0:00:02 > 0:00:07This programme contains some strong language
0:00:07 > 0:00:10In 2011, when the artist Maurizio Cattelan announced his retirement,
0:00:10 > 0:00:12not everyone believed him.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17As he returns with his biggest ever European show,
0:00:17 > 0:00:22here at the Monnaie de Paris, it turns out those sceptics were right.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28Maurizio Cattelan is one of the art scene's most slippery characters.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32Throughout an astonishingly successful career, he's stolen,
0:00:32 > 0:00:35shocked and tricked his way into becoming one
0:00:35 > 0:00:38of the most controversial and provocative artists around.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44In 1999, he scandalised the art world
0:00:44 > 0:00:48by striking down Pope John Paul II with a meteorite.
0:00:52 > 0:00:53While earlier this year,
0:00:53 > 0:00:58a collector paid over 17 million at auction...for this.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Cattelan's even been known to steal another artist's work
0:01:03 > 0:01:05and pass it off as his own.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09But who is the elusive Maurizio Cattelan?
0:01:09 > 0:01:14Is he a brilliant provocateur subverting the toxic art market
0:01:14 > 0:01:18at its own game or an opportunistic fraud?
0:01:18 > 0:01:23In tonight's Imagine, the film-maker Maura Axelrod tries to pin down
0:01:23 > 0:01:25the truth.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50Maurizio Cattelan is so tasteless.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Sold.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01Some people are suspicious that Maurizio is
0:02:01 > 0:02:02pulling the wool over their eyes,
0:02:02 > 0:02:06and he's some kind of flamboyant artistic conman.
0:02:11 > 0:02:17We will start with lot number one, Daddy Daddy by Maurizio Cattelan.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21We'll begin this at 1.8 million.
0:02:27 > 0:02:33His career is based on anecdotes and lies and imaginary stories.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40Well, there's something quite sort of complicated about it because
0:02:40 > 0:02:46Maurizio, as you know, is a very elusive character.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50Maurizio doesn't really let anybody in.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53He has many people around him, but
0:02:53 > 0:02:59um, very few people are actually close to Maurizio.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03Are we testing the volume or are we doing this?
0:03:03 > 0:03:05Oh, OK.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08I'm probably fatter than last time you interviewed me, no?
0:03:35 > 0:03:36COCK CROWS
0:03:36 > 0:03:42He grew up in a very poor family and he had practically no schooling.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12His mother was ill through much of his childhood.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16He feels like she blamed him for her illness.
0:04:16 > 0:04:21She died, I think, when he was in his early 20s.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24He was working to help support his family,
0:04:24 > 0:04:27but he had a hard time keeping a job.
0:04:27 > 0:04:32He was desperate, I think, to find another kind of life.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37I started going to Milan.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40I was getting more and more interested in art,
0:04:40 > 0:04:43but I didn't have a place to sleep or to live.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46It's not that poverty was new to me.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50I had a long series of shitty jobs
0:04:50 > 0:04:53and living a situation of mere survival,
0:04:53 > 0:04:57I could see how easily everything COULD have gone wrong
0:04:57 > 0:05:01and I could have been a kind of invisible member of society, no?
0:05:03 > 0:05:09So, the idea of art had a certain urgency for me and eventually,
0:05:09 > 0:05:11I realised I had nothing to lose.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17There was this magazine called Flash Art,
0:05:17 > 0:05:21which was and still is one of the most influential interesting
0:05:21 > 0:05:25contemporary art magazines for a young artist or for any artist.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30Appearing on the cover of Flash Art had an almost mythical status.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33Instead of waiting for Flash Art to notice me,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36I thought I would put my own work on the cover
0:05:36 > 0:05:40so I made a sculpture,
0:05:40 > 0:05:44which was a house of cards made with copies of Flash Art,
0:05:44 > 0:05:46then I took a photo of it
0:05:46 > 0:05:49and then I bought a whole bunch of real Flash Art magazines
0:05:49 > 0:05:54and I pasted the photograph of my own sculpture onto the cover,
0:05:54 > 0:05:57and I've been always very good at faking things
0:05:57 > 0:06:00and so this object turned out to look exactly like a real Flash Art.
0:06:00 > 0:06:05Then I went out and I distributed it in magazine stores
0:06:05 > 0:06:08and in galleries and if you went to a certain store
0:06:08 > 0:06:10and you bought a copy,
0:06:10 > 0:06:13you would get my knock-off copy instead of the real copy.
0:06:13 > 0:06:19It makes you wonder if being on the cover for real is real at all.
0:06:19 > 0:06:24It was like a study of the art world and how it worked and who was in
0:06:24 > 0:06:28charge of fame and success, if anyone.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32The next thing he did was a series of works that were about avoiding
0:06:32 > 0:06:34making anything.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39They were basically embracing failure before even beginning.
0:06:41 > 0:06:46In 1989, Maurizio was invited to his very first solo exhibition.
0:06:46 > 0:06:51This was a really longed-for opportunity, his big break.
0:06:51 > 0:06:55He was completely crippled by performance anxiety
0:06:55 > 0:07:00and felt unable to come up with something that would rise to the occasion.
0:07:00 > 0:07:05So, he locked the gallery door and put up a little Plexiglas sign that
0:07:05 > 0:07:06read in Italian,
0:07:06 > 0:07:09"Be right back," as if the gallery attendant had just popped out
0:07:09 > 0:07:12for a coffee or to do a little chore.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17The visitor was never allowed into the space
0:07:17 > 0:07:20and there was nothing to see if they HAD been let in.
0:07:20 > 0:07:25Maurizio's strategies of evasion have, at times,
0:07:25 > 0:07:28um, bordered on criminal activity.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30Rather than create a work,
0:07:30 > 0:07:35he decided to break in to a nearby gallery and steal the contents of
0:07:35 > 0:07:37another artist's exhibition
0:07:37 > 0:07:40and then take the loot back to show as his own work.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45The police had been called in.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49For a moment or so, there was the possibility that he'd be arrested
0:07:49 > 0:07:52and I think if he had, it would have pleased him no end.
0:07:52 > 0:07:57The loot had to be returned and I believe that the director
0:07:57 > 0:08:00of the museum had to actually intervene with the authorities
0:08:00 > 0:08:02to keep Maurizio out of jail.
0:08:02 > 0:08:03It's never about asking.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06It's about taking it, seizing it.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09- Stealing it.- Yes.
0:08:11 > 0:08:15He used this same tactic to fund his early career
0:08:15 > 0:08:17in a pretty innovative way.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20He did this work called the Oblomov Foundation.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23The Oblomov Foundation was basically a scholarship to disappear, no?
0:08:23 > 0:08:28It took its name from a Russian novel that describes a lazy man
0:08:28 > 0:08:31that basically doesn't get out of his couch, of his bed.
