is really important in terms of publishing
0:40:41 > 0:40:44cos it did tell other publishers that there was an appetite there
0:40:44 > 0:40:47- that was not being satisfied. - Well, exactly.
0:40:55 > 0:40:58Once we were part of a bigger group, we lost our profitability,
0:40:58 > 0:41:01and of course one of the things that Carmen always said
0:41:01 > 0:41:02is that you have to be profitable,
0:41:02 > 0:41:05which is something I believe in very much.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07MUSIC: Avalon by Roxy Music
0:41:07 > 0:41:10# Now the party's over... #
0:41:11 > 0:41:13Chatto started to go bankrupt.
0:41:13 > 0:41:16If you didn't have your own paperback imprint, it was hopeless.
0:41:16 > 0:41:19That's how much publishing was changing.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22I think it became obvious that the companies were quite badly run
0:41:22 > 0:41:25by the men who ran them and then it became obvious that
0:41:25 > 0:41:28all the companies were losing money, except for Virago.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31So that was a bit ironic.
0:41:31 > 0:41:33If you look at the history of publishing,
0:41:33 > 0:41:35all publishing was just being, you know,
0:41:35 > 0:41:37munched up by bigger organisations.
0:41:43 > 0:41:47We said, "We still want to buy ourselves out,"
0:41:47 > 0:41:49and there was a big battle,
0:41:49 > 0:41:54which we won by saying we'd all leave.
0:41:54 > 0:41:55It was interesting.
0:41:55 > 0:41:57There was a great deal of disaffection
0:41:57 > 0:41:58and it was basically like,
0:41:58 > 0:42:02"Sod this, let's leave these men and let's go back out on our own."
0:42:02 > 0:42:04So we...we did the buyout.
0:42:04 > 0:42:07We all had to put some money in.
0:42:07 > 0:42:11It was something like £10,000 or something each.
0:42:11 > 0:42:13- Were you all in agreement that this was the right thing to do?- Yes.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16We were. I mean, I didn't want to do it for my life,
0:42:16 > 0:42:19but I was in agreement that we should do it.
0:42:20 > 0:42:22I had Daniel, and it was
0:42:22 > 0:42:26the last thing I wanted in my life.
0:42:26 > 0:42:31I just... I knew that it was going to be all-consuming, and it was.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34And...you know, I had to write the business plan with Ursula,
0:42:34 > 0:42:37go to tea with the venture capitalists and the accountants
0:42:37 > 0:42:39and all the rest of it,
0:42:39 > 0:42:41you know, outside of ordinary working hours.
0:42:41 > 0:42:43# Avalon... #
0:42:43 > 0:42:45I was brought up like that, that you, you know,
0:42:45 > 0:42:48you do not sacrifice your work.
0:42:48 > 0:42:50# Avalon... #
0:42:54 > 0:42:55It was hard.
0:42:55 > 0:42:58And to be frank, in a different circumstance
0:42:58 > 0:43:00I think I would have had another child, but, you know,
0:43:00 > 0:43:02I couldn't manage the balance.
0:43:02 > 0:43:04# Avalon... #
0:43:06 > 0:43:10Virago bought itself out and I helped with that as well.
0:43:10 > 0:43:13So they became an independent company again.
0:43:13 > 0:43:18It was a very bonding time. We were all working very much together.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20It was... It was great.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29In the early days of feminism, women really wanted to be educated,
0:43:29 > 0:43:31so we could publish a lot of women's history.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34Everybody was really hungry to know, "who were these women before,
0:43:34 > 0:43:37"who has got forgotten, what did they do, what were their names?"
0:43:37 > 0:43:40All sorts of things. And that kind of went away slightly in the '90s.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45There was a feeling, I think, that it had been done -
0:43:45 > 0:43:46what's your problem?
0:43:46 > 0:43:50And there was all sorts of feelings that feminism has gone too far,
0:43:50 > 0:43:53or, you know, feminism has actually wrecked relationships
0:43:53 > 0:43:54between men and women.
0:43:54 > 0:43:59There was a kind of a backlash, I think, about the gains of feminism.
0:43:59 > 0:44:02Lad mags came along.
0:44:02 > 0:44:04It was a very leering time.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09It was a hard time, because you had to take all of this
0:44:09 > 0:44:12in a kind of cheery spirit. You know, you had to sort of go,
0:44:12 > 0:44:15"Oh, ho-ho - Loaded."
