Sonny Rollins: Beyond the Notes

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0:00:21 > 0:00:22SEAGULL CALLS

0:00:25 > 0:00:28In 1948, a brilliant young musician left high school in Harlem

0:00:28 > 0:00:30and made his first record.

0:00:32 > 0:00:36By 1959, he had become one of the two or three most original

0:00:36 > 0:00:38and influential musicians in jazz.

0:00:38 > 0:00:40Sonny Rollins was 29 years old

0:00:40 > 0:00:44and, at the height of his career, he quit.

0:00:46 > 0:00:50Two years later, a story circulated about the sound of a lonely saxophone

0:00:50 > 0:00:53high above the traffic on the Williamsburg Bridge.

0:00:53 > 0:00:56I've seen a lot of great musicians, you know,

0:00:56 > 0:01:02that never really had a chance to really express themselves, you know.

0:01:02 > 0:01:05It was always kept into the small area of the club

0:01:05 > 0:01:11and with the club goes the whisky, the, er, you know,

0:01:11 > 0:01:13the degrading things, so to speak,

0:01:13 > 0:01:17so that, er, it kills off a lot of people.

0:01:18 > 0:01:20It kills off a lot of people.

0:01:20 > 0:01:21SAXOPHONE PLAYS

0:01:41 > 0:01:43You can blow your horn,

0:01:43 > 0:01:47and if you get great on it, you'll live a good life, so to speak,

0:01:47 > 0:01:51you know, and the public don't really give a damn as long as you sound good.

0:01:51 > 0:01:53They don't care what you do.

0:01:54 > 0:01:56You can use drugs, you can do anything you want,

0:01:56 > 0:01:59as long as you sound good when you get up on the stand, well...

0:02:00 > 0:02:03..I don't know if it's worth that to me.

0:02:03 > 0:02:06When I first went away and went on the bridge,

0:02:06 > 0:02:09at that point, I was making pretty good money

0:02:09 > 0:02:11and I was, you know, doing OK...

0:02:12 > 0:02:16..but, you know, it wasn't enough. I mean, it wasn't it at all for me.

0:02:21 > 0:02:25In 1967, as a young film-maker, I followed this extraordinary man,

0:02:25 > 0:02:28still rejecting stereotype and compromise,

0:02:28 > 0:02:32back onto the bridge to make a film about his continuing search

0:02:32 > 0:02:35for new meaning in his music and his life.

0:02:48 > 0:02:52In 2010, after 40 more years

0:02:52 > 0:02:54of his quest to be understood through his music,

0:02:54 > 0:02:57he gathered together some of the jazz legends

0:02:57 > 0:02:59who had accompanied him on his journey,

0:02:59 > 0:03:03including Roy Haynes, Jim Hall and Ornette Coleman

0:03:03 > 0:03:07in a historic celebration of his 80th birthday

0:03:07 > 0:03:09and the history of his music.

0:03:22 > 0:03:26He's just an important man in American culture and history.

0:03:26 > 0:03:28You could argue he's the greatest living jazz musician.

0:03:28 > 0:03:30You would think that

0:03:30 > 0:03:33you're going to hear something you've heard 30 years ago,

0:03:33 > 0:03:35and he will bring something completely different.

0:03:35 > 0:03:38Every show is unique, every moment is unique.

0:03:38 > 0:03:40Nothing about him is canned.

0:03:40 > 0:03:44There's something about him that's sort of spiritual.

0:03:44 > 0:03:48# Da-da-da, da-da-da! # I love it, I love it.

0:03:48 > 0:03:52There's something that, er, transcends the everyday.

0:03:52 > 0:03:56He progressively gives you something to aspire to.

0:03:56 > 0:03:59- And you can tell that he's still enjoying it.- Sonny is a monster.

0:03:59 > 0:04:01Monster.

0:04:01 > 0:04:04I am amazed that at 80 he still has it.

0:04:04 > 0:04:09He's doing his thing, he's doing it better than most people I know.

0:04:09 > 0:04:13It's just... It's fabulous and he's still getting a kick out of it too.

0:04:13 > 0:04:16There aren't many legendary figures of his stature,

0:04:16 > 0:04:17so you guys are really lucky

0:04:17 > 0:04:19- to be getting to hear him.- Yeah.

0:04:20 > 0:04:26Sonny actually embodies what jazz really is,

0:04:26 > 0:04:31because jazz is really about making the present work

0:04:31 > 0:04:35and meeting it face to face and doing something with it,

0:04:35 > 0:04:39and that is what jazz is actually about.

0:04:39 > 0:04:41It's about summoning the power of the present.

0:04:41 > 0:04:48I played a concert with Sonny in 1958 or '59.

0:04:48 > 0:04:49I said, "Oh, shit,

0:04:49 > 0:04:50"did I make a mistake?"

0:04:50 > 0:04:52you know, "I don't know whether

0:04:52 > 0:04:54"I'm ready for Sonny Rollins."

0:04:54 > 0:04:55APPLAUSE

0:04:57 > 0:05:01I never forget this the promoter came to us and said,

0:05:01 > 0:05:03you know, "Is Sonny here?"

0:05:03 > 0:05:05And we had hadn't seen Sonny,

0:05:05 > 0:05:07we didn't know whether he was there or not.

0:05:09 > 0:05:13It was like he picked his moment to go

0:05:13 > 0:05:15and he tore it up.

0:05:22 > 0:05:27We'd been together since that and it's been almost 50 years, I guess.

0:05:28 > 0:05:33It's a rapport, I feel things that he's going to do.

0:05:43 > 0:05:47I'd like to really create every night differently.

0:05:50 > 0:05:53It depends a lot on the musicians,

0:05:53 > 0:05:55cos a lot of people feel,

0:05:55 > 0:05:58"Gee, you should be able to control everything,

0:05:58 > 0:06:02"cos you're Sonny and you should be able to..."