0:08:31 > 0:08:36He got 100 donors to each donate 100
0:08:36 > 0:08:38and he offered this as a scholarship
0:08:38 > 0:08:41for any young artist, but they had to agree
0:08:41 > 0:08:45not to make any work for a year, which, of course,
0:08:45 > 0:08:49would have put their career at something of a risk and, in fact,
0:08:49 > 0:08:52no-one took him up on this generous offer.
0:08:52 > 0:08:57And so I ended up keeping the money and using it to move to New York.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04It was pretty tough because I came with very limited resources
0:09:04 > 0:09:09and when I got a place, the regime was quite strict
0:09:09 > 0:09:10because I didn't have much money.
0:09:10 > 0:09:14At the beginning, I had, like, a budget of 5 a day.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18He was really at the beginning of his career.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21It wasn't a career. He had one show
0:09:21 > 0:09:25in which he had a donkey and a chandelier.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37He said he would like to, one day, show at Marian Goodman Gallery.
0:09:37 > 0:09:43When I heard Maurizio say that, I thought, "That IS ambitious.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46"How does he have the nerve?"
0:09:50 > 0:09:54Nobody knew at that time who he was or what he was doing.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58The donkey and the sausages and the chandelier?
0:09:58 > 0:10:01Nobody found it interesting,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04so nobody really paid attention to that.
0:10:06 > 0:10:11I think an important shift in Maurizio's career took place
0:10:11 > 0:10:14when he met Francesco Bonami.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16Maurizio and Bonami
0:10:16 > 0:10:18immediately became friends.
0:10:18 > 0:10:23They were together as immigrant Italians in the New York art world.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25We are living in the same street,
0:10:25 > 0:10:29so we kind of see each other very often.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33This figure that enters your life,
0:10:33 > 0:10:36then you find yourself doing things for him.
0:10:43 > 0:10:48Interestingly, Francesco Bonami put him in the Venice Biennale.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50It was the first time
0:10:50 > 0:10:53that he was invited to participate in the Biennale,
0:10:53 > 0:10:56which is, of course, one of the international art world's
0:10:56 > 0:10:58most important events,
0:10:58 > 0:11:01so it was a very momentous occasion.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05He was given a very prominent spot in the exhibition,
0:11:05 > 0:11:09but Maurizio couldn't think of a work that could possibly rise to the
0:11:09 > 0:11:12challenge of this wonderful opportunity,
0:11:12 > 0:11:16so he thought of another of his ingenious escape routes.
0:11:16 > 0:11:23Maurizio rented out his space in the Arsenale to a billboard company,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26who then put a perfume ad in place of the work.
0:11:29 > 0:11:34Some...I think slightly gullible collector bought it
0:11:34 > 0:11:38for some probably not irrelevant amount of money.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41What Maurizio was doing, what he continually did, was usurp
0:11:41 > 0:11:44and turn on its head the whole relationship
0:11:44 > 0:11:47between an organisation and the artists.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50He was very interested in how he, as an agent,
0:11:50 > 0:11:53could change the structure of the art world.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55Massimo De Carlo, take three.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00If you could just tell me your name and what it is that you do.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03I think this is a stupid question.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06Massimo De Carlo has been a friend and an enemy
0:12:06 > 0:12:11or anyway has been a dealer, has been my gallerist for many years.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15Maurizio say, "I would love to do a show like this,"
0:12:15 > 0:12:18and I say, "Yes, OK, let's do it."
0:12:18 > 0:12:21Perfect Day is a piece in which Massimo De Carlo
0:12:21 > 0:12:26got duct-taped to the wall, like a strange, profane crucifixion.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29I was supposed to be on the wall for two hours,
0:12:29 > 0:12:32and it was very hot with lights,
0:12:32 > 0:12:34so it was a little bit difficult.
0:12:34 > 0:12:39I was very, very close to...
0:12:39 > 0:12:41to, to collapse.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44Unfortunately, Massimo fainted so we had to call the ambulance.
0:12:48 > 0:12:54For another show, he had his Paris gallerist dress up in a costume
0:12:54 > 0:12:58that was a pink rabbit shaped like a penis.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02Perrotin, I guess, was a famous womaniser,
0:13:02 > 0:13:05and so this was a commentary on his proclivities.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22But sometimes... a little bit painful.
0:13:23 > 0:13:28I think Maurizio, what he did was kind of flipped it on its head,
0:13:28 > 0:13:29and you found yourself as the curator -
0:13:29 > 0:13:31not the commissioning agent,
0:13:31 > 0:13:33but the person who's actually been commissioned.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35Maurizio is actually commissioning you.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38He came up with some sort of weird formula
0:13:38 > 0:13:41where people are complicit in their own abuse.
0:13:42 > 0:13:47The more he abuses people, the more popular he becomes.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54Contemporary art is about belief,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57and successful living artists understand
0:13:57 > 0:14:00that they have to corral belief in themselves.
0:14:01 > 0:14:05It is really intriguing to think
0:14:05 > 0:14:08of the way that Maurizio builds up relationships.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12He has a very clear idea when he's talking to someone what
0:14:12 > 0:14:15they're capable of doing for him,
0:14:15 > 0:14:19what they're capable of realising FOR him and his work.
0:14:25 > 0:14:27Are you in the picture too?
0:14:27 > 0:14:29Is this voice coming at me?
0:14:29 > 0:14:31Why not be in the picture?
0:14:31 > 0:14:34Oh, no, I would NEVER go on camera.
0:14:35 > 0:14:40I first met him when he came up for a meeting, I guess you'd say.
0:14:42 > 0:14:49I think he was very shy and modest, or...so it seemed to me.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53He did really have, among artists,
0:14:53 > 0:14:56the most clear idea of what he wanted.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02I invited him to do a piece in the summer show
0:15:02 > 0:15:04and it was actually fantastic.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07He had these two little taxidermied mice
0:15:07 > 0:15:11sitting in sun chairs, basking in the sun,
0:15:11 > 0:15:13and the next thing I knew,
0:15:13 > 0:15:17there were a lot of people coming to the gallery to see this.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20When I saw that he was showing with Marian Goodman,
0:15:20 > 0:15:23then I began looking him up and,
0:15:23 > 0:15:25um, checking him out.
0:15:25 > 0:15:31I remember calling over to Marian's gallery and saying,
0:15:31 > 0:15:34"Do you know how I could talk with Maurizio Cattelan?"
0:15:34 > 0:15:37And somebody there said, "Oh, he's right here!"