0:44:15 > 0:44:19Feminism wasn't cool any more. You know, it wasn't radical.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22It had become quite academic and it was talking to itself quite a lot.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25I'd just say that I'm one of the lads. Just carry on.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28I give as good as I get. I don't let them categorise me like that.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31There was a younger generation of women who grew up thinking
0:44:31 > 0:44:34there were no barriers to their success,
0:44:34 > 0:44:35that their gender brought them.
0:44:35 > 0:44:39And they could drink like the men and swear like the men
0:44:39 > 0:44:40and take their clothes off, you know.
0:44:40 > 0:44:44And I think that had a profound effect on feminism.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49There were so many of us who felt, "Actually, it's not over,
0:44:49 > 0:44:50"The language is still sexist,
0:44:50 > 0:44:53"women are still not been paid the right amount of money."
0:44:53 > 0:44:56I was working on a show called The Late Show on BBC Two,
0:44:56 > 0:45:00and we covered a shortlist for one of the Booker years.
0:45:00 > 0:45:02And to our astonishment,
0:45:02 > 0:45:05I think there were no women on the list that year.
0:45:05 > 0:45:09And in particular, there was not Angela Carter,
0:45:09 > 0:45:11who had published a book -
0:45:11 > 0:45:14I think it was Wise Children - that many of us had read and loved.
0:45:14 > 0:45:17And I think the sort of sense of, "Oh, my God,
0:45:17 > 0:45:21"how far have we not come that this could still be true?"
0:45:33 > 0:45:35It was, of course, a joke at the time.
0:45:35 > 0:45:38"If size matters, we'll have a bigger prize pot
0:45:38 > 0:45:39"than the Booker will."
0:45:41 > 0:45:44NEWS BROADCAST: A price-cutting war is looming in the book world
0:45:44 > 0:45:47after the Dillons chain of booksellers
0:45:47 > 0:45:51put many of its new titles on sale today at a 25% discount.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53Tonight several publishers are taking out injunctions
0:45:53 > 0:45:55to stop Dillons discounting.
0:45:55 > 0:45:59'There was an industry wobble and books were harder to sell.'
0:45:59 > 0:46:02- NEWS BROADCAST:- Dillons said their discounted books were selling
0:46:02 > 0:46:03at five times the normal rate.
0:46:03 > 0:46:05There were more of them,
0:46:05 > 0:46:07so you had to fight harder for your share in the market.
0:46:07 > 0:46:11You know, the kind of girl power, ladette brand of feminism
0:46:11 > 0:46:15didn't sit very squarely with reading books, particularly.
0:46:16 > 0:46:20The '90s was hard, and Virago...struggled.
0:46:23 > 0:46:25By the time we got to '95,
0:46:25 > 0:46:29we definitely were not going to be able to last all by ourselves.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34I said that we were going to sell the company
0:46:34 > 0:46:37and so we sold the company, and various people wanted to buy.
0:46:37 > 0:46:40The choice was between Bloomsbury and Little, Brown.
0:46:40 > 0:46:43- You know about that? - I've come across it.
0:46:45 > 0:46:49Must have been a very difficult decision for everyone to make.
0:46:49 > 0:46:50SHE SIGHS
0:46:50 > 0:46:52Absolutely.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54So we had this great...
0:46:54 > 0:46:58terrible...moment when we all declared...
0:46:58 > 0:47:01But I didn't have a vote by then. I'd sold my shares.
0:47:01 > 0:47:06Listen, one day I'll write a play about it.
0:47:10 > 0:47:13The split went - Ursula and Harriet and Alexandra,
0:47:13 > 0:47:15and Lennie and me.
0:47:15 > 0:47:18Ursula and I both felt it should go to Bloomsbury.
0:47:18 > 0:47:22And I had to choose, and I chose Little, Brown.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25I had a background in small publishing myself.
0:47:25 > 0:47:29And the smaller the cheese, the more ferocious the mice.
0:47:32 > 0:47:35I was very, very against corporate publishing.
0:47:35 > 0:47:38And I felt it was wrong for Virago.
0:47:38 > 0:47:40I wanted to get...
0:47:41 > 0:47:44..into a company where Lennie could run it.
0:47:44 > 0:47:48It was a bit of a... a bit of a mess.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53After that...that meeting, I remember seeing Tim Waterstone,
0:47:53 > 0:47:57who was a non-exec on the Virago board and he said,
0:47:57 > 0:48:00"I've been on many boards, and I am on many boards,
0:48:00 > 0:48:03"and I've never seen people behave as badly as you all did."
0:48:03 > 0:48:05And I looked at him and I said,
0:48:05 > 0:48:08"But what you have to understand is we're a family."