0:06:02 > 0:06:04but that's not what jazz...

0:06:04 > 0:06:06Jazz is communicable thing,

0:06:06 > 0:06:10so you've got to sort of make it up as you go, you know.

0:06:20 > 0:06:21I met Sonny 30 years ago,

0:06:21 > 0:06:25so...I don't know if even Sonny knows this story.

0:06:25 > 0:06:29I was working in a record store in the Village, here in New York...

0:06:32 > 0:06:34..and he was recording in front of me

0:06:34 > 0:06:36at Electric Lady Studio...

0:06:39 > 0:06:40..and the guy runs out,

0:06:40 > 0:06:44and he says, "You're Sammy Figueroa." I said, "Yeah."

0:06:51 > 0:06:54He says, "Listen, can you come across the street?"

0:06:57 > 0:07:00And I said, "Yeah."

0:07:06 > 0:07:10And my boss says to me, "You're taking too long. What are you doing?"

0:07:10 > 0:07:13I said, "Nothing. Just walking around."

0:07:19 > 0:07:21Well, he fired me...

0:07:21 > 0:07:25that day, but I did join Sonny's band.

0:08:16 > 0:08:21When somebody stares at you with a sax two inches away,

0:08:21 > 0:08:23you've got to come up with something.

0:08:25 > 0:08:27It's all part of this, er...

0:08:27 > 0:08:30this wonderful dance that happens when you're playing jazz.

0:08:32 > 0:08:34It's about the moment -

0:08:34 > 0:08:37what's out there, what can you pull from the air?

0:08:37 > 0:08:41You put a little bit of rhythm, harmony, excitement, eloquence...

0:08:41 > 0:08:45You put all that recipe and then your palate goes nuts.

0:08:45 > 0:08:49He's the greatest culinary musician I've ever seen in my life!

0:10:42 > 0:10:45Watching Sonny sometimes on stage,

0:10:45 > 0:10:49and I know some of the guys in the band who are younger don't hear it,

0:10:49 > 0:10:53Sonny will go through the history of the saxophone,

0:10:53 > 0:10:56and what he comes up with and I hear it

0:10:56 > 0:11:01and inside I'm laughing...is all I can do not to laugh out loud,

0:11:01 > 0:11:04and he could do that within one tune.

0:11:51 > 0:11:54It takes you to a higher level of consciousness

0:11:54 > 0:11:55where he comes from,

0:11:55 > 0:11:59but after you leave, you go, "What...what just happened?

0:11:59 > 0:12:01"What the hell just happened?"

0:12:01 > 0:12:03"It doesn't matter what happened, it happened."

0:12:15 > 0:12:17CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:12:17 > 0:12:19WHISTLING

0:12:26 > 0:12:29Every time you finish playing, and I shake my head

0:12:29 > 0:12:34and say, "Damn, how can he do it?"

0:12:34 > 0:12:37CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:12:37 > 0:12:41Ladies and gentlemen, now we're going to bring

0:12:41 > 0:12:45some of the greatest people that are performing jazz,

0:12:45 > 0:12:50our world music - jazz, THE music,

0:12:50 > 0:12:53the king of all music...

0:12:56 > 0:13:01..the umbrella under which all other musics exist.

0:13:01 > 0:13:04APPLAUSE AND CHEERING

0:13:06 > 0:13:12And we have with us one of the young new outstanding people -

0:13:12 > 0:13:18he's really came up in the tradition of Ray Brown and all these people,

0:13:18 > 0:13:21the great Oscar Pettiford and all of these great people,

0:13:21 > 0:13:22and he's here with us

0:13:22 > 0:13:27as bassist here and his name is Christian McBride.

0:13:27 > 0:13:28CHEERING

0:13:28 > 0:13:32'It's sort of the catch-22 in jazz.'

0:13:32 > 0:13:33To be a great jazz musician,

0:13:33 > 0:13:36you have to learn everything you can possibly learn,

0:13:36 > 0:13:37and then forget it.

0:13:39 > 0:13:42'Sonny has always been about progressing.'

0:13:44 > 0:13:46He certainly is very nostalgic.

0:13:46 > 0:13:51He loves to talk about, er, his early days in Harlem,

0:13:51 > 0:13:53but he never lets that...

0:13:53 > 0:13:57that's never like an ankle bracelet for him.

0:13:57 > 0:13:59Yeah, I was born in Harlem.

0:13:59 > 0:14:03You know, I was very fortunate to be born into that music scene up there,

0:14:03 > 0:14:06you know, it was a great, great scene -

0:14:06 > 0:14:08there was music all around me, you know,

0:14:08 > 0:14:11hearing a lot of jazz and gospel.

0:14:11 > 0:14:13My mother came from St Thomas.

0:14:13 > 0:14:17She used to take me to some of these calypso dances and stuff,

0:14:17 > 0:14:19you know, that's one of the musics we heard.

0:14:21 > 0:14:24- THE YOUNGER SONNY:- Duke Ellington lived on my block at one time.

0:14:24 > 0:14:28Of course, he was always going and coming.

0:14:28 > 0:14:32My family insisted that I play the piano.

0:14:32 > 0:14:35I was more interested in playing ball in the streets, you know,

0:14:35 > 0:14:38so they gave up on me as far as that was concerned.

0:14:38 > 0:14:42- THE OLDER SONNY:- One of the tenement houses we lived in used to be

0:14:42 > 0:14:47an after-hours joint and everybody...Fats Waller and everybody played there,

0:14:47 > 0:14:51and then Fats Waller used to play right across the street from where we lived.

