Melvyn Bragg on TV: The Box That Changed the World

0:00:02 > 0:00:07This programme contains some strong language

0:00:07 > 0:00:10Hello from the British Academy of Film and Television Arts

0:00:10 > 0:00:13here in London, where, over the next two hours,

0:00:13 > 0:00:15we're going to be looking at some of the best

0:00:15 > 0:00:18of this country's television from the last 60 or so years,

0:00:18 > 0:00:21and we'll try to make sense of the momentous impact

0:00:21 > 0:00:25that television has had on the lives of just about every one of us.

0:00:25 > 0:00:28We're joined by some of the people responsible for the programmes

0:00:28 > 0:00:32which have moved us, made us laugh, made us angry and got us interested,

0:00:32 > 0:00:36and we'll be finding out whether they agree on the scale and spread

0:00:36 > 0:00:37of the influence of television

0:00:37 > 0:00:41and whether they think that we're now at a pivotal moment of change.

0:00:41 > 0:00:45We're taking Britain as our canvas, because we were in at the beginning

0:00:45 > 0:00:48and we can still be up there with the best in the world.

0:00:48 > 0:00:52Here's a taster of what has so enlarged our views of the world

0:00:52 > 0:00:56because of that box in the corner, or that flat screen on the wall.

0:01:00 > 0:01:02# Bring me sunshine... #

0:01:02 > 0:01:05Television. I think that nothing has had so great an impact

0:01:05 > 0:01:08on our daily lives since the Industrial Revolution.

0:01:08 > 0:01:12- It brings extraordinary images... - # All the while... #

0:01:13 > 0:01:15..instant news and information.

0:01:15 > 0:01:19This is it. We're walking into Kabul city.

0:01:19 > 0:01:21Drama...

0:01:21 > 0:01:24- We are emperors of Rome, Andrew. - Entertainment...

0:01:24 > 0:01:29And a range of knowledge that our ancestors wouldn't have credited.

0:01:31 > 0:01:33And it's all happened in the past 75 years,

0:01:33 > 0:01:37and already we can barely imagine what life was like before it.

0:01:37 > 0:01:39But what a trip it's been.

0:01:39 > 0:01:42# Bring me love... #

0:01:44 > 0:01:47There was a time when the nearest you got to seeing

0:01:47 > 0:01:50world events was in the photographs in newspapers, or magazines,

0:01:50 > 0:01:52or you heard about them in radio -

0:01:52 > 0:01:55the John the Baptist of the communications industry -

0:01:55 > 0:01:57but television changed the game.

0:01:59 > 0:02:02It's almost impossible for anyone under the age of about 40

0:02:02 > 0:02:05to conceive of a world without live images of news

0:02:05 > 0:02:07unfolding from across the planet.

0:02:07 > 0:02:10- Come to West Berlin. - CHEERING

0:02:10 > 0:02:14The tidal wave arrived with ferocious speed and force.

0:02:14 > 0:02:19While TV has continued to chronicle key events for ourselves and future

0:02:19 > 0:02:23generations, it's also reminded us how we've become who we are.

0:02:23 > 0:02:26This is the battlefield of Hastings,

0:02:26 > 0:02:29and here, one kind of England was annihilated,

0:02:29 > 0:02:32and another kind of England was set up in its place.

0:02:32 > 0:02:35How we've learned about the world around us...

0:02:35 > 0:02:40Galileo stepped up the magnification of the telescope to 30 -

0:02:40 > 0:02:43and he turned it on the stars.

0:02:43 > 0:02:45Chartered our cultural achievements...

0:02:45 > 0:02:48All the great civilisations or civilising epochs

0:02:48 > 0:02:51have had a weight of energy behind them.

0:02:52 > 0:02:56..and ensured we can't forget our catastrophic mistakes.

0:03:08 > 0:03:10And if we think the barriers of class and privilege

0:03:10 > 0:03:12still exist in our society,

0:03:12 > 0:03:15consider a world before television, when the establishment

0:03:15 > 0:03:18was able to hide within the corridors of power,

0:03:18 > 0:03:20unreachable and unaccountable.

0:03:20 > 0:03:23Welcome to Senate House, at the University of Cambridge,

0:03:23 > 0:03:27for 90 minutes of question, answer and live debate.

0:03:27 > 0:03:30Television has allowed us to participate in democratic debate,

0:03:30 > 0:03:34and to have a voice where we had no voice before, and in the process,

0:03:34 > 0:03:37has even given politicians some of their best lines.

0:03:37 > 0:03:41I know he's very keen on summing up policy in six words.

0:03:41 > 0:03:45Well, how about this? You are the weakest link. Goodbye.

0:03:45 > 0:03:48LAUGHTER AND CHEERING

0:03:48 > 0:03:51And TV has been democratic in many other ways.

0:03:51 > 0:03:55Activities and experiences, once the privilege of the entitled

0:03:55 > 0:03:59ruling classes, have been made available to all of us.

0:04:01 > 0:04:06THEY SING: Nessun Dorma

0:04:09 > 0:04:11APPLAUSE

0:04:11 > 0:04:14As technology has developed, the scale and ambition of TV

0:04:14 > 0:04:17has enabled us to explore the fullness of the Earth.

0:04:21 > 0:04:23It's opened our eyes to the natural world

0:04:23 > 0:04:28in wholly unexpected and magical ways, charting the unseen,

0:04:28 > 0:04:31uncovering the unknown and alerting our attention to the problems

0:04:31 > 0:04:33we may face in the future.

0:04:33 > 0:04:38Sea ice will refreeze this winter, but it's getting weaker and thinner,

0:04:38 > 0:04:41which means that in summers to come it's more likely to break up

0:04:41 > 0:04:45and melt, a pattern that scientists say is accelerating.

0:04:45 > 0:04:49And of course, perhaps the greatest achievement of all,

0:04:49 > 0:04:52TV has taken us beyond our own planet.

0:04:52 > 0:04:55Eagle, we've got you now. It's looking good, over.

0:04:55 > 0:04:59That's one small step for man.

0:04:59 > 0:05:02One giant leap for mankind.

0:05:03 > 0:05:05Back here on Earth, television has shown us our bodies

0:05:05 > 0:05:07from birth to death...

0:05:07 > 0:05:11She's the most complicated thing on Earth, and during her lifetime,

0:05:11 > 0:05:14she'll achieve the most amazing things.

0:05:14 > 0:05:17It has recorded the way we live our lives...

0:05:17 > 0:05:22Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man.

0:05:22 > 0:05:24We have maps from the 1950s...

0:05:24 > 0:05:27..and allowed us to explore our individual histories.

0:05:27 > 0:05:29Charwoman.

0:05:37 > 0:05:38SHOUTING AND CHEERING

0:05:38 > 0:05:40And the winner of The Voice is...

0:05:40 > 0:05:44- It's discovered talent in all fields.- ..Leanne!

0:05:44 > 0:05:47CHEERING And inspired everyone to have a go.

0:05:47 > 0:05:51Even if, sometimes, it ends in tears.

0:05:51 > 0:05:53Ben, you're fired.

0:05:53 > 0:05:55Thank you very much for a wonderful opportunity, sir.

0:05:55 > 0:05:57OK. Off you go.

0:05:57 > 0:06:01And of course, it's provided great entertainment

0:06:01 > 0:06:03at the press of a button.

0:06:03 > 0:06:07I think we're on a winner here, Trig, all right?

0:06:07 > 0:06:11Play it nice and cool, son. Nice and cool, you know what I mean?

0:06:11 > 0:06:14- Sorry we're closing for lunch. - Never mind that, my lad,

0:06:14 > 0:06:16I wish to complain about this parrot,

0:06:16 > 0:06:19what I purchased not half an hour ago from this very boutique.

0:06:19 > 0:06:21Oh, yes, the Norwegian Blue. What's wrong with it?

0:06:21 > 0:06:22I'll tell you what's wrong with it.

0:06:22 > 0:06:24It's dead, that's what's wrong with it.

0:06:24 > 0:06:26All this and more from the comfort of our own homes,

0:06:26 > 0:06:29where staying in has become the new going out.

0:06:29 > 0:06:32We've been united, sharing experiences, accumulating memories,

0:06:32 > 0:06:36being comforted, being challenged, and with luck, being enlightened.

0:06:36 > 0:06:39That is the man the world has been waiting to see.

0:06:39 > 0:06:42No wonder it can be addictive.

0:06:43 > 0:06:45Nothing like it has ever happened before.

0:06:45 > 0:06:48And the scale of the television revolution

0:06:48 > 0:06:51on the make-up of our daily lives is impossible to overestimate.

0:06:51 > 0:06:55Who wants transparency when you can have magic?

0:06:57 > 0:07:01Who wants prose when you can have poetry?

0:07:01 > 0:07:02CHORAL SINGING

0:07:05 > 0:07:09There is no question but that television pushed frontiers out.

0:07:09 > 0:07:10When I think about my father,

0:07:10 > 0:07:14he only had a chance to hear Beethoven's Ninth Symphony once.

0:07:14 > 0:07:15You know?

0:07:17 > 0:07:19And, er...

0:07:19 > 0:07:23My grandfather had never moved outside of his own village.

0:07:23 > 0:07:28He had no idea Everest existed, or the centre of Africa.

0:07:29 > 0:07:34And the social people he mixed with were within that area.

0:07:34 > 0:07:36I know, because people of my own name,

0:07:36 > 0:07:40they're still living around there, and that was the world for them.

0:07:40 > 0:07:43And there's no question

0:07:43 > 0:07:46but that television burst all those frontiers.

0:07:46 > 0:07:50Both geographically, and socially,

0:07:50 > 0:07:53and scientifically, and every way you can think of.

0:07:53 > 0:07:58Suddenly, and perhaps, it's bewildering.

0:07:58 > 0:08:00Perhaps it goes too far.

0:08:00 > 0:08:05But it's certainly changed beyond recognition,

0:08:05 > 0:08:08the world as it was in the 19... Before the First World War.

0:08:09 > 0:08:12Later we'll cast a more critical eye over some of the many ways in which

0:08:12 > 0:08:15television has transformed our lives, but first of all,

0:08:15 > 0:08:19can we agree on the scale of the revolution we're talking about?

0:08:19 > 0:08:20I'm joined by Joan Bakewell,

0:08:20 > 0:08:22one of Britain's most respected broadcasters,

0:08:22 > 0:08:25who began on BBC2's Late Night Line-Up in the 1960s,

0:08:25 > 0:08:28and by historian and broadcaster David Olusoga,

0:08:28 > 0:08:32who recently won a Bafta for Britain's Forgotten Slave Owners.

0:08:32 > 0:08:34David, did we exaggerate in that introduction

0:08:34 > 0:08:38- the size, impact and place of television?- I don't think we did.

0:08:38 > 0:08:44I think we've taken a long time to allow this medium to settle in.

0:08:44 > 0:08:48It was described as a craze in the 1950s, along with rock and roll

0:08:48 > 0:08:51and dancing. The idea that it was a craze, that it was a phase,

0:08:51 > 0:08:54it was something we'd grow out of - no-one talks in those terms now.

0:08:54 > 0:08:57And I've said, rather fancifully,

0:08:57 > 0:09:00it could bear comparison with the Industrial Revolution,

0:09:00 > 0:09:02happening inside instead of outside,

0:09:02 > 0:09:07but can you think of it on a global scale of changing

0:09:07 > 0:09:10the way that the human species is leading its life and seeing itself

0:09:10 > 0:09:12lead this life and being human,

0:09:12 > 0:09:15- as big as that? - I think there's communal events,

0:09:15 > 0:09:18like the release of Nelson Mandela.

0:09:18 > 0:09:22Those events were only possible, they're part of everybody's memory,

0:09:22 > 0:09:25everyone remembers where they were when they happened, remembers

0:09:25 > 0:09:29watching the television screen... That's never been possible before.

0:09:29 > 0:09:32The example that historians tend to use is it took about a week

0:09:32 > 0:09:34for the news of Abraham Lincoln's assassination

0:09:34 > 0:09:36to reach everyone in America.

0:09:36 > 0:09:38When something big happens now,

0:09:38 > 0:09:40we all share in it, and we've got used to that idea,

0:09:40 > 0:09:43- but it's revolutionary. - And what effect does that have?

0:09:45 > 0:09:48Knowing it so instantly and so globally?

0:09:48 > 0:09:49I think we're still finding out.

0:09:49 > 0:09:52I think the idea of instant news is something we've come to fear,

0:09:52 > 0:09:54it's something we've got used to,

0:09:54 > 0:09:57what its impact will be in more troubled political times,

0:09:57 > 0:09:58we're still finding out.

0:09:58 > 0:10:0075 years is a pretty young invention.

0:10:00 > 0:10:02It's still in its infancy.

0:10:02 > 0:10:05I don't think we know the scale of the television revolution,

0:10:05 > 0:10:07cos we're still living in it.

0:10:07 > 0:10:09Joan, you came into television

0:10:09 > 0:10:11when it had really hit its stride in this country.

0:10:11 > 0:10:13Did you feel you were going into something new,

0:10:13 > 0:10:16never been in before, did you feel this was exciting?

0:10:16 > 0:10:20I thought it was the poor relation of radio and it might prosper.

0:10:20 > 0:10:22It was very popular,

0:10:22 > 0:10:24because it was the coronation that made it popular.

0:10:24 > 0:10:27But I... I spent my childhood in a world

0:10:27 > 0:10:30in which there were very few images of any kind.

0:10:30 > 0:10:32I mean, newspapers were very thin in the war,

0:10:32 > 0:10:37there were no photographs, there was picture post - so imagery,

0:10:37 > 0:10:39the actual pictures of the world,

0:10:39 > 0:10:41were very, very rare in my childhood.

0:10:41 > 0:10:46So the arrival of something that just threw at you so many images,

0:10:46 > 0:10:50even though they were very often ordinary, was an enormous shock.

0:10:50 > 0:10:51All we wanted to do was stare -

0:10:51 > 0:10:55stare and stare at what was put in front of us. Not only that,

0:10:55 > 0:11:00it became very collegiate in that the screens were very small -

0:11:00 > 0:11:03erm, there was only one per house, if the house had one.

0:11:03 > 0:11:06So the family congregated,

0:11:06 > 0:11:08so you have the social impact of television,

0:11:08 > 0:11:11in which everyone came into the same room in the evening,

0:11:11 > 0:11:12watched from start to finish,

0:11:12 > 0:11:15and discussed it next morning with their neighbours

0:11:15 > 0:11:16and their work colleagues.

0:11:16 > 0:11:19So, in social terms, it was very cohesive.

0:11:19 > 0:11:20Having mentioned radio...

0:11:20 > 0:11:23I was working in radio at the beginning of the '60s,

0:11:23 > 0:11:24and radio was still very strong,

0:11:24 > 0:11:28and thinking that television was draining some of the talent away,

0:11:28 > 0:11:29but radio would prevail,

0:11:29 > 0:11:32and then, about five or six years later, that radio would be dead.

0:11:32 > 0:11:34Neither of those things have happened,

0:11:34 > 0:11:38but television was in that balance for a while in the ideas that people

0:11:38 > 0:11:41had, although not so much in the viewing figures.

0:11:41 > 0:11:44I think the problems with the technology, when, as Joan describes,

0:11:44 > 0:11:47the TV was right at the edge of what was possible when it was produced.

0:11:47 > 0:11:50The cathode ray tube was a very difficult thing to produce,

0:11:50 > 0:11:52many of them failed.

0:11:52 > 0:11:54So... We think of TV as beautiful flat-screen TVs,

0:11:54 > 0:11:57they were very difficult things to be involved in early on.

0:11:57 > 0:12:00But this idea that this medium might not survive,

0:12:00 > 0:12:03or this medium might kill the previous medium,

0:12:03 > 0:12:05we're still living with that.

0:12:05 > 0:12:07As long as I've been involved in television,

0:12:07 > 0:12:10the next thing is going to kill it, the internet's going to kill television,

0:12:10 > 0:12:12like television was supposed to have killed radio -

0:12:12 > 0:12:14it hasn't happened. If you go onto a train now,

0:12:14 > 0:12:18there's people with iPads watching television on the train.

0:12:18 > 0:12:19But in the end, nothing kills anything.

0:12:19 > 0:12:21Cinema didn't kill theatre,

0:12:21 > 0:12:23television didn't kill cinema, and so on and so forth.

0:12:23 > 0:12:26- We adapt...- Did it influence you directly, television?

0:12:26 > 0:12:30I think I'm entirely a product of the television age.

0:12:30 > 0:12:31I became an historian

0:12:31 > 0:12:35not because the history lessons at school were absolutely riveting -

0:12:35 > 0:12:38it's cos I went home and I watched Timewatch, and I watched

0:12:38 > 0:12:41Michael Woods, and I watched a generation of TV historians

0:12:41 > 0:12:43bring the past to life in a way

0:12:43 > 0:12:45that I'm afraid my teachers didn't and books didn't.

0:12:45 > 0:12:49I chose my profession because of watching it on television

0:12:49 > 0:12:52- and seeing what it could be. - So, you saw it as an educator?

0:12:52 > 0:12:55Absolutely. I was brought up in a council estate by the Tyne

0:12:55 > 0:12:57and I learnt about history,

0:12:57 > 0:13:00got my desire to become an historian and learnt about art

0:13:00 > 0:13:02through watching television programmes.

0:13:02 > 0:13:051986, there was a series called Artists And Models,

0:13:05 > 0:13:06about French art.

0:13:06 > 0:13:09Three years later, I go interrailing and me and my friends,

0:13:09 > 0:13:13we go to the Louvre. Our idea of where to go had been given to us

0:13:13 > 0:13:15by television. Television gave me an appreciation of art

0:13:15 > 0:13:17I wouldn't have had otherwise.

0:13:17 > 0:13:20One of the other things that was interesting about the time

0:13:20 > 0:13:23was that what we grew up on was cinema, films,

0:13:23 > 0:13:26and we went, all the time, to the cinema,

0:13:26 > 0:13:29you went out of your home for your entertainment.

0:13:29 > 0:13:32Television brought imagery into the home.

0:13:32 > 0:13:35And also exposed you to all sorts of things,

0:13:35 > 0:13:37didn't matter what it was - we watched westerns,

0:13:37 > 0:13:41we watched reality shows, and we watched variety,

0:13:41 > 0:13:44the cameras in front of vaudeville stages.

0:13:44 > 0:13:47It was very unsophisticated, there was no grammar of television,

0:13:47 > 0:13:50it was all a matter of putting cameras in front of events

0:13:50 > 0:13:52and letting it happen.

0:13:52 > 0:13:54- It was very crude.- But very communal, you watched it together.

0:13:54 > 0:13:57Someone described television as the greatest of all inventions,

0:13:57 > 0:14:00cos it allows people who are related to one another to sit in a room

0:14:00 > 0:14:02without having a row. I think there's a lot to that.

0:14:02 > 0:14:06Do you remember how snobbish people were, briefly, about television in the beginning?

0:14:06 > 0:14:08- How...?- Snobbish people, some people?

0:14:08 > 0:14:11- "We never watch television", and so on...- There was a slightly,

0:14:11 > 0:14:14erm, yes, de haut en bas. It's for the populace,

0:14:14 > 0:14:16it's for the masses, cos we rather...

0:14:16 > 0:14:19We're listening to The Third Programme.

0:14:20 > 0:14:23Thanks to Joan Bakewell and David Olusoga.

0:14:23 > 0:14:27Thank you very much. Television wasn't a free-growing plant.

0:14:27 > 0:14:29From the start, it was those in charge who decided

0:14:29 > 0:14:33what was fit to be shown on this new medium of mass communication.

0:14:33 > 0:14:35News, obviously, entertainment and drama.

0:14:35 > 0:14:38Given that this medium was destined to be delivered to a massive

0:14:38 > 0:14:42proportion of the nation at the same time, and much of it live,

0:14:42 > 0:14:44then caution was perhaps inevitable.

0:14:44 > 0:14:47Yet from the start, producers wanted to give the whole country

0:14:47 > 0:14:50a sense of what someone called a smell of itself.

0:14:50 > 0:14:53But did this mean it should be comforting or challenging?

0:14:53 > 0:14:55Feisty or a nice cup of tea?