0:48:09 > 0:48:13'I understand that they did a television programme some years ago
0:48:13 > 0:48:16'in which they displayed infighting.'
0:48:16 > 0:48:19Frankly, darling, you're too fucking boring.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22They loved the idea of a catfight, or things going wrong.
0:48:22 > 0:48:27Probably a feeling that..."Maybe women can't really do it."
0:48:27 > 0:48:28You know.
0:48:28 > 0:48:31Everything else, all emotions, get in the way and things like that.
0:48:31 > 0:48:35The personal is the political. That's all we have to remember.
0:48:38 > 0:48:41- Big Women was a sort of parody. - Was it?- Yeah.
0:48:41 > 0:48:44'It's very forgettable, isn't it? I've forgotten it completely.
0:48:44 > 0:48:46'I don't know that that's that forgettable.'
0:48:46 > 0:48:49Some dancing happens and you all take your tops off.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51INTERVIEWER LAUGHS
0:48:51 > 0:48:52Medusa.
0:48:52 > 0:48:57One look and she turns men's hearts to stone.
0:48:57 > 0:48:58Medusa!
0:48:58 > 0:49:03- I wouldn't have dreamt of exposing my breasts to anyone...- I'm sure.
0:49:03 > 0:49:04..in public.
0:49:04 > 0:49:05THEY LAUGH
0:49:05 > 0:49:09We decided to throw a big party and we made carrier bags saying,
0:49:09 > 0:49:13"You can't put a big woman down." And we just had a good time with it.
0:49:22 > 0:49:25What they gained from the sale was financial security,
0:49:25 > 0:49:26greater marketing clout,
0:49:26 > 0:49:29and if you look at the remainder of the feminist publishing houses
0:49:29 > 0:49:30that were set up in the '70s,
0:49:30 > 0:49:32none of them were in business by that time.
0:49:32 > 0:49:36Virago remains the only kind of... explicitly feminist publisher
0:49:36 > 0:49:37in the industry.
0:49:44 > 0:49:47When we first came to Little, Brown,
0:49:47 > 0:49:52there was a lot of conversation about how to sort of pep up Virago,
0:49:52 > 0:49:56how to kind of give it a new lease of life.
0:49:56 > 0:50:00We started a new list called Virago V.
0:50:00 > 0:50:03There was a sort of sense that we had to fly in the face of
0:50:03 > 0:50:07political correctness, being worthy, all those kinds of things.
0:50:07 > 0:50:11So Virago V was supposed to be... provocative.
0:50:14 > 0:50:16Nobody else would have me, basically.
0:50:16 > 0:50:17Nobody else would publish it.
0:50:17 > 0:50:20But I have to say, I was absolutely delighted.
0:50:22 > 0:50:25"It was a scent which as a girl I loved uncritically.
0:50:25 > 0:50:28"Later I heard it described, by theatre managers and artistes,
0:50:28 > 0:50:30"as the smell of laughter,
0:50:30 > 0:50:33"the very odour of applause.
0:50:33 > 0:50:37"Later still, I came to know it as the essence, not of pleasure,
0:50:37 > 0:50:38"but of grief."
0:50:41 > 0:50:44Sarah was not the first to introduce lesbian protagonists.
0:50:44 > 0:50:47Jeanette Winterson had, obviously, among others,
0:50:47 > 0:50:51had done, you know, her amazing book, Oranges Are Not The Only Fruit.
0:50:51 > 0:50:53And it was like lesbian... A bit like in the old sense,
0:50:53 > 0:50:55Queen Victoria's idea that it didn't really exist.
0:50:55 > 0:50:57You know, it was kind of very off-centre.
0:50:57 > 0:51:00And what someone like Sarah did is kind of, basically,
0:51:00 > 0:51:02she just makes lesbianism ordinary.
0:51:05 > 0:51:07Virago Vs - books with bite.
0:51:15 > 0:51:19In the '90s, I think people did feel you couldn't have conversations,
0:51:19 > 0:51:23polemics certainly, and even... women's history, I felt,
0:51:23 > 0:51:26you couldn't just do in the same way as you had
0:51:26 > 0:51:27in the early days of Virago.
0:51:27 > 0:51:31And memoir seemed to be a new way forward.
0:51:31 > 0:51:34And so I remember one of the books I'm extremely proud of publishing
0:51:34 > 0:51:37is called Desert Flower by Waris Dirie.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40She's a model from Somalia,
0:51:40 > 0:51:45who suddenly revealed to a women's magazine in America
0:51:45 > 0:51:48that she had suffered what was then called female circumcision,
0:51:48 > 0:51:51which is now called female genital mutilation.
