0:00:02 > 0:00:07This programme contains some strong language
0:00:09 > 0:00:11THEY GREET EACH OTHER
0:00:15 > 0:00:17Good to see you, good to see you.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19Look here now, why you do project for the BBC?
0:00:19 > 0:00:21What the programme about? Where does it come from?
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Well, it's a documentary called Imagine.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26- Oh.- They've done a whole bunch of subjects,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29they've done one on Howard Jacobson who won the Booker.
0:00:29 > 0:00:30They did one on Beyonce.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33- Eh!- When I tell people, "Yeah, Howard Jacobson,"
0:00:33 > 0:00:35they're like, "Yeah, yeah."
0:00:35 > 0:00:37- And I go, "Beyonce." - BOTH:- "Ooh!"
0:00:44 > 0:00:45Marlon James was six years old
0:00:45 > 0:00:50and living on the outskirts of Kingston, Jamaica, when one evening,
0:00:50 > 0:00:51on the other side of town,
0:00:51 > 0:00:55seven gunmen stormed a house and started to shoot.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00- NEWSREADER:- Entertainer and reggae star Bob Marley, Rita Marley,
0:01:00 > 0:01:02and the manager of the Wailers, Don Taylor, are now patients
0:01:02 > 0:01:06in the University Hospital after receiving gunshot wounds
0:01:06 > 0:01:09during a shooting incident which took place at Marley's home
0:01:09 > 0:01:12at 56 Hope Road tonight.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17"Short, stumpy manager running right into it.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19"Chatting shit. Monkey business.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22"Bam-bam-bam-bam-bam-bam from Josey gun.
0:01:22 > 0:01:23"Josey riddled him thigh.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26"Shower him back. He scream and I scream,
0:01:26 > 0:01:29"and all you say is Selassie I Jah Rastafari.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31"And all fall down.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34"So you get him? You get him?
0:01:34 > 0:01:36"You get him? Yeah."
0:01:40 > 0:01:43The gunmen who tried to murder Bob Marley were never caught,
0:01:43 > 0:01:47and became little more than the footnote to one of the most
0:01:47 > 0:01:50shocking, blatant, and violent episodes in Jamaica's history.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55They are the starting point for James's novel -
0:01:55 > 0:01:57A Brief History Of Seven Killings.
0:01:58 > 0:02:03It is neither brief, nor does it stop at seven killings.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06Marlon actually has a real gift for violence.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11He has an almost lyrical quality where he will convey violence
0:02:11 > 0:02:15as very beautiful, while, at the same time, being very horrible.
0:02:17 > 0:02:22Characters in James's novel are raped, executed, buried alive.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26It begins with the gang wars of Kingston
0:02:26 > 0:02:29and ends with the crack epidemic in the USA.
0:02:29 > 0:02:34There are brutal ghetto dons, underhand CIA operatives
0:02:34 > 0:02:36and ruthless druglords.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40Marlon James never spares the reader.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44And some can't stomach his uncompromising violence,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47especially when they discover how much of it is true.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51You have to risk it.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53You have to risk sentimentality when you're writing love.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56You have to risk pornography when you're writing sex.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00You have to come to that point and just not sort of tumble over.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06His novels draw from the seam of violence that runs through
0:03:06 > 0:03:10Jamaica's past, from slavery to contemporary gangland murder.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15But it was something else that made it impossible for him to stay.
0:03:16 > 0:03:18"I was on borrowed time.
0:03:18 > 0:03:20"Whether it was in a plane or a coffin,
0:03:20 > 0:03:22"I knew I had to get out of Jamaica."
0:03:31 > 0:03:33APPLAUSE
0:03:33 > 0:03:37The winner of this year's Booker Prize is Marlon James.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39CHEERING
0:03:43 > 0:03:46The night Marlon James won the Man Booker Prize,
0:03:46 > 0:03:50he went on social media and posted a two-word message.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01So, Booker, what's the shape of that thing?
0:04:01 > 0:04:03It's like a big plastic square.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05You want me to draw it?
0:04:05 > 0:04:07- Draw it.- If you remember it.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10The judges were unanimous when they chose their winner.
0:04:10 > 0:04:14All the more surprising as Marlon's first novel was rejected
0:04:14 > 0:04:16countless times.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18At one point, he gave up the idea of being an author,
0:04:18 > 0:04:21and destroyed all his manuscripts.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24- Oh, shit, it's their menu! - THEY LAUGH
0:04:24 > 0:04:25I think they'll let us have a menu.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33Marlon James didn't write his Jamaican epic in his homeland,
0:04:33 > 0:04:37he wrote it here in the American Midwestern state of Minnesota,
0:04:37 > 0:04:40where he is now a Professor of Creative Writing
0:04:40 > 0:04:41at McAlester College.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45What was the impact in Jamaica, actually, of the book?
0:04:45 > 0:04:47Because, obviously, it's a book which is,
0:04:47 > 0:04:49in a kind of critical period in Jamaican history,
0:04:49 > 0:04:52it's quite contentious in lots of ways.
0:04:52 > 0:04:53I think it was complicated.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57I think people, for the most part, were very happy, but I think
0:04:57 > 0:05:02it was also a very critical novel and I think there are Jamaicans
0:05:02 > 0:05:05who believe anything from Jamaica should always just be praising,
0:05:05 > 0:05:07or beautiful beaches and wonderful people.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09And it's not doing any of that.
0:05:09 > 0:05:15And I think there's still a sense of, from some people,
0:05:15 > 0:05:16of me being a muckraker.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24In his novel, Marlon takes liberties with the history that Jamaica
0:05:24 > 0:05:25would rather forget.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29He trawls the murky corners of Kingston's underworld
0:05:29 > 0:05:32for his relentlessly graphic and brutal fiction...
0:05:33 > 0:05:37..peopled with some of the nastiest characters you'll ever come across,
0:05:37 > 0:05:41sharing their grim endeavours in dense patois.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47"Two guns, one in each hand like an outlaw, for real.
0:05:47 > 0:05:52"Josey Wales stamps slow into the dark, to the crack house.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56"A man run past to the right, Josey run out and shout, 'Pussyhole!'
0:05:56 > 0:06:00"a left gun blasts the chunk off the top of him head.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03"Josey walk up to the man and he still firing and firing,
0:06:03 > 0:06:05"until both gun click.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08"Empty. He still pulling the trigger.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11"To a click, click, click."
0:06:13 > 0:06:15Say I just dwell on violence and only violence,
0:06:15 > 0:06:19then it becomes a kind of pornography of violence.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22And then you have the option to be desensitised to it.
0:06:22 > 0:06:24You have the option to be numb to it.
0:06:24 > 0:06:26And I don't think you should have that option.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30"You know why them call me funny boy?"
0:06:30 > 0:06:32"Because me no take nothing for joke.
0:06:32 > 0:06:38"And funny boy tell my father that he going die right now, right now.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41"And funny boy hold a gun right near my father ear.
0:06:41 > 0:06:43"And he say, 'You want to live?
0:06:43 > 0:06:46"'You want to live?' Over and over and over again
0:06:46 > 0:06:48"like a nagging little girl.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51"And he rubbed my father lips with them gun
0:06:51 > 0:06:53"and my father open him mouth, and funny boy say
0:06:53 > 0:06:55"'If you bite off my head,
0:06:55 > 0:06:59"'I'm going to shoot you in the neck so you hear yourself dying.'"
0:07:02 > 0:07:07Some of the most violent sequences in the book are actually,
0:07:07 > 0:07:11at the same time, can be quite poetic and funny.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14They're not on one note at all, are they?
0:07:14 > 0:07:18No, and on one hand, it's going to be a terrifying scene,
0:07:18 > 0:07:20but it's also going to be a scene of wonder.
0:07:20 > 0:07:25It's when Bill Sykes dies, he's gone, but we kind of miss him.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28And we're not supposed to. He's one of the most horrible things Dickens
0:07:28 > 0:07:31ever came up with. But that sort of, "Make them laugh, make them cry,
0:07:31 > 0:07:33"make them wail," which is what Dickens said,
0:07:33 > 0:07:38a lot of people misses that he means all at the same time.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42And this other strangeness of your life, your mother
0:07:42 > 0:07:43was a policewoman, a detective.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46Your father was also a detective and a lawyer,
0:07:46 > 0:07:49so what kind of upbringing did you have?
0:07:49 > 0:07:53That's a good question. I'm still figuring that out.
0:07:53 > 0:07:57It's weird, it's kind of protected, but not sheltered.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59But that the same time, yeah, my mum was a cop.
0:07:59 > 0:08:03The night of the '80 election, there was a shoot-out right at her office.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07And there's a split second where I'm thinking,
0:08:07 > 0:08:10"My mother might not come home tonight."
0:08:10 > 0:08:13So, there's never a sense of total safety.
0:08:13 > 0:08:15MUSIC: Concrete Jungle by Bob Marley
0:08:15 > 0:08:17# No sun will shine
0:08:17 > 0:08:19# In my day today
0:08:21 > 0:08:23# No sun will shine... #
0:08:23 > 0:08:27Jamaica in the 1970s was a dangerous place.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29Split by two political parties,
0:08:29 > 0:08:32the governing People's National Party
0:08:32 > 0:08:34and the opposing Jamaica Labour Party
0:08:34 > 0:08:37whose ghetto territories were controlled brutally
0:08:37 > 0:08:39by gang enforcers.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41Murder was commonplace.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45But Marlon grew up in Portmore,
0:08:45 > 0:08:49a relatively sedate suburb just to the west of Kingston.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52You may have heard about these things.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54- You may have watched the news. - Mm-hm.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56You were living in a middle-class environment.
0:08:56 > 0:08:57I'm in a middle-class suburb,
0:08:57 > 0:09:03two cars, working parents, raised by a Sesame Street household.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06At the same time, the country's not so big that you escape anything.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09So even if you've not experienced violence, you've heard about it.
0:09:09 > 0:09:10There's a rumour of it.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13There's a fear it might jump uptown and hit you.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16- # Concrete jungle - Jungle. #
0:09:16 > 0:09:20Everybody knew who the powerful ghetto dons were.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24Marlon drew on these gangsters and tales of their vicious crimes
0:09:24 > 0:09:28for his book, changing their names to things like Shotta Sheriff,
0:09:28 > 0:09:29or Josey Wales.
0:09:34 > 0:09:39There was a character at the school who was the son of the so-called
0:09:39 > 0:09:41- Josey Wales.- Mark. Yeah, he was in my art class.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45The fact that he was there forced me,
0:09:45 > 0:09:48and forced everybody at school to look at him in a different context.
0:09:48 > 0:09:52Of course, he then went on to be a gunman himself
0:09:52 > 0:09:54and died pretty young.
0:09:54 > 0:09:59One bike, two riders, one steering the bike, one firing the gun,
0:09:59 > 0:10:02and killed him... That's what I think.
0:10:02 > 0:10:06And his father was involved in those gangs at that time?
0:10:06 > 0:10:08His father headed those gangs.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14"You have another son. The machete reappears right up my throat.
0:10:14 > 0:10:19"Your firstborn dead, your girl dead, you only got one left, Josey.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22"And if you don't think we won't come after him..."
0:10:25 > 0:10:28Marlon went to school here at Wolmer's,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32an all-boys grammar school in Kingston.
0:10:32 > 0:10:33- APPLAUSE - Thanks.
0:10:35 > 0:10:36All right, what you reading?
0:10:36 > 0:10:38What are you reading now?
0:10:38 > 0:10:40- Thomas Hardy.- Thomas Hardy.
0:10:40 > 0:10:42Wow, my apologies!
0:10:42 > 0:10:44I hate Thomas Hardy.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49His English teacher Ms Leyow still works at the school today.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55All right, this is the only yearbook that I could find with Marlon's
0:10:55 > 0:11:01picture in it. Marlon was in fourth form, and here he is, in form 4L.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03- Here he is.- So that's him.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06Right, so he would have been about 15.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10- And that was around the mid-'80s, was it?- Yes.
0:11:10 > 0:11:14My memories - quiet young man, almost an introvert.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16Always sketching, drawing.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18Was a good student.
0:11:18 > 0:11:19And Marlon, to this day,
0:11:19 > 0:11:21is the only student that I've had
0:11:21 > 0:11:24who scored an A on the Shakespeare paper.
0:11:26 > 0:11:28Do you get a certain feeling
0:11:28 > 0:11:31that you have to write about Caribbean things, or do you...?
0:11:31 > 0:11:33- All the time.- Are you OK...?
0:11:33 > 0:11:35But you should write whatever you want.
0:11:35 > 0:11:40I think, too often, we writers, particularly in the Caribbean,
0:11:40 > 0:11:43in African continent and sub-Asia, is all of us,
0:11:43 > 0:11:47we feel that there's a certain story that we're obligated to tell.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50And you're not obligated to tell it. If you want to tell it, tell it.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52There is no "should" when it comes to writing.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54There's nothing you should do.
0:11:57 > 0:11:58When I first came to Wolmer's,
0:11:58 > 0:12:01there was an expression that the boys would use
0:12:01 > 0:12:04that I didn't understand.
0:12:04 > 0:12:09My first encounter with it was in a Shakespeare class - Julius Caesar.
0:12:09 > 0:12:15And it had to do with a particular line between Cassius and Brutus.
0:12:15 > 0:12:19And a student gave out this expression - veee!
0:12:19 > 0:12:21And I said, what is that?
0:12:21 > 0:12:23What is that sound supposed to mean?
0:12:23 > 0:12:26I had a friend, and I told her about the experience
0:12:26 > 0:12:28and she said, "My dear,
0:12:28 > 0:12:31"that is the expression these Wolmer's boys make when they think
0:12:31 > 0:12:33"anything smacks of homosexuality."
0:12:37 > 0:12:4114 and 15 were horrible years.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43Absolutely horrendous years.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47I'm convinced that it was music that got me through them.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49If there wasn't, like, Purple Rain to listen to,
0:12:49 > 0:12:51I don't know if I'd have made it to 16.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55It's a hell of a thing, when the years that you really want to be
0:12:55 > 0:12:58popular, you end up being one of the least popular kids.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00And why do you think you were?
0:13:00 > 0:13:02I think because everybody just thought
0:13:02 > 0:13:03it was a little fag running around.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07I certainly remember doing things to sort of score man points.
0:13:07 > 0:13:12- Man points?- Yeah. Kind of, the sort of, sissy, but I brought Penthouse.
0:13:16 > 0:13:19"I'd spent seven years in an all-boys school.
0:13:19 > 0:13:24"2,000 adolescents in the same khaki uniforms, striking hunting poses,
0:13:24 > 0:13:28"stalking lunchrooms, classrooms, changing rooms,
0:13:28 > 0:13:31"looking for boys who didn't fit in.
0:13:31 > 0:13:36"One day, after school, instead of going home, I walked for miles,
0:13:36 > 0:13:38"all the way down to Kingston Harbour.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42"I stopped right at the edge of the dock, thinking next time,
0:13:42 > 0:13:43"I would just keep walking."
0:13:57 > 0:14:01When I first had Marlon in my class, I was a junior teacher,
0:14:01 > 0:14:02you have to understand.
0:14:02 > 0:14:07So I was finding my own way, trying to hone my skills.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10So I don't think, at the time,
0:14:10 > 0:14:15I was very observant of some of what I might call the underbelly
0:14:15 > 0:14:17of an all-boys school.
0:14:17 > 0:14:23But in the 30 years I've been here now, I've had students who have
0:14:23 > 0:14:26indicated to me that they suffered.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29And I think that Marlon was one of those students.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Jamaica has a long history of anti-gay prejudice.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42It's a country where sodomy is still illegal
0:14:42 > 0:14:47and the law is used to justify and spread violence and hatred.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53Jamaican dance hall has played a huge part.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57Some tracks calling for gay men to be attacked, even murdered -
0:14:57 > 0:14:58burned alive.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06As a young man, Marlon's closest friend was Ingrid Riley.
0:15:07 > 0:15:09How long have you known Marlon for?
0:15:09 > 0:15:11We met in sixth form.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14So, yeah, pretty much more than half of our lives,
0:15:14 > 0:15:18if we were to be honest about how old we are, right?
0:15:18 > 0:15:21He talked about himself being a bit of a nerd.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23Was he cool or was he a nerd?
0:15:23 > 0:15:25- He was a cool nerd.- A cool nerd?
0:15:25 > 0:15:26A cool nerd. I think nerds are cool.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30- I hang around with quite a few of them.- Did you have this...
0:15:30 > 0:15:34a relationship intimate enough for him to tell you about his sexuality,
0:15:34 > 0:15:36that he was gay? Did he talk to you about it?
0:15:36 > 0:15:38No.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40Here's the thing, I always kind of knew.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42- You always kind of knew?- I knew.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45Actually, I told him. And when I told him,
0:15:45 > 0:15:49that was the one time in all of the years that we've known each other
0:15:49 > 0:15:52that our relationship kind of strained.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54I was like, "Dude, I think you're gay
0:15:54 > 0:15:57"and you maybe just need to accept that and everything."
0:15:57 > 0:16:00I took him to a couple of gay parties here and he'd be, like,
0:16:00 > 0:16:02in the corner going like...
0:16:02 > 0:16:04Totally disengaged.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06And then he ran into the church.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09CONGREGATION SINGS
0:16:12 > 0:16:16After university, Marlon spent his late 20s living in Kingston,
0:16:16 > 0:16:19working as an advertising executive.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21He was 28 when he joined the church.
0:16:26 > 0:16:31The church he belonged to for nearly a decade was an evangelical-style
0:16:31 > 0:16:32Pentecostal church
0:16:32 > 0:16:36with hand clapping, singing and charismatic sermons.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42- Sing about praise! - THE CONGREGATION SING AND CHEER
0:16:42 > 0:16:44I need the best praise that you've got.
0:16:44 > 0:16:45Give me that praise.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50Clap your hands above your head.
0:16:50 > 0:16:52Tell me about the church phase.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55Let's talk about that now. This is nine years where you committed
0:16:55 > 0:16:57- yourself to the church?- Yeah.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59And how much pleasure did you get out of the time
0:16:59 > 0:17:01or was it just a retreat?
0:17:01 > 0:17:03But retreat is pleasure, though.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07I actually got a lot of pleasure out of it.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10I went there for very selfish reasons.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13I went there to pray away the gay.
0:17:13 > 0:17:15To pray away the gay.
0:17:15 > 0:17:16To pray away the gay.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19That's really the only reason why I went.
0:17:19 > 0:17:24But you know, I ended up with a whole new sort of family there,
0:17:24 > 0:17:26I would never have been in church...
0:17:27 > 0:17:30..for eight, nine years if it wasn't genuine, if it wasn't real,
0:17:30 > 0:17:34and if I didn't form really deep friendships
0:17:34 > 0:17:36with a lot of these people.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39There was still a sort of... Not a sort of... There was actually,
0:17:39 > 0:17:43I think, real acceptance because - and I think this is a crucial
0:17:43 > 0:17:45thing - because you're able to...
0:17:46 > 0:17:49..believe, buy into, become convinced,
0:17:49 > 0:17:52that Jesus finds you where you are
0:17:52 > 0:17:55but wants to take you to somewhere else.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58And I think there is actually something genuine to that.
0:17:58 > 0:18:03But also I think it's something that anybody can use to kid themselves.
0:18:03 > 0:18:04CONGREGATION SINGS
0:18:06 > 0:18:09Praying away the gay wasn't working.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11So he tried to free himself
0:18:11 > 0:18:13and sort out something more drastic.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17This was essentially an exorcism?
0:18:17 > 0:18:21We don't call it exorcism, we call it deliverance.
0:18:21 > 0:18:26And I remember, it was a Tuesday morning around 9am
0:18:26 > 0:18:29and I met two people I've never met and then they just sat me down
0:18:29 > 0:18:32and said, "Tell me about yourself."
0:18:32 > 0:18:36All I remember is opening my mouth to say something
0:18:36 > 0:18:38and a scream came out.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Somebody, clearly me or somebody says,
0:18:41 > 0:18:44"You know, he sees men naked when he prays."
0:18:46 > 0:18:48Everything just exploded in that room.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51It's like now they're talking to the demons.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54And one of the things about being in such emotional distress -
0:18:54 > 0:18:57cos I'm crying the whole time - you just start to vomit,
0:18:57 > 0:18:59you just start to bring everything up,
0:18:59 > 0:19:03it doesn't matter if you ate that day or not,
0:19:03 > 0:19:06so I went in there at nine o'clock in the morning,
0:19:06 > 0:19:10I left there around 11.30 and it was like, "You're free."
0:19:17 > 0:19:19Of course it wasn't that easy.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23And Marlon found himself drifting further and further away
0:19:23 > 0:19:24from the church.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28When did the break come after nine years?
0:19:28 > 0:19:31The cracks started to come when I really got serious about writing
0:19:31 > 0:19:35and I knew I wanted to write about subjects that my church
0:19:35 > 0:19:39wouldn't like, including really, really, really using the language
0:19:39 > 0:19:41of faithful to dispute faith.
0:19:42 > 0:19:49But also realising after a while that I was just tired of struggle.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51It's like, "That's it?"
0:19:51 > 0:19:55I just started to really question
0:19:55 > 0:19:57the idea that...
0:19:58 > 0:20:03..life is supposed to be an acceptance of a basic unhappiness.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06That just didn't make sense to me.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10# All along on the road to the soul's true abode
0:20:10 > 0:20:14# There's an eye watching you... #
0:20:16 > 0:20:19The book he wanted to write was John Crow's Devil...
0:20:20 > 0:20:24..about a small country church in Jamaica in the 1950s,
0:20:24 > 0:20:27and two preachers who do battle for the soul of the village.
0:20:30 > 0:20:36"Follow me and I can lead you beyond pain, beyond sin, beyond miracles.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39"I am the way, Clarence, I am the way.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41"Beyond every single thing you have thought about yourself,
0:20:41 > 0:20:44"beyond normal, beyond real.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48"Every time you use this, this snake in your pants,
0:20:48 > 0:20:50"you think you're killing the devil inside you,
0:20:50 > 0:20:52"you know of which devil I speak.
0:20:52 > 0:20:56"The devil you've been trying to kill since you were 12,
0:20:56 > 0:20:59"the devil in you that was stealing looks between my legs just now
0:20:59 > 0:21:01"when I was sitting in front of you.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05"You'll never kill it, not through pain, not through sin,
0:21:05 > 0:21:08"no matter how many times you come inside a woman
0:21:08 > 0:21:12"you'll never kill your heart's real desire."
0:21:12 > 0:21:14# There's an eye watching you. #
0:21:16 > 0:21:17THUNDER RUMBLES
0:21:20 > 0:21:22The book, in its own way, you could say it was revenge.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27Because here you talk very generously about the church
0:21:27 > 0:21:31and about that experience, but of course this is all a reflection
0:21:31 > 0:21:34of your own internal struggle as well during these years, isn't it?
0:21:34 > 0:21:36To some extent you've been on this journey yourself,
0:21:36 > 0:21:38certainly reflecting it.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41It's so funny, I remember the first person who said that to me,
0:21:41 > 0:21:42I was so offended.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45- Are you cross with me? - No, this is why I was offended
0:21:45 > 0:21:50cos he found me out. Because I'm like, "Well, I set it in 1956.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54"I did all these things to mask all of that," and I was like,
0:21:54 > 0:21:56"Dude, you're all over this book.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00"including this scatological obsession with men's private parts."
0:22:05 > 0:22:08I do know that I wanted to say something about the church.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10Despite me having a good experience in the church,
0:22:10 > 0:22:12I know I did want to say something about that.
0:22:12 > 0:22:19I also knew I wanted to puncture this kind of idyllic rural life
0:22:19 > 0:22:21that we always talk about in Jamaica.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28When he'd finished writing John Crow's Devil,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31Marlon sent it to a publisher, who turned it down,
0:22:31 > 0:22:36so he sent it to another and then another and another.
0:22:36 > 0:22:42You had 78 rejections for John Crow's Devil. I mean 78,
0:22:42 > 0:22:43that's quite a lot.
0:22:43 > 0:22:47I just didn't realise it and when I did realise it,
0:22:47 > 0:22:51it was really catastrophic and one day it just hit me -
0:22:51 > 0:22:56"Wow, this book has been turned down so many times,
0:22:56 > 0:22:58"maybe there is something wrong with it."
0:22:58 > 0:23:00And did it make you very depressed?
0:23:00 > 0:23:04Oh, I destroyed it. I actually destroyed the manuscript.
0:23:04 > 0:23:05I erased it from my laptop.
0:23:05 > 0:23:09I went to my friends' houses and erased it from their computers.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11I just destroyed the whole thing.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17Having buried his manuscript and along with it any hope of being
0:23:17 > 0:23:21a published novelist, Marlon went along with friends as amateurs
0:23:21 > 0:23:26to a workshop at Calabash, Jamaica's international literary festival.
0:23:27 > 0:23:31One of the workshop leaders, Kaylie Jones,
0:23:31 > 0:23:34the novelist, asked me if I had any other work and I was like,
0:23:34 > 0:23:37"No, I'm really not a writer, I'm not here for this."
0:23:37 > 0:23:40- But she was impressed with you, that's why she said that?- Yeah.
0:23:40 > 0:23:44She insisted on seeing John Crow's Devil which I know didn't exist
0:23:44 > 0:23:47any more and she just wouldn't take no for an answer.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49She said, "You need to bring me this novel."
0:23:49 > 0:23:53So I went back went through all the old computers and tried to undelete
0:23:53 > 0:23:55and all of that. None of that worked
0:23:55 > 0:23:59and I went through the e-mail outbox.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02It was Outlook Express - that's how old we're going back.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06And it was in the outbox sent to my friend Robert.
0:24:06 > 0:24:07And that's where I found it.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11MUSIC: Dirt Off Your Shoulder by Jay Z
0:24:11 > 0:24:14# Turn the music up in the headphones
0:24:14 > 0:24:17# Tim, you can go and brush your shoulder off - I got you... #
0:24:17 > 0:24:20The workshop leader's persistence paid off -
0:24:20 > 0:24:24it got Marlon one step closer to his ticket out of Jamaica,
0:24:24 > 0:24:27with an introduction to a Akashic Books,
0:24:27 > 0:24:30a small independent New York publishing company,
0:24:30 > 0:24:33known for chancing risky authors.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36# Trying to hustle some things That go with the Porsche. #
0:24:36 > 0:24:39Marlon walks up and says,
0:24:39 > 0:24:41"Kaylie told me to talk to you,"
0:24:41 > 0:24:43and Marlon and I chatted for a few minutes.
0:24:43 > 0:24:47One piece of the story that is always very ironic to me,
0:24:47 > 0:24:50I have a rock 'n' roll background and I played for years in a band
0:24:50 > 0:24:53called Girls Against Boys. It's how I made a living in the 1990s
0:24:53 > 0:24:56and in fact how I started this publishing company was with money
0:24:56 > 0:24:58I made playing rock 'n' roll music.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01One of the first things Marlon asked me when we first met was,
0:25:01 > 0:25:03"Are you really in Girls Against Boys?"
0:25:03 > 0:25:06And to this day I'm convinced that there was only one person in Jamaica
0:25:06 > 0:25:09that knew about this band and it was Marlon James.
0:25:09 > 0:25:10So he gave me the manuscript.
0:25:10 > 0:25:15From the very first word to the very last word, it was genius.
0:25:15 > 0:25:19What was it that captivated you about the book?
0:25:19 > 0:25:24My taste in literature runs dark. You know, I love William Faulkner
0:25:24 > 0:25:26up to Toni Morrison.
0:25:26 > 0:25:31I like it when people are diving deep into the guts of dark themes,
0:25:31 > 0:25:34that they are not shying away from dark themes.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37Everything I'm saying about my taste in literature, anyone who's read
0:25:37 > 0:25:41Marlon's work knows that Marlon's work falls dead centre
0:25:41 > 0:25:42in terms of what I'm talking about.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45- It is incredibly inflammatory, that book about the church.- Sure.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47I was nervous about that.
0:25:47 > 0:25:51I knew enough about how seriously religion...
0:25:51 > 0:25:56What a serious and fundamental role Christianity, in particular, play in
0:25:56 > 0:26:01Jamaican culture. He was invited to read at the Jamaican Consulate.
0:26:01 > 0:26:06When he was reading, everybody was so uncomfortable.
0:26:06 > 0:26:08There were people gasping.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11There were people... Everyone was wiggling in their chairs,
0:26:11 > 0:26:13a lot of sucking of teeth.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16That kind of writing is too dark for some people.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19This sort of relentlessly honest,
0:26:19 > 0:26:22oftentimes relentlessly brutal work.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25He writes what he writes and obviously I think the fact you saw
0:26:25 > 0:26:27in this, what you felt was,
0:26:27 > 0:26:30you know, great literature.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33Obviously there are others who might have been intimidated by it.
0:26:33 > 0:26:37That's what's amazing to me about the 78 rejection letters he got.
0:26:38 > 0:26:42I don't think I brought a tremendous amount of keen insight
0:26:42 > 0:26:45into my first reading of that manuscript but to me,
0:26:45 > 0:26:49the strength of Marlon's writing, you pick up any of his three novels,
0:26:49 > 0:26:51you open up to any page, it's right there,
0:26:51 > 0:26:53it's just right there on the page
0:26:53 > 0:26:56so I don't know what those 78 people were thinking.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58He sent it to the wrong 78 people.
0:27:08 > 0:27:12John Crow's Devil was published in 2005,
0:27:12 > 0:27:16but of course this also meant his unholy thoughts were now out there.
0:27:19 > 0:27:23The book John Crow's Devil has got a dedication on the front.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26"And to my mother who must not read this book."
0:27:26 > 0:27:28Why must she not read this book?
0:27:28 > 0:27:30Mum's a good Christian lady.
0:27:30 > 0:27:34I don't think she would want to read all this perversion going on.
0:27:34 > 0:27:38Because my mum is still a very religious person
0:27:38 > 0:27:43and sometimes I wonder if a part of me didn't want her to know that,
0:27:43 > 0:27:46that she would read it and see all the subtext.
0:27:46 > 0:27:52It was my enquiry into religion and the church and why I couldn't really
0:27:52 > 0:27:56be a part of this any more.
0:27:56 > 0:27:57And what was your relationship?
0:27:57 > 0:27:58Tell me about you and your father
0:27:58 > 0:28:02cos I sense that that was... whatever, you know,
0:28:02 > 0:28:06goes on between father and son, that was a close relationship?
0:28:06 > 0:28:07It wasn't always close at all.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10It didn't start out that way.
0:28:10 > 0:28:14In fact our relationship was defined by distance
0:28:14 > 0:28:16for a long time.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19We were really good at talking about Shakespeare...
0:28:20 > 0:28:24..and talking about poetry and literature and talking about science
0:28:24 > 0:28:28and art and all of that. I don't think we talked about each other.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31You didn't share with them at any point that you were gay
0:28:31 > 0:28:34or did they have...? Or you thought you were?
0:28:34 > 0:28:37No. I can't imagine sharing anything like that.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44Marlon James first found the courage to write so boldly
0:28:44 > 0:28:47in the pages of another author's daring book.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53"I started reading Salman Rushdie's Shame,
0:28:53 > 0:28:55"hiding it in the leather Bible case.
0:28:55 > 0:28:57"I never read anything like it.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00"It was like a hand grenade inside a tulip.
0:29:00 > 0:29:04"Its prose was so audacious, its reality so unhinged.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06"It made me realise that the present
0:29:06 > 0:29:08"was something I could write my way out of."
0:29:11 > 0:29:17So Marlon James says that it was reading Shame that absolutely
0:29:17 > 0:29:20sort of inspired him. Did he tell you that at all?
0:29:20 > 0:29:25He did tell me. I mean, he told me when I met him which was after
0:29:25 > 0:29:27the publication of Brief History,
0:29:27 > 0:29:30and I think what it did is it allowed him to throw away...
0:29:32 > 0:29:36..a lot of conventional wisdom about how you should structure and write
0:29:36 > 0:29:39a novel, you know. I remember when I was a kid...
0:29:40 > 0:29:44..finding a collection of short stories by Borges.
0:29:44 > 0:29:47Not that I write anything like Borges, you know, but it made me
0:29:47 > 0:29:50think, "Goodness, you can do that and you can do that
0:29:50 > 0:29:53"and I didn't think that was possible to do that
0:29:53 > 0:29:55"but it seems you can do that."
0:29:56 > 0:29:59So it's not that he decided to write like Shame,
0:29:59 > 0:30:04it's that reading it just opened some kind of door in his head
0:30:04 > 0:30:06which let his own thing come out.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10I'm very flattered he should have reacted to it so strongly.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12What was your response when you read,
0:30:12 > 0:30:14I suppose, first of all, you read A Brief History?
0:30:14 > 0:30:18Initially, of course, baulked because of its incredible length.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24And then I really liked it,
0:30:24 > 0:30:28and I think it is a wonderfully ambitious book,
0:30:28 > 0:30:30in...you know, a good way.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33It has that daring,
0:30:33 > 0:30:37which, in a way, prefers to fall off the edge of a cliff
0:30:37 > 0:30:39- than not to attempt it.- Yes.
0:30:39 > 0:30:43I mean, can a glorious failure be better than modest success?
0:30:43 > 0:30:46- Yeah.- But, actually, what's amazing is how much, how often,
0:30:46 > 0:30:50how much through the book he pulls it off.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54I mean, I thought, it does that thing which the novel, at its best,
0:30:54 > 0:30:58can do, which is literally to bring you the news.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01It can show you that this is what the world is like, a piece of
0:31:01 > 0:31:03the world that you know nothing about.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06JAMAICAN RAP MUSIC
0:31:19 > 0:31:20Tell me now, tell me
0:31:20 > 0:31:23some of the things that happen to you since you win the prize?
0:31:23 > 0:31:25One thing I noticed happen is, anything I say now
0:31:25 > 0:31:28will make a headline.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31A lot of young Jamaicans are coming to me,
0:31:31 > 0:31:33and I see them in the chatrooms,
0:31:33 > 0:31:38- or when I meet them on campus...- Yeah.- ..how relieved,
0:31:38 > 0:31:41because in Jamaica we have veranda discussion.
0:31:41 > 0:31:42What we talk about on the veranda,
0:31:42 > 0:31:45- but we're not going to talk about it on the air.- In public.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48This, to them, feels like one of them veranda discussions that
0:31:48 > 0:31:50them have, or their parents have.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53- Out in the open?- Out in the open.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56But also, I mean, sales, it's nice to sell a book.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59- Absolutely.- Yeah! - Them royalties, man.- I mean...
0:31:59 > 0:32:01Rich up, rich up, rich up.
0:32:01 > 0:32:03Yeah! Yeah.
0:32:14 > 0:32:201976 is a year that Jamaica would prefer not to talk about.
0:32:20 > 0:32:22Violence is off the scale.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Political murders have reached the hundreds.
0:32:25 > 0:32:29And with an election looming, more people are going to die.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31- NEWSREADER:- This army post has been established at a point
0:32:31 > 0:32:34between one area which supports the opposition Labour Party,
0:32:34 > 0:32:38and the other supporting the governing People's National Party.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45There are rumours that the CIA are annoyed by the Communist leanings
0:32:45 > 0:32:50of the government PNP party, and are trying to destabilise the country.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54We have watched in the last year,
0:32:54 > 0:32:58violence, murder, lies.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01All of these forces have been held against us.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07Shipments of guns have flooded Kingston,
0:33:07 > 0:33:10and gang enforcers on both sides are warring on the streets.
0:33:11 > 0:33:17And it is Bob Marley who is seen as a symbol to hold Jamaica together.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19He agrees to perform at a concert for peace.
0:33:21 > 0:33:25But then the election is called early, to coincide with the concert.
0:33:25 > 0:33:29Suddenly, Marley looks like he has sided with the government.
0:33:29 > 0:33:34A gang of seven gunmen is recruited, by whom it's not clear.
0:33:35 > 0:33:39"When Josey Wales tell me last night who we was going shoot up,
0:33:39 > 0:33:41"I go home and vomit.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43"Me's a wicked man, me's a sick man,
0:33:43 > 0:33:45"but me would never join this
0:33:45 > 0:33:48"if I did know he wanted me to rub out the Singer."
0:33:50 > 0:33:55- They are embroiled in something very political, very complex.- Yeah.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57- You know, the different political parties...- Yeah.
0:33:57 > 0:34:03They just had no idea what they were caught up in.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07They're not... I don't think they are victims.
0:34:07 > 0:34:11They're not victims, and they're not misunderstood heroes,
0:34:11 > 0:34:14some of these guys are pretty horrible men.
0:34:21 > 0:34:26On the evening of December the 3rd, two days before the peace concert,
0:34:26 > 0:34:30the band are rehearsing at Marley's home, 56 Hope Road,
0:34:30 > 0:34:31and stop for a break.
0:34:34 > 0:34:38"I'm moving fast but everything's slow, I jump on the last step,
0:34:38 > 0:34:41"but the sound stretch and the faster I lift the gun,
0:34:41 > 0:34:42"the slower it feel.
0:34:42 > 0:34:44"I push my head in and see you.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46"Before I see Josey, you."
0:34:57 > 0:35:01This is it, this is where those boys - and they were boys -
0:35:01 > 0:35:03tried to kill Bob Marley.
0:35:03 > 0:35:05They didn't even go in,
0:35:05 > 0:35:08the guy was still down there and Josey just stuck his hand in
0:35:08 > 0:35:10and just fired.
0:35:10 > 0:35:11They just shot through the door?
0:35:11 > 0:35:15Yeah, he stuck his gun in and just fired.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17Marley would have been to the end there.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20Had he been inhaling instead of exhaling,
0:35:20 > 0:35:23the bullet would have gone straight through his heart.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26His manager got shot all over the abdomen,
0:35:26 > 0:35:28they thought he was going to die.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31His wife Rita was shot in the head,
0:35:31 > 0:35:33and they were about to finish her off until somebody just said,
0:35:33 > 0:35:35"Time to move, is he dead?" "Yeah, he's dead."
0:35:39 > 0:35:40"Josey don't aim for the head.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43"Like the Cuban tell we, aim for the head.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46"Make it blast open like a blender, you look straight at me,
0:35:46 > 0:35:48"you drop your grapefruit,
0:35:48 > 0:35:53"you look at me and I want you to shout and scream and sniff and tear,
0:35:53 > 0:35:56"piss your pants, jerk and fall, but you just look,
0:35:56 > 0:35:58"you didn't blink, and I and I bam-bam,
0:35:58 > 0:36:02"Jah Rastafari shot you in the heart.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04Now, we had just gone through So Jah Seh,
0:36:04 > 0:36:07and were starting on Natty Dread.
0:36:07 > 0:36:11We already finished the introduction and we get into the tune,
0:36:11 > 0:36:14and we hear "Bang-bang!" Hell broke loose.
0:36:14 > 0:36:18The men escaped and were chased by the police.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20In an interview with JBC News at the hospital,
0:36:20 > 0:36:23Bob Marley said he and members of his crew
0:36:23 > 0:36:25received numerous threats since
0:36:25 > 0:36:29the announcement of the Smile Jamaica Concert.
0:36:29 > 0:36:31It was so shocking, even the news report was so shocking,
0:36:31 > 0:36:33because the unwritten rule in Jamaica was,
0:36:33 > 0:36:35nobody touches a tough gang.
0:36:36 > 0:36:40The first time I ever saw my parents looking scared was after.
0:36:40 > 0:36:43After the shooting, because it just meant all bets are off
0:36:43 > 0:36:46and nobody was safe.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49# Get up, stand up
0:36:49 > 0:36:51# Stand up for your rights... #
0:36:52 > 0:36:56On December the 5th, a crowd of 80,000 people
0:36:56 > 0:36:59crammed into Kingston's National Heroes Park for
0:36:59 > 0:37:01the Smile Jamaica Peace Concert.
0:37:02 > 0:37:0648 hours after the bungled attempt on his life,
0:37:06 > 0:37:11a bullet still lodged in his arm, Bob Marley got up on stage.
0:37:11 > 0:37:17He'd agreed one song, but gave the fans a full 90 minute set.
0:37:17 > 0:37:21And then showed off his wounds.
0:37:22 > 0:37:26It's hard to believe, isn't it, that there's this gang of guys,
0:37:26 > 0:37:29and they fail to kill anyone.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32I think they were stunned and disturbed by the idea
0:37:32 > 0:37:35of shooting somebody who was a hero even to them.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38The only way they could get it done is do it as quickly and get out,
0:37:38 > 0:37:40they didn't even, you know,
0:37:40 > 0:37:43they usually administer the second shot to make sure everybody is dead,
0:37:43 > 0:37:47they didn't even do that. I think they were scared, actually.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49I think they were more scared than the people who got shot.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52It's not like they got up one day these boys
0:37:52 > 0:37:56and go, "Ooh, here's a gun, let's go kill Bob Marley."
0:37:56 > 0:38:00They were clearly at least assembled for a purpose,
0:38:00 > 0:38:02and the fact that they were so young
0:38:02 > 0:38:05and so inexperienced also meant they were disposable.
0:38:05 > 0:38:10So, the people behind the plot, do people know who was behind the plot,
0:38:10 > 0:38:13- have they survived? - I think people know. You know what,
0:38:13 > 0:38:15I made sure not to answer that question.
0:38:17 > 0:38:21Because one, I don't know and two, I don't want to end up dead.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24But, I mean, I think people know.
0:38:24 > 0:38:29One interview that happened right after Bob got shot, it's online,
0:38:29 > 0:38:31you can find it on YouTube,
0:38:31 > 0:38:34where somebody was asking, "Do you know who shot you?"
0:38:34 > 0:38:35And he was like, "Yeah."
0:38:35 > 0:38:39Just very matter-of-fact. Almost whispered, it's like, "Yeah."
0:38:39 > 0:38:42You never saw the gunmen?
0:38:42 > 0:38:44Uh...
0:38:44 > 0:38:46At that time, no.
0:38:46 > 0:38:49- But you know who did it? - Yeah, I know them.
0:38:49 > 0:38:53- Where they caught? - No, not caught by police.
0:38:53 > 0:38:57Just you know...one of them things.
0:38:57 > 0:39:01# Stir it up
0:39:01 > 0:39:06# Little darlin', stir it up
0:39:06 > 0:39:08# Come on, baby... #
0:39:08 > 0:39:10So, what happened to the hitmen?
0:39:11 > 0:39:13In the years that followed Marley's attempted murder,
0:39:13 > 0:39:18the case seemed to drift away, just like his would-be killers.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21And, then, in June, 1991,
0:39:21 > 0:39:25they turned up again, in an article in one of Marlon's music magazines.
0:39:25 > 0:39:29You know, "The gunmen involved in the ambush of Bob Marley began to
0:39:29 > 0:39:32"turn up dead, hunted down by Rasta vigilantes."
0:39:32 > 0:39:36That just set off my head, in all sorts of ways,
0:39:36 > 0:39:41the idea of this Rasta avenging force going after these people.
0:39:41 > 0:39:45"Those found in Kingston or tracked to urban hideouts had been shot,
0:39:45 > 0:39:46"most of them through the head.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49"Those who fled to the hills have their throats slit,
0:39:49 > 0:39:53"as a bushman does with goats at slaughtering time."
0:39:53 > 0:39:58I didn't know these men, these boys, had an afterlife.
0:39:58 > 0:40:03And that's what this article sort of gave me,
0:40:03 > 0:40:08and, I mean, I was riveted by it.
0:40:08 > 0:40:11"Brethren, you can't write no book about this.
0:40:11 > 0:40:14"Let me get this straight, you're writing a book about the singer,
0:40:14 > 0:40:16"the gangs, the peace treaty.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18"You have no proof of anything.
0:40:18 > 0:40:20"But, yeah, man, write the book.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23"Just do me and yourself one favour -
0:40:23 > 0:40:25"wait till everybody dead before you publish it."
0:40:29 > 0:40:33One by one, the gunmen who tried to kill Bob Marley
0:40:33 > 0:40:35meet horrible deaths.
0:40:35 > 0:40:40Some are shot, others are hanged and one is buried alive.
0:40:40 > 0:40:42It's clearly a very well researched book.
0:40:42 > 0:40:47He's clearly gone to enormous trouble to inform himself,
0:40:47 > 0:40:49but I think he's then done the intelligent thing
0:40:49 > 0:40:52that you have to do when you are writing fiction.
0:40:52 > 0:40:55There's a point at which you have to close the books of research.
0:40:55 > 0:40:58And just say, "OK, now I'm going to make it up."
0:41:04 > 0:41:08Marlon's novels all delve into troubled periods
0:41:08 > 0:41:10in Jamaica's history.
0:41:10 > 0:41:14But the one that reaches furthest into the guts of the most prolonged,
0:41:14 > 0:41:17most violent episode in his country's past
0:41:17 > 0:41:20is his book about a young slave girl called Lilith.
0:41:23 > 0:41:28"She see the slaves when they come back in the evening, tired, crying,
0:41:28 > 0:41:33"limping and bleeding, and some that come back in a sack.
0:41:33 > 0:41:35"And she hear other things, too.
0:41:35 > 0:41:38"Of the time in 1785 when they burn a nigger girl alive
0:41:38 > 0:41:40"right in the middle of the cane field.
0:41:40 > 0:41:43"And when the overseer chop off another nigger head
0:41:43 > 0:41:45"and stick it on a pole until it rot off.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49"And when they send five slave to the treadmill, where them niggers
0:41:49 > 0:41:51"run themselves to death."
0:41:56 > 0:41:58At the end of this book, you say,
0:41:58 > 0:42:02"Thanks to the history I learned and the history I had to unlearn."
0:42:02 > 0:42:04- Mm-hmm.- So what did you mean by that?
0:42:04 > 0:42:07I mean the British colonial history.
0:42:07 > 0:42:10The very first thing I ever learned to memorise
0:42:10 > 0:42:13was Christopher Columbus discovered Jamaica in 1494.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16There are at least four lies in that sentence.
0:42:18 > 0:42:21This sort of British colonial education,
0:42:21 > 0:42:23which is a lot different from British education.
0:42:23 > 0:42:26Because we are being, even in 1970,
0:42:26 > 0:42:29we're still being taught to be subjects of Empire.
0:42:29 > 0:42:34And I think that is something that I had to sort of get out of.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38Everything, even how I wrote English, one of the things I notice,
0:42:38 > 0:42:41and a lot of writers who come from the British Commonwealth
0:42:41 > 0:42:42can talk about this,
0:42:42 > 0:42:46is how we kind of have to unlearn the English we learn.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49Because we learnt this sort of servile, overwritten
0:42:49 > 0:42:53verbose English, and we have no fun with the language.
0:42:57 > 0:42:59- You call this book The Book Of Night Women.- Mm.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03And you have focused the story on very much an untold story,
0:43:03 > 0:43:06which is a story of slave women.
0:43:06 > 0:43:10A story of slave women, a Caribbean story because a lot of
0:43:10 > 0:43:12the major novels we have about slavery
0:43:12 > 0:43:14tend to be about American slavery.
0:43:14 > 0:43:16It was a difficult book to write, and one of the reasons why it was
0:43:16 > 0:43:21difficult is to try to get in the mind where this cruelty is casual.
0:43:21 > 0:43:27Where both victim and perpetrator look at it as just another day.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30"Nothing in this world like killing a man.
0:43:30 > 0:43:35"Your skin and him skin, you're tearing him chest hair off.
0:43:35 > 0:43:39"You just kill one time and you know why God save murder for himself.
0:43:39 > 0:43:42"Wicked, wicked, wicked, and good, good, too good.
0:43:42 > 0:43:44"You understand me?
0:43:44 > 0:43:48"It's better than bellyful or when man fuck you good.
0:43:48 > 0:43:51"You do it and you know why white man be master over way.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54"Because he can grab a nigger and kill her just so.
0:43:54 > 0:43:58"Just like that. Only white man can live with how terrible that be."
0:44:02 > 0:44:04The Night Women are planning a murderous revenge
0:44:04 > 0:44:06on their plantation masters.
0:44:06 > 0:44:11The leader and mother figure, Homer, takes Lilith under her wing.
0:44:11 > 0:44:15But this gets complicated when one of the Irish slave overseers,
0:44:15 > 0:44:17Robert Quinn, takes an interest in Lilith.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22Colum McCann was one of my first draft readers.
0:44:22 > 0:44:24He says, "You know there's a love story in this novel.
0:44:24 > 0:44:26I'm like, "Dude, I don't do love.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29"I'm a literary fiction author, I don't write that love bullshit."
0:44:29 > 0:44:32- Oh, yes, you do. - And then he says, "Yes,
0:44:32 > 0:44:36"but there's a relationship between Lilith and Robert Quinn,
0:44:36 > 0:44:39"and you need to write it." I was like, "I'm not writing that."
0:44:39 > 0:44:42And he says, "You need to risk sentimentality."
0:44:42 > 0:44:45Which is one of the best pieces of advice I have ever gotten.
0:44:45 > 0:44:47Risk sentimentality.
0:44:47 > 0:44:49And that's how that happened,
0:44:49 > 0:44:54but I had no intention of her falling for that Irish dude.
0:44:54 > 0:44:57"Lilith see him moving in to kiss her and pulled back.
0:44:57 > 0:44:59"He look at her.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01"White man supposed to lie with nigger woman,
0:45:01 > 0:45:04"fuck them and even squeeze them.
0:45:04 > 0:45:06"Sometimes, they even love them.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09"But no white man is supposed to kiss a nigger.
0:45:09 > 0:45:11"That be love things,
0:45:11 > 0:45:14"things for white woman, and proper white woman at that.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19"Robert Quinn hold her firm, close him eye and try to kiss her again."
0:45:23 > 0:45:27There are two chapters, almost pages which follow each other.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30- One in Lilith thinking about killing...- Mm-hm.
0:45:30 > 0:45:34..and the monstrous things that she has done, if you like.
0:45:34 > 0:45:36And then about kissing,
0:45:36 > 0:45:39which is almost more alien to her than killing, you know?
0:45:39 > 0:45:41Well, it would be, because cruelty
0:45:41 > 0:45:45- would be a lot more familiar to her than tenderness.- Yes.
0:45:45 > 0:45:49Even among the women, even among the slaves themselves,
0:45:49 > 0:45:55while the tricky, complicated things about Lilith and Homer,
0:45:55 > 0:45:58who oversees the house,
0:45:58 > 0:46:01is they come this close to being mother, daughter, but not quite.
0:46:01 > 0:46:05They come this close to being sister, sister but not quite.
0:46:05 > 0:46:06It's just that final...
0:46:08 > 0:46:11..let's call it a leap of intimacy, whatever that might mean,
0:46:11 > 0:46:14just can't happen. It never happens with Lilith and Homer.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16It doesn't happen with Lilith and Quinn.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19It's one of the things I was saying about slavery,
0:46:19 > 0:46:22ultimately this type of love,
0:46:22 > 0:46:26this type of bond, is doomed in this type of scene, it's just doomed.
0:46:29 > 0:46:33"Lilith start to imagine what white flesh look like after a whipping.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36"What a white neck look like after a hanging.
0:46:36 > 0:46:40"What kind of scar leave on a white body after black punishment."
0:46:46 > 0:46:47Lilith seizes her chance.
0:46:48 > 0:46:52She drowns the owner of the plantation in the bath,
0:46:52 > 0:46:57slaughters the witnesses and burns the great house to the ground.
0:46:57 > 0:46:59The children, still locked inside.
0:47:00 > 0:47:02The scene in the bath is extreme,
0:47:02 > 0:47:06and then, of course, she's left in this house.
0:47:06 > 0:47:10And there are the pickneys, the little children sitting there.
0:47:10 > 0:47:13She almost hesitates, and yet she kills those children too.
0:47:13 > 0:47:17What was the motivation behind that extremism?
0:47:17 > 0:47:19Two things, one...
0:47:19 > 0:47:22they are witnesses.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25And, funny enough, that's the rational side of her,
0:47:25 > 0:47:29that was the rational, let's think this out carefully.
0:47:29 > 0:47:35But I think also, there is her absolutely getting off on it.
0:47:35 > 0:47:37And honestly, and again,
0:47:37 > 0:47:39that's another scene, I think,
0:47:39 > 0:47:42that was almost more me than her.
0:47:42 > 0:47:46That if I was surrounded by all these people who commit atrocities,
0:47:46 > 0:47:48I would totally burn them to death.
0:47:48 > 0:47:50- The anger, you mean? - The anger, the fury.
0:47:50 > 0:47:52There is a lot of my own rage.
0:47:52 > 0:47:55You can't write a story about slavery and not be enraged.
0:47:55 > 0:47:59There were days when I was so consumed by rage, I couldn't write.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03Part of me bringing in this kind of eye for an eye, we're both blind.
0:48:03 > 0:48:07I'm like, I don't care, as long as you're blind, I'm fine with it.
0:48:07 > 0:48:10It's lucky you just write novels.
0:48:10 > 0:48:15# Old pirates, yes, they rob I
0:48:15 > 0:48:18# Sold I to the merchant ships
0:48:20 > 0:48:23# Minutes after they took I
0:48:24 > 0:48:27# From the bottomless pit... #
0:48:28 > 0:48:31Slavery in Jamaica lasted nearly 400 years.
0:48:31 > 0:48:34The country suffered one of the longest,
0:48:34 > 0:48:36most brutal oppressions of all the colonies.
0:48:40 > 0:48:44Whilst Marlon's novels feed off the brutality of Jamaica's past,
0:48:44 > 0:48:50his books are also steeped in his own personal turmoil.
0:48:50 > 0:48:53# These songs of freedom
0:48:53 > 0:48:57# Cos all I ever have
0:48:58 > 0:49:00# Redemption songs.
0:49:03 > 0:49:05# Redemption songs. #
0:49:06 > 0:49:10At 28 years old, seven years out of college,
0:49:10 > 0:49:14I was so convinced that my voice outed me as a fag that I'd stopped
0:49:14 > 0:49:16speaking to people I didn't know.
0:49:16 > 0:49:20The silence left a mark, threw my whole body into a slouch
0:49:20 > 0:49:23with a concave chest, as if trying to absorb impact.
0:49:29 > 0:49:32I hadn't thought about killing myself since I was 16.
0:49:32 > 0:49:35But now there were nights when I woke up crying,
0:49:35 > 0:49:39or found myself out on the jail-terrace, so low, in sadness,
0:49:39 > 0:49:42that I had no memory of how I got there.
0:49:46 > 0:49:48This feeling of you say, not just once or twice,
0:49:48 > 0:49:50but there were a number of moments
0:49:50 > 0:49:53where you thought you might end it, end it all?
0:49:53 > 0:49:58Knowing that you're at the end of your rope and this is it,
0:49:58 > 0:50:01and actually just starting to decide to actually kill yourself,
0:50:01 > 0:50:03I think they're actually not two different things,
0:50:03 > 0:50:05but they're two different stages.
0:50:05 > 0:50:09I think one of the things I notice sometimes with my students,
0:50:09 > 0:50:11when they are depressed and bawling,
0:50:11 > 0:50:13weeping and wailing and crying in my office and so on,
0:50:13 > 0:50:15that's actually fine.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19It's when they're a little too at peace...
0:50:20 > 0:50:23..especially with things they shouldn't be at peace with,
0:50:23 > 0:50:26that's what's scary and that's when I go, "I know what you're thinking."
0:50:28 > 0:50:30Two, one...
0:50:32 > 0:50:35I listened over and over again to lyrics from the song,
0:50:35 > 0:50:38I Found A Reason by The Velvet Underground.
0:50:38 > 0:50:42"I do believe if you don't like things, you leave."
0:50:42 > 0:50:45I cried for a sorrow that I did not know I had.
0:50:45 > 0:50:49I was 28 years old and I had reached the end of myself.
0:50:49 > 0:50:54# Oh, I do believe
0:50:54 > 0:50:59# If you don't like things, you leave
0:50:59 > 0:51:06# For some place you've never gone before... #
0:51:09 > 0:51:13Marlon's article - From Jamaica To Minnesota To Myself -
0:51:13 > 0:51:18was published in the New York Times in March 2015.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21By now, he was 44 years old.
0:51:21 > 0:51:24It was his way of finally, publicly, coming out.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29When it was published, even his closest friends were surprised
0:51:29 > 0:51:32by how much of a struggle his silence had clearly been.
0:51:32 > 0:51:34Cigarette.
0:51:36 > 0:51:39Did he tell you he was going to write it, did he send it to you?
0:51:39 > 0:51:43He sent it to me before he sent it off to the New York Times.
0:51:43 > 0:51:45And I read it and I called him and I was, like,
0:51:45 > 0:51:49- slobbering, bawling, right? - SHE LAUGHS
0:51:49 > 0:51:52It's true, you've been with someone for decades as their friend,
0:51:52 > 0:51:55and I was, like, "Seriously, this is what was going on with you?"
0:51:55 > 0:51:57He says, yes, so on so on.
0:51:57 > 0:51:58I was like, "Wow, I didn't know
0:51:58 > 0:52:01"this is what you were thinking or feeling.
0:52:03 > 0:52:07"And I'm sorry I wasn't tuned in to you during that time."
0:52:07 > 0:52:10And I was like, "Wow, OK, are you going to do this?"
0:52:10 > 0:52:12He says, "Yeah, I'm just going to put it out there."
0:52:16 > 0:52:21I'm trying to figure out where this sort of personal vow of silence
0:52:21 > 0:52:23or secrecy came from.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26Why I didn't feel there were people I could talk to.
0:52:26 > 0:52:28I'm not sure where that came from.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30I think it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy,
0:52:30 > 0:52:33you figure if you tell anybody this,
0:52:33 > 0:52:36they'll never love you or accept you or whatever.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38So you just never do.
0:52:38 > 0:52:42You're such a sophisticated person in so many ways,
0:52:42 > 0:52:44and then you tell me this.
0:52:44 > 0:52:45And it's simply because,
0:52:45 > 0:52:48the whole of the rest of the world has come out,
0:52:48 > 0:52:51and able to do so and felt able to do so.
0:52:51 > 0:52:55And yet, somehow or other, you didn't feel you could?
0:52:55 > 0:52:58I didn't.
0:52:58 > 0:53:02I think to come out, you first have to accept it, or accept yourself.
0:53:02 > 0:53:04And, I mean...
0:53:04 > 0:53:05If I had accepted myself in my twenties,
0:53:05 > 0:53:08I'd never have had that long church phase.
0:53:10 > 0:53:12# Hey, Jim
0:53:12 > 0:53:14# Just a minute, y'all
0:53:14 > 0:53:17# I want you spell for me something
0:53:17 > 0:53:19# I want you spell for me New York, man
0:53:19 > 0:53:22# Why do you want me to spell New York, man?
0:53:22 > 0:53:24# I just want it spelled for me
0:53:24 > 0:53:26# New York, can you do that, man...? #
0:53:26 > 0:53:28By the time he reaches his late thirties,
0:53:28 > 0:53:31decades of masquerading had become too much.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36There are better places in the world to be Marlon James.
0:53:38 > 0:53:43"Eight years after reaching the end of myself, I was on borrowed time.
0:53:43 > 0:53:45"Whether it was in a plane or a coffin,
0:53:45 > 0:53:48"I knew I had to get out Jamaica.
0:53:48 > 0:53:51"I stepped off the 6 train at Spring Street.
0:53:51 > 0:53:55"Black combat boots, busting a move.
0:53:55 > 0:53:58"Levi's Offender jeans sausaging my legs skinny.
0:53:58 > 0:54:04"Hip hug, butt squeeze, flaring below the knee and over my boots.
0:54:04 > 0:54:08"Stepping out on the subway, emerging crotch first,
0:54:08 > 0:54:12"posture moving from a slump like a question mark to a buffalo stance.
0:54:12 > 0:54:15"By now, the person I created in New York
0:54:15 > 0:54:17"was the only one I wanted to be."
0:54:17 > 0:54:20# I want you to dig me, soul brothers, soul sisters... #
0:54:20 > 0:54:23It's not just Marlon James who ends up in the States.
0:54:23 > 0:54:27A Brief History Of Seven Killings winds up there too.
0:54:27 > 0:54:31It's the late '80s, and the height of the American crack epidemic.
0:54:34 > 0:54:37One of Marlon's most vicious Jamaican gangsters
0:54:37 > 0:54:40has flown out to run their crack cocaine operation.
0:54:40 > 0:54:45He's ruthless, manipulative, and now that he's in New York,
0:54:45 > 0:54:46he's unashamedly gay.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50And the hitman who's been sent to kill him,
0:54:50 > 0:54:52he's gay too.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55"So, she a sweet little thing then?
0:54:55 > 0:54:56"What's your name?"
0:54:56 > 0:54:58"Rocky."
0:54:58 > 0:55:01"Thomas Alan Bernstein, but I call him Rocky, can you shut up now?"
0:55:01 > 0:55:03"Oh."
0:55:03 > 0:55:05"Yeah, and I don't need your fucking shit."
0:55:05 > 0:55:07"So...him cute?"
0:55:07 > 0:55:10"Well if you're going to be a batty man, at least get the best batty."
0:55:12 > 0:55:16He's gay, he's intimidating, he's incredibly violent,
0:55:16 > 0:55:18capable of incredible violence.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21And that's why nobody challenges his gayness or anything like that,
0:55:21 > 0:55:23it's sort of accepted, is that right?
0:55:23 > 0:55:24Yeah.
0:55:24 > 0:55:27It's also not unheard of in Jamaica.
0:55:27 > 0:55:30If you're vicious enough, you can get away with anything, I think.
0:55:30 > 0:55:31There have been gay gunmen,
0:55:31 > 0:55:33there've certainly been some men there
0:55:33 > 0:55:35who look like they're transgender.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38There are people who are big on skin bleaching
0:55:38 > 0:55:40and wearing make-up and so on.
0:55:40 > 0:55:45All this stuff is there, but it's not being commented on?
0:55:45 > 0:55:46Right. I think, for example,
0:55:46 > 0:55:50some Jamaicans would have had less of a problem with me if I stuck with
0:55:50 > 0:55:51don't ask, don't tell.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54Which is what a lot of Jamaicans, gay Jamaicans, negotiate.
0:55:54 > 0:55:57We will never speak of this.
0:55:57 > 0:55:59If we never speak about it, we're cool.
0:55:59 > 0:56:01If you start wearing a rainbow T-shirt,
0:56:01 > 0:56:03we're going to have problems.
0:56:03 > 0:56:06"All right man, too much of this batty boy business."
0:56:06 > 0:56:07"Shame.
0:56:07 > 0:56:10"You're the first man in this city worth talking to."
0:56:10 > 0:56:12I get up and go behind him,
0:56:12 > 0:56:16I push the gun through his hair until it touches his skull.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28Your books have actually got people talking.
0:56:28 > 0:56:31I feel you want to start a conversation here in Jamaica
0:56:31 > 0:56:33about the past, about the present,
0:56:33 > 0:56:35about the things which have not been talked about,
0:56:35 > 0:56:38- is that part of your...- Yeah, but I didn't think it was a deliberate
0:56:38 > 0:56:42thing, when I started doing it.
0:56:42 > 0:56:46I think a lot of it was conversations that I wanted
0:56:46 > 0:56:50to have personally with whoever would want to listen.
0:56:52 > 0:56:55And yeah, there's a huge part of me that wrote these books,
0:56:55 > 0:56:59not necessarily to start debate,
0:56:59 > 0:57:02because I usually don't stay around for whatever fires I start.
0:57:02 > 0:57:04HE LAUGHS
0:57:04 > 0:57:10But, to sort of change, I hope, the culture of not speaking.
0:57:10 > 0:57:12Just sort of getting it out.
0:57:14 > 0:57:18# I've been set free and
0:57:20 > 0:57:23# I've been bound
0:57:25 > 0:57:30# To the memories of
0:57:30 > 0:57:34# Yesterday's clouds
0:57:36 > 0:57:40# I've been set free and
0:57:40 > 0:57:43# I've been bound
0:57:43 > 0:57:44# And now
0:57:45 > 0:57:49# I'm set free
0:57:50 > 0:57:54# I'm set free
0:57:54 > 0:58:02# I'm set free to find a new illusion. #