0:14:51 > 0:14:52# To say that things are jumpin'

0:14:52 > 0:14:53# Leaves not a single doubt

0:14:53 > 0:14:55# Watch all these cats watch everything

0:14:55 > 0:14:57# When you hear somebody shout

0:14:57 > 0:14:59# This joint is jumpin' Really jumpin'

0:14:59 > 0:15:01# Come in, cats, and check your hat

0:15:01 > 0:15:03# And I mean this joint is jumpin'... #

0:15:03 > 0:15:08And around that time, I was going to an elementary school in 135th Street

0:15:08 > 0:15:12and right across the street was a nightclub,

0:15:12 > 0:15:18and, er, in the window was a picture of Louis Jordan

0:15:18 > 0:15:21and here he was with this beautiful shiny sax, you know,

0:15:21 > 0:15:23he had, like, a Zephyr, a King Zephyr,

0:15:23 > 0:15:28so I began letting my mother know that I'd like a saxophone.

0:15:29 > 0:15:32I had one cousin, we went to his house and then, er...

0:15:32 > 0:15:35he had this saxophone under the bed.

0:15:35 > 0:15:38She said, "Oh, well, Sonny likes saxophones."

0:15:38 > 0:15:43So he said, "Oh, yeah," so he went in the bedroom and he pulled out this case, you know,

0:15:43 > 0:15:47and here was this beautiful, gleaming gold horn, you know.

0:15:47 > 0:15:50And the velvet... dark velvet case,

0:15:50 > 0:15:54and that was it for me.

0:15:54 > 0:15:58I can still go to a music store and just watch saxophones

0:15:58 > 0:16:00and just look at 'em in the window.

0:16:00 > 0:16:01SHOP BELL TINGS

0:16:01 > 0:16:04The saxophone you liked best of all was the oldest one I had.

0:16:04 > 0:16:05Oh, yeah. It was lovely.

0:16:05 > 0:16:08- It was the first one you had as a boy.- This is it.

0:16:08 > 0:16:12- Maybe I'll take it back from you. - Yeah.- You can you give me a good price on it?

0:16:22 > 0:16:27So I finally convinced my mother to buy me a saxophone, you know,

0:16:27 > 0:16:30and in those days, it was sort of the Depression days,

0:16:30 > 0:16:33so it wasn't easy for her to do...

0:16:33 > 0:16:37and then I began to get teachers,

0:16:37 > 0:16:38but then the main bulk of my work

0:16:38 > 0:16:40was done at home in my closet,

0:16:40 > 0:16:42you know, I would go in the closet

0:16:42 > 0:16:46and practise and I'd be in there for hours and hours and hours, you know.

0:16:51 > 0:16:55I had one neighbour that was very good, you know,

0:16:55 > 0:16:56and he would always say,

0:16:56 > 0:16:58"Stay in this, Sonny, keep it up,"

0:16:58 > 0:17:00and, "Boy, I heard you today.

0:17:00 > 0:17:02"Keep playing," you know.

0:17:04 > 0:17:11And we have also one of the all-time great drummers

0:17:11 > 0:17:13in the history of our jazz music.

0:17:14 > 0:17:20Er, he came tonight unannounced and his name is Roy Haynes.

0:17:20 > 0:17:22CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:17:28 > 0:17:30'Sonny knew some people that I knew.

0:17:31 > 0:17:33'I saw him one night'

0:17:33 > 0:17:36and he was standing in front of this restaurant

0:17:36 > 0:17:37and I said, "What's up?

0:17:37 > 0:17:39He said, "I had a little gig,"

0:17:39 > 0:17:41and I said, "Oh, this guy is big-time."

0:17:41 > 0:17:43I said that to myself, of course, you know.

0:17:43 > 0:17:45Late on, I start hearing... you know, hearing his name.

0:17:45 > 0:17:47He was a great player already.

0:17:49 > 0:17:54We started out playing in my own little kid bands, you know.

0:17:54 > 0:17:57We had a lot of guys that really came out, you know,

0:17:57 > 0:18:02which were people like Jackie McLean and Arthur Taylor and Kenny Drew.

0:18:04 > 0:18:09But, er, we played for dances, mostly it was dances.

0:18:13 > 0:18:17And there were always a coterie of, er, jazz fans,

0:18:17 > 0:18:20who would sort of come up towards the grandstand and listen

0:18:20 > 0:18:22to the music, you know,

0:18:22 > 0:18:26and get excited about what the guys were playing,

0:18:26 > 0:18:29but it started out for us playing for people dancing.

0:18:34 > 0:18:39So I used to go to Minton's Playhouse, the jam sessions,

0:18:39 > 0:18:41and a guy heard me one night -

0:18:41 > 0:18:44he said, "Well, look, Sonny, you sound a good kid,

0:18:44 > 0:18:47"you come up and play in-between these stars.

0:18:47 > 0:18:51"You play intermission while they're on their breaks,"

0:18:51 > 0:18:54so I said, "Oh, wow, great!"

0:18:54 > 0:18:58That's when Miles heard me, you know, cos Miles said, "Oh, man!" you know,

0:18:58 > 0:19:00"What are you doing? Who are you playing with?

0:19:00 > 0:19:04"I want you to play with me. I want you to play with my band," you know.

0:19:04 > 0:19:07I said, "Wow! OK, man," you know.

0:19:10 > 0:19:15In those days, we used to go to the movies every week -

0:19:15 > 0:19:16that was the big thing.

0:19:16 > 0:19:19I used to hear a lot of these songs -

0:19:19 > 0:19:24things like Jerome Kern, who was one of my favourite American composers.

0:19:26 > 0:19:29# A fine romance

0:19:29 > 0:19:32# My good fellow

0:19:32 > 0:19:34# You take romance

0:19:34 > 0:19:37# I'll take Jello... #

0:19:37 > 0:19:41I remember hearing Swing Time. It had some great tunes in there -

0:19:41 > 0:19:44A Fine Romance - a lot of these songs stayed with me, really.

0:19:44 > 0:19:46They stuck in my mind,

0:19:46 > 0:19:50you know, so I never just approach it as a melody without the words.

0:19:50 > 0:19:54It helped me to interpret a song, knowing the words, you know.

0:19:54 > 0:19:57# With no insults and all morals... #

0:19:57 > 0:19:59When I went to the movie house,

0:19:59 > 0:20:03Coleman Hawkins was sitting up in the front of the theatre,

0:20:03 > 0:20:07right in the front seats, you know - course, he was my idol.

0:20:14 > 0:20:16Coleman lived very close.

0:20:16 > 0:20:21In fact, all of the prominent black people in the community

0:20:21 > 0:20:24lived in that area, it was called Sugar Hill.

0:20:24 > 0:20:28It was sort of the area where all of the well-to-do people lived.

0:21:03 > 0:21:07There is a true story about my going to Coleman Hawkins' doorstep

0:21:07 > 0:21:10when I was I was a kid with this 8x10 photo, you know,

0:21:10 > 0:21:11waiting for him to come home,

0:21:11 > 0:21:13so that he would sign it.

0:21:17 > 0:21:19I knew he lived in this building,

0:21:19 > 0:21:22so I went by his house and waited for him to come home,

0:21:22 > 0:21:24so then he came in.

0:21:24 > 0:21:28I said, "Oh, Mr Hawk, would you sign this?"

0:21:28 > 0:21:33And there was this great picture by a photographer, James J Kreigsmann.

0:21:37 > 0:21:39You know, he signed it and everything.

0:21:39 > 0:21:42I took it home and put it in my book, you know.

0:22:06 > 0:22:13Then in the next few years, I began to rehearse with the great Thelonius Monk.

0:22:17 > 0:22:20Monk was like, er, my guru.

0:22:20 > 0:22:24When I began playing with Monk, I was still in high school...

0:22:25 > 0:22:28..and we used to go to Monk's house after school...

0:22:29 > 0:22:32..and he'd have this music, you know,

0:22:32 > 0:22:35and the musicians were looking at the music and say, "Well, Monk,

0:22:35 > 0:22:40"this isn't possible, you can't play this, nobody can do this, man.

0:22:40 > 0:22:42"What are you talking about?"

0:22:44 > 0:22:48But by the time the night was over, everybody was playing it.

0:22:55 > 0:22:57I wanted to be like Monk.

0:22:57 > 0:23:02I wanted to be a person that was into music only. That was all...

0:23:02 > 0:23:06Monk always said that music is...

0:23:06 > 0:23:08first, last and always music,

0:23:08 > 0:23:11and that's how I felt, you know.

0:23:15 > 0:23:18I've been extremely fortunate to play with these guys -

0:23:18 > 0:23:20Roy Haynes and all these people.

0:23:24 > 0:23:28You know, somebody you knew a long time ago and you still get together,

0:23:28 > 0:23:31you know, that's something special.

0:23:37 > 0:23:42Ever since I can remember, I was playing drums.

0:23:42 > 0:23:48I was always looking for different approaches to the instrument,

0:23:48 > 0:23:54and during that time, so-called bebop was right up my sleeve,

0:23:54 > 0:23:56I was ready for that.

0:23:58 > 0:24:02A lot of the older musicians, they would be hard on a drummer,

0:24:02 > 0:24:05they would mess with your mind and one of the things they would say,

0:24:05 > 0:24:09"A drummer is not supposed to break the rhythm."

0:24:09 > 0:24:12He's supposed to, you know, just keep it going.

0:24:16 > 0:24:19I was breaking the rhythm, but it was still swinging

0:24:19 > 0:24:22and that was one of the main things that kept me on here,

0:24:22 > 0:24:25being able to swing, give them that feeling.

0:24:33 > 0:24:36# Ding-ding di-ding didi-ding. #

0:24:36 > 0:24:38Papa Jo, Big Sid Catlett.

0:24:42 > 0:24:45And I listened to all of those guys

0:24:45 > 0:24:49and I still do a lot of that, not the way they did it exactly, but...

0:24:55 > 0:24:57..it's still a swinging...

0:25:00 > 0:25:01..a feeling...

0:25:03 > 0:25:04..a pulsation.

0:25:04 > 0:25:05CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:25:11 > 0:25:13SAXOPHONE PLAYS

0:25:14 > 0:25:17Living in New York was exciting.

0:25:19 > 0:25:23I used to hear some of the old-timers say, "I wouldn't leave Harlem to go to heaven."

0:25:32 > 0:25:36It was like that, you know, even to go to 52nd Street

0:25:36 > 0:25:38and see all the great players

0:25:38 > 0:25:42that I had read about and heard their music

0:25:42 > 0:25:45on 52nd Street was like a dream, man.

0:25:56 > 0:26:01- SONNY:- I was among the people that used to go down to 52nd Street,

0:26:01 > 0:26:04so Bird became a big idol

0:26:04 > 0:26:07and we used to follow him around, you know, and, er...

0:26:07 > 0:26:09he was really very tolerant of us

0:26:09 > 0:26:13because you're just a bunch of kids, as a matter of fact.

0:26:21 > 0:26:24The world of jazz and music...

0:26:24 > 0:26:30People are not... doing it by themselves,

0:26:30 > 0:26:32there's a higher force

0:26:32 > 0:26:35that takes people and picks people

0:26:35 > 0:26:37and says, "You are the one. You are the one."

0:26:42 > 0:26:44I'm talking about Roy Hargrove.

0:26:44 > 0:26:46CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

0:26:51 > 0:26:53It's indescribable, what it is.

0:26:53 > 0:26:57I mean, even when I went to the rehearsal, it just seemed like

0:26:57 > 0:27:02I was in the presence of this, you know, grand deity, you know what I'm saying?

0:27:03 > 0:27:05PLAYS THREE NOTES

0:27:07 > 0:27:08LAUGHTER

0:27:10 > 0:27:13It felt like I was in a room with God, you know,

0:27:13 > 0:27:16but, you know, when you're in the presence of somebody like that,

0:27:16 > 0:27:18you can't help but the knees buckle.