0:51:51 > 0:51:53And nobody was talking about that.
0:51:59 > 0:52:03Because it's got integrity, Virago is successful.
0:52:03 > 0:52:06If it started saying, "Oh, well, we can have a little sub-imprint
0:52:06 > 0:52:09"that does boy-meets-girl romances,"
0:52:09 > 0:52:12I think everyone would think that Virago is selling out,
0:52:12 > 0:52:14and it would be much less successful.
0:52:14 > 0:52:17So there is absolutely no impetus from me or from anyone else
0:52:17 > 0:52:21for Virago to do anything other than stick to its guns.
0:52:28 > 0:52:31I remember when we published Natasha Walter's book,
0:52:31 > 0:52:33Living Dolls: The Return Of Sexism,
0:52:33 > 0:52:35which was picking up on some of this stuff
0:52:35 > 0:52:37that was feeling like, "Why hasn't the world changed?
0:52:37 > 0:52:39"Why do we still have so... Still the problems?
0:52:39 > 0:52:41"Why are girls still told that
0:52:41 > 0:52:44"their bodies are their passport to success?"
0:52:44 > 0:52:48We were just ready to be jumped upon, and we got one bad review.
0:52:48 > 0:52:50Everything else was just,
0:52:50 > 0:52:53"Yes! Thankfully, someone is talking about this!"
0:52:56 > 0:52:58A lot of books suddenly sprang up.
0:52:58 > 0:53:00Caitlin Moran's, How To Be A Woman.
0:53:00 > 0:53:02Laura Bates - Everyday Sexism.
0:53:02 > 0:53:04Suddenly the conversation was alive again,
0:53:04 > 0:53:07especially for young women.
0:53:07 > 0:53:10The book is another way to talk about feminism.
0:53:10 > 0:53:12In it, everyone is talking about different versions,
0:53:12 > 0:53:15it's all personal stories. It's very accessible...
0:53:18 > 0:53:21I Call Myself A Feminist is picking up on sort of the sense of
0:53:21 > 0:53:26young women now kind of arguing about feminism. "Am I a feminist?
0:53:26 > 0:53:28"Can I be this but not have that name?"
0:53:28 > 0:53:30Or, you know, "I do call myself a feminist."
0:53:30 > 0:53:32It's such an interesting conversation going on
0:53:32 > 0:53:34with young women under 30, I think.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37"I call myself a feminist with my body.
0:53:37 > 0:53:39"So much communication is non-verbal.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42"We proclaim ourselves confident as we power down the street
0:53:42 > 0:53:44"with a straight back, unafraid to be visible.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47"We try to hide our vulnerability when we are uncomfortable, when..."
0:53:47 > 0:53:51'I feel more optimistic now than I have ever felt,
0:53:51 > 0:53:53'possibly back to sort of how I felt when I first found feminism
0:53:53 > 0:53:56'in the end of the '70s.
0:53:56 > 0:53:58'Because I feel these young women,
0:53:58 > 0:54:02'they have a strong sense of themselves, it seems to me.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04'They're also not frightened.'
0:54:05 > 0:54:09"Growing up... Well, I don't remember becoming a woman,
0:54:09 > 0:54:12"but I do remember when I stopped being a girl.
0:54:12 > 0:54:14"My memory is blurred from the Malibu,
0:54:14 > 0:54:18"but I remember them holding me up because I couldn't stand.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21"One under either arm and a few others in the background.
0:54:21 > 0:54:25"One laughing, one keeping lookout.
0:54:25 > 0:54:29"The smell of clean, fresh blood that I woke up to at 5am.
0:54:31 > 0:54:35"I started to drink till I blacked out, to make it all less difficult.
0:54:37 > 0:54:41"By my 20s, I'd learned that alcohol is less difficult than family.
0:54:42 > 0:54:46"Feminism always has been and is still the only place
0:54:46 > 0:54:49"I feel that it's OK that I'm difficult."
0:55:03 > 0:55:06Things go and come, they go and come.
0:55:06 > 0:55:08So the first wave got the vote.
0:55:08 > 0:55:10Second wave, end of '60s,
0:55:10 > 0:55:12out of the housewife mould.
0:55:12 > 0:55:17This wave, if you ask young women, it's about violence.
0:55:17 > 0:55:19Violence, rape and death.
0:55:24 > 0:55:27They're wonderful.
0:55:27 > 0:55:29I'll see if I can get these posters into shape
0:55:29 > 0:55:31for the British Library.
