0:00:31 > 0:00:34Ladies and gentlemen, Muhammad Ali.
0:00:35 > 0:00:43In the story of light entertainment, one television format has become the most popular and the most important.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47# A little less conversation A little more action, please... #
0:00:47 > 0:00:50Chat shows didn't exist until television.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53You didn't go to the theatre and see a chat show.
0:00:53 > 0:00:56The chat show is the pivot around which all light entertainment swings.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00Tonight we'll see how the classic combination of sofa,
0:01:00 > 0:01:06studio and celebrity has stood the test of time, and how the right host can make or break a show.
0:01:06 > 0:01:10There's 500 people in the audience, there's enough lights around to fry an egg,
0:01:10 > 0:01:13there's a microphone stuck in every orifice
0:01:13 > 0:01:17and the last advice they're given is be natural. Are you crazy?!
0:01:17 > 0:01:19- Hello, Michael. - Oh, hello, Miss Piggy.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22You try and create the illusion
0:01:22 > 0:01:27that what's going on here is almost dinner-party chat.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31- I've never thought of feet as an erogenous zone.- Try.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33Whether light-hearted or not,
0:01:33 > 0:01:35the key purpose
0:01:35 > 0:01:37is to put the focus on the guest.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41- You lost your father at an early age, didn't you?- No.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48- No, my father DIED. - LAUGHTER
0:01:48 > 0:01:51For almost 60 years, the chat show has given us the chance
0:01:51 > 0:01:56to catch a glimpse of the real person behind the celebrity.
0:01:56 > 0:02:01Why on Earth would somebody come on one of these shows unless they've got something to plug?
0:02:01 > 0:02:06I came on this show to sell a book. I am in England to sell a book.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08They're not on because they love you.
0:02:08 > 0:02:14I'm more available for talk shows when I've got a book coming out. It's simply a fact of life on TV.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19A white chocolate bread pudding and hamburger/cheeseburger!
0:02:19 > 0:02:22- Is this really the way for a body beautiful?- Oh, absolutely.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25That marked a kind of low watermark in that kind of plugging.
0:02:25 > 0:02:30We had Priscilla Presley on recently and she was plugging a line of sheets!
0:02:31 > 0:02:37But in return for the big sell we get a small glimpse of the real person behind the celebrity mask.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39I was the great white whale.
0:02:39 > 0:02:44Sometimes, if we were lucky, we saw a little more than we bargained for.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46It was a TV event, somebody being so drunk.
0:02:46 > 0:02:48- Don't turn your back on me! - I can't...
0:02:51 > 0:02:52George Best.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55Terry, I like screwing, all right?
0:02:55 > 0:03:00- And he's as drunk as a skunk. So what do you do with your time these days?- Screw.- I see.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Television should have its rough edges.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08The bad behaviour only got worse when the Great British Public
0:03:08 > 0:03:12were allowed to air their dirty linen on our screens.
0:03:12 > 0:03:18My talk show, obviously my interest and my training was in conflict resolution, in mental health.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22It was necessary to dumb down the show.
0:03:22 > 0:03:28There is a strand of television which is very voyeuristic, bordering on exploitation.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30So do you stay or do you go?
0:03:30 > 0:03:32I'm going.
0:03:35 > 0:03:40But the genuine celebrity is still the life-blood of the talk show world,
0:03:40 > 0:03:43even if the host is anything but real.
0:03:43 > 0:03:47Were you as surprised as we all were, when he came from behind
0:03:47 > 0:03:49and he licked you in the ring?
0:03:49 > 0:03:52Were you surprised?
0:03:53 > 0:03:56It's not the talk of the town, it's the chat of the town.
0:03:58 > 0:04:05The chat show is now almost unavoidable, with talking heads on morning, noon and night.
0:04:05 > 0:04:10But when was the big bang that created this constellation of conversation?
0:04:15 > 0:04:23In the 1940s, America was the only place to find big stars, and it was here that the chat show was born.
0:04:23 > 0:04:31In 1950, the world's first ever chat show, Broadway Open House, premiered on the NBC network.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34This new format of variety and conversation hosted by
0:04:34 > 0:04:36veteran comedians was short-lived,
0:04:36 > 0:04:40but proved that there was definitely a late-night audience for chat.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44From New York City tonight, starring Steve Allen.
0:04:44 > 0:04:50Two years later NBC tried again and hired comedian Steve Allen.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54- Ten seconds, Mr Allen. - All right, that's enough outta you!
0:04:54 > 0:04:55Argh!
0:04:57 > 0:05:02The Steve Allen Show became an overnight success thanks to his unorthodox style.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05Here he is interviewing Errol Flynn.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11Errol, it's wonderful to see you. I understand you've been travelling lately.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15- Well, yes, I have, Steve. Actually I've been in Spain.- Oh, really?- Yes.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17They're incredibly inventive,
0:05:17 > 0:05:21and very much a forerunner of everything that followed.
0:05:25 > 0:05:29From New York, the Tonight Show, starring Johnny Carson.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33He-e-ere's Johnny!
0:05:34 > 0:05:39In 1962, ten years after Steve Allen, America witnessed the birth
0:05:39 > 0:05:46of the first chat show superstar, when comedian Johnny Carson took his place behind the Tonight Show desk
0:05:46 > 0:05:50and became one of the greatest names in TV history.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53'The Tonight Show is the blueprint, because the Tonight Show'
0:05:53 > 0:05:59defined late-night conversation with celebrities,
0:05:59 > 0:06:03with a band, with jokes, with monologues.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07It defined a form, and that form has worked.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11The quality of his work, his extraordinary comic timing,
0:06:11 > 0:06:14it's absolutely fascinating, if you look at those shows now.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17AUDIENCE GASPS AND LAUGHS
0:06:32 > 0:06:36I...I didn't even know you were Jewish!
0:06:39 > 0:06:43'Coming out of stand-up comedy himself, he knew
0:06:43 > 0:06:45'just how to feed you the line,'
0:06:45 > 0:06:51and once he got your rhythm he knew where not to step on your line.
0:06:51 > 0:06:56So you'd tell him this whole story, and then he'd be able to say, "Well, how fat WAS she?"
0:06:56 > 0:06:59And that would set you up to come right in
0:06:59 > 0:07:03with your final line. He was the best straight man in the business.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07'There's two ways to do a talk show. One is from the journalistic point of view -'
0:07:07 > 0:07:11ask a question, get the answer, ask a follow-up question,
0:07:11 > 0:07:14and the second is to do what Johnny Carson does,
0:07:14 > 0:07:17which is to actually make the host the centre point of the event
0:07:17 > 0:07:21and, like the Americans, to make him the kind of star.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26'He became incredibly powerful within the network as a result of
0:07:26 > 0:07:30'the sheer profits that that show was generating. I think he was'
0:07:30 > 0:07:34one of the first artists that actually got to own his own show, in the sense that
0:07:34 > 0:07:41he dictated to the network when he'd like the show to play, how many weeks off a year he would like, and so on.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44He became a very potent player within American television.
0:07:45 > 0:07:52Never before in the story of light entertainment had so much power rested with a chat show host,
0:07:52 > 0:07:55and it was a story that would be repeated again and again.
0:07:58 > 0:08:05But all this big-name glamour was light years away from light entertainment in post-war Britain.
0:08:05 > 0:08:10'When British TV started up again after the war, TV airtime was extremely limited'
0:08:10 > 0:08:14and we just didn't have any post-11pm television.
0:08:14 > 0:08:17The talk show format, as far as the British audience was concerned,
0:08:17 > 0:08:21didn't exist! It only existed for those of us who'd seen American TV.
0:08:21 > 0:08:26Lacking the glitz of Hollywood, British viewers made do with shows
0:08:26 > 0:08:30like the BBC's weekly showbiz chat show In Town Tonight.
0:08:30 > 0:08:32In town tonight!
0:08:32 > 0:08:34Stop!
0:08:34 > 0:08:37Once again, we stopped the mighty roar of London's traffic,
0:08:37 > 0:08:41and from the great crowds we bring you some of the interesting people
0:08:41 > 0:08:45who have come by land, sea and air to be in town tonight.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49She's starring in two films which are showing in London at the moment,
0:08:49 > 0:08:51although after finishing her dramatic training,
0:08:51 > 0:08:56she had a spell of doing nothing but pin-up pictures - Belinda Lee.
