0:00:02 > 0:00:05This programme contains some strong language
0:00:05 > 0:00:09and some scenes which some viewers may find upsetting.
0:00:10 > 0:00:14In here, there's, like, a shotgun,
0:00:14 > 0:00:16and there's a puddle of blood
0:00:16 > 0:00:21and so that shows evidence that a guy or woman was here.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24So maybe a lot of blood came from there
0:00:24 > 0:00:29and then he was dragging her into there and killed them.
0:00:30 > 0:00:35The bodies of Robert and Kate Judson and their baby Linda Mae
0:00:35 > 0:00:39were discovered in their home on a November morning in 1937.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43In the baby's room, in here,
0:00:43 > 0:00:49there might be, like, another boy in the child's bed.
0:00:49 > 0:00:53If there is a boy in there,
0:00:53 > 0:00:57then that could have killed the baby and that would be the case.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01This model is one of a collection
0:01:01 > 0:01:04of meticulously-crafted miniature crime scenes,
0:01:04 > 0:01:05based on a real murder.
0:01:07 > 0:01:12They were created over 70 years ago to train forensic detectives
0:01:12 > 0:01:15from across America and they're still used today.
0:01:16 > 0:01:21Young lady here appears to be stabbed in the chest.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26We have blood coming up from underneath of the suspect
0:01:26 > 0:01:29with what appears to be some trauma to the right side of her head...
0:01:29 > 0:01:33The doll's houses are not the work of a police department -
0:01:33 > 0:01:37they're entirely the creation of a rich heiress from New England
0:01:37 > 0:01:39with a fascination for murder
0:01:39 > 0:01:43and a passion to improve police detective work.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47And this was all conceived by a woman called Frances Glessner Lee.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50That's correct, right. She made these in the 1930s and '40s.
0:01:50 > 0:01:55She started a homicide seminar to train police detectives.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Before then, there was no training for homicide cops.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00When she began the seminar,
0:02:00 > 0:02:03she thought it would be great to take everybody
0:02:03 > 0:02:06to a real crime scene and use it as a practice, which you can't do,
0:02:06 > 0:02:09so the next best thing is to make little crime scenes
0:02:09 > 0:02:11that they can practise with.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14You can't overstate her influence on the field
0:02:14 > 0:02:17and she really did transform death investigation.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21She is the mother of forensic science.
0:02:21 > 0:02:25The answers to the crime scenes are still kept a secret,
0:02:25 > 0:02:26even the curator's daughter,
0:02:26 > 0:02:31who's grown up with them thinks of them as mysteries to puzzle over.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35Right now, I really need a stool to see over the girl
0:02:35 > 0:02:40and see her face because I need to see how she died as well.
0:02:45 > 0:02:46The miniatures are housed
0:02:46 > 0:02:50in the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner in Baltimore,
0:02:50 > 0:02:53a city with one of the highest homicide rates in America.
0:02:55 > 0:02:59Murder, and our fascination with it, fills the books we read.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05Today, crime fiction tops the bestseller charts
0:03:05 > 0:03:09and most of those books are now read and written by women.
0:03:09 > 0:03:14So why are we so drawn to the nasty business of murder?
0:03:14 > 0:03:16I don't know.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20This one is a very big mystery.
0:03:40 > 0:03:44It's long been known that women are more likely to read than men,
0:03:44 > 0:03:48and when it comes to crime fiction, they completely dominate.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52Women are choosing to read books that focus on the worst crimes
0:03:52 > 0:03:54that can happen to them -
0:03:54 > 0:03:57novels that are filled with sadistic killers
0:03:57 > 0:04:00and the bruised flesh of raped, murdered women.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04I think that women are interested in crime fiction because to be female
0:04:04 > 0:04:10in this world is to move through it with a feeling that you're prey.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12For as much as we like the detectives,
0:04:12 > 0:04:14we seem to like the murderers well.
0:04:14 > 0:04:18We find it exciting, as though somehow they've got the secret
0:04:18 > 0:04:20to what makes us tick.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25Women haven't only just discovered their dark sides.
0:04:25 > 0:04:29Today's crime fiction writers stand on the shoulders of some
0:04:29 > 0:04:31of the genre's most inventive minds,
0:04:31 > 0:04:36with little to connect them, other than someone is going to die.
0:04:36 > 0:04:40"Queens of crime" - dreadful expression,
0:04:40 > 0:04:44which we're united, I think, in disliking heartily.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47Where crime books were once concerned
0:04:47 > 0:04:49with the riddles of detection,
0:04:49 > 0:04:53a mystery to be solved, now the whodunnits are more likely to be
0:04:53 > 0:04:55why- and how-dunnits,
0:04:55 > 0:04:59as writers explore the reality of violent crime.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02You have a narrative where women are to blame
0:05:02 > 0:05:04for the worst things that men do
0:05:04 > 0:05:07and the way that they blame us is by saying that
0:05:07 > 0:05:09we're not perfect, that we're not good.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12Any woman who has sex, any woman who's had a drink,
0:05:12 > 0:05:16any woman who flirts, any woman who basically behaves in the way
0:05:16 > 0:05:20that human beings do are blamed for the worst of what men do.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27"This city's going to rue the day I was ever born.
0:05:27 > 0:05:29"People are going to pay.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33"I'll make sure certain people pay and you want to know why?
0:05:33 > 0:05:35"Because nobody who counts gives a damn
0:05:35 > 0:05:37"when women are raped and murdered.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41"The same bastards who work the cases go out on the town
0:05:41 > 0:05:45"and watch movies about women being raped, strangled, slashed.
0:05:45 > 0:05:49"To them it's sexy, they like to look at it in magazines.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51"They fantasise.
0:05:51 > 0:05:55"They probably get their rocks off by looking at the scene photographs.
0:05:55 > 0:05:59"The cops, they make jokes about it. I hear them laughing."
0:06:01 > 0:06:05'America's biggest selling female crime writer is Patricia Cornwell.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10'For three decades, she's published a novel almost every year
0:06:10 > 0:06:13'and sold over 100 million books.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16'There are a number of reasons not to mess with her.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20'Her Los Angeles apartment is a self-made museum
0:06:20 > 0:06:24'of Victorian crime paraphernalia and a ton of research material
0:06:24 > 0:06:26'to support her obsession
0:06:26 > 0:06:29'with finding out who was Jack the Ripper.'
0:06:29 > 0:06:31This is 1888...
0:06:31 > 0:06:35And this is just one book from 1888, this is just a few months of it.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38See all these under here? These are all 1888.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42This is July to September, April to June, January to March
0:06:42 > 0:06:46and this is the fall when the seven crimes that we know about...
0:06:46 > 0:06:48- I mean, at least... - Of the Ripper's crimes, yes.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50It was during the period that this book covered.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54Well, I'm just looking at this. It says, "Another Whitechapel murder.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56"During the early hours of yesterday morning,
0:06:56 > 0:07:00"another murder of a most revolting and fiendish character
0:07:00 > 0:07:01"took place in Spitalfields."
0:07:01 > 0:07:03This is not a fantasy.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06This is not some mythological creature, you know,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09in his top hat and his tails going through foggy alleyways.
0:07:09 > 0:07:11This was a violent psychopath
0:07:11 > 0:07:14who might have traversed the surface of life
0:07:14 > 0:07:18as a very normal and charming, relatively successful human being
0:07:18 > 0:07:20but that's who he was at his core.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24Autopsies weren't a staple of crime fiction
0:07:24 > 0:07:27until Patricia Cornwell came along.
0:07:27 > 0:07:31She created a forensic detective, Dr Kay Scarpetta,
0:07:31 > 0:07:35who's so far featured in 24 bestsellers.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39When Cornwell set out to write her first Scarpetta novel,
0:07:39 > 0:07:42she took a full-time job as an assistant in a morgue.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46Annie Leibovitz famously photographed her
0:07:46 > 0:07:49in 1997 for Vanity Fair.
0:07:49 > 0:07:54So, Patricia, it's now 25 years, more or less, since you invented
0:07:54 > 0:07:57the character of Dr Kay Scarpetta
0:07:57 > 0:08:01with the novel Postmortem, which is now a kind of landmark novel,
0:08:01 > 0:08:03but when it arrived, people were baffled by it...
0:08:03 > 0:08:06Oh, my God, that was a bad time.
0:08:06 > 0:08:08That was just one more broken dream because, you know,
0:08:08 > 0:08:11I'd had three books rejected before I wrote that one
0:08:11 > 0:08:14and I actually thought, "I think know what I'm doing now, finally."
0:08:14 > 0:08:18And the book came out, a very tiny printing of only 6,000,
0:08:18 > 0:08:19no publicity, nothing.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23It came out and a local bookstore decided to ban it because
0:08:23 > 0:08:26they thought it was too graphic and violent and that got picked up
0:08:26 > 0:08:30by the news and I was uninvited from the one or two little dinky signings
0:08:30 > 0:08:32I'd been asked to do at women's clubs and stuff
0:08:32 > 0:08:36and I thought, "I'm ruined and I've not even gotten started.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39"What's the matter with me? I can't do anything right."
0:08:40 > 0:08:44"I gently wedged a finger under the electrical cord ligature around
0:08:44 > 0:08:49"Lori Petersen's neck, exposing an angry furrow in the flesh.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51"The margin wasn't clearly defined,
0:08:51 > 0:08:54"the strangulation was slower than I'd originally thought.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57"I could see the faint abrasions from the cord's having slipped
0:08:57 > 0:08:58"in place several times.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02"It was loose enough to keep her barely alive for a while,
0:09:02 > 0:09:05"then suddenly it was jerked tight."
0:09:05 > 0:09:09The murders in Postmortem are drawn from a real-life case,
0:09:09 > 0:09:11that of the Southside Strangler,
0:09:11 > 0:09:15a serial killer who was the first American to be convicted
0:09:15 > 0:09:19using DNA evidence and sentenced to the electric chair.
0:09:19 > 0:09:25You drew on a story which was almost local, in Richmond, Virginia.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28I was working at the medical examiner's office
0:09:28 > 0:09:32when those cases began and the city literally was terrorised
0:09:32 > 0:09:35because these were women who were in their own homes,
0:09:35 > 0:09:39minding their own business, not doing anything that's high risk
0:09:39 > 0:09:42and someone's coming in and finding these unbelievably brutal crimes.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44And one of them was murdered in her bed
0:09:44 > 0:09:46while the family was sleeping in the house.
0:09:46 > 0:09:48They couldn't get her to open the door in the morning
0:09:48 > 0:09:50and when they went in there,
0:09:50 > 0:09:52she's bound in duct tape, and had been raped and strangled
0:09:52 > 0:09:54in the bed in the house.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56What kind of person does something like this?
0:09:56 > 0:09:59So I was scared to death.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Those descriptions though, even in Postmortem,
0:10:02 > 0:10:05were things which might have not just...
0:10:05 > 0:10:08sort of might have repelled some of those readers.
0:10:08 > 0:10:12I face this dilemma of how do I make this entertainment
0:10:12 > 0:10:15without adding to the problem, as I already perceive it,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18why I am so offended by all this,
0:10:18 > 0:10:20and so I thought, "You only have two choices.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23"You either turn your back and walk away and don't do it,
0:10:23 > 0:10:25"or you just get right in there
0:10:25 > 0:10:27"and you do it through Scarpetta's perspective
0:10:27 > 0:10:29"and you show violence for what it is.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32"You don't celebrate it, you condemn it."
0:10:32 > 0:10:34But that was a conscious decision of mine that I said,
0:10:34 > 0:10:36"I'm not going to make this pretty.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39"This is not going to be the drowned poet Shelley, you know, at Oxford.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41"'Ahhh, you look so beautiful
0:10:41 > 0:10:43"'when you've been floating in the water for days.'"
0:10:43 > 0:10:45I don't think so. No. I'm sorry.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47If Scarpetta's going to show you what she does,
0:10:47 > 0:10:49she's damn well going to show it to you,
0:10:49 > 0:10:53so of course I have empathy for the victims,
0:10:53 > 0:10:55and that's where I get my ideas as I go.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57I go into my fear hole.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59I've got a big, deep one there from my childhood
0:10:59 > 0:11:02and I just say, "Let me just reach over the edge and lift that out,
0:11:02 > 0:11:04"and then I'm going to go away from it and close the lid,"
0:11:04 > 0:11:07and I pull scary characters out of that place,
0:11:07 > 0:11:08cos I had a lot of them.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26Forensic science is now a staple of crime fiction.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29It's also one of the only science disciplines
0:11:29 > 0:11:31that is overwhelmingly female.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36At the University of Dundee, Professor Sue Black
0:11:36 > 0:11:39is a world-leading forensic anthropologist.
0:11:39 > 0:11:43Here she's adopted the revolutionary Thiel method,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46a new way of embalming which leaves the body more flexible.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51These students are about to meet the dead body
0:11:51 > 0:11:53that they will practise dissection on.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55This is the first time
0:11:55 > 0:11:58that they've been introduced to their cadaver.
0:11:59 > 0:12:02- Does everybody look like...?- No.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05This one, there's been a little bit of dissection done on this body,
0:12:05 > 0:12:09so some of it's opened up, and you can see that, obviously,
0:12:09 > 0:12:11one of her students, I suspect, has been looking at veins.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13Yeah, so they've been opening up the skin
0:12:13 > 0:12:16to see what some of the veins look like.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19But the flexibility is what's important about this,
0:12:19 > 0:12:22is that the bodies are completely flexible.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25- Can I just touch? - Yes, of course you can.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28So, if you move the hand.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30Just at the wrist there.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34- Oh, my God.- You can see just how flexible that is.- Yes.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37And that's what's really important for our surgeons.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39- Is that flexibility.- Right.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43- Is it what you expected? - We were talking about this,
0:12:43 > 0:12:46and we kind of pictured just, like, a regular body, but paler.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50We didn't expect it to be all sunken like it is cos of the Thiel fluid,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53and how the eyes, they're all flattened as well.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55- The slack-jawedness.- Faces are hard.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59Faces are hard in terms of being able to deal with them.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09Sue Black's work takes her into areas of death investigation
0:13:09 > 0:13:13that make for rich plunderings for many crime fiction writers.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16The bestselling novelist Val McDermid
0:13:16 > 0:13:19has been consulting with her for over 20 years.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23Val is now up to her 31st novel,
0:13:23 > 0:13:27and when she has an idea for a new method of killing,
0:13:27 > 0:13:29she needs Sue to provide the science.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32- Hello.- Hello!
0:13:32 > 0:13:34- How are you?- I'm very well. - Good.- How are you?
0:13:34 > 0:13:37- All the better for seeing you. - And you, too.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41- Come and tell me what you're going to write.- Well...
0:13:41 > 0:13:45A killer is strangling his victims and putting them in their own car,
0:13:45 > 0:13:48driving them to a remote location, putting them in the driver's seat,
0:13:48 > 0:13:50setting fire to the car.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52The intention is twofold.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55One is to obscure forensic traces of his presence
0:13:55 > 0:13:57and the other is to try and confuse the issue
0:13:57 > 0:14:01about whether or not this is a murder or something other.
0:14:01 > 0:14:04When you burn a body,
0:14:04 > 0:14:07you know when you cook a piece of roast beef
0:14:07 > 0:14:10and you stick it into a hot oven
0:14:10 > 0:14:13and it can burn on the outside but can be raw on the inside?
0:14:13 > 0:14:17So, a short duration intensity fire
0:14:17 > 0:14:20will give you cooking on the outside,
0:14:20 > 0:14:23but will still give you soft tissue on the inside.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26You kill a lot of people in your books.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30- You wouldn't deny that, would you? - No. That's my job, really,
0:14:30 > 0:14:32killing people for fun and profit.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35And yet you tell me you're squeamish.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38I'm very squeamish. I really don't like blood.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40But, you know...
0:14:40 > 0:14:43The squeamishness doesn't affect the work,
0:14:43 > 0:14:45because I know that's not real.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49There's a distance between me and the blood, if you like.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53I was always the person watching ER going, "No, I can't look at that."
0:14:53 > 0:14:56- You know. So, that's... - But...- Big Jessie.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58If you're going to strangle somebody...
0:14:58 > 0:15:01I've wanted to do this for a long time!
0:15:01 > 0:15:04- That's sore, isn't it?- It's... - It's really sore.- It's tender.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06- You can feel a spring.- Yeah.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08That's what you're pressing on, are these.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12So, that little bit of spring that you could feel is that spring.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14- Right.- OK?
0:15:14 > 0:15:17- Now, if that's a horseshoe...- Yeah.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20- ..and you squeeze them, it's going to break.- Yeah.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22- SHE EXCLAIMS - Just like that.
0:15:22 > 0:15:23Oops.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30"The deep slash to the throat had virtually decapitated the man,
0:15:30 > 0:15:34"leaving the head tilted as if hinged at the back of the neck.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36"Tony took a deep breath and said,
0:15:36 > 0:15:39"'Sentinel Times said they'd all died from having their throats cut.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41"'Is that right?'
0:15:41 > 0:15:42"'Yes,' Carol said.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44"'They were all tortured while they were still alive,
0:15:44 > 0:15:48"'but it's the throat wounds that have been fatal in each case.'"
0:15:48 > 0:15:52In the mid-'90s, serial killers dominated crime fiction.
0:15:52 > 0:15:56Val McDermid did something unexpected with one of hers.
0:15:56 > 0:16:02She created a psychopath who mutilated and tortured his victims,
0:16:02 > 0:16:04victims who were all men.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08I started to wonder how it would alter the investigation
0:16:08 > 0:16:10if the victims were male,
0:16:10 > 0:16:13how it would affect the way the police viewed these crimes
0:16:13 > 0:16:16because the idea of men being the victims of sexual homicide
0:16:16 > 0:16:19was not comfortable for them to deal with,
0:16:19 > 0:16:22how it would affect the media coverage of the crimes
0:16:22 > 0:16:25and how it would affect how the investigation played out.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30If he's smart enough to pose his body in the driver's seat
0:16:30 > 0:16:31with the head back...
0:16:31 > 0:16:34Would you think about doing that if you were a murderer?
0:16:34 > 0:16:37- I would.- Well... - I've never been caught so far!
0:16:37 > 0:16:40- You're not your average kind of killer.- Yeah.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42Not been caught so far.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45In terms of victims,
0:16:45 > 0:16:50where do you stand in terms of the count of male and female victims?
0:16:50 > 0:16:53I haven't done a headcount for a long time, if I'm honest,
0:16:53 > 0:16:56but I remember someone raising this some years ago,
0:16:56 > 0:16:59accusing me of being misogynist and violent towards women,
0:16:59 > 0:17:02and I did do a headcount at the time, and at that point,
0:17:02 > 0:17:06I had killed 12 men, 12 women and one transgendered person.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09I think it's harder to get more equal ops than that, really.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12I think probably on balance
0:17:12 > 0:17:15there are more female victims than male,
0:17:15 > 0:17:19but that's because that kind of reflects the way the world is.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24Serial killers are rare.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28The demons that we might find harder to run away from
0:17:28 > 0:17:30are the ones that haunt our psyche.
0:17:32 > 0:17:34I think I am very interested in madness,
0:17:34 > 0:17:36and I like writing about it.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38I like reading about it,
0:17:38 > 0:17:41reading about types of psychopathy and madness
0:17:41 > 0:17:42and then putting them on paper.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48I have been asked if I think I get rid of violence in my own nature,
0:17:48 > 0:17:51because I don't think I am a very violent person at all,
0:17:51 > 0:17:53- but I'm not aware of it.- Yeah.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55But, of course, if it's in my unconscious,
0:17:55 > 0:17:57I wouldn't be aware of it, would I?
0:18:00 > 0:18:05What did I do between five o'clock and 10.15? What was I doing?
0:18:05 > 0:18:07I imagine myself going into the house.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09I think about sliding open the glass doors,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12stealthily creeping into the kitchen,
0:18:12 > 0:18:14and her sitting at her table.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16I grab her from behind,
0:18:16 > 0:18:19I wind my hand into her long, blonde hair,
0:18:19 > 0:18:21I jerk her head backwards, I pull her to the floor
0:18:21 > 0:18:25and I smash her head against the cool blue tiles.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29Paula Hawkins's novel
0:18:29 > 0:18:33was number one on the UK hardback list for over 30 weeks.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36No other book has ever done that.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39It's the story of an out-of-work alcoholic
0:18:39 > 0:18:43who on the daily commuter train to a job she no longer has
0:18:43 > 0:18:47gazes into the houses on the street where she used to live.
0:18:47 > 0:18:51Her constant blackouts make her an unreliable witness
0:18:51 > 0:18:52to a terrible crime.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55She can't even be sure whether she is the killer.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00Can you explain... or what's your rationale
0:19:00 > 0:19:04for why your book has been so astonishingly successful?
0:19:04 > 0:19:07I mean, you had written a few books which didn't get that reception.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09- I certainly had.- Yes!
0:19:09 > 0:19:10No, I can't.
0:19:10 > 0:19:14I mean, if I knew exactly why it had done quite so well,
0:19:14 > 0:19:17I would do exactly the same thing again, and I don't know.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20There were clearly things that people latched onto.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23I mean, the voyeuristic impulse that Rachel has is universal.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26Everybody sits... Now everybody sits on the train and stares at their phone,
0:19:26 > 0:19:30but in the old days, everybody used to sit on the train and watch people around them.
0:19:30 > 0:19:31Now you're looking on Facebook
0:19:31 > 0:19:34and, you know, watching people voyeuristically in that way.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36But that impulse is universal.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38I think that was something people related to.
0:19:38 > 0:19:42I think the character of Rachel, being as unusual as she is, she...
0:19:42 > 0:19:45a lot of people... Well, not everyone likes her,
0:19:45 > 0:19:48but, you know, she provokes a reaction in most people.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51But the fact that Rachel is a bit of a mess one way or another
0:19:51 > 0:19:54and kind of rather a flawed character...
0:19:54 > 0:19:56She doesn't fit the familiar pattern
0:19:56 > 0:19:58- of central characters in crime fiction, does she?- Yeah.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02I wasn't interested in writing some sort of happy, sunny person.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04I wanted to write someone who was a mess
0:20:04 > 0:20:06and who had all these things to overcome
0:20:06 > 0:20:10and who was, essentially, incredibly unreliable,
0:20:10 > 0:20:11not just to others but to herself,
0:20:11 > 0:20:14because she can't remember what she did last night.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17All these things seemed to me to open up lots of avenues to explore.
0:20:19 > 0:20:21Paula Hawkins's flawed, drunken voyeur
0:20:21 > 0:20:23not only caught imaginations here,
0:20:23 > 0:20:26Hollywood immediately made the movie.
0:20:29 > 0:20:30My husband...
0:20:30 > 0:20:34He used to tell me what I'd done the night before.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41And I learnt when you wake up like that, you just say you're sorry.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47You just say you're sorry for what you did
0:20:47 > 0:20:49and you're sorry for who you are,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52and you're never going to do it again.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54But you do. You do it again.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00This sort of crime fiction deals very seriously
0:21:00 > 0:21:02with things that go wrong in women's lives and women's roles.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05And, yes, in some cases they are victims,
0:21:05 > 0:21:07but they're not only victims, there's so much more to it.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11You're not just talking about a pretty dead body on page one
0:21:11 > 0:21:13that you never really learn about.
0:21:13 > 0:21:15I'm just asking a provocative question.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17Do you write what you actually want to write
0:21:17 > 0:21:19or just think, "I've got to make some money here"?
0:21:19 > 0:21:23I honestly didn't think a sort of slightly depressing story
0:21:23 > 0:21:26about an alcoholic obsessed with her ex-husband
0:21:26 > 0:21:28was going to be a huge money-spinner.
0:21:28 > 0:21:30I thought it would be quite a quiet book.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32It was a story I was interested in telling.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35Mostly I was interested in that character and her memory loss
0:21:35 > 0:21:39and how her memory loss affects her sense of self
0:21:39 > 0:21:41and her sense of guilt and responsibility.
0:21:41 > 0:21:42So it didn't seem to me like,
0:21:42 > 0:21:45"Ooh, yes, this is going to be a huge blockbuster."
0:21:47 > 0:21:49The Girl On The Train,
0:21:49 > 0:21:52along with that other psychological thriller, Gone Girl,
0:21:52 > 0:21:56were the standout literary sensations of recent years.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00At book festivals, publishers are desperate to figure out
0:22:00 > 0:22:03what will be the next must-read novel.
0:22:03 > 0:22:04The market seems to be dominated
0:22:04 > 0:22:07by these domestic noir psychological thrillers,
0:22:07 > 0:22:09so that's a huge trend.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11- And written by women. - And written by women.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13And I guess what I'm trying to do in my job
0:22:13 > 0:22:17is to think...what will people be reading in a year's time?
0:22:17 > 0:22:20So, something I'm kind of looking for at the moment
0:22:20 > 0:22:24is a warmer, cosier crime read.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26- Warmer and cosier?- I know.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28I think the market might swing back round
0:22:28 > 0:22:31to those Agatha Christie, golden age, locked room mysteries.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33But then they're things which are sort of
0:22:33 > 0:22:36slightly remote from real life, whereas a psychological thriller
0:22:36 > 0:22:39- is taking us more into domestic situations.- Yeah.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41That's not going to make you a better person, is it,
0:22:41 > 0:22:43inform you about the world?
0:22:43 > 0:22:45- What, the cosy crime genre?- Yeah.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47It's about exploring human character,
0:22:47 > 0:22:51so, you know, the Agatha Christie novels
0:22:51 > 0:22:53might seem a superficial puzzle,
0:22:53 > 0:22:56but actually, they're about human characters
0:22:56 > 0:22:58and about how people interact,
0:22:58 > 0:23:01so I think cosies can have depth and psychological insight
0:23:01 > 0:23:03that thrillers have as well.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05I'm standing outside the Ambassadors Theatre
0:23:05 > 0:23:07in the heart of London's West End,
0:23:07 > 0:23:11where the curtain has just come down on performance 8,320
0:23:11 > 0:23:14of The Mousetrap by Agatha Christie,
0:23:14 > 0:23:17which makes it far and away the longest-running play
0:23:17 > 0:23:19in the history of the British theatre.
0:23:19 > 0:23:21Why do people still flock to see it?
0:23:21 > 0:23:25Because I like whodunnits and I like Agatha Christie.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27What do you think makes it such a successful play?
0:23:27 > 0:23:29Because nobody tells you who it is.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32What do you think makes it such a successful play?
0:23:32 > 0:23:34Because it's clean.
0:23:35 > 0:23:36The cosy version of Christie
0:23:36 > 0:23:39is something that we've had on our televisions on Sunday nights
0:23:39 > 0:23:41for decades,
0:23:41 > 0:23:44but there's another, lesser-known side to Agatha Christie,
0:23:44 > 0:23:47and it hasn't often made it to our screens.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50Last year, Sarah Phelps changed that
0:23:50 > 0:23:52when she adapted And Then There Were None,
0:23:52 > 0:23:55an incredibly bleak story
0:23:55 > 0:23:59which nonetheless was a huge hit in the Christmas schedule.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03Phelps is now adapting another of Christie's dark tales,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06The Witness For The Prosecution.
0:24:06 > 0:24:11What is it about the appeal of Agatha Christie, do you think?
0:24:11 > 0:24:15Here's the thing. First of all, I have to make a confession,
0:24:15 > 0:24:16which is...
0:24:16 > 0:24:19before I got sent And Then There Were None to read,
0:24:19 > 0:24:20I'd never read an Agatha Christie.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22I thought I knew what it was,
0:24:22 > 0:24:25which was murderers, cosy tea-time entertainment.
0:24:25 > 0:24:30There's a dead body on the carpet, on the rug, by the veranda doors.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33It's really interrupted somebody's tennis. How annoying.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36And here comes the outsider, or the investigator.
0:24:36 > 0:24:39In they come and find out who it was. It was whoever over there.
0:24:39 > 0:24:42And they package up the Englishness and make it safe again.
0:24:42 > 0:24:46The outsider makes Englishness safe again. It's cosy.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49And then I got sent this book to read.
0:24:49 > 0:24:53Phelps's version of Christie's tale is unremittingly dark.
0:24:53 > 0:24:56The ten strangers invited to an isolated island
0:24:56 > 0:24:58all have a guilty secret
0:24:58 > 0:25:00and one by one will be killed.
0:25:01 > 0:25:07- 'Ladies and gentlemen, silence, please.'- Who is that?
0:25:07 > 0:25:11'You and charged with the following indictments.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14'Edward George Armstrong,
0:25:14 > 0:25:17- 'that you murdered Louisa...' - Who is this?
0:25:17 > 0:25:21- I don't know, sir. - 'Emily Caroline Brent,
0:25:21 > 0:25:24- 'that you murdered Beatrice Taylor.' - Who is this?
0:25:24 > 0:25:27What really shocked me was how savage it was.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30The savagery of it just takes your breath away.
0:25:30 > 0:25:31So uncosy.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34There was no-one coming to solve the problem,
0:25:34 > 0:25:36there was no-one coming to make it better.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38It's a portrait of a psychopath,
0:25:38 > 0:25:41and it's utterly, utterly brutal, and it thrilled me to bits.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51Two little soldier boys sitting in the sun.
0:25:53 > 0:25:57One got frizzled up, and then there was one.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03For her adaptation of The Witness For The Prosecution,
0:26:03 > 0:26:08Phelps has taken Agatha Christie's original short story
0:26:08 > 0:26:12and has fleshed out the dark possibilities she sees within it.
0:26:12 > 0:26:13It's 1923,
0:26:13 > 0:26:17and a young man is accused of killing an older rich socialite.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21Somehow, the concept of Christie
0:26:21 > 0:26:24is one which is about plot and unravelling
0:26:24 > 0:26:26and riddles and whodunnits,
0:26:26 > 0:26:30and is it just your sort of wilful desires and fears
0:26:30 > 0:26:33which have found their way into your interpretation of Agatha Christie?
0:26:33 > 0:26:35Well, quite possibly, yeah.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38It could quite possibly be my wilful desires and fears,
0:26:38 > 0:26:40but I've always kind of imagined
0:26:40 > 0:26:42that when it comes down to the sort of, like...
0:26:42 > 0:26:44the Christies where you've got Marple and where you've got Poirot,
0:26:44 > 0:26:47that, actually, the body on the floor isn't that meaningful.
0:26:47 > 0:26:51But for me, the body on the floor is really important,
0:26:51 > 0:26:53because if you don't care about the body on the floor,
0:26:53 > 0:26:56then you don't care about the person who put the body on the floor,
0:26:56 > 0:26:58and if you don't care about the person who put the body on the floor
0:26:58 > 0:27:00and why they did it,
0:27:00 > 0:27:03then I don't see the point of telling the story, I really don't.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13Where there's a body, there's a killer.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16In the 1950s, a writer came along
0:27:16 > 0:27:20who would take us straight into the mind of the murderer.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27"Would a corpse burn enough in the open to become ashes?
0:27:27 > 0:27:29"Didn't it require a sort of oven to augment the heat?
0:27:31 > 0:27:34"The bones were not going to burn, he knew.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36"It would mean another grave.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38"He'd have to get a shovel somewhere."
0:27:38 > 0:27:42Patricia Highsmith created Tom Ripley,
0:27:42 > 0:27:46a likeable psychopath who kills to escape difficult situations,
0:27:46 > 0:27:50with a logic that seems almost excusable.
0:27:50 > 0:27:54I don't think that, really, somehow, murder is my theme.
0:27:54 > 0:27:55If anybody wants to ask me,
0:27:55 > 0:27:57I will say guilt.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00- Guilt?- The absence or the presence of guilt is the...
0:28:00 > 0:28:02Guilt and morality?
0:28:02 > 0:28:06- Well, yes, naturally, it goes into morality.- Yeah.
0:28:06 > 0:28:08This is what I'm inclined to do, which is,
0:28:08 > 0:28:10"Oh, my God, what have I done?" you know.
0:28:10 > 0:28:11This can be a pain in the neck,
0:28:11 > 0:28:14whereas Ripley, he's very gay about what he's done,
0:28:14 > 0:28:16he doesn't give a damn,
0:28:16 > 0:28:19and gets away with it.
0:28:19 > 0:28:20Very cool.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23So far, but what are you going to do with him?
0:28:23 > 0:28:25He'll always get away with it.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27- Oh.- He will?- Mm.- He will?- Mm.
0:28:27 > 0:28:28CAT PURRS
0:28:31 > 0:28:34The rationale of Tom Ripley makes us wonder,
0:28:34 > 0:28:38given the right prodding, what we, too, might be capable of.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43Real life serial killers are different,
0:28:43 > 0:28:46usually defined as someone who kills two or more people
0:28:46 > 0:28:49at different times and places.
0:28:49 > 0:28:52They're driven by a motivation that could be anything from anger,
0:28:52 > 0:28:56thrill-seeking or sexual gratification.
0:28:57 > 0:29:02In Montreal, there was a particularly gruesome case.
0:29:02 > 0:29:04"Her head had been cut off high in the neck,
0:29:04 > 0:29:09"and the truncated muscles looked bright poppy red.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12"The pallid skin rolled back gently at the severed edges
0:29:12 > 0:29:15"as if recoiling from contact with the fresh, raw meat.
0:29:17 > 0:29:19"Her right hand had been partially detached
0:29:19 > 0:29:22"and the ends of the creamy white tendons
0:29:22 > 0:29:25"jutted out like snapped electrical cords.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27"With a stab of pain,
0:29:27 > 0:29:30"I'd noticed that her toenails were painted a soft pink.
0:29:30 > 0:29:34"The intimacy of that simple act had caused me such an ache
0:29:34 > 0:29:36"that I wanted to cover her,
0:29:36 > 0:29:39"to scream at all of them to leave her alone.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42"Instead, I'd stood and watched,
0:29:42 > 0:29:44"waiting for my turn to trespass."
0:29:44 > 0:29:48In the '90s, Kathy Reichs, here in her lab in Quebec,
0:29:48 > 0:29:51was working at the forefront of forensic anthropology
0:29:51 > 0:29:56and human identification, and specialising in cold cases,
0:29:56 > 0:30:00where the only means of identifying a body was through the bones.
0:30:00 > 0:30:02Her work would bring her close
0:30:02 > 0:30:05to some of the most gruesome crimes in Canada's history.
0:30:05 > 0:30:09Anna-Maria Codina disappeared without a trace three years ago.
0:30:09 > 0:30:11She told her mother she was going out on a date
0:30:11 > 0:30:13with a man she'd met at work.
0:30:13 > 0:30:17On Friday, 36-year-old Serge Archambault was arrested
0:30:17 > 0:30:20in connection with her case and two others.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24The victim in St Calixte that was found January 6th had been shot.
0:30:25 > 0:30:30The second victim found on November 26th
0:30:30 > 0:30:32hadn't been shot. She...
0:30:34 > 0:30:37She died from asphyxiation...
0:30:37 > 0:30:41Serge Archambault came to be known as the Butcher of St Eustache,
0:30:41 > 0:30:44both for his day job and for what he did to his victims,
0:30:44 > 0:30:49some of whose bodies he buried in woodlands across Montreal.
0:30:49 > 0:30:53Kathy Reichs turned her experience of the case into her first novel.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56Who was this killer? What was this about?
0:30:56 > 0:31:00Yeah, of course, at the outset we didn't know. Two women were killed.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02I was not involved in those first two cases because
0:31:02 > 0:31:05those were fresh bodies, they went straight to the pathologist,
0:31:05 > 0:31:08but when he was arrested he admitted to having killed a third woman
0:31:08 > 0:31:10two years earlier, cut her up
0:31:10 > 0:31:13and buried her in five different locations, so that was the case
0:31:13 > 0:31:16that I was involved in. It was not a question of ID.
0:31:16 > 0:31:21We had a name, so she could be identified by dental records,
0:31:21 > 0:31:24but what I did is I looked at the bones to see if there was
0:31:24 > 0:31:29anything we could find there that told us something about
0:31:29 > 0:31:33manner of death or manner of body treatment, and what I found
0:31:33 > 0:31:38was an unusual pattern, without going into detail, of dismemberment.
0:31:38 > 0:31:41And I testified to that. I testified that probably
0:31:41 > 0:31:45whoever did this, and I didn't know who they were suspecting,
0:31:45 > 0:31:48had a knowledge of anatomy, such as a butcher.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52And did he get his comeuppance in the end?
0:31:52 > 0:31:55He was convicted of three counts of first-degree murder.
0:31:55 > 0:31:59- So you should be safe for a while. - For a while, yeah, I think so!
0:32:00 > 0:32:04Cold case investigation has become a rich seam for crime writers,
0:32:04 > 0:32:07where forgotten cases can be dug up again
0:32:07 > 0:32:11and killers who may have got away with it are finally caught.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15And how do you get to the bones?
0:32:15 > 0:32:18Sometimes what I get are just bones.
0:32:18 > 0:32:21Those are lovely cases, nice, dry bones.
0:32:21 > 0:32:24If it's a decomposed body,
0:32:24 > 0:32:29then I would have to clean off the flesh and get down to...
0:32:29 > 0:32:32Boiling is a little simplistic.
0:32:32 > 0:32:34There's a process of removing flesh from bones,
0:32:34 > 0:32:36and then I would do the analysis.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39When you said boiling, what do you mean by that?
0:32:39 > 0:32:41Well, you don't really boil them
0:32:41 > 0:32:45but you put them in an apparatus that's like a giant cooker,
0:32:45 > 0:32:47and then you slowly, um...
0:32:49 > 0:32:53..cook it until the flesh can be detached cleanly from the bones.
0:32:53 > 0:32:57You talk about this in a way that's very natural to you because
0:32:57 > 0:32:58it's your work and everyday life,
0:32:58 > 0:33:02but some of those descriptions are incredibly gruesome, obviously,
0:33:02 > 0:33:05and yet people obviously, that's what people like to read.
0:33:05 > 0:33:06What is it about that?
0:33:06 > 0:33:10Well, some people. Some people don't want to have anything to do with it
0:33:10 > 0:33:13but my books are not for everyone.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16I mean, they are quite detailed.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18It's important to me, two things -
0:33:18 > 0:33:20one is to get the science correct and accurate
0:33:20 > 0:33:24because I think people do read my books because they want a sense of,
0:33:24 > 0:33:27"Well, how does that work?" So I do put in details
0:33:27 > 0:33:32but I never want to put in anything just for sensationalism,
0:33:32 > 0:33:36just put in gore to make it sensational and grisly
0:33:36 > 0:33:37and attractive in that way,
0:33:37 > 0:33:41so it's a balance between doing those two things.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51Most of us don't need to worry about serial killers.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55We need to worry about who we live with.
0:33:56 > 0:34:02The female crime writer Nicci French is actually a he and a she,
0:34:02 > 0:34:05married couple Nicci Gerrard and Sean French.
0:34:05 > 0:34:10They write from home. She has the attic, he has the shed.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16I think there's a real danger in me saying, you know,
0:34:16 > 0:34:18because I'm this man who suddenly found himself
0:34:18 > 0:34:21as a female crime writer, saying it must be because
0:34:21 > 0:34:24I've got a very particular understanding of the female psyche
0:34:24 > 0:34:25and the female imagination.
0:34:25 > 0:34:28Well, I must say, we have three daughters and if they heard me
0:34:28 > 0:34:31saying that I had a very particular understanding of women,
0:34:31 > 0:34:36they would first laugh and then get very irritated, so absolutely not.
0:34:38 > 0:34:39We never write together
0:34:39 > 0:34:41and we never write in the same room together either.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44We have such different writing lives, if you like,
0:34:44 > 0:34:47but there was one time when we did that as well
0:34:47 > 0:34:50and it was a big disaster, so I was sitting there,
0:34:50 > 0:34:53kind of over-concentrated and frowning and trying to write,
0:34:53 > 0:34:55and Sean kind of started later than me.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58He kind of wandered in. Very nicely, he gave me coffee.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01He kind of sat down for about ten minutes,
0:35:01 > 0:35:05he looked out of the window and saw a bird that he didn't recognise
0:35:05 > 0:35:07and he got out a bird book and we identified it
0:35:07 > 0:35:11and then he started saying what we were going to have for lunch.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13And the final straw was when
0:35:13 > 0:35:18he started saying that he thought we should learn Russian together,
0:35:18 > 0:35:20and at that point, that was it.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23We've never sat down in the same room to work together since then.
0:35:27 > 0:35:30Nicci French novels are dark thrillers.
0:35:30 > 0:35:34They explore the terrors that lurk in the very place
0:35:34 > 0:35:36you should feel safe - your home.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39You decided on Nicci French
0:35:39 > 0:35:43but you could have decided on Sean Gerrard, couldn't you?
0:35:43 > 0:35:46And a whole other world would have opened up in front of us.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50Yes, it's true. I mean, the first book that we wrote, The Memory Game,
0:35:50 > 0:35:53because of its subject matter, which was about false or recovered memory,
0:35:53 > 0:35:56which happened almost entirely to women,
0:35:56 > 0:36:00we had to have a female narrator, and because we had a female narrator
0:36:00 > 0:36:02it just made absolute sense to us
0:36:02 > 0:36:04that we should have a female persona,
0:36:04 > 0:36:06that the name on the book jacket,
0:36:06 > 0:36:10it was always only going to be one name, was going to be a female name.
0:36:10 > 0:36:12The birth of Nicci French came from that.
0:36:12 > 0:36:19After that, Nicci French became a female psychological thriller writer
0:36:19 > 0:36:22who wrote from the perspective of a woman.
0:36:22 > 0:36:25"Freda sat up and listened but heard nothing,
0:36:25 > 0:36:27"except the soft wind outside.
0:36:29 > 0:36:30"She swung her feet to the floor,
0:36:30 > 0:36:34"feeling the cat wind its body around her legs, purring,
0:36:34 > 0:36:38"and then stood, still weak and nauseous from the night terrors.
0:36:38 > 0:36:43"There had been something. She was certain. Something downstairs."
0:36:43 > 0:36:46"She pulled on tracksuit bottoms and a T-shirt
0:36:46 > 0:36:50"and made her way onto the landing, then, step-by-step,
0:36:50 > 0:36:53"gripping the banisters, down the stairs, stopping halfway."
0:36:54 > 0:36:58The crime novel, the thriller, is such a wonderful, elastic genre.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02It allows us to think about all those things which kind of feel
0:37:02 > 0:37:04somehow a bit taboo or feel scary, you know -
0:37:04 > 0:37:09what is it like to feel jealous, to be bereaved, to be scared,
0:37:09 > 0:37:14to feel lonely, to feel kind of somehow that life has passed you by?
0:37:14 > 0:37:16And then you just turn the dial a bit
0:37:16 > 0:37:18and it becomes a crime novel as well
0:37:18 > 0:37:23so it's like safely allowing you to explore all those hidden fears.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26You talked about this concept that coming together you become one,
0:37:26 > 0:37:30so like Bonnie and Clyde are more lethal together than they are alone.
0:37:30 > 0:37:34There's this psychological idea, folie a deux, where people,
0:37:34 > 0:37:37where two people get together and often people who wouldn't have done
0:37:37 > 0:37:41anything on their own but they'll commit terrible crimes together
0:37:41 > 0:37:42because they sort of spur each other on,
0:37:42 > 0:37:46and I really think that when it's really worked with us,
0:37:46 > 0:37:50we do that, we just push each other into strange areas and, you know,
0:37:50 > 0:37:53you are writing for readers but I think mainly I'm writing for Nicci,
0:37:53 > 0:37:57you know, and somehow thinking, "Well... Deal with this, Nicci!"
0:37:57 > 0:38:01- Or "This'll show you!" - So you can surprise each other?
0:38:01 > 0:38:04And that, we have to, otherwise why write together?
0:38:04 > 0:38:07If we knew everything that was going to happen as we wrote it and
0:38:07 > 0:38:10how it was going to happen, there's almost no point in writing it.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16"The house she knew so well had become unfamiliar,
0:38:16 > 0:38:18"full of shadows and secrets.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21"In the hall she stood and strained to hear
0:38:21 > 0:38:25"but there was nothing, nobody. She turned on the lights,
0:38:25 > 0:38:29"blinking in the sudden dazzle, and then she saw it.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32"A large, brown envelope lying on the doormat.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35"She stooped and picked it up.
0:38:35 > 0:38:40"And now she knew that he was near, in the street outside,
0:38:40 > 0:38:44"close to her home, to her place of refuge."
0:38:44 > 0:38:46SHE TYPES
0:38:48 > 0:38:50I think I am a frightened person,
0:38:50 > 0:38:54- that I am afraid of some sort of nemesis.- Yes.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57I do carry that about with me.
0:38:57 > 0:39:00I don't like the post when it comes.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03It's simply two kinds of people, aren't there, that the post comes
0:39:03 > 0:39:07- and they're all full of excitement at what it might be bringing...- Yes.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10..and I feel a kind of tightening of the muscles.
0:39:10 > 0:39:14I'd really like to make sure, I'd like to have a look at those letters
0:39:14 > 0:39:17and have a pretty good idea what's in them before I open them.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23One of Britain's most popular authors drags us into
0:39:23 > 0:39:26the ganglands of London's East End.
0:39:27 > 0:39:32Martina Cole's books give us gang executions, domestic violence,
0:39:32 > 0:39:36child prostitution, drugs, rape and murder.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39Her novel The Take was turned into a TV series
0:39:39 > 0:39:43with Tom Hardy playing the terrifying psychopath Freddie.
0:39:44 > 0:39:45My point is...
0:39:47 > 0:39:50My point is why this joker thinks he can earn on my turf
0:39:50 > 0:39:52without my fucking permission!
0:39:52 > 0:39:53- HE STAMMERS - You let him go now!
0:39:53 > 0:39:56Now, Shane, what you need to do, yeah, is tell your weekend warrior
0:39:56 > 0:39:58to put his fucking gun down and calm down, right?
0:39:58 > 0:40:00Cos all we want is your money.
0:40:00 > 0:40:01You better reconsider this.
0:40:01 > 0:40:05- Because from over here you're both fucked.- Fucked?! Poofter!
0:40:05 > 0:40:08You're not mincing around the bush now cos you're in fucking London!
0:40:08 > 0:40:10And you're way, way out of your league.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13How much has this got to do with how you grew up?
0:40:13 > 0:40:14You've had quite a life, haven't you?
0:40:14 > 0:40:18Well, my first boyfriend was a bank robber. I've never hidden that.
0:40:18 > 0:40:20Um, and he didn't know how old I was.
0:40:20 > 0:40:21I was 14 - he didn't know that.
0:40:21 > 0:40:23He thought I was my sister.
0:40:23 > 0:40:26I saw him on and off until I was 25,
0:40:26 > 0:40:28and he was very exciting.
0:40:28 > 0:40:29You write about what you know,
0:40:29 > 0:40:32and I know far more about the criminal element
0:40:32 > 0:40:33than I do about the police.
0:40:33 > 0:40:38Why are you a crime fiction writer? Why do you write in this genre?
0:40:38 > 0:40:39I don't know, I think because
0:40:39 > 0:40:42I was always obsessed with crime as a child.
0:40:42 > 0:40:45I love the whole concept of crime and, "Can you get away with it?"
0:40:45 > 0:40:48When I read Graham Greene, when I read Brighton Rock,
0:40:48 > 0:40:49I actually felt sorry for Pinkie,
0:40:49 > 0:40:52and I'm probably the only person in the world who thought,
0:40:52 > 0:40:54"What a terrible life he must have had!"
0:40:54 > 0:40:56And I was only about 11 or 12.
0:40:56 > 0:41:00So I think, even then, I was more interested in the criminal element
0:41:00 > 0:41:02than I was in the police element.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04You know - why do people commit crime?
0:41:04 > 0:41:06Is it nurture over nature, nature over nurture?
0:41:06 > 0:41:07We just don't know.
0:41:09 > 0:41:14Some of Martina Cole's most enthusiastic readers are criminals,
0:41:14 > 0:41:17and it's a readership she engages with directly.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20She often does workshops with convicts
0:41:20 > 0:41:22in prisons throughout the country.
0:41:23 > 0:41:26One of her biggest fans is the writer Erwin James,
0:41:26 > 0:41:30who spent 20 years in prison for double murder.
0:41:31 > 0:41:33Where did you first come across Martina?
0:41:33 > 0:41:36So I met her through her books, in jail, in prison.
0:41:36 > 0:41:37You know, I was a long-term prisoner.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39I wasn't a great reader particularly.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42However, Martina's books were very readable, you know.
0:41:42 > 0:41:44And they were...
0:41:44 > 0:41:46I discovered, the most borrowed from the prison library,
0:41:46 > 0:41:48and the most stolen.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51And, I mean, I lived a horrendous life
0:41:51 > 0:41:52and I read Martina's books and I thought,
0:41:52 > 0:41:54"Christ, she gets it, this girl.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58"She understands these vile lives." You know?
0:41:58 > 0:42:00It didn't make me want to be more vile,
0:42:00 > 0:42:02it just made me realise that,
0:42:02 > 0:42:05"Christ, I'm not unique in this life."
0:42:05 > 0:42:11She has insights into criminal thinking, criminal lifestyles,
0:42:11 > 0:42:13which are pretty... I think, pretty unique,
0:42:13 > 0:42:15and I think that's what endears her
0:42:15 > 0:42:18to so many people in prison, you know?
0:42:18 > 0:42:19It's not all murderers.
0:42:19 > 0:42:24Cole's books are as much about the women who live with, suffer by
0:42:24 > 0:42:27and, in her hands, stand up to the men.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31Of course, we've talked about the men to some extent.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34But the women are very central in your books,
0:42:34 > 0:42:37and they're both kind of strong and yet they're vulnerable as well,
0:42:37 > 0:42:40and they're victims and yet they fight back.
0:42:40 > 0:42:43I want my women to be... my women to be strong,
0:42:43 > 0:42:46and I want them to, you know, to overcome any adversity.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49And I think that's the whole concept of a book.
0:42:49 > 0:42:52And often times they start out very, very vulnerable, you know?
0:42:52 > 0:42:56They meet a man very young, which often happens, and, you know...
0:42:56 > 0:43:00And then, as the years go on, they have to toughen up.
0:43:00 > 0:43:02And I'm a great believer in toughening up.
0:43:02 > 0:43:07Also, I also believe that, you know, men get mad and women get even.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09You know? And I always say,
0:43:09 > 0:43:11you know, I'm the luckiest woman in the world,
0:43:11 > 0:43:14because I get to be with people I want to be with all the time,
0:43:14 > 0:43:15and spend hours with them.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18And if they get on my nerves, I can kill them.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20So it worked perfectly for me. Works perfectly.
0:43:22 > 0:43:26One of the truisms of crime fiction that doesn't sit well
0:43:26 > 0:43:30is the fact that scenes of graphic sexual violence against women
0:43:30 > 0:43:33are increasingly written by women.
0:43:33 > 0:43:37Julie Bindel is a journalist and campaigner for justice
0:43:37 > 0:43:40for female victims of sexual violence.
0:43:40 > 0:43:43She's also a big fan of crime fiction.
0:43:44 > 0:43:51I don't believe that girls are born good and potentially victimised.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54And I don't think that boys are born to rape and to murder.
0:43:54 > 0:43:59I think that that comes with the power that boy babies are ascribed
0:43:59 > 0:44:02by having a penis and by living under patriarchy.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05And so I like mess in sorting this out.
0:44:08 > 0:44:12Your work has brought you close to witnessing and understanding
0:44:12 > 0:44:15women's suffering at the hands of very violent men.
0:44:15 > 0:44:18And yet you're passionate about crime fiction.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22Well, I don't think that the two are mutually exclusive at all.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25I read crime fiction, good crime fiction...
0:44:26 > 0:44:28..BECAUSE I do the work that I do.
0:44:28 > 0:44:32So when I come back from a research trip to Albania,
0:44:32 > 0:44:38and I've heard about a trafficked woman who escaped her trafficker
0:44:38 > 0:44:42and was literally bricked inside a wall, alive, as punishment,
0:44:42 > 0:44:44and as a warning to the other trafficked women
0:44:44 > 0:44:48not to escape from the brothel, then what gets me to sleep at night?
0:44:48 > 0:44:51It's not that story that spins around in my head,
0:44:51 > 0:44:54because there is no good ending to that story.
0:44:54 > 0:44:58But it's the kind of crime novel where things are dealt with,
0:44:58 > 0:45:01that, at some stage, justice will be done.
0:45:01 > 0:45:04Even if the baddie isn't caught, she will be believed,
0:45:04 > 0:45:09someone will care about that corpse lying on the mortuary slab,
0:45:09 > 0:45:11people will want to solve these crimes.
0:45:11 > 0:45:17And that... Maybe what I've seen in my research can never be resolved,
0:45:17 > 0:45:21and that story can never come to an end.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25But with a crime novel, it can give you a sense of closure.
0:45:28 > 0:45:33There were over 88,000 sexual offences recorded by the police
0:45:33 > 0:45:35in the United Kingdom last year.
0:45:36 > 0:45:38Crimes of sexual violence against women
0:45:38 > 0:45:42are often at the heart of the work that forensic scientists do,
0:45:42 > 0:45:47as they look for new ways to improve crime detection and conviction.
0:45:49 > 0:45:51Can you tell me about some of these cases?
0:45:51 > 0:45:53For instance, tell me about the webcam.
0:45:53 > 0:45:55It's based in London, and it was a young girl
0:45:55 > 0:45:59who was alleging that her father was coming into her bedroom at night
0:45:59 > 0:46:00and interfering with her.
0:46:00 > 0:46:02She put up her Skype camera.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05And I don't know if you know, if you run your Skype camera at night,
0:46:05 > 0:46:07it clicks into infrared mode.
0:46:07 > 0:46:08And, in infrared mode...
0:46:08 > 0:46:11If you look at your veins under infrared light,
0:46:11 > 0:46:14they look like black tramlines, so they really stick out,
0:46:14 > 0:46:18because the infrared, the way it interacts with deoxygenated blood,
0:46:18 > 0:46:20makes it stand out.
0:46:20 > 0:46:24And so she put this camera on and, about half past four in the morning,
0:46:24 > 0:46:27you see a hand coming into view
0:46:27 > 0:46:29and interfering with her under the covers.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31And because it's in infrared,
0:46:31 > 0:46:33we have this beautiful view of the back of a hand
0:46:33 > 0:46:35and the back of a forearm,
0:46:35 > 0:46:38and you can see all the superficial vein patterns.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41And the police came to us and said, "What can we do with it?"
0:46:41 > 0:46:43We said, "We've absolutely no idea,
0:46:43 > 0:46:45"because we've never done anything like this before."
0:46:45 > 0:46:50So we did a comparison between the hand and the forearm
0:46:50 > 0:46:54of the individual in the video, and the vein patterns matched.
0:46:54 > 0:46:58We went through the trial and the jury found him not guilty.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01- And, at that point, we thought, "What have we done wrong?"- Mm.
0:47:01 > 0:47:05Because, you know, we think this is about as clear as it can get.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08We asked the barrister if she would mind going away to the jury
0:47:08 > 0:47:11and asking, "What did we do wrong?"
0:47:11 > 0:47:16And what's probably the scariest thing I've ever heard in my life
0:47:16 > 0:47:19was that she came back and said, "You didn't do anything wrong.
0:47:19 > 0:47:22"They believed the science, they thought that was fine.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25"They didn't believe the girl because she wasn't upset enough."
0:47:34 > 0:47:38'In America, the relationship between forensic investigation
0:47:38 > 0:47:41'and crime fiction has an unusual showpiece,
0:47:41 > 0:47:44'given to detectives by a crime writer
0:47:44 > 0:47:47'and named after her most famous character.'
0:47:47 > 0:47:49This is our training facility.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51We call it the Scarpetta House.
0:47:52 > 0:47:55This was donated by Patricia Cornwell, the novelist,
0:47:55 > 0:47:58and we use this to set up death scenes
0:47:58 > 0:48:00to train our forensic investigators.
0:48:00 > 0:48:06We can do shootings, stabbings, hangings, poisonings -
0:48:06 > 0:48:08you name it.
0:48:08 > 0:48:10And you never know what you'll find.
0:48:18 > 0:48:19Oh, my God!
0:48:19 > 0:48:21She's in the cupboard.
0:48:21 > 0:48:23Oh! That's shocking.
0:48:25 > 0:48:29'Patricia Cornwell's Scarpetta House is in Baltimore,
0:48:29 > 0:48:32'in the same building as the doll's houses and the mortuary.
0:48:33 > 0:48:36'If you die in Baltimore in an unexplained way,
0:48:36 > 0:48:39'this is where you're going to end up.'
0:48:39 > 0:48:41I just saw a sheet today that came in,
0:48:41 > 0:48:44which had someone who hanged himself in prison,
0:48:44 > 0:48:47there were people who died of gunshot wounds,
0:48:47 > 0:48:49there were people who were decomposed.
0:48:49 > 0:48:52- That was all within the last 24 hours?- Yes, sir.
0:48:52 > 0:48:57They had a total today of about 18 cases.
0:48:57 > 0:49:00Um, lately we've been getting a caseload
0:49:00 > 0:49:05anywhere from 15 to 20, 25 bodies a day.
0:49:11 > 0:49:13Baltimore is an unusual city
0:49:13 > 0:49:17for its crossover between crime fiction and reality.
0:49:17 > 0:49:19Scarred by vacant housing,
0:49:19 > 0:49:22the fallout of a war on drugs and gang warfare -
0:49:22 > 0:49:24rich pickings for crime writers,
0:49:24 > 0:49:29many of whom cut their teeth at the crime desks of city newspapers.
0:49:30 > 0:49:33The Baltimore Sun has nurtured more than its fair share.
0:49:36 > 0:49:39Hi, this is Alison Knezevich from The Sun.
0:49:39 > 0:49:40I talked...
0:49:40 > 0:49:42Good, how are you doing?
0:49:43 > 0:49:44Oh, OK.
0:49:44 > 0:49:46Um, I just wanted to check if there's anything new
0:49:46 > 0:49:48with the Tawon Boyd case.
0:49:49 > 0:49:53Alumni from The Sun include a famous married couple -
0:49:53 > 0:49:55the creator of The Wire, David Simon,
0:49:55 > 0:49:58and the novelist Laura Lippman.
0:49:58 > 0:50:02Her books have been known to cameo on her husband's show.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05Who caught the one from Edmonton last night, Anton Artis?
0:50:05 > 0:50:07Cole. With an assist from Donegan.
0:50:11 > 0:50:15Well before The Wire, it was Lippman who put Baltimore crime
0:50:15 > 0:50:17into popular award-winning novels.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21"Every day there was a little death, the kind of murder that rated
0:50:21 > 0:50:26"no more than four paragraphs deep inside the Beacon-Light.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29"Yet no-one seemed to notice or care except those playing
0:50:29 > 0:50:32"the homicide tally in the Pick 3.
0:50:32 > 0:50:34"The mayor still called it The City That Reads,
0:50:34 > 0:50:38"but others had long ago twisted that civic motto.
0:50:38 > 0:50:40" 'The city that bleeds, hon.
0:50:40 > 0:50:44" 'And the city that grieves. The city that seethes.' "
0:50:45 > 0:50:48What is it that draws you to this genre?
0:50:48 > 0:50:52What is it you think you're... you're trying to do in your book?
0:50:52 > 0:50:55What I really want to do with the crime novel
0:50:55 > 0:50:58is to do something that I felt I couldn't do as a reporter.
0:50:58 > 0:51:00Because the way people read a newspaper
0:51:00 > 0:51:04or watch a television programme is to find that moment
0:51:04 > 0:51:08where they can stop worrying it will happen to them. Which is...
0:51:08 > 0:51:11vital, I think, because if you do nothing but worry
0:51:11 > 0:51:12about what will happen to you,
0:51:12 > 0:51:15you end up in the foetal position on the floor of your kitchen
0:51:15 > 0:51:17and you don't want to leave the house.
0:51:17 > 0:51:18Because you can... It's like an abyss.
0:51:18 > 0:51:20It's like thinking about your own death.
0:51:20 > 0:51:22This could happen, this could happen.
0:51:22 > 0:51:28For the reader of a novel, that... that need to disengage drops.
0:51:28 > 0:51:30Instead, they need to engage.
0:51:30 > 0:51:34And maybe for the first time they can imagine, "You know what?
0:51:34 > 0:51:36"I might make that mistake
0:51:36 > 0:51:39"of being a teenage girl walking someplace I shouldn't walk
0:51:39 > 0:51:43"and being in a position where a stranger can abduct me.
0:51:43 > 0:51:50"I-I might be the person whose child has done something terrible,
0:51:50 > 0:51:56"and my instinct is to take care of my child, to cover for my child."
0:51:56 > 0:51:59I feel like in writing crime fiction...
0:52:00 > 0:52:03..there's an opportunity to create empathy
0:52:03 > 0:52:06that's sometimes missing when we actually consider real-life crimes.
0:52:06 > 0:52:08Does this mean that...
0:52:08 > 0:52:12that actually it's possible within the context of a popular form
0:52:12 > 0:52:16like crime fiction, to make people think more about the world,
0:52:16 > 0:52:19think harder about who we are and how we live our lives?
0:52:19 > 0:52:20I think so.
0:52:20 > 0:52:24There's something very much in the news in Baltimore now that I know
0:52:24 > 0:52:27will be finding its way into a future book.
0:52:27 > 0:52:30And that's this audit of the Baltimore City Police Department.
0:52:30 > 0:52:32Most people have been really focused
0:52:32 > 0:52:36on the death of the young African-American man in custody
0:52:36 > 0:52:42that yielded no convictions and led to riots last spring.
0:52:42 > 0:52:45But there's another piece of this which is...
0:52:45 > 0:52:48what a poor job they did on sexual assaults.
0:52:48 > 0:52:52And I was really caught by an e-mail exchange
0:52:52 > 0:52:55between a prosecutor and a detective,
0:52:55 > 0:52:59in which they kind of cavalierly joke about
0:52:59 > 0:53:02they don't have any sympathy for the victim.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05And...that's definitely something
0:53:05 > 0:53:08that's going to find its way into a future novel.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13- COMPUTERISED VOICE: - 'This is a Global Tel Link
0:53:13 > 0:53:14'pre-paid call from...'
0:53:14 > 0:53:17- MAN:- 'Adnan Syed.'
0:53:17 > 0:53:21'..an inmate at... the Maryland correctional facility.'
0:53:21 > 0:53:25From This American Life, NWBEC Chicago, it's Serial.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28One story told week by week. I'm Sarah Koenig.
0:53:28 > 0:53:32On the edge of the city is the now infamous Lincoln Park.
0:53:32 > 0:53:36It's where Baltimore's criminals dump the bodies.
0:53:36 > 0:53:41And it's a key location for the ground-breaking podcast, Serial.
0:53:41 > 0:53:44Almost 15 years ago, on January 13th, 1999,
0:53:44 > 0:53:47a girl named Hae Min Lee disappeared.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50About a month later, on February 9th,
0:53:50 > 0:53:53Hae's body was found in a big park in Baltimore,
0:53:53 > 0:53:54really a rambling forest.
0:53:54 > 0:53:57The cause of death was manual strangulation,
0:53:57 > 0:54:00meaning someone did it with their hands.
0:54:00 > 0:54:03Serial really was a podcast phenomenon.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06Reporter Sarah Koenig investigated
0:54:06 > 0:54:10the conviction of Hae Min Lee's boyfriend, Adnan Syed,
0:54:10 > 0:54:14on the way unearthing serious anomalies in the case.
0:54:14 > 0:54:17It has prompted a retrial for Syed.
0:54:17 > 0:54:20- SYED:- 'No-one could ever come with any type of proof or anecdote
0:54:20 > 0:54:24'or anything to ever say that I was ever mad at her,
0:54:24 > 0:54:28'that I was ever angry with her, that I ever threatened her.
0:54:28 > 0:54:30'You know, that's the only thing I could really hold on to.
0:54:30 > 0:54:32'At the end of the day, man,
0:54:32 > 0:54:35'the only thing I can say is I had no reason to kill her.'
0:54:35 > 0:54:38The startling informality of Koenig's approach
0:54:38 > 0:54:40captured the imagination.
0:54:40 > 0:54:45150 million people tuned in to hear the story unfold.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50About Hae I can only tell you what I've heard from non-family members -
0:54:50 > 0:54:53that she was cheerful and light and funny,
0:54:53 > 0:54:55that she loved the movie Titanic
0:54:55 > 0:54:59that she sometimes put nail polish on just so she could pick it off.
0:54:59 > 0:55:02That she was a good friend to her friends.
0:55:02 > 0:55:04She took in their problems and their pain
0:55:04 > 0:55:06and tried to help them if she could.
0:55:16 > 0:55:20Crime writers have taken a lot from real-life cases
0:55:20 > 0:55:23and the forensic scientists who investigate them.
0:55:23 > 0:55:27But now crime fiction is giving something back.
0:55:27 > 0:55:29A group of authors have got together
0:55:29 > 0:55:32to fund a brand-new, state-of-the-art mortuary
0:55:32 > 0:55:34for Professor Sue Black.
0:55:34 > 0:55:38This tank room doesn't exist anywhere else in the world,
0:55:38 > 0:55:40because we designed it.
0:55:40 > 0:55:43If you look at this one, cos this one I can lift...
0:55:43 > 0:55:45WHIRRING
0:55:47 > 0:55:50And you can see that inside...
0:55:50 > 0:55:52we have one body there floating.
0:55:52 > 0:55:55Now it's effectively pickling.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57That's exactly what it's like, it's the same process as pickling.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00And how long has this... body been here?
0:56:00 > 0:56:02That will be very recent,
0:56:02 > 0:56:04so probably just within the last few days.
0:56:04 > 0:56:09So there's another sort of six-month residency here?
0:56:09 > 0:56:10At least three, at least three.
0:56:10 > 0:56:13Depending how quickly we need to turn them over.
0:56:13 > 0:56:15You can close it if you want.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17There you go.
0:56:21 > 0:56:23As a thank you to the crime writers,
0:56:23 > 0:56:26Sue Black has named the body tanks after them...
0:56:30 > 0:56:34..with a special place reserved for her closest collaborator.
0:56:35 > 0:56:36APPLAUSE
0:56:36 > 0:56:40We've had the murder, now it's time for the love.
0:56:42 > 0:56:43Take it away!
0:56:43 > 0:56:45WHOOPING
0:56:47 > 0:56:49CHEERING
0:56:50 > 0:56:53# When I wake up Then I know I'm gonna be
0:56:53 > 0:56:56# I'm gonna be the one Who wakes up next to you
0:56:56 > 0:56:59# When I go out, Then I know I'm gonna be
0:56:59 > 0:57:03# I'm gonna be the one who goes along with you... #
0:57:03 > 0:57:07If you're referred to as a female crime writer, this gender thing,
0:57:07 > 0:57:11is that a negative or is it just something one has to put up with?
0:57:11 > 0:57:13Well, there's all sorts of ways I'm described.
0:57:13 > 0:57:16I'm described as a female writer, as a Scottish writer,
0:57:16 > 0:57:17as a lesbian writer.
0:57:17 > 0:57:22All these things are true, but they're only a part of my identity.
0:57:22 > 0:57:24And people like to put labels on things.
0:57:24 > 0:57:27Personally, I think labels are for jam, but there you go.
0:57:27 > 0:57:30I mean, I'm not even sure to what extent there's any value
0:57:30 > 0:57:32in calling someone a crime writer these days.
0:57:32 > 0:57:36Genre boundaries are blurring more and more with each passing year,
0:57:36 > 0:57:39so I guess I just kind of go, "You know what?
0:57:39 > 0:57:42"I'm doing the work I'm doing because it matters to me
0:57:42 > 0:57:44"and I really don't care what you think about it."
0:57:44 > 0:57:47# And I would walk five hundred miles
0:57:47 > 0:57:50# And I would walk five hundred more
0:57:50 > 0:57:54# Just to be the one who walked a thousand miles
0:57:54 > 0:57:56# To fall down at your door
0:57:56 > 0:57:58# Da lat da, da lat da Da lat da, da lat da
0:57:58 > 0:58:01# Da-da-da dun-diddle un-diddle un-diddle uh da-da
0:58:01 > 0:58:05# Da lat da, da lat da Da lat da, da lat da
0:58:05 > 0:58:08# Da-da-da dun-diddle un-diddle un-diddle uh da-da
0:58:08 > 0:58:11# And I would walk five hundred miles
0:58:11 > 0:58:14# And I would walk five hundred more
0:58:14 > 0:58:18# Just to be the one who walked a thousand miles
0:58:18 > 0:58:22# To fall down at your door. #
0:58:22 > 0:58:25WHOOPING AND CHEERING