0:15:00 > 0:15:03The first great audience-grabbing broadcast on British television

0:15:03 > 0:15:06was the coronation of the young Queen Elizabeth II.

0:15:06 > 0:15:07CHEERING

0:15:10 > 0:15:11For the first time in history,

0:15:11 > 0:15:14people from all corners of the nation crowded into small rooms

0:15:14 > 0:15:16to watch and to feel a part of something

0:15:16 > 0:15:18far beyond their usual horizons.

0:15:19 > 0:15:23What's more, they all saw the same thing, at the same moment.

0:15:23 > 0:15:26It was British TV's first great unifying event.

0:15:27 > 0:15:30And the pageantry of the occasion - even in black and white -

0:15:30 > 0:15:34reinforced a widespread deference towards our monarch,

0:15:34 > 0:15:36which has remained for decades.

0:15:37 > 0:15:41A preoccupation with the monarchy has sustained television producers

0:15:41 > 0:15:44ever since, so that more than 60 years on,

0:15:44 > 0:15:46interest in anything royal, from the Tudors...

0:15:50 > 0:15:51Ha!

0:15:51 > 0:15:52..and the Victorians...

0:15:54 > 0:15:56God save the Queen!

0:15:56 > 0:16:00..to the modern Royal Family, still guarantees big audiences.

0:16:00 > 0:16:02A point that was argued at the time of the coronation,

0:16:02 > 0:16:05when Prince Philip was among the first to understand what TV

0:16:05 > 0:16:07could do for the royals.

0:16:07 > 0:16:10How close are you proposing that these cameras get?

0:16:10 > 0:16:13They will be kept at a very discreet distance.

0:16:13 > 0:16:14No close-ups?

0:16:17 > 0:16:19Zoom. Lenses.

0:16:19 > 0:16:23Oh, no. It will all be done with the greatest sensitivity and respect.

0:16:25 > 0:16:28Has this obsession with our royal heritage helped keep us together

0:16:28 > 0:16:30as a nation?

0:16:31 > 0:16:34Or is it evidence of British television's reluctance

0:16:34 > 0:16:36to keep pace with a changing world?

0:16:39 > 0:16:42For centuries, great British institutions, like this behind me -

0:16:42 > 0:16:45Westminster Abbey, a place where kings were crowned -

0:16:45 > 0:16:48were closed to all but the privileged.

0:16:48 > 0:16:51A few Londoners could go in, but the vast majority of people

0:16:51 > 0:16:55in this country didn't know what was going on inside that place.

0:16:55 > 0:16:57Now they do, thanks to television.

0:17:00 > 0:17:03While these programmes managed to prise open the closed doors

0:17:03 > 0:17:06of some of the established structures of our country,

0:17:06 > 0:17:09few, if any, managed to shine a really penetrating light

0:17:09 > 0:17:11into dark corners.

0:17:11 > 0:17:14And why should we expect it to have been otherwise?

0:17:14 > 0:17:18Because, already, three quarters of a million foreign visitors

0:17:18 > 0:17:21have chosen to come to this country this year for their holidays.

0:17:21 > 0:17:24- Well, what exactly do you want? - In its earliest days,

0:17:24 > 0:17:27television, like BBC Radio, looked and sounded as though

0:17:27 > 0:17:29what made it onto the screen

0:17:29 > 0:17:32was all decided by boys from Eton and Harrow and Oxbridge.

0:17:32 > 0:17:35These television pictures will be relayed across the Channel.

0:17:35 > 0:17:37That's because it largely was.

0:17:37 > 0:17:41The voices that carried the news and other serious stuff on radio

0:17:41 > 0:17:44and television were posh, southern and sounded exclusive.

0:17:44 > 0:17:46So now, let's get on with the show.

0:17:46 > 0:17:48# Hark, when the night is falling... #

0:17:48 > 0:17:52It wasn't until after 1955, when Independent Television launched,

0:17:52 > 0:17:54that the nations and regions

0:17:54 > 0:17:57had the chance to air more of their own identity,

0:17:57 > 0:18:01albeit the first forays may have pandered to some stereotypes.

0:18:01 > 0:18:05# High as the spirits of the old Highland men... #

0:18:08 > 0:18:10You're a copper 24 hours a day....

0:18:10 > 0:18:13An apparent reluctance to rock the boat

0:18:13 > 0:18:17also characterised television's approach to serial drama.

0:18:17 > 0:18:18WHISTLING

0:18:18 > 0:18:21- Ah, good evening, all. - Shows like Dixon Of Dock Green

0:18:21 > 0:18:24reassured us that we were all safe in the hands of an incorruptible

0:18:24 > 0:18:26and tolerant police force,

0:18:26 > 0:18:31reinforcing our belief in fair play and the triumph of good.

0:18:31 > 0:18:33I'll see you again next week.

0:18:33 > 0:18:34Ta-ra.

0:18:34 > 0:18:37The bad guys got their comeuppance, the good guys always won.

0:18:42 > 0:18:45It's a comforting view of law and order

0:18:45 > 0:18:47that's lasted into some crime dramas to this day.

0:18:49 > 0:18:52So that even if the victims may be losing their heads,

0:18:52 > 0:18:54you can be sure that Chief Inspector Barnaby

0:18:54 > 0:18:58will track down the crucial clues leading to the culprit.

0:18:58 > 0:18:59A shepherd's pie.

0:19:01 > 0:19:04I confess, I buried it alive.

0:19:04 > 0:19:07It's a world in which disbelief must be suspended.

0:19:09 > 0:19:10It's opening time.

0:19:11 > 0:19:13Quite how anyone is left alive in Oxford,

0:19:13 > 0:19:14as the tortured Inspector Morse

0:19:14 > 0:19:17blunders around in an alcoholic haze, eludes us.

0:19:19 > 0:19:22But providing he's left vindicated and brooding over a pint of real ale

0:19:22 > 0:19:26at the end, we can all sleep soundly in our beds.

0:19:26 > 0:19:27That's not bad, this.

0:19:31 > 0:19:35Early television producers also tuned into the audience's interest

0:19:35 > 0:19:37in peeping behind the curtains of the newly established

0:19:37 > 0:19:40and widely welcomed National Health Service.

0:19:40 > 0:19:41OK, let's have a look at him.

0:19:41 > 0:19:43With versions of life in our hospitals or surgeries

0:19:43 > 0:19:46providing entertainment for millions.

0:19:46 > 0:19:48Dr Finlay, could you come quickly?

0:19:48 > 0:19:51It's Dougie. He's drank the carbolic!

0:19:51 > 0:19:54- What did you put on it?- Initially, there was very little of the blood

0:19:54 > 0:19:56and vomit of the real-life NHS,

0:19:56 > 0:19:59and very few shortages of staff and money.

0:19:59 > 0:20:01Five in resus, 15 in majors and 32 moderate...

0:20:01 > 0:20:05This was, and often remains, a reassuring view of the world

0:20:05 > 0:20:08as we would like to think it is, rather than how it actually is.

0:20:10 > 0:20:11So, what happened?

0:20:11 > 0:20:14Everywhere, there are sympathetic doctors.

0:20:14 > 0:20:16Right. Don't move him, let me have a look at you.

0:20:16 > 0:20:18And nurses who get rather too personally

0:20:18 > 0:20:20involved for anyone's good.

0:20:20 > 0:20:23You'll get all the information you need there. OK?

0:20:26 > 0:20:28Stories usually have a happy ending

0:20:28 > 0:20:30that we can enjoy from the safety of our own homes -

0:20:30 > 0:20:32and that says something

0:20:32 > 0:20:34about how we like to think of ourselves as a nation.

0:20:36 > 0:20:39The National Health Service gave her the gift of motherhood.

0:20:41 > 0:20:45She called her child Grace Miracle.

0:20:46 > 0:20:48And she was perfect.

0:20:51 > 0:20:53One of the greatest blessings of television,

0:20:53 > 0:20:56as far as I'm concerned, is that it brought such fine actors

0:20:56 > 0:20:59and comedy writers to the screen.

0:20:59 > 0:21:04And they provoked a national, classless conversation of delight.

0:21:06 > 0:21:07Like crime and medical drama,

0:21:07 > 0:21:11comedy quickly became a defining characteristic of our television,

0:21:11 > 0:21:13showing confidence in who we were.

0:21:16 > 0:21:18Allowing us to laugh at her own absurdity -

0:21:18 > 0:21:21and sometimes helping to air social concerns.

0:21:21 > 0:21:24- Oh, dear.- Oh, my God!

0:21:24 > 0:21:27Ladies and gentlemen, your new vicar.

0:21:27 > 0:21:29Hello! Geraldine.

0:21:31 > 0:21:33- Boo! - SHE LAUGHS

0:21:33 > 0:21:35Arguably, the British reputation across the world

0:21:35 > 0:21:39for our national sense of humour derives more or less exclusively

0:21:39 > 0:21:40from our television and films.

0:21:44 > 0:21:47Your name will also go on the list.

0:21:47 > 0:21:50- What is it? - Don't tell him, Pike!- Pike.

0:21:52 > 0:21:54Continually on the lookout for aspects of life

0:21:54 > 0:21:57which would unite us and translate into big audiences,

0:21:57 > 0:22:02early TV producers spotted our national affection for our history.

0:22:02 > 0:22:05Which resulted in an often sentimental

0:22:05 > 0:22:06and nostalgic view of the past.

0:22:09 > 0:22:13So, costume drama found a place early on in the schedules.

0:22:13 > 0:22:17And has continued to do so with some of the biggest hits in recent years

0:22:17 > 0:22:20being remakes of old favourites with a few added twists.

0:22:22 > 0:22:23Silence in court.

0:22:23 > 0:22:28Now we come, not for the first time, to Jarndyce and Jarndyce.

0:22:28 > 0:22:31We were told that the nation's female hearts

0:22:31 > 0:22:34all missed a simultaneous beat when Colin Firth emerged

0:22:34 > 0:22:37from the lake as Darcy in a wet shirt.

0:22:38 > 0:22:40Mr Darcy!

0:22:42 > 0:22:45And we're told they missed several beats when Aidan Turner

0:22:45 > 0:22:48did actually take off his shirt in Poldark.

0:22:48 > 0:22:51As he scythed, someone said, the nation sighed.

0:22:58 > 0:23:02Much of our most popular costume drama has focused on class.

0:23:02 > 0:23:06And again, often presenting a rosy view of the past.

0:23:09 > 0:23:12- It's five minutes to 11, sir. - Oh, thank you, Hudson...

0:23:12 > 0:23:14An early favourite was Upstairs Downstairs,

0:23:14 > 0:23:16in which the gentlefolk above ground

0:23:16 > 0:23:18were largely benevolent -

0:23:18 > 0:23:22and the servants below were largely hard-working and honest.

0:23:22 > 0:23:24That's gone into the coal.

0:23:24 > 0:23:27But most important of all, everyone knew their place.

0:23:27 > 0:23:29- BELL RINGS - That must be the morning room.

0:23:35 > 0:23:3840 years later, the identical themes underpinned

0:23:38 > 0:23:42one of the most popular dramas of the age.

0:23:42 > 0:23:46Are there still forbidden subjects in 1920?

0:23:46 > 0:23:47I can't believe this.

0:23:49 > 0:23:50I agree with Mama.

0:23:50 > 0:23:53Some subjects are not suitable for every ear.

0:23:53 > 0:23:57Mm. Pas devant les domestiques?

0:23:57 > 0:23:59Come on, my dear.

0:23:59 > 0:24:02Carson and Alfred know more about life than we ever will.

0:24:06 > 0:24:08With all the modern talk of a fast-changing,

0:24:08 > 0:24:10ethnically mixed Britain,

0:24:10 > 0:24:13a nostalgic look at the British class system

0:24:13 > 0:24:15still has the power to produce huge audiences.

0:24:16 > 0:24:21You know, the way to deal with the world today is not to ignore it.

0:24:21 > 0:24:24If you do, you'll just get hurt.

0:24:24 > 0:24:28Sometimes, I feel like a creature in the wilds whose natural habitat

0:24:28 > 0:24:29is gradually being destroyed.

0:24:38 > 0:24:40Later, we'll look at the various ways that television

0:24:40 > 0:24:43has challenged what some thought was our self-confidence

0:24:43 > 0:24:45and others our complacency.

0:24:45 > 0:24:48But I wonder whether it was inevitable from those earliest days

0:24:48 > 0:24:52that teams around which we could all unite would dominate the schedules.

0:24:52 > 0:24:55Alongside Joan Bakewell, I'm joined by Michael Grade -

0:24:55 > 0:24:57who's enjoyed a long and distinguished career in television,

0:24:57 > 0:25:00with top jobs at the BBC, ITV and Channel 4 -

0:25:00 > 0:25:02and Anthony Horowitz - creator of Foyle's War,

0:25:02 > 0:25:05and writer of some of television's most popular drama,

0:25:05 > 0:25:07including Midsomer Murders and Poirot.

0:25:07 > 0:25:12Michael, why do you think that we dipped in a nostalgia so early

0:25:12 > 0:25:14and have held onto it so tenaciously?

0:25:14 > 0:25:16Great stories. It's storytelling, that's all it is.

0:25:16 > 0:25:18It's what Anthony does so brilliantly,

0:25:18 > 0:25:21and that's what our literary heritage

0:25:21 > 0:25:25that we borrow from in modern series, but essentially,

0:25:25 > 0:25:29it's just great stories, and TV can bring great stories,

0:25:29 > 0:25:32and people never tire of great stories.

0:25:32 > 0:25:35Anthony, you've tapped into the past in drama.

0:25:35 > 0:25:37- What takes you there? - Takes me back?- Mm.

0:25:37 > 0:25:41I think I like dramatizing history because it gives me

0:25:41 > 0:25:44a sort of certainty. I know exactly what was going on there.

0:25:44 > 0:25:45If I try and write about where we are now,

0:25:45 > 0:25:48people will argue with me and say, no, it's not like that at all.

0:25:48 > 0:25:51But I think we do have an idea of sort of Second World War,

0:25:51 > 0:25:54for example, or the villages where Midsomer Murders is set,

0:25:54 > 0:25:58but it's sort of very much in our national psyche and it's a certainty

0:25:58 > 0:26:01- about it which I like. - Is the certainty beguiling?

0:26:01 > 0:26:04Do you think the certainty works because it works with you,

0:26:04 > 0:26:07or the certainty's there because it really was like that?

0:26:07 > 0:26:09No, it wasn't like that at all. Of course not.

0:26:09 > 0:26:10- That's the joy of it. - LAUGHTER

0:26:10 > 0:26:13You're dealing with a sort of a myth here.

0:26:13 > 0:26:15I mean, Midsomer never existed.

0:26:15 > 0:26:17Old ladies on tricycles going around the place,

0:26:17 > 0:26:19thatched cottages and the sun always shining.

0:26:19 > 0:26:22I mean, that doesn't exist, but it is somehow in our minds -

0:26:22 > 0:26:25just like the Second World War, of course, and the Home Front -

0:26:25 > 0:26:28the stiff upper lip, that this is how it was.

0:26:28 > 0:26:30It's how we've been sort of programmed ourselves.

0:26:30 > 0:26:32And why do you think,

0:26:32 > 0:26:35given that you say more or less this is a fiction based on a fact,

0:26:35 > 0:26:36why do you think it plays so well?

0:26:36 > 0:26:39Because it's comforting, or because we want to have been like that?

0:26:39 > 0:26:42I would say it's because modern life is increasingly less comforting,

0:26:42 > 0:26:44because we're now so uncertain of where we are.

0:26:44 > 0:26:46Look at America with Trump,

0:26:46 > 0:26:48look at Brexit, look at everything around us.

0:26:48 > 0:26:52Look at the way 24-hour news now throws us from side to side.

0:26:52 > 0:26:53We don't know where we are any more,

0:26:53 > 0:26:56so we can turn on the television and find certainty.

0:26:57 > 0:27:02Joan, Joan Bakewell, did television, in the early days,

0:27:02 > 0:27:06feel like a club run by men for other men?

0:27:06 > 0:27:08Yes, because it primarily was.

0:27:08 > 0:27:10I mean, there were some outstanding women.

0:27:10 > 0:27:13Grace Wyndham Goldie was very famous for leading a department,

0:27:13 > 0:27:16but it was assumed that women wouldn't get the jobs

0:27:16 > 0:27:19unless they made a special effort.

0:27:19 > 0:27:21So, they weren't on the screen.

0:27:21 > 0:27:24The stories, on the whole, reinforced the place of women.

0:27:24 > 0:27:27The women were the nurses, the men were the doctors.

0:27:27 > 0:27:30There were women's programmes, to which I contributed,

0:27:30 > 0:27:32which were done in the afternoon,

0:27:32 > 0:27:34because that's when women would be watching television,

0:27:34 > 0:27:35cos they didn't have jobs.

0:27:35 > 0:27:38I did a programme called Home At 4.30,

0:27:38 > 0:27:40which was full of knitting and recipes...

0:27:40 > 0:27:43LAUGHTER Did you do that?

0:27:43 > 0:27:46Yes, and some of those programmes were actually presented by men,

0:27:46 > 0:27:49but with adjacent women in inferior roles.

0:27:49 > 0:27:53So, the whole role of women was very clearly demarcated,

0:27:53 > 0:27:56both in the reality, in the fictional programmes,

0:27:56 > 0:27:59and in the real programmes. Also, something else,

0:27:59 > 0:28:02it comes out of the selection you've just had there,

0:28:02 > 0:28:04it's the importance of the church.

0:28:04 > 0:28:06The church was very important.

0:28:06 > 0:28:10There was something called The God Slot, which obliged every television

0:28:10 > 0:28:16channel to stop doing entertainment between 6.15 and 7.45

0:28:16 > 0:28:20so that people would not be persuaded not to go to church.

0:28:20 > 0:28:22We were a churchgoing country

0:28:22 > 0:28:24and the idea that television would seduce

0:28:24 > 0:28:27people away from that was seen as a social responsibility.

0:28:27 > 0:28:31So you had to do serious, worthy programmes on Sunday evenings.

0:28:31 > 0:28:34And now and then somebody would pop up which said, "Please mention God"?

0:28:34 > 0:28:36Well... That happened in my programme, I'm afraid.

0:28:36 > 0:28:40Because we didn't really want to do programmes about God,

0:28:40 > 0:28:43we did social issues and their moral content,

0:28:43 > 0:28:46and we tried to bring God in, and on one occasion forgot,

0:28:46 > 0:28:50and someone rushed in with a notice board saying, "Mention God."

0:28:50 > 0:28:51LAUGHTER

0:28:53 > 0:28:56Michael, one of the things that happened

0:28:56 > 0:28:58was the scooping up of people,

0:28:58 > 0:29:01great entertainers from the seaside resorts -

0:29:01 > 0:29:03we've seen Morecambe and Wise - bringing them in,

0:29:03 > 0:29:06and it must have had a terrific impact on them, because they

0:29:06 > 0:29:09were using in a night material that would've lasted them

0:29:09 > 0:29:11- for a year or two. - Well, that's absolutely true,

0:29:11 > 0:29:13and a lot of them fell by the wayside.

0:29:13 > 0:29:15They couldn't make the transition.

0:29:15 > 0:29:19Very, very few great musical hall variety performers

0:29:19 > 0:29:21made the transition.

0:29:21 > 0:29:25Frankie Howard, Tommy Cooper, Morecambe and Wise, Des O'Connor,

0:29:25 > 0:29:27Harry Worth, a blessed memory.

0:29:27 > 0:29:30Not many of them... Bruce Forsyth, of course,

0:29:30 > 0:29:34but there are hundreds more who couldn't make the transition.

0:29:34 > 0:29:39They had their five minutes that they could do at Hackney Empire -

0:29:39 > 0:29:42and that was all they had, was those five minutes.

0:29:42 > 0:29:45It took Eric and Ernie a long time to learn how to use the medium,

0:29:45 > 0:29:48- how to use cameras. - So then what happened?

0:29:48 > 0:29:52Did comedians start to work for television through television?