0:08:56 > 0:09:01- What picture are you working on now, Miss Lee?- Well, I'm working on two at the moment.
0:09:01 > 0:09:05One's called The Feminine Touch and it's a serious film about nursing,
0:09:05 > 0:09:09- and the other one's called Who Done It, and it's a comedy with Benny Hill.- Oh!
0:09:09 > 0:09:14Four years later in 1959, the BBC ignored celebrity again
0:09:14 > 0:09:19when they launched a resolutely unshowbizzy chat show with journalist John Freeman.
0:09:19 > 0:09:24Featuring serious probing interviews with guests like Martin Luther King,
0:09:24 > 0:09:27Face To Face bore little relation to its American counterparts.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31Was anybody actually cruel to you or violent to you because you were coloured?
0:09:31 > 0:09:36Now, I can remember seeing the Klan actually beat negroes
0:09:36 > 0:09:40- on some of the streets in Atlanta. - 'My greatest'
0:09:40 > 0:09:44early influence in terms of a television interviewer was John Freeman.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47I learnt a very important lesson from Freeman early on -
0:09:47 > 0:09:51he became the most important and famous man in British television
0:09:51 > 0:09:55and you never saw his face. There's a lesson in that for every interviewer
0:09:55 > 0:09:56which still applies today.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00'No confusion there about who mattered in an interview - the interviewee.'
0:10:00 > 0:10:05He underlined that by only showing his left shoulder to the camera.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09Never did I realise that I would be in a situation
0:10:09 > 0:10:12where I would be a leader in what is now known
0:10:12 > 0:10:15as the civil rights struggle of the United States.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17'You were analysing people
0:10:17 > 0:10:21'as they were laying themselves bare in front of John Freeman,'
0:10:21 > 0:10:23that was the purest form.
0:10:23 > 0:10:28It was almost psychoanalytical but it was very telling.
0:10:28 > 0:10:33It was a brilliant format, and was successful because of John Freeman's skills.
0:10:33 > 0:10:40It wasn't until 1964 that ITV made the first attempts at producing an American-style chat show.
0:10:40 > 0:10:42Tonight from London...
0:10:47 > 0:10:49For Irish presenter Eamonn Andrews,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52the move from surprising celebrities on This Is Your Life
0:10:52 > 0:10:57to interviewing celebrities on a talk show was a huge leap of faith.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02- Well, a great welcome to you, Muhammad.- Thank you. - I must say that I,
0:11:02 > 0:11:07like a lot of people, can't get used to, since for religious reasons you changed your name...
0:11:07 > 0:11:13- Does it annoy you when people forget and call you Cassius?- No, it's just the manner in the way they say it.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17Some will go, "How you doing, Cassius, old boy? How you feeling?"
0:11:17 > 0:11:19You know my name, fella!
0:11:19 > 0:11:22"Well, Mr Ali, I'm sorry!"
0:11:22 > 0:11:25'Eamonn wasn't absolutely perfect,'
0:11:25 > 0:11:28nor absolutely totally happy in that role.
0:11:28 > 0:11:31He always seemed to be permanently on a state of panic.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34Although he's a very amiable person to watch,
0:11:34 > 0:11:39you can see he's sort of sweating on, almost literally on, the next thing that was gonna happen.
0:11:39 > 0:11:44- So let's have a word about the fight last night, Cassius...- Muhammad. - Muhammad! I'm sorry!
0:11:44 > 0:11:46I didn't do that deliberately, I promise!
0:11:46 > 0:11:48APPLAUSE
0:11:48 > 0:11:53'Eamonn was an extraordinarily nervous performer,'
0:11:53 > 0:11:56and he sweated a lot, which was a great embarrassment to him
0:11:56 > 0:11:59because you'd get him done up in his suit and shirt,
0:11:59 > 0:12:02and by the time he got to the set he'd be drenched in sweat.
0:12:02 > 0:12:08And we had the make-up girl banging him down, you know, with tissues.
0:12:08 > 0:12:13But having drawn attention to yourself now, here the... the youngest known...
0:12:13 > 0:12:17However effortless Andrews may have appeared on This Is Your Life,
0:12:17 > 0:12:20he clearly found the chat show format more demanding.
0:12:20 > 0:12:25For critics and viewers unused to such unrehearsed informality, The Eamonn Andrews Show
0:12:25 > 0:12:30was seen as unprofessional and received damning reviews.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32The next man to try out the format
0:12:32 > 0:12:34was the polar opposite of Andrews,
0:12:34 > 0:12:38and had ideas which were to revolutionise the talk show forever.
0:12:41 > 0:12:47David Frost had developed his TV technique in the groundbreaking That Was The Week That Was.
0:12:47 > 0:12:53This introduced TV audiences to entertaining and intelligent satire for the first time.
0:12:53 > 0:12:54Good evening, good evening.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58An odd week. For political animals it started two days early...
0:12:58 > 0:13:01'That Was The Week That Was, and it emptied restaurants and pubs.'
0:13:01 > 0:13:03Everybody went home or somewhere
0:13:03 > 0:13:07to watch That Was The Week That Was because it was live.
0:13:07 > 0:13:09And you saw cameras in shot
0:13:09 > 0:13:12and people walking about and there was an immediacy about that
0:13:12 > 0:13:14which we hadn't seen on television before.
0:13:14 > 0:13:17What I really suppose my idea was
0:13:17 > 0:13:21to combine the amount of research
0:13:21 > 0:13:24and responsibility and attitude that Tonight had had
0:13:24 > 0:13:29but thrust it at an audience with the techniques of variety and vaudeville.
0:13:29 > 0:13:34So there were sketches and songs and monologues and direct appeals to camera.
0:13:34 > 0:13:39A huge success, Frost soon attracted attention from the American networks
0:13:39 > 0:13:42and began co-hosting a US version of the show -
0:13:42 > 0:13:47an experience which gave him a career in America and ideas for the future.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50It was clear there was a good talk show to do
0:13:50 > 0:13:55with show-business personalities but I didn't want to confine it to that,
0:13:55 > 0:14:00so I wanted to add two things to that - politicians and so on, and the other thing was an audience
0:14:00 > 0:14:03that was gonna be really involved.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05He realised that these kind of shows
0:14:05 > 0:14:08shouldn't be just about this authority figure,
0:14:08 > 0:14:13or this celebrity being talked to, but it was also about what the members of the audience thought
0:14:13 > 0:14:16because ordinary people were suddenly OK!
0:14:16 > 0:14:21Nothing is more boring for viewers at home, or indeed for the people doing it, than a stereotype format
0:14:21 > 0:14:25so let people depart from the format if they want to.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29And ordinary people had a lot to say when given the opportunity to
0:14:29 > 0:14:33confront the founder of the British Union of Fascists, Oswald Mosley.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35- Can I challenge...? - Can you turn a cam...?
0:14:35 > 0:14:37AUDIENCE MEMBERS SHOUT OUT
0:14:37 > 0:14:42It was 300,000 East-Londoners that stopped you marching through Aldgate!
0:14:42 > 0:14:46The dockers, the clothing workers, the shop assistants stopped you.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50Even the biggest police force they could muster couldn't push you through!
0:14:50 > 0:14:55- Why did they need a public order? - We beat you, and will again, and we beat your friend Adolf Hitler!
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Can we just move this camera here a bit to one side?
0:14:58 > 0:15:02Cyril Bennett, the Controller of Programmes, said, having watched
0:15:02 > 0:15:06the first programme where we were involving the audience,
0:15:06 > 0:15:12"That use of the audience you'll get rid of in no time at all.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15"I bet you a turkey dinner it won't last. "
0:15:15 > 0:15:22Well, we won the turkey dinner and it did last, and that was one of the key ingredients in making it popular.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26The combination of quite hard-hitting current affairs
0:15:26 > 0:15:30with showbiz, that's one of David Frost's great strengths.
0:15:30 > 0:15:35He could make extraordinary gear changes between the serious and light-hearted remarkably easily.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39Didn't you once have great dreams, fantasies of being a cat burglar?
0:15:39 > 0:15:43I wanted to be a criminal as a child.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47I'm not kidding, cos at first I thought of being, um...
0:15:47 > 0:15:52a confidence swindler, and using my intelligence to...
0:15:52 > 0:15:54LAUGHTER
0:15:54 > 0:15:58Frost had become so strong a celebrity magnet,
0:15:58 > 0:16:01that there seemed to be few professional challenges left.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03And he was a huge star in America.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07He got everybody. He was the only one who could get Nixon
0:16:07 > 0:16:09for the Nixon Tapes after that terrible scandal of '74.
0:16:12 > 0:16:18By 1977, five years after Watergate and three years since Nixon's resignation,
0:16:18 > 0:16:20Frost had become so powerful
0:16:20 > 0:16:24that he beat his American rivals to an exclusive interview.
0:16:24 > 0:16:29Richard Nixon talks tonight about war on two fronts - war in Vietnam.
0:16:29 > 0:16:35Why it was fought, why it was prolonged, why it was lost and what it cost.
0:16:35 > 0:16:37The big shows that Frost did,
0:16:37 > 0:16:39like the ones with Nixon, were real studies
0:16:39 > 0:16:42in what you could do and what you couldn't do.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45I realised later that Frost did quite a good job with Nixon.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48That's about as hard as you can go with someone
0:16:48 > 0:16:50who's determined to evade the issue.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53You did do...some covering up.
0:16:53 > 0:16:59We're not talking legalistically now, I just want...the facts.
0:16:59 > 0:17:05I mean, you did do some covering up, but there were a series of times when maybe overwhelmed by
0:17:05 > 0:17:10your loyalties or whatever else, but as you look back at the record...
0:17:10 > 0:17:19you behaved partially, protecting your friends or maybe yourself, and that in fact you were,
0:17:19 > 0:17:21to put it at its most simple,
0:17:21 > 0:17:23a part of a cover-up at times.
0:17:23 > 0:17:30No, I again respectfully will not...quibble with you
0:17:30 > 0:17:32about the use of the terms.
0:17:32 > 0:17:38However, before using the term, I think it's very important
0:17:38 > 0:17:41for me to make clear what I did NOT do and what I did do.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43'He wouldn't volunteer things,'
0:17:43 > 0:17:47it was only when you'd got him on the ropes and, to try and get off the ropes,
0:17:47 > 0:17:49he'd make a further admission, and so on.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52But that's madness of him to say that.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55- It isn't madness at all.- How could two small countries like Cuba...?
0:17:55 > 0:17:58Being a formidable former president
0:17:58 > 0:18:04didn't exempt Nixon from the intense confrontational approach that Frost had perfected back in Britain.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07So that is obstruction of justice, period!
0:18:07 > 0:18:09That's your conclusion...
0:18:09 > 0:18:11- It is.- But now let's look at the facts.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14'The very last day of the Watergate taping we were absolutely,'
0:18:14 > 0:18:18both of us, exhausted at the end because...
0:18:18 > 0:18:23taking...this incredibly private man
0:18:23 > 0:18:29right into the depths of his inner soul, you know, was exhausting for both of us.
0:18:29 > 0:18:31I let the American people down...
0:18:33 > 0:18:37..and I have to carry that burden with me for the rest of my life.
0:18:37 > 0:18:40My political life is over.
0:18:40 > 0:18:46Frost's success was further proof that demand for big names was big business.
0:18:49 > 0:18:55Back in Britain, it was a journalist from Barnsley who was to become the next big chat show name.
0:18:55 > 0:19:00I saw David Frost on television and I saw Johnny Carson, which seemed to me to be
0:19:00 > 0:19:04the perfect way to earn a living. There are many different ways
0:19:04 > 0:19:08to do a talk show. My way is to use my journalistic experience,
0:19:08 > 0:19:10my experience as an interviewer,
0:19:10 > 0:19:14to actually get the best out of the people sitting opposite me.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17That's my way of doing it and I never thought there's any other way.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21All of those iconic '50s, '60s, '70s stars,
0:19:21 > 0:19:25be they Hollywood film stars, or global sporting superstars,
0:19:25 > 0:19:28your Rolodex of memory remembers seeing everybody.
0:19:28 > 0:19:32Of course he was a fantastic enthusiast for these big Hollywood stars
0:19:32 > 0:19:37who were perhaps doing their first interview on television in Britain.
0:19:37 > 0:19:43It was one major booking with a Hollywood giant that kick-started Parkinson's legendary
0:19:43 > 0:19:50star-filled roster, and helped him to single-handedly define the chat show genre for the next decade.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54We had a terrible problem when we first started, in getting the big names on.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58Quite obviously, the agents stood back and said, "Well who are you?
0:19:58 > 0:20:00"Let's see a bit of form, first of all."
0:20:00 > 0:20:05And we decided one star would open the door and unlock the doors and that was Orson Welles.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09He is, of course, a remarkable man, most easily summed up as actor,
0:20:09 > 0:20:12writer, film and theatre director, but what else?
0:20:12 > 0:20:17'I was terrified of meeting Welles because I admired him so much.'
0:20:17 > 0:20:20I thought I might faint when I saw him.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23I spent days writing out the interview. I really did.
0:20:23 > 0:20:29I'd broken it down to about 15/16 questions which I put on a white sheet of paper in my dressing room.
0:20:29 > 0:20:35And there was a knock on my door, and there's my hero, and he's dressed entirely in black.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38He had a black sombrero on, he had a black cloak on,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42he had a black suit, he had a black shirt and a black bow tie.
0:20:42 > 0:20:47And he's a massive man and he came in...he swept past me, "Mr Parkinson," he said,
0:20:47 > 0:20:51and walked in and looked around, disapproved of this tiny BBC cubby-hole
0:20:51 > 0:20:53being used as something more grand altogether.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56He saw the questions - "What are they?"
0:20:56 > 0:20:59I said, "They're my questions, Mr Welles."
0:20:59 > 0:21:02"Ah", he said, "may I look, Mr Parkinson?" I said, "You may."
0:21:02 > 0:21:05And he looked at them and said, "Mm, very interesting,"
0:21:05 > 0:21:09and he ripped them and put them in the bin and said, "Let's talk."
0:21:09 > 0:21:11You've been called a genius many times.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14Yes, it's just one of those words, you know.
0:21:14 > 0:21:19It's one of those words. I suppose there have only been two or three geniuses in this century.
0:21:19 > 0:21:21- We all know who they are.- Really?
0:21:21 > 0:21:28I suppose, yes. We've got Einstein and Picasso and...somebody in China we haven't heard about, you know.
0:21:28 > 0:21:30So you don't accept the...
0:21:30 > 0:21:32Oh, I accept anything I get!
0:21:32 > 0:21:36But...but between friends, you know, there aren't many of them.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40- No.- And I really wouldn't want to try to edge my way
0:21:40 > 0:21:43into an elevator
0:21:43 > 0:21:48that was for geniuses only, going up, you know.
0:21:48 > 0:21:52'Once he'd been on the show, from that point on, the doors opened.'
0:21:52 > 0:21:55The agents took the point of view that if Orson Welles,
0:21:55 > 0:22:00who was then the greatest film star, director in the world, could do a show then anybody else would.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03- May I see that, please? - Yes, of course.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06- Yes. No. ..Yes. - LAUGHTER
0:22:09 > 0:22:10I don't know.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14Yes, and no. He'll tell you the questions later, I've gotta go.
0:22:14 > 0:22:19If you're making a living as a journalist and an interviewer which is what I do,
0:22:19 > 0:22:21but in fact you don't have that kind of fantasy life,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25- you don't create something?- Oh! I thought you were in showbiz!- No.
0:22:25 > 0:22:30- Oh, they told me you were in showbusiness!- No. No.- Oh, I didn't know you were a journalist!
0:22:30 > 0:22:31Oh, how dreary!
0:22:31 > 0:22:34LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:22:34 > 0:22:39By 1973, Parkinson was a huge figure in light entertainment,
0:22:39 > 0:22:43even beating Cliff Richard to Top Male Personality of the Year!
0:22:43 > 0:22:46Now the viewers wanted MORE chat
0:22:46 > 0:22:50and ITV gave it to them when they pitted their very own Yorkshire chat show host
0:22:50 > 0:22:53in direct competition with the BBC.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56The world's greatest talk show, and this is starring...
0:22:56 > 0:23:00Wait a minute...um... Russell Harty?
0:23:01 > 0:23:05Russell Harty's more informal approach gave his audience a chance
0:23:05 > 0:23:08to see the stars in a way that was unthinkable on the Parkinson show.
0:23:08 > 0:23:10Can we have a look at your...
0:23:10 > 0:23:16- at your top for the last few moments of the show?- Getting undressed in front of an audience?
