0:00:22 > 0:00:23How do I look?
0:00:23 > 0:00:24Green.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28Yeah, it's all come together nicely, hasn't it?
0:00:28 > 0:00:30You look like Robin Hood in drag.
0:00:30 > 0:00:36We were the first series to have two actresses as the leading parts.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39Derek's more likely to be attracted to me because I'm a lady.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41What do you think I am, a bloody fella?!
0:00:41 > 0:00:46All of it was implied and therefore it could be absolutely anything.
0:00:46 > 0:00:53I don't mind boasting about my writing work because I wasn't really good at much else.
0:00:53 > 0:00:59My husband would be tall and sensitive, with artistic hands and a love of music.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03All she needs is a poof with a violin.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07The Liver Birds is still one of the most influential British comedies ever written.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11Not only was it the first successful show to be written by and starring women,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15but amazingly, during its life, it survived the loss of two main characters
0:01:15 > 0:01:22and was so well loved in the 1970s, it was brought back for a controversial reunion in the 1990s.
0:01:22 > 0:01:26It made Carla Lane one of the BBC's most successful sitcom writers
0:01:26 > 0:01:30as she went on to write some of its most popular comedies over the next three decades.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33But her relationship with dear old Auntie didn't start well
0:01:33 > 0:01:37when she wanted to read one of her first scripts on BBC radio.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41I didn't have the accent that the BBC had in those days -
0:01:41 > 0:01:44snobs.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48She met more like-minded people at her local writers' club as she became
0:01:48 > 0:01:51friends with fellow young mum Myra Taylor.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Wonderful green eyes she had, and black hair and she was...
0:01:54 > 0:01:59Big mouth, long before all this collagen came in.
0:01:59 > 0:02:05And a lovely looking girl and full of fire, and I adored her company.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08And she wrote well, too.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12Deciding to pool their talents, the partnership of Lane and Taylor
0:02:12 > 0:02:14came up with a surreal script about a dog.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18It was a little daschund and he was complaining
0:02:18 > 0:02:22about the height of the pavements, because of his particular anatomy.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24And the damage it was doing.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26And that was our sense of humour.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28The BBC's Head Of Comedy, Michael Mills,
0:02:28 > 0:02:32liked their sense of humour and invited the Liverpool housewives to London.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36And he said, "What would you like to do?"
0:02:36 > 0:02:38We thought we were in a dream.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40Cos we'd done nothing in particular.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42And we both said, "Well..."
0:02:42 > 0:02:46"Well," he said, "You're women. Write about two women living together."
0:02:46 > 0:02:49And we said "Well, OK, we could do flat sharing."
0:02:49 > 0:02:54And so the married mothers were commissioned to write about two single girls on the loose.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58It should have been frightening, but there was something about us,
0:02:58 > 0:03:00we weren't frightened of anything, really.
0:03:00 > 0:03:05Although, obviously, you know, you think, "Oh, can I do it, can I do this?"
0:03:05 > 0:03:09Mills was impressed with their efforts and brought in sitcom expert Sydney Lotterby.
0:03:09 > 0:03:15Sydney had worked on shows like Sykes in 1964, the Likely Lads in '65
0:03:15 > 0:03:19and the one off Sheila Hancock special, Simply Sheila, in 1968.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24He met Carla and Myra at a memorable read through with actresses Pauline Collins and Polly James.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28There were, what...? Five people there,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31two ladies round about my age,
0:03:31 > 0:03:38with quite short skirts, because it was the '60s, and Polly and Pauline, who...
0:03:38 > 0:03:41I knew about Pauline, but I'd never seen Polly in my life.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43I think I always thought that I was going to be
0:03:43 > 0:03:46the leading dramatic actress of the century.
0:03:46 > 0:03:51Polly James' dramatic TV career began on BBC Two's 30 Minute Theatre
0:03:51 > 0:03:55followed by a part as a drug addict in Z Cars in 1967.
0:03:55 > 0:04:00The following year, Polly appeared in Coronation Street, where she got to practise a few chat up lines.
0:04:00 > 0:04:06There was an awfully good documentary on TV last night about North Sea Gas.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10- Oh, I was watching the show-jumping myself.- Oh.
0:04:10 > 0:04:16I was in the middle of a West End musical called Anne Of Green Gables
0:04:16 > 0:04:21and I was asked to go to the then Head Of Comedy.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25Michael Mills, who was the boss, had arranged it so that
0:04:25 > 0:04:29Pauline was doing Polly's part and Polly was doing Pauline's part.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32And we swapped the parts around.
0:04:32 > 0:04:36And we read a bit more and everyone said "Yes, it's best that way."
0:04:36 > 0:04:38So, that's how it all started.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42In April 1969, the pilot was shown as an episode of Comedy Playhouse,
0:04:42 > 0:04:44the BBC's breeding ground for sitcoms.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47Michael Mills came up with the title.
0:04:47 > 0:04:48"The Liver Birds"!
0:04:48 > 0:04:50I said, "I don't like it."
0:04:50 > 0:04:52But anyway, I kept my mouth shut.
0:04:52 > 0:04:57And he liked it and it worked, didn't it? It was right in the end.
0:04:57 > 0:05:02It went very well with the audience and we all knew that they were going to be a series.
0:05:03 > 0:05:08And so there it was. Series one of The Liver Birds was transmitted in July 1969,
0:05:08 > 0:05:12starring Pauline Collins as Dawn and Polly James as Beryl,
0:05:12 > 0:05:15just three months after the original pilot.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18It was very quick for two...