0:29:52 > 0:29:55Yes. There were shows like Sunday Night At The Palladium,

0:29:55 > 0:29:57which was a ground-breaking show,

0:29:57 > 0:30:00which moved variety on television

0:30:00 > 0:30:03from very patrician - Cafe Continental,

0:30:03 > 0:30:08which was a Saturday night BBC entertainment, pre-ITV -

0:30:08 > 0:30:12which consisted of an audience in white tie and tails and the women in

0:30:12 > 0:30:16long gowns and gloves, sitting, sipping pseudo cocktails

0:30:16 > 0:30:21and very "refeened" variety acts would come on and do some

0:30:21 > 0:30:23very "refeened" stuff.

0:30:23 > 0:30:26Sunday Night At The Palladium

0:30:26 > 0:30:30changed that overnight and made huge stars out of many, many people.

0:30:30 > 0:30:33Anthony, you've written so much, and been so successful -

0:30:33 > 0:30:37can I just go back to this idea of presenting a view of this

0:30:37 > 0:30:40country that some people think is idealised?

0:30:40 > 0:30:41Can you develop that a bit?

0:30:41 > 0:30:43Well, I don't set out to do that.

0:30:43 > 0:30:45I know you don't.

0:30:45 > 0:30:47In a show like Foyle's War, for example,

0:30:47 > 0:30:49a lot of what we wrote about in Foyle's War was really much the sort

0:30:49 > 0:30:52of, the dark side of the Home Front in the Second World War.

0:30:53 > 0:30:56Treason and anti-Semitism, and cowardice.

0:30:56 > 0:30:58These were the sort of subjects that we tackled.

0:30:58 > 0:31:02But first of all, because it was period, because it's old cars,

0:31:02 > 0:31:05and it's old hats, and it's the throb of the Spitfire,

0:31:05 > 0:31:06and it's all that stuff,

0:31:06 > 0:31:10it comes with a sort of added warmth, which you can't really escape.

0:31:10 > 0:31:12So people take away from the show this very warm,

0:31:12 > 0:31:15benign view of the world you're presenting.

0:31:15 > 0:31:19So it's in-built, rather than done by design.

0:31:19 > 0:31:21Do you think that, finally,

0:31:21 > 0:31:24do you think there was a sense that this is what the people who are

0:31:24 > 0:31:26running television wanted to happen?

0:31:26 > 0:31:28Well, who are the people running television?

0:31:28 > 0:31:31I mean, I wrote Foyle the way I wanted to write it -

0:31:31 > 0:31:33nobody told me what to do.

0:31:33 > 0:31:35I'm very pleased to hear it, thank you very much.

0:31:35 > 0:31:39Thanks to Joan Bakewell, Michael Grade, and Anthony Horowitz.

0:31:39 > 0:31:43From the beginning, television has undoubtedly played its part in

0:31:43 > 0:31:47reinforcing our own self-image of being fair-minded, patriotic,

0:31:47 > 0:31:50and compassionate, with an appetite for nostalgia and a very particular

0:31:50 > 0:31:54sense of humour. But our television is has also had an honourable tradition

0:31:54 > 0:31:58of jolting us out of our comfort zone by showing a slice of what producers

0:31:58 > 0:32:00would claim was more real British life.

0:32:01 > 0:32:05The problem was to find a family prepared to tolerate the intrusion,

0:32:05 > 0:32:07by a film crew, into their every private moment.

0:32:07 > 0:32:10We carried out many interviews and, finally,

0:32:10 > 0:32:13one family emerged that we hope can meet the demands of this documentary

0:32:13 > 0:32:15serial. The Wilkins, of Reading.

0:32:17 > 0:32:20In 1974, a young producer, Paul Watson,

0:32:20 > 0:32:24transformed British TV documentary by holding a mirror to the realities

0:32:24 > 0:32:27of everyday working-class life in The Family,

0:32:27 > 0:32:31providing an intimate view of the Wilkins family from Reading,

0:32:31 > 0:32:32warts and all.

0:32:32 > 0:32:35I mean, you see all these kitchen sink dramas, beautiful

0:32:35 > 0:32:39kitchens, nothing out of place.

0:32:39 > 0:32:41No dirty pans and what have you.

0:32:41 > 0:32:45All sparkling. Well, people's kitchens aren't like that.

0:32:46 > 0:32:50These were not the sort of people who had been seen on television before.

0:32:50 > 0:32:53And the harsh and crowded reality of their lives, and millions like them,

0:32:53 > 0:32:56were a revelation to television viewers.

0:32:56 > 0:33:00- Bullshit!- I've already burnt the bloody sausages, haven't I?

0:33:00 > 0:33:01INDISTINCT SINGING

0:33:05 > 0:33:07- What?- Stop making faces!

0:33:07 > 0:33:09Oh, bloody Nora, Mother!

0:33:09 > 0:33:10It's hard to credit today,

0:33:10 > 0:33:12but 1970s audiences were shocked

0:33:12 > 0:33:15by any use of bad language and swearing,

0:33:15 > 0:33:17and the thwarting of social convention.

0:33:18 > 0:33:22Television had opened a window onto everyday reality,

0:33:22 > 0:33:25and the domestic and social problems of ordinary people.

0:33:25 > 0:33:29"..due to the fact that sleeping accommodation is for us two,

0:33:29 > 0:33:31"and the baby, is situated in the one room..."

0:33:31 > 0:33:35And if our TV documentary was taking us from a consoling Pathe News view

0:33:35 > 0:33:38of the world, to the more accurate reality of life

0:33:38 > 0:33:42as it was lived by most people, our TV drama was already doing the same.

0:33:44 > 0:33:45Launched in 1964,

0:33:45 > 0:33:50BBC Television's The Wednesday Play gave a voice to the working class...

0:33:50 > 0:33:53Dirty sod, I hope your guts drop out!

0:33:53 > 0:33:55..and made people face up to difficult truths.

0:33:56 > 0:33:59Can you leave it this week? Only I'm a bit short.

0:33:59 > 0:34:01Come on, love, you've £8 owing.

0:34:01 > 0:34:02You'd better let me have ten bob.

0:34:02 > 0:34:05Yeah, but my old man didn't give me very much this week.

0:34:05 > 0:34:09Branded by Mary Whitehouse as a platform for

0:34:09 > 0:34:11dirt, doubt and disbelief,

0:34:11 > 0:34:13it both reflected and challenged contemporary Britain.

0:34:13 > 0:34:15You're not having my kids!

0:34:15 > 0:34:16You're not having my kids!

0:34:16 > 0:34:20Ken Loach brilliantly used documentary techniques within drama

0:34:20 > 0:34:23to highlight homelessness in Cathy Come Home,

0:34:23 > 0:34:26and backstreet abortions in Up The Junction.

0:34:29 > 0:34:30We're all done, love.

0:34:30 > 0:34:34The tradition continued with directors like Alan Clark,

0:34:34 > 0:34:38who seized the chance to push the boundaries with films like Scum -

0:34:38 > 0:34:41his depiction of life in a brutal borstal.

0:34:42 > 0:34:44Right, you bastard!

0:34:44 > 0:34:48I'm the daddy now. Next time, I'll fucking kill you.

0:34:48 > 0:34:51While Alan Bleasdale's 1982 Boys From The Black Stuff

0:34:51 > 0:34:56captured the public mood as rising unemployment gave way to despair.

0:34:56 > 0:34:59Go on, give us a job. Go on, give us a go!

0:35:02 > 0:35:03That's been waiting for you half an hour.

0:35:03 > 0:35:06And it wasn't just one-off drama that broadened the horizons of

0:35:06 > 0:35:08the television-viewing public.

0:35:08 > 0:35:11- Well!- I'm very sorry, love.

0:35:11 > 0:35:15In 1960, Granada transformed the TV landscape with the launch of what

0:35:15 > 0:35:19was to become Britain's longest-running TV soap, Coronation Street.

0:35:19 > 0:35:21..place looking like a pigsty.

0:35:21 > 0:35:25Confident, unselfconscious, and unashamedly working class,

0:35:25 > 0:35:27it was embraced by the whole country.

0:35:27 > 0:35:29It's coming to something when father and son fall out.

0:35:29 > 0:35:32Oh, I was just talking about that to Mr Swindley -

0:35:32 > 0:35:34he says it will be very dangerous,

0:35:34 > 0:35:38that fallout from the big bombs the Russians keep letting off.

0:35:38 > 0:35:40Mr Swindley says it will be quite drastic.

0:35:40 > 0:35:43While the north had often been treated to life in the south,

0:35:43 > 0:35:47it was, for many southerners, their first glimpse of life in the north.

0:35:47 > 0:35:51What do you think of that? Are you listening to this? I want you as witnesses after this.

0:35:51 > 0:35:53And they took to it, in unequalled millions.

0:35:53 > 0:35:56- All right, Mum?- You're up, are you?- Hello, lad.

0:35:56 > 0:35:58We'll never eat this amount of stuff every week, Sheila.

0:35:58 > 0:36:00We don't, the kids do.

0:36:00 > 0:36:01Especially Gareth over there.

0:36:04 > 0:36:06A torrent of northern drama followed,

0:36:06 > 0:36:07bringing a clear identity

0:36:07 > 0:36:09for a part of the country that had previously

0:36:09 > 0:36:11been little known or understood.

0:36:15 > 0:36:18And with an increased appetite for dramas about real life,

0:36:18 > 0:36:22soap operas became an arena in which important social issues could be explored.

0:36:22 > 0:36:25I'll ring you lunchtime, OK?

0:36:25 > 0:36:29This kiss between two gay characters in EastEnders was considered so

0:36:29 > 0:36:33controversial that it provoked questions in Parliament in 1987.

0:36:33 > 0:36:38And in 1994, Brookside showed the first pre-watershed lesbian kiss.

0:36:40 > 0:36:44With their huge audiences, soaps have continued to be an important

0:36:44 > 0:36:47platform for addressing contemporary issues.

0:36:47 > 0:36:49Is this enough?

0:36:50 > 0:36:52You'll get yourself killed!

0:36:52 > 0:36:54I'm fine. I'm fine.

0:36:54 > 0:36:57- Just wait.- No, no, I can't.

0:36:57 > 0:36:58I have to go. I have to go.

0:37:00 > 0:37:01I'll miss my...

0:37:04 > 0:37:06..bus.

0:37:06 > 0:37:10But arguably, while British television has been commendable in many areas,

0:37:10 > 0:37:12it's been sluggardly in others,

0:37:12 > 0:37:15not least in the role it ascribed to women.

0:37:15 > 0:37:16What's this, Mrs Sharples?

0:37:16 > 0:37:18What do you think it is? A birthday card?

0:37:18 > 0:37:21- It's your notice.- While soap operas developed a tradition of presenting

0:37:21 > 0:37:23strong female characters

0:37:23 > 0:37:26like Ena Sharples and Elsie Tanner in Coronation Street...

0:37:26 > 0:37:28You get off of me!

0:37:28 > 0:37:30..and Peggy Mitchell in EastEnders...

0:37:30 > 0:37:33- You bitch!- You cow!

0:37:33 > 0:37:35..women were often trapped in cliched roles

0:37:35 > 0:37:38and portrayed as dolly birds or housewives, or both.

0:37:38 > 0:37:42The fact remains that you were wearing a 36D cup in Junior School,

0:37:42 > 0:37:43weren't you?

0:37:43 > 0:37:45That's not my fault. That's nature.

0:37:45 > 0:37:47All right, put 'em away. Put 'em away.

0:37:47 > 0:37:50He was laughing and joking when he came in.

0:37:50 > 0:37:52Said to be in the club tonight.

0:37:52 > 0:37:55Perhaps that was why, in 1991,

0:37:55 > 0:37:59Prime Suspect's DCI Jane Tennison had such an impact.

0:37:59 > 0:38:03Look, I am the only officer of my rank who was continuously overstepped,

0:38:03 > 0:38:05sidestepped, whatever.

0:38:05 > 0:38:07Just give me the chance to prove that I can...

0:38:07 > 0:38:10You don't have to prove yourself to me.

0:38:10 > 0:38:12Here was a strong, self-reliant woman,

0:38:12 > 0:38:16complete with the flaws that had marked her male TV counterparts.

0:38:16 > 0:38:18Taking the lead in a man's world,

0:38:18 > 0:38:21and paving the way for others like her.

0:38:21 > 0:38:23I'm Catherine, by the way, I'm 47.

0:38:23 > 0:38:27I'm divorced, I live with my sister who is a recovering heroin addict.

0:38:27 > 0:38:29I've two grown-up children, one dead, one I don't speak to,

0:38:29 > 0:38:32and a grandson, so...

0:38:32 > 0:38:33Keep dancing!

0:38:33 > 0:38:35However, it remains very much a man's world

0:38:35 > 0:38:36in other areas of television

0:38:36 > 0:38:39where older women are noticeably absent.

0:38:39 > 0:38:43A 2013 report revealed that just one in 20 of the presenters

0:38:43 > 0:38:46on our screen are women over 50.

0:38:46 > 0:38:49These columns speak of authority.

0:38:49 > 0:38:52And when an older woman with first-rate credentials and presenting skills

0:38:52 > 0:38:56does appear, it's her age and looks that make the headlines.

0:38:56 > 0:38:57If there's just one Roman that

0:38:57 > 0:39:01everyone knows, it's Julius Caesar.

0:39:01 > 0:39:03And from those famous last words -

0:39:03 > 0:39:05"Et tu, Brute,"

0:39:05 > 0:39:07which he definitely didn't say...

0:39:07 > 0:39:09Anyway, I was wondering...

0:39:09 > 0:39:13British television has been slow to represent disability.

0:39:13 > 0:39:17TV's first regular disabled soap part only came about because the

0:39:17 > 0:39:21able-bodied actor who played Sandy Richardson had an illness that rendered him immobile.

0:39:21 > 0:39:25The producer wrote his disability into the story.

0:39:25 > 0:39:27I'll have a word with Mr McPhee.

0:39:27 > 0:39:29- Hello, Sandy.- Hi. Thanks very much.

0:39:31 > 0:39:34And then there's the changing racial and ethnic mix of the country -

0:39:34 > 0:39:38an area in which TV has also been shockingly slow

0:39:38 > 0:39:39to reflect real life.

0:39:41 > 0:39:45In 1968, Barbara Blake Hannah became the first black news reporter on

0:39:45 > 0:39:46British TV.

0:39:46 > 0:39:47Are you willing to rewrite...

0:39:47 > 0:39:49But her career was short-lived.

0:39:49 > 0:39:52Her first contract was terminated after just nine months,

0:39:52 > 0:39:55in response to daily complaints from viewers.

0:39:59 > 0:40:01But while 1960s viewers found it difficult to cope

0:40:01 > 0:40:05with a black presenter, they'd no problem with blacked-up faces,

0:40:05 > 0:40:08in one of the most popular shows of the time -

0:40:08 > 0:40:10The Black And White Minstrel Show.

0:40:10 > 0:40:15# Chariots a-swinging... #

0:40:15 > 0:40:19It was only finally taken off the air in 1978.

0:40:20 > 0:40:23You said he was born in Manchester.

0:40:23 > 0:40:26- Yeah.- Well, he ain't a proper blackie, then, is he?

0:40:26 > 0:40:29Early attempts to reflect an increasingly diverse population

0:40:29 > 0:40:32were often through comedy, where sometimes

0:40:32 > 0:40:35it was unclear whether the programmes were reinforcing

0:40:35 > 0:40:36prejudice or mocking it.

0:40:36 > 0:40:39I mean, the ones I'm talking about, they are your proper blacks,

0:40:39 > 0:40:41ain't they? The ones that was born in the jungle.

0:40:41 > 0:40:43I love English food.

0:40:43 > 0:40:46Get off, you just fancy the waiters, innit, huh?

0:40:46 > 0:40:48It was only in the 1990s,

0:40:48 > 0:40:50when producers turned to black and Asian writers

0:40:50 > 0:40:51that viewers were offered

0:40:51 > 0:40:55a different perspective with shows like, Goodness, Gracious Me!...

0:40:55 > 0:40:58It wouldn't be Friday night if we didn't go for an English.

0:40:58 > 0:41:01..and The Kumars At Number 42,

0:41:01 > 0:41:03brilliantly skewing British behaviour

0:41:03 > 0:41:04by flipping it on its head.

0:41:06 > 0:41:08So, boys...

0:41:08 > 0:41:10Let's talk football.

0:41:11 > 0:41:14- I...- I hear about the wet look.

0:41:14 > 0:41:16Alongside comedy,

0:41:16 > 0:41:20the 1990s saw a handful of sitcoms featuring non-white casts.

0:41:21 > 0:41:23But progress has been slow.

0:41:23 > 0:41:26And today it's noticeable how many shows still resort

0:41:26 > 0:41:27to crude stereotypes.

0:41:27 > 0:41:29Walk away, disrespect me, Errol.

0:41:34 > 0:41:37Just last year, the BBC's Undercover

0:41:37 > 0:41:39was hailed by some as a milestone when Sophie Okenedo

0:41:39 > 0:41:43and Adrian Lester were cast in a show where the colour of

0:41:43 > 0:41:45their skin wasn't central to the plot.

0:41:46 > 0:41:50Here was a middle-class black family whose identity was not just defined

0:41:50 > 0:41:52by their race.

0:41:53 > 0:41:58Now, nobody's saying Chatsworth estate is the Garden of Eden.

0:41:58 > 0:42:00But it's been a good home to us. To me.

0:42:00 > 0:42:03While British TV has been slow to reflect social change in many

0:42:03 > 0:42:08areas, there've also been successful attempts to inject more realism into

0:42:08 > 0:42:10the schedules.

0:42:10 > 0:42:13The comfortable crime and medical dramas that had been a staple

0:42:13 > 0:42:15since the earliest days of television

0:42:15 > 0:42:17have been brought sharply up-to-date,

0:42:17 > 0:42:20in shows like Jed Mercurio's Line Of Duty -

0:42:20 > 0:42:22the antithesis of the cosy escapist cop show...

0:42:24 > 0:42:25No!

0:42:26 > 0:42:30..and Bodies, an unflinching view of a disintegrating NHS.

0:42:30 > 0:42:32Something went wrong, didn't it?

0:42:34 > 0:42:35In the operation?

0:42:38 > 0:42:43- Sometimes things go wrong.- But while programmes like these undoubtedly do

0:42:43 > 0:42:46their best to challenge complacency and reflect a changing Britain,

0:42:46 > 0:42:49we live in an age where there is a proliferation of channels,

0:42:49 > 0:42:52many of which are dominated by fly-on-the-wall shows

0:42:52 > 0:42:54and a different kind of reality.

0:42:57 > 0:42:58These may attempt to show who we are...

0:43:00 > 0:43:03James Turner Street was one of the best streets.

0:43:03 > 0:43:05Unemployed, unemployed.

0:43:05 > 0:43:08Now, one of the worst.

0:43:08 > 0:43:10..but do they really?

0:43:10 > 0:43:12Unemployed. Unemployed.

0:43:12 > 0:43:15Or is reality, in fact, one big misnomer,

0:43:15 > 0:43:20and is our TV, for the most part, failing to reflect, in any meaningful way, who we've become?

0:43:23 > 0:43:27That's just a scan of 60 years of television's attempts to engage with

0:43:27 > 0:43:31a changing Britain. But how successfully has it managed the balance the cosy

0:43:31 > 0:43:32with the more radical agenda?

0:43:32 > 0:43:36Joining me to discuss this, one of our foremost film-makers,

0:43:36 > 0:43:39responsible for some of television's most ground-breaking drama,

0:43:39 > 0:43:43Ken Loach, writer, broadcaster, and former politician Trevor Phillips,

0:43:43 > 0:43:45and multi-award-winning screenwriter Abi Morgan,

0:43:45 > 0:43:50whose television credits include Birdsong, The Hour, and most recently, River.

0:43:50 > 0:43:55Ken, in the 1960s you made films showing a side of Britain which had

0:43:55 > 0:43:57rarely been seen before.

0:43:57 > 0:44:00When you made them, were you aware of the power that these films could

0:44:00 > 0:44:03- have?- We were aware of the power of television, I think.

0:44:04 > 0:44:07And I think we knew we were on to something.

0:44:08 > 0:44:12And we were at a point when drama was moving out of the studio,

0:44:12 > 0:44:13onto the streets.

0:44:13 > 0:44:17So all that came together to tell contemporary stories.