0:55:31 > 0:55:36There's the most wonderful Elizabeth Taylor.
0:55:36 > 0:55:37Oh!
0:55:37 > 0:55:38Christina Stead,
0:55:38 > 0:55:41the most disagreeable of all the writers I ever published.
0:55:41 > 0:55:43Why have I got two of her?
0:55:43 > 0:55:45But she was a genius.
0:55:45 > 0:55:49Tell me why you've decided to give your Virago collection
0:55:49 > 0:55:50to the British Library?
0:55:50 > 0:55:55Is this about putting everything to rest a little bit?
0:55:55 > 0:55:58I don't think so. I'm not a very restful person.
0:55:58 > 0:56:02Um, I just want people to know how it was.
0:56:02 > 0:56:04And also, of course, I've been ill.
0:56:04 > 0:56:07And once you're ill, you do all these things.
0:56:07 > 0:56:09Oh, she was wonderful, Storm Jameson.
0:56:09 > 0:56:13'Once I had lung cancer, I set about... You know, I made a will.'
0:56:13 > 0:56:15Stevie Smith! My favourite.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17'I did a power of attorney
0:56:17 > 0:56:20'so that they turn off the machine INSTANTLY.
0:56:21 > 0:56:25'And I got my archive together and it's gone to the British Library.'
0:56:27 > 0:56:31Obviously, there are a lot more women being published these days.
0:56:31 > 0:56:34Do you feel that Virago still has a place?
0:56:34 > 0:56:38I think Virago is now an august old lady.
0:56:40 > 0:56:43And she's still functioning extremely well,
0:56:43 > 0:56:45with a lot of things to say.
0:56:46 > 0:56:50And why would you ever want to kill off an august old lady?
0:56:55 > 0:56:58When I look back on it now and I think of the disputes we had
0:56:58 > 0:57:03and the stress there was, it's all very understandable,
0:57:03 > 0:57:05because it was such a difficult thing to do.
0:57:05 > 0:57:08These are something I've forgotten. I'm so sorry.
0:57:08 > 0:57:09They were under the bed.
0:57:09 > 0:57:12It's brilliant to get the final pieces of the Carmen Callil archive.
0:57:12 > 0:57:14Do you feel it's an important part
0:57:14 > 0:57:16of our national heritage?
0:57:16 > 0:57:19I think that's a bit boastful.
0:57:19 > 0:57:23I think it's part of women's history. And when...
0:57:23 > 0:57:26And I think women's history is very, very important.
0:57:26 > 0:57:29More important than kings and queens.
0:57:29 > 0:57:30So, yes, I suppose I do, really.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32But it's not just about me, you know,
0:57:32 > 0:57:35it was a whole body of women all over the country.
0:57:35 > 0:57:38They achieved an enormous amount for the next generation.
0:57:40 > 0:57:43- That's very charming. - I can't wait to see the apple.
0:57:43 > 0:57:45- The apple on the spine.- Yes.
0:57:47 > 0:57:51We came out of a place where people were silenced.
0:57:51 > 0:57:55And that isn't quite true any more in the same way.
0:57:57 > 0:57:59"How to do a balance sheet."
0:57:59 > 0:58:02"Fixed assets, and my loan, which depreciates."
0:58:02 > 0:58:04SHE LAUGHS
0:58:04 > 0:58:06"Bills for one month."
0:58:06 > 0:58:09Oh! The agony of it all.
0:58:11 > 0:58:14Feminism to me is incredibly simple.
0:58:14 > 0:58:18It's a humanitarian approach to the world, frankly.
0:58:18 > 0:58:21"To find another 10,000." I love this.
0:58:21 > 0:58:25Yes. "Jason's advice - get more money."
0:58:25 > 0:58:26My belief is
0:58:26 > 0:58:32that Virago was one of the most significant publishing
0:58:32 > 0:58:36and cultural events since the Second World War.
0:58:45 > 0:58:47People do thank me a lot.
0:58:47 > 0:58:49They say, "Thank you so much for Virago," you know.
0:58:49 > 0:58:53And of course, they really are thanking the writers,
0:58:53 > 0:58:55who were there all the time. That's the point.
0:58:59 > 0:59:02..Though there WAS the odd bit of fighting.
0:59:02 > 0:59:06They took on the task of - women's writing!
0:59:06 > 0:59:09(A notion THEN some set great store on
0:59:09 > 0:59:14(was that women's writing was an oxymoron.)
0:59:14 > 0:59:17But though doubters pointed and quipped and jeered,
0:59:17 > 0:59:20they rolled up their sleeves and persevered.