0:05:18 > 0:05:23erm...writers who'd never done much before, hadn't done anything before.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26Sydney had worked with actor George Layton on The Likely Lads
0:05:26 > 0:05:30and cast him as Beryl's boyfriend Joe in the first episode.
0:05:30 > 0:05:34I remember this funny sequence, where
0:05:34 > 0:05:36the character I played, Joe the boyfriend,
0:05:36 > 0:05:41was checking the oil in his car. Polly waved a handkerchief in a flirtatious way
0:05:41 > 0:05:43and I just used the hankie to wipe the dipstick.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47But Polly's hectic schedule on Anne Of Green Gables was in danger
0:05:47 > 0:05:51of scuppering Carla and Myra's TV career before it had hardly begun.
0:05:51 > 0:05:56It was too much. I mean, every evening she was in the theatre, and all day with me rehearsing.
0:05:56 > 0:06:02So eventually what happened, after three, three or four, I can't remember,
0:06:02 > 0:06:04they said, "Look, let's stop this.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07"This is silly. Let's stop it for her."
0:06:07 > 0:06:13Sydney had to wait two years until Polly was available, but now he had another big problem.
0:06:13 > 0:06:17Pauline Collins had moved to Belgravia in LWT's Upstairs Downstairs.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21Were Carla and Myra's Liver Birds ever going to take flight?
0:06:21 > 0:06:27It was terribly difficult because, I don't know, I couldn't seem to find someone from Liverpool.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29Sydney thought he was on to a winner
0:06:29 > 0:06:32when he remembered Nerys Hughes, who had made her screen debut
0:06:32 > 0:06:38on Liverpool drama Z Cars in 1963, before working with him in a Northern sitcom.
0:06:38 > 0:06:44I did a part in Likely Lads as Jimmy Bolam's girlfriend for two episodes.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48I thought, "She's from Liverpool," thinking that Nerys came from Liverpool.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50She doesn't, of course. She's Welsh.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54And he said would I like to come and read for The Liver Birds?
0:06:54 > 0:06:58She did a wonderful reading and I gave her the job.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02There really never was a point at which Nerys joined.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05It was really always Nerys and myself.
0:07:05 > 0:07:11And that's no disrespect to Pauline, but that was all in some kind of trial period.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15The Liver Birds finally took off again on 7th January 1971.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19Polly returned as Beryl with Nerys playing her new flatmate Sandra.
0:07:19 > 0:07:24And this time we saw Liverpool in full glorious Technicolor.
0:07:24 > 0:07:29Liverpool had never been seen. It was nice to be able to film in places that had back to backs.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31And, er...
0:07:31 > 0:07:33the Mersey and all of that.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36It was just a great place to set it in.
0:07:36 > 0:07:41As well as a distinctive look, Liverpool also had a distinct sound.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44Liverpool has a very definite accent, as you know.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46It's sort of, "'Ello there, girl."
0:07:46 > 0:07:47"You all right, love?"
0:07:47 > 0:07:50"Oh, isn't she lovely?" It's a lot like that.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53I didn't come from Liverpool. I came from Blackburn.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57VERY POSH: A, E, I, O, U.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59THICK LIVERPOOL ACCENT: A, E, I, O, U.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03And so I never tried to do much of a Liverpool accent.
0:08:03 > 0:08:05I want you to repeat it until you get it right.
0:08:05 > 0:08:09They...see...my...old...pew.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12- They see me old pew!- No.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15Nerys was much nearer to it because she came from Rhyl.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19We even speak Welsh with a Liverpool accent in Rhyl.
0:08:19 > 0:08:20SHE SPEAKS WELSH
0:08:20 > 0:08:23Can you hear it? It's kind of got a Liverpool accent.
0:08:23 > 0:08:27But while the girls lived it up in Liverpool, their creators were writing their scripts
0:08:27 > 0:08:32in a B and B in London where the studios were - and their husbands weren't.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36So I used to hare back to Liverpool on the train, and...
0:08:36 > 0:08:38and back to London, and he saw me off.
0:08:38 > 0:08:43And I used to look at him and think, "Oh, what am I doing to my family?"
0:08:43 > 0:08:46But I had to do it. You know, it was just something...
0:08:46 > 0:08:51Talent, I believe it is called, that I had, and I had to follow it.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55Though they abandoned their families, they still had each other,
0:08:55 > 0:08:58and both brought something different to the party.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01Aren't you going to carry me over the threshold?
0:09:01 > 0:09:06We knew we had to have one, one way and one the other, and you had it on a plate.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09Myra/Carla. Polly was Myra.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11I'm just giving millions of things to Oxfam again.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13Full of the devil.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15Said what she thought.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17As a matter of fact, I don't want to borrow nothing.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19I want you to do something for me.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21So do a lot of fellas.
0:09:21 > 0:09:26I was from the nice family and a little bit sort of, "Oh, no, you can't do that."
0:09:26 > 0:09:30- I became Sandra.- The Mona Lisa.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32She never changes, does she?
0:09:32 > 0:09:37- Of course not. That's how Leonardo painted her. - I wonder what she's smiling at?
0:09:37 > 0:09:39Even the great scholars can't answer that one.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43Me mam smiles like that when she's soaking her feet in a bowl of hot water.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46Beryl, you are basic.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50How can you compare a work of art with your mam soaking her feet in a bowl of water?
0:09:50 > 0:09:52We used each other as characters.