0:44:17 > 0:44:22But I think it was a time when the ruling class was very confident,

0:44:22 > 0:44:25so they felt able to let these stories be told.

0:44:25 > 0:44:31When the ruling class is not confident, then the noose tightens.

0:44:31 > 0:44:36You see that in wartime, you see it when there's industrial unrest.

0:44:36 > 0:44:42And you see it very much now, when society is fractured,

0:44:42 > 0:44:44and in conflict.

0:44:44 > 0:44:47So when you did Cathy Come Home and Up The Junction and so on,

0:44:47 > 0:44:48was there much opposition?

0:44:48 > 0:44:52Did you and Tony Garnett say, we want to do this?

0:44:52 > 0:44:54Well, Garnett was one heck of an operator,

0:44:54 > 0:44:58but, even so, you got it through on your own terms?

0:44:58 > 0:45:02Yes. The critical figure was Sydney Newman, who was head of drama,

0:45:02 > 0:45:08and he gave us the go-ahead to do contemporary fiction after the news.

0:45:08 > 0:45:09And we tried to make it

0:45:09 > 0:45:13indistinguishable from the news, in a way.

0:45:13 > 0:45:17In that people would use the same critical faculties they used on the news for the drama.

0:45:17 > 0:45:21And we got into trouble because people said they couldn't

0:45:21 > 0:45:23tell if it was fact or fiction.

0:45:23 > 0:45:24And we said, precisely.

0:45:24 > 0:45:30But, in fact, if Sydney said it was OK, it was OK.

0:45:30 > 0:45:34I think the difficulty now is there are so many checks and balances

0:45:34 > 0:45:37all the way up, and so much micromanagement,

0:45:37 > 0:45:41that I don't think we could make those programmes now.

0:45:41 > 0:45:43We now look back on these as great successes

0:45:43 > 0:45:46but, at the time, was there a lot of resistance, outrage,

0:45:46 > 0:45:47outcry about them?

0:45:47 > 0:45:50Um...yes.

0:45:51 > 0:45:53But from...

0:45:53 > 0:45:55But it was fraudulent.

0:45:55 > 0:45:57We did a series called Days Of Hope,

0:45:57 > 0:46:00which was about the labour movement's

0:46:00 > 0:46:02struggle from the First World War to the General Strike,

0:46:02 > 0:46:05and somebody in one of the right-wing papers said,

0:46:05 > 0:46:07"We can't believe a word in this film,

0:46:07 > 0:46:10"because the soldiers are marching in fours not threes."

0:46:10 > 0:46:14At the same time, there was a programme - or round about the same time -

0:46:14 > 0:46:18there was a programme about Churchill called The Young Churchill which was hagiography -

0:46:18 > 0:46:20it was flattering beyond words.

0:46:20 > 0:46:23There was no mention that that was confusing fact and fiction.

0:46:23 > 0:46:25That was fine.

0:46:25 > 0:46:28And I think what is central to this discussion -

0:46:28 > 0:46:33I don't know if you'd agree - is that broadcasting is an arm of the state.

0:46:34 > 0:46:36It is controlled by politicians.

0:46:36 > 0:46:39And, of course, it will conflict with governments.

0:46:39 > 0:46:43But the central tenets of the state are not challenged -

0:46:43 > 0:46:47hierarchy, monarchy, established religion,

0:46:47 > 0:46:50freedom equals the freedom of the market.

0:46:50 > 0:46:54And so you don't see... What you don't see - it's very interesting -

0:46:54 > 0:46:56what you don't see there is the ruling class

0:46:56 > 0:46:58being given a dose of social realism.

0:46:58 > 0:47:01If we started on that, we're here all night.

0:47:01 > 0:47:05That wouldn't be a bad idea, to be here all night, but we've got to ask about the women here.

0:47:05 > 0:47:08You... Prime Suspect meant a lot to you, didn't it?

0:47:08 > 0:47:12Yeah, I mean, you know, seeing a show,

0:47:12 > 0:47:14and certainly a cop show at that time

0:47:14 > 0:47:16led by a woman, and a woman like,

0:47:16 > 0:47:19you know, Jane Tennison, was kind of extraordinary,

0:47:19 > 0:47:20because she was flawed.

0:47:20 > 0:47:23She was complex. She was addressing the issue in the room.

0:47:23 > 0:47:25I think it was very exciting, also, to see a workplace drama where she

0:47:25 > 0:47:28was driving the story and the narrative.

0:47:28 > 0:47:31Do you feel, even now - do you still feel that women are

0:47:31 > 0:47:34underrepresented in many different areas and ways in television?

0:47:34 > 0:47:36I think, statistically, they are.

0:47:36 > 0:47:38Yes, basically.

0:47:38 > 0:47:41I think what really is interesting is about the female ensembles on TV.

0:47:41 > 0:47:43We see male ensembles again and again,

0:47:43 > 0:47:45but the reason why I'm interested in female ensembles -

0:47:45 > 0:47:49so I would look at shows like Band Of Gold, you know,

0:47:49 > 0:47:53and certainly Sally Wainwright's work, where you see someone like Scott & Bailey,

0:47:53 > 0:47:55which is a group of women working together -

0:47:55 > 0:47:58is that for me, it's exciting not only on a political level,

0:47:58 > 0:48:02but on a professional level, because you're bringing up the next generation of female actors as well.

0:48:02 > 0:48:03So that's what I like to see.

0:48:03 > 0:48:07We've see movies again and again, you know, cop shows,

0:48:07 > 0:48:09where there are five or six men in the room.

0:48:09 > 0:48:12That's also about employment of actors for me, so, for me,

0:48:12 > 0:48:15television is a political means to tell a very strong political story,

0:48:15 > 0:48:18but it's also, actually, in the very act of its making, a political act.

0:48:18 > 0:48:22So that's why I get excited about writing for women.

0:48:22 > 0:48:24Do you think there's been much progress in the...

0:48:24 > 0:48:26What did the statistics show - you must know -

0:48:26 > 0:48:29about women representation on television?

0:48:29 > 0:48:30Geena Davis is very interesting,

0:48:30 > 0:48:36in terms of her research that she's done for her

0:48:36 > 0:48:39media centre for equality in the media.

0:48:39 > 0:48:41She talks about the magic 17%.

0:48:41 > 0:48:43Certainly, in relation to US television

0:48:43 > 0:48:45it's this magic 17% where they

0:48:45 > 0:48:48looked at 17% of jobs across the board,

0:48:48 > 0:48:52and specifically they started to look at background artists in shows.

0:48:52 > 0:48:55And they found that 17% of background artists, on the whole, are women.

0:48:55 > 0:48:58So that's a huge statistical difference, and so,

0:48:58 > 0:49:01you start to realise that, subliminally, you're saying things all the time,

0:49:01 > 0:49:03with how you present women on the screen.

0:49:03 > 0:49:06And certainly, we know statistics for directors and writers,

0:49:06 > 0:49:08which are still extraordinarily low.

0:49:08 > 0:49:10Trevor, Trevor Phillips,

0:49:10 > 0:49:14how has television kept pace with the diversity in our society?

0:49:14 > 0:49:19I think the big change from some of the earlier stuff we saw is,

0:49:19 > 0:49:21ironically, in television, about visibility.

0:49:21 > 0:49:23When I was a kid,

0:49:23 > 0:49:26if ever there was a black person on television,

0:49:26 > 0:49:33somebody who was downstairs would shout upstairs, "Auntie, there's a black man on television!"

0:49:33 > 0:49:35And somebody would run down the street and say, black man!

0:49:35 > 0:49:37By the time everybody got to the television,

0:49:37 > 0:49:40he'd gone because he was only there for 15 seconds,

0:49:40 > 0:49:45but I think what is different now is that there isn't the same level

0:49:45 > 0:49:46kind of invisibility.

0:49:46 > 0:49:50And by the way, you know, the symbolic kiss that you referred to -

0:49:50 > 0:49:55bear in mind the first one that really caused a storm was the interracial kiss

0:49:55 > 0:49:57in Emergency Ward Ten,

0:49:57 > 0:50:01which was one of the dominant soaps of the 1960s.

0:50:01 > 0:50:08So I think what is different now is that kind of invisibility has

0:50:08 > 0:50:11lessened in some way.

0:50:11 > 0:50:15That doesn't necessarily mean that what we have now is in some way

0:50:15 > 0:50:18a representation of the nation as it really is

0:50:18 > 0:50:23because I think if you think about minority communities - I think it's also true about women -

0:50:23 > 0:50:28the picture we see of those groups of people is a picture that is viewed,

0:50:28 > 0:50:35frankly, largely from the eyes of a white, middle-class decision maker.

0:50:35 > 0:50:37So the people are there,

0:50:37 > 0:50:40but only in a way that is seen by people

0:50:40 > 0:50:42who aren't men or minorities.

0:50:42 > 0:50:47You said that you think that the most optimistic, heartening representation

0:50:47 > 0:50:51of diversity on television is in Big Brother and The Apprentice.

0:50:51 > 0:50:53Well, this point about visibility.

0:50:53 > 0:50:57You used the phrase, actually, in the package,

0:50:57 > 0:51:00of television being a window.

0:51:00 > 0:51:06Most people in this country do not know a person of a different colour

0:51:06 > 0:51:08well enough to have ever been in their house.

0:51:08 > 0:51:10That's just statistically the case.

0:51:11 > 0:51:16The way in which they will have seen what somebody like me behaves like

0:51:16 > 0:51:20at home will be through Wife Swap or in Big Brother.

0:51:20 > 0:51:24The first time and only time they'll have seen somebody or come close to

0:51:24 > 0:51:27somebody who's transgender is in Big Brother.

0:51:27 > 0:51:33So these are opportunities to provide a window into different people's lives.

0:51:33 > 0:51:35Can I go round the table very quickly?

0:51:35 > 0:51:39Do you think television is changing to becoming more radical now,

0:51:39 > 0:51:41or less, Ken?

0:51:41 > 0:51:46I think it's changing to be more compliant, much less radical.

0:51:46 > 0:51:47Trevor?

0:51:47 > 0:51:52No, I don't think so, but I do think that it is still rather blind.

0:51:52 > 0:51:56We don't see working-class social conservatives on TV.

0:51:56 > 0:51:59When we see Luther - nobody's more sexy than Idris Elba -

0:51:59 > 0:52:02but he's got no black friends or family.

0:52:02 > 0:52:05I mean, that's the view of somebody who's not like him.

0:52:05 > 0:52:09So, although there are more different kinds of people on the box,

0:52:09 > 0:52:11they aren't really like themselves still.

0:52:11 > 0:52:13And Abi?

0:52:13 > 0:52:16I'm kind of a believer in see it to be it, so actually,

0:52:16 > 0:52:18I think it's a kind of balance between, I agree,

0:52:18 > 0:52:20we still need to see more advances, but I think we're also at an age

0:52:20 > 0:52:22where there is so much television being

0:52:22 > 0:52:25made at the moment that I think it's being very conscious in the way we

0:52:25 > 0:52:27make it and how we present it.

0:52:27 > 0:52:30So, I think there's room to go.

0:52:30 > 0:52:32Well, thank you all very much indeed.

0:52:32 > 0:52:35Thanks to Ken Loach, Abi Morgan and Trevor Phillips.

0:52:35 > 0:52:37From its earliest days,

0:52:37 > 0:52:40television recognised and took seriously its role as a tribune of

0:52:40 > 0:52:43the people, even if its style of doing so at first would be scarcely

0:52:43 > 0:52:45recognisable today.

0:52:45 > 0:52:46Good morning, Mr Attlee.

0:52:46 > 0:52:48We hope you had a good journey.

0:52:48 > 0:52:51- Yes, excellent. - Can you - now you're back,

0:52:51 > 0:52:53having cut short your lecture tour -

0:52:53 > 0:52:56tell us something of how you view the election prospects?

0:52:56 > 0:52:58It's going to be a good fight.

0:53:00 > 0:53:02A very good chance of winning.

0:53:02 > 0:53:05Anything else you'd care to say about the coming election?

0:53:05 > 0:53:06No.

0:53:08 > 0:53:12While early interviewers treated our politicians with great deference,

0:53:12 > 0:53:13as television gained confidence,

0:53:13 > 0:53:16it began to establish itself as something of a scourge.

0:53:19 > 0:53:20Journalists like Bernard Levin

0:53:20 > 0:53:24introduced some of the irreverence for which he'd become known in the press.

0:53:24 > 0:53:26I'm talking about things that morality.

0:53:26 > 0:53:28- All right.- That's what you want to impose.

0:53:28 > 0:53:30That's one thing that cannot be done by statute.

0:53:30 > 0:53:35- I don't suppose you ever read things like this?- Yes, indeed I do, Sir Cyril. Yes, indeed.

0:53:35 > 0:53:38- Could you tell me what it is? - It's the criminal statistics. The annual one.- When was it published?

0:53:38 > 0:53:41- It's published every year.- When? - Now, please stop this silliness.

0:53:41 > 0:53:45If you want to make a silly point out of that, make it.

0:53:45 > 0:53:49And a new generation of interviewers was unafraid to confront senior

0:53:49 > 0:53:51- politicians.- You say it's typical.

0:53:51 > 0:53:54- Yes, I do.- You see you keep using words like typical as though there's

0:53:54 > 0:53:58millions of piles of excrement dropping through letterboxes

0:53:58 > 0:54:00up and down our green and pleasant land, to use your own phrase,

0:54:00 > 0:54:03and that's not happening. And it's not typical.

0:54:04 > 0:54:07So Mr Pym and Mr Pryor and Mr Whitelaw and Mr Walker

0:54:07 > 0:54:12- are not necessarily going to go?- You are going further than I wish to go.

0:54:12 > 0:54:15Well, naturally. That's part of my job, Prime Minister.

0:54:15 > 0:54:19Television has helped massively to introduce democracy to our system.

0:54:19 > 0:54:22Not least because we see the people, we can challenge them,

0:54:22 > 0:54:24and they are challenged on television by good interviewers.

0:54:24 > 0:54:29I have accounted for my decision to dismiss Derek Lewis...

0:54:29 > 0:54:31Did you threaten to overrule him?

0:54:31 > 0:54:33..in great detail before the House of Commons.

0:54:33 > 0:54:35I'm going to be frightfully rude.

0:54:35 > 0:54:38I'm sorry. It's a straight yes or no.

0:54:38 > 0:54:42- You can put the question and I will give you an answer.- It's a straight yes or no answer.

0:54:42 > 0:54:43Did you threaten to overrule him?

0:54:43 > 0:54:46And more than that, when we see them, we see their faces,

0:54:46 > 0:54:49we can tell, I think, whether they're lying or not.

0:54:49 > 0:54:52Television is a very good lie detector and, as we know,

0:54:52 > 0:54:55most of the information we get about people is from this

0:54:55 > 0:54:58and television fits this quite well.

0:54:58 > 0:55:01If it now falls to me to start a fight,

0:55:01 > 0:55:05to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country

0:55:05 > 0:55:12with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of traditional British fair play, so be it.

0:55:12 > 0:55:17Jonathan Aitken accused the media of lying but was subsequently found to

0:55:17 > 0:55:18have lied himself.

0:55:18 > 0:55:22He was sentenced to 18 months in prison for perjury.

0:55:23 > 0:55:25And it's not just professional interviewers

0:55:25 > 0:55:29who have been able to put our politicians through their paces.

0:55:29 > 0:55:32TV has also offered members of the public the occasional chance to

0:55:32 > 0:55:34confront those in power.

0:55:34 > 0:55:38When the Belgrano was sunk, it was a danger to our ships.

0:55:38 > 0:55:44Mrs Thatcher, I am saying that nobody with any imagination can put

0:55:44 > 0:55:46it sailing other than away from the Falklands.

0:55:46 > 0:55:51Mrs Gould, when the orders were given to sink it and when it was sunk,

0:55:51 > 0:55:55it was in an area which was a danger to our ships.

0:55:55 > 0:55:57Now, you accept that, do you?

0:55:57 > 0:56:00- No, I don't.- Well, I'm sorry.

0:56:00 > 0:56:06I think it could only be in Britain that a Prime Minister was accused of

0:56:06 > 0:56:09sinking an enemy ship that was a danger to our Navy.

0:56:15 > 0:56:18And our TV has ruffled the feathers of those in authority outside the

0:56:18 > 0:56:23studio too. Television drama has a long and honourable tradition of

0:56:23 > 0:56:25giving those in power sleepless nights.

0:56:27 > 0:56:29In 1965,

0:56:29 > 0:56:33Peter Watkins' The War Game looked at what life would really be like in

0:56:33 > 0:56:35the event of a nuclear attack.

0:56:36 > 0:56:42When the carbon monoxide content of inhaled air exceeds 1.28%,

0:56:42 > 0:56:47it will be followed by death within three minutes.

0:56:48 > 0:56:50This is nuclear war.

0:56:52 > 0:56:56It was a step too far for the Government of the day, when the threat seemed

0:56:56 > 0:57:00very real, and the film didn't actually air until 20 years later.

0:57:02 > 0:57:06Jesus, this place has been totally blown away.

0:57:06 > 0:57:10Clever writers and directors have used TV drama to bring to life

0:57:10 > 0:57:12the human stories behind the news headlines

0:57:12 > 0:57:15by creating characters we get to know and empathise with.

0:57:19 > 0:57:23Such was the impact of Peter Kosminsky's 1999 Warriors -

0:57:23 > 0:57:27the fictional story of traumatised peacekeeping troops in Bosnia -

0:57:27 > 0:57:32that fears were raised within the military that it might impact on Army recruitment drives.

0:57:32 > 0:57:35Get on board now!

0:57:36 > 0:57:38It was a great job you lads did out there.

0:57:38 > 0:57:40We're all really proud of you.

0:57:40 > 0:57:42You were heroes. All of you.

0:57:44 > 0:57:45Yeah. I think, erm...

0:57:47 > 0:57:48I think it was shite...

0:57:50 > 0:57:51..what we did.

0:57:53 > 0:57:55Leaving people to die.

0:57:57 > 0:58:01Jimmy McGovern's Hillsborough was accused of being trial by television

0:58:01 > 0:58:03when it told the story of the 1989 disaster

0:58:03 > 0:58:06from the point of view of the bereaved families.

0:58:09 > 0:58:10What's going on?

0:58:10 > 0:58:11Fans forced the gate.

0:58:13 > 0:58:15Fans forced their way in and that's the result.

0:58:17 > 0:58:19My lads went to a game of football...

0:58:21 > 0:58:23..and you brought them back home in a coffin.

0:58:24 > 0:58:28It was only last year that an official inquiry confirmed the account that

0:58:28 > 0:58:32McGovern's television play depicted 20 years earlier.

0:58:33 > 0:58:36In the world of investigative journalism,

0:58:36 > 0:58:39TV brought to attention crucial issues.

0:58:39 > 0:58:42It effected change as a raft of current-affairs programmes were developed

0:58:42 > 0:58:45that became a thorn in the Government's side.

0:58:47 > 0:58:50Reaching 13 million UK viewers at its peak,

0:58:50 > 0:58:54World In Action's campaigning style of journalism uncovered corruption

0:58:54 > 0:58:58and challenged governments with its mission to comfort the afflicted and

0:58:58 > 0:59:00afflict the comfortable.

0:59:00 > 0:59:04World In Action challenged Member of Parliament Matthew Paris to prove

0:59:04 > 0:59:07the Conservative claim that supplementary benefit is enough to live on.

0:59:08 > 0:59:12Cabinet ministers were questioned and so was the British judiciary.

0:59:13 > 0:59:16Bombs destroyed two crowded pubs in the heart of Birmingham.

0:59:16 > 0:59:1821 people died.

0:59:18 > 0:59:20162 were hurt.

0:59:20 > 0:59:23Its most celebrated investigation eventually proved the innocence and

0:59:23 > 0:59:26secured the release of the Birmingham Six,

0:59:26 > 0:59:30wrongly convicted of the 1974 Birmingham pub bombings.

0:59:32 > 0:59:36Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher described the people who made

0:59:36 > 0:59:38the series as "just a lot of Trotskyists".