0:15:37 > 0:15:41And we set up a time to meet and I wasn't sure that it was Maurizio
0:15:41 > 0:15:43when I met him, but it was.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Cos you had heard the stories that
0:15:45 > 0:15:48he had other people who impersonated him.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50He was charming.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52He's like a magnet.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54He pulls you in.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56And I know that makes it sound strange
0:15:56 > 0:15:59because if you're a journalist,
0:15:59 > 0:16:01you have to have some distance,
0:16:01 > 0:16:04but there is something about Maurizio
0:16:04 > 0:16:06that just gets under your skin.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09When his show was going to happen at Marian's,
0:16:09 > 0:16:12that was a moment to do something with Vogue.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36Maurizio is a perfect connoisseur
0:16:36 > 0:16:41of many different aspects of the art world.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46And as a good artist
0:16:46 > 0:16:49should do now, in this time,
0:16:49 > 0:16:51is able to manipulate them
0:16:51 > 0:16:56in order to have a better access and a better visibility.
0:16:57 > 0:17:01He had a highly developed understanding of this kind of
0:17:01 > 0:17:03bizarre art world landscape.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07You don't know it, but in this moment,
0:17:07 > 0:17:11he's manipulating you because he's much more clever
0:17:11 > 0:17:13than you and than me.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16And he knows the system very well.
0:17:17 > 0:17:24I mean, Maurizio is an artist that has not dedicated his life to art.
0:17:24 > 0:17:28He's dedicated his life to success in art, which is different.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37In 1999,
0:17:37 > 0:17:42Maurizio made the work for which he is probably the most well-known.
0:17:42 > 0:17:47I was invited to do a show that consisted of a sculpture
0:17:47 > 0:17:53of John Paul II in this room, and just the Pope standing.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57But then, as I was working on the piece,
0:17:57 > 0:17:58literally as I was installing it,
0:17:58 > 0:18:03the piece didn't have the presence that I thought he would have had,
0:18:03 > 0:18:07and so that's when the idea came of changing the piece.
0:18:11 > 0:18:13And so this image went from what was
0:18:13 > 0:18:16supposed to be a sort of image of authority,
0:18:16 > 0:18:20became this much more aggressive image
0:18:20 > 0:18:23of the Pope being hit by a meteorite.
0:18:27 > 0:18:31His profile increased hugely
0:18:31 > 0:18:35when Christie's put the Pope on the auction block
0:18:35 > 0:18:39and it sold for 900,000.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43That changed his relationship to the market, there's no doubt.
0:18:46 > 0:18:51The Pope piece slowly picked up speed and it started circulating
0:18:51 > 0:18:53more and more in the media...
0:18:53 > 0:18:55THEY ALL SPEAK THEIR OWN LANGUAGE
0:18:55 > 0:18:58And it started having a very volatile life.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04It was an image that everybody was uncomfortable with,
0:19:04 > 0:19:08but that nobody could get enough reproducing.
0:19:09 > 0:19:14It was shown in Poland at a moment in which there was a return
0:19:14 > 0:19:17to very conservative, right-wing politics.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21Two members of parliament were so offended
0:19:21 > 0:19:23that they went to the exhibit,
0:19:23 > 0:19:25broke through security
0:19:25 > 0:19:28and they rolled the meteorite off of the Pope
0:19:28 > 0:19:32and they tried to stand him up on his feet.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35I thought that was quite important
0:19:35 > 0:19:40in terms of the weight of a physical object, that's it's so unbearable...
0:19:40 > 0:19:45somebody has the responsibility of changing it, no?
0:19:46 > 0:19:51Ultimately, this sculpture was so popular, everyone wanted to show it.
0:19:56 > 0:19:57In 2001,
0:19:57 > 0:20:04Maurizio was invented to again participate in the Venice Biennale.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06They asked me to show The Pope again.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09It was becoming one of these situations
0:20:09 > 0:20:10in which you only become known for a piece
0:20:10 > 0:20:12and I was quite uncomfortable to be...
0:20:12 > 0:20:14You know, it felt like the meteorite
0:20:14 > 0:20:17had fell on me more than on the Pope!
0:20:18 > 0:20:23I had this idea around the same time as this invitation and I thought
0:20:23 > 0:20:28nobody had ever been in the Biennale by being elsewhere.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36People were already projecting an idea of glamour and sort of
0:20:36 > 0:20:42international jetset onto Venice and so I thought,
0:20:42 > 0:20:48"Well, why don't we go to a place that is, like, the anti-Venice?"
0:20:57 > 0:21:01I think many people didn't even think it was an artwork
0:21:01 > 0:21:04and just thought it was some eccentric wealthy guy
0:21:04 > 0:21:07up in the hills building his own dream!
0:21:11 > 0:21:15He recreated a version of the Hollywood sign
0:21:15 > 0:21:21and installed it on...actually a centuries-old dump above Palermo.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33This Hollywood sign, which was a perfect replica, 1:1,
0:21:33 > 0:21:38was installed onto a hill that was actually created by garbage.
0:21:52 > 0:21:58He convinced a collector to charter a plane to bring a pile of patrons,
0:21:58 > 0:22:04curators, collectors down to Palermo to have a champagne reception
0:22:04 > 0:22:08just under the Hollywood sign in this dump.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11At that time, it felt more of a provocation in a way,
0:22:11 > 0:22:15and the fact that all these beautiful people
0:22:15 > 0:22:19would be taken to a garbage dump and see this Hollywood sign,
0:22:19 > 0:22:23it felt more meaningful than people probably expected.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27At one point in the '90s,
0:22:27 > 0:22:29there were so many biennials everywhere
0:22:29 > 0:22:32and so I just felt that I and also many of my friends
0:22:32 > 0:22:35were sort of employed in this system,
0:22:35 > 0:22:40just went from biennial to another or just making work for biennials,
0:22:40 > 0:22:44and so I thought, "What if I make my own biennial?"
0:22:44 > 0:22:49I convinced a collector who had a hotel in the Caribbean
0:22:49 > 0:22:56to give us the rooms. I asked for ads from magazines for free.
0:22:56 > 0:23:00We had to fundraise for all the tickets
0:23:00 > 0:23:03and I invited 15-20 artists, maybe.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07Journalists came, but in my biennial, there was no art.
0:23:11 > 0:23:16Basically, he organised a fake biennial.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19There was no work on display.
0:23:19 > 0:23:24One of the critics who went there from Frieze Magazine was absolutely
0:23:24 > 0:23:28appalled that there was nothing to see except the artists themselves,
0:23:28 > 0:23:32who were basically just on holiday, swimming and drinking.
0:23:33 > 0:23:38It was just an exhibition of everything that surrounds art.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43I LOVE the Caribbean Biennial.
0:23:43 > 0:23:48I find that kind of work not only amusing, but somehow to kind of,
0:23:48 > 0:23:52like, puncture some of the pretensions of the art world.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58It was also quite awkward because then,
0:23:58 > 0:24:00when you bring all these artists together,
0:24:00 > 0:24:04it became a sort of social experiment and,
0:24:04 > 0:24:09yeah, now it feels... I don't know how I feel about it.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11You know, he's a little bit tortured
0:24:11 > 0:24:15in the way that many creative people are -
0:24:15 > 0:24:19self-questioning, wondering about their value,
0:24:19 > 0:24:24wondering if what they're doing is meaningful or ridiculous
0:24:24 > 0:24:28or excellent or asinine.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33I know artists are all on a different level.