0:09:52 > 0:09:56We buried ourselves under the bed clothes.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59She was in one corner screaming her head off. I was in the other.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02And we must have sounded like a couple of banshees.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05It wasn't just the writers who worked well together.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09The rapport between Polly and myself was fairly instant.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13It was excellent, it happened in a twinkling, really.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16We just fitted together.
0:10:16 > 0:10:18We learned our lines
0:10:18 > 0:10:21- sipping Pernod milkshakes. - SHE LAUGHS
0:10:21 > 0:10:24I mean they must have been ghastly, mustn't they? Pernod milkshakes!
0:10:24 > 0:10:26They had a lot of fun together.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29Screams of laughter used to come from their dressing room.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31What shall I do, Beryl?
0:10:31 > 0:10:35Well, it's your problem. You brought her here, you sort her out.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38Very nice. Friends are supposed to share their problems.
0:10:38 > 0:10:39You're right.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43I'll share yours if you'll share mine.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46- Come and sit down. - What have you got there?
0:10:46 > 0:10:48Gwyneth!
0:10:48 > 0:10:51The core of the series was friendship, definitely.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53They'd either fallen out...
0:10:53 > 0:10:57- I'm still trying to say I'm sorry! - It's my fault!- No, it's my fault!
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Or they were best, best, best bosom buddies.
0:10:59 > 0:11:04I'll tell you what, give us that sausage and we'll call it quits, I'll come.
0:11:04 > 0:11:11We were two girls sharing secrets, which could be overheard by the audience.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13He's not like any other fellow I've ever met.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17I mean, he likes books and paintings and nice old buildings.
0:11:17 > 0:11:22- He's really one of your lot. - At least you're going for a bit of culture. That'll make a change.
0:11:22 > 0:11:24The last one you had was awful.
0:11:24 > 0:11:29Sitting there cramming chips between his goggles and his muffler.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32He looked like a waste disposal unit.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36- Well, I gave him up.- He never even took his crash helmet off.
0:11:36 > 0:11:38I never saw what he looked like.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41I did. That's why I gave him up.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44Women sharing the fantasy of life.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47He's kind, tender
0:11:47 > 0:11:49and reliable.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51So is washing-up liquid.
0:11:51 > 0:11:57Drama comes from the kinds of differences where people
0:11:57 > 0:12:00of one social strata get on with people of another.
0:12:00 > 0:12:05And so their friendship flourished, even though they were from different backgrounds.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08Then you can get fun out of the pretentiousness
0:12:08 > 0:12:11and the rawness.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13We're not quite the same, are we?
0:12:13 > 0:12:15The way we speak, for a start.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Well, I do it with my mouth. I don't know about you.
0:12:18 > 0:12:23You saw it very clearly, the difference in the characters, by the mothers.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26Common, you know, and posh.
0:12:26 > 0:12:31And I always love that difference, because in my life, I've had a lot of that.
0:12:31 > 0:12:36- Oh, Mrs Hennessey, you're here too. - Well, she is my daughter you know.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40Oh, it must make you feel very old seeing your children all grown up.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43Of course, I was lucky, I had my children very young.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46My kids were quite young when they was born an all.
0:12:46 > 0:12:52Sheila Fay was Beryl's mum, Mrs Hennessey and Molly Sugden played the posh Mrs Hutchinson.
0:12:52 > 0:12:56Oh, Mrs Hutchison, I think she was my mother.
0:12:56 > 0:12:57I'm sure she was my mother.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01She played this obnoxious, terrible snob.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05- False alarm! - Oh, that girl.
0:13:05 > 0:13:10She's got about as much culture as a compost heap.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13She always sat with her handbag like this.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16And she'd go, "Oh...!"
0:13:16 > 0:13:21And it seemed that Mrs Hutchinson's pretensions had rubbed off on her daughter Sandra.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24She thought that she was terribly knowledgeable and posh.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27You're not still reading War And Peace, are you?
0:13:27 > 0:13:31Which I think I must have read for about 38 episodes.
0:13:31 > 0:13:35It's taking you longer to read it than Agatha Christie took to write it.
0:13:35 > 0:13:40- It was absolutely typical Sandra. - Their differences extended to the way they looked, too.
0:13:40 > 0:13:45It was a very good contrast in a way, because I was sort of...
0:13:45 > 0:13:48curvy and brunette, and...
0:13:48 > 0:13:52- Polly was blonde and tiny. - What are the measurements, love?
0:13:52 > 0:13:5435, 24, 35.
0:13:54 > 0:14:01Being single girls on prime time TV, it was no surprise the actresses became '70s crumpet.
0:14:01 > 0:14:04All the men in the BBC fell in love with Nerys.
0:14:04 > 0:14:11You will be representing the club and the associations Miss Hot Pants of 1972 competition!
0:14:11 > 0:14:13CHEERING AND WOLF-WHISTLING
0:14:13 > 0:14:20That's the most surprising thing about me being a bit of a pin up, because to tell you the truth,
0:14:20 > 0:14:23I wasn't at all a pin up. I was terribly ordinary.
0:14:23 > 0:14:28Polly was attractive, but in a very different way.
0:14:28 > 0:14:33Not all bubbly and cuddly, and tight sweaters and little skirts.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35You know, a bit boy-like.
0:14:40 > 0:14:42How do you like my new image, Sand?
0:14:43 > 0:14:45Well, it's different.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47I've borrowed your bra.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50And what the Lord has forgotten I've stuffed with cotton.
0:14:50 > 0:14:54They just went together beautifully.
0:14:54 > 0:14:58But at the end of the second series, a beautiful off-screen relationship was over.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02While Carla was flourishing in London, Myra missed her family too much
0:15:02 > 0:15:04and decided to leave the show to return to Liverpool.
0:15:04 > 0:15:10I watched her getting in the taxi, dragging her case, tripping over the way she did.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12She was very awkward.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14And I had tears in my eyes.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17I thought, "Oh, what am I going to do?"
0:15:17 > 0:15:23I was a bit concerned to start off with, obviously, because, you know, the two of them, take one away.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26But Carla turned up with the goods.
0:15:26 > 0:15:31And I knew how to write Sandra and I knew how to write our Beryl.
0:15:31 > 0:15:36Because although I was a Sandra, I began my married life living in...
0:15:36 > 0:15:39Over the top of a pub with my new husband in Prescott Street.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41You don't get lower than that.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43And I knew everything that went on.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47So I did manage both. And I liked doing it.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51But with 13 new episodes commissioned for series three, Michael Mills felt it was
0:15:51 > 0:15:55too much for Carla to undertake by herself. Old pro Lew Schwarz
0:15:55 > 0:15:58had leant a hand in series one, but now Carla discovered
0:15:58 > 0:16:03writing duo Jack Seddon and David Pursall would be writing six episodes.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05Oh, God, that.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08That nearly killed me.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11Yeah... I mean, what can I say?
0:16:11 > 0:16:14They wrote like fellas.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16They weren't empathetic.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20They were, erm...voyeuristic!
0:16:20 > 0:16:24I remember a football match, the shorts were terribly short,
0:16:24 > 0:16:28and also there was a girl with huge breasts,
0:16:28 > 0:16:31who was so big-breasted that she fell over.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35And that's a man joke, isn't it?
0:16:35 > 0:16:39It was very funny, but it wasn't Carla.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42They were, tonally, not the same somehow.
0:16:42 > 0:16:47They had no idea of how a woman thought.
0:16:47 > 0:16:53So the blokiness lasted for only one series and Carla became sole writer of The Liver Birds.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56She seized the chance to give it some balls of her own.
0:16:56 > 0:16:58What have you got there?
0:16:58 > 0:17:00- SEX IN THE... - Shh!
0:17:00 > 0:17:04- (Sex In The '70s.)- Trust you!
0:17:04 > 0:17:08It's given me something to look forward to. I thought you had to give it up at 65.
0:17:08 > 0:17:13I was more modern than the cast. And than the BBC.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16I mean, I was older, and I knew more about life.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20Oh, Beryl, it's not a mind you've got. It's a pornographic novel.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25Liver Birds was a bit risque, they thought sometimes.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27I tried to be risque.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29What about Paul and David, then?
0:17:29 > 0:17:34All they ever do is take us to those Chinese restaurants with those horrible chopsticks.
0:17:34 > 0:17:38- Well, I manage.- Oh, yeah. You do.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42I come home dead hungry with half me king prawns down me bra.
0:17:42 > 0:17:49There were sexual references, and we did have lots of boyfriends.
0:17:49 > 0:17:55But you couldn't really go into it in detail, or we'd be a couple of slags, wouldn't we?
0:17:55 > 0:18:01A lot about teasing. You'd never get away with anything like that now.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04Sandra, I did enjoy the steak.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06- Mm!- I did enjoy the wine.- Mm...!
0:18:06 > 0:18:12They were naughty girls who lead men on, and then, you know,
0:18:12 > 0:18:15don't give them satisfaction!
0:18:16 > 0:18:20- So what's for afters? - Mm! I mean, no!
0:18:20 > 0:18:23No, Aubrey, we hardly know each other.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26If you can come in and say "I had great sex last night."
0:18:28 > 0:18:30"Oh, really?"
0:18:30 > 0:18:33There's nowhere to go from there. If you can come in and say...
0:18:36 > 0:18:38"He didn't go till half past ten."
0:18:42 > 0:18:44The other person is intrigued, aren't they?
0:18:44 > 0:18:47It isn't actually explicit.
0:18:47 > 0:18:50And I think it would have been an uncomfortable series,
0:18:50 > 0:18:55having two girls with lots of boys in and out the whole time...
0:18:55 > 0:18:57Oh, no, don't say that!
0:18:57 > 0:19:01It did have an innocence about it, which I wouldn't write now because
0:19:01 > 0:19:04it doesn't exist either in me or the world.
0:19:04 > 0:19:07But there was an innocence in the world then.
0:19:07 > 0:19:11We weren't even allowed to talk about the pill, which is ridiculous.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13It was happening. But there we are.
0:19:13 > 0:19:18Carla eventually decided to go all the way by proposing Beryl break a TV taboo
0:19:18 > 0:19:20and spend the night with her boyfriend.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23DOORBELL RINGS
0:19:23 > 0:19:24Coming! >
0:19:24 > 0:19:29When I gave the synopsis, which sometimes I did, if I was worried,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32and told them that she was going to stay the night, oh, my God!
0:19:32 > 0:19:37- I thought, "Oh, heavens! This is not going to work." - I said, "Look, I'm doing it."
0:19:37 > 0:19:39This is the, erm...
0:19:40 > 0:19:42LAUGHTER
0:19:42 > 0:19:46- Er, would you like...? - No, I'll keep it on, thank you very much.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49When I read the end of the script, I thought, "Oh, clever Carla!"
0:19:49 > 0:19:51She was like this with her bag.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54- Serviette?- Ta.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59Don't want to get your bag wet, do we?