0:59:41 > 0:59:44In 1988, an edition of Thames Television's This Week,

0:59:44 > 0:59:49Death On The Rock, became the subject of an independent inquiry.

0:59:49 > 0:59:54The killing by the SAS of three IRA terrorists in Gibraltar has provoked

0:59:54 > 0:59:55intense debate throughout the world.

0:59:56 > 0:59:58The programme presented evidence

0:59:58 > 1:00:00that the IRA members were shot without

1:00:00 > 1:00:03warning or while attempting to surrender.

1:00:03 > 1:00:07We have interviewed four key witnesses to the shootings.

1:00:07 > 1:00:12Their accounts raise serious questions about what really happened that afternoon.

1:00:12 > 1:00:16Much to the fury of the Government, and despite attempts to discredit it,

1:00:16 > 1:00:18Death On The Rock was vindicated in the inquiry.

1:00:20 > 1:00:23But investigative journalism, documentaries and one-to-one

1:00:23 > 1:00:26interviews aren't the only way that we have

1:00:26 > 1:00:29jolted authority and pricked pomposity in television.

1:00:29 > 1:00:32Another has been straightforward abuse.

1:00:32 > 1:00:36Satire, comedy and comments from its perpetrators which would have sent

1:00:36 > 1:00:39them to jail or got them shot in other countries.

1:00:41 > 1:00:43Would you like to order, sir?

1:00:43 > 1:00:45Yes. I will have a steak.

1:00:45 > 1:00:47- How do you like it?- Oh, raw, please.

1:00:47 > 1:00:49And what about the vegetables?

1:00:49 > 1:00:51Oh, they'll have the same as me.

1:00:53 > 1:00:55# That was the week that was

1:00:55 > 1:00:57# Politicians on the rack... #

1:00:57 > 1:01:00In 1962,

1:01:00 > 1:01:03That Was The Week That Was pushed the boundaries in a way never seen

1:01:03 > 1:01:04before.

1:01:04 > 1:01:07The programme survived for just 13 months,

1:01:07 > 1:01:11before being pulled off the nation's screens in December 1963 for fear it

1:01:11 > 1:01:15could comprise the BBC's impartiality with the impending election.

1:01:17 > 1:01:21And so there is the choice between the electorate and for the electorate.

1:01:21 > 1:01:26On the one hand, Lord Hume, and on the other hand, Mr Harold Wilson.

1:01:27 > 1:01:30Dull Alec versus Smart Alec.

1:01:30 > 1:01:31Goodnight.

1:01:35 > 1:01:38Yes Minister held the workings of government up to ridicule,

1:01:38 > 1:01:42including a particularly revealing early insight into our relationship

1:01:42 > 1:01:43with the European Union.

1:01:43 > 1:01:47We had to break the whole thing up, so we had to get inside.

1:01:47 > 1:01:50We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work.

1:01:50 > 1:01:54Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing.

1:01:54 > 1:01:58Set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians,

1:01:58 > 1:02:00the Italians against the Dutch.

1:02:00 > 1:02:03The Foreign Office is terribly pleased.

1:02:03 > 1:02:04It's just like old times.

1:02:07 > 1:02:10Spitting Image showed how making authority figures into grotesque

1:02:10 > 1:02:13celebrities could better hold them to account.

1:02:14 > 1:02:16So, tell me, Mr Pillock.

1:02:16 > 1:02:19- Er, Kinnock.- Kinnock, yes, what is it you do exactly?

1:02:19 > 1:02:21I'm the leader of the Labour Party in Britain.

1:02:21 > 1:02:24In my country we don't have a political opposition.

1:02:24 > 1:02:25No, nor do we.

1:02:28 > 1:02:31And with New Labour came new satire.

1:02:32 > 1:02:34Preparing for tomorrow's enquiry,

1:02:34 > 1:02:36I thought I'd have a look at some of the old speeches I did.

1:02:37 > 1:02:39I mean, this is a great one.

1:02:39 > 1:02:42Listen to this. "Mine is the first generation able to contemplate the

1:02:42 > 1:02:46"possibility that we may live our entire lives without going to war,

1:02:46 > 1:02:48"or sending our children to war."

1:02:49 > 1:02:52Crikey. What was I thinking of?

1:02:53 > 1:02:56Ed. Get Tom Rudd in, now. We're offering him Northern Ireland,

1:02:56 > 1:02:59- the lucky sod.- Armando Iannucci's The Thick Of It

1:02:59 > 1:03:01also found New Labour fertile territory.

1:03:01 > 1:03:02Remtard Remington.

1:03:02 > 1:03:05I mean, the guy is an epic fuck-up.

1:03:05 > 1:03:08He is so dense that light bends around him.

1:03:08 > 1:03:12His savage parody of a spin doctor based on Alastair Campbell resulted

1:03:12 > 1:03:16in a brand-new word making its way into the Oxford dictionary.

1:03:16 > 1:03:20Jesus Christ, see you, you are the fucking omnishambles,

1:03:20 > 1:03:21that's what you are.

1:03:22 > 1:03:26Today's media-trained politicians are adept at handling television,

1:03:26 > 1:03:31even embracing satire in the hope of appearing less pompous.

1:03:31 > 1:03:34David Cameron was very rude about your people, wasn't he, Nigel?

1:03:34 > 1:03:35- Oh, he always is.- Yes, he said...

1:03:35 > 1:03:39- He can't help himself.- He can't help himself.- Fruitcakes. - Fruitcakes and loonies.

1:03:39 > 1:03:41- And loonies, and worse. He said worse than that.- He did.

1:03:43 > 1:03:45I think it's time for a game of Fruitcake or Loony?

1:03:50 > 1:03:54Has this meant it's become harder to challenge authority?

1:03:54 > 1:03:56Or are the political landscape and those who inhabit it

1:03:56 > 1:03:59so extraordinary that they are beyond a joke?

1:04:03 > 1:04:06So, how successful or otherwise has television been

1:04:06 > 1:04:08in holding our leaders to account?

1:04:08 > 1:04:12With me to discuss this are the man credited with changing

1:04:12 > 1:04:14the face of TV comedy with shows like Spitting Image

1:04:14 > 1:04:17and Not The Nine O'Clock News, John Lloyd.

1:04:17 > 1:04:20A former Shadow Chancellor turned dancing sensation, Ed Balls.

1:04:20 > 1:04:25And presenter of Radio Four's The World At One and former political editor

1:04:25 > 1:04:27of BBC Two's Newsnight Martha Kearney.

1:04:27 > 1:04:32Ed, why do you think politicians fear to be interviewed

1:04:32 > 1:04:35and are given such a hard time?

1:04:35 > 1:04:41I think if you go into an interview, you are expecting these days

1:04:41 > 1:04:46to have a very well-prepared interviewer,

1:04:46 > 1:04:49who has the most difficult questions,

1:04:49 > 1:04:52and they're not going to let you get away with not answering the question,

1:04:52 > 1:04:57because the public now are very, I think, educated about evasion and

1:04:57 > 1:04:58they can smell it a mile off,

1:04:58 > 1:05:02and sometimes as a politician it's hard to give a straight answer,

1:05:02 > 1:05:06and the worst place you want to be is evading and twisting and knowing

1:05:06 > 1:05:09that you're not being straight with the interviewer,

1:05:09 > 1:05:13because that's disrespectful and the public at home see that and don't

1:05:13 > 1:05:19like it, and so you always have to be on your mettle and ready for that tough question.

1:05:19 > 1:05:21Do you look back with envy at the time when Clement Attlee

1:05:21 > 1:05:24could just say "no", and the interviewer would shut up?

1:05:24 > 1:05:28It's a funny thing, though, because as a politician you become skilled

1:05:28 > 1:05:32at answering the difficult questions and preparing.

1:05:32 > 1:05:35In some ways, the moments that I found hardest -

1:05:35 > 1:05:37which didn't happen that often -

1:05:37 > 1:05:40would be when you were on the Today programme or on The World At One and

1:05:40 > 1:05:44the first question would be, "So, what have you got to say?"

1:05:44 > 1:05:46And you would think...

1:05:46 > 1:05:48I'm ready for the hard question,

1:05:48 > 1:05:51but you just want me to summarise my point in 20 seconds?

1:05:51 > 1:05:56And I think what happened over time was that the interviewers knew that

1:05:56 > 1:06:00simply doing the tough questions can get a bit boring and sterile and

1:06:00 > 1:06:03sometimes the hardest interviews are the ones where...

1:06:03 > 1:06:07In some ways, David Frost was a past master at this, but in more recent

1:06:07 > 1:06:11times, the interviewer who beguiles you into making a mistake or a slip,

1:06:11 > 1:06:13not by being tough and interrogating,

1:06:13 > 1:06:16but giving you the space to trip yourself up.

1:06:16 > 1:06:20Martha, it seems to me, I know a lot of good journalists and so do you,

1:06:20 > 1:06:22and good politicians.

1:06:22 > 1:06:26Why do they seem to be at each other's throats so often and giving

1:06:26 > 1:06:27both sides such a bad name?

1:06:29 > 1:06:31I think it's the way that society has changed.

1:06:31 > 1:06:33I loved seeing that Clem Attlee interview,

1:06:33 > 1:06:35and I'm sure you'd love it if I said,

1:06:35 > 1:06:38"Is there anything more you'd like to say about the coming election?"

1:06:38 > 1:06:40- My worst nightmare. - We'll try that out one day.

1:06:40 > 1:06:45But I think you saw through those clips the way that society itself

1:06:45 > 1:06:51has become more challenging towards figures in authority and I think voters now expect us to do that.

1:06:51 > 1:06:54And it's quite interesting, when I'm doing interviews I will often have

1:06:54 > 1:06:58a Twitter feed now, and there will be people saying, they are not answering you,

1:06:58 > 1:07:00and they are egging you on to challenge politicians.

1:07:00 > 1:07:04Clearly, there's a balance because we wouldn't want to encourage too

1:07:04 > 1:07:07much cynicism but, on the other hand,

1:07:07 > 1:07:10it is part of our democracy to be able to challenge figures in authority.

1:07:10 > 1:07:13Yeah, but to come back to the question, why do you think...

1:07:13 > 1:07:15Am I not answering your question?

1:07:15 > 1:07:17I apologise. That would be hypocrisy.

1:07:17 > 1:07:20Why do you think in polls journalists and politicians...

1:07:20 > 1:07:22We have known a lot of good ones...

1:07:22 > 1:07:24Why are they so low down the list?

1:07:24 > 1:07:29Why does the general public think they don't want to have much to do with that lot? And the other lot?

1:07:29 > 1:07:34I think that's because of the way people's attitudes towards authority

1:07:34 > 1:07:38have changed and journalists and broadcasters are seen as being part of the establishment

1:07:38 > 1:07:41in the same way that politicians are,

1:07:41 > 1:07:44and I think that's why it's so interesting the world we're

1:07:44 > 1:07:48living in at the moment, with the growth of social media, which means that people -

1:07:48 > 1:07:50both politicians and members of the public -

1:07:50 > 1:07:54can bypass broadcasters and talk directly to each other,

1:07:54 > 1:07:56which presents a real challenge for broadcasters.

1:07:56 > 1:08:00In that last clump of film I used the words "television is a lie detector",

1:08:00 > 1:08:04which is a phrase of Pauline Kael in the New Yorker, saying...

1:08:04 > 1:08:06Do you think that's true?

1:08:06 > 1:08:10I think that's true. The most famous example of that is the Nixon Kennedy

1:08:10 > 1:08:14debates, where people thought that Nixon won on the radio but lost on

1:08:14 > 1:08:19the television because of the way he looked, the way he was sweating under pressure.

1:08:19 > 1:08:22And I think you can see that and I think one of the great weapons of

1:08:22 > 1:08:27television is the knowing pause or knowing when people are stumbling

1:08:27 > 1:08:31and I think people are very discerning about the micro-facial analysis, if you like.

1:08:31 > 1:08:34They do know when people are dissembling in some way.

1:08:34 > 1:08:39What about if politicians can't answer the question as swiftly and

1:08:39 > 1:08:40as concisely as you want?

1:08:40 > 1:08:43You've only got two minutes left of the interview.

1:08:43 > 1:08:46What about that? Do you not feel maybe it's the wrong question or maybe we

1:08:46 > 1:08:49should say, you're not going to answer that because it's going to take five paragraphs

1:08:49 > 1:08:51and we've only got time for two sentences?

1:08:51 > 1:08:55As you know, you will have somebody in your ear telling you.

1:08:55 > 1:08:58There will be points - it is interesting what Ed was saying.

1:08:58 > 1:09:02There will be points when politicians have to lie for the sake

1:09:02 > 1:09:05of Parliamentary democracy, which sounds like a paradox,

1:09:05 > 1:09:09but it's because Ed Balls will not agree with absolutely everything

1:09:09 > 1:09:12that other members of the Cabinet or Shadow Cabinet are saying

1:09:12 > 1:09:17but in order to keep party unity or a collective responsibility he has to toe the party line.

1:09:17 > 1:09:19On the other hand,

1:09:19 > 1:09:23we know as journalists there are divisions within politics and it is

1:09:23 > 1:09:25our duty to expose it,

1:09:25 > 1:09:29so you will ask a question a number of times in order to show to

1:09:29 > 1:09:32the audience, hang on, there's a problem here.

1:09:32 > 1:09:35Which is what Jeremy Paxman did, of course, with Michael Howard.

1:09:35 > 1:09:38John Lloyd, Spitting Image, you turned that into a political programme.

1:09:38 > 1:09:42Why did it have such an impact when actually it was an attack dog all

1:09:42 > 1:09:45the time? Can you unravel that?

1:09:45 > 1:09:49I think one of the things was a lot had been said about insiders and

1:09:49 > 1:09:51outsiders and we were all...

1:09:51 > 1:09:54I wasn't so much, but all the team were outsiders.

1:09:54 > 1:09:57Obviously the puppets had never been on television before.

1:09:57 > 1:10:02But most of the writers hadn't worked for television very much and the puppeteers certainly hadn't.

1:10:02 > 1:10:06So there was a sense when it first arrived that it was like...

1:10:06 > 1:10:10I remember being quite shocked by people's reaction to it.

1:10:10 > 1:10:15Generally rather anti, because it appeared so ugly and so strange.

1:10:15 > 1:10:18It was a bit like when The Young Ones arrived or when Big Brother arrived

1:10:18 > 1:10:21or some of the programmes you have mentioned when you are seeing people

1:10:21 > 1:10:23on television you have never seen before,

1:10:23 > 1:10:26and Spitting Image offered opinions that weren't...

1:10:26 > 1:10:30In the pubs, you would hear them but you wouldn't hear them on a more

1:10:30 > 1:10:32genteel comedy show.

1:10:32 > 1:10:34It was the most tremendous success.

1:10:34 > 1:10:3713 million, we're talking about light entertainment programmes....

1:10:37 > 1:10:3815 million, actually.

1:10:38 > 1:10:40I'm awfully sorry!

1:10:40 > 1:10:44- Sorry about the insult.- It was 1.5 million more people every week than

1:10:44 > 1:10:48it had taken to re-elect the Thatcher administration in 1983, as it happens.

1:10:48 > 1:10:50Trust you to know that!

1:10:51 > 1:10:54So, why do you think it did have that big appeal, that it had appeal

1:10:54 > 1:10:58to three or four million, a niche, but not mass appeal?

1:10:58 > 1:11:02I am at a loss to say why, Melvyn, because we were in the third series,

1:11:02 > 1:11:04the last one I produced, in 1986,

1:11:04 > 1:11:07we got to number three in the ratings and I thought we must be

1:11:07 > 1:11:09doing something wrong if it's that popular,

1:11:09 > 1:11:13but I think it's when you are speaking the unspoken.

1:11:13 > 1:11:16The reaction of the audience here in the studio is interesting.

1:11:16 > 1:11:21Political issues that get people then, as now, very riled up and angry,

1:11:21 > 1:11:23when people are laughing about it,

1:11:23 > 1:11:28the issues are being aired and talked about but in a much friendlier, jollier way.

1:11:28 > 1:11:32I think most politicians - maybe Ed would bear me out -

1:11:32 > 1:11:36most politicians miss Spitting Image because of the fact that people were

1:11:36 > 1:11:37much better known.

1:11:38 > 1:11:41The average 13-year-old could easily have named ten members of

1:11:41 > 1:11:45Mrs Thatcher's Cabinet and four members of the Shadow Cabinet without thinking

1:11:45 > 1:11:47about it, which has not been possible since.

1:11:47 > 1:11:50Was there a chance by lampooning people, attacking them in such a way,

1:11:50 > 1:11:53- you were increasing their popularity?- Yes.

1:11:53 > 1:11:55- What do you think about that? - I think that's...

1:11:55 > 1:11:57Yes, correct.

1:11:57 > 1:12:02I think it's absolutely true that in fact the tougher the politician

1:12:02 > 1:12:05the more we portrayed them as a tough person,

1:12:05 > 1:12:06the more they liked it.

1:12:06 > 1:12:11Classically, with David Owen, who was always terribly smooth...

1:12:11 > 1:12:14David Steel was a tiny little fella like that...

1:12:14 > 1:12:18David Steel was always very upset about it and David Owen thought it

1:12:18 > 1:12:21- was marvellous.- David Steel actually thought it damaged him because you put

1:12:21 > 1:12:24him in David Owen's pocket and I remember interviewing David Steel

1:12:24 > 1:12:29about that and he thought in the '87 election it had a damaging effect.

1:12:29 > 1:12:31"It's totally unfair, I'm half an inch taller than Neil Kinnock."

1:12:33 > 1:12:36I think the great thing about our society, over the centuries,

1:12:36 > 1:12:41is we have always had a disrespect about people being too pompous and

1:12:41 > 1:12:43we've always wanted to use humour.

1:12:43 > 1:12:46If you think back to Passport To Pimlico,

1:12:46 > 1:12:50that was a real attack on the establishment politicians in the late 1940s.

1:12:50 > 1:12:54In some ways, what was interesting is that political interviewing took

1:12:54 > 1:12:57time to catch up with the public's interest in humour and tough questions.

1:12:57 > 1:13:01The only thing I would say which I disagree on is that I don't

1:13:01 > 1:13:05think Spitting Image would now be made in the same way.

1:13:05 > 1:13:08The fact is that David Steel was short, it wasn't his fault,

1:13:08 > 1:13:11and Roy Hattersley had a speech impediment that wasn't his fault.

1:13:11 > 1:13:15If I had been on Spitting Image they would have had me with a stammer, and that wasn't my fault.

1:13:15 > 1:13:18And I think, at times, it kind of pushed up against the edge.

1:13:18 > 1:13:21Thank you, Ed. Thanks, John Lloyd, Martha Kearney and Ed Balls.

1:13:21 > 1:13:25On we go. If television has made it harder for governments to conceal

1:13:25 > 1:13:27their own activities from public scrutiny,

1:13:27 > 1:13:31it has also made it near impossible for them to hide other aspects of

1:13:31 > 1:13:34the wider world which some might prefer us not to see.

1:13:34 > 1:13:36In the earliest days, cameras were big,

1:13:36 > 1:13:39cumbersome things which could only be used in the studio or a controlled environment

1:13:39 > 1:13:42and even when the news camera became light enough to be

1:13:42 > 1:13:46portable, shooting on film brought limitations and delays.

1:13:46 > 1:13:48Now everyone can be a camera.

1:13:52 > 1:13:55Pathe newsreels like this one were the precursors to TV news

1:13:55 > 1:13:59reporting and the limitations of early technology gave time and

1:13:59 > 1:14:03opportunity for the authorities to predigest news and then relay it to

1:14:03 > 1:14:06the audience complete with the spin that suited them.

1:14:07 > 1:14:11There was to be no question that the retreat from Dunkirk could be

1:14:11 > 1:14:14presented to the public as a defeat.

1:14:14 > 1:14:16They're worn out and footsore, they're hungry,

1:14:16 > 1:14:19for weeks they have been shelled and bombed from three sides,

1:14:19 > 1:14:21they had to stagger back to the sea to survive.

1:14:21 > 1:14:25Round these men there hangs an atmosphere of glory.

1:14:26 > 1:14:29But even under military control,

1:14:29 > 1:14:31TV reporters and cameras in war zones

1:14:31 > 1:14:33was soon proving to be a menace for

1:14:33 > 1:14:36the generals and politicians who needed public support for their policies.

1:14:38 > 1:14:42Still, today, the US military believes that the Vietnam War was lost in

1:14:42 > 1:14:45the living rooms of America as, night after night,

1:14:45 > 1:14:49the sight of body-bags bringing home dead GIs sickened the public and

1:14:49 > 1:14:52created irresistible pressure to end the conflict.

1:14:55 > 1:14:58The lesson was well learned in Britain in the Falklands War when

1:14:58 > 1:15:01the price of a ticket onboard an aircraft carrier taking servicemen

1:15:01 > 1:15:04into battle was to submit reports for censorship.

1:15:05 > 1:15:09I'm not allowed to say how many planes joined the raid but I counted

1:15:09 > 1:15:11them all out and I counted them all back.

1:15:11 > 1:15:14Their pilots were unhurt, tearful and jubilant,

1:15:14 > 1:15:16giving thumbs-up signs.

1:15:17 > 1:15:20Reporting the first shooting war since 1945,

1:15:20 > 1:15:24broadcasters had to feel their way on how to pitch their coverage.

1:15:25 > 1:15:30Peter Snow caused an uproar when he referred to "the British" rather than "we".

1:15:30 > 1:15:33There is a stage in the coverage of any conflict where you can begin

1:15:33 > 1:15:37to discern the level of accuracy of the claims and counterclaims

1:15:37 > 1:15:40of either side. Well, now, tonight, after two days,

1:15:40 > 1:15:44it must be said that we cannot demonstrate that the British have lied to us so far.

1:15:44 > 1:15:48There are occasions when some commentators will say,

1:15:48 > 1:15:50"If the Argentines did something" and then

1:15:50 > 1:15:51"the British did something",

1:15:51 > 1:15:53I can only say that if this is so,

1:15:53 > 1:15:59it does give offence and cause great emotion among many, many people.

1:15:59 > 1:16:00Hear, hear!

1:16:01 > 1:16:06More recently, the practice of embedding reporters with the military has

1:16:06 > 1:16:09inevitably involved submitting to an element of control.

1:16:09 > 1:16:11It's a journalist's dilemma -

1:16:11 > 1:16:13either stay at home or go with the military

1:16:13 > 1:16:16and see what they want you to see.

1:16:16 > 1:16:19We're headed along the banks of the banks of the Tigris River,

1:16:19 > 1:16:21pursuing pockets of resistance,

1:16:21 > 1:16:24involving members of the Republican Guard, and all the time

1:16:24 > 1:16:26closing in on the capital, Baghdad.

1:16:29 > 1:16:33But more and more often, lightweight cameras and mobile transmitters have

1:16:33 > 1:16:37allowed TV reporters to break away from military control and tell

1:16:37 > 1:16:40the story right where and when it is happening.

1:16:40 > 1:16:44After hours of shooting and facing a line of troops,

1:16:44 > 1:16:46the crowd is still here -

1:16:46 > 1:16:49they're shouting, "Stop the killing!"

1:16:49 > 1:16:51and "Down with the government!"

1:16:51 > 1:16:53And even more irritating for the authorities,

1:16:53 > 1:16:57is when a reporter not only makes his own way into a conflict zone,

1:16:57 > 1:17:01but then shows us first-hand evidence that what the authorities

1:17:01 > 1:17:04are telling us isn't quite the case.

1:17:04 > 1:17:07It's a very surreal situation here in Baghdad.

1:17:07 > 1:17:09We've heard those reports of American columns

1:17:09 > 1:17:11penetrating into the centre

1:17:11 > 1:17:14of the city. I've been around Baghdad to its outskirts,

1:17:14 > 1:17:15trying to find them.

1:17:17 > 1:17:21We drove around the Iraqi capital for well over an hour,

1:17:21 > 1:17:23with no sign of coalition forces.

1:17:26 > 1:17:30Undoubtedly the most profound development in war coverage has

1:17:30 > 1:17:33been TV's ability to report live and in real time.

1:17:35 > 1:17:38As Allied forces pounded Saddam Hussein's Iraq

1:17:38 > 1:17:41in the Gulf wars of 1991 and 2003,

1:17:41 > 1:17:44a worldwide audience of more than a billion people

1:17:44 > 1:17:47watched images obtained from camera-equipped hi-tech weaponry.

1:17:48 > 1:17:51We saw what those firing the rockets saw.

1:17:54 > 1:17:57But some feared that the Star Wars-type coverage -

1:17:57 > 1:18:00feeling more like an advanced video game than real-life -

1:18:00 > 1:18:03distanced us from the real effects of war.

1:18:05 > 1:18:08But live reporting hasn't all been up in the air.

1:18:08 > 1:18:14Very much down on the ground in reporting the Libyan uprising in 2011,

1:18:14 > 1:18:16Sky News's Alex Crawford and her crew

1:18:16 > 1:18:18rode into Tripoli on the back of a rebel pick-up truck

1:18:18 > 1:18:22with the vehicle's cigarette lighter socket powering

1:18:22 > 1:18:26the satellite link to send back this extraordinarily live coverage.

1:18:26 > 1:18:30They feel liberated... That's water being thrown, they do

1:18:30 > 1:18:32that in celebration, as well.

1:18:32 > 1:18:36And are fireworks being lit, guns going off

1:18:36 > 1:18:40everywhere, it's an absolutely amazing sight.

1:18:41 > 1:18:44Day after day, brave war correspondents risk their lives to bring us

1:18:44 > 1:18:47their take on the ugly reality they witness.

1:18:47 > 1:18:52And they do it 24 hours a day to feed the voracious appetites of the rolling news channels

1:18:52 > 1:18:56which do their best to tell us about the world we live in.

1:18:59 > 1:19:02But more often than not it's been left to longer-form reporting and

1:19:02 > 1:19:05documentaries to bring home the real horror from war and disasters and

1:19:05 > 1:19:09put them into a context which will help us understand.

1:19:09 > 1:19:14Michael Buerk's 1984 reports from the Ethiopian famine resonate now

1:19:14 > 1:19:18just as effectively as they did 33 years ago.

1:19:18 > 1:19:22Dawn, and as the sun breaks through the piercing chill of night on

1:19:22 > 1:19:26the plain outside Korem, it lights up a biblical famine.

1:19:26 > 1:19:28Now, in the 20th century.

1:19:29 > 1:19:34This place, say workers here, is the closest thing to hell on earth.

1:19:34 > 1:19:38Ethiopia is turning into the worst human disaster for a decade -

1:19:38 > 1:19:41a disaster begun by nature but compounded by man.

1:19:45 > 1:19:49The power of documentary to delve deeply into the truth behind the daily news headlines

1:19:49 > 1:19:54was brilliantly illustrated in Angus McQueen's 1995

1:19:54 > 1:19:56Death Of Yugoslavia,

1:19:56 > 1:19:59which not only offered a complex overview of an unfolding tragedy,

1:19:59 > 1:20:04but also provided clear evidence of a war crime as it unfolded.

1:20:04 > 1:20:10Milosovic sent the Bosnian Serbs a new general to run their army - Ratko Mladic.

1:20:10 > 1:20:12This is what he ordered for Sarajevo.

1:20:50 > 1:20:54Meanwhile, Fergal Keane's devastating Panorama from Rwanda

1:20:54 > 1:20:56in 1994, Journey Into Darkness,

1:20:56 > 1:20:59practically forced us to watch the almost unwatchable.

1:21:01 > 1:21:04It brought home for the first time the full horror of that country's

1:21:04 > 1:21:06tragic civil war.

1:21:07 > 1:21:09The victims, all of them Tutsis,

1:21:09 > 1:21:12had gone to the church in search of sanctuary.

1:21:12 > 1:21:15Instead, the house of God became a killing ground.

1:21:18 > 1:21:22Such catastrophes are all too common around our shrinking planet

1:21:22 > 1:21:25and, worryingly, many of us are in danger of what is called compassion

1:21:25 > 1:21:28fatigue, or just a feeling of helplessness.

1:21:29 > 1:21:33And ironically, where pictures of mass disaster are increasingly

1:21:33 > 1:21:36commonplace, sometimes it takes a simple story

1:21:36 > 1:21:39of a single small child to move us to tears.

1:21:41 > 1:21:45How has the unprecedented access to world news that we have enjoyed over

1:21:45 > 1:21:47the last 60 years affected us?

1:21:47 > 1:21:49Do we now see ourselves as global citizens,

1:21:49 > 1:21:52with a responsibility for all our fellow humans?

1:21:52 > 1:21:56Or have we become too crushed by too much news, too weary?

1:21:56 > 1:22:00Joining me to discuss this are the BBC's chief international correspondent,

1:22:00 > 1:22:04Lyse Doucet, special correspondent for Sky News Alex Crawford,

1:22:04 > 1:22:08and former director of global news at the BBC Richard Sambrook.

1:22:08 > 1:22:12Lyse Doucet, as a reporter in some of the worst war zone areas -

1:22:12 > 1:22:15and I've listened to you an awful lot - erm, this phrase,

1:22:15 > 1:22:17compassion fatigue, you must -

1:22:17 > 1:22:20of course you are more aware of it than anyone else

1:22:20 > 1:22:21but do you feel it is

1:22:21 > 1:22:24something you have to be aware of when you're reporting?

1:22:25 > 1:22:28It's not something that I think about.

1:22:28 > 1:22:30I don't think Alex or any of us think about it.

1:22:30 > 1:22:36But we do think about our responsibility to convey the enormity and

1:22:36 > 1:22:39sometimes the horror of what we have seen,

1:22:39 > 1:22:44and to do it in a way which clarifies and leads people to care about it.

1:22:44 > 1:22:47And that imposes a special responsibility,

1:22:47 > 1:22:51because it means not showing emotion but showing empathy, I believe.

1:22:51 > 1:22:56Trying to stand in the shoes of people that no-one here today would

1:22:56 > 1:22:59ever want to stand in and to convey that to people.

1:22:59 > 1:23:02But it is true that the world now, if you look around the world -

1:23:02 > 1:23:06although a social scientist may say the world is a more peaceful place -

1:23:06 > 1:23:10the wars of our time are among the most brutal wars I think we have seen.

1:23:10 > 1:23:14Syria, Yemen, these are wars in which war crimes -

1:23:14 > 1:23:17alleged war crimes - are being committed on an almost daily basis.

1:23:17 > 1:23:18And it shows up...

1:23:19 > 1:23:26..less the compassion of the world but the incapacity of world leaders to do something about it.

1:23:26 > 1:23:30And it's, how do you connect the images which break through

1:23:30 > 1:23:32with the leadership who

1:23:32 > 1:23:37can do something about it if they really wanted to?

1:23:37 > 1:23:42But interests sometimes, and often, are put in front of...

1:23:42 > 1:23:47of real efforts to try to work together to solve the world's problems.

1:23:47 > 1:23:50You're in this particular area of mayhem, it's terrible.

1:23:50 > 1:23:52Do you have...

1:23:52 > 1:23:54Maybe this is a crude question.

1:23:54 > 1:23:57- If you think it is, don't answer it. - That's OK. Crude questions.

1:23:57 > 1:23:59But do you have a way to get into that, think,

1:23:59 > 1:24:03"The way I can really report that is to go to that house, to that child,

1:24:03 > 1:24:06"or to stand back and look at that crowd rushing down a street"?

1:24:06 > 1:24:09Are there ways of doing it or do you have to take what comes along and

1:24:09 > 1:24:10hits you in the face?

1:24:11 > 1:24:17In going time and again to Syria, which is truly a war of our time,

1:24:17 > 1:24:21it is arguably the most complex, the most consequential,

1:24:21 > 1:24:23the most complex war of our time,

1:24:23 > 1:24:27a war which is no longer about Syria because Syria is now not out there,

1:24:27 > 1:24:30Syria is down the street, in our home, in our schools,

1:24:30 > 1:24:32it's part of our lives.

1:24:32 > 1:24:35And the only way that I can make sense of it and the only way that I

1:24:35 > 1:24:40can convey to people what they must try to understand about it is to

1:24:40 > 1:24:44look at it not as a big geopolitical story but to drill it down to the essential,

1:24:44 > 1:24:49which is a story about mothers, fathers, children, neighbours, society.

1:24:49 > 1:24:52You know, when I come back to London, I think,

1:24:52 > 1:24:55"What if my entire street was now ruins?

1:24:55 > 1:24:59"What if everything I've held dear to me - both people and places -

1:24:59 > 1:25:03"all of my stored memories, were now in ruin, forcing me to flee?

1:25:03 > 1:25:05"How do I begin to convey this to people,

1:25:05 > 1:25:08"to understand the enormity of what others have to go through?"

1:25:08 > 1:25:13So, essentially, I see it as a human story because the politics are so

1:25:13 > 1:25:14divisive that I...

1:25:14 > 1:25:18This is how I believe that both I can understand it and get other

1:25:18 > 1:25:21people to think that's how they can begin to...

1:25:21 > 1:25:23to relate to it in any way at all.

1:25:23 > 1:25:27Alex, we saw you on the film, there, in the...

1:25:28 > 1:25:31Cigarette lighter in the truck, getting the pictures back.

1:25:31 > 1:25:32Your report was extraordinary.

1:25:32 > 1:25:37And we are in a stage now where you can do it, you can be instant.

1:25:37 > 1:25:40Erm, is there a sense...

1:25:40 > 1:25:42Is that... Is that a help for you all the time?

1:25:42 > 1:25:44Or can it be confusing?

1:25:44 > 1:25:47Can the instant be confused with the interesting?

1:25:47 > 1:25:50I definitely don't think it's a help all the time, definitely not.

1:25:50 > 1:25:52But if you're reporting on key,

1:25:52 > 1:25:55seismic events like that one was -

1:25:55 > 1:25:59because if you remember, at that stage, Colonel Gaddafi was still

1:25:59 > 1:26:01saying, "We're in control everywhere."

1:26:01 > 1:26:03Even the next day,

1:26:03 > 1:26:06he was saying he was in control and his sons were saying that.

1:26:06 > 1:26:10So, at that particular moment - and there are several of them -

1:26:10 > 1:26:15that had a seismic effect because it completely contradicted the lie that

1:26:15 > 1:26:16was being perpetuated.

1:26:16 > 1:26:21And if we hadn't been there, then the lie would have continued.

1:26:21 > 1:26:24So I think that was quite crucial.

1:26:24 > 1:26:26But is it a help all the time?

1:26:26 > 1:26:30Definitely not, because sometimes you do need to breathe and take...

1:26:30 > 1:26:33take in what's going on and, erm...

1:26:33 > 1:26:37If it's... If events are going so fast, it's quite hard to do that.

1:26:37 > 1:26:43However, we are not... We are not competing against the BBC or ITN any more.

1:26:43 > 1:26:47We're competing against the person who is next door to us with a mobile

1:26:47 > 1:26:52phone. So if you want to present - as most journalists do -

1:26:52 > 1:26:56the accurate and the honest depiction of what's going on,

1:26:56 > 1:27:02then you have to be mindful that someone else who's not trained

1:27:02 > 1:27:03and not got the same motivation

1:27:03 > 1:27:07might be putting out something that's going to be misconstrued.

1:27:07 > 1:27:10Richard, Richard Sambrook, you remember a time when big,

1:27:10 > 1:27:13bulky cameras, long time, put it on a plane, take it back to London,

1:27:13 > 1:27:16take a week... Did that have any advantages,

1:27:16 > 1:27:18the stuff taking so long to get back?

1:27:18 > 1:27:20I'm not talking just to the politicians.

1:27:20 > 1:27:23Did it have advantages to editors of programmes and so forth?

1:27:23 > 1:27:25Is it good that it's dead and gone?

1:27:25 > 1:27:28Erm, I think it did have some advantages and, interestingly,

1:27:28 > 1:27:31the video there, you looked at Michael Buerk's

1:27:31 > 1:27:33Ethiopia report in 1984.

1:27:33 > 1:27:36Now, the point about that was that rather than cut it in the field and

1:27:36 > 1:27:39satellite it back, because it was earlier than that, erm,

1:27:39 > 1:27:43Michael Buerk had to fly back overnight with the tapes and he spent about

1:27:43 > 1:27:46two days going through the tapes and putting it together with that

1:27:46 > 1:27:50extraordinary script and the BBC decided to cut what at the time was

1:27:50 > 1:27:53very unusual, a ten-minute piece, and lead the news on it.

1:27:53 > 1:27:56Now, today, you would have had a satellite dish and you would have

1:27:56 > 1:28:00had a quick hit and you'd have had live updates and it would have been a very

1:28:00 > 1:28:03different kind of experience and I doubt it would have had quite the same impact.

1:28:03 > 1:28:06That was very much of its time in all sorts of ways but it was

1:28:06 > 1:28:09because the production and the thought that went into it took its time in

1:28:09 > 1:28:11order to do something extraordinary.

1:28:11 > 1:28:16Alex and Lyse, both of you, if you're embedded with the troops,

1:28:16 > 1:28:17are you compromised?

1:28:17 > 1:28:19Are you... Are you compromised?

1:28:19 > 1:28:22- You're sort bound to be, a bit? - I think you are a little bit compromised.

1:28:22 > 1:28:24- And I hate...- So what's a little bit compromised?

1:28:24 > 1:28:28You have to submit your reports to being censored and you can fight with them and argue and you do.

1:28:28 > 1:28:33And, I mean, Lyse has got first-hand experience with the Syrian army.

1:28:33 > 1:28:36I can't imagine how compromising that must be, you know?

1:28:36 > 1:28:40Because you are only being taken to certain places, you are only being seen their side

1:28:40 > 1:28:45and you will face the consequences if you don't, if you break out of that.

1:28:45 > 1:28:47So I don't like embedding at all.

1:28:47 > 1:28:50However, I think there is a purpose to it,

1:28:50 > 1:28:53an absolute purpose, because you...

1:28:53 > 1:28:55you have to understand how that military is feeling.

1:28:55 > 1:28:59Their morale, if they're working, if they've got the right equipment,

1:28:59 > 1:29:01and that is all significant,

1:29:01 > 1:29:03as to whether they're winning the battle or not.

1:29:03 > 1:29:06But embedding comes in different shapes and sizes, as Alex knows.

1:29:06 > 1:29:08There are some...some embedding,

1:29:08 > 1:29:10if it's a really ferocious battle with the...

1:29:10 > 1:29:13sometimes with an established Western military,

1:29:13 > 1:29:14where you do have to submit

1:29:14 > 1:29:19your papers or your broadcast before you put them to air.

1:29:19 > 1:29:22Erm, I haven't done a lot of embedding because I prefer to do

1:29:22 > 1:29:25stuff outside but I believe embedding can offer a perspective,

1:29:25 > 1:29:28not the ones where you have do submit but there's other embedding

1:29:28 > 1:29:31which took place with... in Afghanistan, in Iraq,

1:29:31 > 1:29:33where it basically got you access.

1:29:33 > 1:29:36It got you access to the front line and you couldn't get there otherwise.

1:29:36 > 1:29:39And it gets you an insight into the thinking of soldiers and if Britain

1:29:39 > 1:29:43is going to war, you want to know what British soldiers are thinking because

1:29:43 > 1:29:44there are British families, you know,

1:29:44 > 1:29:47lives are being put on the line so you have a responsibility to report.

1:29:47 > 1:29:51- Or even the Syrian army.- Yes, you want to know.- You want to know what they're thinking and how

1:29:51 > 1:29:54- they're feeling.- So it does give you... I think, as long as it's not the only reporting

1:29:54 > 1:29:59which is being done, I think it's really important because it gets you really inside

1:29:59 > 1:30:02the thinking and you cannot do that unless you spend time with them.

1:30:02 > 1:30:05The censorship thing, of course, you cannot -

1:30:05 > 1:30:08you don't want to subscribe to, but I think that's happening less and less.

1:30:08 > 1:30:12And for the record, the Syrian army doesn't let a Western journalist embed with them.

1:30:12 > 1:30:14They only let the Russians or the Syrians.

1:30:14 > 1:30:15That's how far the censorship goes.

1:30:15 > 1:30:18We can be in the area but it's not classic embedding, it's sort of...

1:30:18 > 1:30:21- Right.- But there are minders, government minders.

1:30:21 > 1:30:23Embedding grew out of the Kosovo conflict, of course,

1:30:23 > 1:30:26where the Nato forces felt they'd lost control of the narrative,

1:30:26 > 1:30:29lost control of the story, and Jamie Shea, the Nato spokesman at the time,

1:30:29 > 1:30:31said, "We've learned if you don't have the pictures,

1:30:31 > 1:30:33"you don't have the story."

1:30:33 > 1:30:35And I think that's where the idea of embedding came from and it was an

1:30:35 > 1:30:39idea for western countries therefore to control the pictures and control

1:30:39 > 1:30:40the story to a greater extent.

1:30:40 > 1:30:43But it's the journalist's job to be able to work around that and outside of that.

1:30:43 > 1:30:46- Thank you, Richard. - Controlling the narrative...

1:30:46 > 1:30:48- Sorry, I'm afraid... - ..is now so important because - I think Alex would agree -

1:30:48 > 1:30:53that every time a battle is fought on the ground, there's a battle also fought for the narrative

1:30:53 > 1:30:57in the war, and never have we had so much information and never have we had so much manipulation.

1:30:57 > 1:31:00That's the paradox of our time.

1:31:00 > 1:31:03Thank you very much, Lyse Doucet, Richard Sambrook, Alex Crawford.

1:31:03 > 1:31:04Thank you very much.

1:31:05 > 1:31:08Television has been a follower of social trends in some ways,

1:31:08 > 1:31:11has made occasional attempts to lead public opinion in others and has

1:31:11 > 1:31:15done its best within its watchdog limitations to challenge our leaders.

1:31:15 > 1:31:19But it's also affected our lives in far more subtle ways than merely how

1:31:19 > 1:31:21we view the outside world.

1:31:21 > 1:31:24How, for example, did the arrival of a big glass window in our living

1:31:24 > 1:31:27rooms change the way we lived our daily lives and the way we view each other?

1:31:30 > 1:31:3560 years ago, when we were a nation still known for our reserve,

1:31:35 > 1:31:38it wasn't uncommon for people to worry about undressing in front of

1:31:38 > 1:31:41the television set for fear that it was watching them.

1:31:43 > 1:31:46While viewers may have been initially disconcerted by the box in

1:31:46 > 1:31:49the corner, they soon got used to it. In fact, they became quite intimate.

1:31:49 > 1:31:54The early TV shows did share the kind of cosiness more usually associated with friends

1:31:54 > 1:31:58and family who you could turn to for advice on just about anything.

1:31:58 > 1:32:00Well, perhaps you'd like to drive for us

1:32:00 > 1:32:02so we can see just how far it goes.

1:32:03 > 1:32:06Jean's leopard coat is particularly suitable for sportswear and

1:32:06 > 1:32:07point-to-point meetings.

1:32:09 > 1:32:12From the beginning, British television took on an instructional role,

1:32:12 > 1:32:13especially towards children,

1:32:13 > 1:32:17fulfilled a role that had been taken by - and still was taken by -

1:32:17 > 1:32:19teachers and grandparents and parents.

1:32:19 > 1:32:23Blue Peter's a very good example of that, and it was mostly benign.

1:32:23 > 1:32:27And people on television sort of influenced the lives of younger people.

1:32:29 > 1:32:31Hello, children.

1:32:31 > 1:32:33Are you ready to look at the picture book?

1:32:33 > 1:32:35I wonder what we shall have today.

1:32:35 > 1:32:40But the next stage in the ginger beer making is eight pints of water.

1:32:40 > 1:32:42The same instinct to help us improve our lives

1:32:42 > 1:32:45has underpinned a huge raft of television for adults, too.

1:32:48 > 1:32:50When daytime TV launched,

1:32:50 > 1:32:53it included helpful, instructional material,

1:32:53 > 1:32:57so that viewers wouldn't feel guilty watching television instead of working.

1:32:57 > 1:32:59Hold it.

1:32:59 > 1:33:01Slowly. Down.

1:33:02 > 1:33:07You, you shouldn't neglect this crew neckline because it helps so much if

1:33:07 > 1:33:11you...to dress you around the neck, if you don't want to wear a tie.

1:33:11 > 1:33:14In fact, it's really the only neckline that you should really wear

1:33:14 > 1:33:16if you're not wearing a tie.

1:33:16 > 1:33:19Television has influenced every aspect of our daily lives.

1:33:19 > 1:33:23As consumerism grew, TV responded, helping us choose our houses...

1:33:23 > 1:33:25This is what I'm going to show you. It's a bungalow.

1:33:25 > 1:33:27..to design them...

1:33:27 > 1:33:29It's breaking up the white of the uPVC.

1:33:29 > 1:33:32And I think it's going to make it a much lighter building as a result.

1:33:32 > 1:33:36- ..to decorate them.- Oh, my God!

1:33:36 > 1:33:37Oh, look at that!

1:33:37 > 1:33:39Oh, my God!

1:33:39 > 1:33:41It's shown us how to cook.

1:33:41 > 1:33:43If you want good crackling, you bully your butcher.

1:33:43 > 1:33:45Reheat the soup gently.

1:33:45 > 1:33:48It's quite fattening but, you know, who cares?

1:33:49 > 1:33:51Told us what to wear and what not.

1:33:51 > 1:33:56It's heavy, you know, brawn more than brain look to you.

1:33:56 > 1:33:58There is that in this suit.

1:33:59 > 1:34:01And how to garden.

1:34:01 > 1:34:03That, it thrives on being sprayed.

1:34:03 > 1:34:04Oh, you like to spray it?

1:34:04 > 1:34:06Yes, but never in daylight.

1:34:06 > 1:34:07Of course, never in daylight.

1:34:07 > 1:34:09And how not.

1:34:09 > 1:34:11Good evening, and welcome to the BBC News.

1:34:11 > 1:34:14Inevitably over the years, we've come to trust the friendly

1:34:14 > 1:34:16presenters and interviewers appearing on our screens.

1:34:16 > 1:34:19Mostly, that trust has been justified.

1:34:20 > 1:34:22But occasionally, it hasn't.

1:34:27 > 1:34:30The intimacy that rightly or wrongly has made TV personalities feel like

1:34:30 > 1:34:34friends has also allowed viewers to gain a quite new relationship with

1:34:34 > 1:34:35people in the public eye,

1:34:35 > 1:34:38whose personal lives had previously remained private.

1:34:38 > 1:34:41Have you ever been with a person dying?

1:34:41 > 1:34:43Yes, only once.

1:34:44 > 1:34:46Do you remember that?

1:34:46 > 1:34:47Someone very close to you?

1:34:49 > 1:34:51Did it make a vivid impression?

1:34:51 > 1:34:53It did, yes, yes.

1:34:53 > 1:34:58Closely shot one-to-one interviews and increasingly informal chat shows

1:34:58 > 1:35:01have made well-known figures feel like old pals,

1:35:01 > 1:35:03to unwind with on the sofa on a Friday night.

1:35:03 > 1:35:05In the old days, when I was drinking,

1:35:05 > 1:35:08it was three in the morning and all of a sudden in my hotel

1:35:08 > 1:35:11room... It was Peter Cook at the door, going, "Hello, Robin.

1:35:11 > 1:35:12"Time for a little fun."

1:35:14 > 1:35:16- Three...- Can you box?

1:35:16 > 1:35:17- No, no.- Have you ever boxed?

1:35:17 > 1:35:19- No.- Well, why do you know so much about boxing?

1:35:21 > 1:35:23Give me a nice kiss on the camera.

1:35:23 > 1:35:24- On the camera?- On the camera.

1:35:26 > 1:35:28Thank you. Happy New Year!

1:35:28 > 1:35:29Oh, Happy New Year, Jean-Claude.

1:35:29 > 1:35:33This is Channel 4 and you are of course watching the filthy,

1:35:33 > 1:35:35sultry Big Breakfast.

1:35:35 > 1:35:37And the same medium has allowed us to share extraordinary,

1:35:37 > 1:35:39candid and revealing moments,

1:35:39 > 1:35:42as with the playwright Dennis Potter in his dying days.

1:35:42 > 1:35:46Below my window in Ross, when I'm working in Ross,

1:35:46 > 1:35:49is a plum tree. It looks like apple blossom

1:35:49 > 1:35:50but it's white.

1:35:50 > 1:35:53And looking at it, instead of saying, "Oh, that's a nice blossom,"

1:35:53 > 1:35:56you know, now, the last week,

1:35:56 > 1:35:59looking at it through the window when I'm writing, I...

1:35:59 > 1:36:02It is the whitest, frothiest,

1:36:02 > 1:36:05blossomiest blossom that there ever could be.

1:36:05 > 1:36:09But sometimes, TV has given us the illusion of feeling we know some of

1:36:09 > 1:36:12the people in the public eye as well as we know our friends,

1:36:12 > 1:36:15as with Princess Diana.

1:36:15 > 1:36:18By the time she left a glittering charity gala last night,

1:36:18 > 1:36:20the world was standing in judgment of an interview that had been

1:36:20 > 1:36:23breathtaking in its candour.

1:36:23 > 1:36:25As well as admitting adultery, the Princess had,

1:36:25 > 1:36:28in the space of less than an hour, dissected her failed marriage,

1:36:28 > 1:36:32graphically described her bulimia and cast doubt on her husband's

1:36:32 > 1:36:34suitability to be king.

1:36:34 > 1:36:38When she died, it felt to many like the death of someone close, hence,

1:36:38 > 1:36:42perhaps, the unprecedented public outpouring as so many grieved for

1:36:42 > 1:36:44the loss of someone they felt was almost one of the family.

1:36:46 > 1:36:49For some, though, it seemed as though the line between

1:36:49 > 1:36:53TV soap and TV news had become uncomfortably blurred.

1:36:57 > 1:37:00It's the closest race in Big Brother history.

1:37:00 > 1:37:03Who wins? You decide.

1:37:03 > 1:37:06Those blurred lines made it tempting for producers to wonder whether it

1:37:06 > 1:37:10was necessary to have any particular talent to be entertaining on

1:37:10 > 1:37:12television. Suddenly, celebrity,

1:37:12 > 1:37:14which at one time followed talent and hard work,

1:37:14 > 1:37:16inspiration and originality,

1:37:16 > 1:37:18could just as easily follow an appearance on Big Brother.

1:37:18 > 1:37:20Yay!

1:37:20 > 1:37:23And attractive though it may seem, fame - and often notoriety -

1:37:23 > 1:37:27can sometimes hit the unsuspecting like a juggernaut.

1:37:27 > 1:37:31You know what? I don't need to dignify this stupid, stupid argument.

1:37:31 > 1:37:32- You know what?- No, no, no.

1:37:32 > 1:37:35Your claim to fame is this. Good for you.

1:37:35 > 1:37:38The nation watched in horror as the unsuspecting Jade Goody

1:37:38 > 1:37:41dug a hole for herself with her racist remarks.

1:37:41 > 1:37:45Nothing could have prepared her for the onslaught which awaited her on

1:37:45 > 1:37:47her return to the real world.

1:37:48 > 1:37:50Albeit with her consent, the media

1:37:50 > 1:37:52followed her pretty much to her grave.

1:37:52 > 1:37:57Or was the media culpable in exposing the weaknesses of someone

1:37:57 > 1:37:59clearly incapable of protecting

1:37:59 > 1:38:02themselves and disgracefully bullying someone who

1:38:02 > 1:38:03had given them her trust?

1:38:03 > 1:38:04Thank you!

1:38:04 > 1:38:07Thank you!

1:38:07 > 1:38:08Come on, Jade.

1:38:10 > 1:38:14There's no subject too arcane or too off the wall not to attract

1:38:14 > 1:38:15television cameras.

1:38:15 > 1:38:19We are now at the stage where people want to watch people watching

1:38:19 > 1:38:22television. We swallow it up, it swallows us back in.

1:38:22 > 1:38:25Recently, he's been telling me his prices have...

1:38:25 > 1:38:27The box in the corner was the focal point

1:38:27 > 1:38:28for the hilarious Royle Family,

1:38:28 > 1:38:31in which the asinine comments of the cast were often

1:38:31 > 1:38:33uncomfortably familiar.

1:38:33 > 1:38:36He's everywhere, him. He's like shit in a field.

1:38:36 > 1:38:37He's a millionaire, him.

1:38:37 > 1:38:39Aye, and he's still got ginger bollocks.

1:38:39 > 1:38:42Oh, that reminds me, I've got some tangerines in the kitchen.

1:38:46 > 1:38:48- Oh, my God!- And more recently,

1:38:48 > 1:38:51Gogglebox entertains us by watching viewers watching the TV.

1:38:56 > 1:38:58That was awful.

1:38:58 > 1:39:02How far is television responsible for leading and bringing about

1:39:02 > 1:39:06a breakdown of inhibitions among a nation traditionally famed for its

1:39:06 > 1:39:09reserve? And surely it's only a question of time before someone

1:39:09 > 1:39:11starts watching us, watching them,

1:39:11 > 1:39:14watching the TV or maybe that's what we're doing here tonight.

1:39:14 > 1:39:17With me to discuss all this and where it might lead

1:39:17 > 1:39:20are former director of entertainment for ITV Elaine Bedell,

1:39:20 > 1:39:24producer and creator of ground-breaking shows including Survivor and The Big Breakfast

1:39:24 > 1:39:29Charlie Parsons, and writer, broadcaster and television columnist Grace Dent.

1:39:29 > 1:39:33Elaine, when you are putting... casting shows,

1:39:33 > 1:39:37is there any sense in which you are conscious that these are going into

1:39:37 > 1:39:41people's lives, in the sense of being in their sitting rooms and so on?

1:39:41 > 1:39:44Do you feel the contact with the viewer to that extent?

1:39:45 > 1:39:48Yes, you do. And you feel it very strongly in entertainment shows,

1:39:48 > 1:39:50particularly those big,

1:39:50 > 1:39:52blockbuster Saturday night shows because the viewers have

1:39:52 > 1:39:54a role to play in those shows.

1:39:54 > 1:39:58They contribute to the outcome by voting, by phoning in.

1:39:58 > 1:40:02And so the relationship has become a very kind of close relationship.

1:40:02 > 1:40:06Not only are you watching with all your family, across generational -

1:40:06 > 1:40:10that is the thing that those Saturday night shows achieved,

1:40:10 > 1:40:14was bringing everybody together in one room to watch the box in the corner -

1:40:14 > 1:40:17but equally, you could debate about who you wanted to vote for.

1:40:17 > 1:40:20You could influence the outcome of those shows.

1:40:20 > 1:40:23And so that made the relationship between the programme,

1:40:23 > 1:40:26the programme makers and the viewers incredibly tight.

1:40:27 > 1:40:28What did... How did that affect you?

1:40:28 > 1:40:30Did you have inhibitions?

1:40:30 > 1:40:32Were you cautious? Do you have rules?

1:40:32 > 1:40:35You have some rules but on the whole,

1:40:35 > 1:40:39the scary and exciting bit of that is that as a producer or

1:40:39 > 1:40:41a commissioner, you can't control it.

1:40:41 > 1:40:45So it genuinely is in the hands of the viewers.

1:40:45 > 1:40:50But I think it's a very human instinct that everybody likes to see talent

1:40:50 > 1:40:53rewarded and they like to see bad...

1:40:53 > 1:40:56good talent rewarded and they like to see bad talent denigrated

1:40:56 > 1:41:00and so it plays into a whole kind of host of human emotions

1:41:00 > 1:41:04- that are quite...that are quite common.- Charlie Parsons,

1:41:04 > 1:41:05as we mentioned in that compilation,

1:41:05 > 1:41:09people said they were frightened to get undressed in front of

1:41:09 > 1:41:11the television. We've come a long way since then.

1:41:11 > 1:41:14- How did it happen? - Well, I think, actually,

1:41:14 > 1:41:16there has been a natural breakdown in society.

1:41:16 > 1:41:18You know, if things started to change from the '60s onwards,

1:41:18 > 1:41:22- so when I...- Was television part of it - making that breakdown happen,

1:41:22 > 1:41:24- do you think?- I think it was, actually,

1:41:24 > 1:41:28partly but it was also that there was a sort of reaction, if you like,

1:41:28 > 1:41:30to the sort of wartime consensus.

1:41:30 > 1:41:33We'd been in peace for a long time. People felt they could be freer.

1:41:33 > 1:41:36So, yes, of course, it contributed a lot.

1:41:36 > 1:41:40I think to get to the stage where people are actually keen to take

1:41:40 > 1:41:41their clothes off on television,

1:41:41 > 1:41:44which is obviously where it has sort of ended up, erm,

1:41:44 > 1:41:48is just a gradual idea that people can be a part of the television

1:41:48 > 1:41:52programme which before then was spooned to them,

1:41:52 > 1:41:56in that producers would decide and instruct rather than allow anybody,

1:41:56 > 1:41:59if you like, to appear on television.

1:41:59 > 1:42:00But it's a huge change.

1:42:00 > 1:42:02Nobody in society... Well, nobody, except one or two,

1:42:02 > 1:42:05in society would have dreamt of allowing their children, their friends,

1:42:05 > 1:42:08to be seen on television taking their clothes off and so on and so forth.

1:42:08 > 1:42:10That's changed dramatically.

1:42:10 > 1:42:14Is there not one golden bullet that explains all that, Charlie?

1:42:15 > 1:42:18Erm, I'd like to think there was but I think I really do think

1:42:18 > 1:42:22people change and what happens generation to generation is people react against

1:42:22 > 1:42:25their parents. You know, you have to think about it, and as I say,

1:42:25 > 1:42:27in the context of the '60s onwards,

1:42:27 > 1:42:30loads of music movements or whatever were all about rebelling against

1:42:30 > 1:42:33their parents and suddenly, people saw that.

1:42:33 > 1:42:38Grace Dent, with the inclusion of real people, do you...

1:42:38 > 1:42:41In a lot of television, do you think this is democratic or

1:42:41 > 1:42:43is it used for entertainment purposes?

1:42:43 > 1:42:45Is there a distinction?

1:42:45 > 1:42:46Is it democratic?

1:42:46 > 1:42:51I mean, I suppose it is democratic in that anybody who...

1:42:51 > 1:42:56anybody who catches the eye of a producer can now apparently be famous

1:42:56 > 1:43:01and anybody who...who lights up the public's world can then take it further,

1:43:01 > 1:43:03someone like Scarlett.

1:43:03 > 1:43:07I mean, it's purely democratic that Scarlett off Gogglebox has now

1:43:07 > 1:43:11become one of the most famous people in Britain because she appeared in front of

1:43:11 > 1:43:16people for, like, moments at a time and it was elevated to a bigger thing, a huger thing.

1:43:16 > 1:43:18She's one of the most famous people in Britain.

1:43:18 > 1:43:20So, yes, at some level.

1:43:20 > 1:43:22Do you think humiliation plays a part in it?

1:43:22 > 1:43:24Does humiliation play a part in...

1:43:24 > 1:43:26Er, well, I think that...

1:43:27 > 1:43:31I think that it would be very easy for me to do down Big Brother and

1:43:31 > 1:43:35say that it's all about humiliation and it's all awful but I absolutely adored it and it's what...

1:43:35 > 1:43:38I think it's probably one of the greatest moments of

1:43:38 > 1:43:40my life when it first came along.

1:43:40 > 1:43:42And I kind of put my entire world round it.

1:43:42 > 1:43:46And, yeah, I mean, there's an element of watching people through your fingers.

1:43:46 > 1:43:48I think that has to happen.

1:43:48 > 1:43:51I think that people do maybe have to have their comeuppance.

1:43:51 > 1:43:53I think we maybe have to see things that are uncomfortable.

1:43:53 > 1:43:55I'm thinking about The Word,

1:43:55 > 1:43:58that programme I used to watch in the '80s and then, you know,

1:43:58 > 1:43:59what about that wonderful moment,

1:43:59 > 1:44:01I'd Do Anything To Get On Television,

1:44:01 > 1:44:05and we would like structure our entire Friday evening to try and get

1:44:05 > 1:44:08home from the pub to watch people kind of lick someone's armpit.

1:44:08 > 1:44:10I'm sorry, I've lowered the tone.

1:44:10 > 1:44:12- I think the democratisation... - No, you haven't.

1:44:12 > 1:44:13You haven't at all.

1:44:13 > 1:44:16I think the truth is, I mean, it began almost, really, didn't it,

1:44:16 > 1:44:18with Paul Watson's The Family in the '70s?

1:44:18 > 1:44:21- Yeah.- When you suddenly, you realised that, you know,

1:44:21 > 1:44:25it wasn't celebrity or actors and actresses who could command that

1:44:25 > 1:44:29sort of national viewing appeal.

1:44:29 > 1:44:31It was a very ordinary family from Reading.

1:44:31 > 1:44:34And I think what's happened is that, you know,

1:44:34 > 1:44:39television has realised that ordinary people can be as charismatic and as

1:44:39 > 1:44:45funny and as witty as celebrities and professional television presenters -

1:44:45 > 1:44:48forgive me, Melvyn - and so,

1:44:48 > 1:44:51they found their place on television and Gogglebox in particular has

1:44:51 > 1:44:55- brilliantly celebrated that. - And they know what they're letting themselves in for, you know?

1:44:55 > 1:44:59- Do they? I mean, Jade didn't know what she was letting herself in for.- I think, I think she...

1:44:59 > 1:45:02I think if she'd watched television, which I'm sure she did, she would.

1:45:02 > 1:45:06I mean, she expressed what she thought at the time.

1:45:06 > 1:45:10I think she did. I think, you know, I think it's easy to say, "Oh, well,

1:45:10 > 1:45:12"we're, as producers, we're exploiting them."

1:45:12 > 1:45:16but I think people enter into these things because they actually

1:45:16 > 1:45:20volunteer. The Hopefuls - the slot that was on my programme,

1:45:20 > 1:45:23The Word - you know, which was the I'd Do Anything To Get On TV,

1:45:23 > 1:45:25people would, you know, would...

1:45:25 > 1:45:28We'd get hundreds and hundreds of letters every week from people who

1:45:28 > 1:45:30wanted to do these hideous acts on TV,

1:45:30 > 1:45:33like lying in a bath full of pig poo, you know.

1:45:33 > 1:45:35It's just extraordinary. But we would.

1:45:35 > 1:45:38They knew what they were doing. They knew what they were doing.

1:45:38 > 1:45:40It is still beguiling...

1:45:40 > 1:45:44- Sorry!- If you've been through several decades, as I have,

1:45:44 > 1:45:48how you can get politicians to end up eating insects on an island?

1:45:49 > 1:45:52Don't you find it surprising that's happened, even in your short lifetime, Charlotte?

1:45:52 > 1:45:56It is, no. It's a strange thing.

1:45:56 > 1:45:57But then,

1:45:57 > 1:46:00if you think of Attlee, when he does his interview,

1:46:00 > 1:46:01compared to Jeremy Paxman,

1:46:01 > 1:46:05that's the direction that the whole of the 20th century has taken.

1:46:05 > 1:46:08And it is a brilliant way of reaching a huge cross-section of

1:46:08 > 1:46:11the population. I mean, once you're broadcasting to above six million viewers,

1:46:11 > 1:46:14as you are on I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here,

1:46:14 > 1:46:18what a brilliant way to let them see politicians as they really are.

1:46:18 > 1:46:21I don't know if they ever really put their political message across.

1:46:21 > 1:46:25I think George Galloway went into the Big Brother house and I really

1:46:25 > 1:46:28think he thought on some level he was going to change people's hearts

1:46:28 > 1:46:33and minds. And he was soon in a spandex catsuit body top.

1:46:33 > 1:46:37Do you think that this is a change or do you think we've always been like that,

1:46:37 > 1:46:41and now we've got the opportunity to get it out?

1:46:41 > 1:46:45Do you think the stiff upper lip was a mask for the big mouth open?

1:46:45 > 1:46:49- What do you think?- Have we always been shameless exhibitionists at some level?

1:46:49 > 1:46:51Exactly. That is the question.

1:46:51 > 1:46:57I think that in every corner of every town there has always been shameless exhibitionists,

1:46:57 > 1:47:00we just didn't used to shine a camera on them.

1:47:00 > 1:47:02I keep thinking,

1:47:02 > 1:47:06what was the golden bullet that from one moment people were covering

1:47:06 > 1:47:10their bits on Big Brother, and then, is the golden bullet Geordie Shore?

1:47:10 > 1:47:15Is that the words we are looking for, that suddenly people thought, "Hey, let's have sex on screen"?

1:47:15 > 1:47:17I think we should stop here, really.

1:47:17 > 1:47:18Thank you very much.

1:47:18 > 1:47:22Elaine Bedell, Grace Dent, Charlie Parsons, thank you very much.

1:47:22 > 1:47:28You wouldn't expect me to let two hours of television pass by without

1:47:28 > 1:47:31talking about what television's done for the arts in this country.

1:47:31 > 1:47:33Or indeed what the arts have done for television.

1:47:33 > 1:47:37Television has made the arts accessible to millions in a way that

1:47:37 > 1:47:39was never before possible in history.

1:47:42 > 1:47:44Once again, right from the start,

1:47:44 > 1:47:48producers and directors wrestled with how television could best

1:47:48 > 1:47:51convey a range of art forms which had originally been created for

1:47:51 > 1:47:53a different medium.

1:47:53 > 1:47:55When Elgar was a boy he spent hours on his own

1:47:55 > 1:47:57riding on his father's pony

1:47:57 > 1:47:58along the ridges of the Malvern Hills.

1:48:01 > 1:48:05Pointing cameras at the ballet might have missed the thrill of the live

1:48:05 > 1:48:07experience, but it did allow close-ups,

1:48:07 > 1:48:10not available to even the most expensive seats in the house.

1:48:15 > 1:48:17A night of the opera, live or pre-recorded,

1:48:17 > 1:48:19has enabled the finest voices of our age

1:48:19 > 1:48:23to reach places they would never otherwise have reached.

1:48:23 > 1:48:26An improvement in the technology of sound recording means you can close

1:48:26 > 1:48:31your eyes and you might almost be in the auditorium.

1:48:31 > 1:48:37SHE SINGS

1:48:52 > 1:48:54I think it's a great work.

1:48:54 > 1:48:56Dare I say?

1:48:56 > 1:49:00- Quite.- Viewing great art may never be as real on the TV screen

1:49:00 > 1:49:01as it is in real life.

1:49:01 > 1:49:05But the chance to also hear about the motivations and

1:49:05 > 1:49:07inspirations of the masters has made art

1:49:07 > 1:49:11more meaningful to millions, and it continues to do so.

1:49:12 > 1:49:15You make an image and it's changing all the time.

1:49:15 > 1:49:19And then it's to do with your own instinct and sensibility,

1:49:19 > 1:49:21which turns it one way or another.

1:49:23 > 1:49:26We have been able to hear the written word of some of our greatest

1:49:26 > 1:49:29authors. And television has occasionally allowed us something of a special

1:49:29 > 1:49:31treat that is not available to readers,

1:49:31 > 1:49:34of hearing them spoken in the voices of the writers themselves.

1:49:36 > 1:49:40To Hay on Wye with Nick Hytner and Diana Wood.

1:49:40 > 1:49:42The atmosphere is like a county show,

1:49:42 > 1:49:45with literature standing in for husbandry.

1:49:45 > 1:49:49And authors being led about like pedigree cattle.

1:49:50 > 1:49:53Television has allowed us to experience the grandeur

1:49:53 > 1:49:54of a 90-piece orchestra.

1:49:57 > 1:50:02# When I said I needed you... #

1:50:05 > 1:50:09And at the same time made popular music far more popular and far more

1:50:09 > 1:50:11interesting by making it available to all of us.

1:50:11 > 1:50:13# He'd like to come and meet us

1:50:13 > 1:50:16# But he thinks he'd blow our mind... #

1:50:17 > 1:50:19Art in all its forms is a spirit and conscience

1:50:19 > 1:50:21of a civilised society.

1:50:22 > 1:50:24And television has long been at the heart,

1:50:24 > 1:50:26which has pumped it to every corner of our nation.

1:50:29 > 1:50:31In city after city, town after town in this country,

1:50:31 > 1:50:33literature festivals, music festivals,

1:50:33 > 1:50:36documentary film festivals, it's burgeoning the arts.

1:50:36 > 1:50:38People want more of it.

1:50:38 > 1:50:40Because when you finish your day's work, what do you want to do?

1:50:40 > 1:50:44You want to enjoy, you want to have pleasure in music, in dancing,

1:50:44 > 1:50:47in reading, in looking at good stuff on television.

1:50:47 > 1:50:49That's what you want to do.

1:50:54 > 1:50:57Let's hope television carries on to play its part in ensuring that all

1:50:57 > 1:50:59of us - not just the privileged few -

1:50:59 > 1:51:02can continue to have access to our remarkable cultural life.

1:51:08 > 1:51:11We've spent nearly two hours discussing the extraordinary cycle

1:51:11 > 1:51:13of television over the last 60 years.

1:51:13 > 1:51:16It's entertained, challenged, informed and maddened.

1:51:16 > 1:51:20Whatever your view, it became a key part of our lives and helped to shape them,

1:51:20 > 1:51:23but in a world that's altering before our eyes,

1:51:23 > 1:51:27can television continue to have the same impact as it's had in the past?

1:51:27 > 1:51:30With me for this final discussion are the executive producer of The Crown

1:51:30 > 1:51:34and producer of some of television's most successful dramas Andy Harries,

1:51:34 > 1:51:36and one of our foremost comedy producers,

1:51:36 > 1:51:41whose credits include The Office and The IT Crowd, Ash Atalla.

1:51:41 > 1:51:43Ash, to start with you,

1:51:43 > 1:51:46do you think it can continue to have the same impact?

1:51:46 > 1:51:51Um, not all at once, in a sense, it's become so fragmented,

1:51:51 > 1:51:55I think the impact that television has will continue to be,

1:51:55 > 1:51:59but it is cumulative, so it's smaller parts, but all over the place.

1:51:59 > 1:52:01I think the days where one show -

1:52:01 > 1:52:03we used to call it the water-cooler moment,

1:52:03 > 1:52:06where people would go into work the next day and speak about a particular show

1:52:06 > 1:52:10that was on the night before - I think those days are receding,

1:52:10 > 1:52:13because the shows are becoming more fragmented.

1:52:13 > 1:52:17So I think if you asked the people in this audience what shows they watch,

1:52:17 > 1:52:20the range of shows would be enormous,

1:52:20 > 1:52:23so it's hard to have an impact over that many shows.

1:52:23 > 1:52:25But interesting, terrestrial television, the big channels,

1:52:25 > 1:52:29are still holding big audiences - ten, 11 million sometimes,

1:52:29 > 1:52:3113 million sometimes and so on.

1:52:31 > 1:52:33Right, I think that's true in drama.

1:52:33 > 1:52:37In my corner of the world, I think in comedy, I think, it's become,

1:52:37 > 1:52:39there is now something for everyone

1:52:39 > 1:52:41and gone are the days of family comedy viewing,

1:52:41 > 1:52:43where you would sit down with your parents -

1:52:43 > 1:52:46I guess it was Morecambe and Wise, The Two Ronnies, Porridge -

1:52:46 > 1:52:50those collective family moments in comedy have gone.

1:52:50 > 1:52:52So what are the consequences of that?

1:52:52 > 1:52:57Well, there's a concern, I think, that the market might collapse,

1:52:57 > 1:52:59because there is something for everyone.

1:52:59 > 1:53:02- What market? - I think people... There's a phrase,

1:53:02 > 1:53:05peak television, that's going around a lot at the moment,

1:53:05 > 1:53:07which is that there is so much of it - there's Netflix,

1:53:07 > 1:53:09there's Amazon, there's the BBC,

1:53:09 > 1:53:12they say for people like Andy and I, who make television,

1:53:12 > 1:53:15there's never been a better time, but at the same time,

1:53:15 > 1:53:17it's never been more competitive,

1:53:17 > 1:53:21and so the concern is with it all becoming so niche

1:53:21 > 1:53:25that the market might fall apart, ie, the model isn't sustainable.

1:53:25 > 1:53:29You can't make that many shows over that many platforms.

1:53:29 > 1:53:33Andy, Andy Harries, The Crown is a massive success on Netflix.

1:53:33 > 1:53:35What does that show?

1:53:35 > 1:53:37Is that a harbinger of what will happen next?

1:53:37 > 1:53:39If so, what is going to happen next?

1:53:39 > 1:53:43Is it a harbinger? Well, I think The Crown is a success for many reasons.

1:53:43 > 1:53:48It's partly because it's about a family that the whole world is

1:53:48 > 1:53:51interested in. It is also a brand, in the way the whole world

1:53:51 > 1:53:54is conscious of the Royal Family, and for a company like Netflix,

1:53:54 > 1:53:57who are rolling out around the world,

1:53:57 > 1:54:00The Crown was a perfect purchase, if you like, because

1:54:00 > 1:54:03you know, their promise to us is we will make your show,

1:54:03 > 1:54:05we'll give you a lot of money and we'll open it up on the same night

1:54:05 > 1:54:07in 180 countries worldwide.

1:54:07 > 1:54:10I mean, it's an extraordinary concept for someone who has been

1:54:10 > 1:54:14making television shows for 30-odd years, you know,

1:54:14 > 1:54:16you'd have a show go out on BBC or ITV

1:54:16 > 1:54:18and it would do jolly well and get

1:54:18 > 1:54:20nice reviews or not, what have you,

1:54:20 > 1:54:24but it's a wholly different sort of concept for a producer to be creating

1:54:24 > 1:54:28a show that is going out right around the world simultaneously.

1:54:28 > 1:54:31As a postscript, we started out by saying the biggest influence on

1:54:31 > 1:54:34television in the early days was the coronation,

1:54:34 > 1:54:37and we're ending it with the biggest thing in television at the moment is

1:54:37 > 1:54:39The Crown. We can't seem to get rid of them, can we?

1:54:39 > 1:54:40No, we can't get rid of them.

1:54:40 > 1:54:43Well, you might argue they started it themselves,

1:54:43 > 1:54:44because they took that decision

1:54:44 > 1:54:47to allow the coronation to be filmed.

1:54:47 > 1:54:51You might argue that the natural end of that story of the Royal Family

1:54:51 > 1:54:54slowly opening up, allowing little bits more,

1:54:54 > 1:54:56little documentaries here and there, in the end,

1:54:56 > 1:54:59such is the fascination they've built around themselves and such is

1:54:59 > 1:55:02the extraordinary stories they have,

1:55:02 > 1:55:05that are a part of their history,

1:55:05 > 1:55:09that a dramatisation is the inevitable result.

1:55:09 > 1:55:15It's hugely costly and you can see it all in two evenings, as it were.

1:55:15 > 1:55:18What effect is that having on your area of production?

1:55:18 > 1:55:21Well, he's wearing a more expensive jacket than me!

1:55:22 > 1:55:26You can see that. I think there's always been a truism about comedy

1:55:26 > 1:55:30budgets, which is that, to make people laugh, it doesn't necessarily need to be expensive.

1:55:30 > 1:55:34You don't need explosions, you don't need car chases.

1:55:34 > 1:55:36You know, the economic model of comedy, you know,

1:55:36 > 1:55:39effectively some of the best comedies are funny people saying

1:55:39 > 1:55:43funny things in a room, in a prison, in an office, or whatever it is,

1:55:43 > 1:55:46and that's not necessarily expensive.

1:55:46 > 1:55:51But I think it's got to the point where it has become very much sort

1:55:51 > 1:55:53of the poor relation of drama

1:55:53 > 1:55:56and I think what's happening is broadcasters

1:55:56 > 1:55:58are just having to take bigger bets.

1:55:58 > 1:56:02You know, so to make an impact these days you have to take a really big

1:56:02 > 1:56:06swing, you know, and let's not talk about the budget of The Crown,

1:56:06 > 1:56:09but that would have been a huge bet that Netflix would have taken.

1:56:09 > 1:56:11I think in comedy,

1:56:11 > 1:56:12it's still lower risk,

1:56:12 > 1:56:16but creatively, when you get a comedy wrong, it's a disaster.

1:56:16 > 1:56:18- Really, when you get it wrong?- Yes.

1:56:18 > 1:56:24But do you think there's more chance... I mean, we had BBC One, BBC Two, ITV, Channel 4, Sky,

1:56:24 > 1:56:27and they held the ring for a long time -

1:56:27 > 1:56:2960 years we're talking about.

1:56:29 > 1:56:34Now, are you suggesting that time is gone and that template is over,

1:56:34 > 1:56:36or just slowly eroded?

1:56:36 > 1:56:39I don't think the time has gone, because as you said yourself,

1:56:39 > 1:56:42Bake Offs and the like, and there are

1:56:42 > 1:56:48key live sport and key talent shows and odd moments all bringing huge

1:56:48 > 1:56:51ratings to terrestrial channels, and that will carry on for another ten,

1:56:51 > 1:56:5415, maybe 20 years, but the balance has definitely changed.

1:56:54 > 1:56:56I mean, it's an economic balance,

1:56:56 > 1:56:59because if you want to watch Netflix or you want to watch Amazon,

1:56:59 > 1:57:02you have to pay, so there's a certain amount of people who said "Thanks, I don't want to pay,

1:57:02 > 1:57:05"I just want to watch BBC, which is still free,

1:57:05 > 1:57:07"and ITV, which is still free, because of advertising," but...

1:57:07 > 1:57:10People get more and more used to paying for things.

1:57:10 > 1:57:13I mean, my generation would never pay to watch football,

1:57:13 > 1:57:14but they do in droves now.

1:57:14 > 1:57:17Yeah, I think... And actually the way people spend money,

1:57:17 > 1:57:21something like £8 a month for Netflix actually represents very good value.

1:57:21 > 1:57:25A cinema ticket is about £12 these days.

1:57:25 > 1:57:26So it doesn't feel that expensive.

1:57:26 > 1:57:29I think the key, to answer your question - have those days gone? -

1:57:29 > 1:57:33if you imagine from your front room you can watch television from almost

1:57:33 > 1:57:37any country in the world, and that is your competition,

1:57:37 > 1:57:41for people like Andy and I, so you are now not just competing with ITV,

1:57:41 > 1:57:43you're competing globally,

1:57:43 > 1:57:47and I think what you are finding is mediocre shows are disappearing,

1:57:47 > 1:57:50because people don't have to sit through them any more,

1:57:50 > 1:57:51because you can watch -

1:57:51 > 1:57:54at any point you should be able to watch something really good.

1:57:54 > 1:57:57Do you think there has been a revolution in the way this country

1:57:57 > 1:57:59has seen itself in the last 60 years?

1:57:59 > 1:58:02You've got about four second to answer that, Andy.

1:58:02 > 1:58:04That's a very difficult question to answer in four seconds!

1:58:04 > 1:58:08- Has television? - Yes, the advent of television,

1:58:08 > 1:58:11has it been this sort of revolutionary thing that I suggested it was two hours ago?

1:58:11 > 1:58:16I think it's defined the last 30-40 years, I definitely do,

1:58:16 > 1:58:18it both it reflects and leads,

1:58:18 > 1:58:21but largely reflects, and...

1:58:21 > 1:58:25Hugely - hugely revolutionary but also taken for granted,

1:58:25 > 1:58:29because it's just there, but, yeah, it's made an enormous impact.

1:58:29 > 1:58:32Thanks to you, Andy. Thanks to you, Ash.

1:58:32 > 1:58:34Thanks to everybody who has taken part in this programme

1:58:34 > 1:58:35and to you for tuning in,

1:58:35 > 1:58:39and I hope you find much more that you want to watch as time goes by.

1:58:39 > 1:58:40Goodnight.

1:58:42 > 1:58:46# Bring me sunshine in your smile

1:58:48 > 1:58:52# Bring me laughter all the while

1:58:54 > 1:58:56# In this world where we live

1:58:56 > 1:58:59# There should be more happiness

1:58:59 > 1:59:02# So much joy you can give

1:59:02 > 1:59:05# To each brand-new bright tomorrow

1:59:05 > 1:59:08# Make me happy

1:59:08 > 1:59:10# Through the years... #