0:24:33 > 0:24:37They have a percentage of being a piece of shit.
0:24:38 > 0:24:43For Maurizio, I think his art has been his mission,
0:24:43 > 0:24:46the sacred part of his life.
0:24:46 > 0:24:52If a relationship threatened the sacred space...
0:24:53 > 0:24:58..you know the relationship would stop, not his art.
0:25:00 > 0:25:05Many, many people have always asked me through the years to actually,
0:25:05 > 0:25:08erm, talk about Maurizio and I've never really wanted to.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11I think that...
0:25:13 > 0:25:15..he will end up alone.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19That's what he thinks, too.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23HUBBUB
0:25:26 > 0:25:28THEY SPEAK ITALIAN
0:25:31 > 0:25:36The actual funny thing was he didn't really know what I did cos he lives
0:25:36 > 0:25:39mostly in the States, and so he didn't really have a clue
0:25:39 > 0:25:42of what my job exactly was.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51At the time we actually met each other,
0:25:51 > 0:25:55my speciality was bustin' press conferences
0:25:55 > 0:25:58and asking George Clooney to marry me or...
0:26:03 > 0:26:07Asking Antonio Banderas if he could autograph my knickers.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12And so he used to actually insist to follow me
0:26:12 > 0:26:16while I was actually filming these things.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18SHE SPEAKS IN OWN LANGUAGE
0:26:19 > 0:26:23My writers who write the show with me,
0:26:23 > 0:26:25they all know Maurizio really well
0:26:25 > 0:26:28and they've always called him the ghost-writer of my shows.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31He saw things that I didn't know I had.
0:26:31 > 0:26:35He saw probably potential and he pushed me to the limit
0:26:35 > 0:26:38in that sense and, erm, I think, yeah,
0:26:38 > 0:26:42that's probably what he gave to me,
0:26:42 > 0:26:48what he...you know. He always thinks that everything is possible and
0:26:48 > 0:26:51I do too now.
0:27:00 > 0:27:04I mean, the younger woman always ends up with the older man.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08In a way, it's...
0:27:08 > 0:27:10kind of fucked-up, but...
0:27:11 > 0:27:14Older men, they get a good deal out of it.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24I met him at a party.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28I remember showing up and I just noticed this guy
0:27:28 > 0:27:30in really tight pants,
0:27:30 > 0:27:34that was the first thing I noticed and he was drinking tea.
0:27:34 > 0:27:35I didn't know who he was,
0:27:35 > 0:27:38I just saw him kind of off in the corner, watching.
0:27:38 > 0:27:42The first date that we had, he gave me a black eye!
0:27:44 > 0:27:47By accident, but...
0:27:47 > 0:27:49It was just an accident,
0:27:49 > 0:27:52but I had to show up for work the next day and everyone was like,
0:27:52 > 0:27:56"What are you doing? Don't go out with this guy again!
0:27:56 > 0:27:57"He's nuts!"
0:27:57 > 0:28:01He's never wanted to get married and he's never wanted to have kids
0:28:01 > 0:28:03so we're pretty much in agreement with that.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06As long as it's nice, then it's nice.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09I ended the relationship
0:28:09 > 0:28:13and I ended it every single time we actually ended it.
0:28:13 > 0:28:20We had this very strong connection, and we still do, no matter what.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23We love each other dearly, I don't know if this is...
0:28:23 > 0:28:25He snores.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27DOG SNORES
0:28:27 > 0:28:32He's the only dog that Maurizio hasn't stuffed yet, so...
0:28:36 > 0:28:41There was a piece of a taxidermied dog.
0:28:41 > 0:28:45Another funny type of piece, but dealing with life and death.
0:28:45 > 0:28:46With that piece,
0:28:46 > 0:28:49we had several people come in and look at it and go,
0:28:49 > 0:28:52"You have such a cute dog and it just sits in the same place
0:28:52 > 0:28:53"all the time." Funnily enough,
0:28:53 > 0:28:57our dogs don't fall for it, but plenty of people fall for it.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01One piece I've always loved is the early piece of the squirrel
0:29:01 > 0:29:03who has committed suicide.
0:29:03 > 0:29:08He is sitting at a kitchen table and his head is slumped on the table and
0:29:08 > 0:29:10there's a revolver on the floor.
0:29:12 > 0:29:16And there again, it's one of these pieces, you laugh when you see it.
0:29:16 > 0:29:20It's very funny, but it goes way beyond being a joke.
0:30:29 > 0:30:33I think the power of Maurizio's work derives from the fact that it is
0:30:33 > 0:30:38sometimes deeply serious and deeply sorrowful work.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44When you first see one of his sculptures,
0:30:44 > 0:30:49there's an instant gratification where you understand the twist.
0:30:55 > 0:30:59But then when you spend more time with the works,
0:30:59 > 0:31:03you really see these profound themes emerge.
0:31:08 > 0:31:14The works deal in a poetic and thoughtful way with failure...
0:31:19 > 0:31:23..with feeling alienated from the world around you.
0:31:25 > 0:31:31There's a really searing critique of power and its misuses in the work
0:31:31 > 0:31:33and, ultimately,
0:31:33 > 0:31:36many of the most powerful works
0:31:36 > 0:31:40are about death and mortality.
0:31:41 > 0:31:43A lot of people find it funny.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46I find it...
0:31:46 > 0:31:51sometimes very tragic and, erm,
0:31:51 > 0:31:54I do believe that there is a lot
0:31:54 > 0:31:56of pain in there.
0:32:23 > 0:32:27He has a lot of anxiety, I think, and feeling like
0:32:27 > 0:32:29someone is around smothering him
0:32:29 > 0:32:33or he has this responsibility to someone.
0:32:33 > 0:32:34He would just leave.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37I mean, he can't deal with it at all.
0:32:52 > 0:32:56A lot of what he does is about that sense of hiding,
0:32:56 > 0:33:00of retreating or becoming invisible behind the work.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05- INTERVIEWER:- How did you become so interested in Maurizio?
0:33:05 > 0:33:11My mother knew Maurizio in the early days - in Milan, in New York,
0:33:11 > 0:33:14in the late '80s, I think.
0:33:14 > 0:33:16She was kind of in the scene.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18So, they were friends?
0:33:18 > 0:33:22Yeah, they dated. Well, sort of.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25I mean, it wasn't serious.
0:33:27 > 0:33:31So, do you spend a lot of time with him?
0:33:31 > 0:33:37No, but I kind of feel like I know him from his work.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41Maybe that's a better way to know him.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43I mean, with an artist,
0:33:43 > 0:33:46doesn't their work speak for them?
0:33:48 > 0:33:53Maurizio so often uses his very distinctive likeness in his work,
0:33:53 > 0:33:56but sometimes the self-portraits
0:33:56 > 0:34:00are not direct mimicry of his actual face,
0:34:00 > 0:34:05they're these characters which function as personae.
0:34:07 > 0:34:12A lot of my work had to do with the problem of identity.
0:34:12 > 0:34:20Maurizio generates all these other identities, like Daddy Daddy.
0:34:27 > 0:34:32Daddy Daddy was a sculpture which depicted the figure of Pinocchio
0:34:32 > 0:34:36lying face down in a pool, as if the little boy had drowned.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39It could have been a suicide, it could have been a murder,
0:34:39 > 0:34:41it might have been a terrible accident.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44It was certainly a very sorry scene.
0:34:46 > 0:34:50The title is drawn from the Gospels - "Father, Father,
0:34:50 > 0:34:53"why hast thou forsaken me?"
0:34:53 > 0:34:56It's the ninth hour, which is also the title of the sculpture
0:34:56 > 0:35:00of the Pope, which is the time when Christ is on the cross
0:35:00 > 0:35:03and cries out to his father.
0:35:03 > 0:35:07Maurizio's works are kind of little poems
0:35:07 > 0:35:09with an actual figure in them
0:35:09 > 0:35:11so they're quite risky.
0:35:13 > 0:35:14It's almost a miracle,
0:35:14 > 0:35:18this idea that you would be able to nail a woman to the wall.
0:35:18 > 0:35:22I mean, that's inappropriate, or have the Pope hit by a meteor,
0:35:22 > 0:35:25or float a dead Pinocchio in the Guggenheim.
0:35:25 > 0:35:27I mean, how many people want a dead Pinocchio
0:35:27 > 0:35:29floating in a pool of water? I mean, come on!
0:35:31 > 0:35:34The fact that people do is remarkable.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38GAVEL BANGS
0:35:38 > 0:35:41Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
0:35:41 > 0:35:43Before I open the floor to bidding,
0:35:43 > 0:35:45I would like to warmly welcome you
0:35:45 > 0:35:48to this evening's sale of contemporary art.
0:35:48 > 0:35:52Lot number five, Daddy Daddy by Maurizio Cattelan.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56We will start this at 700,000.
0:35:56 > 0:35:58At 850.
0:35:58 > 0:36:00900,000.
0:36:00 > 0:36:03It's in the room at 9...
0:36:03 > 0:36:061 million. 1.1 million.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09In the far left corner, 1.2 million.
0:36:09 > 0:36:12Still against you, Svetlana.
0:36:12 > 0:36:141.8 million.
0:36:14 > 0:36:16At 2.2 million,
0:36:16 > 0:36:18the bid is on my right.
0:36:19 > 0:36:21Last chance, then.
0:36:23 > 0:36:24Sold.
0:36:30 > 0:36:33Art really became perceived as an asset class
0:36:33 > 0:36:35during the last recession.
0:36:35 > 0:36:40After Lehman Brothers collapsed in September 2008,
0:36:40 > 0:36:44most of the world went into a deep economic ravine
0:36:44 > 0:36:49and one of the first things to pop out of that ravine
0:36:49 > 0:36:50was the art market.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54Lot number 31 - Maurizio Cattelan...
0:36:54 > 0:37:00Because his market is global enough and is in some highly visible hands,
0:37:00 > 0:37:02including museum collections,
0:37:02 > 0:37:07Cattelan work is perceived as a financial asset.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09At 2 million. Any more than 2 million?
0:37:09 > 0:37:11Look, it's like any asset.
0:37:11 > 0:37:15Art as an investable commodity, not as a piece of art,
0:37:15 > 0:37:17but purely on a sort of mathematical standpoint,
0:37:17 > 0:37:21has been one of the best asset classes
0:37:21 > 0:37:24for, I'm willing to bet, for the last 15 years.
0:37:24 > 0:37:29It's a multi-billion-dollar annual revenue business.
0:37:29 > 0:37:31An artist may be a real genius today,
0:37:31 > 0:37:36but if he is spoiled or contaminated by the sea of money around him,
0:37:36 > 0:37:40his genius will completely melt and become zero.
0:37:40 > 0:37:42If he's going around too much,
0:37:42 > 0:37:45then it became a commodity and we are not here to sell commodities.
0:37:45 > 0:37:48There is something wrong about the system.
0:37:48 > 0:37:53I shall sell it, then, for 40 million.
0:37:54 > 0:37:55Thank you, Lisa!
0:38:00 > 0:38:01He just wanted you to treat it
0:38:01 > 0:38:04as something you don't really give a shit about,
0:38:04 > 0:38:06but that you're interested in.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09As an investment, there's more and more ways
0:38:09 > 0:38:10that you can go about doing that.
0:38:17 > 0:38:19So, this is Jamie and that's Frank.
0:38:22 > 0:38:26It's funny cos they have their guns, they have their radios,
0:38:26 > 0:38:29they have their tear gas, their bullet holes.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32And their bullet cartridge.
0:38:33 > 0:38:38There's definitely a segment of his market which is populated
0:38:38 > 0:38:40by wheeler-dealers -
0:38:40 > 0:38:44collector/dealers who have huge inventories
0:38:44 > 0:38:45in a particular artist's work.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50We're collectors, but, at the same time,
0:38:50 > 0:38:54we're art dealers, so pretty much what I do is I like buying art
0:38:54 > 0:38:58and artists that I love, respect, want to live with.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01With art, people go, "But what does it mean?"
0:39:01 > 0:39:03I'm like, "It doesn't mean anything.
0:39:03 > 0:39:06"What does it mean to you? That's what it means, period."
0:39:06 > 0:39:11Lot number 15 - Frank And Jamie by Maurizio Cattelan.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15I can sell it for 2 million, then.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17All done?
0:39:17 > 0:39:19Sold. Thank you so much.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25Maybe, in the end, making money is art
0:39:25 > 0:39:29and working is art and good business is the BEST art.
0:39:34 > 0:39:39Maurizio was criticised for creating sort of jokes which are like riddles
0:39:39 > 0:39:42for the cognoscenti
0:39:42 > 0:39:45and then it's kind of like, if you get the joke,
0:39:45 > 0:39:49you're on the inside, and if you don't get the joke,
0:39:49 > 0:39:51then you're on the outside.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54So, it's sort of using the vanity of collectors
0:39:54 > 0:39:57and their desire to be in on the joke against them,
0:39:57 > 0:40:01in the sense of pulling money out of their pockets to pay for things that
0:40:01 > 0:40:03are basically junk.
0:40:04 > 0:40:10I think Cattelan works appeal to collectors
0:40:10 > 0:40:16who want to be perceived as adventurous and knowing.
0:40:16 > 0:40:20- INTERVIEWER:- So, you own Daddy Daddy.- Yeah.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22How do you know what I own?
0:40:24 > 0:40:28For instance, Daddy Daddy - it's a tough work.
0:40:28 > 0:40:32You need to have a pond or a fountain in your home.
0:40:32 > 0:40:37I bought the Daddy Daddy because it was on the cover of the arts section
0:40:37 > 0:40:41of the New York Times when it was in the Guggenheim show.
0:40:41 > 0:40:43It's difficult to install,
0:40:43 > 0:40:47the subject matter can be exceedingly difficult.
0:40:47 > 0:40:51There's all kinds of reasons why someone's not going to buy a piece
0:40:51 > 0:40:55of a hanging boy or, you know, a sculpture of Adolf Hitler.
0:41:02 > 0:41:07It's usually installed facing a wall so you have to get up very close to
0:41:07 > 0:41:12see the face, and when people see who it is,
0:41:12 > 0:41:14they jump out of their skin.
0:41:15 > 0:41:20People are still afraid of his appearance.
0:41:20 > 0:41:22Is he begging forgiveness?
0:41:22 > 0:41:25Is he saying, "What have I done?"
0:41:44 > 0:41:48It's just merely a way of getting a headline and drawing attention
0:41:48 > 0:41:51to his work and unfortunately, in this case,
0:41:51 > 0:41:54we have no choice but to denounce it and to protest.
0:41:56 > 0:41:59The first time we brought it into our home, my daughter,
0:41:59 > 0:42:01who, at that point in time, was probably
0:42:01 > 0:42:07about seven or eight years old and did not know who Hitler was,
0:42:07 > 0:42:10just completely freaked out by the creepiness of it.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16Frankly, even if you DO understand it, you know, like,
0:42:16 > 0:42:20"Why are you living with a sculpture of Hitler in your home?"
0:42:20 > 0:42:22A lot of his work is profound and interesting,
0:42:22 > 0:42:25but it can be very demanding to live with.
0:42:25 > 0:42:31One thing that is very intriguing is that the Hitler sculpture traded
0:42:31 > 0:42:34behind the scenes for 10 million a few years ago.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38I'm always intrigued when the market rewards difficulty.
0:42:40 > 0:42:44You need to go pretty far, otherwise the piece doesn't exist.
0:42:44 > 0:42:49You have to convince the museum director and the curator
0:42:49 > 0:42:52that a hole in the floor is necessary for the piece.
0:42:52 > 0:42:54You need to push
0:42:54 > 0:43:00your friends and enemies and collaborators further and
0:43:00 > 0:43:03you have to be uncomfortable about it.
0:43:03 > 0:43:07The further you go, the more satisfaction is created
0:43:07 > 0:43:11by the level of discomfort in which all the participants were put.
0:43:16 > 0:43:18We are used to thinking of monuments
0:43:18 > 0:43:21as places where victories are celebrated,
0:43:21 > 0:43:25but what if, instead of celebrating a victory,
0:43:25 > 0:43:27a public sculpture or a monument was
0:43:27 > 0:43:30to capture a loss?
0:43:37 > 0:43:41L.O.V.E. is a public sculpture
0:43:41 > 0:43:43placed in front of the Stock Exchange in Milan.
0:43:45 > 0:43:49He has a great understanding of what it is
0:43:49 > 0:43:53that will make the media or the wider public
0:43:53 > 0:43:55really come to his work.
0:43:55 > 0:44:02Obviously, it's a piece about hating wealth or about losing money, but,
0:44:02 > 0:44:07to me, it's mostly about a sense of grandiosity that has been dissipated
0:44:07 > 0:44:10or an epoch that has come to an end.
0:44:21 > 0:44:26He must be a bit of a masochist cos he's constantly asking for abuse.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29It was very controversial when it went up,
0:44:29 > 0:44:33but I think that somehow it was welcomed with sympathy
0:44:33 > 0:44:36by the people.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39I'm expecting people to react strongly,
0:44:39 > 0:44:41in a good way or a bad way.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44I don't think he'd do it if he didn't think he was going
0:44:44 > 0:44:47to get scolded. That's the joy that he gets.
0:45:07 > 0:45:11I think there is too much work that is just about being
0:45:11 > 0:45:15a picture on the wall that we are contented looking at.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19I think art needs to be somehow disruptive
0:45:19 > 0:45:23to then reconfigure opinions and limits.
0:46:11 > 0:46:16Three hanging kids on a tree branch in Milan
0:46:16 > 0:46:20is an intensely discomforting, but yet powerful image.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24I think it's amongst his most important pieces of work.
0:46:27 > 0:46:29When I was making those works,
0:46:29 > 0:46:33I was interested in understanding - what can we bear looking at?
0:46:34 > 0:46:39And also, what is a physical object that is so uncomfortable that it
0:46:39 > 0:46:42requires somebody to do something to it.
0:46:44 > 0:46:47So, one local guy just decided to do something.
0:46:47 > 0:46:51He got a ladder, climbed the tree,
0:46:51 > 0:46:55he cut down one of the children, then the other one,
0:46:55 > 0:46:57but he lost his balance and he fell.
0:46:58 > 0:47:00He was injured,
0:47:00 > 0:47:04people called an ambulance and he was taken away and, later,
0:47:04 > 0:47:06he was arrested for defacing public property.
0:47:06 > 0:47:08SIREN WAILS
0:47:11 > 0:47:14Some of my pieces have been damaged, like the hanging children.
0:47:14 > 0:47:16I think there is often, on one hand,
0:47:16 > 0:47:19this sort of media frenzy that excites people.
0:47:30 > 0:47:35And then there is also somebody who feels that the physical object
0:47:35 > 0:47:36needs to be corrected.
0:47:43 > 0:47:48There's an uncanny beauty to Maurizio's work -
0:47:48 > 0:47:51the way in which the work is kind of
0:47:51 > 0:47:54believable in the world for a moment.
0:47:55 > 0:47:58You know, is that really a boy hanging?
0:47:58 > 0:47:59We know it's not a boy hanging.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02We know that the Pope isn't hit by a meteorite.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04We know this horse is not alive,
0:48:04 > 0:48:07it's maybe taxidermied, maybe even false,
0:48:07 > 0:48:09but just for that moment,
0:48:09 > 0:48:12you kind of believe there's a horse there that's hanging there.
0:48:12 > 0:48:15Suddenly, this anxiousness is
0:48:15 > 0:48:20infused in the work and becomes kind of a potent...
0:48:20 > 0:48:23existential question.
0:48:25 > 0:48:30We know that Massimiliano is not Maurizio Cattelan,
0:48:30 > 0:48:33but Massimiliano Gioni as Maurizio Cattelan...
0:48:33 > 0:48:37actually, there's this moment of suspension of belief.
0:48:44 > 0:48:49Massimiliano Gioni has performed the role of Cattelan,
0:48:49 > 0:48:51done interviews for him
0:48:51 > 0:48:56and performed as him for an extended period of time.
0:49:01 > 0:49:05Always send somebody else to speak in your place.
0:49:05 > 0:49:06HE LAUGHS
0:49:11 > 0:49:14We met in '97 or '98.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16He had already decided in a way
0:49:16 > 0:49:19that he didn't want to talk about his work.
0:49:19 > 0:49:24Massimiliano was very energetic and informed and we hit it off and
0:49:24 > 0:49:27then it happened that one of the days in which we met,
0:49:27 > 0:49:30I had to do an interview with the radio
0:49:30 > 0:49:34and I say to him, "Why don't you do it?"
0:49:34 > 0:49:36And I say, "Sure."
0:49:36 > 0:49:40And so I gave the journalists Massimiliano's phone number and
0:49:40 > 0:49:43they called him and he did it live.
0:49:43 > 0:49:46I don't even know if he heard the interview or not,
0:49:46 > 0:49:49but he called me up the next day and said, "Oh, it was great."
0:49:49 > 0:49:52Every time that I was asked to do an interview or presentation,
0:49:52 > 0:49:56I would ask Massimiliano to speak in my place.
0:49:56 > 0:49:58Good evening, everybody.
0:49:58 > 0:49:59Besides the interviews,
0:49:59 > 0:50:03I was also doing all the lectures for Maurizio in public or going to
0:50:03 > 0:50:05universities to teach instead of being...
0:50:07 > 0:50:11I don't know, it's probably close to hundreds of interviews and
0:50:11 > 0:50:13presentations and press releases.
0:50:19 > 0:50:24Massimiliano's impersonation of Maurizio is not unprecedented.
0:50:24 > 0:50:25Quite famously,
0:50:25 > 0:50:31Warhol enlisted one of his acolytes to perform the role of Warhol
0:50:31 > 0:50:36in a lecture tour of the US. So it has been done before.
0:50:41 > 0:50:45What's different here is Massimiliano
0:50:45 > 0:50:47really was involved in the creation
0:50:47 > 0:50:50of a certain kind of verbal persona.
0:50:52 > 0:50:56I'm going to try to go through, actually, 273 slides.
0:50:56 > 0:50:58If you fall asleep, please do.
0:50:58 > 0:51:04'I think part of the reason why Maurizio liked this situation'
0:51:04 > 0:51:06was also that he doesn't like to talk
0:51:06 > 0:51:08and so it was a way of solving a problem and
0:51:08 > 0:51:13saying yes to interviews that otherwise he wouldn't do himself.
0:51:13 > 0:51:17When people realised that Massimiliano was not Maurizio,
0:51:17 > 0:51:20sometimes people were very upset
0:51:20 > 0:51:24and felt like they had been duped or taken in.
0:51:34 > 0:51:38Other people in the audience thought it was very funny
0:51:38 > 0:51:40and really enjoyed the ruse.
0:51:42 > 0:51:46I think it depends on your relationship to authenticity and
0:51:46 > 0:51:50what you expect in terms of the authenticity of the artist.
0:51:55 > 0:51:58I think it was a clever thing to do,
0:51:58 > 0:52:03to enlist the support of someone who could bring their articulacy
0:52:03 > 0:52:05to Maurizio's work.
0:52:06 > 0:52:09There was another way to cultivate
0:52:09 > 0:52:12that sort of misinformation that made
0:52:12 > 0:52:14the work richer or any way...
0:52:14 > 0:52:16more complex.
0:53:08 > 0:53:12When we are in this process of doing interviews,
0:53:12 > 0:53:16I had a sense of his madness because it would never end, you know.
0:53:20 > 0:53:24On many levels, he has a sort of addictive personality.
0:53:24 > 0:53:28It's a sort of appetite that can't get satisfied.
0:53:30 > 0:53:32And I think for a while, actually,
0:53:32 > 0:53:36recognition was perceived by him
0:53:36 > 0:53:39as a restriction of possibilities.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42It sort of shrinks your options.
0:53:44 > 0:53:48Probably what he wants is to keep looking
0:53:48 > 0:53:51and I think this show at the Guggenheim, on many levels,
0:53:51 > 0:53:52is an answer to that.
0:53:55 > 0:53:59One day, he walked into my office with this collage that he had made,
0:53:59 > 0:54:02where he had cut and pasted images of all his work
0:54:02 > 0:54:06and he said, "This is what I want to do."
0:54:07 > 0:54:10I thought it was preposterous that actually the Guggenheim would do
0:54:10 > 0:54:12something like this
0:54:12 > 0:54:16and that Maurizio would risk the safety of his work.
0:54:16 > 0:54:19I think he realised he had to take on the building.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24The most controversial building in the history of New York City -
0:54:24 > 0:54:26the Solomon R Guggenheim Museum.
0:54:26 > 0:54:29No artists ever win with the Guggenheim.
0:54:29 > 0:54:31Every time they try to do something,
0:54:31 > 0:54:36they just enhance the absolute, unique spirit of that museum.
0:54:36 > 0:54:39I think once you get up to a certain point,
0:54:39 > 0:54:41now you're in the catbird seat.
0:54:41 > 0:54:45Now you can do things like go to the Guggenheim and say, you know,
0:54:45 > 0:54:49"Hang the whole body of my work from the ceiling," and it happens.
0:54:53 > 0:54:56Unlike a conventional retrospective, where you're really selecting the
0:54:56 > 0:55:00highlights, the concept of this show was that everything he'd ever made
0:55:00 > 0:55:06- was hanging... - In this rather disrespectful way.
0:55:06 > 0:55:11He used the analogy, many times, of dirty laundry hung up.
0:55:11 > 0:55:13Hanging up the family cat by its tail.
0:55:13 > 0:55:15The mass slaughter.
0:55:15 > 0:55:17Like a big pinata.
0:55:17 > 0:55:19Sausages in a butcher's window.
0:55:19 > 0:55:22A toy that you would see on an infant's crib.
0:55:22 > 0:55:25That was the whole point - was to be disrespectful.
0:55:28 > 0:55:32I met with the key players to see if we could physically do it,
0:55:32 > 0:55:36whether the building could bear the weight of the sculpture.
0:55:36 > 0:55:39There are 12 ribs that come down from the skylight
0:55:39 > 0:55:44and the work had to be evenly distributed on those ribs.
0:55:44 > 0:55:47Our engineers reviewed the plans and came up with a plan
0:55:47 > 0:55:50that would allow us to suspend the work in the rotunda.
0:55:51 > 0:55:55What I said to Maurizio at the time was that if we were to do this,
0:55:55 > 0:55:57they had to be the actual objects.
0:55:57 > 0:56:00We couldn't use exhibition copies because the risk had to be real.
0:56:02 > 0:56:04Most of these pieces were made to sit on the ground or
0:56:04 > 0:56:06stand on the ground.
0:56:07 > 0:56:08Novecento, the horse, of course,
0:56:08 > 0:56:11was something that was engineered to hang,
0:56:11 > 0:56:12but very little else.
0:56:28 > 0:56:32The way we installed the show is that the truss started off
0:56:32 > 0:56:35on the ground and then gradually was lifted up.
0:56:42 > 0:56:45Just really a few inches a couple of times a day...
0:56:45 > 0:56:48as more works were added.
0:56:59 > 0:57:02Our conservator's job is to make sure
0:57:02 > 0:57:04that the works are entirely safe
0:57:04 > 0:57:06at every point that they're on display.
0:57:10 > 0:57:13Usually, you know, you're concerned about people touching the work
0:57:13 > 0:57:16or something like that.
0:57:16 > 0:57:18This was a whole different set of challenges.
0:57:55 > 0:57:59So, over the course of a month of the installation,
0:57:59 > 0:58:01the truss gradually ascended.
0:58:23 > 0:58:27And all of the works were added, ending with Novecento,
0:58:27 > 0:58:29the suspended horse.
0:58:43 > 0:58:46The revelation that occurred to both Maurizio
0:58:46 > 0:58:51and to me at about the same time was that, by combining all of the work,
0:58:51 > 0:58:56he had created an independent work of art in that installation,
0:58:56 > 0:58:58albeit a temporary one.
0:59:00 > 0:59:04But it could never happen again and probably shouldn't.
0:59:27 > 0:59:32In the back of my mind, I was very worried that some miscalculation
0:59:32 > 0:59:35had happened and that the Frank Lloyd Wright building
0:59:35 > 0:59:38would crumble and it would be my fault.
0:59:39 > 0:59:43But I think that that's part of the power of the exhibition itself,
0:59:43 > 0:59:45that it looked preposterous.
0:59:45 > 0:59:49I think that was really key to the experience of the show.
1:00:14 > 1:00:18We have a policy of no photography in the exhibitions,
1:00:18 > 1:00:22but we recognised the fact that people just needed to record it
1:00:22 > 1:00:24because it was so extraordinary and
1:00:24 > 1:00:28then it was wonderfully distributed out in the world.
1:00:28 > 1:00:31People went crazy for this show.
1:00:31 > 1:00:33The museum had to extend their hours.
1:00:33 > 1:00:36There were lines around the block.
1:00:36 > 1:00:41This sight - good or bad, crapola or transcendence -
1:00:41 > 1:00:45you'll remember it. This changes your idea.
1:00:57 > 1:01:04I was expecting it to have this anarchic, rebellious quality,
1:01:04 > 1:01:09for it to be this very bold gesture of spectacle.
1:01:11 > 1:01:12But really,
1:01:12 > 1:01:18what struck me more than anything was the intense vulnerability.
1:01:18 > 1:01:21Well, Maurizio hates his works.
1:01:21 > 1:01:24He hates what he does.
1:01:24 > 1:01:26Every time you ask him about something, he's like,
1:01:26 > 1:01:28"Oh, it's crap.
1:01:28 > 1:01:32"I can't look at it." I don't know, it's like...
1:01:32 > 1:01:34He has, like, an internal conflict.
1:01:34 > 1:01:38He can't allow himself to actually
1:01:38 > 1:01:41admire it and say, "You know, I've done a good job.
1:01:41 > 1:01:43"I like this."
1:01:46 > 1:01:51His work really worked when he was the guy outside and, as an outsider,
1:01:51 > 1:01:56then he can launch these missiles into the art world.
1:01:56 > 1:02:01But once he becomes one of the expensive and valued artists...
1:02:02 > 1:02:05..you can't be a renegade.
1:02:06 > 1:02:08You can't be the prankster.
1:02:09 > 1:02:12You can't be the court jester any more.
1:02:13 > 1:02:18The announcement of his retirement was greeted with great scepticism.
1:02:18 > 1:02:20Just remember, he announces his retirement
1:02:20 > 1:02:22at the absolute peak of his career.
1:02:30 > 1:02:33I mean, he works an insane amount.
1:02:33 > 1:02:37He's working every day and he's always thinking about the next move.
1:02:37 > 1:02:40I think if he were ever completely satisfied or ever completely happy,
1:02:40 > 1:02:45he would just be done. I mean, he'll be happy if he's dead.
1:02:47 > 1:02:49Yeah, I think he's obsessed.
1:02:49 > 1:02:54He's made for art and when we were together,
1:02:54 > 1:02:57he used to say that art was his other woman...
1:02:57 > 1:03:00was his other girlfriend,
1:03:00 > 1:03:02but I think she was the most
1:03:02 > 1:03:04important one out of the two of us...
1:03:06 > 1:03:09..and so I think, yeah, ultimately...
1:03:10 > 1:03:15..that's the companion with which he's going to die...
1:03:15 > 1:03:16for sure.
1:03:17 > 1:03:20Although at some point, we did want to have children,
1:03:20 > 1:03:24it's just we never really managed and so...
1:03:26 > 1:03:31It was very, very difficult but I know, in the end, it was...
1:03:31 > 1:03:33Really, it was for the best.
1:03:33 > 1:03:37I don't think we would have been happy together
1:03:37 > 1:03:38and, erm...
1:03:45 > 1:03:49We have our arts, so we don't die of truth.
1:04:03 > 1:04:04YENTOB: And Maurizio Cattelan's
1:04:04 > 1:04:06comeback show, Not Afraid Of Love,
1:04:06 > 1:04:08is currently running at the
1:04:08 > 1:04:11Monnaie de Paris in France.
1:04:39 > 1:04:43OK. Paris gallerist. A Paris gallerist, OK.
1:04:43 > 1:04:47- Paris gallerist.- Paris gallerist. Paris gallerist... OK.
1:04:47 > 1:04:49- So, just from that line, then? - Yeah.
1:04:49 > 1:04:54For another show, he had his Paris gallerist dress up in a costume
1:04:54 > 1:04:58that was a pink rabbit in the shape of a penis.
1:04:58 > 1:05:00Pink rabbit in the shape of a penis.
1:05:00 > 1:05:02In the shape of a penis.
1:05:02 > 1:05:03Shaped like a penis.
1:05:03 > 1:05:05A penis. A penis.
1:05:05 > 1:05:07OK, now we're done.
1:05:07 > 1:05:09LAUGHTER
1:05:09 > 1:05:12You never have to say it again.
1:05:12 > 1:05:17YENTOB: Victoria Armutt - there's something fishy going on here.
1:05:17 > 1:05:19She's surely another Cattelan creation.
1:05:21 > 1:05:25Or is it the work of the film-maker, Maura Axelrod?