0:20:01 > 0:20:02No, I don't.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05The lock might rust.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07I mean, nothing happened.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10But it wouldn't have been allowed to have happened.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14These days, I mean, come on. Every second word is F and it's,
0:20:14 > 0:20:16"Who am I going to jump into bed with tonight?"
0:20:18 > 0:20:21I don't want to rush you or anything like that.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25I mean, when you really care about someone, you have to be delicate and subtle.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29- Yes.- We've been together for two hours and you haven't even put your bloody bag down!
0:20:29 > 0:20:32I think we were the two oldest virgins
0:20:32 > 0:20:37that ever appeared on television!
0:20:37 > 0:20:41Virgins they might have been, but The Liver Birds led the way
0:20:41 > 0:20:45and showed that women could successfully take the lead.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47Because they were girls, with girls' views.
0:20:47 > 0:20:52Talking about the things that girls, you know, nudge-nudge, talk about.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55Did I ask what you were doing on the sofa?
0:20:55 > 0:20:59You didn't have to. This sofa gives its own running commentary.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03Four twangs and a boing and my secrets are out.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06A lot of people were hearing that for the first time.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08We were really, you know,
0:21:08 > 0:21:13really a rare little set up, and everybody made the most of it.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16And the press were always around us.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19I remember going to a football ground with Molly.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22We were doing a personal appearance of some sort.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24And a man got hold of my tits.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27And Molly just got her handbag out and hit him on the head.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29SHE CHUCKLES
0:21:29 > 0:21:32Despite viewers of up to 16 million, being involved in The Liver Birds
0:21:32 > 0:21:36wasn't always glamorous, as Carla kept the girls on their toes.
0:21:38 > 0:21:44On top of all that there was the author's well known love of animals to try and cope with, too.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47I remember Nerys wrestling with a great big dog.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56It's very difficult filming animals.
0:21:56 > 0:21:57Help! Police!
0:21:57 > 0:22:01Fire! Rape! Rape! Rape!
0:22:01 > 0:22:05They don't portray sadness or happiness when you want to.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07They just sit there, panting, don't they?
0:22:07 > 0:22:11Because of the lights. So you don't get anything out of them.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13If animals weren't tricky enough,
0:22:13 > 0:22:17talking and eating a chip butty simultaneously also had to be mastered.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19I can't get my mouth round it.
0:22:19 > 0:22:23What do you want, a made to measure? Come here, Sandra.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27- We were always eating cornflakes. - Listen to yourself.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29SHE CRUNCHES
0:22:29 > 0:22:35Polly said to me one day, "Carla, can you give me a line where me gob isn't full?"
0:22:35 > 0:22:38Nobody can eat cornflakes quiet.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42And Carla's interior design ideas were rather unusual.
0:22:42 > 0:22:46We had in our flat, we had a commode.
0:22:46 > 0:22:50I said to Carla, "What's this?" She said, "It's a commode." and I said...
0:22:50 > 0:22:53"That's a lavatory, isn't it?" I said, "Yeah."
0:22:53 > 0:22:57But I said, "It's an antique lavatory, and that's funny.
0:22:57 > 0:22:58There it is.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05The, er...IOUs...
0:23:05 > 0:23:10You know, things would go wrong, and we were not allowed to stop.
0:23:10 > 0:23:15She was meant to have sat down on the commode, and I'd forgotten to put the lid down.
0:23:15 > 0:23:17And I sat down and went right down into it.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21"IOU 6 guineas, Sandra."?!
0:23:21 > 0:23:23Oh, well, you can't expect me
0:23:23 > 0:23:25to go to Torremolinos looking like a rat bag.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28- Wha...?! - LAUGHTER
0:23:28 > 0:23:32And I started laughing, and the tears were rolling down my cheeks.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35Well, what did you buy for six guineas?
0:23:35 > 0:23:37Chinchilla knickers?
0:23:37 > 0:23:43And Syd Lotterby put the clicker down. You know, from the gallery, and said,
0:23:43 > 0:23:48"Girls, if you can't be quiet, will you leave the studio?"
0:23:48 > 0:23:50Oh, dear me, how can I be stern?
0:23:50 > 0:23:53I can't be. But I had to tell them off once or twice, yes.
0:23:53 > 0:23:58Some of Carla's ideas were obviously potty, but not when it came to developing her characters.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02I hadn't had a lot of experience of life and men.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05I went to a girls' boarding school, and I was a tea-totaller.
0:24:05 > 0:24:12And I think to a certain degree, an awful lot of Sandra was rather green.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17As you do more episodes,
0:24:17 > 0:24:20things which have made people laugh
0:24:20 > 0:24:23erm, get repeated, and they get accentuated,
0:24:23 > 0:24:29and I've never minded people making fun of my size, my accent, my this, my that.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31It feels like a natural placement for me.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36And I'd worn a pair of yellow tights at some point.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39To a hungry wolf, I look like a packed lunch.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41Somebody said, "You look like a chicken."
0:24:41 > 0:24:45Clearly, with my chin as well. Chicken chin and chicken legs.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48Foxes eat chickens.
0:24:48 > 0:24:51Sand, I've got my chicken leg tights on.
0:24:53 > 0:24:55In the end,
0:24:55 > 0:25:00what I did was to give to each character what I think suited them
0:25:00 > 0:25:03and the way they talked and the way they looked.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07And it's a good rule to go by.
0:25:07 > 0:25:09It's like fitting them with a dress.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13That dress would suit Polly, it certainly wouldn't suit Nerys.
0:25:13 > 0:25:16And the dresses the girls wore not only reflected their individually,
0:25:16 > 0:25:20they were also ultra-fashionable... for the mid-'70s.
0:25:20 > 0:25:24I think I probably wore things that I would never have had the guts to wear.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27High heeled shoes and very long...
0:25:27 > 0:25:29And what do you call these funny little trousers?
0:25:29 > 0:25:31Mr Freedom dungarees.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34Bright blue with yellow teddy bears all over them.
0:25:34 > 0:25:38Still got them, they're about that size.
0:25:38 > 0:25:42There was an unrestricted feel to life.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45And it was reflected in what you wore.
0:25:45 > 0:25:49The skirts went up. And up.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53I remember them, sitting down in front of them, rehearsing,
0:25:53 > 0:25:57with their tiny short skirts and thinking to myself, "I've got to stand up.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59"All I can see is knickers!"
0:25:59 > 0:26:03By series four, Carla felt it was time for The Liver Birds
0:26:03 > 0:26:06to start thinking about longer-term relationships with boys.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09John Nettles played my boyfriend Paul.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12He was terribly spidery thin in those days.
0:26:12 > 0:26:14And permanently frustrated.
0:26:14 > 0:26:19I'm living in the vague hope that you might appreciate having a man about the place.
0:26:19 > 0:26:24That the visual effect of the male form might just awaken your dormant passion.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29You could just see it in every fibre of his being!
0:26:29 > 0:26:32It seemed the only thing Paul could pop was the question,
0:26:32 > 0:26:35and it was odds on that Sandra would be the first Liver Bird to marry.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38He's done it!!
0:26:38 > 0:26:40He's done it!
0:26:40 > 0:26:42- He's proposed!- Is that all?
0:26:42 > 0:26:45I'm going to be a real-live housewife.
0:26:45 > 0:26:50I always wanted the Liver Birds not to be too keen about marriage.
0:26:50 > 0:26:52I mean, marriage is not natural.
0:26:52 > 0:26:57They teach you all about the birds and the bees, but you've never seen a sparrow wearing a wedding ring.
0:26:57 > 0:27:00- Not to down it.- Man's the dog and woman's the bone.
0:27:00 > 0:27:03He eats the best of you and buries the rest of you.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06And when his dish is empty he'll dig you up again.
0:27:06 > 0:27:12But not to be out to get a boyfriend to marry, just to enjoy themselves.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14Please try and understand, Paul...
0:27:16 > 0:27:20- It's just...- You don't want to spend your life cooking and washing socks.
0:27:20 > 0:27:25- I don't want to spend my life cooking and washing socks.- I won't eat, and I won't wear socks.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28No, I couldn't marry a man who didn't wear socks.
0:27:28 > 0:27:33I always like writing weddings, because they're really funny, and ridiculous, let's face it.
0:27:33 > 0:27:38So if Carla wanted a wedding, was Paul going to sweet-talk Sandra back to the altar?
0:27:38 > 0:27:40Give us the phone, come on.
0:27:40 > 0:27:43- Hello?- 'Hello, Beryl?'
0:27:43 > 0:27:46- Robert.- Beryl?
0:27:46 > 0:27:49'Yes, Robert?'
0:27:49 > 0:27:51I've missed you. It's been awful.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55- I don't want to be without you ever again.- Yes, Robert?
0:27:55 > 0:27:57Beryl?
0:27:57 > 0:27:59Yes, Robert?
0:27:59 > 0:28:01Will you marry me?
0:28:03 > 0:28:05Yes, Robert.
0:28:05 > 0:28:10But as her character vowed to be faithful for a lifetime, Polly was feeling less committed.
0:28:10 > 0:28:15The reason I left the programme in the end was I felt I was in danger
0:28:15 > 0:28:19of caricaturing what was already a pretty outrageous character.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22When Polly said she was leaving, I was heartbroken.
0:28:22 > 0:28:24I mean, we were such a team.
0:28:24 > 0:28:28Well, of course, that horrified me and terrified me.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31And I thought, "This is the end, I should go."
0:28:31 > 0:28:35So once again, it looked like The Liver Birds could face extinction.
0:28:35 > 0:28:39Having successfully replaced one Liver Bird back in 1971,
0:28:39 > 0:28:41were they going to be able to pull it off again?
0:28:41 > 0:28:45To keep the series going, Sydney had to find a new leading lady.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48But it was Nerys who first spotted her potential new flatmate.
0:28:48 > 0:28:53I went to see a musical in town called John Paul...
0:28:53 > 0:28:55..George, Ringo and Bert.
0:28:55 > 0:28:58And I thought "That's the girl. She'd just be wonderful."
0:28:58 > 0:29:02Elizabeth Estensen had gone straight out of rep
0:29:02 > 0:29:04into Willy Russell's play in the West End.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06Why can't we go to the Empire, Bert?
0:29:06 > 0:29:10- Because The Silver Beatles aren't on at the Empire. - Oh, but The Shadows are.
0:29:10 > 0:29:16Taking Nerys' advice, Sydney saw the performance and asked Elizabeth to audition for the part.
0:29:16 > 0:29:21And I remember sitting down and reading it, and just imagining...
0:29:21 > 0:29:24I wouldn't get it as I had no experience in television.
0:29:24 > 0:29:29She was loud and abrasive and exactly what I wanted.
0:29:29 > 0:29:32So after four years as one half of The Liver Birds,
0:29:32 > 0:29:36- the bouncy blonde Beryl was replaced by feisty flame haired Carol.
