0:01:25 > 0:01:31The life in the pictures are the people themselves. It's definitely human studies.
0:01:31 > 0:01:36- <- The Migrants and Marilyn, you want together - it's the same area.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39We didn't mind back-tracking a bit.
0:01:39 > 0:01:44My problem is - what does it say, and does it make sense?
0:01:44 > 0:01:49I would say a certain consciousness I see from the photographs...
0:01:49 > 0:01:52and an awareness of...
0:01:52 > 0:01:54humanity.
0:01:54 > 0:01:59- What about the queen being on the left and the bobbies on the right?- >
0:01:59 > 0:02:02The queen is ALWAYS on the right.
0:02:02 > 0:02:04THEY LAUGH
0:02:04 > 0:02:07And you walk out backward.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11It's not posed. It's like she happens upon it.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15She is versatile. She has an eye for many things.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19These two get lost on this big wall...
0:02:19 > 0:02:22'I fell into photography by accident.
0:02:22 > 0:02:27'Practically everything I did for the first few years was by chance.'
0:02:27 > 0:02:30..Cos you've got this big wall here.
0:02:30 > 0:02:36'I've always felt the difference between a fine and an average photographer
0:02:36 > 0:02:42'is having the wit to take advantage of the chance of what's going on.
0:02:42 > 0:02:47'I figured they were my children - the bad, the good and the medium!'
0:02:47 > 0:02:51- That one's good! - Oh, yes!
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Stop admiring your pictures!
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Who else is gonna do it if I don't?
0:03:11 > 0:03:16I first met Eve when she came to Ireland
0:03:16 > 0:03:19to talk to my father about The Misfits.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23I worked on... eight or nine of Huston's films.
0:03:23 > 0:03:29I was going to make this film with my father. I was about 15 years old...
0:03:29 > 0:03:32John asked me to photograph her.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36To launch my... rather dim career at the time!
0:03:36 > 0:03:41He had had, um...Bailey... I shouldn't name him!
0:03:41 > 0:03:44He had two photographers photograph her.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47Norman Parkinson and David Bailey.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51I was very prone to wearing a lot of make-up,
0:03:51 > 0:03:53which wasn't appropriate
0:03:53 > 0:03:59for a... a 15th-century heroine.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02She looked about 40, so I lit her dramatically.
0:04:02 > 0:04:07I was in Ireland and Eve was brought into the picture.
0:04:07 > 0:04:12I dressed her colourfully and we went to Ireland where she was happy.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16And I remember our going out to a ruined castle
0:04:16 > 0:04:19in a Kenneth Noland dress.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22And...very quietly,
0:04:22 > 0:04:26and succinctly, as was her way,
0:04:26 > 0:04:28she proceeded to take photographs.
0:04:28 > 0:04:33I remember being tortured by my physical image -
0:04:33 > 0:04:36anything I thought really resembled me.
0:04:36 > 0:04:43So, of all the photographs that were taken for the movie, Eve's were my least favourite
0:04:43 > 0:04:46because they look the most like me.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52Now, I would say they're quite fresh and sweet.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56What's odd about those photographs
0:04:56 > 0:04:59is I don't remember her recording those moments.
0:04:59 > 0:05:06At that time, I remember my relationship with my father being mostly frictional.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09I'm shocked at how "sweet" they are.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15She recorded the apologetic side of me.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18 The part that was reluctant.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21All of those things that I was feeling.
0:05:21 > 0:05:27You look at images of yourself that destroyed you in your youth
0:05:27 > 0:05:31that now appear sort of...lovely!
0:05:31 > 0:05:35Eve is the fly on the wall with the very round eyes
0:05:35 > 0:05:39that sees all the permutations and sees all of the aspects.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43- WOMAN:- It takes me on a level, too.
0:05:43 > 0:05:48- Do we need it?- Yeah!
0:05:50 > 0:05:52It talks about your photo origins.
0:05:52 > 0:05:57I don't know why I asked my son's nursemaid about fashion in Harlem.
0:05:57 > 0:06:02She told me there were 300 fashion shows a year with paid audiences.
0:06:26 > 0:06:33'The thing that I find incredible is to be here after all these years.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36'This church was very important in this.'
0:06:36 > 0:06:39So where would the girls be coming from?
0:06:39 > 0:06:43They would come from here or here,
0:06:43 > 0:06:46singly or sometimes in a long parade.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50All in this very narrow space. It was incredible.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53They would stride across here.
0:06:53 > 0:06:57There were a few like fabulous Charlotte Stibling -
0:06:57 > 0:06:59she was stunning.
0:06:59 > 0:07:03When I first came in, she was swinging along the catwalk.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07When she saw me, she started to mince
0:07:07 > 0:07:09like white women did.
0:07:09 > 0:07:14They would stop and pose - that's what she did when she saw me.
0:07:14 > 0:07:19In those days, she had a suitcase of hairpieces that were all colours.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22She was THE big model of the year.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26- Corsets...- But gorgeous ones!
0:07:26 > 0:07:32They designed them and made them themselves with great style.
0:07:32 > 0:07:38There's a lot to be said about style. We all have our own style.
0:07:38 > 0:07:43Harlem's been known for years and years for its wonderful style.
0:07:43 > 0:07:47All you have to do is come to church on any Sunday
0:07:47 > 0:07:50to see what style is!
0:07:50 > 0:07:54I remember very well Yves Saint Laurent said...
0:07:54 > 0:08:00He was the only designer when I started modelling in 1975
0:08:00 > 0:08:05who used black girls in abundance - in any shape, in any colour,
0:08:05 > 0:08:09light-skinned, dark-skinned and anything in between.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12He was totally inspired by Harlem.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15An ordinary worker would earn 10 a week.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19They would pay 3 to see the show.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22So it was more like an entertainment?
0:08:22 > 0:08:25It was that and it was a social evening,
0:08:25 > 0:08:28a kind of a coming together
0:08:28 > 0:08:30of black peoples.
0:08:30 > 0:08:35It was something that was highly personal and original, and theirs.
0:08:35 > 0:08:42The shows were the only time where black models had a chance to take flight, to show what they can do.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46But we were never considered as beauties for photography.
0:08:46 > 0:08:52What they were doing and the clothes they were making was a social protest.
0:08:52 > 0:08:59They didn't want any part of the shmatte trade in New York. They stayed far away.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03If they bought fabric, they bought it in Harlem.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07If they bought patterns, they bought them in Harlem.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11It was almost impossible to place this story,
0:09:11 > 0:09:15so it went to Britain to be published.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18It was never published in the US.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21Whether it is photography or music,
0:09:21 > 0:09:26it still had to go through Europe to return to America to be celebrated.
0:09:27 > 0:09:32- When were you last there? - Not since the '60s...
0:09:32 > 0:09:35early '61 maybe.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38And I must say I am concerned
0:09:38 > 0:09:42cos I hear there are quarter-acre plots all over the place.
0:09:42 > 0:09:48But I hope the character and some of the people have remained as was.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52I don't know where it is.
0:09:53 > 0:09:57It WAS a white house - it could be anything now!
0:09:57 > 0:10:00This is the house.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03It was with regret that I left it,
0:10:03 > 0:10:06but I wouldn't have had the big world otherwise.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09I'd have stayed in suburbia.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13It's a wonderful mix of going out into the big REAL world,
0:10:13 > 0:10:19and then there's an isolated community where nothing happened.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23I'm David Davis. My family's been here for generations.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27My father started the peach orchard in 1910.
0:10:27 > 0:10:31My grandfather raised potatoes and cauliflower.
0:10:31 > 0:10:36I remember you taking a picture of me with a couple of baskets of eggs.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39I was hoping to get it in Life magazine!
0:10:39 > 0:10:44There were so many people who did so many things within the community.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46They were all called Davis.
0:10:46 > 0:10:50Margaret Davis looked after the local library.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53The local postmistress was a Davis.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55One of them ran the grocery shop.
0:10:55 > 0:11:00Some had been to Harvard College. There was a whole mixture.
0:11:00 > 0:11:05I would photograph various aspects of their lives.
0:11:07 > 0:11:12I used it to learn to photograph, to get close to people.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17- Who's this?!- Marion Smith -
0:11:17 > 0:11:19she lived across the street.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22I don't know who THAT was...
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Bob Madson... That's our daughter!
0:11:24 > 0:11:28- That's your daughter?! - That's me, with child.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30Oh, God!
0:11:30 > 0:11:33- It's like old friends! - That's my father!
0:11:37 > 0:11:40You know, you change, you grow, you develop,
0:11:40 > 0:11:43but these are basically OK.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45I would still edit them.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49Some are better than others. Some I'd do differently.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53The technique would be different cos I'd be using 35mm.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56In the '50s, I worked with 120 film.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58And so...
0:11:58 > 0:12:00the framing and sizing is different,
0:12:00 > 0:12:05but I think emotionally I haven't changed and nor have these people.
0:12:05 > 0:12:10I look at them as what they are - my early work.
0:12:10 > 0:12:14And I look at them in terms of my neighbours, friends,
0:12:14 > 0:12:17and with nostalgia and affection.
0:12:18 > 0:12:25People were very good to me. I loved them all and it was great to be here.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31Well, I hope it won't be another 34 years...
0:12:31 > 0:12:33before I see you again.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37- You know! - Thank you. I'll send you a book.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41I'll be around. We'll try and find Margaret.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44- Good.- All right?- OK.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Much love!
0:13:01 > 0:13:09In your 50 years, what pivotal events framed your life?
0:13:09 > 0:13:14My work and - I guess - my life, historically came about
0:13:14 > 0:13:18in the same way that picture journalism, historically...
0:13:18 > 0:13:20It parallels what happened.
0:13:20 > 0:13:24So in the '50s, we worked in black and white.
0:13:24 > 0:13:29We worked with a square format, and we experimented in colour.
0:13:29 > 0:13:34In the '60s, we worked with colour AND black and white.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38And the pivotal thing for me was my moving to England.
0:13:38 > 0:13:43And then in the '70s, you couldn't earn a living in picture journalism.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46In the '80s, it was black and white.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49Now there's a new approach to photography.
0:13:49 > 0:13:53Mechanical things are taking over from the emotional.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57Now it's time to examine where we were,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00and to look forward and see where we go.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03I tried to use
0:14:03 > 0:14:05whatever was in me
0:14:05 > 0:14:07to make things work for me.
0:14:07 > 0:14:12Because your own experience and ideas get transformed, hopefully,
0:14:12 > 0:14:18into something you can hold in your hand, representing what you've seen.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22What's the best example of that in your early work?
0:14:23 > 0:14:24Probably...
0:14:24 > 0:14:28a story on the birth of a child.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32I had lost a child
0:14:32 > 0:14:34in the early -
0:14:34 > 0:14:37not so early - mid-stages of pregnancy,
0:14:37 > 0:14:41and was horrified and saddened and distressed.
0:14:41 > 0:14:43I used that.
0:14:43 > 0:14:48I spent four months in a hospital photographing the birth of children
0:14:48 > 0:14:53and wound up by doing just the first five minutes.
0:14:53 > 0:14:58That intense time when the child is brought from the womb's security
0:14:58 > 0:15:03into the outside world, and what happens for that five minutes
0:15:03 > 0:15:07when the child is weighed and slapped and measured...
0:15:07 > 0:15:11That five minutes took five months.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13And did it feed or heal your pain?
0:15:13 > 0:15:16No, I think it helped.
0:15:16 > 0:15:21In the beginning, I thought it was crazy to go to the pain's source.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25But after, I saw that life goes on.
0:15:25 > 0:15:31I'm proudest of this self-portrait cos that's a bitch to do!
0:15:31 > 0:15:33Is it the crinkled edges?
0:15:33 > 0:15:38Well, it's a paper print. The only one I've got like this.
0:15:38 > 0:15:42But it's nice to have looked like that once!
0:15:42 > 0:15:48Early on, it was pretty awful. A guy had a magazine called Cahiers.
0:15:48 > 0:15:55He said, "Goody! You'll be able to go into the dressing room with the actresses!"
0:15:55 > 0:16:00That's when I got mad and started doing political stuff like McCarthy.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04It was a dangerous thing to go near him.
0:16:04 > 0:16:09- Was there a certain amount of "I'll show you!"?- Always.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11They're relaxin'.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14They have very lost looks.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17They don't seem to want to be there
0:16:17 > 0:16:20or even know where they are!
0:16:20 > 0:16:27It looks very European, very homey. I'd like to be with that one - he's kinda cute.
0:16:27 > 0:16:32I don't even know if these guys are alive or dead.
0:16:32 > 0:16:33Oooh!
0:16:33 > 0:16:35It looks like an insane asylum.
0:16:35 > 0:16:37Ohh!
0:16:37 > 0:16:39This I can't figure out.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42Two nuts and a tyre!
0:16:42 > 0:16:44What they're doing, I have no clue.
0:16:44 > 0:16:51I think they need a caption for this. It's not a joke. It's a political picture.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55These two men are political prisoners in Moscow,
0:16:55 > 0:16:59in an insane asylum, being treated as if they are insane
0:16:59 > 0:17:02because they were dissidents.
0:17:02 > 0:17:06This was a most unusual photograph to get.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09I asked about Soviet psychiatry
0:17:09 > 0:17:14and so I was very proudly taken to one of the great hospitals.
0:17:14 > 0:17:19While the man who was showing me through went to the phone,
0:17:19 > 0:17:22I peeped through a door and took it.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26The Russians were enraged when it appeared in a French magazine.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29I hit a period in Russian politics
0:17:29 > 0:17:35when Khrushchev was out and Brezhnev hadn't taken over.
0:17:35 > 0:17:40So I could slide in when nobody knew what was happening in the hierarchy.
0:17:42 > 0:17:44So they let me do things
0:17:44 > 0:17:49that were quite incredible for that period.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53I worked in jails where they kept juvenile delinquents,
0:17:53 > 0:17:55police courts...
0:17:55 > 0:17:59We did things that were remarkable for their day.
0:17:59 > 0:18:03Now I see my stories on the jails reproduced -
0:18:03 > 0:18:09the young going in shooting now are doing what I did in '66.
0:18:09 > 0:18:14She'd come back from Washington or China
0:18:14 > 0:18:18and I was just old enough to appreciate what she'd done.
0:18:18 > 0:18:23We sat in a darkened room and she'd project the crude stuff, unedited,
0:18:23 > 0:18:28occasionally out of focus or the exposure would be wrong.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31The whole thing glowed and was gorgeous.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33Er...that's Malcolm.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36He's got his Nation of Islam ring,
0:18:36 > 0:18:39his watch, his glasses,
0:18:39 > 0:18:42his signature hat.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45It looks like he's deep in thought but relaxed.
0:18:45 > 0:18:47Malcolm X?
0:18:47 > 0:18:51Denzel Washington, actually.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55The scariness of being a minority within a minority.
0:18:55 > 0:19:00It's great, but that Nation of Islam shit - they're so fucking homophobic.
0:19:00 > 0:19:06I like this - the ring, the Star of Islam here at his pineal gland.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09It's the Malcolm X you don't see often.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13The whimsical side of him which you don't see, ever.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16Maybe it's a moment of...
0:19:16 > 0:19:19relaxation, in a way.
0:19:19 > 0:19:25I read a doctoral thesis called The Black Moslem In America.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27I got intrigued and followed it up.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31I met Malcolm X and he was extraordinary.
0:19:31 > 0:19:36He could prove almost anything he chose with sheer sophistry.
0:19:37 > 0:19:42Malcolm knew she was an extraordinary person
0:19:42 > 0:19:46because at that time you didn't have...
0:19:46 > 0:19:52It was...no white women and there weren't too many white fellas.
0:19:52 > 0:19:56I would go to the Black Moslems' meetings
0:19:56 > 0:20:01and find myself with cigarette burns in the back of my sweater.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04I was always wise enough to wear a woollen sweater
0:20:04 > 0:20:08because wool doesn't burn, it smoulders.
0:20:08 > 0:20:14When I'd come back from a session, it'd be polka-dotted with burns.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16She had that ability to charm.
0:20:16 > 0:20:21She may have been crying inside, but she was smiling outside.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25I was not trying to be political on any score,
0:20:25 > 0:20:30but I couldn't help having certain interests and certain sympathies
0:20:30 > 0:20:37because the ideas don't go in your ears into your head and out of your ears and that's it.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41What happens is you think about these people.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44They mean a great deal to you.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48As I kept going, I kept adding more and more.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53I wound up in South Africa in the end!
0:20:53 > 0:20:55It was a very tough time -
0:20:55 > 0:20:59before Mandela was released and the changes came -
0:20:59 > 0:21:03photographing children dying of kwashiorkor.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09The book was banned in South Africa.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13The newspapers carried this great big story
0:21:13 > 0:21:18that it was banned because of Vanessa Redgrave's bottom.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22I don't see anything taboo about it.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24- Sex.- Sex.
0:21:24 > 0:21:25Sexy!
0:21:25 > 0:21:28There's nothing wrong with 'em!
0:21:28 > 0:21:31It'sthe beautiful ass of awoman.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34It'sinteresting! Who doesn't like a pretty rear end?
0:21:34 > 0:21:38IwishIcouldseeherback andshoulders!
0:21:38 > 0:21:41Actually, the book had been banned
0:21:41 > 0:21:45because it showedchildren weredying ofmalnutrition.
0:21:45 > 0:21:49And I was so angry whentheycalled me.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52They said, "What is your comment?"
0:21:52 > 0:21:55And I said,
0:21:55 > 0:21:58"TheRedgrave pictures arenotobscene.
0:21:58 > 0:22:02"What IS obscene isthepoverty ofthese black people,
0:22:02 > 0:22:06"andthat these kids aredyingofstarvation!"
0:22:06 > 0:22:10She came back from South Africa feeling distraught.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14She wasaffected by what she saw. Look at the photographs.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21Did she and does she have apolitical ideology?
0:22:21 > 0:22:26No. She has a point of view thatcomes across strongly.
0:22:29 > 0:22:35I grew up in a generation wherewomen had a given role.
0:22:35 > 0:22:40You were in the kitchen withthechildren,
0:22:40 > 0:22:43you were "subservient" to the man.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46And my mother found that
0:22:46 > 0:22:50Iwastrying to break out of anareathat I shouldn't have.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53She thought it was "ashunder"
0:22:53 > 0:22:58which wasYiddishforsomewhere between a disgrace and ashame.
0:22:58 > 0:23:03It was shameful for me towork. My husbandshould besupportingme.
0:23:03 > 0:23:09I had a husband who supported me, but so that I could learn tobeaphotographer.
0:23:09 > 0:23:14She was very embarrassed - what would theneighbourssay?
0:23:14 > 0:23:20She was poor her whole life and wanted for me what she hadn't had.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23It was generous, butitwasn'twhatI wanted.
0:23:23 > 0:23:27When she saw one ofthebigstories that I did -
0:23:27 > 0:23:31the firstfiveminutes ofababy'slife -
0:23:31 > 0:23:36she looked at it and a neighbour said,"Aren'tyouof proud of Eve?"
0:23:36 > 0:23:38She said, "Uh."
0:23:38 > 0:23:42- Was "uh" a compliment? - Thatwasa BIG compliment!
0:23:42 > 0:23:45She'd accepted it by that time.
0:23:45 > 0:23:50Did she then go on tobecomeinterested and involved?
0:23:50 > 0:23:53Or did itstay intherealmsof"uh"?
0:23:53 > 0:23:55It was always grudging.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59It was never, "Isn'tthiswonderful?!" No.
0:23:59 > 0:24:04Shefeltthatlifewastoohard for me and she wanted it easier.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07But I didn't.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11OK, that's for my mom!
0:24:11 > 0:24:13Hello!
0:24:13 > 0:24:16I'm very honoured to meet you!
0:24:16 > 0:24:21- I'm honoured to be here!It's wonderful!- I hope it'scolourful!
0:24:21 > 0:24:26Nobodywould everquestionthat! Isabella's not here?
0:24:26 > 0:24:30- She will be shortly. > - I'll get to work.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33'It always amazes me
0:24:33 > 0:24:38'how with two eyes, a mouth and a nose,
0:24:38 > 0:24:41'a pair of eyebrows and some hair,
0:24:41 > 0:24:44'you can bring so many infinite variations.
0:24:45 > 0:24:47'If you're sincere
0:24:47 > 0:24:50'about what you are doing -
0:24:50 > 0:24:53'and give the sense you know what you're doing -
0:24:53 > 0:24:59'then it's possible to receive from someone in front of your lens.'
0:25:05 > 0:25:10'When I shoot, I start with behind the scenes if I can.
0:25:10 > 0:25:14'Then, by the time the action takes place,
0:25:14 > 0:25:18'the hope is the subject will have forgotten you're there.'
0:25:23 > 0:25:26I can't believe it, we're here!
0:25:27 > 0:25:30Oh, my God!
0:25:37 > 0:25:40Right... Isabella...
0:25:43 > 0:25:46Wait until I get my camera!
0:25:49 > 0:25:54'Sometimes there's a great sense of excitation - you know you've got it.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57'It's within one frame or another.'
0:25:57 > 0:25:59Isabella, give me some...stuff!
0:25:59 > 0:26:06'They're only successful if they reveal something I would not have expected to be given.'
0:26:06 > 0:26:08Move your arms!
0:26:08 > 0:26:11'It's a collaboration between you both.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15'If people know how to read a photograph,
0:26:15 > 0:26:18'they know what's being said.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21'If they don't, I try and put it in the caption!'
0:26:33 > 0:26:34Enough!
0:26:34 > 0:26:37She's not just a pretty face!
0:26:37 > 0:26:40We'll have a vitrine under here.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43- Uh-huh.- And one under the brides.
0:26:49 > 0:26:55And let's not forget the various colours drawn on...
0:26:55 > 0:26:58Let me just look first. Please!
0:26:58 > 0:26:59OK?
0:27:08 > 0:27:12Somebody offered me a recording session of Marlene Dietrich
0:27:12 > 0:27:15at Columbia Records.
0:27:15 > 0:27:22That was extraordinary because she knew more about lighting and the camera than I will ever learn.
0:27:22 > 0:27:24She was extraordinary.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28And it went on for about six hours.
0:27:28 > 0:27:33She was recording the songs she made famous during the War.
0:27:33 > 0:27:38# Want to buy some illusions?
0:27:38 > 0:27:40# Slightly used
0:27:40 > 0:27:42# Second-hand
0:27:44 > 0:27:48# They were lovely illusions
0:27:48 > 0:27:52# Reaching higher
0:27:52 > 0:27:55# Built on sand... #
0:27:55 > 0:27:59When I saw her in front of the mike singing those songs,
0:27:59 > 0:28:01I thought I'd never get it right.
0:28:01 > 0:28:08I was too small, the camera was always there, it was a problem for other people.
0:28:08 > 0:28:12Do you have any memory of being over the tray
0:28:12 > 0:28:18and watching the photograph coming up and seeing your first photograph of Marlene?
0:28:18 > 0:28:22There's a thrill that you'll never experience!
0:28:22 > 0:28:26It's like making love the first time - if you get a good lover!
0:28:26 > 0:28:32It was just incredible. You get a sense of power that you have.
0:28:32 > 0:28:35And also a sense of apprehension,
0:28:35 > 0:28:39because when it comes up, it might be wonderful, it might be terrible.
0:28:39 > 0:28:43But the miracle itself is something never to forget.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47- Listen, this is not Madam O'Neill.- No, no!
0:28:47 > 0:28:52- That's why I thought I'd lost my mind.- I was pointing to that one.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55- That's, er...- Silvana Mangano.- Right.
0:28:55 > 0:28:59I sometimes think I would like to give a party
0:28:59 > 0:29:06and all the people I've photographed would come and tell me what they thought of their pictures.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12I've found many things on this beach -
0:29:12 > 0:29:14shells,
0:29:14 > 0:29:17all kinds of logs and beach wood.
0:29:17 > 0:29:22But the most incredible thing I've found, is one day
0:29:22 > 0:29:28I found Marilyn Monroe walking along with Norman Rosten, the poet.
0:29:28 > 0:29:32Norman came over and said, "Remember Marilyn?!"
0:29:32 > 0:29:36I remembered Marilyn - she was a starlet when I met her.
0:29:36 > 0:29:41We'd met at a cocktail party given for John Huston.
0:29:41 > 0:29:44She was brought over and introduced.
0:29:46 > 0:29:50She'd just seen a picture that I'd done for Marlene Dietrich
0:29:50 > 0:29:58and she said, "You did so well with Marlene, can you imagine what you could do with me?!"
0:29:58 > 0:30:04ANJELICA HUSTON: When I think about her photographs from that period -
0:30:04 > 0:30:07those fantastic portraits of Marilyn...
0:30:07 > 0:30:12Marilyn in black and white was staggering -
0:30:12 > 0:30:14her legs a little fat,
0:30:14 > 0:30:17her eyes quite sad.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19Marilyn imperfect...
0:30:19 > 0:30:21Perfectly imperfect!
0:30:23 > 0:30:26These are intimate moments
0:30:26 > 0:30:29which somehow she records
0:30:29 > 0:30:32within the moment.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35The flirtatiousness,
0:30:35 > 0:30:38and her need to be womanly and sexy
0:30:38 > 0:30:40never obtained with me.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45We had a professional friendship
0:30:45 > 0:30:47that went on.
0:30:47 > 0:30:53It was matter of trust too - this is what you have to gain.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56If they trust you not to savage them,
0:30:56 > 0:30:59to make sure they come out honestly,
0:30:59 > 0:31:01then a great deal is given.
0:31:01 > 0:31:09She had a means of making you feel that her vulnerability was your problem, not hers.
0:31:09 > 0:31:11And so, over the years -
0:31:11 > 0:31:18of course I did photograph her and we did get together and have wonderful times together -
0:31:18 > 0:31:23there was always that sense that maybe I was "Mommy"
0:31:23 > 0:31:26and she was "little girl lost".
0:31:26 > 0:31:28And I found that irritated me
0:31:28 > 0:31:33cos I didn't want to be Mommy and I didn't want her to be lost!
0:31:33 > 0:31:37I'm not gonna lie down! No, thank you very much!
0:31:37 > 0:31:43We collaborated. I don't remember where I began and she ended.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46She was always having bright ideas.
0:31:46 > 0:31:50It was always her session. It was never mine.
0:31:50 > 0:31:55It was never the photographer's. She was in charge. She loved it.
0:31:55 > 0:32:01She didn't have lines to learn or any worries. She was in charge of things.
0:32:01 > 0:32:03Very sexy.
0:32:03 > 0:32:07You mean the fact that she's not all revealed?
0:32:07 > 0:32:12They're not showing everything, just pieces. It's even better.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15I can see she's thinking about something
0:32:15 > 0:32:17as opposed to her typical smile.
0:32:17 > 0:32:22I see my wife doing that every day! They're no different!
0:32:22 > 0:32:24She's just a bit, er...
0:32:24 > 0:32:26revealed
0:32:26 > 0:32:28in some places here.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31It's less glamorous. It's, er...
0:32:31 > 0:32:37more down-to-earth than when you see her wearing a voluptuous dress.
0:32:37 > 0:32:39- Extremely different.- Why?
0:32:39 > 0:32:45Because you see her so often gentle, you don't see her Madonna-like.
0:32:45 > 0:32:51She seems serene, doing something for herself instead of for the world.
0:32:51 > 0:32:56When I started, nobody wanted that kind of thing.
0:32:56 > 0:33:01I wasn't the only one doing it, but I was one of the first.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05And the problem was the producers of the films were worried
0:33:05 > 0:33:10because they kept saying, "You're killing the illusion!
0:33:10 > 0:33:15"We're building dreams and you're giving us nightmares!"
0:33:15 > 0:33:20But when they saw how much space they could command in magazines,
0:33:20 > 0:33:22all that shifted.
0:33:22 > 0:33:27Then suddenly it was OK not to take somebody into a studio,
0:33:27 > 0:33:32to show them in an everyday, very humane and human situation.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35So the whole thing changed.
0:33:35 > 0:33:39You can look at an artist's work and see an evolution.
0:33:39 > 0:33:46And you can see there are things that will speak all the way through the work.
0:33:46 > 0:33:51There's, um... there's a path travelled, if you will.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54And...and...and, um...
0:33:54 > 0:33:57an obligation from the heart
0:33:57 > 0:34:00to improve the world, if you will.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03Something that innocent.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07And it is...it does have to do with the innocent eye.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10I suppose what Eve is good at
0:34:10 > 0:34:14is to give us a real view of what is there,
0:34:14 > 0:34:19not what people want to pretend themselves is there.
0:34:19 > 0:34:25Often, that's more appealing than the image people wish to project.
0:34:25 > 0:34:29What about the light-heartedness and the not-so?
0:34:29 > 0:34:33Well, let's try it with the other one.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38- Put that one there.- Put this one...
0:34:38 > 0:34:40That goes!
0:34:40 > 0:34:43We'll lose her.
0:34:43 > 0:34:48Bob Gottlieb will hit me! He loves that one!
0:34:48 > 0:34:51She was a nice girl from Philadelphia.
0:34:51 > 0:34:55It never occurred to her to be a photographer.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58Next she's the first woman at Magnum!
0:34:58 > 0:35:05You have presented yourself to the world - even as a beautiful young thing -
0:35:05 > 0:35:09as a dear old lady who could mean no harm to anybody
0:35:09 > 0:35:12and who just by luck has turned up.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15No! You're over-stating the case!
0:35:15 > 0:35:20It's like what you said before - this little girl from Philadelphia.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23This combination of her ability,
0:35:23 > 0:35:26her determination to do good work,
0:35:26 > 0:35:29covered over by the self-deprecation,
0:35:29 > 0:35:32the modesty,
0:35:32 > 0:35:35is a very unique circumstance.
0:35:35 > 0:35:40I was not aware that I was moving backward into the shadows.
0:35:40 > 0:35:45But if you're a stills photographer, don't make a big thing of yourself.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48It's your subject who is important.
0:35:48 > 0:35:53So that you do become, after a while, recessive within the process.
0:35:53 > 0:35:57So that I could get Marilyn Monroe
0:35:57 > 0:36:02or Joan Crawford to strip down, to do anything without saying a word.
0:36:02 > 0:36:07They were figuring out what would be good to give ME.
0:36:07 > 0:36:12Joan Crawford in explaining what I was, said, "She has balls!"
0:36:12 > 0:36:15I wouldn't go that far.
0:36:15 > 0:36:18Look, I've made some changes over here.
0:36:18 > 0:36:23What I've done is... There's more impact in horribleness
0:36:23 > 0:36:26if we go from here to here, to here.
0:36:26 > 0:36:30 She's examining herself, deciding what's gonna happen to her,
0:36:30 > 0:36:33goes in, gets herself bandaged up,
0:36:33 > 0:36:36does her make-up,
0:36:36 > 0:36:39and that's what she looks like when she's finished.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41Very macabre.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45I think it's a stronger way of doing it.
0:36:45 > 0:36:50'In 1959, I had an idea I'd like to do a big story on her.
0:36:50 > 0:36:55'I was working for Life magazine and I suggested it.
0:36:55 > 0:36:57'And I called her
0:36:57 > 0:37:01'and she was right back to me from California -
0:37:01 > 0:37:06'"Yes, I want to be photographed by you. It's wonderful!"'
0:37:06 > 0:37:13Then she said, "I want to go into the dark room with you the way Marilyn went in with Avedon."
0:37:13 > 0:37:18It meant she wanted control. So I said, "I'll talk to my editors."
0:37:18 > 0:37:20I suggested we didn't do her
0:37:20 > 0:37:24because you wouldn't be able to do anything.
0:37:24 > 0:37:26At any rate, um...
0:37:26 > 0:37:32she called Henry Luce - head of Life - in the night and she said
0:37:32 > 0:37:37"that Arnold woman" wouldn't give her control of her pictures.
0:37:37 > 0:37:43He then was furious, called his editor and said, "Give her whatever she wants!"
0:37:43 > 0:37:50They called me up and said, "She can have it!" And I said, "Not over my life, buddy!
0:37:50 > 0:37:53"That's no way to do it!"
0:37:53 > 0:37:57I said we should wait and see if she changed her mind.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59Three hours later she called.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03She said, "Darling!" in these dulcet tones, of course!
0:38:03 > 0:38:10And then she said, "But...if I don't like what you do, you'll never work in Hollywood again!"
0:38:31 > 0:38:35She wanted the public to see how difficult it was
0:38:35 > 0:38:38to stay at the top of that heap.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41Some things were so awful.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44but I photographed cos she wanted them.
0:38:44 > 0:38:51She posed in the nude at her request, which I returned to her cos I wouldn't use it.
0:38:51 > 0:38:55Something happens to flesh after 50. It was cruel to do it.
0:38:55 > 0:39:02You'd be hard-pressed to find a photographer who'd return those transparencies nowadays.
0:39:02 > 0:39:09I guess I'm talking about integrity, taste and a kind of respect for the subject matter.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12Crawford was the result of her publicity.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15The sadness was she believed it.
0:39:15 > 0:39:19When it came to somebody like Marilyn, it destroyed her.
0:39:19 > 0:39:25It was fine while she had the fantasy that she'd be a movie star,
0:39:25 > 0:39:32- but when that became the reality, she couldn't live with it. - It still didn't make her happy?
0:39:32 > 0:39:37No, because it was false, unreal, and not what she expected.
0:39:37 > 0:39:42She expected it to be the end of the rainbow and it wasn't.
0:39:42 > 0:39:46Have you mentioned the Crawford and the Marilyn?
0:39:46 > 0:39:49I did some plain people, too!
0:39:49 > 0:39:55My next question is - did you have equally important male subjects?
0:39:55 > 0:39:57Not over a long stretch like that.
0:39:57 > 0:40:01There are many men I've photographed -
0:40:01 > 0:40:05four British prime ministers... and one woman - Maggie Thatcher!
0:40:05 > 0:40:10- By mistake!- That was no mistake! God what a day!
0:40:10 > 0:40:15She was the toughest person I've ever had to photograph.
0:40:15 > 0:40:21It went on for almost a year. She'd stand in the sun and squint.
0:40:21 > 0:40:24And it was just so difficult.
0:40:24 > 0:40:29Thatcher, thinking, "This is a woman. I can push her around!",
0:40:29 > 0:40:34kept saying, "Shoot me from this angle, shoot me from that angle!"
0:40:34 > 0:40:39That wouldn't work, and Eve did what Eve wanted to do.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42There were very few females.
0:40:42 > 0:40:46Luckily for me, I was smaller than everybody else.
0:40:46 > 0:40:53At a news event you'd get a phalanx of men and they'd always say, "Come on, Eve, up front!"
0:40:53 > 0:40:58It was a plus! Nobody thought I knew what I was doing, including me.
0:41:00 > 0:41:06I look at your career, and you were so resourceful in figuring out what to do.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09I want words of wisdom from you.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12How can that resourcefulness be applied now
0:41:12 > 0:41:16so we can aspire to do what you did in our own way?
0:41:16 > 0:41:22If it's any comfort to you, my colleagues - younger ones -
0:41:22 > 0:41:24both in Britain and here that I see,
0:41:24 > 0:41:28are having it as tough as you are.
0:41:28 > 0:41:30But they are shooting!
0:41:30 > 0:41:33Picture journalism isn't going to go away.
0:41:33 > 0:41:38It's like when television came in, we thought radio would disappear.
0:41:38 > 0:41:42When photography came in, the artist said,
0:41:42 > 0:41:46"As of today, art is dead."
0:41:46 > 0:41:49It wasn't. It just took on different forms.
0:41:49 > 0:41:53I was in the same spot as you when I started.
0:41:53 > 0:41:55Nobody was willing to pay for it,
0:41:55 > 0:41:58and it was even tougher
0:41:58 > 0:42:03cos you knew that there was a venue and you might never hit it.
0:42:03 > 0:42:08But...I don't know what to say by way of encouragement
0:42:08 > 0:42:10except that...do it!
0:42:10 > 0:42:14It's the most wonderful thing in the world -
0:42:14 > 0:42:18to hold it in your hand after you've done it.
0:42:34 > 0:42:36In 1969,
0:42:36 > 0:42:42I started a series of picture stories on veiled women.
0:42:42 > 0:42:46From that came a request from NBC and BBC
0:42:46 > 0:42:49to make a film in harems in Arabia.
0:42:57 > 0:43:00I hadn't made a script.
0:43:00 > 0:43:03I had my storyboard from my stills
0:43:03 > 0:43:06and I figured I'd play it by ear.
0:43:06 > 0:43:11But I couldn't have done it without doing it in stills first.
0:43:14 > 0:43:19First, I thought film was just a series of stills stuck together.
0:43:19 > 0:43:24Then I thought I knew better after I started working on the film.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27I felt like a celibate who'd found sex.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30Here there was sound and motion -
0:43:30 > 0:43:33all the things I'd never had with stills.
0:43:33 > 0:43:41It became a disappointment cos it took so much in material and people and involvement and money.
0:43:41 > 0:43:47Things I didn't have to be concerned about when I was working with stills
0:43:47 > 0:43:52and there was me and some cheap rolls of film, and I was on my own.
0:43:52 > 0:43:56What is more interesting than the film itself,
0:43:56 > 0:43:59is that I could get into a harem.
0:43:59 > 0:44:03I got the co-operation of these people in Dubai
0:44:03 > 0:44:06who invited me to the wedding of the crown prince.
0:44:06 > 0:44:11That meant I could move about and do all sorts of things.
0:44:11 > 0:44:13The Chinawoman goes here.
0:44:13 > 0:44:19Everything else China here is gonna to be those six prints
0:44:19 > 0:44:22plus the three prints.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25- We have no room.- It'll be crowded.
0:44:25 > 0:44:30- We better start cutting.- Unless we put a second China over here.
0:44:30 > 0:44:33- So we'll work that way. - OK, that's good.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36Maybe even a stack.
0:44:36 > 0:44:40Maybe even a stack. Maybe even a stack!
0:44:40 > 0:44:44It looks like Chinese royalty or something.
0:44:44 > 0:44:47I don't know if Chinese royalty wear earrings!
0:44:47 > 0:44:50It's an old Korean woman.
0:44:50 > 0:44:56Um... She appears to be smiling, but she's not smiling at the same time.
0:44:56 > 0:44:58This woman brings wisdom.
0:44:58 > 0:45:02Yeah, I would love to get some wisdom from her.
0:45:02 > 0:45:06Very old. A lot of expression on her face.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09A lot of character. Er...
0:45:09 > 0:45:11A lot of pain, maybe.
0:45:11 > 0:45:14Looking death in the eye.
0:45:14 > 0:45:16It's like looking into a pond.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19Absolutely! I'll buy this one!
0:45:19 > 0:45:24It's absolutely gorgeous! I wish I could take a picture like that!
0:45:24 > 0:45:29She was on the cover of my book in China.
0:45:29 > 0:45:32I had pneumonia when I photographed her.
0:45:32 > 0:45:36The doctors let me out to get some air.
0:45:36 > 0:45:41I was in a boat and I saw her in a doorway and I moved over.
0:45:41 > 0:45:44We looked at each other through the lens.
0:45:44 > 0:45:51That was one shot. How many times does it take normally to get a single shot?
0:45:51 > 0:45:53It was fortuitous.
0:45:53 > 0:45:56She was curious about me.
0:45:56 > 0:46:01My grandchildren think it's me, but I don't have wrinkles in my nose!
0:46:02 > 0:46:07I read about China for 15 years before I got my visa.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10For me, it was a dream realised,
0:46:10 > 0:46:15and it was important for me to look very hard to make sure
0:46:15 > 0:46:18that I credited these people
0:46:18 > 0:46:21with a kind of warmth and humanity
0:46:21 > 0:46:24that I thought they had.
0:46:24 > 0:46:29I wanted to dispel the idea of all those Mao shirts.
0:46:29 > 0:46:32I was very well-prepared for China -
0:46:32 > 0:46:38all that reading, all that thinking, which I abandoned when I got there.
0:46:38 > 0:46:43She's been to China, to Afghanistan, to Arabia, to South Africa,
0:46:43 > 0:46:46all over the United States...
0:46:47 > 0:46:50And that's an enormous body of work
0:46:50 > 0:46:54in an enormously various set of circumstances.
0:46:54 > 0:46:57And she's used black and white, she's used colour.
0:46:57 > 0:47:03She's developed some techniques in colour that at that time were new.
0:47:03 > 0:47:07And I think it's a catholicism - the breadth of vision -
0:47:07 > 0:47:09above all else.
0:47:42 > 0:47:44It is gorgeous!
0:47:44 > 0:47:47- I'm so glad!- What a beautiful job!
0:47:47 > 0:47:50- <- Are you...?
0:47:50 > 0:47:53This is Eve Arnold!
0:47:53 > 0:47:55I am SO impressed!
0:47:55 > 0:47:57Thank you!
0:47:57 > 0:48:01- She's an impressive lady! - Your photographs...!
0:48:01 > 0:48:06You can put yourself in them and feel those feelings!
0:48:06 > 0:48:08What a show!
0:48:08 > 0:48:13I know every one of them. It's just like you came home again!
0:48:13 > 0:48:17I was thinking about you just the other day!
0:48:17 > 0:48:19- Ian!- Ian Holm!
0:48:24 > 0:48:26How are you?
0:48:26 > 0:48:30I just love your work! I mean like - ohh!
0:48:30 > 0:48:32It gets inside me!
0:48:32 > 0:48:37I think it's a sacrifice to do what I've done.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40I've lost a lot and I've gained a lot.
0:48:40 > 0:48:45The whole business of being on the road, which you are as a journalist,
0:48:45 > 0:48:47takes a great deal.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50I've had less of my son,
0:48:50 > 0:48:55part of the failure of my marriage was due to that...
0:48:57 > 0:49:02But I still have time with my grandchildren. I'm catching up now!
0:49:02 > 0:49:05You've got the family at the end.
0:49:05 > 0:49:12- BRITISH ACCENT:- 'I've always known she was special, I suppose. Special in terms of being famous.'
0:49:12 > 0:49:18I always had her books around the house.
0:49:18 > 0:49:21At the age of about ten or eleven
0:49:21 > 0:49:28I realised that she was special in terms of world-famous photography.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31The most important thing I learned from her
0:49:31 > 0:49:36was that it's important to know how to look at something
0:49:36 > 0:49:40rather than just how to photograph something.
0:49:40 > 0:49:42To be able to see it.
0:49:44 > 0:49:46So was it good?
0:49:46 > 0:49:49It was good. It was really good.
0:49:49 > 0:49:55I was touched because there were a lot of people who came from...
0:49:55 > 0:49:59Somebody from California, my family from Washington...
0:50:00 > 0:50:03Michael and Francis from London!
0:50:03 > 0:50:05It was really good.
0:50:05 > 0:50:09I don't know! I had one woman crying over me!
0:50:12 > 0:50:15She was so touched by the photographs.
0:50:15 > 0:50:17A lot of work,
0:50:17 > 0:50:20a lot of attention to detail,
0:50:20 > 0:50:24a lot of disappointment and a lot of joy.
0:50:29 > 0:50:32And do you feel that this is a summary?
0:50:32 > 0:50:35Yes, it's a milestone.
0:50:35 > 0:50:39I feel if I never pick a camera up, I've done it!
0:50:39 > 0:50:41It's, um...
0:50:41 > 0:50:44It's kind of an assessment...
0:50:44 > 0:50:46of a look back.
0:50:46 > 0:50:50But I don't feel as though I'm living in the past.
0:50:50 > 0:50:53It's just a look for now.
0:50:53 > 0:51:00And I think a sense of wanting to go on with something else.
0:51:00 > 0:51:05Maybe as far away from what I've done as I can get.
0:51:06 > 0:51:08So did you get an A-plus?
0:51:08 > 0:51:11I haven't been graded yet!
0:51:11 > 0:51:14An assessment without the grade, right?!
0:51:14 > 0:51:16Still.
0:51:16 > 0:51:21I spoke to a lot of people tonight who were very moved by the work.
0:51:21 > 0:51:25And seeing it myself tonight, I was pretty moved.
0:51:25 > 0:51:28But you know it so well!
0:51:28 > 0:51:32But it's walking around all those rooms
0:51:32 > 0:51:35and seeing how far, and how many, and who.
0:51:35 > 0:51:38It was a pretty great night!
0:51:38 > 0:51:41It's not over yet - we're gonna have dinner!
0:51:41 > 0:51:44- Let's go!- Let's go! Onto the bus!
0:51:45 > 0:51:48It's a punishment!
0:51:48 > 0:51:51It's those feet, that's all!
0:51:51 > 0:51:56They say old boxers and old photographers, the feet go first!
0:51:59 > 0:52:02What's going on? You see these...?
0:52:51 > 0:52:56Subtitles by Mark Thomas BBC - 1996