0:23:16 > 0:23:18'High camp at its best,'
0:23:18 > 0:23:21and that's what Harty was all about.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24I tell you what I usually do on talk shows when I was asked that,
0:23:24 > 0:23:28that the host takes his shirt off and his jacket off.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32'Just seeing people making fools of themselves'
0:23:32 > 0:23:37and somehow revealing something of their real nature. That's what he wanted from his guests.
0:23:37 > 0:23:39All right!
0:23:43 > 0:23:47Oh, I feel so good.
0:23:51 > 0:23:58Despite a decade of delivering huge audiences for the BBC, by 1980, Michael Parkinson was restless and
0:23:58 > 0:24:02keen to expand the format into an American-style five nights a week.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05I couldn't understand why the BBC had fought this.
0:24:05 > 0:24:11It's the only sort of big broadcast institution in the world that's never had a five-night-a-week talk show.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13And the BBC handled it badly!
0:24:13 > 0:24:19Well, that's it, then. For the statistically minded it's been 361 shows, 1,047 guests,
0:24:19 > 0:24:24373 hours, 47 minutes and 56 seconds of television time,
0:24:24 > 0:24:26and 11 years of my life.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29'It was always his ambition to have five nights a week like Carson.'
0:24:29 > 0:24:33Whether it would've worked, we don't know, it didn't get a chance.
0:24:33 > 0:24:37I thought, "I'm going to move on." I went to breakfast television
0:24:37 > 0:24:39and that's basically why I left the BBC.
0:24:40 > 0:24:45But the BBC's offer of a twice-weekly slot wasn't enough to prevent Parkinson
0:24:45 > 0:24:49from teaming up with his former mentor, David Frost, and taking the talk format
0:24:49 > 0:24:52into brand-new territory - breakfast television.
0:24:52 > 0:24:57Hello, good morning and welcome to TV-am.
0:24:57 > 0:25:01New studios, a new news service and a new national network.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04'In 1979, or early '80,'
0:25:04 > 0:25:08if someone had said, "Are you gonna be doing breakfast TV?"
0:25:08 > 0:25:10I'd have said, "What's that?
0:25:10 > 0:25:12"We don't have it here!"
0:25:12 > 0:25:19So one suddenly thought, "That's the new frontier one wants to be involved in, and so go for it!"
0:25:19 > 0:25:25But Parkinson 's departure from the BBC had left the Corporation in urgent need of a replacement.
0:25:25 > 0:25:30We were then left with a void. They wanted another major talk show at the BBC.
0:25:31 > 0:25:33You can get power-crazed in this place.
0:25:33 > 0:25:38To fill the void, the BBC took the bold step of replacing Parkinson,
0:25:38 > 0:25:43the consummate journalist, with radio DJ Terry Wogan.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45I took over the Saturday show
0:25:45 > 0:25:50from Michael, and...you know, a daunting prospect
0:25:50 > 0:25:54cos Michael was and is such an outstanding talk show presenter,
0:25:54 > 0:25:59and so...I took it over, and I hope I brought something different to it.
0:26:00 > 0:26:05The idea for Terry Wogan to do a chat show on BBC1 was in the works
0:26:05 > 0:26:10when I arrived at BBC1, in 1984 I think,
0:26:10 > 0:26:15and I was full of enthusiasm for that. I was a huge admirer of Terry Wogan.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18I like you, Wogan. I do, I swear to God.
0:26:18 > 0:26:20And yet you married an Italian?
0:26:20 > 0:26:24Wogan, there's a little green thing on this side of your nose...
0:26:25 > 0:26:28'Terry is just genuinely a decent human being,'
0:26:28 > 0:26:34a kind and generous person, and that comes across.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37Wogan's appeal was very light. It's very professional,
0:26:37 > 0:26:40but it's a... nobody's-gonna-get-hurt interview.
0:26:40 > 0:26:44Well, when I get too tough I just say pretty much what, you know, what I have to say.
0:26:44 > 0:26:48I don't do it in an angry way, although I can get angry if you push me that far.
0:26:48 > 0:26:50- I'll try not to, no.- Don't do it
0:26:50 > 0:26:53cos I can tell you where to put it if I don't like where you got it.
0:26:53 > 0:26:55This is...
0:26:55 > 0:26:58APPLAUSE
0:26:58 > 0:27:00'I was a guest of Wogan's a few times'
0:27:00 > 0:27:03and I found out how good he was. He's a terrific help.
0:27:03 > 0:27:07'He knows where the conversation should go, he'll help you out if you get into a hole.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10'Experience helps but also he's very charming.'
0:27:10 > 0:27:14The English are very tolerant and interested in it and it's very civilised.
0:27:14 > 0:27:16- I think I'm going to be sick! - LAUGHTER
0:27:16 > 0:27:20Sounded like Richard Attenborough's acceptance speech!
0:27:22 > 0:27:25Within two years Wogan was given what Parkinson had been denied -
0:27:25 > 0:27:32not quite a US-style Monday to Friday slot, but an unprecedented three nights a week of live TV chat.
0:27:32 > 0:27:36Welcome to the beginning of what I hope will be a long and happy relationship.
0:27:36 > 0:27:41At seven o'clock every Monday, Wednesday and Friday, this show will be coming to you live
0:27:41 > 0:27:45from the BBC Television Theatre on verdant Shepherds Bush Green, London.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49People forget that Wogan went out three times a week in prime time.
0:27:49 > 0:27:52There are hardly any chat shows in prime time now on British TV.
0:27:52 > 0:27:54He went out three times a week and live,
0:27:54 > 0:28:00and he really defined the light entertainment of the '80s. Everything came through his studio.
0:28:00 > 0:28:05And unlike his predecessor, Terry didn't feel overly compelled to research his guests.
0:28:05 > 0:28:09The big difference between working with Terry
0:28:09 > 0:28:12and Mike, of course, is that Terry was a broadcaster
0:28:12 > 0:28:16without a deep sense of curiosity, and that was the challenge
0:28:16 > 0:28:19when we decided to develop Terry as a talk show host.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21I tried to bring
0:28:21 > 0:28:23a spontaneity to it.
0:28:23 > 0:28:27I didn't want to be a slave, and I never have been to research.
0:28:27 > 0:28:31And didn't Mel Brooks give you the book as a birthday present?
0:28:31 > 0:28:33Oh, no, that's a pack of lies.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36- Is it?- Yes, that's a pack of lies. - I'm certainly glad
0:28:36 > 0:28:38we didn't have that in the research.
0:28:38 > 0:28:43- And you are celebrating some kind of anniversary, aren't you? - Am I? What am I celebrating?
0:28:43 > 0:28:45It says on the card there that you are.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50By the time housewives' favourite Michael Aspel had got in on the act
0:28:50 > 0:28:53with yet another talk show in the mid-'80s,
0:28:53 > 0:28:56the competition for stars was fierce and the stakes were high.
0:28:56 > 0:29:00'He is a performer, and has got'
0:29:00 > 0:29:03a very wry and dry sense of humour,
0:29:03 > 0:29:05but the show was never about him.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08It was always about the company.
0:29:08 > 0:29:14He's, on-screen, very engaging, very witty, very smart.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16I never enjoyed his chat show
0:29:16 > 0:29:18as much as I enjoyed the other shows he did,
0:29:18 > 0:29:24cos I didn't think he was a natural chat show host but I think as a presenter, he's brilliant.
0:29:24 > 0:29:26But no amount of talent
0:29:26 > 0:29:32could save a host from one of the chat show circuit's more unpredictable guests, Oliver Reed.
0:29:32 > 0:29:35'Landmark moments tend to be embarrassing, terrible or awful ones'
0:29:35 > 0:29:39and that's a shame. I mean, I was... I worked on some of them.
0:29:39 > 0:29:45I worked on Aspel, the drunken Oliver Reed night which is an extraordinary
0:29:45 > 0:29:48night in my career...
0:29:49 > 0:29:53..and is amazing to be part of something like that.
0:29:53 > 0:29:58To feel the tension and electricity of something major happening.
0:29:58 > 0:30:04# I was known as a wild one By all the folks around
0:30:04 > 0:30:06# I was known
0:30:06 > 0:30:09# I was known as the wild one... #
0:30:09 > 0:30:12I was Director of Programmes at the time
0:30:12 > 0:30:16and I remember the old Independent Television Commission complaining bitterly.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19I think they thought it was live. They'd have gone nuts
0:30:19 > 0:30:22if they'd known it was recorded the day before.