0:29:36 > 0:29:40Hey! Kitchen to living room! Have you got it?! Over and out!
0:29:40 > 0:29:46She's a lovely lady, lovely actress, had the accent,
0:29:46 > 0:29:48had the shrug of the shoulder and the grin.
0:29:48 > 0:29:52- They didn't get on at first, she didn't want her to move in to the flat.- She's so common.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55Smug faced cow.
0:29:55 > 0:29:58There was an uneasy feeling between them, or, er...
0:29:58 > 0:30:00Carol kept putting her foot in it.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04Carol, you better get ready. You're meeting Leonard in an hour.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06Oh, yeah.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09Hey, I'll get him to take a picture of you if you like.
0:30:09 > 0:30:13He's very keen on faces, especially interesting faces.
0:30:13 > 0:30:14You know, used faces.
0:30:17 > 0:30:22But eventually, Sandra warmed to her and they became very close, despite their differences.
0:30:22 > 0:30:26Now in her fifth series, Carla expanded her range from single life
0:30:26 > 0:30:30to family life by introducing Carol's relatives, the Boswells.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33You're all too lazy! You're running mam off her feet!
0:30:33 > 0:30:36Look, I go to work and our Barbara goes to work.
0:30:36 > 0:30:40He goes to sleep and he's gone to some far off land called Bananas.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44They were a close family, they were a dysfunctional family.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48The most dysfunctional of the lot was Carol's brother.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50You must be Lucien.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54Yeah, bloody daft name. I try not to mention it.
0:30:54 > 0:30:58Michael Angelis' TV career had followed a similar route to Polly's
0:30:58 > 0:31:01with appearances in Coronation Street and Z Cars.
0:31:01 > 0:31:06At the audition with Sydney, Michael's performance was what you might call low-key.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09I was feeling a bit delicate at the time, so...
0:31:09 > 0:31:11A bit monosyllabic, I suppose.
0:31:11 > 0:31:14- Sit down.- Thanks.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20I think it's a very nice name.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23Thanks.
0:31:23 > 0:31:26I've been looking forward to meeting you.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28Thanks.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31Which is kind of where the character came from.
0:31:31 > 0:31:37It was just his face, with everything going on inside, and this wonderful humour coming out.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40But you mustn't feel upset.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43After all, you're alive, aren't you?
0:31:43 > 0:31:45And you've got your rabbits to think about.
0:31:45 > 0:31:47Oh, me rabbits, yeah.
0:31:47 > 0:31:51Oh, one day I'll really branch out in a big way, you know.
0:31:51 > 0:31:55Fur gloves, fur hats, fur coats.
0:31:57 > 0:31:59Don't you get fond of them?
0:31:59 > 0:32:02Oh, yeah, I love every one of them.
0:32:02 > 0:32:06This sleeve was one of my favourites.
0:32:06 > 0:32:10Michael Angelis was a native scouser and became Carla's first leading male character.
0:32:10 > 0:32:15Lucien had this slow, sort of, dreamy way, you know.
0:32:15 > 0:32:20And therefore you could give him quite profound things to say.
0:32:21 > 0:32:25I don't know why I buy this paper. The news is shocking.
0:32:25 > 0:32:31I never get upset, I just say to myself, "You're lucky." I say,
0:32:31 > 0:32:34"Just think, there's rabbits dying every day."
0:32:35 > 0:32:39People still say, "How's your rabbits?" and all of that silly nonsense.
0:32:39 > 0:32:43I always remember one of the biggest laughs we had,
0:32:43 > 0:32:47and I always remember it because they couldn't stop laughing.
0:32:47 > 0:32:49They had a magazine open.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51Oh, Censored, the new magazine.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54- Will you look inside...?! - SHE SOBS
0:32:57 > 0:32:59Ah, it's just people, isn't it?
0:32:59 > 0:33:00Naked people!
0:33:00 > 0:33:02Yes, naked people.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05Women... And men!
0:33:05 > 0:33:07Let's have a look.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10Mrs Hutchinson was putting her case forward in a very, sort of...
0:33:10 > 0:33:17And Mrs Boswell was like this, "You know, you don't want a fella and a girl on a book."
0:33:17 > 0:33:19Have you seen the centre page?
0:33:19 > 0:33:24Well, there's a man on the right hand page.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26A naked man.
0:33:26 > 0:33:30And a naked lady on the left hand page.
0:33:30 > 0:33:31SHE SOBS
0:33:31 > 0:33:35And Lucien's sitting listening and he said very dryly...
0:33:35 > 0:33:39She's worrying about what happens when you close the book.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44You could not stop them laughing.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46The producer had to say...
0:33:46 > 0:33:51..like that. I mean, I think that was probably a television one-off.
0:33:51 > 0:33:57But there were plenty more moments of laughter with the unholy alliance between Carol and Sandra's mothers.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00My family are good God-fearing Catholics.
0:34:00 > 0:34:01What's God got to do with it?
0:34:01 > 0:34:04She's running God down.
0:34:04 > 0:34:06I am not!
0:34:06 > 0:34:09It's just that I don't see why you're so frightened of him.
0:34:09 > 0:34:11He's such a pleasant, bearded gentleman.
0:34:11 > 0:34:13I loved writing those two.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16What Molly was always terribly clever at doing was, sort of,
0:34:16 > 0:34:18being pretentious and posh,
0:34:18 > 0:34:21but it all slipped when she got drunk.
