0:00:05 > 0:00:07Archive programmes chosen by experts.
0:00:07 > 0:00:09For this collection, Janet Street-Porter has selected
0:00:09 > 0:00:12programmes about post-war architecture.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14More programmes on this theme
0:00:14 > 0:00:18and other BBC Four collections are available on BBC iPlayer.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22MUSIC PLAYS
0:01:11 > 0:01:14This is a film about houses, about the kind of suburban houses
0:01:14 > 0:01:18that many of us live in, and it's about the man who designs them.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22It's the portrait of an architect in the context of his work
0:01:22 > 0:01:24and the work is seen from three angles,
0:01:24 > 0:01:27three elevations, if you like.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29These viewpoints comment upon each other
0:01:29 > 0:01:32and provide the counterpoint of the film.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34There's the inside, the residents' angle,
0:01:34 > 0:01:36the view of the people who live in the houses.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40MAN: ..be related to your own personality can be exaggerated.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44I mean, I don't feel that my own personality or freedom
0:01:44 > 0:01:48is diminished by any control on the external appearance of my house.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51And If I thought that it was dependent on such a thing,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54I'd think my own individuality was pretty weak.
0:01:54 > 0:01:58I mean, we must have exhausted the number of smug bastards
0:01:58 > 0:01:59there are in London...
0:01:59 > 0:02:01NARRATOR: There's the view of a writer and critic.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03This is Ian Nairn.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06And principally, of course, there's the architect's own viewpoint,
0:02:06 > 0:02:10his own feelings about what he's trying to do.
0:02:10 > 0:02:12First, then, the subject.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15Eric Lyons. Now in his middle 50s.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18Behind him, work in architecture and industrial design.
0:02:18 > 0:02:21In front of him, two enormous projects -
0:02:21 > 0:02:25a commuter village in Kent and an urban complex in Chelsea.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29His main achievement so far - a radical alteration in the concepts
0:02:29 > 0:02:32and the look of suburban housing.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Lyons' most personal work has been done in an area
0:02:35 > 0:02:37rarely touched by major architects -
0:02:37 > 0:02:40the area of private speculative building.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42In conjunction with the development firm Span,
0:02:42 > 0:02:47he's attempted to bring new standards to the business of suburban housing.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50His schemes are characterised by their imaginative formal design,
0:02:50 > 0:02:54by the use of landscape and, perhaps most of all,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57by the way in which they make a virtue out of a necessity.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01Britain is an overcrowded island. We all live close to one another.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03Lyons' idea of suburban living
0:03:03 > 0:03:04is that we should accept this fact
0:03:04 > 0:03:07and make the most of it, not ignore it.
0:03:07 > 0:03:09In fact, the more we are together
0:03:09 > 0:03:13and the more we recognise we are together, the happier we shall be.
0:03:15 > 0:03:22Over the years I've found myself more and more...interested in...
0:03:22 > 0:03:24you know, the suburban idea, if you like.
0:03:24 > 0:03:30Not for a lot of suburban values, but the potential in suburban life.
0:03:30 > 0:03:32Maybe because I'm a product.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34MUSIC PLAYS
0:04:44 > 0:04:47I personally feel that one ought to try and identify the limits that
0:04:47 > 0:04:53you can really go to in packing buildings onto the ground
0:04:53 > 0:04:55without going up.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59And I believe that a lot of architects' obsession at the moment
0:04:59 > 0:05:03with doing this and achieving privacy,
0:05:03 > 0:05:06which they believe is number-one human need,
0:05:06 > 0:05:07and I question very much -
0:05:07 > 0:05:11it's one human need but it isn't number one in my view.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13And so that, you know,
0:05:13 > 0:05:18the buildings that are produced have certainly the privacy of a jail.
0:05:18 > 0:05:23They... But they don't have any more social content
0:05:23 > 0:05:27or any kind of...um...
0:05:27 > 0:05:31opportunities for contact with people in the more casual way.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34As far as I'm concerned, we've always tried
0:05:34 > 0:05:38and probably erred on the other side of exposing people too much.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40But we're learning more. We...
0:05:40 > 0:05:42I think we're more sensitive to some of the problems
0:05:42 > 0:05:45and the need for compromise on this business of being able to see out
0:05:45 > 0:05:47and yet to be able to hide when you want to hide.
0:05:47 > 0:05:49I think it's the option that you want to build in.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53And, in fact, option is the clue to what housing should be about.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56To me, it's one of the clue words, you know,
0:05:56 > 0:05:58that people should be able to make
0:05:58 > 0:06:01an act of choice in their housing,
0:06:01 > 0:06:04that they should opt out of being a matey neighbour
0:06:04 > 0:06:06if they don't want to be.
0:06:06 > 0:06:11And they can opt in on, you know, gregarious activities
0:06:11 > 0:06:14when they want to, and this is what life's all about.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16People should be able to choose...
0:06:16 > 0:06:19not choose once and for all, they should be able to vary their choice.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22And now the alternative - not the alternative, the opposite -
0:06:22 > 0:06:25is, of course, the detached house in the suburbs
0:06:25 > 0:06:27where the land is freehold
0:06:27 > 0:06:31and "every man's home is his castle" myth perpetuated,
0:06:31 > 0:06:35and the pretence that there's no-one living next door at all for miles.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37And actually the other chap is only three feet away.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40This manifestly doesn't work
0:06:40 > 0:06:42and directly you start recognising
0:06:42 > 0:06:44that you're building houses together anyhow,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47the sensible thing is to design them in group terms.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51This is where it all started, Parkleys at Ham Common.
0:06:51 > 0:06:54I remember the estate going up 12 years ago.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57I remember the delight that, for the first time,
0:06:57 > 0:07:00modern architecture seemed to be something that could actually happen
0:07:00 > 0:07:01on the ground,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04not just be a bit of exhibition design.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07But here for the first time there was someone who really seemed to
0:07:07 > 0:07:08enjoy his architecture
0:07:08 > 0:07:12and provide an environment that people would really like to be in.
0:07:12 > 0:07:17The biggest thing about Lyons is that he has a superb visual imagination.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21I'd only think of two or three other architects in the whole country
0:07:21 > 0:07:25whose sensibility I would trust.
0:07:25 > 0:07:30You can see it here clearly enough in the sequence of dissolving courts.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34It's a masterly...play
0:07:34 > 0:07:37where you suddenly go out of one place into another.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39There's always something around the corner.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41It's not all laid out statically.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45You can see it in the landscaping and...
0:07:45 > 0:07:49Lyons' landscaping and buildings are all part of one thing.
0:07:49 > 0:07:50Again, before this happened,
0:07:50 > 0:07:54we just didn't think that it could happen in England.
0:07:54 > 0:07:59And...he had so much fun with his material. This tile hanging.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01which was the...
0:08:01 > 0:08:03I think the first attempt after the war,
0:08:03 > 0:08:07except for one or two tiny private houses, to revive it.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10The coloured panels, the little balconies.
0:08:10 > 0:08:14All these have been done elsewhere and done badly,
0:08:14 > 0:08:19but here and in most of the other schemes, all the...
0:08:19 > 0:08:21what you might call the fancy tricks have come off.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24He's a natural fancy designer, and that's a very rare thing.
0:08:24 > 0:08:30No house is an island and you can't pretend there isn't one next door.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34And while it didn't matter at all where houses were widely scattered,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38if this chap painted his house red, white and blue stripes,
0:08:38 > 0:08:41or did it gothic, and this one something else,
0:08:41 > 0:08:42it didn't matter.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44In fact, it was rather fascinating,
0:08:44 > 0:08:46because space between the houses,
0:08:46 > 0:08:50was large enough to carry, you know, forest trees and so on.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53But once the buildings come together
0:08:53 > 0:08:56you can't just pretend that there isn't a relationship.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58There is a real relationship.
0:08:58 > 0:09:03And we don't seek to make things uniform.
0:09:03 > 0:09:08It's a peculiar 20th-century idea that your house has to represent you.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11And as far as ordinary men are concerned,
0:09:11 > 0:09:15it never has occurred in history before. It's a novel notion.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21And I don't... And I think it's been rather unfortunate.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24People often say Eric Lyons is a pretty-pretty architect.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28Well, the cedars here at this estate in Templemere
0:09:28 > 0:09:30in Weybridge disprove that
0:09:30 > 0:09:34because they are something like three times the height of the houses.
0:09:34 > 0:09:36They were part of the original landscape,
0:09:36 > 0:09:38and he's had the, yeah, genius
0:09:38 > 0:09:42to really get hold of it, seize them, make a grand gesture here.
0:09:42 > 0:09:47This man, in many ways, combines the decorative knack of a Nash
0:09:47 > 0:09:49and the landscape knack of a Repton.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52Pretty high words, but I think it's justified.
0:09:52 > 0:09:53LYONS: We seek to,
0:09:53 > 0:09:57and I've attempted even on our Templemere scheme at Weybridge,
0:09:57 > 0:10:00to create a purposefully fragmented
0:10:00 > 0:10:06and differential appearance on the general collection of small houses.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09But my idea there was to try and get a larger scale
0:10:09 > 0:10:12by obscuring the small elements.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16Because of the complication that I've achieved by recession and movement
0:10:16 > 0:10:18to get a larger scale,
0:10:18 > 0:10:22it does make the space have a lot of elegance that it wouldn't have had.
0:10:22 > 0:10:27It means that things like the big cedar trees can have their own scale
0:10:27 > 0:10:30and don't look as though they're dwarfing little houses,
0:10:30 > 0:10:32and so there is a relationship between all the parts.
0:10:32 > 0:10:37But what does worry me at Templemere is this uneasy business.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40You know, you don't know, walking as I am
0:10:40 > 0:10:44whether it's quite public or quite private. It's a borderline.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46It's another of these contradictions,
0:10:46 > 0:10:48like the contradiction between urban and suburban.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51Because if you are doing something you don't want the neighbours to see,
0:10:51 > 0:10:53you're a bit stuck in a place like this.
0:10:53 > 0:10:54You can't do it with an open window.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57If you close the curtains, they know you're doing it anyway.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00MUSIC PLAYS
0:12:06 > 0:12:08Well...
0:12:08 > 0:12:10I'm for planning.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15Um, and I suppose you are for planning.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18But I don't suppose either of us have seen much of it.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21NARRATOR: Mullioned windows, stockbroker Tudor gables,
0:12:21 > 0:12:25all the paraphernalia of conventional, tasteful suburbia.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29This is the context in which Lyons' work has to exist,
0:12:29 > 0:12:31and it's hardly surprising if he doubts the standards
0:12:31 > 0:12:35and the qualifications of the planners who preside over this mess.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37Most of them live in houses.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41Er, and therefore they regard themselves as experts on houses.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43They do know something about them.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46And when it comes to putting up a scheme for a crematorium,
0:12:46 > 0:12:50they're a bit out of their depth, and other kinds of specialised buildings.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52But houses, that's something they know all about,
0:12:52 > 0:12:53so everybody can have a bash,
0:12:53 > 0:12:56and what they really want the house to look like is Aunt Fanny's
0:12:56 > 0:12:59and, or, you know, the new one that's coming,
0:12:59 > 0:13:03or what goes on in the Ideal Home, and so on.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06Many of Lyons's schemes have run foul of the planning authorities,
0:13:06 > 0:13:10and it's often taken years to win approval to even begin building.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12The opposition of the planners is curious,
0:13:12 > 0:13:16for Lyons is much more of a traditionalist than a revolutionary.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18His estates specialise in curving lines
0:13:18 > 0:13:20and landscaping.
0:13:20 > 0:13:22These are ideas which derive directly
0:13:22 > 0:13:25from the 18th-century tradition of town building.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28The serpentine motifs of Lyons' work have their counterpart
0:13:28 > 0:13:32in the rhythm and elegance of the crescents of Bath.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35And it's possible to see in the layout of his Templemere scheme
0:13:35 > 0:13:38a kind of visual variation on that masterpiece
0:13:38 > 0:13:41of 18th-century architecture, The Paragon at Blackheath.
0:13:44 > 0:13:46But even here Lyons had his problems.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49LYONS: Because the building had as a general context
0:13:49 > 0:13:52a number of 18th-century buildings nearby -
0:13:52 > 0:13:54this is on Blackheath on the heath itself -
0:13:54 > 0:13:58the LCC redesigned the building in Georgian style for me,
0:13:58 > 0:14:01and not a very good pastiche at that.
0:14:01 > 0:14:03If I had to do a Georgian building, you know,
0:14:03 > 0:14:06a phoney one, I could have done a bit better, but they did it.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08And we had an appeal against that.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11And, of course, the amusing thing about it all is that
0:14:11 > 0:14:14when you have these appeals and you have all this anguish
0:14:14 > 0:14:17and enormous effort and money, at the end of it all -
0:14:17 > 0:14:20and it all takes a year or two years or whatever -
0:14:20 > 0:14:23and then eventually someone sends you a letter
0:14:23 > 0:14:26and you fire the gun and say, "Yes, we can build this damn thing,"
0:14:26 > 0:14:28well, very often you think,
0:14:28 > 0:14:30"Well, I wish I could start again designing anyhow,
0:14:30 > 0:14:32"not for their reasons, but for my own reasons."
0:14:32 > 0:14:35But anyhow you go on and you get the building built.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39And then one day a chap comes along and gives you a medal, you see.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43The Ministry distributed medals in large numbers on our shoulders here.
0:14:43 > 0:14:47And it's marvellous to have, from the same ministry, you know,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50refusals and medals. It's a fascinating experience.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52They come out of different doors, of course.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55NARRATOR: The design of housing is a creative activity
0:14:55 > 0:14:58and Lyons believes that this creative activity is hampered
0:14:58 > 0:15:01by slide-rule dictation from the town hall.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04This dictation is based on false abstractions, like density,
0:15:04 > 0:15:07how many people can be housed to the acre.
0:15:07 > 0:15:09Rigid rules grind down the originality
0:15:09 > 0:15:12and the imagination of the architect.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14The worst densities of all, of course,
0:15:14 > 0:15:16are things like four houses to the acre,
0:15:16 > 0:15:19which is a favourite Esher number, and a few other places as well,
0:15:19 > 0:15:21I suppose, though there's no place like Esher.
0:15:21 > 0:15:26This is a place that I have actually refused to build in all the years.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28I've done my best not to build in Esher.
0:15:28 > 0:15:29This is where I pay my rates, of course.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32MUSIC PLAYS
0:16:26 > 0:16:29My feeling is that...um...
0:16:29 > 0:16:34first of all, we have...architects generally,
0:16:34 > 0:16:40particularly in, um, the developed countries,
0:16:40 > 0:16:45where there are large urban areas and large urban conurbations,
0:16:45 > 0:16:49have of recent years developed skills
0:16:49 > 0:16:53in higher density or medium density buildings.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57And so we have responded to a new situation.
0:16:57 > 0:16:58MUSIC PLAYS
0:17:36 > 0:17:38And what we've sought to do,
0:17:38 > 0:17:42and I think at times have striven probably too hard to do,
0:17:42 > 0:17:47is to create a positive entity of a place.
0:17:47 > 0:17:51And we've done this very often in the general context
0:17:51 > 0:17:57of rather poor environment in purely visual terms - uncoordinated, anyhow.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00And so we've tended to make schemes which were introverted,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03where the buildings looked to each other rather than,
0:18:03 > 0:18:06if you like, to the neighbours that already exist.
0:18:06 > 0:18:11But, nevertheless, the purpose has been to make the spaces useful
0:18:11 > 0:18:14and related to the buildings,
0:18:14 > 0:18:17to bring the buildings together by the handling of the space.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21This is why I don't think it's just a landscape architect's job.
0:18:21 > 0:18:25It isn't a matter of making a nice garden.
0:18:25 > 0:18:29And though that's a marvellous thing and it's a skill on its own,
0:18:29 > 0:18:31but this is not our job. Ours...
0:18:31 > 0:18:35I call it building landscape as distinct from any other kind.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38At Parkleys, they are all flats.
0:18:38 > 0:18:42Here in The Priory at Blackheath, they are houses.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45But it's the same magical mixture
0:18:45 > 0:18:48of what Lyons calls "fluffy landscaping",
0:18:48 > 0:18:53and this very pretty tile hanging and crosswalk construction.
0:18:53 > 0:18:58It looks marvellous. I've got no reservations at all about this place.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02I think Lyons himself may have now. I think that is a pity.
0:19:02 > 0:19:03I think he's...
0:19:05 > 0:19:08..sort of eschewing this tile hanging a bit...
0:19:09 > 0:19:11..against his own natural wishes.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13You know, if he'd carried on with the tile hanging,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16never mind who copied him, and then had fun with it...
0:19:16 > 0:19:19I can see all sorts of fun you can get out of this.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22After you've done a few and you knew its trademark, you could...
0:19:22 > 0:19:26I don't know, tile-hung floors, tile-hung lavatory seat...
0:19:26 > 0:19:28You could start playing with it.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31You could have deliberately missed one out like Giulio Romano at Mantua
0:19:31 > 0:19:34to really get a bit of wit into it.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38As I say, I think it looks super.
0:19:38 > 0:19:39MUSIC PLAYS
0:20:03 > 0:20:05Lyons and Span have worked together for years.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09Their schemes are characterised by a high degree of formal organisation
0:20:09 > 0:20:12and by the provision of extensive communal services.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15But how can such a carefully conceived layout be maintained
0:20:15 > 0:20:18intact over the years?
0:20:18 > 0:20:21On most of the estates the answer has been found in special covenants
0:20:21 > 0:20:23or leasehold tenure.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26This sets limits on any alteration to the external appearance of the houses
0:20:26 > 0:20:30and gives the responsibility for the maintenance of the communal property
0:20:30 > 0:20:31to the residents themselves.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35Each housing scheme becomes a kind of self-governing unit
0:20:35 > 0:20:38electing from among its members a management committee.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41This committee then looks after all the communal business -
0:20:41 > 0:20:44the maintenance of gardens, paths and play areas,
0:20:44 > 0:20:46the redecoration of houses,
0:20:46 > 0:20:48in fact, the running of the estate.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53And I think if we had a slightly larger team,
0:20:53 > 0:20:55we'd have a slightly keener sort of atmosphere, really.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58They may be too young. They may be a little bit young.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01- Are they too young? - Well, I think they are, obviously.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05You know. I feel that they are collecting perhaps half.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08You know, they spot the large pieces and, you know,
0:21:08 > 0:21:13it means that I have to walk around the estate and point out, you know...
0:21:13 > 0:21:15NARRATOR: The theory is that by involving the residents
0:21:15 > 0:21:17in the responsibility of management,
0:21:17 > 0:21:19a genuine sense of community can be forged,
0:21:19 > 0:21:23a community not out of goodwill but out of necessity.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31I live in one of these leasehold things myself.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33I'm on the Grosvenor estate.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36But this is impersonal control. It's not trying to involve you.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39And I think they make a virtue of trying to involve you
0:21:39 > 0:21:41in your environment
0:21:41 > 0:21:43I myself think it's the exact opposite.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45But how is the control exercised, then?
0:21:45 > 0:21:47Well, the estate just tells you,
0:21:47 > 0:21:50and if you don't like it, you can go off and find a flat somewhere else.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52I don't mind that.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Or if you feel very strongly about it you form a residents' association,
0:21:55 > 0:21:58then, you know, go up to them and say something.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01But I don't like this business of residents being involved.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04The actual residents themselves being involved and doing it?
0:22:04 > 0:22:05Communally, yeah.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08I don't know. It's democratic, isn't it? Particularly if they're elected.
0:22:10 > 0:22:11Yeah...
0:22:11 > 0:22:15In a way, it's more democratic than the one that you have in mind.
0:22:17 > 0:22:18Yeah, it's more... Hm...
0:22:21 > 0:22:25You have a ready-made community already there,
0:22:25 > 0:22:29so you've got a small village atmosphere already existing.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32Um, and it's marvellous for kids, which is a big advantage.
0:22:32 > 0:22:34We thought it would be very nice.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36The first thing that really strikes is the architecture.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38It was the novelty more than anything else.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41And you have this problem of being a miserable married woman
0:22:41 > 0:22:44because you're tied to the sink, etc, etc.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47Well, here I don't think you feel that nearly so much.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51At least, I didn't. I enjoyed being at home.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55I think that...there is a philosophy behind it.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59Oh, the price was good for the amenities.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01But I'd never lived here.
0:23:01 > 0:23:06Most of that probably is simply because I'm a real city dweller.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10My idea of a home is a very small flat and no possessions much
0:23:10 > 0:23:14and the whole of the city to use as my drawing room or dining room.
0:23:14 > 0:23:17That's just difference in temperament.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20But even trying to think myself in the position of a householder
0:23:20 > 0:23:21and a family man -
0:23:21 > 0:23:25it's...it takes a lot to think myself into that position -
0:23:25 > 0:23:28I'm still a worried by some of the things that happen in Span,
0:23:28 > 0:23:31or some of the things that happened that Span developed.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35Because, you see, at Parkleys, there was no notice outside the entrance,
0:23:35 > 0:23:36no "keep off" notice.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39Here there's one saying please keep off the private landscaping,
0:23:39 > 0:23:41that we're in at the moment. I think that's fair enough.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43That's quite a fair division.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45But in the next estate at Blackheath, The Hall,
0:23:45 > 0:23:49there's a notice right at the beginning of the estate saying,
0:23:49 > 0:23:51"Residents only."
0:23:51 > 0:23:53And it's got worse and worse.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55And now at Weybridge we've got things saying,
0:23:55 > 0:23:58"Residents only, trespassers will be prosecuted, no parking, no turning,"
0:23:58 > 0:24:00God knows what.
0:24:00 > 0:24:01And when things get as bad as this,
0:24:01 > 0:24:04I think there's something seriously wrong.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06Just...point of fact,
0:24:06 > 0:24:09I doubt if you can be sued for simple trespass.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11From another point of fact, a more important one,
0:24:11 > 0:24:13a public footpath runs through here anyway.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16This seems to me like folie de grandeur.
0:24:16 > 0:24:21It's making a special way of life out of what is, after all,
0:24:21 > 0:24:25no more than a collection of very pleasantly designed houses.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28One of the other big builders in Britain just said recently,
0:24:28 > 0:24:32"The one thing we know our customers don't want it any cosy kibbutz."
0:24:32 > 0:24:35And a cosy kibbutz, I reckon, is just exactly what you've got here.
0:24:35 > 0:24:37I just feel unhappy walking around it, I suppose.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39That's as simple a way of putting it as any
0:24:39 > 0:24:42because it's such a terribly inbred, inward-looking place.
0:24:42 > 0:24:47And if it produces results like I saw on another estate here at Weybridge
0:24:47 > 0:24:50where I was coming to have a look to make this film,
0:24:50 > 0:24:53and a kid came up aged about six on a scooter, and asked me,
0:24:53 > 0:24:55was I looking for a house?
0:24:55 > 0:24:56I said, "No, I was just looking."
0:24:56 > 0:24:59And he said, "Well, you shouldn't be here. It's private."
0:24:59 > 0:25:03What kind of environment exactly is this that's producing
0:25:03 > 0:25:05that kind of "keep out-ness" and prejudice at that kind of age?
0:25:05 > 0:25:07And how much worse is it going to get?
0:25:09 > 0:25:11I think if you've got...
0:25:11 > 0:25:15established a group of identities, so to speak,
0:25:15 > 0:25:19that you say these people are living together and sharing things,
0:25:19 > 0:25:23they are by nature going to be exclusive, that's a fact.
0:25:23 > 0:25:24And if they look around them
0:25:24 > 0:25:28and see outside their particular controlled area
0:25:28 > 0:25:30people don't do as well as they do,
0:25:30 > 0:25:35you can't blame them for being pleased about what they're doing.
0:25:35 > 0:25:37I think this is a question of pride of ownership.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40And I don't see anything wrong with pride of ownership, whether it be
0:25:40 > 0:25:43pictures, refrigerators, books, housing, or whatever.
0:25:43 > 0:25:47I think pride of ownership is a kind of involvement in the articles,
0:25:47 > 0:25:50and the more noble the articles are, the more noble,
0:25:50 > 0:25:51if you like, the sentiment can be.
0:25:51 > 0:25:56But the facts are, that involvement by ownership is a good thing.
0:25:56 > 0:25:58And on the whole, I think group ownership
0:25:58 > 0:26:00is a slightly more interesting,
0:26:00 > 0:26:03and socially, I would have thought, more acceptable thing
0:26:03 > 0:26:05than individual personal ownership.
0:26:07 > 0:26:10We never have any shabby-looking places.
0:26:10 > 0:26:11The plus factor...
0:26:13 > 0:26:17..um, so far, with my experience of Span living
0:26:17 > 0:26:20is that most of the people living in Span estates
0:26:20 > 0:26:22come from broadly, what you might say,
0:26:22 > 0:26:26the same class and professional background, within a fair range -
0:26:26 > 0:26:29broadly within sort of middle-income groups.
0:26:29 > 0:26:33Um, and to that extent, you have a plus
0:26:33 > 0:26:36in starting off living together as a group and as a community.
0:26:36 > 0:26:39If they want to live with a hedge around their garden,
0:26:39 > 0:26:40they should go elsewhere.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43You'd do get, I think, it's true to say, the odd individual
0:26:43 > 0:26:47who doesn't want to conform,
0:26:47 > 0:26:50and this, I think, can probably take peculiar ways.
0:26:50 > 0:26:56Perhaps they might want to make some alterations to their place
0:26:56 > 0:27:01by...putting perhaps a huge name outside their house,
0:27:01 > 0:27:03which destroys the whole impact,
0:27:03 > 0:27:05and this has to be drawn to their attention.
0:27:05 > 0:27:10You have to keep them always looking, well, fairly respectable,
0:27:10 > 0:27:13otherwise you could soon make them look sort of ramshackle, I think.
0:27:13 > 0:27:17The odd maverick individual who won't conform in this sense, I think,
0:27:17 > 0:27:20in my experience, soon moves away.
0:27:22 > 0:27:26I rather think that you are looking at this thing
0:27:26 > 0:27:28very much from the outside in,
0:27:28 > 0:27:32you know, in a way that a man looking at a zoo goes round
0:27:32 > 0:27:33looking at the animals,
0:27:33 > 0:27:36and there's a certain lack of sympathy because of this.
0:27:37 > 0:27:42And...this seems to warp your attitude slightly, to me.
0:27:42 > 0:27:46It's not...people's pattern of behaviour I mind.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48I don't mind a lot of similar, you know,
0:27:48 > 0:27:51similar kind of person being in...
0:27:51 > 0:27:53Well, yes. Well, it depends, you see.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56I mean, I don't mind if they're intelligent,
0:27:56 > 0:28:00which is another way of saying I don't mind if they share my views...
0:28:00 > 0:28:04which perhaps, again, is another way of saying, in a way,
0:28:04 > 0:28:05I like to live in a ghetto.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08But on the other hand, it is convenient to have people
0:28:08 > 0:28:10with a similar view and attitude.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13Yeah, but not make a virtue about...of living together.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16I mean, not... Once you're living together, it's bad enough
0:28:16 > 0:28:19without banding into specialist associations.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22You wear like a badge to say you're living together.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25The smugness is there. The smugness is of a smugness
0:28:25 > 0:28:28of a class which you can find anywhere.
0:28:28 > 0:28:29Yes, but...
0:28:29 > 0:28:33It is a middle-class smugness which exists all over the country.
0:28:35 > 0:28:38NARRATOR: Many people would say that Lyons was a better urban
0:28:38 > 0:28:39than suburban designer.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42Perhaps the point will be proved when he built his new complex
0:28:42 > 0:28:44at World's End in Chelsea.
0:28:44 > 0:28:45Certainly it is possible to see
0:28:45 > 0:28:48in even the most unrewarding circumstances
0:28:48 > 0:28:51the touches of humanism and visual flair which are his hallmark.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54Lyons did a great deal of industrial design work
0:28:54 > 0:28:55at the beginning of his career,
0:28:55 > 0:28:59and he still prefers to be called a designer rather than an architect.
0:28:59 > 0:29:01For him, the progression from designing chairs
0:29:01 > 0:29:04to designing buildings is a direct and social one.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06He's still concerned with the making of economic,
0:29:06 > 0:29:08practical and pleasing objects -
0:29:08 > 0:29:11objects which take account of human needs
0:29:11 > 0:29:14rather than expecting humanity to conform to them.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16This is Eric Lyons in a completely different situation -
0:29:16 > 0:29:20the block of flats near the docks at Southampton.
0:29:20 > 0:29:22I think, myself, he had an off day here,
0:29:22 > 0:29:26though it's a difficult situation, doing an isolated block.
0:29:26 > 0:29:31It's probably the worst of all. Got no chance to...
0:29:31 > 0:29:33do any landscape tricks at all.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35It's just the building and that's it.
0:29:35 > 0:29:37But even so, I don't reckon this is much.
0:29:39 > 0:29:41Fair enough picture of urban disintegration as you see anywhere.
0:29:41 > 0:29:43Middle of Southampton.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45Medieval walls.
0:29:45 > 0:29:47Piecemeal rebuilding after the bombing.
0:29:47 > 0:29:49And cars, and cars, and more cars.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51It's up on the 11th floor.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54And here you can see a bit more of Lyons.
0:29:54 > 0:29:57I think he was almost totally absent outside.
0:29:57 > 0:29:58He was perhaps crushed by the problem.
0:29:58 > 0:30:04But here the way he detailed these doors, the numbers,
0:30:04 > 0:30:06the fact there's a little bit of weatherboarding,
0:30:06 > 0:30:10all these human touches are beginning to show.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12They show much more inside the flats.
0:30:12 > 0:30:15Imagine that that out there is the Thames and not Southampton Water
0:30:15 > 0:30:17and you get some idea of the potentialities that might happen
0:30:17 > 0:30:22at World's End in Chelsea when the Lyons scheme is built there.
0:30:22 > 0:30:26I said I wouldn't like to live in some other Lyons' flats or houses.
0:30:26 > 0:30:28I really would like to live here.
0:30:28 > 0:30:34I think his ability to organise very tight space, a very small area,
0:30:34 > 0:30:37and the variety of shapes he's got in the rooms,
0:30:37 > 0:30:40and especially I like the furniture,.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43the thing that, in other words, wasn't provided by Lyons.
0:30:43 > 0:30:45I think that when he's operating
0:30:45 > 0:30:48with an independent client like a council,
0:30:48 > 0:30:51he really can give his imagination really more play
0:30:51 > 0:30:52rather than less.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54MUSIC PLAYS
0:31:02 > 0:31:04NARRATOR: Any housing scheme
0:31:04 > 0:31:06presents one basic clash of interests -
0:31:06 > 0:31:08the motorist against the pedestrian.
0:31:08 > 0:31:12It's typical of Lyons that he rejects such doctrinaire solutions
0:31:12 > 0:31:14as total separation of cars and people.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17I think it's necessary to establish priorities
0:31:17 > 0:31:20in the way the building space is organised,
0:31:20 > 0:31:24and the priority obviously in certain cases has to be the motorcar,
0:31:24 > 0:31:26in other cases, the pedestrian.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28And this is a design factor.
0:31:28 > 0:31:30It's much more complicated, of course,
0:31:30 > 0:31:33than saying, "Just keep them separate and it's easy."
0:31:33 > 0:31:36That's a sort of... That's a bureaucratic solution.
0:31:36 > 0:31:40And the people who don't design anything, it's damned easy.
0:31:41 > 0:31:44So, er...
0:31:44 > 0:31:48the benefits of establishing priorities
0:31:48 > 0:31:52mean there will come times when the car and the pedestrian actually meet.
0:31:52 > 0:31:54There's a chap who actually wants to get in the damn thing
0:31:54 > 0:31:56and go for a ride.
0:31:56 > 0:32:01And he may even want to, you know, show it to his auntie.
0:32:01 > 0:32:03And, you know, she doesn't want
0:32:03 > 0:32:06to have to go through a back yard necessarily to have a look at it,
0:32:06 > 0:32:09or have to meet him in another town or something to have a look at it.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11So it seems to me that you've got to accept the fact
0:32:11 > 0:32:14that cars are concerned with people
0:32:14 > 0:32:15and people love cars.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19They don't like being run over. They do like cars.
0:32:19 > 0:32:21NARRATOR: So cars and people are segregated,
0:32:21 > 0:32:23but not isolated from each other.
0:32:23 > 0:32:25The car is not forgotten,
0:32:25 > 0:32:27but neither is it allowed to dominate the landscape.
0:32:27 > 0:32:31It has its own very clearly marked areas, usually close to the houses.
0:32:31 > 0:32:35In fact, it can come as far into the estate as its utility permits.
0:32:35 > 0:32:39Then the business of living and recreation takes over.
0:32:39 > 0:32:43This careful arrangement of practical space ensures a remarkable degree
0:32:43 > 0:32:45of seclusion and tranquillity
0:32:45 > 0:32:48in what is predominantly a car-owning society.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49The principle is a simple one -
0:32:49 > 0:32:54a housing scheme is primarily a place to live in, not to pass through.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56MUSIC PLAYS
0:33:29 > 0:33:30Ian Nairn deplores this seclusion.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33He finds it smug. But there are not many families with small children
0:33:33 > 0:33:35who would agree with him.
0:33:36 > 0:33:40This is where Ian Nairn lives - Ecclestone Square.
0:33:40 > 0:33:43There's no doubt it's a handsome piece of town building.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46Yet the houses and the gardens are separated from each other
0:33:46 > 0:33:50by a busy road, which is itself clogged with lines of parked cars.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55Even if children can get across the road safely,
0:33:55 > 0:33:58they still have to play in a garden which is surrounded with barbed wire
0:33:58 > 0:34:01and which boasts a fine collection of fiercely restrictive notices.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04From a place in which to live it has become, like most of London,
0:34:04 > 0:34:06a place to pass through.
0:34:07 > 0:34:09MUSIC PLAYS
0:34:27 > 0:34:30And, of course, fundamentally I believe that our houses are probably
0:34:30 > 0:34:32more designed from the inside than outside.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35In fact, I believe that that's what planning,
0:34:35 > 0:34:39looking at the bigger scene, that's what town planning ought to be,
0:34:39 > 0:34:43And in as much as...in as far as we do any town planning,
0:34:43 > 0:34:46it's town planning from the bathroom outwards.
0:34:46 > 0:34:50NARRATOR: On this estate the houses are laid out with formal position,
0:34:50 > 0:34:52and yet, inside that context,
0:34:52 > 0:34:54individual taste can flourish.
0:34:54 > 0:34:58Furniture and decor make these identical rooms expand and contract.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02Here the resident becomes the architect.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05I stood by again and watched that, on the whole,
0:35:05 > 0:35:08people respond to the shape of the room much...
0:35:08 > 0:35:11in various ways and with much better results
0:35:11 > 0:35:15than what are predicted by, no matter how skilled, a committee
0:35:15 > 0:35:18sitting down, saying what colour they ought to have
0:35:18 > 0:35:21and this block ought to be that colour and this ought to be that.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23I don't think there's any hope of...
0:35:23 > 0:35:25anything can come out of this situation
0:35:25 > 0:35:28of trying to impose taste onto people.
0:35:28 > 0:35:30It's a wrong attitude altogether.
0:35:30 > 0:35:32And it's an arrogant one.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37NARRATOR: The ghettos of the smart professional people -
0:35:37 > 0:35:41that's the charge often made against the work of Lyons and of Span.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44Certainly in the past they have made their appeal through their publicity
0:35:44 > 0:35:47and their price range to the young middle class.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50And yet at the same time Lyons does seem aware of the dangers
0:35:50 > 0:35:53of a housing policy based on rigid class lines.
0:35:53 > 0:35:58The outcome is the segregation of certain classes of house users,
0:35:58 > 0:36:00God help us.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02The chaps who can...
0:36:02 > 0:36:06who can...who have got a subsidy live separately,
0:36:06 > 0:36:07which I think is monstrous.
0:36:07 > 0:36:11I mean, I speak not as an architect, you know, as a social animal.
0:36:11 > 0:36:13And...
0:36:13 > 0:36:16And... But as an architect it has its terrible effects
0:36:16 > 0:36:19upon what happens to that part of the town.
0:36:21 > 0:36:23You're creating, sort of, you know, rather...
0:36:23 > 0:36:26sometimes rather good-looking ghettos,
0:36:26 > 0:36:28at the very best.
0:36:28 > 0:36:30And I think this is rather deplorable.
0:36:32 > 0:36:34Full lip service is being paid to the need for shelter,
0:36:34 > 0:36:38but not for the kind of full life that new housing ought to provide.
0:36:38 > 0:36:42And I don't think it can be done by class structure.
0:36:42 > 0:36:46NARRATOR: The current project is an attempt at something new.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49The stated aim is to break down this rigid class structure
0:36:49 > 0:36:53and produce in one large settlement a diverse and fluid society.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56Maybe the end of the ghetto IS in sight.
0:36:56 > 0:36:57Maybe.
0:36:57 > 0:36:59MUSIC PLAYS
0:37:54 > 0:37:57New Ash Green near Dartford in Kent.
0:37:57 > 0:38:01I think there is more hope here, both for Span and for Lyons.
0:38:01 > 0:38:05For Span, because New Ash Green is a big place - 6,000 people -
0:38:05 > 0:38:07and they just can't be inbred on that scale.
0:38:07 > 0:38:12For Lyons, because here he's got the chance to design at last
0:38:12 > 0:38:16on a big enough scale the landscape he's always wanted to design.
0:38:16 > 0:38:19For the first time we've got a big enough scheme.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22We've got a very wide spectrum of
0:38:22 > 0:38:26income and size and range of housing,
0:38:26 > 0:38:28and it's been designed deliberately for this purpose.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31NARRATOR: This is Lyon's most ambitious project so far -
0:38:31 > 0:38:352,000 houses to be built on a site of 430 acres.
0:38:35 > 0:38:39Characteristically, half of that area will be kept as communal open space.
0:38:39 > 0:38:42The village will be made up of 18 distinct living areas,
0:38:42 > 0:38:46all linked by pedestrian walkways and skirted by service roads.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50In the centre there'll be shops, a pub, a library, a primary school.
0:38:50 > 0:38:54The aim is nothing less than a complete new community.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57We hope to produce a very compact, you know, place
0:38:57 > 0:39:02that yet has got something that you can't get in the average suburb,
0:39:02 > 0:39:07and that is the ability to walk from your house onto, literally,
0:39:07 > 0:39:10some recreation grass, space.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12You certainly can't do it in the average village
0:39:12 > 0:39:15in the south of England or in the Home Counties anywhere.
0:39:16 > 0:39:20But here we built in the space, the recreation space,
0:39:20 > 0:39:22the real release space,
0:39:22 > 0:39:25so that people will have the benefits of space and yet,
0:39:25 > 0:39:29the benefits of small areas of land to look after themselves
0:39:29 > 0:39:34and a general, you know, village pressure,
0:39:34 > 0:39:36which is the product of people living together.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39This is what the village is all about, isn't it?
0:39:39 > 0:39:41OK, we're going to telescope history
0:39:41 > 0:39:42and we shall probably make some mistakes,
0:39:42 > 0:39:45but history has made a lot of mistakes, too.
0:39:45 > 0:39:49And on the whole, I suspect that we'll probably be winning,
0:39:49 > 0:39:53because we are trying to anticipate the mistakes that history did make
0:39:53 > 0:39:54and try and prevent them happening
0:39:57 > 0:39:59It started as a good idea,
0:39:59 > 0:40:03which was also part of a whole design equation,
0:40:03 > 0:40:05and the landscaping
0:40:05 > 0:40:08and a completely fresh look at a way of providing houses.
0:40:08 > 0:40:11And gradually the idea's taken it over.
0:40:11 > 0:40:15The idea has become more than the thing itself.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17I think in the end, it's going to be defeated.
0:40:17 > 0:40:21I mean, you can't carry it through in a place of 6,000. But...
0:40:21 > 0:40:22Yes, oh, certainly.
0:40:22 > 0:40:24The place is going to take over, to some extent.
0:40:24 > 0:40:27But in a way, perhaps what you're complaining about
0:40:27 > 0:40:29in some of the smaller things is, in fact,
0:40:29 > 0:40:33the residents HAVE taken over and conveyed...
0:40:33 > 0:40:37They've bought their own smugness from outside and injected it into...
0:40:37 > 0:40:40No, I think Span has given them an extra dimension of smugness
0:40:40 > 0:40:43that they didn't have before, they didn't know they had before.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46- I think it's... - Well, I don't know about that.
0:40:46 > 0:40:52I think that Kingston-bypass Tudor has a grandiose kind of smugness
0:40:52 > 0:40:54which would be difficult to beat anywhere.
0:40:56 > 0:41:00Fundamentally, it's a fact that science is concerned with
0:41:00 > 0:41:02a body of knowledge
0:41:02 > 0:41:05and the enlargement of that body of knowledge.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08And art, whatever else it is and isn't,
0:41:08 > 0:41:12is concerned with experience...
0:41:12 > 0:41:16and human experience, and the enlargement of that human experience.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19And I believe the architect's job
0:41:19 > 0:41:24is involved with both aspects of this lump,
0:41:24 > 0:41:26and is a kind of bridge.
0:41:26 > 0:41:30And by "the architect" I mean the designer of things.
0:41:31 > 0:41:33I don't think the architect's job
0:41:33 > 0:41:37is some sort of compromise between these alternatives.
0:41:37 > 0:41:42And he certainly isn't the sort of descendant
0:41:42 > 0:41:47of the scientific lump or facet, the technologist.
0:41:47 > 0:41:49And technology, as I understand,
0:41:49 > 0:41:51it is concerned with reduction of human labour.
0:41:51 > 0:41:54I don't think it's concerned with anything else at all.
0:41:54 > 0:41:56If architects become technologists,
0:41:56 > 0:42:02then we are left with no kind of humane influence,
0:42:02 > 0:42:08no kind of humane influence over the products of, you know, our...
0:42:08 > 0:42:10which make up our environment.
0:42:10 > 0:42:12MUSIC PLAYS
0:42:54 > 0:43:00I think all architects grapple with this problem of how much they are led
0:43:00 > 0:43:03and how much they lead, and we know, really,
0:43:03 > 0:43:05that it's always a mixture of both.
0:43:05 > 0:43:10And an element of leadership by the architect
0:43:10 > 0:43:14is involved in the sense that, as a creative artist,
0:43:14 > 0:43:18he must be doing things new, you know, by definition,
0:43:18 > 0:43:22and therefore unfamiliar, and therefore different.
0:43:22 > 0:43:25They may be leading in terms of going forward,
0:43:25 > 0:43:29but it may be a wrong move, and so one fumbles to try and...
0:43:29 > 0:43:34um, respond to what you think society is doing
0:43:34 > 0:43:36and which way it's going.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39And this is really what I try to do.
0:43:39 > 0:43:44I never like to leap in, you know, big jumps.
0:43:44 > 0:43:47I like to move from one position to another.
0:43:47 > 0:43:51And all my work is an attempt, really, to move from a situation
0:43:51 > 0:43:54that I'm familiar with into a slightly less familiar situation.
0:43:59 > 0:44:03This is the entrance to Eric Lyons' own house in East Molesey
0:44:03 > 0:44:06But it's suburban living with a bit of a difference.
0:44:06 > 0:44:07It's a great big Victorian castle.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10I think it's the essence to the enigma of Eric Lyons -
0:44:10 > 0:44:14the fact that he likes suburbia, but he's a superb urban designer.
0:44:14 > 0:44:17I think when you see World's End being built,
0:44:17 > 0:44:19that will be the real proof of that.
0:44:19 > 0:44:21But most of all, the fact that he preaches community,
0:44:21 > 0:44:23and yet lives in this great castle.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43MUSIC PLAYS