0:27:18 > 0:27:20HE LAUGHS

0:27:21 > 0:27:24Something about the energy that he is projecting,

0:27:24 > 0:27:31it inspires me to want to... to at least hold my own, you know what I'm saying?

0:27:56 > 0:28:00In the beginning of my development, what kind of spurred me on

0:28:00 > 0:28:02and what made me want to play

0:28:02 > 0:28:07was the emotional quality that you can put through the music

0:28:07 > 0:28:12and I believe in playing with as much feeling as possible.

0:28:12 > 0:28:18You can play a lot of notes, but when you have the heart involved, people feel that.

0:28:38 > 0:28:42My father was a music lover and he collected a lot of records.

0:28:42 > 0:28:45When I was a kid, I'd just go through them and read them.

0:28:45 > 0:28:48I was fascinated by the whole spectrum of them.

0:28:49 > 0:28:54When I got old enough to try to pick up an instrument, I heard a band play at my school

0:28:54 > 0:28:58and they were young kids, like nine, ten years old,

0:28:58 > 0:29:01but they knew how to improvise something based on blues

0:29:01 > 0:29:04and when I saw them doing that,

0:29:04 > 0:29:06I was like, "OK, I want to do that too."

0:29:06 > 0:29:09"That's my thing, I want to do that."

0:29:15 > 0:29:20When I got into high school, my principal turned me on to Clifford Brown,

0:29:20 > 0:29:21and that was it.

0:29:21 > 0:29:23HE LAUGHS

0:29:23 > 0:29:30Once I heard Clifford, I felt like I was on the right path.

0:29:30 > 0:29:33I was pretty much hooked at that point.

0:29:48 > 0:29:52- THE YOUNGER SONNY:- I had gotten also involved in the drug scene at that time.

0:29:54 > 0:29:59We were following Bird, Charlie Parker, and thought that this was the right thing to do.

0:30:02 > 0:30:04He impressed upon me the fact that

0:30:04 > 0:30:08he really didn't want people following him in this way.

0:30:08 > 0:30:14He was really upset that I was kind of messing him up by doing this.

0:30:20 > 0:30:22This was one of the prime reasons

0:30:22 > 0:30:26in helping me to get off of this horrible habit.

0:30:26 > 0:30:31I was so anxious to show him, "Well, I got your message,"

0:30:31 > 0:30:32but then he died.

0:30:39 > 0:30:42- THE OLDER SONNY:- I messed myself up there for a while,

0:30:42 > 0:30:45had the wrong ideas about what it takes to play music

0:30:45 > 0:30:50and I had just come out of the hospital and, er...

0:30:50 > 0:30:54I was just getting myself strong...

0:30:54 > 0:31:00to face the music scene with all of the pitfalls.

0:31:03 > 0:31:07The guys were saying, "Oh, come on, Sonny. Come on with me, let's hang out," you know.

0:31:07 > 0:31:12That's the real sort of... you know, the devil tempting you, you know.

0:31:16 > 0:31:20That came by the club and that was a big test.

0:31:29 > 0:31:35Now this was a club where Max Roach and Clifford Brown's group were becoming big.

0:31:35 > 0:31:38I mean, I had tremendous respect for them.

0:31:38 > 0:31:42At any rate, they needed a saxophone player

0:31:42 > 0:31:47and that was the beginning of the Clifford Brown/Max Roach band

0:31:47 > 0:31:48and me as sideman.

0:32:19 > 0:32:22There was a devastating thing for many reasons -

0:32:22 > 0:32:27one being that Brownie was such a very warm, nice person,

0:32:27 > 0:32:34you know, he was very level-headed person to be such a fine musician, you know.

0:32:40 > 0:32:43He had a very, er, good influence on me,

0:32:43 > 0:32:45cos I was kind of wild at that time,

0:32:45 > 0:32:49so he was a personal loss as well as musical loss.

0:32:53 > 0:33:01On the musical side, Brownie and I had just begun to play together as a two-horn group.

0:33:01 > 0:33:03It takes a while.

0:33:03 > 0:33:04We had just gotten to the point

0:33:04 > 0:33:07where we were breathing exactly together,

0:33:07 > 0:33:08phrasing together.

0:33:08 > 0:33:10Just noticed it happening.

0:33:10 > 0:33:15That's the last job we played, prior to this crash.

0:33:32 > 0:33:36It hasn't let me down. It's always going to be here,

0:33:36 > 0:33:38because it's the foundation.

0:33:38 > 0:33:42You learn how to improvise, then there's nothing you can't do.

0:33:53 > 0:33:59If you can make music up on the spot, you don't have anything in your way.

0:33:59 > 0:34:02It's deeper than words, you know what I'm saying?

0:34:13 > 0:34:14APPLAUSE

0:34:25 > 0:34:28- THE YOUNGER SONNY:- What was beginning to happen to me

0:34:28 > 0:34:30was that I was being expected to really deliver

0:34:30 > 0:34:34great music all the time.

0:34:34 > 0:34:39My name was bigger than I thought I could support with what I was doing.

0:34:39 > 0:34:42I remember one particular job I had...

0:34:43 > 0:34:49..when I felt I wasn't really playing well enough.

0:34:49 > 0:34:53Everybody was really so excited to see me.

0:34:53 > 0:34:56I really felt I let the people down.

0:34:56 > 0:34:59I was really frustrated with myself, you know.

0:34:59 > 0:35:03That was really the genesis of this thing on the bridge.

0:35:03 > 0:35:05That's what really it was all about.

0:35:09 > 0:35:13- THE OLDER SONNY:- I was out walking two blocks from where I lived, actually.

0:35:13 > 0:35:16And I looked up, and saw these steps going up.

0:35:19 > 0:35:22I walked over the street, and walked up the steps,

0:35:22 > 0:35:27and there was this beautiful, big expanse of bridge, you know.

0:35:29 > 0:35:30Nobody up there.

0:35:40 > 0:35:44- THE YOUNGER SONNY:- Usually, I don't pay too much attention to the trains.

0:35:44 > 0:35:46I'm usually absorbed in what I'm doing.

0:35:46 > 0:35:50In a way, the atmospheric noise adds to your playing.

0:35:50 > 0:35:53All these sounds,

0:35:53 > 0:35:57because I'm sure that subconsciously I change what I'm playing

0:35:57 > 0:36:01to blend with the sound of the train. It all has its effect.

0:36:22 > 0:36:26- THE OLDER SONNY:- It just was a perfect thing that happened.

0:36:37 > 0:36:43Ladies and gentlemen, now we're going to bring to the stage

0:36:43 > 0:36:46one of the finest guitar players.

0:36:46 > 0:36:50A young gentleman I had the good fortune

0:36:50 > 0:36:53of making some records with,

0:36:53 > 0:36:56way back when I was a young boy.

0:36:58 > 0:37:00APPLAUSE

0:37:00 > 0:37:02All the guitar players really love Jim Hall.

0:37:02 > 0:37:04Jim Hall!

0:37:04 > 0:37:05APPLAUSE

0:37:14 > 0:37:17SAXOPHONE BEGINS

0:37:31 > 0:37:34I started getting notes in my mailbox from Sonny.

0:37:34 > 0:37:37He said, "Dear Jim, I'd like to talk to you about music."

0:37:37 > 0:37:39Very succinct.

0:37:39 > 0:37:40He came up to the apartment.

0:37:40 > 0:37:42He said he wanted to have this quartet,

0:37:42 > 0:37:45and he would like me to be involved in it.

0:37:49 > 0:37:51After I came back from the bridge,

0:37:51 > 0:37:54the guys were saying they didn't know what to expect from me,

0:37:54 > 0:37:56since I'd been away.

0:38:04 > 0:38:09I had the idea of having the space thing again.

0:38:09 > 0:38:12Having enough space and still having the support.

0:38:12 > 0:38:14We came on with that particular group,

0:38:14 > 0:38:17which was sort of unusual.

0:38:17 > 0:38:19And the sound was sort of different.

0:38:29 > 0:38:32The freedom that he had when we started to play...

0:38:32 > 0:38:37Sometimes, Sonny would be playing a solo and he'd play so strongly

0:38:37 > 0:38:41we'd have to just stop, and let him explore the tune

0:38:41 > 0:38:44by himself for a while. And then we'd go back into tempo.

0:38:44 > 0:38:48He'd take a piece, a composition, say All The Things You Are,

0:38:48 > 0:38:50and just take it apart.

0:38:50 > 0:38:53Then put it back together again, and we'd start again.

0:38:55 > 0:39:00I was always aware of how Sonny was really listening to what I did, too.

0:39:00 > 0:39:04Occasionally, I'd play a phrase, and he'd imitate it, suddenly,

0:39:04 > 0:39:06as a background, or something.

0:39:23 > 0:39:26He listens incredibly well.

0:39:26 > 0:39:29I can hear it on The Bridge CD.

0:39:30 > 0:39:34I like The Bridge. I like what we were able to do.

0:39:34 > 0:39:36It was my favourite.

0:39:36 > 0:39:39Cos I watch Sonny and Jim Hall.

0:39:39 > 0:39:41The way they react to each other.

0:39:54 > 0:39:55The wit between the two.

0:39:55 > 0:40:00Jim Hall's a very witty guy. Funny.

0:40:00 > 0:40:04And he and Sonny, the interplay. I just sit and listen.

0:40:26 > 0:40:30No matter how much you have in your head,

0:40:30 > 0:40:33it has to fit into the moment going on around you.

0:40:35 > 0:40:38He got me practising, I'll tell you that!

0:40:43 > 0:40:46Sometimes, in those days, it was difficult to find a place

0:40:46 > 0:40:48where we could have dinner together.

0:40:48 > 0:40:51This was in the late '50s. 1960, maybe.

0:40:51 > 0:40:55Any place down south, I would be the guy who went in to get coffee.

0:40:55 > 0:40:58People would think I was the manager.

0:41:10 > 0:41:14GUITAR SOLO ENDS AND SAXOPHONE RESUMES

0:41:14 > 0:41:16APPLAUSE

0:41:47 > 0:41:50I remember working at the Apollo Theatre with Sonny.

0:41:54 > 0:41:57I was the only pale face in there, too.

0:41:57 > 0:41:59Occasionally, people would say, "Play your solo, baby."

0:41:59 > 0:42:02Sonny would say, "Don't let them get you."

0:42:02 > 0:42:06I think he got some flak for hiring a white guy.

0:42:08 > 0:42:13So, I really do feel that music has a way of bringing people

0:42:13 > 0:42:15and thoughts together.

0:42:22 > 0:42:23APPLAUSE

0:42:40 > 0:42:43My dad's from Jamaica, and a lot of West Indians

0:42:43 > 0:42:48really look up to Western films for inspiration.

0:42:48 > 0:42:51When I looked at this, it reminded me of the stories my dad

0:42:51 > 0:42:55would tell about all those guys from those Westerns,

0:42:55 > 0:42:59who had these morals about, "If you do something to me,

0:42:59 > 0:43:03"I'm going to take my gun, load it up,

0:43:03 > 0:43:05and I'm going to go and get you.

0:43:05 > 0:43:07"I'm going to smoke you out."

0:43:07 > 0:43:10So, as you can see here, you have Sonny Rollins.

0:43:10 > 0:43:14Instead of his Colt 45, he's going to smoke you out with a tenor saxophone.

0:43:14 > 0:43:16HE LAUGHS

0:43:16 > 0:43:19So, when I saw this, it was just such a dangerous album.