0:34:21 > 0:34:22LAUGHTER
0:34:22 > 0:34:25I thought I did that rather well.
0:34:25 > 0:34:29With the Boswell's help, The Liver Birds kept audiences loyal and laughing
0:34:29 > 0:34:34for another three series, but Carla knew her characters couldn't live that way forever.
0:34:34 > 0:34:40I suppose it was the inevitable thing, that she would get married in the end.
0:34:40 > 0:34:45Unfortunately for Sandra's husband in series nine, Carol moved in, too.
0:34:45 > 0:34:50Sorry to intrude but could someone sort my body out please, I've got my bangle stuck in my sweater?
0:34:50 > 0:34:55Sandra by this time was so protective of Carol, that wherever she went Carol had to come.
0:34:55 > 0:35:00But when Sandra got some news suddenly there was a time limit on their domestic arrangements.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03I'm going to have a baby!
0:35:03 > 0:35:06They were no longer girls by then.
0:35:06 > 0:35:08They were women, young women.
0:35:08 > 0:35:11And Sandra was married.
0:35:11 > 0:35:14Carol was living with Sandra, and their lives were moving on.
0:35:14 > 0:35:17And everything was taking a different shape.
0:35:17 > 0:35:22We'd been through so many stages of their lives that they were growing up now, or grown up.
0:35:22 > 0:35:26It's funny, the way I wanted to cling on to Carol, you know, girls together?
0:35:26 > 0:35:30- Things change don't they? - Yes, they do.
0:35:30 > 0:35:32And I've got to stop playing games now.
0:35:32 > 0:35:36I've got to concentrate on what I AM instead of what I was.
0:35:36 > 0:35:41I think we'd done enough and thank goodness, we went out on quite a high.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44I think the ratings were still pretty good.
0:35:44 > 0:35:46It seemed the right time to end it.
0:35:46 > 0:35:51When it ended, I wasn't really too sad because it was a long time,
0:35:51 > 0:35:56and I'd very much got Butterflies on my mind.
0:35:56 > 0:35:58And I needed to write it.
0:35:58 > 0:36:02Carla's focus was now shifting to an older solitary housewife,
0:36:02 > 0:36:04who fantasised about escaping
0:36:04 > 0:36:09the drudgery of domestic life, and the first series began in 1979.
0:36:09 > 0:36:10Oh, my God!
0:36:10 > 0:36:12It could have been horrendous.
0:36:12 > 0:36:15But it turned out to be award-winning.
0:36:15 > 0:36:20Butterflies ran for five years, and Sydney Lotterby joined up with Carla for the final two series.
0:36:20 > 0:36:24Although Carla had moved on from The Liver Birds, she hadn't forgotten
0:36:24 > 0:36:29the rabbit loving Lucien Boswell, and took the character to London for a pilot called You, Me and Him.
0:36:29 > 0:36:32Pull any trick you know to get out of the washing up.
0:36:32 > 0:36:36Oh, nobody liked the washing up in our house, including my mum.
0:36:36 > 0:36:39But somebody always gave in at the end of the week.
0:36:39 > 0:36:42Unfortunately, it didn't come to anything, but all wasn't lost,
0:36:42 > 0:36:48as Carla went on to use the Boswell name for the highly popular family in her sitcom Bread.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51Nerys Hughes opted for rural life after The Liver Birds,
0:36:51 > 0:36:56when she went on to star as Megan Roberts in the popular series District Nurse.
0:36:56 > 0:37:00An awful lot of it was Nerys in this white apron
0:37:00 > 0:37:04with the bosoms poking out, and this terrible hat.
0:37:04 > 0:37:10Sort of striding through the Welsh countryside, but it was a very dear series. I enjoyed doing it.
0:37:10 > 0:37:14But it seemed Beryl and Sandra continued to live on in the public's imagination,
0:37:14 > 0:37:21and in 1996, Nerys re-joined Polly James and Michael Angelis in a new series written by Carla.
0:37:21 > 0:37:25Of course, everyone was dying to see what had happened to us.
0:37:25 > 0:37:30You know, it was a terribly popular idea, to bring it back.
0:37:30 > 0:37:36We were 25 years older than we had been, and so moving us on,
0:37:36 > 0:37:40both from Carla's point of view, to write us that much further on,
0:37:40 > 0:37:45and keep the characteristics of what we'd had, I think proved quite tricky.
0:37:45 > 0:37:49I wasn't terribly keen on doing it.
0:37:49 > 0:37:53And he made love to me, right there in the hall.
0:37:53 > 0:37:58- You mean on the floor?- Yes.
0:37:58 > 0:38:01Yeah, he used to laugh about it. "Sweetheart," he'd say,
0:38:01 > 0:38:05"I think I know now why we call this carpet shag pile."
0:38:05 > 0:38:07Maybe we shouldn't have, but
0:38:07 > 0:38:10what the heck.
0:38:10 > 0:38:13Even thought the '90s series wasn't a success,
0:38:13 > 0:38:16the legacy of the classic Liver Birds lives on
0:38:16 > 0:38:19and has continued to pave the way for women in sitcom.
0:38:19 > 0:38:23It stopped being acting. It was just
0:38:23 > 0:38:25such a heck of a laugh.
0:38:25 > 0:38:32Pernod milkshakes, new boyfriends, new people every week, and I loved it.
0:38:32 > 0:38:36I would recommend it, you know, to anybody that can write, try and get into television.
0:38:36 > 0:38:43Would you like to see my old pew?
0:38:57 > 0:39:00Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:39:00 > 0:39:03E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk