McCullin

0:00:02 > 0:00:03Tonight's Imagine presents an intimate portrait

0:00:03 > 0:00:06of the great British war photographer and photojournalist

0:00:06 > 0:00:08Don McCullin.

0:00:08 > 0:00:11In his early 20s, and with no formal training,

0:00:11 > 0:00:14McCullin began his career here in Finsbury Park,

0:00:14 > 0:00:20photographing the violent teenage gangs ruling the roost in the 1950s.

0:00:20 > 0:00:24He would go on to capture history as it was being made,

0:00:24 > 0:00:28bearing witness to the bloodiest conflicts of the last 50 years.

0:00:28 > 0:00:32Despite announcing his retirement from the warzone ten years ago,

0:00:32 > 0:00:34after returning from Iraq,

0:00:34 > 0:00:39McCullin decided to make a trip to Syria late last year.

0:00:39 > 0:00:43He wanted to show the human side of the ongoing conflict in Aleppo,

0:00:43 > 0:00:48where, not for the first time in his career, he came under sniper fire.

0:00:48 > 0:00:50A self-confessed war junkie,

0:00:50 > 0:00:54Don McCullin's quest to bring the ugly truths of the war

0:00:54 > 0:00:59to international attention would come at great personal cost.

0:00:59 > 0:01:03Jacqui and David Morris's often graphic film

0:01:03 > 0:01:07lays bare the addiction to danger, and the commitment to justice,

0:01:07 > 0:01:10that lie at the heart of this extraordinary life.

0:01:13 > 0:01:19This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find disturbing.

0:01:34 > 0:01:38War is partly madness, mostly insanity,

0:01:38 > 0:01:41and the rest of it is schizophrenia.

0:01:44 > 0:01:49You do ask yourself, "Why am I here? What's my purpose?

0:01:49 > 0:01:51"What's this got to do with photography?"

0:01:51 > 0:01:55And it goes on and on, the questioning.

0:01:55 > 0:01:57You're trying to stay alive, you're trying to take pictures,

0:01:57 > 0:02:00you're trying to justify your presence there.

0:02:00 > 0:02:02And you think, "What good is this going to do anyway?

0:02:02 > 0:02:05"These people have already been killed."

0:02:07 > 0:02:10There were many battles within my own mind,

0:02:10 > 0:02:12before I got to these major conflicts.

0:02:12 > 0:02:15And when I got there, I was even more confused.

0:02:18 > 0:02:20I try to stay calm.

0:02:20 > 0:02:25I try not to indulge myself in this picture-taking.

0:02:25 > 0:02:33It was something I was meant to do, but how far was I allowed to take it?

0:02:37 > 0:02:39There was a lot of hypocrisy spinning around

0:02:39 > 0:02:41inside my own mind at the time.

0:02:41 > 0:02:47I didn't really think, um, it was right to be there,

0:02:47 > 0:02:48because I sometimes felt that

0:02:48 > 0:02:52the people who were doing these terrible things

0:02:52 > 0:02:57thought, you know, that I was OK-ing it,

0:02:57 > 0:03:00which I certainly wasn't.

0:03:23 > 0:03:26The first execution I ever saw in my life

0:03:26 > 0:03:30was a dawn execution of a bomber who had killed a load of people

0:03:30 > 0:03:33in the Saigon market a few weeks before.

0:03:33 > 0:03:36And there were all these photographers and journalists,

0:03:36 > 0:03:38they were all on this Jeep, you couldn't get another man on,

0:03:38 > 0:03:42and there was nowhere I could see. But I saw the event.

0:03:42 > 0:03:44They brought the man, in a Volkswagen truck.

0:03:44 > 0:03:47He got out and screamed anti-Americans.

0:03:47 > 0:03:49The firing squad shot him.

0:03:49 > 0:03:53A man stepped forward, grabbed a turf of his hair,

0:03:53 > 0:03:55and shot him through the brains.

0:03:55 > 0:03:57And I stood there with my mouth wide open.

0:03:57 > 0:03:58And I heard a man saying,

0:03:58 > 0:04:01"God, that was great stuff, did you get it, did you get it?"

0:04:01 > 0:04:06And I have never forgotten, to this day, and that was in 1965,

0:04:06 > 0:04:08and I didn't get it.

0:04:08 > 0:04:10And I never said anything about this situation

0:04:10 > 0:04:13to the people in the Sunday Times, because they would have thought

0:04:13 > 0:04:18I must have been a rank amateur not to have got such a picture.

0:04:18 > 0:04:20But, looking back,

0:04:20 > 0:04:25did I have the right to take that man's picture of his murder?

0:04:25 > 0:04:29Because, in a way, public executions are nothing less than murder.

0:04:29 > 0:04:31And I didn't get the picture.

0:04:41 > 0:04:44MUSIC AND APPLAUSE

0:04:52 > 0:04:56You came from a fairly rough background, didn't you, in London?

0:04:56 > 0:04:59It seems an unlikely ambition to have, your first ambition,

0:04:59 > 0:05:02to be a painter. Was that regarded as a bit sissy?

0:05:02 > 0:05:05Well, yes, it was, because where I live,

0:05:05 > 0:05:07you were expected to take on anybody.

0:05:07 > 0:05:09You'd never back down from an argument.

0:05:09 > 0:05:11I used to get some terrible hidings when I was a boy.

0:05:11 > 0:05:13But my father, when he was alive,

0:05:13 > 0:05:16he used to let me draw on the kitchen wall.

0:05:16 > 0:05:19And I'd actually stick pieces of paper on the wall,

0:05:19 > 0:05:21but I went over the edge, so there was always

0:05:21 > 0:05:23empty pictures with marvellous edges.

0:05:23 > 0:05:25RIPPLE OF LAUGHTER

0:05:25 > 0:05:27I lived in a house that was a tenement house,

0:05:27 > 0:05:30so we could knock huge nails in the walls and stick things on the walls.

0:05:30 > 0:05:33I wouldn't let my kids do it now but...

0:05:33 > 0:05:37My art career didn't last very long,

0:05:37 > 0:05:40because I got a junior art scholarship,

0:05:40 > 0:05:43and my father died and I had to go to work.

0:05:45 > 0:05:49MUSIC: "Move It" by Cliff Richard

0:05:52 > 0:05:54# Come on, pretty baby, let's move it and a-groove it

0:05:57 > 0:06:01# Well, shake, oh, baby, shake, oh, honey, please don't lose it

0:06:03 > 0:06:06# It's rhythm that gets into your heart and soul

0:06:09 > 0:06:12# Well, let me tell you, baby, it's called rock'n'roll. #

0:06:15 > 0:06:20I took a set of pictures of the boys I grew up with.

0:06:20 > 0:06:24They were involved in the killing of a policeman.

0:06:24 > 0:06:26They didn't actually kill the policeman,

0:06:26 > 0:06:28the rival gang that came from Islington,

0:06:28 > 0:06:30they were responsible for that killing.

0:06:30 > 0:06:33So, I took the photos to the Observer.

0:06:33 > 0:06:35They asked me to do more. I did more.

0:06:35 > 0:06:37They published the photos.

0:06:37 > 0:06:40They gave me the princely sum of £50.

0:06:40 > 0:06:47In those days, £50 from where I came from was like five weeks' wages.

0:06:47 > 0:06:51And then, I was, I suppose you could say, I was on the road to photography

0:06:51 > 0:06:53which has been a lifelong love affair.

0:06:53 > 0:06:56It has been really an amazing experience for me.

0:06:56 > 0:06:59Because you've got to remember, I don't have any education,

0:06:59 > 0:07:01I couldn't read properly.

0:07:01 > 0:07:04I came from a violent background where people were mostly interested

0:07:04 > 0:07:08in how well you could fight or steal, or do harm to society.

0:07:08 > 0:07:15So, quite honestly, having this amazing door opening, someone saying,

0:07:15 > 0:07:20"There's your freedom from ignorance and bigotry and violence."

0:07:20 > 0:07:24It was amazing I managed to escape from Finsbury Park.

0:07:26 > 0:07:30I've often wondered, how did he get that first memorable,

0:07:30 > 0:07:33urban landscape of the lads, the gang,

0:07:33 > 0:07:36The Guv'nors, as they were called in East London,

0:07:36 > 0:07:38standing in a derelict house?

0:07:38 > 0:07:41Perfectly framed by the building,

0:07:41 > 0:07:44and seeing right through the building.

0:07:44 > 0:07:47It was so emblematic of gang warfare and the roughness of London.

0:07:47 > 0:07:52And here we have a picture which is almost beautiful in its composition.

0:07:52 > 0:07:56You could say, there is no beauty in what this gang was up to.

0:07:56 > 0:07:59But he related, he had a sensitivity.

0:07:59 > 0:08:01An empathy is something you can't fake.

0:08:04 > 0:08:07This is the bloke I gave a good hiding to.

0:08:07 > 0:08:09HE LAUGHS

0:08:09 > 0:08:11He tried to hit me with a brick.

0:08:13 > 0:08:15We had all been to a funeral.

0:08:15 > 0:08:18One of the little girls had committed suicide,

0:08:18 > 0:08:22put her head in a gas oven over some bloke I grew up with.

0:08:22 > 0:08:25We came back from the funeral, and he ran past my car

0:08:25 > 0:08:27and snapped the wing mirror off.

0:08:27 > 0:08:29And he was peeing in this alleyway,

0:08:29 > 0:08:32that's when I should really have laid into him, while he was peeing,

0:08:32 > 0:08:36because it's difficult to fight back if you're in a situation like that.

0:08:36 > 0:08:38Then he picked a brick up, came roaring at me.

0:08:38 > 0:08:42Then I managed to get hold of it and reverse the charges.

0:08:45 > 0:08:51Wasn't I lucky to have grown up in a period of the '60s, '70s, the '80s,

0:08:51 > 0:08:53when it was all happening?

0:08:53 > 0:08:58It was as if, like it was carved out for me, really.

0:08:58 > 0:09:00I did grasp the nettle,

0:09:00 > 0:09:03I didn't just look at it and think, "God, I wish I was there."

0:09:03 > 0:09:07I used to say, "I'm going to go there." And I did.

0:09:07 > 0:09:11- NEWSREEL: - Paris in the spring of 1961,

0:09:11 > 0:09:15and the time of President Kennedy's visit, was as beautiful as ever.

0:09:19 > 0:09:22I was in Paris with my wife, my new wife really,

0:09:22 > 0:09:25we'd only been married a few weeks.

0:09:25 > 0:09:28And I was like a fish out of water really,

0:09:28 > 0:09:30because I couldn't speak the language.

0:09:30 > 0:09:34And whilst we were in Paris, I saw somebody reading a newspaper.

0:09:34 > 0:09:37It was a photograph of an East German soldier

0:09:37 > 0:09:41jumping over some barbed wire, which was only, at that stage,

0:09:41 > 0:09:44separating them from the West.

0:09:45 > 0:09:48Of course, the story had been building up,

0:09:48 > 0:09:50potentially been building up.

0:09:50 > 0:09:53I looked at this photograph, it was a memorable picture.

0:09:53 > 0:09:56And I said to her, "When we get back to England,"

0:09:56 > 0:10:00knowing I only had £70 in my savings account,

0:10:00 > 0:10:02"would you mind if I went to Berlin?"

0:10:02 > 0:10:04And she said, "Of course I don't mind."

0:10:04 > 0:10:08- NEWSREEL:- The East Germans don't seem to have girders enough

0:10:08 > 0:10:09to plug every hole.

0:10:09 > 0:10:11When a soldier's attention is diverted by others,

0:10:11 > 0:10:13a hole is cut in the barbed wire,

0:10:13 > 0:10:17and Khrushchev's face is slapped again.

0:10:17 > 0:10:19I rang the Observer newspaper, and they said,

0:10:19 > 0:10:21"We're not interested in you going."

0:10:21 > 0:10:25And I said, "Well, I bought the ticket." There was no commission.

0:10:25 > 0:10:28So, I got near to a place called Friedrichstrasse,

0:10:28 > 0:10:31which was the centre of all the problem.

0:10:31 > 0:10:34The Americans were facing the Russians.

0:10:34 > 0:10:37There were tanks facing each other.

0:10:37 > 0:10:39At that stage, in Friedrichstrasse,

0:10:39 > 0:10:42they were actually building the beginnings of the Berlin Wall.

0:10:42 > 0:10:47This was really the right place to be.

0:10:47 > 0:10:50- NEWSREEL:- Camera crews are harassed by reflecting mirrors

0:10:50 > 0:10:52held by East German police.

0:10:52 > 0:10:54Water hoses are played on equipment.

0:10:54 > 0:10:57Nevertheless, our reporters are able to come up with remarkable pictures,

0:10:57 > 0:11:00despite these hazards.

0:11:00 > 0:11:02My camera equipment wasn't very good, actually.

0:11:02 > 0:11:06I had a camera I had bought during my time in the air force.

0:11:06 > 0:11:08It was totally the wrong shape

0:11:08 > 0:11:12to give me the kind of pictures that I needed.

0:11:12 > 0:11:15But, nevertheless, I stretched the use of this camera, kneeling down

0:11:15 > 0:11:19and holding it up high and doing all kinds of funny things with it.

0:11:20 > 0:11:23By the time that I'd been there a few days,

0:11:23 > 0:11:27that wall went up pretty fast. And people could not escape.

0:11:29 > 0:11:31And I looked at East German soldiers

0:11:31 > 0:11:36leaning out of buildings on the other side of the wall, with binoculars.

0:11:36 > 0:11:39And looking right at me. And I thought,

0:11:39 > 0:11:44"They can't hurt me, because they're over there and I'm here."

0:11:44 > 0:11:47It was very exciting, it was at the heightened part of the Cold War

0:11:47 > 0:11:50where the Russians were quite prepared

0:11:50 > 0:11:53to make a stand against the West, and vice versa.

0:11:55 > 0:11:58What it really comes down to is that I was sitting on top of

0:11:58 > 0:12:01the most important news story in the world.

0:12:01 > 0:12:04And it was my decision,

0:12:05 > 0:12:08this intuition that took me there in the first place.

0:12:08 > 0:12:11So, I was beginning to show signs of having a brain

0:12:11 > 0:12:14that was functioning in the right direction.

0:12:16 > 0:12:19I came back to England with the film

0:12:19 > 0:12:22and got it processed in the Observer's darkroom.

0:12:22 > 0:12:28And they saw the pictures and they ran half a page of my story.

0:12:28 > 0:12:31The story was then entered into the news category

0:12:31 > 0:12:36for the News Pictures of the Year. And I won this award.

0:12:36 > 0:12:38And the Observer gave me a contract after that.

0:12:47 > 0:12:49So, I started getting better jobs at the Observer.

0:12:49 > 0:12:53I started going to all kinds of political rallies and things.

0:12:56 > 0:12:58I would go to the East End of London

0:12:58 > 0:13:03and photograph disturbances with Oswald Mosley, situations like that.

0:13:06 > 0:13:08It was a developing and an expanding situation

0:13:08 > 0:13:10for the early part of my career.

0:13:20 > 0:13:22- NEWSREEL:- The tinderbox that is Cyprus threatens to erupt

0:13:22 > 0:13:23into a full-scale war.

0:13:23 > 0:13:28Greek students demonstrate against British and US proposals

0:13:28 > 0:13:31that a force of NATO troops help maintain a truce on the island

0:13:31 > 0:13:34until differences between Greeks and Turks can be resolved.

0:13:34 > 0:13:37I walked into the Observer office one day, and the editor said to me,

0:13:37 > 0:13:42"How would you consider covering the civil war for us in Cyprus?"

0:13:42 > 0:13:45And at that point in my life, I wasn't ready.

0:13:45 > 0:13:51And I felt that, when I think about those words, I think,

0:13:51 > 0:13:55I must have been levitating. I felt as if I was rising off the ground.

0:13:55 > 0:13:58I knew that the second door was opening.

0:13:58 > 0:14:02- NEWSREEL:- The terror of civil war struck Cyprus in December.

0:14:02 > 0:14:05On Boxing Day, the British came in to stop the bloodshed.

0:14:05 > 0:14:07So, I thought, I'm going to do my best here.

0:14:07 > 0:14:10And I'm going to make an impression. This is my big chance.

0:14:10 > 0:14:14So, I went to the Turkish community.

0:14:14 > 0:14:16And they were surrounded by the Greeks.

0:14:16 > 0:14:18I managed to slip past the roadblocks and get in.

0:14:21 > 0:14:23I could hear gunfire.

0:14:23 > 0:14:28That was the first time I had heard, in my life, hostile gunfire.

0:14:28 > 0:14:33And then, suddenly, out of the cinema burst a man with a machine gun,

0:14:33 > 0:14:37and he had a raincoat on and a flat hat.

0:14:37 > 0:14:41And he looked like something like a Sicilian Mafioso bandit.

0:14:43 > 0:14:47And then people ran out with mattresses on their heads,

0:14:47 > 0:14:50women and children, as if a mattress would stop a bullet.

0:14:50 > 0:14:54And this was my baptism of war.

0:14:55 > 0:14:58I had to assess very quickly what was going on,

0:14:58 > 0:15:01where the fire was coming from.

0:15:01 > 0:15:06As the day wore on, we were trapped in these empty streets.

0:15:06 > 0:15:09There were groups of fighters, Turkish defenders.

0:15:09 > 0:15:13And funny, curious things caught my eye.

0:15:13 > 0:15:16I could remember a group of men behind barricades.

0:15:16 > 0:15:19It was almost like the Spanish Civil War, really.

0:15:19 > 0:15:24And by the barricade, there were men with an ill-assorted bunch of weapons

0:15:24 > 0:15:29and old, almost muskety-looking kind of museum pieces.

0:15:29 > 0:15:35But standing near this group of men was a beautiful dog.

0:15:40 > 0:15:44I thought, "Why is it that these things come to you,

0:15:44 > 0:15:47"when you should be thinking about more serious things?"

0:15:47 > 0:15:52But to be truthful, these little things sometimes tell you

0:15:52 > 0:15:57much more about a story than the obvious things.

0:15:57 > 0:16:01So, I think what I'm getting down to here is,

0:16:01 > 0:16:02we're talking about sensitivity.

0:16:05 > 0:16:09What I had to realise at the time, I was learning a new trade.

0:16:11 > 0:16:14I was learning about the price of humanity and its sufferings.

0:16:19 > 0:16:22- NEWSREEL:- Now, four months later, the armed forces of both sides

0:16:22 > 0:16:26are still defying the UN's attempts to keep the peace.

0:16:26 > 0:16:30And the Cyprus situation is as dangerous and complex as ever.

0:16:30 > 0:16:32The UN is powerless to do anything

0:16:32 > 0:16:35that would really help restore law and order.

0:16:39 > 0:16:42I saw a whole village trying to evacuate, they were being attacked,

0:16:42 > 0:16:46to somewhere with more safety, like a school building.

0:16:46 > 0:16:50And there was this one old lady, who was lame, and she had two sticks.

0:16:50 > 0:16:53And she really couldn't get those legs moving.

0:16:53 > 0:16:56And there was a British soldier trying to coax her along,

0:16:56 > 0:16:59persuade her to hurry up before she'd probably lose her life.

0:16:59 > 0:17:02And I was with a friend of mine, I said, "This is ridiculous."

0:17:02 > 0:17:04I took one picture of the soldier and the old lady,

0:17:04 > 0:17:06and I put my cameras down.

0:17:06 > 0:17:09And I scooped this old lady up in my arms.

0:17:09 > 0:17:12It was like scooping up some rag doll that had fallen from a child's pram.

0:17:12 > 0:17:16I just ran and ran with her. I don't know why I did it.

0:17:16 > 0:17:19But I didn't really want to see that old lady shot down and killed.

0:17:19 > 0:17:24And I went back to my position as a photographer, and I carried on.

0:17:24 > 0:17:26But it made me feel good.

0:17:26 > 0:17:29I it made me feel as if I wasn't just there as a voyeur

0:17:29 > 0:17:34that was enjoying other people's misery and possible deaths.

0:17:34 > 0:17:37It's a very fine line.

0:17:37 > 0:17:41I've been constantly accused of taking terrible pictures

0:17:41 > 0:17:43and people saying, "Did you ever help anyone?"

0:17:43 > 0:17:47Of course I did. But I don't want to brag about it.

0:17:47 > 0:17:50I did it sometimes to clear my own conscience.

0:18:06 > 0:18:08These little battles were erupting all over

0:18:08 > 0:18:13the northern part of the island of Cyprus, where the Turks lived.

0:18:13 > 0:18:15We saw this soldier looking at the bodies, and I said,

0:18:15 > 0:18:19"What's happening?" He said, "There's been some killing," he said,

0:18:19 > 0:18:24"There's a dead body up there and some more in that house."

0:18:24 > 0:18:28I knocked on the door, I tapped on this door and there was no answer.

0:18:29 > 0:18:32And I let myself in.

0:18:32 > 0:18:36And the first thing I was greeted with was warm blood.

0:18:40 > 0:18:42These men had been murdered the day before,

0:18:42 > 0:18:45and the warm, early morning sunlight had penetrated through

0:18:45 > 0:18:47the glass door of this house.

0:18:47 > 0:18:50And I closed the door and I tiptoed around the room,

0:18:50 > 0:18:54and I got myself in a corner, and I was taking the first shot.

0:18:54 > 0:18:57And suddenly, the door opened and, to my horror, the whole family burst in.

0:19:00 > 0:19:05I thought, my God, they're going to be really cross, finding me in here.

0:19:05 > 0:19:10To my astonishment, they weren't, so I carried on photographing.

0:19:10 > 0:19:14And there was a woman who started screaming like mad.

0:19:14 > 0:19:17And the truth was that it was her husband who was just below my feet,

0:19:17 > 0:19:21who was dead. A new husband at that, they had only been married a week.

0:19:21 > 0:19:25And the Greeks came the day before and attacked this community

0:19:25 > 0:19:29and murdered these people in cold blood in this house.

0:19:34 > 0:19:40I'd go into a village one day, and I got there in the early morning.

0:19:40 > 0:19:42And they were finding bodies of Turkish men

0:19:42 > 0:19:44who were defending the villages.

0:19:44 > 0:19:46And then they were coming back to the village

0:19:46 > 0:19:48and telling women that their husbands had been killed.

0:19:48 > 0:19:52And then you saw these Goya-esque kind of poses

0:19:52 > 0:19:55of people looking up to Christ.

0:19:55 > 0:19:57I've noticed that a lot in wars.

0:19:57 > 0:20:01When people are in deep grief and emotion, they look up

0:20:01 > 0:20:05as if they can see God himself there, offering them some help.

0:20:05 > 0:20:08And you see that in Goya's drawings.

0:20:08 > 0:20:11Before men are being shot or massacred,

0:20:11 > 0:20:13they look up, or they are praying,

0:20:13 > 0:20:17and it's part of that religious nature of the great painters.

0:20:19 > 0:20:22That moment is so classic.

0:20:22 > 0:20:25I call it one of the decisive moments in photography.

0:20:25 > 0:20:30Because it combines the news moments with the compositional elements

0:20:30 > 0:20:32which make a photograph in themselves.

0:20:32 > 0:20:37So, there is something, a second or two would have made a difference.

0:20:39 > 0:20:42I asked Don how he took the picture.

0:20:42 > 0:20:46As I recall it, he actually had to fall to his knees quickly to get it

0:20:46 > 0:20:48because he just sensed it was coming.

0:20:56 > 0:20:59I mean, OK, I talk as if there's a lot of poetry in me.

0:20:59 > 0:21:03There isn't. I'm a photographer. I am neither an artist or a poet.

0:21:03 > 0:21:05I'm a photographer.

0:21:05 > 0:21:10And one of the things I've learned most of all, erm,

0:21:10 > 0:21:13over and above photography,

0:21:13 > 0:21:17the very best qualifications you can have when you are in this situation,

0:21:17 > 0:21:21and you are exercising this duty as a photographer, or whatever, reporter,

0:21:21 > 0:21:27is that it's much better to be on the side of humanity.

0:21:29 > 0:21:33All this was coming at me so fast, this responsibility.

0:21:33 > 0:21:37And I felt, almost from the word go, I got a grip of it,

0:21:37 > 0:21:40and I thought, I understand what I'm doing for the first time.

0:21:40 > 0:21:41I'm meant to be doing this.

0:22:32 > 0:22:35There was a decree put out that journalists were not allowed

0:22:35 > 0:22:38to leave Leopoldville.

0:22:38 > 0:22:41And then I thought, here I am, all this way out here in the Congo

0:22:41 > 0:22:44and now I can't even leave out of the capital.

0:22:44 > 0:22:47So, I had it in mind, and I knew that there were mercenaries

0:22:47 > 0:22:49operating up in a place called Stanleyville.

0:22:49 > 0:22:51I quickly managed to discover all this.

0:22:51 > 0:22:52I've been appointed by Mr Tchombe

0:22:52 > 0:22:55to recruit a number, which I can't disclose,

0:22:55 > 0:22:58of men to form a fighting unit in the Congo,

0:22:58 > 0:23:00to dispel the present rebellion.

0:23:00 > 0:23:02"Mercenary" is a dirty word.

0:23:02 > 0:23:04This unit is going to change the meaning of that word,

0:23:04 > 0:23:08and "mercenary" will now be a badge of honour,

0:23:08 > 0:23:11rather than a dirty word in the English language.

0:23:11 > 0:23:15I met one of these mercenaries, and his name was Alan Murphy.

0:23:15 > 0:23:18And I said, "Could you get me some information about this?"

0:23:18 > 0:23:20And I pumped him for how to get there.

0:23:20 > 0:23:23And he said, what happens was, every morning,

0:23:23 > 0:23:26a C130 American plane, under the CIA,

0:23:26 > 0:23:31would take groups of mercenaries to Stanleyville.

0:23:31 > 0:23:34And I said, "Could you get me one of your shirts and a pair of trousers,

0:23:34 > 0:23:36"and if I sleep overnight in the hotel,

0:23:36 > 0:23:39"would you kick my bed in the morning when you get the call to leave?"

0:23:39 > 0:23:42And he did just that.

0:23:42 > 0:23:47And I see myself now, many, 40 years ago, standing on that runway

0:23:47 > 0:23:50with the early-morning rain shower that had passed.

0:23:50 > 0:23:53And a man with a clipboard, who happened to be a CIA man,

0:23:53 > 0:23:58asking people's names. And I thought, I've had it. I've had it, you know.

0:23:58 > 0:24:01Then he came up to me and he said, "What's your name?"

0:24:01 > 0:24:04And I said, "McCullin." He said, "You're not on the list."

0:24:04 > 0:24:06I said, "I should be," and my legs were like jelly.

0:24:06 > 0:24:09And he said, he wrote my name down, he said, "OK, climb aboard."

0:24:09 > 0:24:13And I'd cracked this amazing no-go situation.

0:25:06 > 0:25:08When I arrived in Stanleyville,

0:25:08 > 0:25:10I could hear a lot of shouting and screaming,

0:25:10 > 0:25:14people crying and gunfire.

0:25:14 > 0:25:18And I saw gangs of boys who had been tied up, and they were being beaten

0:25:18 > 0:25:21and shot in the back of the head and kicked into the river.

0:25:21 > 0:25:22I was looking at all this.

0:25:22 > 0:25:26I had my little camera in my bag, and 20 rolls of film.

0:25:26 > 0:25:29And I thought, how am I going to bring my camera out now

0:25:29 > 0:25:32and declare that I shouldn't be here and I'm not a mercenary?

0:25:32 > 0:25:33Because it was a huge gamble.

0:25:39 > 0:25:44And it was the Congolese gendarmerie who were killing these people,

0:25:44 > 0:25:47torturing them, dragging them behind trucks on wires,

0:25:47 > 0:25:49it was really terrible.

0:25:49 > 0:25:51They were skinned alive, some of them.

0:25:57 > 0:26:00It was a kind of wood yard, and they were sitting in a corner, shivering.

0:26:00 > 0:26:03Knowing that any moment, they would be shot.

0:26:06 > 0:26:09And then they dragged some of these boys out in front of me

0:26:09 > 0:26:11and started brutalising them.

0:26:12 > 0:26:15And I had no power, by the way, to prevent this.

0:26:18 > 0:26:20I took a few pictures and I walked away.

0:26:20 > 0:26:25I thought, you know, you have a moral sense of purpose and duty.

0:26:25 > 0:26:30You have to work out which of those purposes and duty you are there for.

0:26:30 > 0:26:32It's very difficult too.

0:26:32 > 0:26:36You want to take this picture, and you want to stop it.

0:26:36 > 0:26:39And it's a very difficult thing.

0:26:39 > 0:26:41It came up more and more my life,

0:26:41 > 0:26:43seeing people executed in front of me.

0:26:49 > 0:26:51GUNFIRE

0:26:57 > 0:27:00RAPID GUNFIRE

0:27:00 > 0:27:03There was a man called Mike Hoare

0:27:03 > 0:27:06who was battling on the other side of this river, the Lualaba.

0:27:07 > 0:27:10He was in charge of Fifth Commando,

0:27:10 > 0:27:12these mercenaries I had teamed up with.

0:27:12 > 0:27:15So, I arrived on the other side.

0:27:15 > 0:27:18And then, Mike Hoare came to me and said,

0:27:18 > 0:27:22"What are you doing, who are you? Where have you come from?"

0:27:22 > 0:27:25And I said, "I have to be clean with you now,

0:27:25 > 0:27:27"I'm working for the Observer newspaper."

0:27:27 > 0:27:30He wouldn't have understood the German magazine, Quick.

0:27:30 > 0:27:34I immediately fell back on my English heritage.

0:27:34 > 0:27:36So, he said, "I'll deal with you in the morning,

0:27:36 > 0:27:39"I'm going to hand you over to the Congolese military."

0:27:39 > 0:27:44Which one knew right away, that would be curtains.

0:27:46 > 0:27:50He said, "I admire what you have done, but I don't condone it."

0:27:50 > 0:27:53And then he totally switched his whole kind of attitude

0:27:53 > 0:27:56and offered to take me on this journey

0:27:56 > 0:28:00chasing these Simbas who had abducted these nuns.

0:28:00 > 0:28:04And they were cutting them to pieces with machetes on the way down,

0:28:04 > 0:28:05as they were fleeing from us.

0:28:08 > 0:28:10And we caught up with them.

0:28:22 > 0:28:24There was goodness in Mike Hoare,

0:28:24 > 0:28:28but there wasn't much goodness in what he stood for, really.

0:28:28 > 0:28:31He was there for the adventure and the money.

0:28:42 > 0:28:46There was one mercenary Rhodesian and I was sleeping in the same room

0:28:46 > 0:28:49and he had a whole box of stuff and I said, "Where did you get that?"

0:28:49 > 0:28:54He said, "I've just blown the bank in town but there was no money in it, unfortunately."

0:28:58 > 0:29:00Halfway through the night, I heard gunfire

0:29:00 > 0:29:02and I woke up in a great sweat.

0:29:02 > 0:29:05This Rhodesian had got drunk and shot these two African boys,

0:29:05 > 0:29:07who were doing all the laundry and the cooking

0:29:07 > 0:29:10for these mercenaries for breakfast.

0:29:10 > 0:29:13I remember looking at one of these poor black boys,

0:29:13 > 0:29:16he was about 12 years old and his eyes were open.

0:29:16 > 0:29:19And I looked at the mercenary and he said, "They asked for it.

0:29:19 > 0:29:23"I found a weapon on them." Which wasn't true.

0:29:24 > 0:29:27You know, some of these mercenaries,

0:29:27 > 0:29:30they just had a lust for killing Africans.

0:29:30 > 0:29:32HE MOANS

0:29:32 > 0:29:34I hated them in the end.

0:29:35 > 0:29:37GUNSHOT/HE SHOUTS

0:29:42 > 0:29:45When I came away from these atrocities, I kept thinking,

0:29:45 > 0:29:47"How am I going to get through this?"

0:29:47 > 0:29:50I love what I'm doing, I love photography but, you know,

0:29:50 > 0:29:54this other stuff is really too awful to live with, you know.

0:29:54 > 0:29:57And sometimes people used to say to me, "Do you have nightmares?"

0:29:57 > 0:29:59I would say, "No.

0:29:59 > 0:30:03"Only in the daytime, when my eyes are open and I'm awake

0:30:03 > 0:30:06"and my memory is, you know, on full alert."

0:30:06 > 0:30:11So when I see... I love photography,

0:30:11 > 0:30:15I love being in my darkroom, but even my darkroom is a haunted place.

0:30:15 > 0:30:19I go in there with the red light and it's like being in a womb

0:30:19 > 0:30:23and I play that music, which is only classical music,

0:30:23 > 0:30:28it somehow pleases me, but at the same moment,

0:30:28 > 0:30:31it takes me down and down and down to where I don't want to go.

0:30:31 > 0:30:34It's like as if I'm drowning in a very deep ocean...

0:30:35 > 0:30:38..and I'm trying to get back to the top again to see the daylight.

0:30:38 > 0:30:42So, you know, I don't just take photographs. I think.

0:30:42 > 0:30:44CLASSICAL MUSIC

0:31:10 > 0:31:12I would come back to Finsbury Park,

0:31:12 > 0:31:14because unfortunately,

0:31:14 > 0:31:18I was still living in quite poor circumstances with my new wife.

0:31:18 > 0:31:22And then, when there were odd days when I had nothing to do,

0:31:22 > 0:31:26I would go to the Wimpy bar and hang out with the same tribe, you know.

0:31:26 > 0:31:30And then they would say, "Where have you been lately?"

0:31:30 > 0:31:33I'd say, "I've been to the Congo with the mercenaries."

0:31:33 > 0:31:35And they would try to humour me...

0:31:37 > 0:31:39..but basically, they were almost putting me down,

0:31:39 > 0:31:42as if I was living in a Walter Mitty world.

0:31:48 > 0:31:51I did about four and a half years on the Observer

0:31:51 > 0:31:55and things were beginning to slow down for me and I could also...

0:31:55 > 0:31:58I started getting the taste and the need

0:31:58 > 0:32:01to do much bigger, you know, international stories.

0:32:02 > 0:32:06And a friend of mine called David King,

0:32:06 > 0:32:11who worked at the Sunday Times, said to me,

0:32:11 > 0:32:12"Why don't you come and join us?

0:32:12 > 0:32:15"Why don't you come and do some work for us? I'll give you work."

0:32:15 > 0:32:18So I did and he sent me off to the Mississippi.

0:32:18 > 0:32:20BLUES MUSIC

0:32:31 > 0:32:35It was an amazing part of the world, the Mississippi.

0:32:35 > 0:32:37They had the sharecroppers,

0:32:37 > 0:32:39the black people who brought in the cotton,

0:32:39 > 0:32:44living in shacks and sheds, and then you had New Orleans,

0:32:44 > 0:32:50where we basically, we arrived in New Orleans and it was amazing to see.

0:33:04 > 0:33:08And there was a Ku Klux Klan rally one night.

0:33:08 > 0:33:10It was like Hollywood.

0:33:10 > 0:33:12There was the big fire cross burning,

0:33:12 > 0:33:15these rather hateful people in these ridiculous kind of outfits,

0:33:15 > 0:33:17smoking huge cigars and basically

0:33:17 > 0:33:24saying, "Welcome," but, you know, at the same time intimidating us.

0:33:26 > 0:33:29I managed to, you know, get a few pictures, which David King,

0:33:29 > 0:33:32when I came back, put together.

0:33:32 > 0:33:35You know, you can take amazing pictures,

0:33:35 > 0:33:37but you still need to have them presented

0:33:37 > 0:33:41in a way that the public can accept them and understand them.

0:33:42 > 0:33:45That was my first assignment for the Sunday Times.

0:34:02 > 0:34:05Roy Thompson was not a journalist himself,

0:34:05 > 0:34:09but he was the best friend journalism ever had.

0:34:09 > 0:34:12He was very proud of his newspapers

0:34:12 > 0:34:14and he was so proud of their independence,

0:34:14 > 0:34:18he had a card printed which he carried in his pocket.

0:34:18 > 0:34:21So when Roy Thompson was attacked,

0:34:21 > 0:34:22"Why are you papers publishing this?"

0:34:22 > 0:34:25or, "Why are you putting these war photographs in the colour magazine?

0:34:25 > 0:34:28"We advertisers don't like it."

0:34:28 > 0:34:31He would pause and take out of his pocket a little card

0:34:31 > 0:34:35and it said, it was a kind of oath he'd made, you know,

0:34:35 > 0:34:40"The newspapers that I control will always be independent

0:34:40 > 0:34:44"and will run professionally and I do not interfere in them."

0:34:44 > 0:34:47So he would put the card back in his pocket and would say,

0:34:47 > 0:34:51"You wouldn't expect me to go against my own word, would you?"

0:34:51 > 0:34:54I was very privileged because I worked on the colour magazine,

0:34:54 > 0:34:59which was directly associated with the Sunday Times newspaper.

0:34:59 > 0:35:02And I had equally wonderful people there

0:35:02 > 0:35:07who allowed me to just disappear and come back several weeks later

0:35:07 > 0:35:10and on top of all that, allow me to edit my own material.

0:35:10 > 0:35:14He knew he had the confidence that if he did his part

0:35:14 > 0:35:18and took his photographs and reported with integrity

0:35:18 > 0:35:21and accuracy and with a sense of composition,

0:35:21 > 0:35:24that it wasn't going to be interfered with

0:35:24 > 0:35:27or rejected because of some other concerns.

0:35:27 > 0:35:32He trusted me and so it meant that I would try that much harder

0:35:32 > 0:35:34for people who gave me this wonderful freedom.

0:35:34 > 0:35:38So Roy Thomson, backing his editors,

0:35:38 > 0:35:41was crucial to the career of Don McCullin.

0:35:41 > 0:35:43MUSIC: "Tin Soldier" by The Small Faces

0:35:58 > 0:36:00The '60s were packed with opportunities

0:36:00 > 0:36:02if you wanted to go to war.

0:36:06 > 0:36:12# I am a little tin soldier that wants to jump into your fire... #

0:36:17 > 0:36:19Israeli soldiers, fresh from street fighting,

0:36:19 > 0:36:21snapped one another at the Wailing Wall.

0:36:21 > 0:36:24Pictures for girlfriends, or people from Tel Aviv.

0:36:25 > 0:36:29# All I need is treat me like a man

0:36:29 > 0:36:31# Cos I ain't no child... #

0:36:31 > 0:36:33If they think that I've come back happy,

0:36:33 > 0:36:37they know that I've got something ghastly to show.

0:36:38 > 0:36:40And if I've got something ghastly to show,

0:36:40 > 0:36:43it means that I'm trying to get the message over to people

0:36:43 > 0:36:47that even though I like being in a war and I like being there

0:36:47 > 0:36:49because it's a great adventure for me,

0:36:49 > 0:36:53my duty is to be there for a reason, not just to have a bloody good time.

0:36:53 > 0:36:56I covered the battle of the citadel of Hue,

0:36:56 > 0:36:58which was the biggest battle I'd ever been in.

0:36:58 > 0:37:01I mean, I wouldn't like to go through a year without being in a war.

0:37:01 > 0:37:03And it went on for two weeks

0:37:03 > 0:37:08and that was really the beginning of real madness.

0:37:08 > 0:37:10I'm getting a bit bad, really,

0:37:10 > 0:37:13because I'm looking forward to doing two wars a year

0:37:13 > 0:37:16and if I start looking forward to doing two or even more a year,

0:37:16 > 0:37:18I'm not going to survive.

0:37:22 > 0:37:24CLASSICAL MUSIC

0:37:25 > 0:37:27GUNFIRE

0:38:02 > 0:38:04Sleeping next to dead bodies.

0:38:04 > 0:38:07Looking at men who had been run over by tanks

0:38:07 > 0:38:10and looked like Persian carpets in the road.

0:38:10 > 0:38:13People with their brains hanging out.

0:38:14 > 0:38:18Living under tables and sleeping in rat-infested rooms.

0:38:19 > 0:38:23It was like, basically, going into total madness and insanity.

0:38:25 > 0:38:28I stood for two weeks in that battle,

0:38:28 > 0:38:31watching dozens and dozens of American soldiers being killed

0:38:31 > 0:38:33and wounded and being dragged towards me.

0:38:33 > 0:38:37They looked as if they'd been taken from a butcher's shop, with blood everywhere.

0:38:37 > 0:38:41In the end, I became totally mad, free,

0:38:41 > 0:38:43running around like a tormented animal.

0:38:43 > 0:38:45CLASSICAL MUSIC

0:38:51 > 0:38:54I've got to make sure that when they look at my pictures,

0:38:54 > 0:38:57if it's on a Sunday morning after breakfast,

0:38:57 > 0:38:59that it's going to hit them hard.

0:39:11 > 0:39:14The very first man I saw in that Battle of Hue

0:39:14 > 0:39:17had been hit in the face with two bullets.

0:39:17 > 0:39:19And he had a bandage around him.

0:39:19 > 0:39:24It looked like a child who had his porridge dripping down his face,

0:39:24 > 0:39:27through this bandage, but in fact it was blood and not porridge.

0:39:27 > 0:39:32Big, gooey chunks of human gore, just coming out of his face.

0:39:32 > 0:39:35I put my camera up to my face

0:39:35 > 0:39:38and he tried to move his head, this soldier,

0:39:38 > 0:39:41but his eyes were screaming at me not to photograph him,

0:39:41 > 0:39:44so I took my camera and went somewhere else.

0:39:44 > 0:39:48There was no shortage of, you know, human flesh to photograph that day.

0:39:55 > 0:39:57Our most vivid memory of the battle

0:39:57 > 0:40:02was that it was one of the most intense battles of the Vietnam War.

0:40:04 > 0:40:09Don came in and joined us and he just kind of showed up,

0:40:09 > 0:40:14but what was unique about Don is that the other correspondents

0:40:14 > 0:40:19and photographers would show up and, what I would say, snap and go.

0:40:19 > 0:40:22They would take their pictures and then be out of there.

0:40:22 > 0:40:26Don, for whatever the reason, decided to join with us,

0:40:26 > 0:40:31stay with us and for several days, he became one of us.

0:40:32 > 0:40:34On one occasion, on more than one occasion,

0:40:34 > 0:40:38went out at great risk to himself

0:40:38 > 0:40:43to assist with bringing some of our wounded casualties back

0:40:43 > 0:40:45to where we could evacuate them.

0:40:47 > 0:40:51His classic photo of the shell-shocked Marine

0:40:51 > 0:40:55is a Delta Company Marine.

0:40:55 > 0:40:59I dropped on my knees and photographed this man.

0:40:59 > 0:41:03I shot five frames, each one singularly.

0:41:03 > 0:41:06One, two, three, four, five.

0:41:08 > 0:41:11There is not one blink of an eyelid. There's not one change.

0:41:11 > 0:41:14All those negatives are exactly the same.

0:41:15 > 0:41:18I have kept up with a sizeable number

0:41:18 > 0:41:20of the Marines from Delta Company.

0:41:20 > 0:41:26We get together periodically and that individual has not surfaced,

0:41:26 > 0:41:30so I don't know his history from that day on.

0:41:35 > 0:41:37PIANO MUSIC

0:41:48 > 0:41:50DISTANT GUNFIRE

0:42:02 > 0:42:04I photographed this giant American

0:42:04 > 0:42:08who looked like an athlete, but he was throwing a hand grenade.

0:42:08 > 0:42:12Within seconds, this sniper hit this soldier in the hand

0:42:12 > 0:42:15and he had a hand like a cauliflower.

0:42:15 > 0:42:17It was all busted and bursting open.

0:42:19 > 0:42:23The picture itself almost defeats the anti-war feeling

0:42:23 > 0:42:26that I was trying to put across,

0:42:26 > 0:42:28because he looks the picture of manhood,

0:42:28 > 0:42:30like a javelin thrower at an Olympic event.

0:42:30 > 0:42:32Instead of that,

0:42:32 > 0:42:37he was throwing a hand grenade which was meant to bring death to others.

0:42:39 > 0:42:41DISTANT GUNFIRE

0:42:55 > 0:42:58The one meaningful picture I took in that battle

0:42:58 > 0:43:03was a man who had been hit in both legs, an American Marine.

0:43:03 > 0:43:05He was being supported by two friends

0:43:05 > 0:43:10and if ever I thought, at the very moment in my atheistic kind of mind,

0:43:10 > 0:43:14that I was looking at something purely religious, was of this man,

0:43:14 > 0:43:18who looked like Jesus Christ being taken down from the cross.

0:43:26 > 0:43:31When it was over, about 50% of the Marines were casualties.

0:43:33 > 0:43:38In my own case, I went in with a company of 120 Marines

0:43:38 > 0:43:41and sailors and at the end of the battle,

0:43:41 > 0:43:44there were 39 of us that were still standing.

0:43:47 > 0:43:54So you can see from just those shots how chaotic it was.

0:43:58 > 0:44:02After two weeks, I got back to the press centre in Da Nang

0:44:02 > 0:44:05and I realised I hadn't taken my clothes off, my underwear,

0:44:05 > 0:44:07anything off for two weeks.

0:44:08 > 0:44:11And, you know, I had a beard and I was haunted-looking.

0:44:11 > 0:44:14I took those clothes off and threw them straight into the waste bin,

0:44:14 > 0:44:17my underwear and everything I stood in, and had a shower.

0:44:20 > 0:44:24I think I could have easily broke down in that shower and cried,

0:44:24 > 0:44:27you know, I was so...

0:44:27 > 0:44:33..so drained and used and crushed by two weeks of seeing people dying.

0:44:34 > 0:44:39And you know, I think what I'm trying to say here is trying to be honest.

0:44:39 > 0:44:44You know, photography suddenly didn't come into the picture, even.

0:44:44 > 0:44:47It had nothing to do with photography.

0:44:47 > 0:44:52After a while, if you are that involved in that kind of situation,

0:44:52 > 0:44:55it's not about photography, it's about humanity.

0:44:55 > 0:44:58Still photographs do have this strong affinity

0:44:58 > 0:45:01with the way we remember, so...

0:45:01 > 0:45:05And the vibrations of a still photograph can be intense

0:45:05 > 0:45:07and can last for ever.

0:45:08 > 0:45:12I can remember that Don sometimes worries,

0:45:12 > 0:45:18I know, about, "Have I taken these risks? Is it worthwhile?"

0:45:18 > 0:45:20I can tell him it is

0:45:20 > 0:45:25because nobody can trace...it's like throwing a stone in a pond.

0:45:25 > 0:45:27The ripples go out and you can't say,

0:45:27 > 0:45:31"This ripple was caused by this stone," but they are.

0:45:31 > 0:45:34And I think the disenchantment with the Vietnam War in America

0:45:34 > 0:45:37is powerfully reinforced by some of the photographers,

0:45:37 > 0:45:42American photographers, including Don McCullin.

0:45:42 > 0:45:48Photography is the truth if it is being handled by a truthful person

0:45:48 > 0:45:51and I have to tell you that I have a lot of integrity.

0:45:51 > 0:45:53I would never tell a lie.

0:45:53 > 0:45:57I would never try to recreate something that wasn't real.

0:45:57 > 0:46:00I did a picture once where I did recreate something.

0:46:00 > 0:46:03It was the only time I ever did it,

0:46:03 > 0:46:07but I saw some Americans looting the body of a dead soldier,

0:46:07 > 0:46:11looking for souvenirs and mocking the body, mocking the person.

0:46:11 > 0:46:13And when they went away,

0:46:13 > 0:46:15having rifled all through his personal things,

0:46:15 > 0:46:18I brought them together and made a kind of montage

0:46:18 > 0:46:22of this pathetic possessions of this North Vietnamese soldier.

0:46:23 > 0:46:25It's the only time I've ever done it,

0:46:25 > 0:46:28but I thought I would make a statement for this soldier.

0:46:28 > 0:46:30I have no shame about doing that.

0:46:32 > 0:46:36I have this picture and I think it says what I was trying to make it say, that, you know,

0:46:36 > 0:46:41"Hear me. I am just a victim of war."

0:46:41 > 0:46:44I was trying to say this about this young man.

0:46:49 > 0:46:52We had total freedom in Vietnam.

0:46:52 > 0:46:56That, of course, made the Americans feel,

0:46:56 > 0:46:59when the war finally came to an end,

0:46:59 > 0:47:02that it was the media that let them down.

0:47:02 > 0:47:06They felt a bit upset about that, because they had given us

0:47:06 > 0:47:09every facility and all they got in exchange was, you know,

0:47:09 > 0:47:14that public opinion turned against the war in Vietnam.

0:47:15 > 0:47:20So if you go to Afghanistan now, you are totally controlled.

0:47:20 > 0:47:23They are never going to be allowed to take the kind of photographs

0:47:23 > 0:47:29I did in Vietnam of the real thing, the battle, the price of war

0:47:29 > 0:47:36and the suffering and loss, so the whole rulebook has been rewritten.

0:47:36 > 0:47:39And it doesn't come out in our favour.

0:47:44 > 0:47:46You just said it's a rotten job

0:47:46 > 0:47:49and yet you have, in fact, sought it out.

0:47:49 > 0:47:52You've sought out war and famine and misery

0:47:52 > 0:47:55in all the time I've known you, which has been a long, long time.

0:47:55 > 0:47:58Yes, I did it because I thought it was just going to be soldiers,

0:47:58 > 0:47:59and then when I got to war,

0:47:59 > 0:48:02I thought it was amazingly exciting to lay under

0:48:02 > 0:48:05a barrage of shells dropping on me, or a sniper trying to get me.

0:48:05 > 0:48:07I thought, you know, that was a challenge,

0:48:07 > 0:48:10and I have swum around with many dead bodies in canals

0:48:10 > 0:48:13to get by them when the sniper is working a ridge for me.

0:48:13 > 0:48:17I felt I wanted to put my fingers up and say, "You missed it, mate."

0:48:17 > 0:48:20And, you know, I had a very cocky attitude about warfare,

0:48:20 > 0:48:25but then I started coming in contact with the real victims

0:48:25 > 0:48:27and they are always the poor people who are not informed.

0:48:27 > 0:48:30They don't have the Mercedes-Benz to get away.

0:48:30 > 0:48:33They don't have the communication or the money to move off quick.

0:48:33 > 0:48:37They are always the very poorest people who get clobbered.

0:48:37 > 0:48:40And the amazing thing is that is where I started in my life,

0:48:40 > 0:48:42living with poor people,

0:48:42 > 0:48:45and when I am with them in those circumstances,

0:48:45 > 0:48:49I have a very close affinity and understanding of what their lot is.

0:48:51 > 0:48:55# I presume you never noticed

0:48:57 > 0:49:02# How much I really cared... #

0:49:02 > 0:49:03You are friends, aren't you?

0:49:03 > 0:49:07- You are buddies, aren't you? - Well, we're all buddies.

0:49:10 > 0:49:12Can you look where my elbow is?

0:49:12 > 0:49:16I want to see your face, if you don't mind. That's fine.

0:49:16 > 0:49:20You're OK, aren't you? You don't mind? You don't mind me?

0:49:20 > 0:49:24I'm not bullying you around, am I? OK, thanks.

0:49:24 > 0:49:26I don't want to take liberties, you know.

0:49:35 > 0:49:37I could have spent the rest of my life working

0:49:37 > 0:49:40in Aldgate and Whitechapel, it's all there.

0:49:40 > 0:49:43Photographically, it's all there.

0:49:44 > 0:49:47It is a totally, what do they call it...

0:49:50 > 0:49:55..Hogarthian kind of experience, when you are doing these pictures.

0:49:57 > 0:49:59PIANO MUSIC

0:50:08 > 0:50:10This is one of my favourite pictures and I've never,

0:50:10 > 0:50:12ever printed it before.

0:50:12 > 0:50:14Look at these men's hands.

0:50:14 > 0:50:17They are all standing up asleep, these men.

0:50:29 > 0:50:32These people used to try and put the dead eye on you.

0:50:32 > 0:50:34By that, they would try to stare you out.

0:50:34 > 0:50:38You must never flinch away like that. You must stare them out.

0:50:41 > 0:50:43This is a woman called Jean.

0:50:43 > 0:50:47She used to hang out under the arches of Liverpool Street Station.

0:50:48 > 0:50:50She used to curtsey when I went up.

0:50:50 > 0:50:52She used to say, "Hello, Captain Mark."

0:50:52 > 0:50:55I said, "Why do you keep calling me Captain Mark?"

0:50:55 > 0:50:58And she said, "Because you look like Captain Mark Phillips."

0:50:58 > 0:51:00She said, "Would you like some tea?"

0:51:00 > 0:51:02And I said, "You haven't got any milk."

0:51:02 > 0:51:05She said, "I can always get it outside of people's front doors."

0:51:05 > 0:51:08I loved her.

0:51:08 > 0:51:10In fact, what I did, I found her somewhere to live.

0:51:13 > 0:51:15This is a picture I really like.

0:51:15 > 0:51:18It's like a fallen woman from the turn of the century.

0:51:18 > 0:51:23I did this in Chapel Market on Sunday morning when I was very young.

0:51:23 > 0:51:25She's been a posh woman, this woman.

0:51:25 > 0:51:28You can tell by the handbag, tell by the clothes.

0:51:32 > 0:51:36They're all young, now. They are not old people like this.

0:51:42 > 0:51:44I think one of the best portraits I ever did

0:51:44 > 0:51:46was this man in Spitalfields Market.

0:51:46 > 0:51:49He was actually lying by the embers of an all-night fire

0:51:49 > 0:51:52that these homeless men used to congregate around.

0:51:52 > 0:51:55He sat up and looked at me full-face.

0:51:55 > 0:51:58I just held his stare and I just brought my Nikon camera up

0:51:58 > 0:52:01to my eye and took this picture and he never moved an eyelid.

0:52:01 > 0:52:04I was looking at the bluest eyes you've ever seen

0:52:04 > 0:52:06and his hair was matted.

0:52:06 > 0:52:10I felt as if I was looking at one of those Neptune images

0:52:10 > 0:52:14of a man under the sea, you know, with a trident.

0:52:14 > 0:52:16It was quite extraordinary.

0:52:18 > 0:52:20So pleased with the picture.

0:52:24 > 0:52:27MUSIC: "Blue Peter Theme"

0:52:27 > 0:52:30This year it's a matter of life and death.

0:52:30 > 0:52:32GUNSHOT

0:52:32 > 0:52:35There has been a war going on in West Africa for two years now.

0:52:35 > 0:52:38It's a civil war between the Biafrans and the Nigerians.

0:52:38 > 0:52:43We're not going to say which side is right or which side is wrong,

0:52:43 > 0:52:46except that all war is always wrong.

0:53:12 > 0:53:14I went two or three times.

0:53:14 > 0:53:17Aeroplanes that used to take in aid

0:53:17 > 0:53:21used to land on an extended road, which was their airstrip.

0:53:21 > 0:53:24It was called Uli Airstrip and you went at night

0:53:24 > 0:53:26and the Federal Government had hired,

0:53:26 > 0:53:29you know, Russian pilots and foreign pilots

0:53:29 > 0:53:31to try and shoot these planes down.

0:53:31 > 0:53:34This one is flying the other side of the mission church,

0:53:34 > 0:53:35sweeping to the right.

0:53:35 > 0:53:38Streaking the ground as they move,

0:53:38 > 0:53:40dropping incendiary bombs and fragmentation bombs

0:53:40 > 0:53:42in the places around here.

0:53:44 > 0:53:49So, going in to Uli Airstrip at night was a very hairy experience.

0:53:49 > 0:53:54There are crews out there willing to fly, despite the lack of permission

0:53:54 > 0:53:57and we will just try and fly in.

0:53:57 > 0:54:00- But you stand a good chance of being shot down?- I don't think so, no.

0:54:02 > 0:54:05They seem to have been fairly trigger-happy in the past, though.

0:54:05 > 0:54:08Anyway, we are going to try and let us see.

0:54:08 > 0:54:11Ms Ryder, why are you going as well?

0:54:12 > 0:54:16Well, because one feels very concerned, clearly,

0:54:16 > 0:54:20with anyone who is suffering any distress anywhere

0:54:20 > 0:54:25and partly because one has seen a situation in Europe,

0:54:25 > 0:54:29in the past, perhaps similar to this.

0:54:29 > 0:54:32PIANO MUSIC

0:54:51 > 0:54:54I walked into a camp which was actually an old school building

0:54:54 > 0:54:58and there were 800 dying children, standing there, waiting for me.

0:55:01 > 0:55:04You know, when you go into a camp with 800 dying children,

0:55:04 > 0:55:08some of whom are actually dropping down and dying in front of me,

0:55:08 > 0:55:12they think you're coming with some form of salvation.

0:55:12 > 0:55:16They don't realise you're coming to take pictures and get information.

0:55:16 > 0:55:20That's not what they want. You know, they want food.

0:55:35 > 0:55:39I saw this particular boy that haunts me to this day.

0:55:39 > 0:55:41He was an albino boy and he was standing, looking at me.

0:55:41 > 0:55:44Barely managing to stand on his spindly legs.

0:55:44 > 0:55:47When you're an albino in Africa,

0:55:47 > 0:55:50you're singled out all the time for bullying and God knows what.

0:55:50 > 0:55:53He was clutching a French corned beef tin,

0:55:53 > 0:55:57some previous aid gift which he'd licked the interior completely dry.

0:55:57 > 0:56:00And I thought, "I can't look at this boy." It was too much.

0:56:00 > 0:56:03He was staring at me, so I went somewhere else

0:56:03 > 0:56:07and spoke to a doctor, cos another child had collapsed

0:56:07 > 0:56:10and was dying and suddenly, somebody touched my hand

0:56:10 > 0:56:14and I looked down and it was the albino boy, he was holding my hand.

0:56:14 > 0:56:16And I thought, "Why are you doing this to me?"

0:56:16 > 0:56:20It was like he'd honed in on me and he was really paining me,

0:56:20 > 0:56:23making me feel so ashamed.

0:56:23 > 0:56:26So I gave him a barley sugar from my pocket and he went away

0:56:26 > 0:56:30and he stood at a distance, licking this barley sugar.

0:56:30 > 0:56:33There were children of two years old,

0:56:33 > 0:56:37crawling around on their stomachs with their anus hanging out.

0:56:37 > 0:56:41I've never seen anything so terrible in all my life,

0:56:41 > 0:56:44the inside of their whole backside

0:56:44 > 0:56:48had kind of invertedly kind of suddenly fell out

0:56:48 > 0:56:51and they were dragging themselves around

0:56:51 > 0:56:53with this inside-out situation of their bottoms,

0:56:53 > 0:56:56with flies hanging on as they crawled.

0:56:56 > 0:57:00I thought, this was worse than any inferno of insanity

0:57:00 > 0:57:03that you could ever experience or see in your life.

0:57:03 > 0:57:06It wasn't real, it was so horrible, so shocking.

0:57:07 > 0:57:12And, you know, I almost become, well, I almost became paralysed.

0:57:12 > 0:57:14I was so shocked.

0:57:14 > 0:57:18I thought, "Take your mind off it. Take some pictures."

0:57:18 > 0:57:21They said, "There's a girl you must see."

0:57:21 > 0:57:24They said, "Her name is Patience."

0:57:24 > 0:57:27They brought her in and she was completely naked.

0:57:27 > 0:57:29She was 16 years of age,

0:57:29 > 0:57:32days, if not one or two days, away from death.

0:57:32 > 0:57:34And I thought, "How am I going to do this?"

0:57:34 > 0:57:39And they sat her down and I asked the nurse

0:57:39 > 0:57:44if she would place her hands over the lower part of her body,

0:57:44 > 0:57:46cos I thought, you know,

0:57:46 > 0:57:47"If I'm going to do this picture

0:57:47 > 0:57:49"to show this terrible, shocking creature,

0:57:49 > 0:57:53"I'm going to do it with as much dignity as I can rustle up

0:57:53 > 0:57:56"and at least not take advantage of her nakedness."

0:58:02 > 0:58:05You've never seen a more dignified person, you know,

0:58:05 > 0:58:07you know, inches away from death.

0:58:08 > 0:58:11PIANO MUSIC

0:58:17 > 0:58:22And I remember one day seeing a woman trying to feed a child at the breast.

0:58:22 > 0:58:26There was nothing for the child at the breast.

0:58:26 > 0:58:29And I saw some writing at the back, in the far distance.

0:58:29 > 0:58:33And after I'd photographed the woman, who, believe it or not,

0:58:33 > 0:58:36was only 24 years of age and she looked like 65,

0:58:36 > 0:58:39I went and read the writing in the far distance on the wall

0:58:39 > 0:58:43and it had on the wall, "Today I am reborn."

0:58:47 > 0:58:53And that little inscription took my legs away from me.

0:58:53 > 0:58:55You know, you can go through so much as a photographer,

0:58:55 > 0:58:58you put yourself there.

0:58:58 > 0:59:01You don't ask, you know, you don't ask why you are there.

0:59:01 > 0:59:04You go there and the same time you put yourself there.

0:59:04 > 0:59:06You could refuse if you want.

0:59:06 > 0:59:09I went there, but when I went there, I photographed these people

0:59:09 > 0:59:14to show they had more dignity than most of us will ever dream of,

0:59:14 > 0:59:16that being in the last throes of their life.

0:59:28 > 0:59:32His awareness of the futility of it,

0:59:32 > 0:59:39as well as the direct sight of these people dying on their feet...

0:59:41 > 0:59:43..moved him enormously.

0:59:43 > 0:59:45He always had empathy, of course,

0:59:45 > 0:59:49with the soldier who was shot, but here he was looking at civilians.

0:59:49 > 0:59:53Men and women without any clue about what was going on,

0:59:53 > 0:59:55dying because of the ambitions

0:59:55 > 0:59:58of some of the power-hungry people in the country.

1:00:00 > 1:00:04MUSIC: "Free Bird" by Lynyrd Skynyrd

1:00:18 > 1:00:24# If I leave here tomorrow

1:00:26 > 1:00:29# Would you still remember me?

1:00:33 > 1:00:39# I must be travelling on now... #

1:00:40 > 1:00:44I spent my whole life travelling the world. I was really on the move.

1:00:51 > 1:00:54You know, I was constantly at London Airport

1:00:54 > 1:00:57and waving goodbye to my little family.

1:00:58 > 1:01:01# And this bird shall never change... #

1:01:09 > 1:01:11I was very eager, as always,

1:01:11 > 1:01:14and ambitious to get to the front of the fighting.

1:01:14 > 1:01:16And the next thing I know,

1:01:16 > 1:01:18we walked into an ambush and all hell broke loose.

1:01:18 > 1:01:20GUNFIRE

1:01:20 > 1:01:25There was tremendous, heavy AK-47 fire.

1:01:25 > 1:01:28And I immediately ran down into the side of the road,

1:01:28 > 1:01:30which is like a culvert.

1:01:34 > 1:01:37And I thought, "I'm going to get my tail out of here."

1:01:37 > 1:01:40Because, you know, what does one picture mean of a soldier under fire

1:01:40 > 1:01:42if it's going to cost you your life?

1:01:42 > 1:01:45For the first time, my nerve went.

1:01:45 > 1:01:47I knelt behind a tube and there was an almighty explosion.

1:01:47 > 1:01:49I was blown across the road.

1:01:49 > 1:01:52I felt this terrible burning sensation in my legs

1:01:52 > 1:01:54and everywhere from the waist downwards.

1:01:54 > 1:01:58And all my past seemed to come before me and I thought, "This is it. I'm going to die."

1:01:58 > 1:02:01So I crawled away for about 200 yards,

1:02:01 > 1:02:03only to be put on the back of a truck,

1:02:03 > 1:02:05having been stabbed with a morphine injection.

1:02:05 > 1:02:07And then they filled the lorry up

1:02:07 > 1:02:10with about half a dozen soldiers who were wounded.

1:02:10 > 1:02:13I thought, "I'm going to take my mind off my own pain

1:02:13 > 1:02:16"and I'm going to photograph what's going on in this truck."

1:02:17 > 1:02:20They put the man on the truck right next to me

1:02:20 > 1:02:23who took the full brunt of the mortar bomb that hit me,

1:02:23 > 1:02:26but he got, unfortunately, all of it in his chest and stomach.

1:02:26 > 1:02:30And he kept sitting up and trying to fight people holding him down.

1:02:30 > 1:02:32He was fighting.

1:02:32 > 1:02:35And he died on the way back in the truck to the hospital,

1:02:35 > 1:02:37because I sat up and photographed him.

1:02:37 > 1:02:41And I said, "I don't want you to take any more risks."

1:02:41 > 1:02:44They took the risks as they judged fit

1:02:44 > 1:02:47because they were independently-minded.

1:02:47 > 1:02:50And I secretly rejoiced that they brought back what they did,

1:02:50 > 1:02:54but nonetheless, the next time and the next time

1:02:54 > 1:02:56and the next time, you thought,

1:02:56 > 1:03:01"Pray to God that they are not playing Russian roulette with their own lives."

1:03:08 > 1:03:10LOUD EXPLOSION

1:03:14 > 1:03:18It was strange for me to get on an aeroplane and fly to Belfast,

1:03:18 > 1:03:22drive to Londonderry, check into the hotel.

1:03:23 > 1:03:25And you could guarantee that once the pubs turned out

1:03:25 > 1:03:27at about 3-something in the afternoon,

1:03:27 > 1:03:29that there you braced yourself

1:03:29 > 1:03:31and you knew exactly where it would be.

1:03:31 > 1:03:35It was almost like a football match. You knew where the action would be.

1:03:35 > 1:03:37SHOUTING AND SCREAMING

1:03:37 > 1:03:40It was bricks and bottles and stones

1:03:40 > 1:03:43coming at the soldiers, who then fired rubber bullets

1:03:43 > 1:03:48and CS gas back, and I used to be gassed on a regular basis.

1:03:48 > 1:03:51But from a photographer's point of view, you couldn't miss.

1:04:01 > 1:04:04It was like a theatre, really. It was like a play.

1:04:04 > 1:04:08You knew the plot, you'd seen it many times before.

1:04:29 > 1:04:33This particular day, I knew they were going to charge

1:04:33 > 1:04:36and I was standing there with my short telephoto lens

1:04:36 > 1:04:39and I took this picture of the "let's go and get them".

1:04:41 > 1:04:45I wasn't totally aware that in the shop doorway by this taxi company

1:04:45 > 1:04:49was a woman standing there, holding her mouth with total shock.

1:04:51 > 1:04:54That made my picture much more poignant, really.

1:05:22 > 1:05:24I came upon this highway

1:05:24 > 1:05:28and saw these dying soldiers in the road, and I was with a very

1:05:28 > 1:05:32nice friend of mine called Michael Nicholson, who was an ITV reporter.

1:05:32 > 1:05:36Their wounds were kind of melting into the tar itself on the road.

1:05:36 > 1:05:38So hot.

1:05:38 > 1:05:41We prised them off the road and we draped them

1:05:41 > 1:05:44across the bonnet of his Jeep.

1:05:44 > 1:05:46And I stood on the front of it and kind of leaned on them

1:05:46 > 1:05:51and we drove them back to a first aid medical centre for the army.

1:05:51 > 1:05:55And we went back the next morning to see how they were, but they had died.

1:06:03 > 1:06:07And I did lots of pictures of men coming in on that road

1:06:07 > 1:06:09with pieces of cardboard around their feet,

1:06:09 > 1:06:12because they threw their boots away

1:06:12 > 1:06:14and, of course, they didn't last long on that road.

1:06:17 > 1:06:20The whole thing was the most appalling shambles.

1:06:20 > 1:06:23It was like the retreat from Moscow. Terrible disarray.

1:06:26 > 1:06:29And so, when the Sunday Times published these pictures,

1:06:29 > 1:06:33the South Vietnamese Government put me on a blacklist,

1:06:33 > 1:06:35which I never thought for one minute existed.

1:06:39 > 1:06:42I was building this reputation as a war photographer,

1:06:42 > 1:06:44which today I really detest.

1:06:44 > 1:06:46I worked for it and then,

1:06:46 > 1:06:50when I suddenly felt that I was being acclaimed as a war photographer,

1:06:50 > 1:06:53suddenly I felt uncomfortable and dirty.

1:06:53 > 1:06:55I felt being called a war photographer

1:06:55 > 1:06:57was like being called a mercenary.

1:07:08 > 1:07:12Looking back on all that, I thought my family suffered very badly.

1:07:12 > 1:07:15I was always waving goodbye to them and one wonders in their mind,

1:07:15 > 1:07:19were they ever thinking, "Will we ever see this strange man again,

1:07:19 > 1:07:21"who is supposed to be our father?"

1:07:23 > 1:07:26But, you know, I didn't want to weaken my strength

1:07:26 > 1:07:29by thinking in a sentimental way.

1:07:29 > 1:07:33I wanted to do my job and then hopefully go home to them,

1:07:33 > 1:07:36but it was very selfish, now I look back on it.

1:07:36 > 1:07:38And it eventually ruined by marriage.

1:08:09 > 1:08:11GUNFIRE

1:08:13 > 1:08:16In Beirut's Christian stronghold,

1:08:16 > 1:08:21Phalangist militiamen poured fire on neighbouring areas

1:08:21 > 1:08:23held by Muslim leftists

1:08:23 > 1:08:26and allies from the more extreme Palestinian guerrilla group.

1:08:26 > 1:08:29Every day you had a twist in the Lebanon.

1:08:29 > 1:08:34There is always something ghastly and new to kind of look at.

1:08:34 > 1:08:37I did this photograph of all these Christians,

1:08:37 > 1:08:40all proudly showing their manly side to them.

1:08:41 > 1:08:46And the audacity was that they were wearing Christian crosses

1:08:46 > 1:08:48and, you know, you think...

1:08:48 > 1:08:52you expect more from Christianity

1:08:52 > 1:08:55if you're displaying it in such a way than some of the terrible things

1:08:55 > 1:08:58that they did in the name of Christianity.

1:08:58 > 1:09:02On the political front, the situation still appears to be stalemate.

1:09:02 > 1:09:05Efforts to implement a ceasefire clearly having failed

1:09:05 > 1:09:08and parliament's attempts to hold a session...

1:09:08 > 1:09:12The Palestinian areas, the kind of east side of Beirut,

1:09:12 > 1:09:16right inside the Christian heartland.

1:09:17 > 1:09:23And it was just, it was murder from the word go.

1:09:23 > 1:09:25MUSIC

1:09:29 > 1:09:33They started, you know, collecting prisoners.

1:09:33 > 1:09:34It all happened so quickly.

1:09:36 > 1:09:40I went to a house where I could hear a lot of women and children screaming.

1:09:40 > 1:09:42A Christian was bringing the women and children down

1:09:42 > 1:09:47the side of this stairwell and I could see two Palestinian young men

1:09:47 > 1:09:51with their hands up, in the left-hand side of the stairwell.

1:09:53 > 1:09:57The moment the women went out of the house,

1:09:57 > 1:10:00the man next to me, and I was very close, you know,

1:10:00 > 1:10:04very close, started opening up and killing these people in cold blood, immediately.

1:10:04 > 1:10:08And they went down in a hail of bullets and blood, all up the wall.

1:10:10 > 1:10:13And I went round the back of the stairwell, another stairwell,

1:10:13 > 1:10:16and try to get a grip of myself, cos I was so shocked.

1:10:16 > 1:10:18I couldn't believe what I had just seen.

1:10:19 > 1:10:21I came out of the building

1:10:21 > 1:10:24and there was another Christian gunman who had the women and children

1:10:24 > 1:10:27and he said, "By the way, if I see you taking any pictures,

1:10:27 > 1:10:30"I am going to kill you myself. Get out of here."

1:10:33 > 1:10:35Everywhere I went that day,

1:10:35 > 1:10:38I could see another person being murdered in front of me.

1:10:38 > 1:10:42Of course, what I did eventually was get the picture of the man

1:10:42 > 1:10:45playing the lute over the dead Palestinian girl's body.

1:10:49 > 1:10:53They were so angry about it when it was published that they said

1:10:53 > 1:10:57if they ever caught the man who took the picture, they would kill him.

1:11:02 > 1:11:04In a way, it was almost an honour

1:11:04 > 1:11:06that they wanted to kill me for taking the picture.

1:11:11 > 1:11:13The 26-storey Holiday Inn is burning.

1:11:13 > 1:11:16The third of a trio of five-star hotels

1:11:16 > 1:11:18to be caught in the firing line.

1:11:18 > 1:11:20This is the courtyard of the Hilton Hotel

1:11:20 > 1:11:24and it was here that the fighting took place all last night.

1:11:24 > 1:11:31When the Islamics overwhelmed part of the Christian area where I was,

1:11:31 > 1:11:36they were actually ensconced in the Hilton Hotel and when they got in,

1:11:36 > 1:11:38the Christians that they'd captured in there,

1:11:38 > 1:11:41they took them to the top floor and they mutilated them

1:11:41 > 1:11:46in a manly sense, by cutting off part of them, and they threw them,

1:11:46 > 1:11:48alive, off the top of the building.

1:11:50 > 1:11:53When it gets down to that kind of hatred,

1:11:53 > 1:11:56it becomes a form of insanity.

1:11:56 > 1:12:01It goes beyond your understanding of anything. Anything.

1:12:09 > 1:12:13I don't know how he did it. He had a very sensitive conscience.

1:12:13 > 1:12:16I would often call him "the conscience with a camera".

1:12:16 > 1:12:21He had a very sensitive feel for other people's suffering,

1:12:21 > 1:12:25which also gave him the impetus to feel,

1:12:25 > 1:12:29"I can make people wake up to what is really going on here".

1:12:29 > 1:12:32So the sensitivity which might have made him

1:12:32 > 1:12:37recoil from the images was allied to this conscience of his which says,

1:12:37 > 1:12:41"I've got to get this story. It can only be told by photographs."

1:12:41 > 1:12:47His journalism, which is best when that cold eye of his,

1:12:47 > 1:12:52if you like, was informed by the warmth of his empathy,

1:12:52 > 1:12:57and by the text, which amplified the image which you could see.

1:12:57 > 1:13:00It's an awful question to ask you, but do you think the images you take

1:13:00 > 1:13:04of horror, of war, actually make anybody change their mind about it?

1:13:04 > 1:13:07Actually, to be honest, I don't think they have.

1:13:07 > 1:13:09I've been photographing war for about 16 years

1:13:09 > 1:13:11and I've got very disillusioned.

1:13:11 > 1:13:14And I've just had an exhibition

1:13:14 > 1:13:17and the exhibition was mostly attended by very young people

1:13:17 > 1:13:20and judging by the letters that I have received, which were many,

1:13:20 > 1:13:23the people who wrote to me were very young people

1:13:23 > 1:13:25and they are the people who care about war.

1:13:25 > 1:13:27I think the rest of us, the middle-aged,

1:13:27 > 1:13:32I hate to say this, people, they've had war and they've had enough of it.

1:13:32 > 1:13:35I think they are sick about hearing about it now.

1:13:35 > 1:13:37They think there is no solution, but the young people,

1:13:37 > 1:13:39who are tomorrow's people,

1:13:39 > 1:13:42they are more interested about trying to do something about it.

1:13:42 > 1:13:45They feel ashamed of it and can't understand it.

1:13:45 > 1:13:48I mean, why don't you settle for the easy life and earn 500 quid

1:13:48 > 1:13:51a day taking pictures of ladies wearing bras and things?

1:13:51 > 1:13:55- Or not wearing bras?- I would probably get a heart attack.

1:13:55 > 1:13:57LAUGHTER

1:13:58 > 1:14:00Did you like this one? The sulky lover?

1:14:02 > 1:14:04You would be if you had a face like that against you.

1:14:04 > 1:14:06THEY LAUGH

1:14:09 > 1:14:13This is one of my favourite pictures. I don't have many favourites.

1:14:13 > 1:14:16It's a classic example of intrusion, of course,

1:14:16 > 1:14:19but it's just showing the English.

1:14:19 > 1:14:22The deckchairs says it all, doesn't it?

1:14:22 > 1:14:25One thing about England, you can guarantee to find

1:14:25 > 1:14:28all kinds of kind of crazy people in the summer.

1:14:30 > 1:14:34There's not, I don't think there is a country quite like this country

1:14:34 > 1:14:37for the diversities of people's manifestations.

1:14:37 > 1:14:38You know, eccentrics.

1:14:38 > 1:14:41You can get them by the bus-load here in England. I love it.

1:14:41 > 1:14:43MUSIC: "This Is England" by The Clash

1:14:43 > 1:14:47# I hear a gang fire on a human factory farm

1:14:47 > 1:14:51# Are they howling out or doing somebody harm?

1:14:54 > 1:14:58# On a catwalk jungle somebody grabbed my arm

1:15:00 > 1:15:04# A voice spoke so cold, it matched the weapon in her palm

1:15:07 > 1:15:09# This is England

1:15:09 > 1:15:12# This knife of Sheffield steel

1:15:12 > 1:15:15# This is England

1:15:15 > 1:15:18# This is how we feel

1:15:34 > 1:15:38# This is England... #

1:15:59 > 1:16:02When the print unions sabotaged the Sunday Times,

1:16:02 > 1:16:04they basically killed the paper.

1:16:04 > 1:16:07The Thomson Organisation said, "We can't go on like this.

1:16:07 > 1:16:12"We can't have the paper wrecked not only physically but economically."

1:16:12 > 1:16:15So they put the paper up for sale.

1:16:17 > 1:16:19And they had a perception, a judgement,

1:16:19 > 1:16:24that Rupert Murdoch, with his history of being pretty tough,

1:16:24 > 1:16:27would be better able to control the print unions.

1:16:28 > 1:16:32And in some respects, that was a fair judgement.

1:16:32 > 1:16:34You've had enough photographs. I think we really...

1:16:34 > 1:16:36- And with Mr Evans.- Mr Evans.

1:16:36 > 1:16:41And though he made promises about the papers would maintain

1:16:41 > 1:16:44their independence, he did not keep them.

1:16:44 > 1:16:50And this, of course, was very, very bad news for British journalism

1:16:50 > 1:16:54but it was also bad news, individually, for Don McCullin.

1:16:54 > 1:16:56When Murdoch took over the Sunday Times

1:16:56 > 1:16:59and Harold Evans went over to the Times newspaper,

1:16:59 > 1:17:03we all felt that, you know, we were looking at the beginning of the end.

1:17:03 > 1:17:07And I had had 18 fantastic years there.

1:17:07 > 1:17:12The precious independence that he'd had and the ability to go

1:17:12 > 1:17:16and tell an unvarnished truth through the medium of film

1:17:16 > 1:17:20was now at risk, and so it proved to be.

1:17:26 > 1:17:29MUSIC

1:17:43 > 1:17:46The Falklands War suddenly appeared on the horizon and I thought,

1:17:46 > 1:17:51"I want to be in on this, because for the first time in my life,

1:17:51 > 1:17:55"I'm going to be in a big, international war with British soldiers."

1:17:55 > 1:17:58You know, I thought I was the natural person

1:17:58 > 1:18:00and to my astonishment, I was barred.

1:18:00 > 1:18:03It didn't happen.

1:18:03 > 1:18:08I was left behind and I was utterly miserable and devastated.

1:18:10 > 1:18:14It was an appalling decision to keep Don McCullin off the boat,

1:18:14 > 1:18:17creating the excuse that boat was full.

1:18:19 > 1:18:23It seemed to be saying, "Your photography is so honest,

1:18:23 > 1:18:27"so searing, so implicit with meaning, we can't take the risk

1:18:27 > 1:18:31"of you accessing freedom of expression."

1:18:31 > 1:18:34I thought it was the most appalling decision

1:18:34 > 1:18:37and its effect on him was to seem to say,

1:18:37 > 1:18:40"You've spent your life documenting things

1:18:40 > 1:18:43"we don't think you should ever have documented,"

1:18:43 > 1:18:48which, of course, was saying, "Why have you bothered?

1:18:48 > 1:18:52"Why have you bothered to risk your life to try and tell the truth?"

1:18:56 > 1:18:59That's the reason I went back to Lebanon,

1:18:59 > 1:19:01because I didn't go to the Falklands.

1:19:01 > 1:19:04The Lebanon War was erupting at the same time.

1:19:04 > 1:19:07Cos, you know, I can always go somewhere else.

1:19:07 > 1:19:09If I couldn't go to this war, I could go to another war, you know.

1:19:09 > 1:19:14Cos I was suffering from what you become, a war junkie, really.

1:19:14 > 1:19:16I was suffering from that problem, you know.

1:19:16 > 1:19:22The massacres were carried out by an elite special security formation

1:19:22 > 1:19:25of the Lebanese Christian Phalange.

1:19:25 > 1:19:28The operation was, at all stages,

1:19:28 > 1:19:31under direct control of senior Phalange commanders.

1:19:31 > 1:19:34During that early stage of the massacre at Shatila Camp,

1:19:34 > 1:19:40the Israeli forces fired a constant barrage of flares

1:19:40 > 1:19:43to light up the camp for the Phalange forces.

1:19:44 > 1:19:46CLASSICAL MUSIC

1:20:43 > 1:20:45One morning in the hotel, very early,

1:20:45 > 1:20:49I had a call from someone saying, "Are you Mr McCullin?" I said yes.

1:20:49 > 1:20:52They said, "Will you come down to the lobby?

1:20:52 > 1:20:56"We want to take you to the hospital at Sabra and Shatila."

1:20:58 > 1:21:01They said, "About 21 people have been killed in this hospital,

1:21:01 > 1:21:03"but we are not interested in that.

1:21:03 > 1:21:07"We want to show you the worst aspect of what has happened here today."

1:21:07 > 1:21:10They took me upstairs to the children's department

1:21:10 > 1:21:13of the insane side of the hospital

1:21:13 > 1:21:16and to my astonishment, there was one nurse who had stayed

1:21:16 > 1:21:20for five days during this shelling and the others had fled the hospital.

1:21:25 > 1:21:28And she showed me around and I couldn't believe

1:21:28 > 1:21:30what I was looking at.

1:21:30 > 1:21:33She said, "We've had to tie the children to the beds,"

1:21:33 > 1:21:35she said, "because we couldn't cope.

1:21:35 > 1:21:38"They would have got away and been injured."

1:21:38 > 1:21:40And there were children tied to the beds,

1:21:40 > 1:21:43covered in flies, in a heat you wouldn't understand.

1:21:45 > 1:21:48So these children were lying in buckets of their own filth,

1:21:48 > 1:21:50starving hungry, dying of thirst.

1:21:52 > 1:21:54MUSIC

1:22:06 > 1:22:09And she said, "There is a room with more children.

1:22:09 > 1:22:13"I've had to lock them in the room and they are blind and insane,"

1:22:13 > 1:22:17and she said, "They're only two years old, some of them."

1:22:17 > 1:22:19And she opened the door of this room

1:22:19 > 1:22:23and the heat that came out of it, you could've roasted a chicken in it.

1:22:23 > 1:22:26And out swam, in their own filth and mess,

1:22:26 > 1:22:29they were like blind rats, these children.

1:22:32 > 1:22:35I don't think I was ever more ashamed of humanity.

1:22:35 > 1:22:40I thought, "If this is what people can do in the name of, you know,

1:22:40 > 1:22:43"Christianity or whatever, you know..."

1:22:43 > 1:22:46Because the war was being conducted against the Christians,

1:22:46 > 1:22:51or the Christians were fighting back and the Jews were shelling,

1:22:51 > 1:22:55I mean, the whole thing was about religious madness.

1:22:55 > 1:22:57Who was paying the price?

1:22:57 > 1:23:02I wandered away. I was in deep shock and I thought, "I'm confused, here.

1:23:02 > 1:23:09"Why am I here? What has this got to do with my original concept of being a photographer?"

1:23:12 > 1:23:15And I wandered into another room just to get away

1:23:15 > 1:23:18from all this horrible, horrible stuff.

1:23:18 > 1:23:20And I saw a child sitting,

1:23:20 > 1:23:24playing with bits of debris as if he had Lego.

1:23:29 > 1:23:32I think it was a day of reckoning for me,

1:23:32 > 1:23:35because I don't think I could have ever touched on more tragedy,

1:23:35 > 1:23:38all under one roof, than what I saw at that hospital that day.

1:23:38 > 1:23:40I've never forgotten it.

1:23:47 > 1:23:50The sad thing about these days that I never forget

1:23:50 > 1:23:54is that they come back, on a regular basis,

1:23:54 > 1:23:57as fresh as it was happening today, to haunt me.

1:24:08 > 1:24:11There is nothing so powerful as reporting.

1:24:11 > 1:24:15The government can't find out the things that reporters can.

1:24:15 > 1:24:18Certainly, many governments wish to suppress

1:24:18 > 1:24:22what can be found out, foreign governments and sometimes our own.

1:24:22 > 1:24:24So this is a very,

1:24:24 > 1:24:28very important quality of Don's impulses,

1:24:28 > 1:24:32which is the passion to report what is happening

1:24:32 > 1:24:35and insofar as that has diminished today,

1:24:35 > 1:24:37we've lost a huge amount

1:24:37 > 1:24:40and I think there is still a tremendous appetite

1:24:40 > 1:24:43for really good photojournalism, really good reporting.

1:24:44 > 1:24:47Mr Rupert Murdoch, on budget day,

1:24:47 > 1:24:51asked me to resign as Editor of the Times. I refused.

1:24:52 > 1:24:54At no time have the independent

1:24:54 > 1:24:57national directors sought my resignation.

1:25:00 > 1:25:03But in the circumstances, the differences between me

1:25:03 > 1:25:05and Mr Murdoch should not be prolonged.

1:25:06 > 1:25:11I am therefore resigning tonight as the Editor of the Times.

1:25:11 > 1:25:15The reason I got pushed out of the Sunday Times was simple, actually.

1:25:15 > 1:25:16They had brought a new editor in.

1:25:16 > 1:25:19A man called Andrew Neil, who was very ambitious,

1:25:19 > 1:25:22and quite, you know, he knew what he wanted.

1:25:22 > 1:25:26Most new editors like to kick off with a new bunch of people

1:25:26 > 1:25:30under them, but he did say that there would be no more

1:25:30 > 1:25:33wars in the magazine and in fact, it would be a magazine

1:25:33 > 1:25:38based on life and leisure, you know, to attract the ads.

1:25:38 > 1:25:42So I was one of the first casualties,

1:25:42 > 1:25:45because when I went and photographed wars and Africa

1:25:45 > 1:25:47and dying and starving children,

1:25:47 > 1:25:52I was going to make sure that I got the strongest images.

1:25:52 > 1:25:54They didn't always sit well in a magazine

1:25:54 > 1:25:58that was trying to sell you, you know, cars and luxury.

1:25:58 > 1:26:01So I was definitely on the way out by that stage.

1:26:30 > 1:26:32I asked him about the occasion he was invited to

1:26:32 > 1:26:36an execution in Saigon and as I recall,

1:26:36 > 1:26:39he went to the prison where the execution was going to take place

1:26:39 > 1:26:43and turned back and refused to take the photograph.

1:26:43 > 1:26:47It was because of his really powerful humanitarian impulses,

1:26:47 > 1:26:51he didn't want to legitimise murder in any way.

1:26:51 > 1:26:55Since, actually, his entire canon of photography

1:26:55 > 1:26:58is to delegitimise violence and say,

1:26:58 > 1:27:02"Look, these are the consequences of your political decision.

1:27:02 > 1:27:05"These are the consequences of your greed.

1:27:05 > 1:27:08"These are the consequences of your carelessness.

1:27:08 > 1:27:10"Look on these and think again."

1:27:10 > 1:27:15I think his entire impulse, a humanitarian photographer

1:27:15 > 1:27:20with tremendous technical skill, amounting to genius, in my view.

1:27:22 > 1:27:24MUSIC

1:27:27 > 1:27:29I'm nearly 75 years of age now.

1:27:29 > 1:27:33I still have some energy left, not a lot,

1:27:33 > 1:27:37but I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to eradicate,

1:27:37 > 1:27:40you know, the things we've been talking about.

1:27:40 > 1:27:42I'm just going to photograph the landscape,

1:27:42 > 1:27:46and the English landscape, to me, is my heaven.

1:27:46 > 1:27:48My form of heaven.

1:27:50 > 1:27:54The one thing that upsets me about it is, like all other things,

1:27:54 > 1:27:57there is always a threat surrounding the things you love.

1:27:57 > 1:28:00When I hear a chainsaw in the distance, you know,

1:28:00 > 1:28:02I think a tree is dying.

1:28:02 > 1:28:05When I hear shooting, when there is pheasant shooting,

1:28:05 > 1:28:08I think there's going to be some blood somewhere.

1:28:08 > 1:28:11The sound of gunfire immediately switches on

1:28:11 > 1:28:14another part of my nervous system.

1:28:18 > 1:28:22So I feel, as much as you try to run away from these things,

1:28:22 > 1:28:25someone always presses a button and says, you know,

1:28:25 > 1:28:29"Here is a reminder of, you know, what you used to do."

1:31:14 > 1:31:16Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd