0:00:01 > 0:00:03BBC Four collections.
0:00:03 > 0:00:06Specially chosen programmes from the BBC archive.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35I love paint, you know, I love paint, and I love canvas.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39And I just find that paint, it never behaves in the same way twice.
0:00:39 > 0:00:44It's always surprising. It's just an incredible...medium.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48You know, paint behaves like it's an organic material.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52It's just like... water pouring down a wall
0:00:52 > 0:00:56or a waterfall or rain or...
0:00:56 > 0:00:57natural elements.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03I mean, it just has that flexibility that other mediums don't have.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08And yet it turns into things all the time, always has done.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Well, you know, if John Hoyland hadn't existed,
0:01:18 > 0:01:22it would have been necessary to have invented him.
0:01:22 > 0:01:28The British art world needed an answer to abstract expressionism.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32The British art world and the British art museums needed
0:01:32 > 0:01:36a quasi-abstract expressionist painter at that point
0:01:36 > 0:01:40to put into the modern art galleries.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43And Hoyland fitted the bill.
0:01:43 > 0:01:44He's a virtuoso,
0:01:44 > 0:01:48he has enormous dexterity in the slickest imaginable sense.
0:01:48 > 0:01:52It's certainly abstract painting.
0:01:52 > 0:01:56And to me, it's abstract in the most limited sense of all.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00It's painting which is confined to a particular area of experience,
0:02:00 > 0:02:03the area of painting itself.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06I mean, you could say it's painting about painting.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11NARRATOR: 'At a time when his own painting
0:02:11 > 0:02:14'and abstract painting in general, has been under heavy attack,
0:02:14 > 0:02:16'John Hoyland prepares for a major exhibition
0:02:16 > 0:02:18'at a key point in his career.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21'At 44, many people consider him
0:02:21 > 0:02:24'to be the best abstract artist in this country.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26'But success has brought criticism.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28'There are artists and critics who despise his work
0:02:28 > 0:02:29'and what it stands for.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32'The power to communicate, he believes,
0:02:32 > 0:02:35'still belongs to the traditional means of paint and canvas.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44'He started to paint in Sheffield, the city where he was born.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46'In London, he developed a style of his own
0:02:46 > 0:02:49'and rapidly became a '60s success.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54'Since then, his work has continued to develop and change,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57'but the climate in which he works has changed too.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00'During the last decade, painting, especially abstract painting,
0:03:00 > 0:03:03'has been challenged by a riot of alternatives.'
0:03:03 > 0:03:05There have been pressures all through the '60s.
0:03:05 > 0:03:10All kinds of pressures, from this-ism, that-ism, you know,
0:03:10 > 0:03:12whether it's pop art...
0:03:13 > 0:03:15..um, optical art.
0:03:15 > 0:03:20I mean, all these things are the messiah of the moment.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23You know, found art, kinetic art.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26Happenings.
0:03:30 > 0:03:31Land art.
0:03:31 > 0:03:35You know, all these things have been going on, going on.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37Conceptual art.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39Think-about-it art.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42Think-about-it art?
0:03:42 > 0:03:44HE LAUGHS
0:03:52 > 0:03:54NARRATOR: 'In the studio, the artist becomes
0:03:54 > 0:03:56'his own public and his own critic.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58'During six days in September,
0:03:58 > 0:04:00'we filmed John Hoyland at work on one painting.'
0:04:02 > 0:04:04MUSIC PLAYS ON RADIO
0:04:10 > 0:04:11I very often have the radio on
0:04:11 > 0:04:16because just that sort of constant junk that you hear,
0:04:16 > 0:04:19I find that it sort of empties my mind out.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21It sort of acts as a filter.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25So that I don't get too conscious of what I'm doing.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28I think that's very useful.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33Plus, it stops you feeling so lonely.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41Just making a painting, I mean, it's such a...
0:04:41 > 0:04:43It seems such a ridiculous...
0:04:43 > 0:04:46a ridiculous activity, in a way.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50I mean...I mean, nobody wants it particularly.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54And, er, you don't know if you can do it,
0:04:54 > 0:04:56you don't know if you're strong enough to do it.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03It's just you... on your own in a room.
0:05:12 > 0:05:14I don't know, you just sort of have some...
0:05:15 > 0:05:18..some barmy idea that you could,
0:05:18 > 0:05:22you know how to...you have a glimpse of how you might be able to...
0:05:24 > 0:05:25..go ahead and make a painting.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31I always start by staining it.
0:05:31 > 0:05:38But as far as the colour and the placing of the colour and so on...
0:05:40 > 0:05:43You know, I don't have a clue what I'm going to be doing
0:05:43 > 0:05:46by the time I get to that side... of the picture.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51Just anything that looks nice.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57Somebody once said that painting on a blank white canvas
0:05:57 > 0:05:59was a bit like shadow boxing.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03There's nothing really to have a dialogue with at this point.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10Just the colour and getting it on.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14It'll give me something to work against later.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34I mean, you have to sort of, er...
0:06:34 > 0:06:38I mean, it's so fragile an activity, I think, making a painting,
0:06:38 > 0:06:43trying to bring a painting sort of into the world, as it were,
0:06:43 > 0:06:47that you have to sort of give yourself all sorts of barmy...
0:06:48 > 0:06:51..kid yourself along, you know.
0:06:51 > 0:06:56Kid the painting along and try to kind of keep your confidence up.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05I mean, you're painting these things that nobody wants,
0:07:05 > 0:07:09and the whole activity is sort of a bit unreal, in a way,
0:07:09 > 0:07:10at least while you're doing it.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13Everybody keeps coming out and saying it's rubbish,
0:07:13 > 0:07:15it's unreal.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17You know, then a lot of people,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20they're going to succumb to that, aren't they?
0:07:20 > 0:07:24They're going to think, "Christ, it is pretty unreal," you know.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27During the three-day week, for instance,
0:07:27 > 0:07:29the whole country's grinding to a halt,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32and then here you are in a corner of the room
0:07:32 > 0:07:34with a feather duster in your hand
0:07:34 > 0:07:38kind of flicking away like some chambermaid or something.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42I mean, that's pretty unreal. You think, "What the hell am I doing?"
0:07:56 > 0:07:59So now you don't... Now you know why I got to any jogging!
0:07:59 > 0:08:01HE LAUGHS
0:08:03 > 0:08:06I think it's much too easy to paint beautiful pictures.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09Especially today, with these acrylic paints,
0:08:09 > 0:08:10the way they work like watercolour
0:08:10 > 0:08:13and they have all the qualities of watercolour.
0:08:13 > 0:08:18But I usually have to sacrifice them for something more durable
0:08:18 > 0:08:20and more permanent.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23It's like sacrificing the qualities of a watercolour
0:08:23 > 0:08:25to get the permanence of an oil painting.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29I always wish I could use some of this,
0:08:29 > 0:08:32but most of it will probably have to go.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34In the end, it's probably too...
0:08:35 > 0:08:36..I don't know...
0:08:36 > 0:08:39flashy or slick or something.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44INTERVIEWER: Do you like it, John,
0:08:44 > 0:08:45- at this stage? - Oh, I don't know,
0:08:45 > 0:08:47I just like... it looks good when it's wet,
0:08:47 > 0:08:49but when it dries, it'll probably look terrible.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51You know what I mean?
0:09:08 > 0:09:12With me, it's very funny with painting, if I'm on top,
0:09:12 > 0:09:16if I'm dominating the painting, as I am at the moment,
0:09:16 > 0:09:18then I'm enjoying it,
0:09:18 > 0:09:20but...it's not really...
0:09:22 > 0:09:24..all that satisfying.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26On the other hand, if a painting is going all wrong,
0:09:26 > 0:09:29and I'm sort of struggling with it,
0:09:29 > 0:09:31that's usually equally bad.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34It's only when it's a sort of touch-and-go situation when...
0:09:34 > 0:09:37I'm not quite sure who's winning,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40but I hope I am, you know, and I keep...
0:09:42 > 0:09:45..sort of feinting and blocking and playing
0:09:45 > 0:09:48and not committing myself and so on,
0:09:48 > 0:09:50and then I'll throw in something...
0:09:54 > 0:09:58..to try and surprise myself or the painting or whatever.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02And that's when it gets exciting, I think, when you are not sure.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05When it's the sort of painting where you keep going out of the room
0:10:05 > 0:10:08and coming back in and having another look at it, you know, to see
0:10:08 > 0:10:11if it's...maybe it's all right.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15Maybe it's terrible, maybe it's stupid, maybe it's obvious.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17It's just the ones where you come back in
0:10:17 > 0:10:19and you know exactly what it's going to look like
0:10:19 > 0:10:21and it looks like that, it just sits there and looks back at you.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23And you know you've got to go on with it then
0:10:23 > 0:10:29and try to make it something else, something a bit more surprising.
0:10:43 > 0:10:47I mean, you can't really think about colour. You can just...
0:10:47 > 0:10:49you respond to colour.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55I mean, I think there must be something that makes you...
0:10:55 > 0:10:57choose one colour and not choose another colour.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02And that probably springs from some...
0:11:02 > 0:11:06source or other that we, um...
0:11:06 > 0:11:09you know, don't necessarily know too much about.
0:11:11 > 0:11:15I mean, I can use certain colours at certain times, and other times...
0:11:15 > 0:11:18there's just no way that I could use that colour.
0:11:18 > 0:11:22It would, you know, probably repulse me or something.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26It very often does.
0:11:26 > 0:11:27But, er...
0:11:29 > 0:11:32..colour's not an intellectual choice.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37It's more something that one...
0:11:37 > 0:11:42that kind of comes over one, that one responds to in a way that...
0:11:42 > 0:11:49perhaps one responds to, you know, other emotions, maybe fears.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51In a way that one might be frightened
0:11:51 > 0:11:54when one walks past a dog or something.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58It's just, um...
0:12:00 > 0:12:02It's not a conscious choice.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05I mean, at certain times when I get into trouble in a painting,
0:12:05 > 0:12:08I sometimes try and think my way out of it,
0:12:08 > 0:12:11but I don't know if that's the best answer, really,
0:12:11 > 0:12:13or been the best thing to do.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Sometimes one has to try to...
0:12:16 > 0:12:19unlearn what one's learnt about
0:12:19 > 0:12:22colour analysis and so on, to try to get back to a more...
0:12:24 > 0:12:26..simple state...
0:12:30 > 0:12:33..you know, a more kind of childlike use of colour.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38I sometimes think I know too much about colour
0:12:38 > 0:12:43and I don't know enough, but I just know too many other things,
0:12:43 > 0:12:45too many things I've learned, you know.
0:12:47 > 0:12:50INTERVIEWER: Does that mean it's random?
0:12:50 > 0:12:51No, I don't think it...
0:12:51 > 0:12:54I think it may start out random but I think it doesn't end up random.
0:12:54 > 0:12:59I think in the end, even the choice of the size of the stretcher
0:12:59 > 0:13:03when you order it over the phone, not even that is random in the end.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09You know, everything has to relate in a total kind of way.
0:13:09 > 0:13:13And if the stretcher is the wrong size, then...
0:13:15 > 0:13:19..the whole thing won't gel, you know.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24So I don't think anything is random at all in the end.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27It's a question of trying to...
0:13:27 > 0:13:30reach into something, and the kind of absurdity of...
0:13:31 > 0:13:35..talking about it, you know, it's something you really can't...
0:13:35 > 0:13:37and shouldn't talk about.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52INTERVIEWER: That makes it sound very indulgent.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54- Very what? - Indulgent.
0:13:54 > 0:13:55- Very? - Indulgent.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02Well, what's all this about indulgence?
0:14:02 > 0:14:04I mean, what's it's supposed to be?
0:14:04 > 0:14:07What's wrong with expressing yourself?
0:14:07 > 0:14:11I mean, is it indulgent to, you know, blow a trumpet or something,
0:14:11 > 0:14:13is that indulgent?
0:14:18 > 0:14:22Is it indulgent to play a cymbal, or play a musical instrument,
0:14:22 > 0:14:23is that indulgent?
0:14:27 > 0:14:28Is it?
0:14:30 > 0:14:31Is it?
0:14:33 > 0:14:37INTERVIEWER: You talked about pushing painting to places you hadn't been.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45Again, you know, you don't know...
0:14:45 > 0:14:48You know, it's something you really can't talk about.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50That's the reason you paint, you see.
0:14:50 > 0:14:54The reason you paint is because that is the way you find out how to do it.
0:14:54 > 0:14:59You can't think it, think it through, and then just do it.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01You've got to think while you're doing it.
0:15:03 > 0:15:08I mean, critics sometimes say that you can't blame it
0:15:08 > 0:15:11all on the eye, that you've got a brain as well.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15Well, of course you've got a brain as well, but you've also got an eye.
0:15:15 > 0:15:19And I think that the two things have got to work together.
0:15:24 > 0:15:25HE SIGHS
0:15:27 > 0:15:29Think I'd better do something different.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47I think I'm beginning to go through that horrible time
0:15:47 > 0:15:51when you...you don't know what you're doing, you know.
0:15:57 > 0:16:02Cos that's sort of so kind of phoney dramatic, the way it is there.
0:16:02 > 0:16:04Got to get rid of it.
0:16:23 > 0:16:29If you're a figurative painter, the more precisely you work,
0:16:29 > 0:16:35the more controlled your painting is, the better it seems to be.
0:16:35 > 0:16:36But with abstract painting,
0:16:36 > 0:16:40the more controlled it is, the more superficial it seems to be.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43It has to be kind of more...raw.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48And I think that a lot of English artists, including myself,
0:16:48 > 0:16:51tend to be not raw enough, you know.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54Of course then you get the other ones who try to go to the other
0:16:54 > 0:16:56extreme, because they're aware of that,
0:16:56 > 0:17:02and they end up being like a lot of thaggy cavemen or something.
0:17:07 > 0:17:09You know...
0:17:09 > 0:17:12I'm picking up all kinds of rubbish now from the bottom
0:17:12 > 0:17:16of the can which is sort of good.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20Sort of fragments, things happening.
0:17:20 > 0:17:21Turn it over.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40I've not much colour left.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42Let me think what I've got.
0:17:42 > 0:17:43BELL RINGS
0:18:01 > 0:18:03That's what I mean about panicking!
0:18:03 > 0:18:05HE LAUGHS
0:18:29 > 0:18:33INTERVIEWER: What things are you hoping to pick up on at this stage?
0:18:33 > 0:18:35HE LAUGHS
0:18:36 > 0:18:38I don't know, really.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43I mean, it's all...panic, panic at this point.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46I mean, I'm trying to coax the painting along,
0:18:46 > 0:18:50but I'm not trying to... impose on it, you know.
0:18:50 > 0:18:55I'm not trying to force a... a rigid idea on it.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59So things are just happening.
0:18:59 > 0:19:01I'm letting the paint...
0:19:01 > 0:19:03trying to let the paint work for me, you know,
0:19:03 > 0:19:06trying to let the paint do things for me.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09It always amuses me when they...
0:19:09 > 0:19:11People say they've been having problems,
0:19:11 > 0:19:14nervous problems or suicidal problems,
0:19:14 > 0:19:17and they get them into painting as a form of therapy.
0:19:17 > 0:19:19HE CHUCKLES
0:19:19 > 0:19:20And that always amuses me because I think
0:19:20 > 0:19:22if you want to drive somebody crazy,
0:19:22 > 0:19:24the thing to do is to get them painting.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27I mean, it's such a nerve-racking business,
0:19:27 > 0:19:30I don't see how anybody could relax with it.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46I think when you look at a painting, and you look at what's there,
0:19:46 > 0:19:48I think very often in my case...
0:19:51 > 0:19:54..the charge I get back from it is I get after-images back.
0:19:56 > 0:20:00So I often tend to paint the after-images in.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02I mean, somebody pointed that out to me.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05I didn't really notice it, but...
0:20:05 > 0:20:07So that if I...
0:20:07 > 0:20:10You know, I'll tend to put something that's a kind of...
0:20:10 > 0:20:12an opposite colour,
0:20:12 > 0:20:14or a colour that is perhaps...
0:20:14 > 0:20:19discordant with the one that's on there.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31The reason I like to sometimes put colour on this way,
0:20:31 > 0:20:34although it's terribly wasteful,
0:20:34 > 0:20:40is that it's a way of backing into...form,
0:20:40 > 0:20:46but at the same time not having to be inhibited by the hand
0:20:46 > 0:20:48and the sort of skills of the wrist.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52I mean, it allows for an element of control,
0:20:52 > 0:20:54but an element of chance at the same time.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34I've been knifing paintings for quite a long time now,
0:21:34 > 0:21:36I don't know why.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39Somehow I think that it's the density of the loading you get on it
0:21:39 > 0:21:41you don't get with a brush.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52The marks record the energy of the stroke,
0:21:52 > 0:21:55but it's no use just having energy in the stroke,
0:21:55 > 0:21:59because otherwise you've just got the record of energy.
0:21:59 > 0:22:03The image itself has got to build that energy that it can sustain.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11I feel like Nancy Kominsky!
0:22:11 > 0:22:13Did you ever see that?
0:22:13 > 0:22:14HE CHUCKLES
0:22:14 > 0:22:16She teaches painting on television.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28SCRAPING
0:22:40 > 0:22:41Rougher the better.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44Because they get tidy too quick.
0:22:48 > 0:22:49It's easy to tidy them up, you know,
0:22:49 > 0:22:52if you get some kind of vigour into it at this point.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54You've got nothing to lose.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56You've got absolutely nothing to lose.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59You might...you know, you might even gain something.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01BANGING
0:23:12 > 0:23:15I'm doing it because I'm encouraging the paint to...to run...
0:23:15 > 0:23:18a little,
0:23:18 > 0:23:23but I'm arresting it because... I feel that it's part of the...
0:23:23 > 0:23:29It gives a directional pull to the movement of that area of the painting
0:23:29 > 0:23:33which I suspect, or hopefully, will help the picture.
0:23:36 > 0:23:41Also helps to overlap those colours so that they...
0:23:41 > 0:23:43you know...
0:23:46 > 0:23:48..tie into each other.
0:24:17 > 0:24:18HE SIGHS
0:24:26 > 0:24:29Trying to...decide what to do with it.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33That's what you can't show, you know, the hours
0:24:33 > 0:24:35that you spend just looking.
0:24:40 > 0:24:41BELL RINGS
0:24:57 > 0:24:59- Terrible, isn't it?! - Give it a chance, bloody hell!
0:24:59 > 0:25:01How many days have you been working on it?
0:25:01 > 0:25:03Two...two days.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10It's a real mess.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16You're using a hell of a lot of colour, aren't you? Bloody hell.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21Well, most of it will get obliterated, I suppose, in the end.
0:25:21 > 0:25:24It's such a wasteful way, but I can't...
0:25:24 > 0:25:25see any other way of doing it.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27I hate to see all that paint getting wasted.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30Yes, I know that feeling!
0:25:32 > 0:25:33Expensive.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36- Are you going to put blocks in? - I don't know.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38Don't know yet. I'm not sure.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40You don't often use black, do you?
0:25:40 > 0:25:43No, I shall have a good think when everybody's gone home.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45THEY CHUCKLE
0:26:19 > 0:26:20HE SIGHS
0:26:29 > 0:26:33I don't know if I should do this, but I'm going to just do it anyway,
0:26:33 > 0:26:37cos I'm not satisfied with what's there.
0:26:37 > 0:26:38So, see what happens.
0:26:42 > 0:26:43HARSH SCRAPING
0:27:30 > 0:27:31HE SIGHS
0:27:51 > 0:27:54Everything... everything's a danger, you know,
0:27:54 > 0:27:57I mean, getting too fiddly, um...
0:27:57 > 0:28:00Sort of nagging at a painting, and not, you know...
0:28:00 > 0:28:03instead of just leaving it, you know.
0:28:03 > 0:28:05Then at the same time...
0:28:07 > 0:28:10..you've always to have to walk that tightrope between,
0:28:10 > 0:28:13on the one hand...fussing with a painting, on the other hand,
0:28:13 > 0:28:17just leaving it so that's it not really...you know,
0:28:17 > 0:28:19it's not really come together.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21So you're trying to make the painting come together,
0:28:21 > 0:28:24you're trying to almost trick the painting into happening.
0:28:24 > 0:28:26And, um...
0:28:26 > 0:28:30as though...I mean, you've almost got to like not care about it.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33On the other hand, you've got to exercise some control,
0:28:33 > 0:28:36but if you have too much control, then nothing's going to happen.
0:28:36 > 0:28:38You know, so...
0:28:38 > 0:28:40I don't quite know what to do next.
0:28:40 > 0:28:41At this point,
0:28:41 > 0:28:45I mean, I don't generally spend a whole day on a painting at this point
0:28:45 > 0:28:48unless the painting is really hopeless.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51At the moment, I think there are lots of things about the painting
0:28:51 > 0:28:54that I like and maybe that's a bad thing, I don't know.
0:28:54 > 0:28:56Because maybe they'll have to go in the end.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59But at the moment, they...
0:28:59 > 0:29:02There are certain things I like about it but I really can't see it,
0:29:02 > 0:29:05I'm too close to it, and it's all wet
0:29:05 > 0:29:08and I just have to look at it in a more reflective way later,
0:29:08 > 0:29:13when it's dried and when everybody's gone home, and so on.
0:29:17 > 0:29:19I don't know, it's just...
0:29:19 > 0:29:22I think I can probably even do it... When the painting's dry...
0:29:22 > 0:29:24Maybe it's not even the form there.
0:29:24 > 0:29:26Maybe it's not even the shape.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29Maybe it's just...that tone.
0:29:29 > 0:29:32Maybe it wants one... You know, you can change a whole painting
0:29:32 > 0:29:36just by putting one...changing one tone of the same colour.
0:29:36 > 0:29:38Just a fraction.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41And maybe I can just sort of sneak that in,
0:29:41 > 0:29:45and make that more solid, because there it's just floating away
0:29:45 > 0:29:48into something I don't want.
0:29:49 > 0:29:53But the general kind of build up...
0:29:53 > 0:29:57across the painting, you know, from top to bottom
0:29:57 > 0:30:01and these related forms and things,
0:30:01 > 0:30:04and this thing, and, you know,
0:30:04 > 0:30:06this to that.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09I mean, something's coming. I don't know if it's any good or not,
0:30:09 > 0:30:12but I mean...something's... something's coming.
0:30:18 > 0:30:20I want to make simple paintings
0:30:20 > 0:30:23but I don't want to make simple paintings that are simple-minded,
0:30:23 > 0:30:25I want to make paintings that become simple
0:30:25 > 0:30:28through a synthesis, and maybe I'm not there yet.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31Maybe I can't make a simple painting at the moment.
0:30:31 > 0:30:34Maybe I have to go through this complexity.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37And if I have to go through it, then, you know, I have to go through it.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43When you see a great painting,
0:30:43 > 0:30:46it's kind of effortless.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48And I'm not making effortless paintings.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52But then I think you have to make... go through all that complexity
0:30:52 > 0:30:55and struggle before you can make an effortless painting.
0:30:55 > 0:30:59I mean, when you see a really great Miro, it's just...
0:30:59 > 0:31:01like that, you know.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04Or a great Japanese drawing or something, it's just like that.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06I can't do that yet.
0:31:08 > 0:31:10It's a life or death thing, you know.
0:31:10 > 0:31:12I mean, I'd hate to lose this painting.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15Maybe we won't lose it, maybe we'll
0:31:15 > 0:31:18manage to do something with it, turn it around or something.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20There are good things in it.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23It's just that I don't quite know how to do it.
0:31:23 > 0:31:27But I may hit on it, I may come in here one morning,
0:31:27 > 0:31:31unfortunately I may come in here one morning when you're not here.
0:31:31 > 0:31:34And just suddenly think, "Oh, well, you know,
0:31:34 > 0:31:36"maybe I'll just do something."
0:31:36 > 0:31:38That's very often how it happens, actually.
0:31:38 > 0:31:42You think, "Well, I'm not painting today, forget this painting,
0:31:42 > 0:31:43"I'm not going to do it."
0:31:43 > 0:31:45Then you go in and you say,
0:31:45 > 0:31:47"Well, I'll just, maybe I'll just put this on here," you know.
0:31:47 > 0:31:51And then maybe in five minutes, ten minutes, you've just found the key
0:31:51 > 0:31:53to lock in the whole idea.
0:31:53 > 0:31:57But it's finding the key and just hitting the right spot, you know.
0:31:57 > 0:32:02And I can't guarantee it, I can't guarantee I can do it on the camera.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05It's just... It's the way it is.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15Of course, you feel very feeble at times, you know,
0:32:15 > 0:32:16you feel very vulnerable.
0:32:22 > 0:32:23I don't know what you want me to say
0:32:23 > 0:32:26I mean, you feel very vulnerable.
0:32:26 > 0:32:28But then you just have to keep going.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33You just have to look at the people
0:32:33 > 0:32:36that you respect, that you admire, and...
0:32:37 > 0:32:40You know, most of the critics I've ever met in my life
0:32:40 > 0:32:44are pretty damn feeble against the people I respect,
0:32:44 > 0:32:48so that's a pretty firm, you know, backup.
0:32:53 > 0:32:58I'm not interested in the English idiosyncratic tradition
0:32:58 > 0:33:03of, say, Rowlandson, Hogarth, Hockney, etc.
0:33:03 > 0:33:05I don't know why that is.
0:33:05 > 0:33:11I'm much more attracted to the idea of paintings that mystify me,
0:33:11 > 0:33:13that overwhelm me.
0:33:13 > 0:33:14Um...
0:33:20 > 0:33:25I'm more interested in, you know, jungle, desert, mountains.
0:33:25 > 0:33:29I'm not interested in painting pictures that resemble,
0:33:29 > 0:33:32you know, neat English gardens with gnomes.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36I like my paintings to overwhelm somebody.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38I mean, the sort of painting I like would overwhelm them,
0:33:38 > 0:33:41would make them think about it afterwards.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43It would, you know, blow their minds.
0:33:43 > 0:33:44That's what I'm interested in.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05- All right? - Yes.
0:34:11 > 0:34:13- Are you on? - Yes, I'm on.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16How's that look, John?
0:34:16 > 0:34:18It looks fine.