0:30:22 > 0:30:27But it was a piece of... It was a television event, somebody being so drunk.
0:30:29 > 0:30:33CLIVE JAMES: I remember that Michael Aspel show very well.
0:30:33 > 0:30:38My function was to sit there as the other guest... while Oliver Reed ran amok.
0:30:38 > 0:30:42I stepped in and asked the question, "Why do you drink?"
0:30:42 > 0:30:45Which Mike Aspel hadn't asked because he couldn't really,
0:30:45 > 0:30:50because the host can't do that on an entertainment talk show.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54Unless it was an investigation into Alcoholics Anonymous, the host couldn't do it.
0:30:54 > 0:30:56Why do you drink?
0:30:56 > 0:31:01Because the finest people that I've ever met in my life are in pubs.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07Ladies and gentlemen, Elizabeth Taylor.
0:31:07 > 0:31:09APPLAUSE
0:31:11 > 0:31:16But Aspel could still compete for the big Hollywood names, and memorably persuaded Liz Taylor
0:31:16 > 0:31:20to give her first ever interview on British television.
0:31:20 > 0:31:21'That was a phenomenal coup.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25'I mean, that was just an incredible booking.'
0:31:25 > 0:31:30On Aspel and Co there was always enormous competition for guests.
0:31:30 > 0:31:34It was a sign of how good you were as a researcher.
0:31:34 > 0:31:39You had your dream list of who you had to go and book and could you get them?
0:31:39 > 0:31:43You're looking slim and lovely now, but as the world knows,
0:31:43 > 0:31:46there was a time when of course you weren't quite as sylph-like.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49I was the great white whale.
0:31:49 > 0:31:53We have a picture here, which I'm sure you won't mind us seeing
0:31:53 > 0:31:56because in the context of your present appearance, there you are.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59Isn't that pretty?
0:31:59 > 0:32:01How long ago was that?
0:32:01 > 0:32:04About seven years ago.
0:32:04 > 0:32:05And how much did you weigh?
0:32:05 > 0:32:08I would say about 185.
0:32:08 > 0:32:11- What's that? 13 stone or something?- My God.
0:32:11 > 0:32:12That's a boiling piece.
0:32:14 > 0:32:18And while Liz delivered her side of the deal with a candid interview,
0:32:18 > 0:32:21she in turn got a promotional TV spot.
0:32:21 > 0:32:24'We were going to do an hour's special with Elizabeth Taylor,'
0:32:24 > 0:32:27and her request was that the whole of her dressing room
0:32:27 > 0:32:29had to be painted purple,
0:32:29 > 0:32:35which matched coincidentally the colour of the box of the perfume that she was promoting at the time.
0:32:36 > 0:32:40Long gone were the days when a guest was flattered to be invited onto a show.
0:32:40 > 0:32:43Now there were books to sell and films to promote.
0:32:43 > 0:32:46Plugging became openly acceptable.
0:32:46 > 0:32:51- Like this book Flying Visits which is coming out soon. - More free plugs than Currys!
0:32:51 > 0:32:55'The average chat show host tries to get the book or the record over'
0:32:55 > 0:32:58as fast as they can and talk about somebody's life.
0:32:58 > 0:33:02Of course, what the person that's coming on wants to do is plug the record.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04There's an inevitable conflict.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07Three Fugitives, it opens in 70 days.
0:33:07 > 0:33:12I came on this show to sell a book. I am in England to sell a book.
0:33:12 > 0:33:16They're not coming on because they love you or because they want
0:33:16 > 0:33:19to necessarily reveal their innermost selves or secrets.
0:33:19 > 0:33:23After 30 years of chat dominating the evening schedules,
0:33:23 > 0:33:27the emphasis suddenly switched to daytime television.
0:33:27 > 0:33:31Yes, hello. It is nice to be back but wasn't the weather absolutely fantastic last week?
0:33:31 > 0:33:34Summer rain now, so stay inside and watch This Morning.
0:33:34 > 0:33:38This mid-morning magazine format centred around conversation
0:33:38 > 0:33:42soon filled the void of daytime schedules.
0:33:42 > 0:33:47There was this huge black hole in the morning with nothing on at all,
0:33:47 > 0:33:51and there was potentially a very big available audience.
0:33:51 > 0:33:56# You'll wonder where the yellow went When you brush your teeth with Pepsodent. #
0:33:56 > 0:33:58At the heart of this success was the obvious rapport
0:33:58 > 0:34:03between the first husband and wife chat show double act, Richard Madeley and Judy Finnegan.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05'Doing a daily talk show'
0:34:05 > 0:34:08'is a very big strain'
0:34:08 > 0:34:13on the host. It hugely helps if there's two of them.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16'The husband and wife dynamic within This Morning
0:34:16 > 0:34:22'was hugely important to the success of the programme. They both are so together'
0:34:22 > 0:34:25as a couple, and have such a strong relationship,
0:34:25 > 0:34:28they know exactly what the other person is about to ask next.
0:34:30 > 0:34:34Even the Americans realised that celebrities were not the only way forward.
0:34:34 > 0:34:39The Phil Donahue show built on David Frost's discovery that a combination
0:34:39 > 0:34:46of non-celebrities, real issues and a studio audience could make great entertainment and great ratings.
0:34:46 > 0:34:50It broke down the fourth wall of the studio, if you like.
0:34:50 > 0:34:55And getting the audience involved made it much more of a dialogue.
0:34:55 > 0:34:57Now who doesn't wanna take ecstasy?
0:34:57 > 0:35:00'I was on holiday in Florida with my wife.'
0:35:00 > 0:35:05I'd never seen anything like this. He kept me out of the sunshine.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08We're always in ecstasy.
0:35:08 > 0:35:10'And from that day on, I said,'
0:35:10 > 0:35:13"I wanna do a show like that -
0:35:13 > 0:35:16"a live audience show with ordinary people talking about their fears,
0:35:16 > 0:35:19"their emotions, politics, whatever it was."
0:35:20 > 0:35:23Now that the chat show hot seat was open to all,
0:35:23 > 0:35:27the established conventions of the interview were really up for grabs.
0:35:27 > 0:35:32John Stapleton brought the idea home with him and British daytime TV changed forever.
0:35:32 > 0:35:37Hello, good morning. The time is ten o'clock, the place is the city of Leeds.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40'When I started doing The Time The Place,'
0:35:40 > 0:35:43the only competition we had on BBC, if I remember, was Play School,
0:35:43 > 0:35:46which was a completely different audience.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49'Its aim was to get ordinary people on the air'
0:35:49 > 0:35:52first thing in the morning to discuss topical issues,
0:35:52 > 0:35:56to hear the voice of the ordinary person. That was his big purpose.
0:35:56 > 0:35:59Ladies, would you have your fella wearing one of these?
0:35:59 > 0:36:04This is Errol, and he, for the purposes of this show, is modelling a...a skirt.
0:36:04 > 0:36:08But if keeping control of a couple of celebrities was often impossible,
0:36:08 > 0:36:12what were the chances of reining in a whole studio audience?
0:36:12 > 0:36:14'I thought it was a perfectly innocuous programme'
0:36:14 > 0:36:20about fashion, and two black guys in the audience stood up and started protesting.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23- Who else wouldn't wear one? You wouldn't be seen dead in one?- No.
0:36:23 > 0:36:28Listen, right, I dress in black because my people are dying in the mud, OK?
0:36:28 > 0:36:30- I'm not a joker, I don't joke. - Well...
0:36:30 > 0:36:34Now, you've got...you've got... This is racism going on here.
0:36:34 > 0:36:39You've got models here... three white boys there dressed nice
0:36:39 > 0:36:41and you've put my black brother in a dress.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45Now hang on a tick. I'm sorry, I'm not buying that for a single second.
0:36:45 > 0:36:50- My people's in the mud... - I am not entering a discussion... - We're catching fire.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54- I came here to talk about racism... - Not at our invitation you didn't. - Yes...
0:36:54 > 0:36:57'The fact of the matter is we were talking about fashion.
0:36:57 > 0:37:01'You can't have people hijack a programme and dictate their own agenda.'
0:37:01 > 0:37:03They were threatening and they were unpleasant,
0:37:03 > 0:37:07and...the programme, which was going out live, was pulled off air.