0:43:19 > 0:43:21I had to possess it.

0:43:21 > 0:43:24I was 15 when I heard this record for the first time.

0:43:24 > 0:43:27This is the record that made me want to be a jazz musician.

0:43:27 > 0:43:31I don't just want to sound like Sonny Rollins,

0:43:31 > 0:43:35I want to be inspired by him to sound like myself.

0:43:35 > 0:43:40Back in the '50s, the Western gunslinger

0:43:40 > 0:43:44was the way of projecting that sense of...

0:43:46 > 0:43:49"..I am right. I know I'm right. There's an injustice,

0:43:49 > 0:43:52"and this is how justice will be served."

0:43:53 > 0:43:54He didn't conform at all.

0:43:54 > 0:43:58He really found a way to make the music more than it is.

0:44:01 > 0:44:04"America's deeply rooted in Negro culture.

0:44:04 > 0:44:07"Its colloquialism, its humour, its music.

0:44:07 > 0:44:10"How ironic that the Negro, who, more than any other people

0:44:10 > 0:44:13"can claim America's culture as his own,

0:44:13 > 0:44:15"is being persecuted and repressed,

0:44:15 > 0:44:19"that the Negro, who has exemplified the humanities in his very existence,

0:44:19 > 0:44:22"is being regarded with inhumanity."

0:44:22 > 0:44:23Who wrote this?

0:44:25 > 0:44:26HE wrote it!

0:44:26 > 0:44:28Wow!

0:44:28 > 0:44:29He was too deep.

0:44:30 > 0:44:33Well, Courtney Pine.

0:44:33 > 0:44:35Very proud of you, man.

0:44:35 > 0:44:38You're doing some important work there.

0:44:38 > 0:44:41Well, it's your fault, you know!

0:44:41 > 0:44:43THEY LAUGH

0:44:43 > 0:44:44I mean, I'm following you,

0:44:44 > 0:44:48in the sense of knowing what you're doing,

0:44:48 > 0:44:52so I hope you don't mind my saying that I'm proud of you.

0:44:54 > 0:44:57- That means a lot to me.- OK.

0:44:57 > 0:45:01- This is another saxophone player, Soweto Kinch.- What's your name? - My name's Soweto.

0:45:01 > 0:45:03- Soweto?- I'm a big fan of your work.

0:45:03 > 0:45:09- Fine. How you doing, man? - Very blessed, after seeing that. It was like a sermon in saxophone.

0:45:09 > 0:45:13- It's his first time. - Well, did you get something?- A lot.

0:45:13 > 0:45:14A great deal.

0:45:14 > 0:45:16I have one really pressing question to ask you.

0:45:16 > 0:45:19This one is on my mind a lot.

0:45:19 > 0:45:21I've been listening a lot to Freedom Suite.

0:45:21 > 0:45:25And the liner notes you wrote back then in '57.

0:45:25 > 0:45:28Did you think that playing acoustic jazz could really

0:45:28 > 0:45:29change the way people live?

0:45:33 > 0:45:37I'm not sure that I thought it might change.

0:45:37 > 0:45:43I was saying something, getting it off of my chest.

0:45:43 > 0:45:49I'm not sure that I was really thinking that it might

0:45:49 > 0:45:52really do any good to change society.

0:45:52 > 0:45:55I was kind of sceptical about that,

0:45:55 > 0:45:59but, I felt good saying it.

0:45:59 > 0:46:02I mean, I wanted to say it,

0:46:02 > 0:46:07and people like WEB Du Bois, and all that said,

0:46:07 > 0:46:10well, if you're in a position

0:46:10 > 0:46:16to say something, just do it.

0:46:16 > 0:46:20Which is OK, because I came up

0:46:20 > 0:46:24in a very activist house.

0:46:24 > 0:46:31We were following Paul Robeson and everybody, when I was a little boy.

0:46:31 > 0:46:37So, that was natural for me to make that album, you know.

0:46:51 > 0:46:53There's still a lot of racial problems in the States,

0:46:53 > 0:46:57and I'm sure in other parts of the world. England, and other places.

0:46:57 > 0:47:00But I think now we have to look at it

0:47:00 > 0:47:03in even a bigger picture than that.

0:47:03 > 0:47:05For me to say that, as a black person,

0:47:05 > 0:47:09still I feel that there is a wider picture,

0:47:09 > 0:47:11a planetary picture.

0:47:13 > 0:47:15I mean, there's a lot of bad stuff going on.

0:47:16 > 0:47:20So, my hope is that

0:47:20 > 0:47:21the music...

0:47:21 > 0:47:25at least, my hope, what I want to do. I want to try to play

0:47:25 > 0:47:31a music which somehow can address some of these problems.

0:47:31 > 0:47:33And not in a verbal way, a musical way.

0:47:38 > 0:47:41We have that feeling that we can reach people

0:47:41 > 0:47:46through that really mysterious sound of the horn

0:47:46 > 0:47:47without the words.

0:47:54 > 0:47:58The fundamental thing about the playing of music is

0:47:58 > 0:48:04it introduces a performer into an interior universe

0:48:04 > 0:48:07that plays totally by its own rules.

0:48:26 > 0:48:29It is not difficult to understand

0:48:29 > 0:48:35that Sonny Rollins would have a very deep spiritual...

0:48:35 > 0:48:40relationship to music and a sense of spiritual quest.

0:48:40 > 0:48:44Because somewhere a long the way, he probably will come upon something.

0:48:54 > 0:48:58Ladies and gentlemen, somebody told me there's somebody

0:48:58 > 0:49:00in the house

0:49:00 > 0:49:06that is going to say happy birthday to me.

0:49:06 > 0:49:11And he's someplace backstage, and he's got a horn.

0:49:11 > 0:49:15And I wish he'd come out now.

0:49:16 > 0:49:18He's here.

0:49:18 > 0:49:20He's here.

0:49:30 > 0:49:33I've talked to many musicians over the years.

0:49:33 > 0:49:37Once they get to the point

0:49:37 > 0:49:40where somebody truly starts to swing, right,

0:49:40 > 0:49:44I try to get as close to that as I possibly can.

0:49:48 > 0:49:51At that concert, so often...

0:49:52 > 0:49:57..everybody who was up there was actually trying to get to that.

0:49:57 > 0:50:00That made it different than just a virtuoso display

0:50:00 > 0:50:05of, "I'm a star. And here I am, to polish my badge once more."

0:50:05 > 0:50:08That wasn't what was going on. People came there to play,

0:50:08 > 0:50:11because they were playing with Sonny Rollins.

0:50:11 > 0:50:14You've got to go with him, because he was so powerful,

0:50:14 > 0:50:16the only choice you've got to do is go his way.

0:50:18 > 0:50:20I was backstage with Ornette Coleman.

0:50:20 > 0:50:25I said, "He's been playing like that for two hours, with no break."

0:50:26 > 0:50:30Ornette was 80, Sonny's 80.

0:50:30 > 0:50:34I think that when you've played that long,

0:50:34 > 0:50:37you can tell what you're about to step into.

0:50:37 > 0:50:39I guess I was there playing,

0:50:39 > 0:50:44because we have something in common, which is music.

0:50:44 > 0:50:46APPLAUSE

0:50:57 > 0:51:00Just the fact that he was there

0:51:00 > 0:51:04says something about the camaraderie

0:51:04 > 0:51:07between extremely high-quality musicians.

0:51:07 > 0:51:11It's rarely replicated in other art forms.

0:51:11 > 0:51:15And it never exceeds the way it comes off in jazz.

0:51:15 > 0:51:21When you have people who have real feeling and respect for each other.

0:52:06 > 0:52:09- I'm trying to find out who- I- am.

0:52:09 > 0:52:11I only know that I get up and breathe,

0:52:11 > 0:52:13and do what I have to do,

0:52:13 > 0:52:16and see if I can make what I didn't do yesterday better.

0:52:16 > 0:52:18And it's still getting better.

0:53:23 > 0:53:27When I went out to California with Max Roach, in 1956,

0:53:27 > 0:53:31this was after Brownie had died.

0:53:31 > 0:53:34That's when I met Ornette.

0:53:38 > 0:53:42And Ornette and I used to go out and play by Malibu,

0:53:42 > 0:53:44right by the ocean.

0:53:44 > 0:53:46I used to love going out and playing

0:53:46 > 0:53:48out in the open.

0:53:48 > 0:53:51Any place where I'm playing up against the elements.

0:53:51 > 0:53:54This, like the bridge, was such a beautiful place.

0:53:54 > 0:53:58So, anyway, the sound of the surf and everything

0:53:58 > 0:54:03was a perfect backdrop for practising.

0:54:03 > 0:54:08In fact, I wanted to make a record out by the surf,

0:54:08 > 0:54:11just playing with the surf coming in, you know.

0:54:20 > 0:54:23We got to be good buddies.

0:54:23 > 0:54:26When Ornette came to New York with his band,

0:54:26 > 0:54:29I liked playing with them,

0:54:29 > 0:54:32and I sort of liked the concept that they were using.

0:54:32 > 0:54:35Freedom.

0:54:35 > 0:54:38The music is in the air, and the music is every place.

0:54:38 > 0:54:41You know, it doesn't have to begin and end.

0:54:43 > 0:54:45I don't have anything that I'm concerned about

0:54:45 > 0:54:48that is the past, or the future, or the present.

0:54:48 > 0:54:51That's not something I want to major in.

0:54:53 > 0:54:55I want to major in eternity.

0:54:55 > 0:54:58ON FILM: I'm in love with eternity.

0:54:58 > 0:54:59What I mean by that is that...

0:55:02 > 0:55:04..I don't care about how many changes

0:55:04 > 0:55:06that goes on, you know.

0:55:06 > 0:55:08As longs as it keeps going on.

0:55:41 > 0:55:43APPLAUSE

0:55:47 > 0:55:51It's the first time you guys collaborated on stage?

0:55:51 > 0:55:53On stage, yeah.

0:55:53 > 0:55:55We used to practise together.

0:55:55 > 0:55:58We never played together, you know.

0:55:58 > 0:56:00That was your concert?

0:56:00 > 0:56:03- It was my 80th birthday concert. - Yeah, yeah.

0:56:03 > 0:56:05And you set that up, and everything?

0:56:05 > 0:56:09- Yeah, I did it. I produced it. - Excellent.

0:56:09 > 0:56:13I did everything. There was no corporate involvement...

0:56:13 > 0:56:14COURTNEY LAUGHS

0:56:14 > 0:56:17Which there usually is, you know?

0:56:17 > 0:56:19In all these shows in New York,

0:56:19 > 0:56:23we didn't have any corporate sponsorship.

0:56:23 > 0:56:26We did it, you know, just ourselves.

0:56:26 > 0:56:29Most people think it can only happen with corporate money,

0:56:29 > 0:56:32- or a label...- There you go!

0:56:32 > 0:56:33The music? OK, great.

0:56:35 > 0:56:39But the message of trying to do things ourselves...

0:56:40 > 0:56:41Very inspiring.

0:56:41 > 0:56:46- Well, it was great hearing you tonight.- OK, well...

0:56:46 > 0:56:48Next show will be better, but...

0:56:48 > 0:56:51I promise that.

0:56:51 > 0:56:53THEY LAUGH

0:56:53 > 0:56:55I'll begin to sing.

0:56:57 > 0:56:58Well, it's an option.

0:57:00 > 0:57:01But I promise that.

0:58:55 > 0:58:58APPLAUSE

0:59:10 > 0:59:13Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd