0:00:02 > 0:00:03BBC Four Collections -
0:00:03 > 0:00:06specially-chosen programmes from the BBC archive.
0:00:08 > 0:00:11ALAN YENTOB: 'Anish Kapoor has been changing the way
0:00:11 > 0:00:13'we think about sculpture
0:00:13 > 0:00:15'for over 30 years.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25'His work has captivated the public and the art world
0:00:25 > 0:00:29'with its awesome scale and intriguing beauty.'
0:00:34 > 0:00:36ANISH KAPOOR: You can't set out to make something beautiful,
0:00:36 > 0:00:38I mean, you can't.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42But what you can do is recognise that there are moments
0:00:42 > 0:00:47when it's there, and say, "Ah, that's something I could go after,"
0:00:47 > 0:00:49or, "That's something I could leave alone."
0:00:51 > 0:00:52'In tonight's Imagine,
0:00:52 > 0:00:56'we follow him as he stages a landmark exhibition
0:00:56 > 0:00:58'at the Royal Academy,
0:00:58 > 0:01:01'the first living artist to be given the entire gallery -
0:01:01 > 0:01:04'a recognition of Kapoor's place
0:01:04 > 0:01:07'as one of the world's foremost artists.'
0:01:07 > 0:01:10The hard bit is how not to compromise.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40'May, 2009.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43'On top of the South Downs near Brighton,
0:01:43 > 0:01:47'a mysterious object merges with the landscape.'
0:01:59 > 0:02:02C-Curve, as in the letter C.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08This is quite
0:02:08 > 0:02:09disorientating, you know...
0:02:11 > 0:02:13..in a rather interesting way.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21'This strange mirrored object
0:02:21 > 0:02:24'seems to have reconfigured space here.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27'Is this a new form of landscape painting?'
0:02:27 > 0:02:31Now I have the real landscape on my right...
0:02:34 > 0:02:36..and the image on my left.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41So I'm moving in and out of the landscape
0:02:41 > 0:02:44and I can see this curve now,
0:02:44 > 0:02:46I don't know if it's in my head.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50SHEEP BLEAT
0:02:53 > 0:02:55I think I've invaded their territory.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59So what's the problem?
0:03:02 > 0:03:06'Shown as part of the Brighton Festival
0:03:06 > 0:03:07'in May 2009,
0:03:07 > 0:03:09'C-Curve draws huge crowds,
0:03:09 > 0:03:11'despite its remote location.'
0:03:16 > 0:03:18It's really, really beautiful,
0:03:18 > 0:03:20that's the first thing that kind of strikes you.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22The sheer expanse of it,
0:03:22 > 0:03:23it's really quite overwhelming.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28I like the way on one side it's the right way up,
0:03:28 > 0:03:32and on the other side it's upside down and 3-D,
0:03:32 > 0:03:34like a spoon.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36NEW SPEAKER: I think it's quite nice to think
0:03:36 > 0:03:38that when everyone's gone home at night,
0:03:38 > 0:03:40it's sitting on the hilltop, doing its thing still,
0:03:40 > 0:03:43for anyone, or any sheep, that cares to walk past.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45NEW SPEAKER: It seems almost quite mysterious.
0:03:45 > 0:03:47It's very simple,
0:03:47 > 0:03:49but when you get closer and closer
0:03:49 > 0:03:51you realise it's actually much more complex.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55NEW SPEAKER: It's a shared experience
0:03:55 > 0:03:56and I think that's a pretty good thing.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05I am very concerned with the ability of art to say, you know,
0:04:05 > 0:04:09"Come on in, you can be part of this."
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Or somehow there's a language here
0:04:12 > 0:04:16that actually is one that maybe you know already.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22And that's partly to do with the sense that it's experiential.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25It's not just an image you look at,
0:04:25 > 0:04:27it's a process you go through.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32What one wants to do, at one level, is to engage,
0:04:32 > 0:04:36and at another level, one wants to always hold on to seriousness.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38And, erm...
0:04:38 > 0:04:39it's a difficult one.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41It's very hard to do both.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43Smaller at the top.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46'Three months until the Royal Academy exhibition,
0:04:46 > 0:04:50'and Anish Kapoor is busy in his south London studio.
0:04:50 > 0:04:52'I join him to see how things are going.'
0:04:52 > 0:04:55So...
0:04:55 > 0:04:58The studio is really the place where things get discovered,
0:04:58 > 0:05:02where things open themselves in one way or another.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05But, you know, we're sort of... making things.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09What we're doing at the moment
0:05:09 > 0:05:13is to mimic what this object might be like
0:05:13 > 0:05:15if you painted it.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18Of course, the image is upside down, first of all.
0:05:18 > 0:05:23Secondly, the image isn't sitting on any plane.
0:05:23 > 0:05:24It isn't back there,
0:05:24 > 0:05:26or out here,
0:05:26 > 0:05:29it's in some intangible and almost physical place,
0:05:29 > 0:05:31somewhere around here.
0:05:31 > 0:05:32One might say, "Why is that art?"
0:05:32 > 0:05:34I quite like the question, by the way.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37- You're not frightened of that? - No, I think it's a good question.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39In some ways, the work, the art,
0:05:39 > 0:05:41needs to continue to resonate.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44And it's that...measure
0:05:44 > 0:05:46of whether it really resonates or not
0:05:46 > 0:05:50that is the thing that I'm after.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52That kind of simple
0:05:52 > 0:05:55but somehow mysterious poetic quality.
0:06:06 > 0:06:07It's like a piece of the sky
0:06:07 > 0:06:09that you can look at.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12You'll see that the clouds move very slowly across
0:06:12 > 0:06:15and it makes you think that you're moving,
0:06:15 > 0:06:18and the piece itself is actually moving and alive.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20It does really give you the sense
0:06:20 > 0:06:23that it's something else beyond what it actually is reflecting.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26And then a bird flies at a great speed across it,
0:06:26 > 0:06:28and I found myself at first looking beyond the shape,
0:06:28 > 0:06:31to see where the bird had gone.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33If you step up close to it,
0:06:33 > 0:06:35you have the sense you could be completely absorbed by it
0:06:35 > 0:06:38and just disappear into it, and become part of it.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41It's actually... I mean, it's incredible.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53The cost of it is £1.3 million...
0:06:53 > 0:06:54SECURITY RADIO: '41 to Patrol Six.'
0:06:56 > 0:06:57'Patrol Six, receiving.'
0:06:57 > 0:06:59In the night, it has got very high-risk,
0:06:59 > 0:07:02because drunk people, they come around, try to touch it,
0:07:02 > 0:07:04try to cover it, try to do anything.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06That's why we stand in there all the time.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15It changes from every direction,
0:07:15 > 0:07:17and not only from every direction,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20but with every movement of the sky, change of light.
0:07:20 > 0:07:22I think that's what draws me very much to it.
0:07:22 > 0:07:24You could stand and look at it for hours
0:07:24 > 0:07:27and never see the same thing, and I think that's just amazing.
0:07:30 > 0:07:31It just changes, you know.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35In that corner, I was watching a little bit of the pavilion,
0:07:35 > 0:07:38I walked around here and saw the whole tree, it's absolutely lovely.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40NEW SPEAKER: I think this is a really good place for it,
0:07:40 > 0:07:42because it's a place that everyone passes through
0:07:42 > 0:07:44and you've got sort of landscape and heritage,
0:07:44 > 0:07:47and then something totally, totally modern,
0:07:47 > 0:07:50as if it's just flown in overnight, yes.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53It's an extra-terrestrial quality, I think.
0:07:59 > 0:08:02'When thinking about Kapoor's work,
0:08:02 > 0:08:03'many different words come to mind.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07'Beguiling,
0:08:07 > 0:08:09'mercurial,
0:08:09 > 0:08:11'puzzling,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14'arresting.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20'He's best known in Britain for Marsyas,
0:08:20 > 0:08:23'shown at Tate Modern in 2002,
0:08:23 > 0:08:27'a work of staggering complexity and scale.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31'It was seen by over 1.8 million people,
0:08:31 > 0:08:34'making it one of the most visited works of sculpture in the world.
0:08:37 > 0:08:42'There are few artists today capable of taking on such commissions.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44'His stature in the art world
0:08:44 > 0:08:47'is matched by his immense popularity with the public.'
0:08:50 > 0:08:54Are you confident that if you had six to eight weeks on it...?
0:08:54 > 0:08:58'Now he faces a challenge without precedent.
0:08:58 > 0:09:02'The Royal Academy has handed him the entire gallery,
0:09:02 > 0:09:05'an honour it has offered no other living artist.'
0:09:08 > 0:09:10Well, like a lot of the people here,
0:09:10 > 0:09:14we're just making.. whatever Anish wants, really.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16It's quite a heavy piece, this one,
0:09:16 > 0:09:19because we want it to really keep its form.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21Just to be there, just floating, really.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23I tend to make it up to the point
0:09:23 > 0:09:26where it then starts getting finished.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30I sort of get the glory bit with Anish,
0:09:30 > 0:09:34because he's basically just really keen on the final finishes.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37He's not so interested in the process before that.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42He's sometimes really difficult to work with,
0:09:42 > 0:09:45so you've got to get into the state with him
0:09:45 > 0:09:48where he's happy with what he's looking at.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50So it's just a case of reading his mind,
0:09:50 > 0:09:52and that's not always very easy to do.
0:09:54 > 0:09:55At the moment, it's matt.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58It will be, I think, glossy.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00The paint, in fact, is...is...
0:10:00 > 0:10:03We've just sort of sanded it down
0:10:03 > 0:10:05and it's about to be polished.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07Of course, with any sculpture, I suppose,
0:10:07 > 0:10:10where you place yourself in relation to the body,
0:10:10 > 0:10:12in relation to the sculpture, alters things,
0:10:12 > 0:10:15but there are all kinds of things that change as you...
0:10:15 > 0:10:17as you walk around this object, aren't there?
0:10:17 > 0:10:20You can experience it in lots of different ways.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23As I turn this corner, I have a completely other experience.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25ANISH: The first thing is
0:10:25 > 0:10:27you realise it's a much longer object than you thought.
0:10:27 > 0:10:28So it's become bigger.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31ALAN: That journey took rather longer than I expected.
0:10:31 > 0:10:35ANISH: Yeah. But, also, it's little things,
0:10:35 > 0:10:38but the light's different there than it is here.
0:10:38 > 0:10:40- And the sound's different. - The sound's different.
0:10:40 > 0:10:45It's like the lens on the camera, where light crosses.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47I suggest that that's a kind of mystical moment,
0:10:47 > 0:10:48where things are different.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51They're different there than they are here.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07'The work is not bound by the studio walls.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09'In a shipyard in Holland,
0:11:09 > 0:11:12'one of the largest pieces in the exhibition is being assembled.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16'Made from Corten Steel,
0:11:16 > 0:11:19'Anish Kapoor is seeing it for the first time.'
0:11:26 > 0:11:28The first thing is, you know, does it work?
0:11:28 > 0:11:30Does it do what I set out to do?
0:11:30 > 0:11:31You know, I believe it does.
0:11:35 > 0:11:37These guys are great shipbuilders
0:11:37 > 0:11:39and, more important than anything else,
0:11:39 > 0:11:42they can hold these complex curves,
0:11:42 > 0:11:46hold to a particular geometry and have it be accurate.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49I must say, they've done a fantastic job.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56The issue I'm trying to deal with at the moment is how the object...
0:11:56 > 0:11:59how the skin of it is.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01Are we going to keep it black,
0:12:01 > 0:12:04or am I going to rust it?
0:12:04 > 0:12:06It's a hard decision.
0:12:06 > 0:12:07Sculpture, of course,
0:12:07 > 0:12:10is supposedly all about material,
0:12:10 > 0:12:12but material's a subtle thing.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15It makes a huge difference. So I want to go and see what's going on there.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18That's a little bit of a problem for me.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20'In order to choose the right finish,
0:12:20 > 0:12:23'he asks for some of the metal to be rusted,
0:12:23 > 0:12:26'so he can compare the two surfaces.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29'It requires a chemical to accelerate the process.'
0:12:29 > 0:12:32Can we get some in the next two hours?
0:12:32 > 0:12:36- We'll try. I will make a call. - OK!
0:12:36 > 0:12:39Really, I'd like to do this whole section.
0:12:39 > 0:12:40- Whole section? - Uh-huh.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42- We need a lot of it. - Yes.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44We need a lot more.
0:12:46 > 0:12:47There is a contradiction,
0:12:47 > 0:12:50because the material isn't made to go black,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53- the material is made to rust! - That's right.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13ANISH: There's something about its sort of muteness...
0:13:16 > 0:13:18..black, that I quite like.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26Fucking hard decision.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32'The installation begins at the Royal Academy,
0:13:32 > 0:13:34'and having decided on a finish,
0:13:34 > 0:13:37'the steelwork is reassembled in the central gallery.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49It's the biggest thing I've ever done in my career
0:13:49 > 0:13:51and I've been here for nine years, so...
0:13:51 > 0:13:52And I think, actually,
0:13:52 > 0:13:55it's been the biggest thing that the RA's ever had to handle, it seems,
0:13:55 > 0:13:57in terms of an installation.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59The logistics of getting it into the building are huge.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02I mean, we've got so many restrictions on size,
0:14:02 > 0:14:04and the dimensions of our lift.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07Getting the pieces actually into the building
0:14:07 > 0:14:10has been enormously difficult.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13It's definitely a huge, exciting thing to be involved in.
0:14:40 > 0:14:41ANISH: This kind of steel
0:14:41 > 0:14:44doesn't do black very well,
0:14:44 > 0:14:47so I...
0:14:47 > 0:14:49let it do what it does do well.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55There's a lot to do,
0:14:55 > 0:14:57a hell of a lot to do.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59A slight feeling of panic,
0:14:59 > 0:15:00but we'll get there.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03I think one has to have those two things in a certain balance -
0:15:03 > 0:15:05certainty,
0:15:05 > 0:15:07and, erm...
0:15:07 > 0:15:10a sense that...erm,
0:15:10 > 0:15:12you know, something is on a kind of edge.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20My father was a hydrographer in the Navy,
0:15:20 > 0:15:24so he was moved to a place called Dehradun,
0:15:24 > 0:15:27which is in north India,
0:15:27 > 0:15:28foothills of the Himalayas -
0:15:28 > 0:15:32at the time, an incredibly beautiful valley.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36But in the sticks. Out there.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39My brother and I went to the Doon School,
0:15:39 > 0:15:41which was a rather...
0:15:41 > 0:15:42how can I put it?
0:15:42 > 0:15:45- The Eton of India? - Indeed, a rather posh school.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47We were a bit different.
0:15:47 > 0:15:52In a way, we probably cherished that differentness.
0:15:52 > 0:15:54Were you interested in art as a child,
0:15:54 > 0:15:56and where did that come from?
0:15:56 > 0:15:59My parents were both extremely cosmopolitan.
0:15:59 > 0:16:04Music and art played a big role in our family.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08But I never imagined for one second that I would be an artist.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10I mean, it didn't even occur to me.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13My mother, you know, dabbled in fashion,
0:16:13 > 0:16:15and did some painting,
0:16:15 > 0:16:17but she could never finish anything,
0:16:17 > 0:16:21so I would always finish them for her, which I loved doing, too.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24I loved making things and I did that all through my childhood.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27Guns, it was bombs,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30it was all the stuff boys do, you know.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35'His mother was an Iraqi Jew,
0:16:35 > 0:16:38'and Anish, aged 17, went to work on a kibbutz with his brother
0:16:38 > 0:16:42'in the relatively young state of Israel.'
0:16:42 > 0:16:47So two young teenagers emigrate to Israel without their parents.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50And I suppose the Israeli government were recruiting,
0:16:50 > 0:16:54- I suppose, immigrants... - Yeah, they paid for us to go there,
0:16:54 > 0:16:57and we arrived - somewhat bewildered, I've got to say,
0:16:57 > 0:17:00more than somewhat bewildered -
0:17:00 > 0:17:02and went to a kibbutz.
0:17:02 > 0:17:06A beautiful kibbutz, Gan Shmuel.
0:17:06 > 0:17:11The context was that somewhere amongst the youth,
0:17:11 > 0:17:14this kind of communal living mattered
0:17:14 > 0:17:16and that we were going to make a new world in some way or the other,
0:17:16 > 0:17:19and as a naive 17-year-old, it was fabulous.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25'After three years in Israel,
0:17:25 > 0:17:26'he hitchhiked across Europe
0:17:26 > 0:17:30'and enrolled at Hornsey College in London to study art.'
0:17:31 > 0:17:36That, for me, was just a total sense of liberation.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39I felt like it was a true coming-home.
0:17:39 > 0:17:44It's the first time I was doing something that I truly loved.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47And I slowly started trying to see,
0:17:47 > 0:17:50what does it mean to be an artist? I never called myself an artist.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53I felt it was too big a responsibility.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55I didn't...
0:17:55 > 0:17:58In other words, it felt like a serious thing to me,
0:17:58 > 0:17:59really serious thing.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02I was massively over-sincere about it, I'm sure,
0:18:02 > 0:18:05but nonetheless, I'd never called myself an artist.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08I worked all the time that God gave,
0:18:08 > 0:18:11and I'd use anything.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14Plaster, which was cheap.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16I remember, many occasions
0:18:16 > 0:18:21I'd sweep the dust up from the corner of the studio and use it.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24I was beginning to be aware that, actually,
0:18:24 > 0:18:27my context was slightly different.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32I'd schooled myself in Western art.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35I didn't feel I wanted to be an Indian artist,
0:18:35 > 0:18:37I didn't quite know what it was going to be.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40'But it was a return visit to India
0:18:40 > 0:18:43'which provided the catalyst
0:18:43 > 0:18:45'that would lead him to early success.'
0:18:46 > 0:18:48ANISH: I made a trip in '79
0:18:48 > 0:18:54and, suddenly, many of the things that I'd been working with
0:18:54 > 0:18:55felt as if...
0:18:55 > 0:18:57"I know what that's about.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59"That's where it comes from," or, "That's how it relates."
0:18:59 > 0:19:03In Indian religion, there's so many parts of Indian life,
0:19:03 > 0:19:06that somehow I said, "Ah, I recognise that,
0:19:06 > 0:19:08"I know what that's about."
0:19:08 > 0:19:11And I came back, I started making objects with pigment.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14Very simple abstract forms.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34I always felt that, somewhere there,
0:19:34 > 0:19:36these things had a voice.
0:19:36 > 0:19:38It's the first time I had that feeling -
0:19:38 > 0:19:40"I don't have to go out and sell them.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42"It'll happen. Something will happen."
0:19:42 > 0:19:45I felt with great certainty,
0:19:45 > 0:19:47perhaps naively,
0:19:47 > 0:19:49but I was hugely certain about it.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54When I first got written about,
0:19:54 > 0:19:56or known as a young artist,
0:19:56 > 0:20:00people would often write of my work
0:20:00 > 0:20:03as if it was made by a female artist. To me, I loved that!
0:20:03 > 0:20:04- I loved that sense. - Yes, yes.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06There is a very feminine side to you.
0:20:06 > 0:20:08That kind of fragile thing.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11I hope that's what it is - I don't know!
0:20:12 > 0:20:16JULIA PEYTON-JONES: Anish's early work, the pieces made of powder,
0:20:16 > 0:20:20with those very extraordinary exotic shapes,
0:20:20 > 0:20:21drew one to them.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23They were a sort of source of wonder.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25Very, very beautiful.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27Very, very luscious.
0:20:27 > 0:20:28Very sensual.
0:20:28 > 0:20:30Very delicious.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35Those early pieces were unlike anything I'd ever seen.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39Colour in sculpture is fundamentally difficult,
0:20:39 > 0:20:42because sculpture's so much about form, about shape,
0:20:42 > 0:20:45about the turn, the feel, the texture, the weight.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49But perhaps what was characteristic of him was what pigment meant.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52In other words, the stuff of colour,
0:20:52 > 0:20:54pure colour, solid colour.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56That was very, very different
0:20:56 > 0:20:58and very, very intriguing.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01Both material and colour were one thing.
0:21:07 > 0:21:08'I met Kapoor in Brighton,
0:21:08 > 0:21:10'where I was reminded of
0:21:10 > 0:21:12'some of his early pigment works.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15'The same dark colours and familiar shapes,
0:21:15 > 0:21:17'but here on a much larger scale.'
0:21:19 > 0:21:23ALAN: You've called it The Dismemberment Of Jeanne d'Arc.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26ANISH: Mmm. One is literally walking in her,
0:21:26 > 0:21:28amongst her, through her...
0:21:28 > 0:21:29through her body.
0:21:29 > 0:21:34Now, I think the implication that the viewer is involved
0:21:34 > 0:21:37is something that's fundamental to sculpture.
0:21:37 > 0:21:43And also the way that one body, one person, responds to another.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45Precisely. It's about those memories that are in there,
0:21:45 > 0:21:47or in there, or in your stomach,
0:21:47 > 0:21:49as much as the ones that are in your head.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52It's as if this body is laid out
0:21:52 > 0:21:55in an almost religious way.
0:21:55 > 0:22:01Something to do with the way that one might go to Santiago de Compostela.
0:22:01 > 0:22:03You know, a kind of pilgrimage,
0:22:03 > 0:22:06the idea of a journey to an object,
0:22:06 > 0:22:08the journey to a place, a site.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11I think that's what sculpture...
0:22:11 > 0:22:13At least, that's the kind of sculpture I'm interested in.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18The colour red is a favoured part of your palette, isn't it? Why red?
0:22:18 > 0:22:20ANISH: Red makes a kind of black,
0:22:20 > 0:22:23makes a kind of black that blue doesn't.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26It's a black that you see when you close your eyes.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28It's something you know intimately,
0:22:28 > 0:22:30and it's that sort of knowing
0:22:30 > 0:22:33that I feel is the real subject of the work.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37- Darkness, sometimes? - Totally. Darkness all the time.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02A lot of his works seem to have a void,
0:23:02 > 0:23:03that you're looking out
0:23:03 > 0:23:05into this space without limit and without boundary
0:23:05 > 0:23:08and you don't know where you exist in relation to that.
0:23:08 > 0:23:10But it never feels like it's empty space,
0:23:10 > 0:23:15it always feels kind of weighted and like there's some life.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20You're struck, I think, with Anish's work,
0:23:20 > 0:23:23is how it engages you
0:23:23 > 0:23:24in a very generous way.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28A lot of the realisation of the work
0:23:28 > 0:23:30is happening through your response to it.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36HOMI BHABHA: One is always on the brink
0:23:36 > 0:23:39of being both inside the work,
0:23:39 > 0:23:40and outside the work.
0:23:41 > 0:23:45You're literally placed in relation to the void,
0:23:45 > 0:23:49on an edge between what you know and what you don't know.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52But you are also on edge
0:23:52 > 0:23:56in the more emotional... affective way.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58He engages not only the eye,
0:23:58 > 0:24:00he engages the nerves,
0:24:00 > 0:24:02he engages the emotions.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07Clearly, there's something about interior.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10I mean, here's a sculptor who produces
0:24:10 > 0:24:12blank, dark interior spaces.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15I mean, Henry Moore and Hepworth both made holes in sculpture,
0:24:15 > 0:24:18but Anish makes space inside sculpture,
0:24:18 > 0:24:21space that can envelop you just as you don't expect it.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25It's as if it's four-dimensional, not just three,
0:24:25 > 0:24:29that he produces time, because time is your time with it.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33And I think somewhere, that idea that time is a continuum
0:24:33 > 0:24:35and an experiential element,
0:24:35 > 0:24:38he finds a way of working that in.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48'A major work to be shown at the Royal Academy
0:24:48 > 0:24:51'has been brought out of storage.'
0:24:51 > 0:24:53That wasn't there before.
0:24:53 > 0:24:56- Yeah. That was there before. - No, it wasn't, I don't believe.
0:24:56 > 0:24:58Yeah. We didn't notice it last time.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00On every join, it's there.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03Doesn't matter whether it was there or not, we've got to get it out.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05Yeah, exactly.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07Whether we have to cut the whole bloody lot out and make a hole in it.
0:25:07 > 0:25:09- We may have to. - The problem is,
0:25:09 > 0:25:12it isn't just there, it's all along the whole of that edge.
0:25:12 > 0:25:16How can we be clear about this? No compromises.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18Please, don't tell me it can't be done, or...
0:25:18 > 0:25:21- I don't do that, you know us. - ..or some other fucking variation.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23When was the last time I told you that?
0:25:23 > 0:25:24Or some other bloody variation on a theme.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27No, it can't, because that's the work, there's nothing to it.
0:25:27 > 0:25:29It's a yellow nothing.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32- Well, it's better than it was... - That's right.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35- ..when it was up in there. - Bollocks!
0:25:40 > 0:25:43'The scale and ambition of Kapoor's work
0:25:43 > 0:25:45'presents great technical challenges.'
0:25:46 > 0:25:48Just wait here until it comes through, buddy.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51RADIO: 'Cross over when you get to the intersection and you want it.'
0:25:51 > 0:25:53ALAN: 'In New Zealand,
0:25:53 > 0:25:56'he's overseeing the installation of a new work
0:25:56 > 0:25:59'that will be built into the landscape.'
0:26:03 > 0:26:06ANISH: Somewhere deep in my heart
0:26:06 > 0:26:10is a Wagnerian will to the grand.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13I think, in the last few years,
0:26:13 > 0:26:15I feel I can handle a bit more of that.
0:26:17 > 0:26:19If that's tight, we can take this chain block off
0:26:19 > 0:26:21and nothing's going to slip.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23One, two, three.
0:26:23 > 0:26:28'Like much of his work, it's designed with the location in mind.
0:26:28 > 0:26:29'In this case, it must be secure enough
0:26:29 > 0:26:34'to withstand the weather conditions of the New Zealand coast.'
0:26:39 > 0:26:43We expect 120 mile an hour winds.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46We'd have the cable wires inside pockets.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53Really, it's a very careful bit of tailoring.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58I guess there's a lot of sail-makers here,
0:26:58 > 0:27:01so this is a specialist sail.
0:27:03 > 0:27:04I mean, what's important to me
0:27:04 > 0:27:06is the way it's all joined together,
0:27:06 > 0:27:07the tension,
0:27:07 > 0:27:09the sense that this thing
0:27:09 > 0:27:11could almost be made out of steel,
0:27:11 > 0:27:14that it's a drum, extremely taut
0:27:14 > 0:27:18and pulled to a very particular form.
0:27:31 > 0:27:35Fundamentally, I think I feel that I make art for myself.
0:27:35 > 0:27:36If it works for me,
0:27:36 > 0:27:40I make the assumption that it'll work for somebody else.
0:27:44 > 0:27:47There is some kind of a moment of recognition
0:27:47 > 0:27:50between what I know
0:27:50 > 0:27:52and what I see.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56And it's the quality and depth of that recognition
0:27:56 > 0:28:02that I think has something to do with the energy and meaning of a work.
0:28:12 > 0:28:15So, the first part of the show here is all about colour.
0:28:15 > 0:28:20So, we'll build it into the wall, so there's no...
0:28:20 > 0:28:23So, you say build it into the wall. So what happens?
0:28:23 > 0:28:25It's not an object in the space,
0:28:25 > 0:28:28but there's a wall all the way around it,
0:28:28 > 0:28:31and it's simply a kind of presence,
0:28:31 > 0:28:33a negative...a negative presence,
0:28:33 > 0:28:37but it's a very deep, deep yellow.
0:28:37 > 0:28:39It's that one.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42And the problem, of course, is to get it matt enough.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45It's a dreamy moment of yellow, I hope.
0:28:47 > 0:28:50ALAN: Did you think of the show in relation to these spaces?
0:28:50 > 0:28:52ANISH: Oh, definitely.
0:28:52 > 0:28:56It's a journey. I want to make a show that is about experience.
0:28:56 > 0:28:58OK.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13We need to either extend this cantilever,
0:29:13 > 0:29:14or something.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20Well, we're on day 23 of the installation.
0:29:20 > 0:29:23Adam's just about to start painting the yellow piece.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26He's been sanding for the last two weeks.
0:30:28 > 0:30:30Have you got them yet, the photographs from Dave?
0:30:30 > 0:30:33'It's when you come down to the nitty-gritty
0:30:33 > 0:30:35'of how things are done,
0:30:35 > 0:30:36'you know, all that stuff,'
0:30:36 > 0:30:38and how not to compromise.
0:30:38 > 0:30:40So that's, I think, the hard stuff.
0:30:40 > 0:30:44The hard bit is how not to compromise.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48And lose the real edge
0:30:48 > 0:30:52in practicalities that now confront us.
0:30:52 > 0:30:56And so I'm...I'm determined
0:30:56 > 0:30:59that that's not going to happen!
0:30:59 > 0:31:02How are you doing, Phil? Are you all right?
0:31:02 > 0:31:04The hard thing on a day like today
0:31:04 > 0:31:06is to find the time to just be quiet, really.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09Which is also necessary. Yeah.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16ALAN: What's your routine as an artist?
0:31:16 > 0:31:19ANISH! I think one has to have the courage to sit in an empty studio
0:31:19 > 0:31:22and wait for something to happen.
0:31:22 > 0:31:24Erm, and work,
0:31:24 > 0:31:27and play, and experiment,
0:31:27 > 0:31:30and try some daft idea out.
0:31:30 > 0:31:32For me, anyway, one has to dare.
0:31:32 > 0:31:35OK, I don't really know what I'm doing,
0:31:35 > 0:31:38but I'm going to go there so wholeheartedly
0:31:38 > 0:31:40that it feels inevitable.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43But perhaps the worst part of that is
0:31:43 > 0:31:47that I won't know what it's like until opening night.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52'As a young artist, it was representing Britain
0:31:52 > 0:31:55'at the Venice Biennale in 1990
0:31:55 > 0:31:58'that raised Kapoor's international profile.'
0:32:04 > 0:32:07ANISH: There, for the first time, was a proper world audience.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10I made a show that I feel pretty good about.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12It had wonderful impact,
0:32:12 > 0:32:14and changed my life, completely.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17Up till then, I think I'd felt that it was me
0:32:17 > 0:32:21kind of trying to tell people what it was I was doing.
0:32:21 > 0:32:25From that moment onwards, it was people telling me what I was doing!
0:32:27 > 0:32:28'The following year,
0:32:28 > 0:32:32'he scooped the ultimate endorsement for a young artist -
0:32:32 > 0:32:35'the prestigious Turner Prize.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38'His exhibition at the Hayward Gallery in 1998
0:32:38 > 0:32:39'crowned his achievements,
0:32:39 > 0:32:43'with a show that captured the imagination of the public.'
0:32:43 > 0:32:46His show at the Hayward remains, to this day,
0:32:46 > 0:32:48one of the most popular shows,
0:32:48 > 0:32:52in terms of the attendance of any show in the history of the Hayward.
0:32:52 > 0:32:54And I think this has to do, really, with...
0:32:54 > 0:32:57while it's quite complex work,
0:32:57 > 0:33:01it also has an immediate point of access,
0:33:01 > 0:33:03and it's immediately rewarding.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11'A new series of works are made from concrete.
0:33:12 > 0:33:15'These are a departure not just in style and material,
0:33:15 > 0:33:18'but also because they're made by machine.'
0:33:22 > 0:33:24Divide this in layers, but...
0:33:24 > 0:33:26- If I'm in a cross-section... - If we have...
0:33:26 > 0:33:30The problem is always to have enough space occupied round the edge...
0:33:30 > 0:33:32Yes.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35..so that we don't have to fill all of the middle with stuff.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38So on that plane, we go like that, then we go across there.
0:33:38 > 0:33:42But, in fact, we're building this circular, round edge.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45So let's say we start there, and we're going for that shape.
0:33:45 > 0:33:47Might do a bit of the shape there.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51Then we'll catch up a bit of it over here.
0:33:51 > 0:33:52- Yep. - Then we'll go across there,
0:33:52 > 0:33:54just because it's convenient.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57Catch a bit of it there, catch a bit of it here.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00- Yeah. - Maybe come back here.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02And so on.
0:34:04 > 0:34:08He loves the mistakes. I mean, for example, that big form over there,
0:34:08 > 0:34:10the huge cylindrical silo thing,
0:34:10 > 0:34:13where half of it has kind of collapsed during the process...
0:34:13 > 0:34:15Erm, that was not deliberate.
0:34:15 > 0:34:19That is, in fact, a mistake, but it's a mistake that Anish liked.
0:34:19 > 0:34:21They looked like they've been built
0:34:21 > 0:34:24by some strange kind of mindless termite or animal or something.
0:34:41 > 0:34:42You want to touch them.
0:34:42 > 0:34:43It's like putting the cream
0:34:43 > 0:34:46through one of those squeezy things with cooking.
0:34:46 > 0:34:50But they do make these extraordinarily exotic shapes.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53On the one hand, they're containers.
0:34:53 > 0:34:57On the one hand, they're architectural, they're sexual.
0:34:57 > 0:34:58But they're also scatological.
0:34:58 > 0:35:00And it's, I think,
0:35:00 > 0:35:04the combination of these very different feelings one gets,
0:35:04 > 0:35:06is partly what's so fascinating about it.
0:35:09 > 0:35:12The scale here is not in darkness or depth.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15The scale here is not in colour.
0:35:15 > 0:35:19But the scale lies in
0:35:19 > 0:35:23the way in which they all seem to be
0:35:23 > 0:35:26either miniaturisations
0:35:26 > 0:35:27of something much larger,
0:35:27 > 0:35:31or enlargements of something much smaller.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43'As a young man, Anish Kapoor began a psychoanalysis
0:35:43 > 0:35:46'which would continue for 15 years.'
0:35:46 > 0:35:48When you went into analysis,
0:35:48 > 0:35:50was it a moment of crisis -
0:35:50 > 0:35:54therefore you felt you had to kind of understand yourself better -
0:35:54 > 0:35:57or actually just explore deeper?
0:35:57 > 0:36:00Psychoanalysis helped me to understand
0:36:00 > 0:36:04some of the roots to, erm...
0:36:04 > 0:36:08erm, taking an inner life properly seriously.
0:36:08 > 0:36:13And saying that, erm, you know, it is, after all,
0:36:13 > 0:36:17the thing from which all the rest emerges,
0:36:17 > 0:36:24even though the work doesn't give it biographical space,
0:36:24 > 0:36:27in the same way that perhaps many other artists do.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29- Yes. - It's that curious balance,
0:36:29 > 0:36:30if you like,
0:36:30 > 0:36:33between recognising that, you know,
0:36:33 > 0:36:35without it, there's nothing.
0:36:35 > 0:36:38And, at the same time, it's not on display.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45When an object gets to be in this kind of state,
0:36:45 > 0:36:47it's as if it's unreal.
0:36:47 > 0:36:49The space is difficult to read.
0:36:49 > 0:36:51What's happening, of course,
0:36:51 > 0:36:53is that you don't know how to read the surface,
0:36:53 > 0:36:56cos it's very difficult to know what's going to happen.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58I mean, I have no idea.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01I could easily have done this, and found myself hitting a solid.
0:37:01 > 0:37:03In that sense, the artist,
0:37:03 > 0:37:07making us look with more sort of insight,
0:37:07 > 0:37:09with more curiosity,
0:37:09 > 0:37:11at the world, at ourselves...
0:37:11 > 0:37:14Because, as you say, much of what's going on
0:37:14 > 0:37:17is happening out there, but a lot of it is happening here.
0:37:17 > 0:37:19Precisely. So, is this Alan?
0:37:19 > 0:37:24We don't know. That is one bit, but there's other bits.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27Objects behave in a very similar way, the skin of an object.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30I've often worked with the notion of the skin of an object.
0:37:30 > 0:37:35The skin of an object, erm, tells you about its history,
0:37:35 > 0:37:37about its materiality,
0:37:37 > 0:37:39about its physicalness.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42The skin is often an illusion.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44- It's only a surface. - Precisely.
0:38:04 > 0:38:05People love The Bean
0:38:05 > 0:38:08because they can see themselves in it,
0:38:08 > 0:38:10they can see the city in it.
0:38:10 > 0:38:14It has great optical illusions when you're inside.
0:38:16 > 0:38:19It sort of plays with your mind in all kinds of fun ways.
0:38:21 > 0:38:22A bit like a woman -
0:38:22 > 0:38:25outside, smooth and beautiful,
0:38:25 > 0:38:29inside, complex and, perhaps, deceiving.
0:38:38 > 0:38:42It has a nice, pleasant, I don't know...
0:38:42 > 0:38:43It gives me a pleasant feeling.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47NEW SPEAKER: It's smooth, it's mirror-like.
0:38:47 > 0:38:51It's really round, in all kinds of ways.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55This is a very iconic skyline.
0:38:55 > 0:38:58To see it in the skin of The Bean is, I think, really special.
0:39:00 > 0:39:04NEW SPEAKER: Outside - smooth, round, organic, oval.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07Inside - a kind of wormhole.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10NEW SPEAKER: You see all these different bits and pieces
0:39:10 > 0:39:11of colour coming together,
0:39:11 > 0:39:14reflected by all the people around.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16Kaleidoscopic.
0:39:16 > 0:39:19There's a lot of things that you could say about it.
0:39:19 > 0:39:21The spirit of Chicago has always been our skyline,
0:39:21 > 0:39:23architecture and history.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26The Magic Bean is beautiful.
0:39:28 > 0:39:32We encourage people to touch The Bean.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34In fact, we clean it every day.
0:39:34 > 0:39:38It's part of the budget, to have to clean it.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41People love to take their picture with their hand on it.
0:39:41 > 0:39:47It's hard to conceive that this object could land here in the park
0:39:47 > 0:39:51and people just don't understand how it happened
0:39:51 > 0:39:53and how it can be so perfect.
0:39:53 > 0:39:56So the idea was to build these 168 individual pieces
0:39:56 > 0:40:01and you couldn't even stick a pin between the two adjoining plates
0:40:01 > 0:40:03but when you start welding it,
0:40:03 > 0:40:05this was an exacting science.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08If there was any imperfection at all,
0:40:08 > 0:40:11it would be manifested in the surface, and Anish did not want that.
0:40:11 > 0:40:13We had no idea what it would cost.
0:40:13 > 0:40:17Our first thought was maybe 3 million.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20The budget was 9 million, it cost 23 million.
0:40:27 > 0:40:29RICHARD DALEY: I'm glad they took their time,
0:40:29 > 0:40:30I think, anything like that,
0:40:30 > 0:40:32you take your time
0:40:32 > 0:40:35because if you rush it, you don't appreciate it at the end.
0:40:35 > 0:40:39You're trying to do something that's not natural.
0:40:42 > 0:40:44They captured the essence of Chicago,
0:40:44 > 0:40:49that whole skyline represent the whole immigration -
0:40:49 > 0:40:51people who work with their hands,
0:40:51 > 0:40:54architects, engineers who built the beautiful skyline.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59He captured the past, the present, and, of course, the future.
0:41:03 > 0:41:05I think Anish's work is very accessible to the general public
0:41:05 > 0:41:08because it's not based on
0:41:08 > 0:41:11a script that you need to know
0:41:11 > 0:41:12that isn't evident in the work.
0:41:12 > 0:41:16There's a lot of artwork that's about something else,
0:41:16 > 0:41:19or it's making reference to a historical event.
0:41:19 > 0:41:23And Anish's work is very much engaged with perceptual issues.
0:41:23 > 0:41:26Anyone who has eyes can experience it
0:41:26 > 0:41:30and be taken somewhere through their experience of that work.
0:41:32 > 0:41:34I think it's a leap that Anish made
0:41:34 > 0:41:37about getting the spectator fully into the work.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40Scale is a danger for sculpture
0:41:40 > 0:41:43because, go big, and you become monstrous.
0:41:43 > 0:41:47But I think, with Anish's work, there was always something,
0:41:47 > 0:41:50on one hand, kind of extravagant and perhaps libidinous
0:41:50 > 0:41:53that there's always somewhere, maybe, an erotic element.
0:41:53 > 0:41:55Even when he got larger,
0:41:55 > 0:41:58you still felt there could be something
0:41:58 > 0:42:01that was quite close and quite immediate.
0:42:01 > 0:42:05And, therefore, I think his control of scale has been absolutely perfect.
0:42:06 > 0:42:09There's this element of...
0:42:09 > 0:42:13a serious element of the unconscious operating in a lot of this.
0:42:14 > 0:42:18It seems to me that there's no other reason to be an artist.
0:42:19 > 0:42:22You know, if I know what I know and you know what you know
0:42:22 > 0:42:25and I tell you what I know, who cares?
0:42:26 > 0:42:29My instinct is
0:42:29 > 0:42:33that making work is about... um...um...
0:42:33 > 0:42:36daring to go
0:42:36 > 0:42:38to something I don't know,
0:42:38 > 0:42:42and hoping, that in going where I don't know,
0:42:42 > 0:42:45you, the viewer,
0:42:45 > 0:42:47can go where you don't know too.
0:42:51 > 0:42:53There's a kind of psychodrama going on, in a way.
0:42:53 > 0:42:56Machine that's shooting into the other room.
0:42:56 > 0:42:59You know, it's blatantly sexual.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02It's violent.
0:43:02 > 0:43:04It's aggressive.
0:43:04 > 0:43:05It seems to be saying
0:43:05 > 0:43:08that the act of making a mark
0:43:08 > 0:43:11anywhere, in anything, is an act of violence,
0:43:11 > 0:43:15and that there's something about that which is poetic.
0:43:23 > 0:43:27- Wow. - I could try one in reverse.
0:43:27 > 0:43:29Go on. Do it. Do it.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32We've just got to experiment. This is going to take a bit of doing, really.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47What's the doorframe made of?
0:43:51 > 0:43:54I think it's a great work. Dare I say!
0:43:54 > 0:43:58It's a nice way to make a painting.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01Oh, I don't know, I feel good about it, actually.
0:44:02 > 0:44:06It takes me back to a really early work I made
0:44:06 > 0:44:07when I was a student.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10In fact, on some level
0:44:10 > 0:44:12this work goes to the very core
0:44:12 > 0:44:15of anything I've ever done as an artist.
0:44:21 > 0:44:23HE SIGHS
0:44:25 > 0:44:27The anticipation and the relief!
0:44:30 > 0:44:33I don't particularly have anything to say as an artist.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36I don't have some grand message that I want to give you.
0:44:36 > 0:44:37For me, the work,
0:44:37 > 0:44:40it's neither abstract
0:44:40 > 0:44:41nor is it not abstract.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44It sits in between meaning and no meaning.
0:44:44 > 0:44:46Apparently, it's just a form
0:44:46 > 0:44:49and then, well, maybe it's not just a form.
0:44:49 > 0:44:52It looks like, relates to,
0:44:52 > 0:44:55feels like something I know.
0:44:55 > 0:44:59The route to meaning may not be direct.
0:44:59 > 0:45:00That's one route to meaning
0:45:00 > 0:45:03and that's the other route to meaning, if you know what I mean.
0:45:20 > 0:45:23'A block of wax is relentlessly pushed
0:45:23 > 0:45:26'through the archways of the Royal Academy,
0:45:26 > 0:45:28'leaving a trail of debris.
0:45:28 > 0:45:33'It's called Svayambh, which means "self-generated".'
0:45:44 > 0:45:48Is it true, I read somewhere that Konchalovsky's film Runaway Train
0:45:48 > 0:45:51was something which sort of was in your head, with this?
0:45:51 > 0:45:53Definitely.
0:45:53 > 0:45:56The violence of it, first of all.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59This thing going through a snowy landscape,
0:45:59 > 0:46:02collecting stuff, dropping stuff.
0:46:02 > 0:46:07And I'm so there, physically there.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10So, it really, deeply influenced me.
0:46:24 > 0:46:29'Anish Kapoor wanted to create a show about experience.
0:46:29 > 0:46:33'It has been a huge success, but will he leave his mark here
0:46:33 > 0:46:37'when the wax, steel and concrete have been taken away?'
0:46:39 > 0:46:41I think all great works of art
0:46:41 > 0:46:44occupy spaces in between existing categories.
0:46:44 > 0:46:48You can look at some of Anish's mirrored pieces, say,
0:46:48 > 0:46:49and say, "What's the difference
0:46:49 > 0:46:53"between looking at a fun-house mirror and this work?"
0:46:53 > 0:46:56And I think an artist like Anish is very conscious
0:46:56 > 0:46:59of straddling these kinds of boundaries
0:46:59 > 0:47:03between a work that has a popular reference
0:47:03 > 0:47:07but is also very much asking questions
0:47:07 > 0:47:10about how do we distinguish between what's a physical experience
0:47:10 > 0:47:12and a metaphysical experience?
0:47:21 > 0:47:23Of course the public are fascinated by it
0:47:23 > 0:47:26because he speaks about the human condition.
0:47:26 > 0:47:29And it's really what makes great art,
0:47:29 > 0:47:33is that it resonates with us all, it touches something within us.
0:47:33 > 0:47:34It fascinates us.
0:47:34 > 0:47:39We recognise ourselves in objects that he makes.
0:47:39 > 0:47:41And that is an extraordinary achievement.
0:47:52 > 0:47:54The terminology of the spiritual
0:47:54 > 0:47:57is always going to be tricky because what does spiritual mean?
0:47:57 > 0:47:59We don't really know what it means.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03But if we think of there being a dimension away from the rational
0:48:03 > 0:48:05and towards the emotional or the emotive,
0:48:05 > 0:48:09then I think we can at least track that edge of experience.
0:48:14 > 0:48:18You may or may not immediately feel emotional about it,
0:48:18 > 0:48:22'but you feel it's powerful in its effect on you.
0:48:22 > 0:48:24You can't get away from it.
0:48:24 > 0:48:27Unless you're going to back off, you have to confront it,
0:48:27 > 0:48:29you are forced to feel something.
0:48:41 > 0:48:44ANISH: Just as you can't make something beautiful,
0:48:44 > 0:48:47or set out to,
0:48:47 > 0:48:50you also can't set out to make something spiritual.
0:48:50 > 0:48:52What you can do
0:48:52 > 0:48:56is recognise that it may be there.
0:48:57 > 0:48:59It normally has to do
0:48:59 > 0:49:02with not having too much to say.
0:49:04 > 0:49:07There seems to be space for the viewer
0:49:07 > 0:49:10and that's something that we sometimes identify
0:49:10 > 0:49:12as being spiritual.
0:49:13 > 0:49:15And it's all about space.