0:37:11 > 0:37:17Back in Hollywood, and prime time, even The Tonight Show had picked up on the enthusiasm for real people,
0:37:17 > 0:37:24and Johnny Carson had long been spicing up his celebrity roster with a few unknown eccentrics.
0:37:24 > 0:37:26We'll get a camera over here.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29Now that would be a... It's a dog! It's a dog!
0:37:29 > 0:37:32- An, an angry dog or an angry bear! - Kinda like a beagle.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34- All right. - OK?
0:37:38 > 0:37:42You go either way. I say... It's now a beagle, folks.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44- Whatever you see. - Well, OK.
0:37:44 > 0:37:46He was the first talk show host
0:37:46 > 0:37:49to feature real people regularly on a network show,
0:37:49 > 0:37:54by which I mean old ladies who collect crisps.
0:37:54 > 0:37:56Look at this one, John.
0:37:59 > 0:38:01No, no, no.
0:38:05 > 0:38:06No, I didn't.
0:38:08 > 0:38:09Oh, my God!
0:38:11 > 0:38:14But in 1992, after 30 years on top,
0:38:14 > 0:38:204,000 shows and 25,000 guests, Carson was finally to retire.
0:38:20 > 0:38:27# That rainy day is here. #
0:38:27 > 0:38:31Americans got used to watching Johnny before they went to bed,
0:38:31 > 0:38:35and he absolutely became part of the American cultural landscape.
0:38:36 > 0:38:40The final show was a hugely emotional TV event,
0:38:40 > 0:38:45and the big question was who would succeed Carson's chat show crown?
0:38:47 > 0:38:55The two main contenders for the post became comedian Jay Leno and NBC late-night host David Letterman.
0:38:55 > 0:38:59Letterman's always been quite clear. He would've always loved to have hosted the Tonight Show
0:38:59 > 0:39:02and Johnny Carson was absolutely his hero.
0:39:02 > 0:39:08The fight for the top job ended when NBC made the surprise choice of Jay Leno.
0:39:08 > 0:39:12NBC mainly went with Jay Leno because he was more controllable.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15David Letterman is the dark prince of late night,
0:39:15 > 0:39:21he is his own man, he doesn't take well to...
0:39:21 > 0:39:26doing what network executives tell him to do, whereas Jay Leno does.
0:39:26 > 0:39:31While Leno got the Tonight Show, wildcard Letterman turned failure into success
0:39:31 > 0:39:36with a shock 16 million move to rival network CBS.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38And I wanna thank them for their support,
0:39:38 > 0:39:43and also I would like to thank them for their generosity because...
0:39:45 > 0:39:47Letterman's a god.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50You can't better Letterman on a good night.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52And all the pretenders to the crown have come,
0:39:52 > 0:39:56you know, Jay Leno and Arsenio Hall and all those guys,
0:39:56 > 0:39:59none of them is a patch on Dave when he's on form.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01Most talk shows were pretty straight.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04There was very little comedy in-between them.
0:40:04 > 0:40:09Nobody had really done that sort of comedy/talk show format before then.
0:40:09 > 0:40:11The rise of the comedy talk show
0:40:11 > 0:40:16was in the first place fuelled by the success of Letterman
0:40:16 > 0:40:20who was defining his show through the '80s,
0:40:20 > 0:40:25and it took a few years for the British to realise
0:40:25 > 0:40:30there was a potential here to do something different.
0:40:31 > 0:40:37The first glimpse British audiences had of this variety-filled chat show with a comedy host
0:40:37 > 0:40:42was when a young Jonathan Ross unashamedly styled himself as "the British Letterman"
0:40:42 > 0:40:44for a new series on Channel 4.
0:40:44 > 0:40:48It was sort of stolen hook, line and sinker from that format,
0:40:48 > 0:40:55but it was a very simple format - it had a house band in the way that Letterman had a house band,
0:40:55 > 0:40:59and there were gags in the show in the way Letterman had it, there were stupid tricks.
0:40:59 > 0:41:05Everybody's gotta learn their talent somewhere and he was lucky he had those years at Channel Four
0:41:05 > 0:41:07where there was little or no responsibility.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09Doing a chat show on Channel Four,
0:41:09 > 0:41:14if it bombs, it's not the end of your career, it's a good learning curve.
0:41:14 > 0:41:16So he served his apprenticeship and it served him well.
0:41:18 > 0:41:22By the early 1990s, the influence of Letterman and the success of The Last Resort
0:41:22 > 0:41:30had spawned a raft of comedy-based chat shows, where the host was part interviewer and part stand-up comic.
0:41:32 > 0:41:37A former courtroom barrister, Clive Anderson's sharp mind and quick wit
0:41:37 > 0:41:40made him well qualified for the chat show host's chair.
0:41:40 > 0:41:44I've always done bits and bobs of comedy in my life,
0:41:44 > 0:41:48either scripts or doing a bit of stand-up, contributing here or there.
0:41:48 > 0:41:54So when you put the two together and end up interviewing somebody on television trying to be funny,
0:41:54 > 0:41:59as I am generally trying to do in those sort of shows, the fact that I've written a bit of comedy,
0:41:59 > 0:42:06and in court have cross-examined witnesses, it all seems to make sense.
0:42:06 > 0:42:11During those early days of Clive Anderson Talks Back you got quite a lot of edgy interviews,
0:42:11 > 0:42:14while the guests came on expecting one thing
0:42:14 > 0:42:17and then realised halfway through,
0:42:17 > 0:42:20"Hang on, this is...this is not a conventional chat show."
0:42:20 > 0:42:26I think the best example of that is Jeffrey Archer, who was completely caught by surprise.
0:42:26 > 0:42:29I would greatly admire someone who could write a novel quickly -
0:42:29 > 0:42:33I mean they take about...the latest one has taken 19 drafts,
0:42:33 > 0:42:36- Yes. - Every bit handwritten... - Yes.
0:42:36 > 0:42:40- ..and it isn't easy. - Which draft does the public get? - About the 19th, 20th.
0:42:40 > 0:42:43- Right. - You're really catching on tonight, Clive, I mean...
0:42:43 > 0:42:46- Very fast. - Yeah. Thank you very much. Now...
0:42:47 > 0:42:50Didn't know you were a critic as well.
0:42:50 > 0:42:52There's no beginning to your talents.
0:42:56 > 0:43:00You've moved on to your writing now. That's what you're famous for...
0:43:00 > 0:43:02All the old jokes are the best, I've got to admit that.
0:43:02 > 0:43:09If you ask a difficult question and there's a joke in it, it takes some of the sting out of the question.
0:43:09 > 0:43:14That's my theory, it's not always been proved correct in practice.
0:43:16 > 0:43:21This new breed of chat show host grabbed the spotlight more than ever before.
0:43:21 > 0:43:23Former TV critic Clive James took to the airwaves
0:43:23 > 0:43:30keen to distinguish his chat show with a mix of satire, monologues and interviews via satellite.
0:43:30 > 0:43:36On with the show, and in a week when it was revealed that Prince Charles's new youth-preserving diet
0:43:36 > 0:43:39consists of organic bean sprout paste on a cabbage leaf,
0:43:39 > 0:43:43the Prince tells us, "I feel so young, I could dance all night."
0:43:45 > 0:43:50Saturday Night Clive was a talk show, but it was also a look back at the week's news,
0:43:50 > 0:43:55and it was the first television show to really look at things like...
0:43:55 > 0:44:00re-interpreting news footage in a funny comic way or news stills.
0:44:00 > 0:44:03In fact, we were doing that before Have I Got News For You.
0:44:03 > 0:44:05The Soviet Union is still a super-power,
0:44:05 > 0:44:09and interference from the United States will not be tolerated.
0:44:09 > 0:44:14He told excited Russian crowds that US marines aren't as macho as people say...
0:44:15 > 0:44:18..but Soviet paratroopers are real men.
0:44:18 > 0:44:24Meanwhile on Channel Four, The Word took the attitude of these cheeky presenters
0:44:24 > 0:44:27and packaged it into a notorious late-night chat show
0:44:27 > 0:44:31which treated its guests to an added measure of provocation.
0:44:31 > 0:44:36I just think The Word was quite cutting, it was fairly unpretentious.
0:44:36 > 0:44:40It wasn't so much we would ask certain questions that other people wouldn't ask,
0:44:40 > 0:44:43we would couch them in a certain way.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45- So, so what provokes you now? - You!
0:44:45 > 0:44:48Oh, come on, really. Eh! Come on!
0:44:48 > 0:44:53The Word was the first TV show to actually do that, to do it to guests.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56All right, yeah, we'll give you a bit of this.
0:44:56 > 0:44:58Know what I mean? We're gonna shift you out of your comfort zone.
0:44:58 > 0:45:00You're wearing my ass paper-thin.
0:45:00 > 0:45:07I wanna tell you, I am like, I'm going to drag myself back into town into bed and have a...
0:45:07 > 0:45:10- See that's the whole idea of it. A bit of squirming on the show. - Yeah. Well...
0:45:10 > 0:45:12You provide plenty of that.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23Good evening, and welcome to TFI Friday. Friday night's live on Channel Four once again.
0:45:23 > 0:45:28Former DJ Chris Evans was another of this new wave of pushy presenters.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31Skilled at taking his guests out of their comfort zone,
0:45:31 > 0:45:38Evans embraced this outrageous approach on TFI Friday, his loud and laddish teatime chat show.
0:45:38 > 0:45:40I think the best person I ever saw was Chris Evans, really,
0:45:40 > 0:45:44who made you feel like you were there at his height of TFI Friday.
0:45:44 > 0:45:48He was a genius at being able to communicate this sense of fun
0:45:48 > 0:45:50and intimacy and everything, you know.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53- Very few people can do that. - If you don't swear tonight, I'll give ya my shoes.
0:45:53 > 0:45:55They'll do.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57All right?
0:45:57 > 0:45:5860 (BLEEP) good...
0:45:58 > 0:46:00Do you see?!
0:46:02 > 0:46:04We apologise for that.
0:46:04 > 0:46:05Try and do your best for me, mate.
0:46:05 > 0:46:09You never felt that there was a formula that was being abided to.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12Like radio, you could sort of bounce around wherever you wanted to go,
0:46:12 > 0:46:16and it just so happened that there was some cameras pointing at them.
0:46:18 > 0:46:22The next big break with the format came courtesy of comedienne Ruby Wax,
0:46:22 > 0:46:29who cleverly abandoned the studio for a more intimate, more hands-on approach with her guests.
0:46:29 > 0:46:33We're entering Imelda's abode, her humble abode, cos she was a little...
0:46:33 > 0:46:37Her town house. Very small, tiny, fall-from-grace marble town house.
0:46:37 > 0:46:40We're going here, OK.
0:46:40 > 0:46:42Gracias, amigo.
0:46:42 > 0:46:44# ..And dozy dotes and little lamsy divey
0:46:44 > 0:46:46# A kiddly divey, too wouldn't you? #
0:46:46 > 0:46:49Fidel Castro.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54Saddam Hussein.
0:46:54 > 0:46:59Ruby was so well prepared, she knew exactly what she was doing.
0:46:59 > 0:47:03The day before we left she said to me, "I need proper jewels."
0:47:03 > 0:47:08I persuaded Theo Fennell to give us £70,000 worth of jewellery
0:47:08 > 0:47:11so that Ruby could wear real jewels.
0:47:11 > 0:47:15She said, "When Imelda Marcos sees me, she'll think, "I'm one of you,"
0:47:15 > 0:47:22Absolutely. And so we had our half an hour with Imelda Marcos, it went into three days.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24Why are you mobbed when you go into the streets?
0:47:24 > 0:47:26What is it about you that they love so much?
0:47:26 > 0:47:29Maybe, maybe I'm transparent.
0:47:29 > 0:47:31Maybe they know what's in my heart.
0:47:31 > 0:47:33- Maybe they know... - They know the mother.
0:47:33 > 0:47:34If Imelda can do it...
0:47:34 > 0:47:36..everybody can do it.
0:47:36 > 0:47:38- That's probably why... - That's exactly what I would like to share.
0:47:38 > 0:47:42The people love you. They think if this little girl can come up and pull this stunt...
0:47:42 > 0:47:46this great piece of work, then anybody can.
0:47:46 > 0:47:50- Yes, if this is, it's a matter of attitudes, values and... - No, just let's go back...
0:47:50 > 0:47:54It was one of those little leaps forward that nobody had thought
0:47:54 > 0:47:57to go round their houses or their apartments and make fun of them,
0:47:57 > 0:48:01and look in their closets and say, "Look how many shoes you've got!"
0:48:01 > 0:48:03OK, so where next, Imelda?
0:48:03 > 0:48:05Imelda's toilet.
0:48:05 > 0:48:08This her loo, this is her flusher, this is her mirror.
0:48:08 > 0:48:13Chat show hosts do play a game with the people they invite on and particularly somebody like Ruby Wax,
0:48:13 > 0:48:20who maybe playing a trick on the guest that the celebrity doesn't quite know about,
0:48:20 > 0:48:25we know about, maybe the celebrity doesn't mind, because obviously they've let the show go ahead
0:48:25 > 0:48:30and go on the air, but it had a real sense of informality and danger and anything could happen.
0:48:32 > 0:48:37'And so our fairy princess may still live happily ever after.'
0:48:47 > 0:48:54To get into her flat, and to have the former dictator of the Philippines
0:48:54 > 0:48:57sing you Feelings one-on-one,
0:48:57 > 0:49:00you know, you just get beyond that and to sit there, in her flat,
0:49:00 > 0:49:05where she claimed with tears running her down that she was the mother of the nation,
0:49:05 > 0:49:10and the camera would pan left and you'd see a Pissarro and a Van Gogh which she'd nicked from the museum.
0:49:14 > 0:49:20Another female face on the chat show scene was comedienne Caroline Aherne.
0:49:20 > 0:49:25Although her creation Mrs Merton was anything but a gentle old lady,
0:49:25 > 0:49:30Aherne's persona allowed her to deliver clever, provocative comedy entirely at the guest's expense.
0:49:30 > 0:49:34Now, I'm not Harry Carpenter, anybody'll tell you that,
0:49:34 > 0:49:38but I do like a good ding-dong, we all do in the north west,
0:49:38 > 0:49:45so seconds out while I go the distance with everybody's favourite boxer, Chris Eubank.
0:49:47 > 0:49:52Chris Eubank during the weeks leading up to the show kept phoning me
0:49:52 > 0:49:56saying he was concerned he'd be made fun of in the show.
0:49:56 > 0:50:00Which is a bizarre thing to say, because of course he is!
0:50:00 > 0:50:02I like your outfit, Chris.
0:50:02 > 0:50:04- Mmm-hmm. - Is it Marksies?
0:50:08 > 0:50:10- Marks and Spencers? - No.
0:50:10 > 0:50:15I didn't wanna lose him as a guest. He said, "I'm concerned about the double-entendres,
0:50:15 > 0:50:21"because she says double-entendres and they are, they are rude and they are not respectful."
0:50:21 > 0:50:27And I looked at the script and... I said, "Well, it looks all right to me.
0:50:27 > 0:50:31"I think you'll be fine", so he said, "All right, I'll come."
0:50:31 > 0:50:37So he turned up on the night, and in this interview there was this one whopping big double-entendre.
0:50:37 > 0:50:39Were you as surprised as we all were,
0:50:39 > 0:50:45when he came from behind and he licked you in the ring? Were you surprised?
0:50:47 > 0:50:49Oh, come on, Chris!
0:50:49 > 0:50:51Chris Eubank, come on!
0:50:51 > 0:50:54It's a chat show!
0:50:54 > 0:50:59It's great when you watch it because, you know, you're at home and everything's gonna be all right,
0:50:59 > 0:51:01and she did some very good ad-libbing.
0:51:01 > 0:51:05They were in the studio, we didn't know if this show was ever gonna get going again!
0:51:05 > 0:51:08We didn't know if our guest was ever going to talk again!
0:51:08 > 0:51:12By the late '90s, it was difficult to imagine where the chat show could go next,
0:51:12 > 0:51:16but thanks to an Irish comedian we were so about to find out.
0:51:16 > 0:51:21But the main difference, the main difference between a straight man and a bisexual is about...
0:51:21 > 0:51:24mmm, four and half pints of lager...
0:51:26 > 0:51:29..in my experience.
0:51:29 > 0:51:32To do talk shows you need to be skilled in lots of areas,
0:51:32 > 0:51:35but most particularly I'd maintain
0:51:35 > 0:51:39you need comedic skills and stand-up comedic skills are important.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42Graham Norton got the very best from his celebrity guests
0:51:42 > 0:51:47when they entered his world full of risque jokes, raunchy audience members and hi-tech games.
0:51:47 > 0:51:51The show kind of came out of an Edinburgh show that I was doing,
0:51:51 > 0:51:56where I talked to the audience and then at the end did phone calls.
0:51:56 > 0:51:58And so that's where the phone calls came from.
0:51:58 > 0:52:02The internet was something the executive producer Graham Stuart suggested,
0:52:02 > 0:52:04and I said yes to humour him.
0:52:04 > 0:52:09I didn't know what the internet was and I assumed we'd do it in the pilot, and then we'd cut it out.
0:52:09 > 0:52:10Little did I know!
0:52:10 > 0:52:18Bob in New York. No, this is bizarre. He's well-built and into nude apartment cleaning.
0:52:20 > 0:52:23- We have to talk to him! - Well, he's a nudist!
0:52:23 > 0:52:25'The first moment on the So show,
0:52:25 > 0:52:29'where we kind of saw where it could go,'
0:52:29 > 0:52:33where she just grabbed the phone off me and was talking to this guy,
0:52:33 > 0:52:36the guy's going, "Is this really Grace Jones?"
0:52:36 > 0:52:40"Where have you been?" And, you know, she's getting all angry
0:52:40 > 0:52:45and then she's singing La Vie En Rose to him down the phone, and it was all unplanned.
0:52:45 > 0:52:48SHE SINGS IN FRENCH
0:52:58 > 0:53:00You got enough now? You happy?
0:53:00 > 0:53:02'I'll give you my address.'
0:53:04 > 0:53:07Thank you.
0:53:07 > 0:53:10- Bob? Bob?- 'I'll give you, I'll give you my address...'
0:53:10 > 0:53:17- Bob?- 'You send me a photo and...next time you're...- I'm gonna send you a washed-up picture!
0:53:17 > 0:53:22'The next time you're in New York I'll clean your apartment for free.'
0:53:22 > 0:53:27'To find out what makes somebody laugh, what shocks somebody, how they react to a certain thing,
0:53:27 > 0:53:30'is I think, more revealing'
0:53:30 > 0:53:33than asking them a direct question.
0:53:33 > 0:53:37What are the chances of you asking a question they haven't been asked before,
0:53:37 > 0:53:41or that they're gonna answer differently this time? They're just not!
0:53:43 > 0:53:47Norton's big reward for such innovation was the holy grail of
0:53:47 > 0:53:53chat shows. Channel Four gave him a US-style five-nights-a-week slot never before seen on British TV.
0:53:53 > 0:53:57'Weirdly, doing a five-nights-a-week show is very liberating,'
0:53:57 > 0:54:00because if you do a rubbish one, you just go,
0:54:00 > 0:54:03"Oh, well, we're doing another one tomorrow, hopefully it's better!"
0:54:03 > 0:54:06Whereas when you're doing once a week, it better be good.
0:54:06 > 0:54:13Ladies and gentlemen, Mr White in Reservoir Dogs and the star of Pulp Fiction, Harvey Keitel!
0:54:13 > 0:54:15'We worked very hard coming up with new stuff,'
0:54:15 > 0:54:20and trying not to repeat too many things.
0:54:20 > 0:54:24You're doing a sort of Cheerleader Challenge, but there's the real cheerleaders. Hello.
0:54:24 > 0:54:30Hello, real cheerleaders. Now, whereabouts are you from, what part of America?
0:54:30 > 0:54:33We're not, we're from Bracknell!
0:54:33 > 0:54:39'It was...I suppose the ultimate challenge for us to create,'
0:54:39 > 0:54:43you know, pretty high-powered entertainment on a nightly basis.
0:54:43 > 0:54:48Well, that was what set out to do and...and it was hard work
0:54:48 > 0:54:52but I believe that most of the time we succeeded.
0:54:55 > 0:55:00Despite the endless evolution of chat shows, in 1998, the BBC decided
0:55:00 > 0:55:06it was time to go back to basics, and after a gap of over 15 years, Parkinson was back at the BBC.
0:55:06 > 0:55:11'One of the attractions to guests appearing on the Parkinson show is'
0:55:11 > 0:55:14that they know they are going to be dealt with in a professional way
0:55:14 > 0:55:18by a man who knows his stuff.
0:55:18 > 0:55:22He will probe into areas where people may be reluctant to speak,
0:55:22 > 0:55:30but he manages to do it in a way that doesn't appear to be stepping over the mark,
0:55:30 > 0:55:34and to that extent, I think they feel safe.
0:55:34 > 0:55:37How difficult was it breaking up with Liz? Was that difficult?
0:55:37 > 0:55:42- You were with her a long time. - You slid that in from nowhere.
0:55:42 > 0:55:46I know, you came to see me backstage and we discussed a few topics
0:55:46 > 0:55:51we might talk about and, that never came up, but OK, it's up now.
0:55:51 > 0:55:55- Well, it's...- Judas! - Oh, no, please!
0:55:55 > 0:55:58No, it's fine. Well, it's sad, it's sad...Michael,
0:55:58 > 0:55:59or should I call you Parky?
0:55:59 > 0:56:02Whatever you want. Whatever you feel like doing.
0:56:02 > 0:56:06'As you get older, maybe because of that change in relationship'
0:56:06 > 0:56:10that you get because you're older, the job becomes in a sense easier.
0:56:10 > 0:56:13Maybe it's because you're more confident yourself,
0:56:13 > 0:56:17maybe because you have a clearer definition of who you are, I don't know.
0:56:17 > 0:56:23Or maybe it's because after having tried lots of other things in the meantime
0:56:23 > 0:56:27you actually would like to be back where you're most at home and that was a big part of it with me.
0:56:27 > 0:56:32The other curious thing too is you seem to do this when everything's going great for you.
0:56:32 > 0:56:36Your career's happening, everything...people love you,
0:56:36 > 0:56:40- then all of a sudden...away you go. What is it, boredom?- It's...
0:56:40 > 0:56:42I should be paying you £100 for this.
0:56:42 > 0:56:47- Yeah.- Should I lie back? Yeah, I dunno what it is.
0:56:47 > 0:56:52For me personally I get an awful lot of success and, a lot of the times
0:56:52 > 0:56:57I don't think I deserve it, and then I wanna sabotage it, you know, I wanna mess it all up but...
0:56:57 > 0:56:59'Parky had great guests,'
0:56:59 > 0:57:01but Parky made them great guests.
0:57:01 > 0:57:06He knew what he wanted to get out of them, and how he was gonna do it,
0:57:06 > 0:57:10and that's why he is and remains the king of the chat shows.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15For almost 60 years, our appetite for televised conversation has been
0:57:15 > 0:57:20fed with a constant stream of TV chat, from showbiz to pop,
0:57:20 > 0:57:24from serious to funny, to the almost surreal and the downright disturbing.
0:57:24 > 0:57:29So what's left in store for our favourite light entertainment show?
0:57:29 > 0:57:36The future of the talk show, I think, is completely and utterly secure.
0:57:36 > 0:57:42The challenge is to find new ways of doing a talk show, find new ways of involving an audience.
0:57:42 > 0:57:46There's always gonna be somebody else coming up in the ranks
0:57:46 > 0:57:51who you think has got that bit of magic, who... and what do you do with them?
0:57:51 > 0:57:53Well, you might give 'em their own chat show.
0:57:53 > 0:57:58The comedy show will actually last longer than the kind of show I do.
0:57:58 > 0:58:03I don't think it'll disappear, but I don't think it'll have the kind of profile that it has now.
0:58:03 > 0:58:09I might be wrong. I hope I am, because it will be a great job for some person to do, that's for sure.
0:58:11 > 0:58:14Next time on The Story Of Light Entertainment,
0:58:14 > 0:58:19the magicians, the dancers, the puppets and the circus acts
0:58:19 > 0:58:22from television's greatest show on earth - variety.
0:58:22 > 0:58:26It's never the trick, it's always the person doing it.
0:58:26 > 0:58:32I want to believe that I was born a showman, and there's nothing wrong with that.
0:58:32 > 0:58:37The Muppets were totally different than anything we'd ever seen before.
0:58:37 > 0:58:40That's one thing I never talk about, is puppets.
0:58:40 > 0:58:43That's the only thing I can't talk about. I know nothing about puppets.
0:58:43 > 0:58:45Why would you ask me about puppets?
0:58:50 > 0:58:52Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd