0:00:02 > 0:00:06A headline on the front page of The Sunday Telegraph: "Mosley appeals to churches".
0:00:06 > 0:00:09Nice to think he appeals to somebody.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12Satire is different to humour.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14It's edgier, it's tougher.
0:00:14 > 0:00:18It's more daring, more adventurous.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21- David, you're so marvellously witty. - Shut up, David.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Satire only works if you think, "Oh, that's right. That's true."
0:00:24 > 0:00:29- In that case, I'm just going to have to get back to you.- I don't think there should be limits.
0:00:29 > 0:00:35I think if you can get it funny enough, you can get near anything.
0:00:35 > 0:00:36PHONE RINGS
0:00:36 > 0:00:37Hello?
0:00:37 > 0:00:43If it's funny and if it's true and if it's sharp, then it's satire at its best.
0:00:48 > 0:00:53Hello, good evening and welcome to Frost On Satire.
0:00:53 > 0:00:57Some moments there from the last 50 years of television political satire.
0:00:57 > 0:01:02But in all this time, has that satire ever had a real effect?
0:01:02 > 0:01:08Can shows such as Spitting Image, Rory Bremner or Saturday Night Live change the political landscape?
0:01:08 > 0:01:13What ultimately is the power of satire on TV?
0:01:13 > 0:01:16Well, to find out I'm going to look at some of what I consider
0:01:16 > 0:01:21to be landmark shows of the past 50 years, both here and in America.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24And my journey starts where it all began,
0:01:24 > 0:01:31in Studio 2 at BBC TV Centre in West London.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34The date was 24th November 1962,
0:01:34 > 0:01:35and the show was...
0:01:40 > 0:01:44# That was the week that was
0:01:44 > 0:01:46# The bunnies are here, no doubt. #
0:01:46 > 0:01:49If you're worried about whether we can really
0:01:49 > 0:01:53look after all these missiles we're kindly being loaned by the United States,
0:01:53 > 0:01:58you may be reassured by this direct quotation from an Admiralty circular.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02"It is necessary for technical reasons that these warheads
0:02:02 > 0:02:05"should be stored with the top at the bottom,
0:02:05 > 0:02:07"and the bottom at the top.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10"In order that there may be no doubt which is the bottom
0:02:10 > 0:02:13"for storage purposes, it will be seen that the bottom of each head
0:02:13 > 0:02:17"has been labelled with the word 'Top'."
0:02:17 > 0:02:24Here, for the first time ever, was a satirical series that tackled the issues of the day head on.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29I tell you, it's a real man's life in the regular army.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31Never a dull moment.
0:02:34 > 0:02:35Why don't you join?
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Your country needs you...
0:02:39 > 0:02:41..to take my place.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44'The idea was to create a show that should,
0:02:44 > 0:02:49'in the words of the then Director General of the BBC, prick the pomposity of public figures.'
0:02:49 > 0:02:52Our other bouquet for the week goes to the Government
0:02:52 > 0:02:56for its sensitive handling of the half a million unemployed.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00Only yesterday, Mr Maudling received a delegation of the unemployed,
0:03:00 > 0:03:03and after talking to them for 10 minutes, he got up and said,
0:03:03 > 0:03:05"Well, I don't know about you, but I've got work to do."
0:03:05 > 0:03:09'It was groundbreaking on so many levels.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13'In its late night Saturday slot,
0:03:13 > 0:03:17'TW3 would discuss, dissect and indeed deride the news makers of the week
0:03:17 > 0:03:19'with startlingly direct language.
0:03:19 > 0:03:21'And no subject was taboo.'
0:03:21 > 0:03:25# Mississippi is the state you've got to choose
0:03:25 > 0:03:28# Where we hate all the darkies and the Catholics and the Jews
0:03:28 > 0:03:32# Where we welcome any man
0:03:32 > 0:03:35# If he's white and strong and belongs to the Ku Klux Klan. #
0:03:35 > 0:03:40From race relations in America, to rising illegitimacy rates in Britain.
0:03:40 > 0:03:45# Don't you weep, my little baby Cos you haven't got a dad
0:03:45 > 0:03:49# Go to sleep, my little baby
0:03:49 > 0:03:54# Things aren't really quite so bad
0:03:54 > 0:04:02# There's no reason any longer Why you ought to feel so blue
0:04:02 > 0:04:08# The world is full of bastards Just like you. #
0:04:08 > 0:04:14As perhaps a rather sad sign of the times, the News of the World is running a competition
0:04:14 > 0:04:21which is headed, "Picture yourself in this gay summer dress", followed by a coupon which begins here
0:04:21 > 0:04:27by asking you to state your hip size, and then goes on to enquire whether you are Miss, Mrs or Mr.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33The show also dared challenge the establishment like never before,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35aimed with a potent mix of humour,
0:04:35 > 0:04:38irreverence and some ferocious debate.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42When you grow older, you won't talk so much and you'll listen more.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45I hope I won't be so bigoted, Sir Cyril, as those you stand for.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48Look, first of all I'm not a socialist.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50But the socialist gospel has always been
0:04:50 > 0:04:54that all wealth comes from work, and you cannot have wealth without work.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57And satire, and this folly for which you stand,
0:04:57 > 0:04:59would leave our country,
0:04:59 > 0:05:01if it were the only thing we'd got,
0:05:01 > 0:05:02leave us hungry.
0:05:02 > 0:05:04Wealth comes from work.
0:05:04 > 0:05:09- Sir Cyril, Hunger Through Satire has never been my slogan, but, er... - LAUGHTER
0:05:11 > 0:05:15Heated debate would occasionally produce reactions from the audience.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17It was not a review, it was a vicious attack.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21It may well have been. But would you mind going back to your seat?
0:05:21 > 0:05:23There's just one tiny thing to be done.
0:05:23 > 0:05:28'But outbursts like this didn't deter the team from taking pot shots
0:05:28 > 0:05:31'at even the most senior political figures.'
0:05:31 > 0:05:35This has also been the week of Dean Acheson's sensational outburst,
0:05:35 > 0:05:36when he said....
0:05:36 > 0:05:38Having lost her empire,
0:05:38 > 0:05:40Britain is not quite as important
0:05:40 > 0:05:42in the world as she used to be.
0:05:42 > 0:05:43She cannot remain
0:05:43 > 0:05:45totally independent.
0:05:45 > 0:05:49Acheson's wild words have caused an international furore.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53What does Acheson think, Jack?
0:05:53 > 0:05:54It's Harold here.
0:05:54 > 0:05:59Harold MacMillan. M-A-C...
0:06:01 > 0:06:02Good night.
0:06:02 > 0:06:04APPLAUSE
0:06:05 > 0:06:12With an unflinching attitude to the status quo, our goal was simply to change the world a joke at a time.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15And not all the victims of our humour were amused by it.
0:06:15 > 0:06:21Complaints would pour in, questions were asked in the Commons, the papers had a field day.
0:06:21 > 0:06:26Despite this, the show ran for two thrillingly successful seasons.
0:06:26 > 0:06:32That Was The Week That Was really helped me to get involved in politics.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34When you started,
0:06:34 > 0:06:39I became, as a young doctor, an avid fan.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43And I rocked with laugher and thoroughly enjoyed the whole bloody thing.
0:06:43 > 0:06:51I think the spoofing of politicians appealed to me, and still does.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53Even when I'm on the receiving end of it.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56And I've been quite often on the receiving end of it!
0:06:56 > 0:07:03But with a general election on the way, lampooning politicians made the BBC nervous.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07And sadly, for those who loved it, TW3 was cancelled.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10So we took the show to America.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12'Live from New York.'
0:07:18 > 0:07:22# That was the week that was Panama's flag is flown... #
0:07:22 > 0:07:23TW3 paved the way
0:07:23 > 0:07:26for the young to criticise those in power
0:07:26 > 0:07:33And this new-found confidence to challenge authority was embraced by TV execs in the States.
0:07:35 > 0:07:41The American TW3 began its weekly run in January 1964.
0:07:41 > 0:07:47For those of you who wrote in that you hated our pilot show, wait until you see this one!
0:07:47 > 0:07:53'Like the UK version, the show poked fun at current political leaders.'
0:07:53 > 0:07:59A spokesman for the Republicans said today, "With the candidacy of Senator Barry Goldwater,
0:07:59 > 0:08:02"the Republican Party is on the way back.
0:08:02 > 0:08:06"And who knows? One day it may even go forwards."
0:08:06 > 0:08:11'But it was all too much for the US networks, and after the second season they pulled the plug.'
0:08:11 > 0:08:13That's it really.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16That WAS That Was The Week That Was, that was.
0:08:16 > 0:08:17Good night.
0:08:20 > 0:08:25# That was the week that was It's over, so bye-bye! #
0:08:25 > 0:08:29Was it really because the establishment thought TV satire was a serious threat?
0:08:29 > 0:08:37Well, whether they feared TW3 or not, the seeds for challenging authority had been sown.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40It was in the mid-'70s when young Americans found
0:08:40 > 0:08:47their voice again after Watergate and the Vietnam War had highlighted the failings of those in power.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49And now for my second announcement.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58Live from New York, it's Saturday Night!
0:09:01 > 0:09:05The bright young things at Saturday Night, soon to be Saturday Night Live,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08created a show that skewered American society
0:09:08 > 0:09:10and its key political figures.
0:09:12 > 0:09:19We've just arrived at the NBC's Studio 8H here in Manhattan.
0:09:19 > 0:09:26The very same studio 8H where we actually did That Was The Week That Was American version back in 1964.
0:09:26 > 0:09:32Nowadays the tradition continues with Saturday Night Live,
0:09:32 > 0:09:38which is alive and well, flourishing and kicking after 35 years.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42And so is its creator and producer, Lorne Michaels.
0:09:42 > 0:09:47- Does satire have to make you laugh? - Here it does, yes.- With an audience. - Yeah.
0:09:47 > 0:09:52There can be serious satire, I think, but not if you got an audience of 500 people.
0:09:52 > 0:09:58Yes, and serious comes after. First, you have to get the laugh.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02I'm going to bring out a special guest we've got with us tonight.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04This is Jimmy Carter's campaign manager.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11You described it once as a "satirical watchdog of power".
0:10:11 > 0:10:15Right? Did I? My God, I must have been in a very serious period.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18An eloquent moment that was.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21Principally, the job is to hold an audience.
0:10:21 > 0:10:28And to do it in an intelligent and hopefully thought-provoking way.
0:10:28 > 0:10:33You certainly don't put "thought-provoking" on the marquee.
0:10:33 > 0:10:39In the early days, which was, you know, er...
0:10:39 > 0:10:45everyone under 30 understood the show immediately.
0:10:45 > 0:10:49The kind of music we were putting on didn't appear on television at that time,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52the kind of topics, the sense of humour we were doing.
0:10:52 > 0:10:53- KNOCK ON DOOR - Come in.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Good afternoon, Mr President.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01Good afternoon, Dr Speck.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05I just want to say that these sessions have been great for me,
0:11:05 > 0:11:08and I'm feeling much more clear-headed already.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10I'm very glad to hear that, Mr President.
0:11:10 > 0:11:15- If you'd just like to lie down, we can get on with the session. - Wonderful. Thank you.
0:11:15 > 0:11:16Oh, boy.
0:11:16 > 0:11:20What do you think is the most powerful,
0:11:20 > 0:11:25single item you have produced over the last 35 years?
0:11:25 > 0:11:30It's so hard to narrow it down because they're different times.
0:11:30 > 0:11:38I think in the '70s when we began, we followed Watergate, and, er...
0:11:38 > 0:11:41and distrust of authority and opposition to authority was in the air.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45And now, Weekend Update with Chevy Chase.
0:11:45 > 0:11:50Weekend Update was a direct descendant of That Was The Week That Was,
0:11:50 > 0:11:57and so we came on with somehow a right to be able to question.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59President Nixon was formally pardoned
0:11:59 > 0:12:01for all Watergate crimes today
0:12:01 > 0:12:03by the People's Republic of China.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11Honouring the ailing former leader, the Chinese have named a new dish
0:12:11 > 0:12:15after Mr Nixon called Sweet And Sour Dick.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20I was a writer predominantly for 12 years out here,
0:12:20 > 0:12:22Lorne came looking for writers
0:12:22 > 0:12:28for this new show and we met and immediately got on.
0:12:28 > 0:12:34He was at the Chateau Marmont, a famous old hotel here in Los Angeles.
0:12:34 > 0:12:38I spent the day there in an interview with him as he interviewed others,
0:12:38 > 0:12:42so it was almost understood that I would come and write that stuff.
0:12:42 > 0:12:47And then you transmogrified into being the performer with Weekend Update.
0:12:47 > 0:12:53I never thought that would happen. Lorne pulled that out at the very last minute before the show.
0:12:53 > 0:12:59He said, "Chevy, get up and do something," and I did some news thing that I had written
0:12:59 > 0:13:01and I was used to doing that.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05He immediately accepted it and said we have got to use that.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09He came up with this Weekend Update concept, and that is where all that stuff began.
0:13:09 > 0:13:16- And I said, "That's Sir David Frost," I don't think it was Sir at the point.- That came later.
0:13:16 > 0:13:22Overworked and exhausted from his flight, the President mistakenly bumped his head on the face
0:13:22 > 0:13:26of a little girl who was presenting him with flowers at the airport.
0:13:26 > 0:13:31Smiling, but alert, secret service agents seized the child and wrestled her to the ground.
0:13:31 > 0:13:38I think the essence of what I wanted to do at the time, and what has been carried on
0:13:38 > 0:13:42as a tradition on that show, Saturday Night Live at least,
0:13:42 > 0:13:47the essence of it is to try and get one guy out and another guy in.
0:13:47 > 0:13:52We are all democratic liberals, so that is what we were doing.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54And in this case it was kind of an easy shot.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57Gerald Ford was falling all over the place.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00A very sweet man, and I liked him very much and I felt bad.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02- You got to know him later, didn't you?- Yes, I did.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04PHONE RINGS
0:14:04 > 0:14:07Hello? Hello?
0:14:07 > 0:14:11The other thing that was really original about that was that you...
0:14:11 > 0:14:19you obviously aped his gestures and all of that, but you didn't try to be Rich Little,
0:14:19 > 0:14:21you didn't go for the exact voice.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25No, I have no talent in that area.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28So, you were just you,
0:14:28 > 0:14:31- but being Gerald Ford.- Yes.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34Bang your head and say, "No problem."
0:14:35 > 0:14:40The difference between then and what has been done ever since is that they get impressionists,
0:14:40 > 0:14:46and if the writing is good and the impression is good, it's working.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50I can't do an impression any more than Steve Martin.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52We can't even do accents, guys like us.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56We're just lucky to be alive.
0:14:59 > 0:15:04So as SNL set the goal stand for satire in the States, in late '70s Britain,
0:15:04 > 0:15:09it takes a huge shift in politics for a major satire show to come along.
0:15:09 > 0:15:16Gentlemen, pray be upstanding for your most gracious Sovereign, the Queen.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20Good evening, boys.
0:15:20 > 0:15:21Good evening, Your Majesty.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25There were parodies, there were politicians,
0:15:25 > 0:15:29and most important of all, there were puppets.
0:15:29 > 0:15:34Spitting Image went on air on the 26th February 1984
0:15:34 > 0:15:37and ran on ITV for 12 years.
0:15:37 > 0:15:43For the millions who regularly tuned into the show, Sunday nights were never the same again.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51In my day, we were always very shy of calling ourselves satirists,
0:15:51 > 0:15:53because you'd done that
0:15:53 > 0:15:58and you were proper grown-up people that we adulated at school.
0:15:58 > 0:16:05The kind of things you did on TW3, and the kind of thing Bernard Levin did rather brilliantly too,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08was really thoughtful, properly researched pieces
0:16:08 > 0:16:12and in many ways Spitting Image is a much sort of simpler thing.
0:16:12 > 0:16:19What we kind of learnt was that you could call a person corrupt, incompetent or useless in any way,
0:16:19 > 0:16:24but if you said they had funny, little piggy eyes, they get really cross.
0:16:24 > 0:16:30What do we call it when people go around stealing other people's property? You?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33- A free-market economy?- Rubbish.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36Following in the footsteps of Gillray and Hogarth,
0:16:36 > 0:16:42Spitting Image brought the nation's politicians to life with a grotesque realism.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44Right, dismissed.
0:16:44 > 0:16:50I used to have to go to the IBA every week and report on why these jokes were funny.
0:16:50 > 0:16:59"John," said so and so, in a five-man meeting, "now you say here,
0:16:59 > 0:17:04"it's a Bernard Levin puppet, I understand, rather topical,
0:17:04 > 0:17:07"and somebody says to him, 'Why did you become a journalist?'
0:17:07 > 0:17:12"and he says, 'I think it was because I was circumcised with a pencil sharpener.'
0:17:12 > 0:17:15"Now, do you find that amusing, John?
0:17:15 > 0:17:17"Do you find that amusing?"
0:17:17 > 0:17:20I said, "Well, we think it's quite funny." "OK, well, moving on now..."
0:17:20 > 0:17:25Then they would go through all the jokes trying to work out why or whether they were funny,
0:17:25 > 0:17:31and there was one particular thing where I had to resort to saying I was a satirist
0:17:31 > 0:17:38when there was a famous sketch when Norman Tebbit's puppet was being interviewed about the unemployed
0:17:38 > 0:17:43and he said that if the unemployed are so hungry why don't they eat themselves?
0:17:47 > 0:17:52The chap at the IBA said, "Now, John, this really has gone too far -
0:17:52 > 0:17:55"Norman Tebbit eating the unemployed."
0:17:55 > 0:18:02And I said, "Well, you see, sir, it's a nod in the direction of Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal,
0:18:02 > 0:18:06"where he proposed that the Irish unemployed ate their own babies."
0:18:06 > 0:18:10And he said, "Oh, satire!" And I said, "Yes, that's right. Thank you, sir."
0:18:10 > 0:18:14"Oh, well, if it's Jonathan Swift, that's fine. Absolutely fine."
0:18:14 > 0:18:18So we would quite often hide behind you and your ilk,
0:18:18 > 0:18:22whereas actually we were just doing people with big noses really.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25The extraordinary thing about Spitting Image
0:18:25 > 0:18:27is that it had essentially a new medium,
0:18:27 > 0:18:28which was political puppets,
0:18:28 > 0:18:34and you added, at the time, an extraordinary series of people doing voices, people like Harry Enfield,
0:18:34 > 0:18:37doing the voices, Chris Barrie, extraordinary talent.
0:18:37 > 0:18:40Rory Bremner, doing voices.
0:18:40 > 0:18:47A group of puppeteers from the Henson workshops, who'd done amazing things already.
0:18:47 > 0:18:50So you had all these, and then you had some writers in,
0:18:50 > 0:18:53people like myself and Nick Newman, the cartoonist,
0:18:53 > 0:18:55brought in from a print tradition
0:18:55 > 0:18:57as well as the sketch one.
0:18:57 > 0:19:03And you shoved them all together at a time when the country was at its most divisive.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06I'm sorry, I couldn't get the hairspray.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09- Say that again? - Couldn't get their hairspray.
0:19:09 > 0:19:10And on this bit.
0:19:10 > 0:19:14- Hairspray.- That'll do nicely.
0:19:14 > 0:19:15Once it got going,
0:19:15 > 0:19:19it used to this terrible power that satire shows can have
0:19:19 > 0:19:23for actually influencing the way an individual is seen.
0:19:23 > 0:19:30There are two basic ways. You can either write satire about the issues or about the personalities.
0:19:30 > 0:19:36And, for obvious reasons, Spitting Image tended to be focused
0:19:36 > 0:19:39on the personalities in politics, the actual people.
0:19:39 > 0:19:44And they would often pin an identifiable tag on somebody.
0:19:44 > 0:19:49And because more people watch TV comedy than Today In Parliament,
0:19:49 > 0:19:51those tags really stuck.
0:19:51 > 0:19:57So Norman Tebbit as this leather-jacketed thug, or Heseltine sweeping his hair around,
0:19:57 > 0:20:01those images really went into people's heads.
0:20:01 > 0:20:06I apologise for any possibility that I may have misled the House
0:20:06 > 0:20:09by giving the impression that I was a competent minister
0:20:09 > 0:20:11who knew what he was talking about.
0:20:11 > 0:20:16Of course, some politicians didn't like the way they were represented at all.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19And I am completely useless.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23I was actually accosted in your garden by Diana Britton,
0:20:23 > 0:20:29as she became, but was then Leon Britton's girlfriend, who said,
0:20:29 > 0:20:33"Look, Leon's only got three warts on his face and you given him five."
0:20:33 > 0:20:39And Leon popped out of the bush and said, "Yes, look, you see, one, two, three. It's totally unfair."
0:20:39 > 0:20:45And David Steel famously used to say, "I'm half an inch taller than Neil Kinnock. It's totally unfair.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49"I'm portrayed as a tiny little man in David Owen's pocket."
0:20:51 > 0:20:57I think it's to David Steel's credit that it didn't appear to be
0:20:57 > 0:21:00a major issue, but, underneath, it must have been.
0:21:00 > 0:21:04He would have less than human nature not to be upset about it.
0:21:04 > 0:21:09It was not a true picture of our relationship, but it had enough truth
0:21:09 > 0:21:15to be able to wildly exaggerate it and therefore make it appealing and attractive for satire.
0:21:15 > 0:21:21And it was a curse really, that this was being exaggerated out there.
0:21:21 > 0:21:25It was not helpful, but you had to admit it was quite funny.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27David, you're so marvellously witty.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29Shut up, David.
0:21:29 > 0:21:31Hurt me, you hunky thing.
0:21:31 > 0:21:36It's a funny thing about satirical representational caricature,
0:21:36 > 0:21:39that it's the strong characters who simply appear stronger.
0:21:39 > 0:21:44So all of the big beasts, Heseltine, Mrs Thatcher,
0:21:44 > 0:21:51Tebbit, the more you mocked them for being mace-wielding, axe murderers,
0:21:51 > 0:21:52the bigger they became.
0:21:52 > 0:21:57And the weedy ones who spent all their time moaning and complaining about how unfair it was
0:21:57 > 0:22:01and how they didn't have a very big nose just seemed smaller and smaller.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04I'm sorry, Nigel, it won't do.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06It must be changed.
0:22:06 > 0:22:07You know what to do.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13All right, I give in.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16Tebbit said, "I was one of the few politicians who liked my puppet."
0:22:16 > 0:22:21He loved the leather jacket, he loved the bruiser image and thought it was very funny,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25because, as you know, he has a great sense of humour, Tebbit - very funny man.
0:22:25 > 0:22:30He said to me, "You know, John, the great thing about politics in those days,
0:22:30 > 0:22:32"we all knew how much it mattered.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35"We had to take some very difficult decisions.
0:22:35 > 0:22:40"I'll tell you now, we made some bad mistakes, but a lot of the stuff we had to do it."
0:22:40 > 0:22:44And that was kind of what was fun about television in the '80s,
0:22:44 > 0:22:48and exciting and risky, was that people minded.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51They really, really cared.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55The government cared and we cared that they had to be called to account,
0:22:55 > 0:22:57and in some cases mocked openly.
0:22:57 > 0:23:03I have a theory about satire in that it functions best in eras when politics is very polarised.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07When everyone's in the middle agreeing, it's much harder for satire
0:23:07 > 0:23:12to identify what the issues are and find the contrasting personalities.
0:23:12 > 0:23:17But if you look at the Thatcher era in Britain, you had the parties way apart.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19We had riots on the streets.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23People weren't politely disagreeing about policy, they were actually out there,
0:23:23 > 0:23:29and that gave a set of very disparate, larger-than-life people in a Punch and Judy show.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32I think that power has to be checked.
0:23:32 > 0:23:37You need cabinets to check it, you need legislature checking politicians' power,
0:23:37 > 0:23:42and one of the ways to check them is humour and satire.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45And satire is different to humour.
0:23:45 > 0:23:51It's edgier, tougher, it's more daring, more adventurous.
0:23:51 > 0:23:55I certainly used to take my job very seriously and responsibly
0:23:55 > 0:24:01and say that we needed to get the facts as right as we could, and then fire arrows at people
0:24:01 > 0:24:07in our callow, juvenile judgment deserved a bit of a thrashing.
0:24:07 > 0:24:13- So, satire can change the world or not?- Not in my experience. I think satire changes perceptions,
0:24:13 > 0:24:16but I don't think it changes the actuality.
0:24:16 > 0:24:23When I left Spitting Image after the first four years of it, I certainly felt we had achieved nothing
0:24:23 > 0:24:29but possibly made the government slightly more powerful than we had found it.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33In the late '80s, Spitting Image was continuing to enjoy great success,
0:24:33 > 0:24:37but its creators were frustrated.
0:24:37 > 0:24:42The entire direction of politics had not yet been transformed.
0:24:42 > 0:24:47Then, in 1989, with the politicians of the day still providing satirists with rich pickings,
0:24:47 > 0:24:50the BBC commissioned its own satire show
0:24:50 > 0:24:54with a bright young star who provided some of the voices for Spitting Image.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57- AS HATTERSLEY:- I don't want to spoil your fun, Neil, but you're crap.
0:24:57 > 0:25:02If you want votes, it's your act you need to tidy up.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07I saw Thatcher's routine last week, and she's got them eating out of her hand. Get yourself a strategy.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10"Oh, bloody hell." "That'll do for a start."
0:25:10 > 0:25:13Early on, I started out doing, you know,
0:25:13 > 0:25:17cricket commentators, the Richie Benauds, the Bill McLarens,
0:25:17 > 0:25:21who's no longer with us, but, of course, a fond memory.
0:25:21 > 0:25:26And I used to love all that, because I was a fan, and then increasingly working with John Wells
0:25:26 > 0:25:30at the beginning of the '90s, and then with John Bird and John Fortune,
0:25:30 > 0:25:36I began to feel I should be doing more with the voices and I became more interested politically.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39If it's true, as they say, that you can't mix sport and politics,
0:25:39 > 0:25:43why have the government got so many substitutes on the front bench?
0:25:43 > 0:25:47Like Spitting Image, Bremner set about the political figures of the day.
0:25:47 > 0:25:54But this time not only was it important to get the voice right, but the whole impersonation accurate.
0:25:54 > 0:25:59- AS RICHIE BENAUD:- 1979, of course, the year when the England opener Thatcher went in.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02She followed on, and on, and on -
0:26:02 > 0:26:06rather reminded me of the great Geoffrey Boycott.
0:26:06 > 0:26:11She's out there for a whole match, grinds down the opposition and then runs everyone out.
0:26:11 > 0:26:14I don't rehearse in front of a mirror a lot of the time.
0:26:14 > 0:26:18Most impressionists will tell you what you have in your head
0:26:18 > 0:26:20is a film that's running as you're talking.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24There's a film of the character you are being, and you can see in your mind's eye.
0:26:24 > 0:26:29It's like you're watching a film in your mind's eye to which you're providing the soundtrack,
0:26:29 > 0:26:31and that's how it works.
0:26:31 > 0:26:36And you can hear yourself being the voice, the film that is in your mind, and that all projects out.
0:26:36 > 0:26:42And hopefully it all works instinctively and it comes out through your face naturally.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45I almost went into you for a moment there.
0:26:45 > 0:26:51- AS DAVID FROST:- You feel yourself doing those, those facial gestures
0:26:51 > 0:26:53like you're doing now.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56And it all becomes part of the characterisation.
0:26:56 > 0:27:00Thank you very much, Rory Bremner.
0:27:00 > 0:27:03- AMERICAN ACCENT: - Maggie, we were a team.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06- A touch of class. - I kissed your hand.
0:27:06 > 0:27:07I kissed yours too.
0:27:07 > 0:27:13Ah, yes, I remember it well.
0:27:13 > 0:27:17The most satisfying times are when you can actually nail a politician
0:27:17 > 0:27:24or a character with a line that you hope forever more when people see that person,
0:27:24 > 0:27:29they will have in their mind the caricature, so if you can reduce that to one line.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33With John Major, it was, "I'm still here.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35"They said it couldn't be done.
0:27:35 > 0:27:39"It wasn't. They said I wasn't up to the job, I'm not."
0:27:39 > 0:27:45And, of course, life imitating art, as it were, I remember watching a press conference he did one day.
0:27:45 > 0:27:50And he was asked if he would resign or not, and Major stood there and said, "I'm still here."
0:27:50 > 0:27:57So the satirical line had become had become attached to him permanently.
0:27:57 > 0:28:02Of all the targets you have done over the years, so far, who or what has been the most fun?
0:28:02 > 0:28:06I enjoyed being Bill Clinton because he had the licence to be a bit naughty.
0:28:06 > 0:28:10You could flirt with the interviewer and you could say,
0:28:10 > 0:28:14"Well, when I was in government a lot of great things happened under me,
0:28:14 > 0:28:16"but let's not go into that." You have that.
0:28:16 > 0:28:20They were, from a personal point of view, were fun to do.
0:28:20 > 0:28:27With Blair, it was the kind of openness and sibilance and those S's and the rhythm,
0:28:27 > 0:28:32which was very much in his speeches which we caricatured, as "tea for two, of course.
0:28:32 > 0:28:36"Of course, tea for two, but also two for tea.
0:28:36 > 0:28:41"I like apple pie, unless of course you don't like apple pie."
0:28:41 > 0:28:45We struggled for a couple of years when Blair came in to think, "Where is it?
0:28:45 > 0:28:48"What's at the heart of this government?
0:28:48 > 0:28:51That is when we invented the Blair/Campbell sketches.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54The fly on the wall, Andy Dunn as Alastair Campbell, me as Tony Blair.
0:28:54 > 0:28:58Well, you messed up this time, didn't you?
0:28:58 > 0:29:00May 3rd, go for it, go for May 3rd.
0:29:00 > 0:29:04It's all geared up for you, May 3rd, May 3rd, May 3rd.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06I think, "OK, maybe May 3rd's a good idea."
0:29:06 > 0:29:10Suddenly it all changes, all up in the air and I'm left with egg on my arse.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13Hey, just back off. It's not the press's fault, is it?
0:29:13 > 0:29:18It's the public. They're the ones who went ahead and change their minds without telling anyone.
0:29:20 > 0:29:24Yeah, the public. Don't get me started on them. The public moan, moan, moan.
0:29:24 > 0:29:29They were the ones who thought we might achieve something, who thought we might make a difference.
0:29:29 > 0:29:32They were the ones with the ambition. It wasn't me.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36I always think with things there is a comic line and a true line.
0:29:36 > 0:29:40And the most satisfying comedy you ever do is when the comic line
0:29:40 > 0:29:43and the true line are going the same direction and are side by side.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46People are laughing, but laughing at the truth.
0:29:46 > 0:29:54That is why when it is just gratuitous for the sake of getting a laugh, it's not so satisfying.
0:29:54 > 0:30:01If it hits the target, if it's funny, and if it's true and if it's sharp, then it's satire at its best.
0:30:01 > 0:30:06Rory Bremner is very political these days, and at times,
0:30:06 > 0:30:12when the Blair sort of thing was at its height
0:30:12 > 0:30:15and everybody thought Blair was great, at that time,
0:30:15 > 0:30:20Rory Bremner spotted first the flaws in Blair
0:30:20 > 0:30:25and was quite lethal, really, in penetrating it.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27And I think it was a great service, actually.
0:30:27 > 0:30:29There was no really serious opposition,
0:30:29 > 0:30:31and I think that was extremely important.
0:30:31 > 0:30:36We just need, you know, we need a message.
0:30:36 > 0:30:37Something we haven't said before.
0:30:42 > 0:30:46All right, something we have said before but they won't remember.
0:30:46 > 0:30:51How much do you think you can trace the clear impact that it's had?
0:30:51 > 0:30:57I think reading Campbell's Diaries afterwards and seeing what has come out of various inquiries,
0:30:57 > 0:31:03like the Chilcot Inquiry, a lot of it now, you realise that we weren't that far off the mark.
0:31:03 > 0:31:09It was funny, but more importantly it just got under their guard a little bit,
0:31:09 > 0:31:12and I think it slightly...
0:31:12 > 0:31:17It felt like it annoyed them, and subsequently
0:31:17 > 0:31:20it's felt like we were on to something.
0:31:20 > 0:31:24So, for satire to work, it needs targets.
0:31:24 > 0:31:28And the more those targets divide opinion, the better it works.
0:31:28 > 0:31:34And when those targets were lost, as they were when, say, Margaret Thatcher left power,
0:31:34 > 0:31:38satire tends to run out of steam, as it did in Britain.
0:31:38 > 0:31:44In America, however, their counterparts were about to enter a new golden age.
0:31:44 > 0:31:51Other people may drop like flies in this administration, but I want to be around for a long time -
0:31:51 > 0:31:57on the job, making the tough decisions, 24/7, that's 24 hours a week...
0:32:03 > 0:32:06..seven months a year.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10I wasn't really known in our cast for being, you know,
0:32:10 > 0:32:14someone who had that as part of my repertoire.
0:32:14 > 0:32:21I had written a sketch called Janet Reno's Dance Party, so I would perform as Janet Reno,
0:32:21 > 0:32:24the former Attorney-General, which was just me in a dress,
0:32:24 > 0:32:27which anyone can do. You could do that, David.
0:32:27 > 0:32:29- Yes, I'll let you go first.- OK.
0:32:29 > 0:32:33So I wasn't really known for that sort of thing.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36There was a member of our cast, Darrell Hammond,
0:32:36 > 0:32:40who was kind of like the go-to guy for all these impersonations,
0:32:40 > 0:32:46and he had an excellent Al Gore waiting to go.
0:32:46 > 0:32:50Lorne Michaels, the producer of Saturday Night Live said, "Do you want to do Bush?"
0:32:50 > 0:32:54Just this kind of like, "You in the room here, you want to do Bush?"
0:32:54 > 0:32:58I said, "Sure, I'll try it." And that's kind of how it started.
0:32:58 > 0:33:04What made Bush such a good target, as it were?
0:33:04 > 0:33:11Well, I think you had someone who misspoke frequently.
0:33:11 > 0:33:14- Yeah.- Um, he, er...
0:33:14 > 0:33:19and also this kind of...essentially what was a fraternity boy
0:33:19 > 0:33:23who had kind of become President, really.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26It's a guy who is kind of petulant at times,
0:33:26 > 0:33:33a little bit of "my way or the highway" approach to his policy.
0:33:33 > 0:33:40I really think it was the petulance and all stuff that made him so kind of fascinating to me.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44Some of the lines that are attributed to him now
0:33:44 > 0:33:48were probably actually created by you, for instance.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51I don't know whether you did this one,
0:33:51 > 0:33:57but I'm sure the one about "the French don't even have a word for entrepreneur",
0:33:57 > 0:34:01I'm sure he never said that, but somebody said it, and it was so convincing.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04- I think he did.- Do you?- Yeah.
0:34:04 > 0:34:10I will instead ask each candidate to sum up in a single word the best argument for his candidacy.
0:34:10 > 0:34:11Governor Bush?
0:34:11 > 0:34:13Strategery.
0:34:17 > 0:34:23The one word or phrase that we were able to kind of contribute to the lexicon was "strategery".
0:34:23 > 0:34:28We found out later they would use that in their meetings. "Let's have a strategery meeting."
0:34:28 > 0:34:32Er, but yes, it was very interesting
0:34:32 > 0:34:37in the sense that I was either accused or applauded by some people
0:34:37 > 0:34:44for helping him win the election, the first election.
0:34:44 > 0:34:50Because people said they found my portrayal to make him, in a weird way, kind of likeable,
0:34:52 > 0:34:57and er, which, I don't know, I never put much credence in it either way.
0:34:57 > 0:35:02So, if Ferrell's impersonation did really help Bush win an election,
0:35:02 > 0:35:06it can be argued then that satire is directly influential,
0:35:06 > 0:35:10though not necessarily in the way it was intended.
0:35:10 > 0:35:16In George Bush, American comics and commentators had their perfect satirical quarry.
0:35:16 > 0:35:21But when George W was about to leave office, it seemed there was no obvious replacement.
0:35:21 > 0:35:27And then John McCain picked an unknown Senator as his running mate for the US Presidential elections.
0:35:27 > 0:35:32Governor Sarah Palin of the great State of Alaska!
0:35:32 > 0:35:38That was the most asinine thing I've ever seen, McCain doing that.
0:35:38 > 0:35:41And she is just ripe, ready to go at.
0:35:41 > 0:35:45And I don't think she knows it, and I think she's enjoying herself,
0:35:45 > 0:35:48but she's about as bright as an egg-timer.
0:35:48 > 0:35:50I don't know what that's all about.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53You've cited Alaska's proximity to Russia
0:35:53 > 0:35:56as part of your foreign policy experience.
0:35:56 > 0:35:58What did you mean by that?
0:35:58 > 0:36:00That Alaska has a very narrow maritime border
0:36:00 > 0:36:03between a foreign country, Russia,
0:36:03 > 0:36:09and on our other side, the land boundary that we have with Canada.
0:36:09 > 0:36:13It's funny that a comment like that was kind of made to,
0:36:13 > 0:36:15char... I don't know.
0:36:15 > 0:36:19From this Sarah Palin interview with CBS's Katie Couric,
0:36:19 > 0:36:28ex-Saturday Night Liver Tina Fey was able to draw much of her material from what Palin had actually said.
0:36:28 > 0:36:33On foreign policy, I want to give you one more chance
0:36:33 > 0:36:41to explain your claim that you have foreign policy experience based on Alaska's proximity to Russia.
0:36:41 > 0:36:43What did you mean by that?
0:36:43 > 0:36:50Well, Alaska and Russia are only separated by a narrow maritime border.
0:36:50 > 0:36:55You've got Alaska here, and this right here is water, and up there's Russia.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58So we keep an eye on them.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00LAUGHTER
0:37:04 > 0:37:06And how do you do that exactly?
0:37:06 > 0:37:11Every morning when Alaskans wake up, one of the first things they do is
0:37:11 > 0:37:15look outside to see if there any Russians hanging around.
0:37:15 > 0:37:18If there are, you've got to go up to them and ask, "What are you doing here?"
0:37:18 > 0:37:21And if they can give you a good reason, or they can't,
0:37:21 > 0:37:26it's our responsibility to say, you know, "Shoo! Get back over there."
0:37:26 > 0:37:29Shown just a few weeks before the election,
0:37:29 > 0:37:31despite its late night slot,
0:37:31 > 0:37:37at its peak it's been estimated that over 17 million people were watching Tina Fey as Sarah Palin.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41So was Sarah Palin your first serious impersonation...
0:37:41 > 0:37:42or funny, rather than serious.
0:37:42 > 0:37:43My first and only.
0:37:43 > 0:37:49I had been on Saturday Night Live as a writer for a long time.
0:37:49 > 0:37:51- The head writer.. - The head writer eventually.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54And I did the news segment that they call Weekend Update,
0:37:54 > 0:37:56so we did a lot of political jokes,
0:37:56 > 0:38:01but I was never really in the cast in the way that the other performers were.
0:38:01 > 0:38:05I was rarely ever even in sketches, let alone called upon to do an impression,
0:38:05 > 0:38:12and I think people forgot that that wasn't really anything I had ever attempted before.
0:38:12 > 0:38:17So when you agreed to come back and do Sarah Palin,
0:38:17 > 0:38:22did you expect it to be as big, as huge a hit as it was, or was that a surprise to you?
0:38:22 > 0:38:27It was a big surprise. She came on the scene, really, in August -
0:38:27 > 0:38:31she was chosen as McCain's running mate in August,
0:38:31 > 0:38:35and I started getting e-mails saying, "You should play her."
0:38:35 > 0:38:40People, one, forgot that I didn't work there any more, and two, forgot that I didn't have those skills.
0:38:40 > 0:38:47I think she was just such a compelling media character immediately.
0:38:47 > 0:38:53She's so telegenic and so likeable, so polarising pretty quickly that people wanted to see her portrayed.
0:38:53 > 0:38:59And so I sort of thought that it became clear that I would have to try and do it at least once.
0:38:59 > 0:39:04I thought, "This will be terrible and we'll do it once and everybody will say it was terrible."
0:39:04 > 0:39:10In that area, you're looking for one or two outstanding characteristics.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13What did you seize on first of all?
0:39:13 > 0:39:19Well, she has, er... Former Governor Palin has a very distinct accent,
0:39:19 > 0:39:22and she had a very folksy way of speaking.
0:39:22 > 0:39:29She would drop her Gs at the end of words and was very heartfelt and she smiled a lot.
0:39:29 > 0:39:36What lessons have you learned from Iraq and how specifically would you spread democracy abroad?
0:39:36 > 0:39:42Specifically, we would make every effort possible to spread democracy abroad to those who want it.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48Yes, but specifically, what would you do?
0:39:48 > 0:39:50LAUGHTER
0:39:57 > 0:40:00Katie, I'd like to use one of my lifelines.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:40:08 > 0:40:11- I'm sorry?- I want to phone a friend.
0:40:13 > 0:40:15You don't have any lifelines.
0:40:15 > 0:40:20Well, in that case, I'm just gonna have to get back to ya!
0:40:21 > 0:40:23Do you think that slightly damaged her,
0:40:23 > 0:40:31or did it build her up into being now a vaguely potential Presidential nominee?
0:40:31 > 0:40:35They made the decision not to allow her
0:40:35 > 0:40:37out there much with the press,
0:40:37 > 0:40:40and so there had been the one interview,
0:40:40 > 0:40:46the Katie Couric interview, and then Tina pretty much defined her,
0:40:46 > 0:40:50because we were doing it more frequently than she was speaking.
0:40:50 > 0:40:56Our version became more vivid and real, and I think that we helped define her in a certain way.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59I believe global warming is caused by man.
0:40:59 > 0:41:04And I believe it's just God hugging us closer.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09I don't agree with the Bush doctrine.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12I don't know what that is.
0:41:12 > 0:41:16Do you think you do, in terms of satire, and I think one can,
0:41:16 > 0:41:19have an effect? Satire can have a real effect.
0:41:19 > 0:41:25Yes, I think every four years Saturday Night Live
0:41:25 > 0:41:31finds itself in a spotlight that it doesn't really have either before or after.
0:41:31 > 0:41:35This last election cycle was no different with Tina Fey
0:41:35 > 0:41:37playing Sarah Palin,
0:41:37 > 0:41:44and I actually came on for one of the shows that they did, and we did a sketch
0:41:44 > 0:41:47with myself and Darrell playing McCain.
0:41:47 > 0:41:50A vote for John McCain is a vote for George W Bush.
0:41:54 > 0:41:56You're welcome.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00I want to be there for you, John, for the next eight years.
0:42:00 > 0:42:02The next 16 years!
0:42:04 > 0:42:06And later all the news shows said
0:42:06 > 0:42:09that summed it up perfectly.
0:42:11 > 0:42:14I think that show
0:42:14 > 0:42:16can kind of shape people's views.
0:42:16 > 0:42:25Tina Fey's impersonation is seen by many as the pinnacle of modern-day television satire in the US.
0:42:25 > 0:42:28And as for its political impact, according to the New York Times,
0:42:28 > 0:42:34the sketch "undermined Palin's plausibility as a candidate".
0:42:34 > 0:42:39Satire now makes big media stars. It's got that power.
0:42:39 > 0:42:45And not just those performing it, but also the politicians who are in the firing line as well.
0:42:50 > 0:42:55Alongside these headline-grabbing impressionists, we've seen a return to the roots of TV satire
0:42:55 > 0:43:02and shows like TW3, where the focus was on razor-sharp wit rather than outstanding impersonation.
0:43:07 > 0:43:11I think television wanted to have an equivalent to...
0:43:11 > 0:43:15There's a long-running radio news quiz in this country,
0:43:15 > 0:43:20and it wanted to try and recreate that in a mainstream televisual way.
0:43:20 > 0:43:25And what it wanted to do was pair up essentially myself, who was more considered as a journalist,
0:43:25 > 0:43:29with Paul Merton, who was a great stand-up, an improviser.
0:43:29 > 0:43:34And the idea was to put these two different sorts of comedy
0:43:34 > 0:43:37into one framework and see whether it would work.
0:43:37 > 0:43:39Keep your nose out of Ulster.
0:43:39 > 0:43:42Clinton, who is the new President of the United States,
0:43:42 > 0:43:45has said he is going to solve the problems of Ulster,
0:43:45 > 0:43:47and people are very upset
0:43:47 > 0:43:50that the Americans are telling us how to run our country,
0:43:50 > 0:43:52because that's the Germans' job.
0:43:53 > 0:43:58And the experiment paid off, as the show's been on our screens for two decades.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01The odd thing Have I Got News For You does
0:44:01 > 0:44:05is have real politicians coming onto a show whose format
0:44:05 > 0:44:09they cannot master, and then getting exposed by it.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11I mean, that is rather different.
0:44:11 > 0:44:16Al Fayed is a liar, and we have a detailed report saying he's a liar,
0:44:16 > 0:44:18but in this case he wasn't lying.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22Which happens sometimes. Even liars tell the truth...Neil.
0:44:22 > 0:44:24AUDIENCE: Ooh!
0:44:24 > 0:44:26LAUGHTER
0:44:26 > 0:44:29Just before we go, we have to give you your fees.
0:44:31 > 0:44:37Do you regard Have I Got News For You as a satirical programme?
0:44:37 > 0:44:42- Have I Got News For You has smuggled quite a lot of satire into...- Political satire.
0:44:42 > 0:44:45Political satire, into what looks like a mainstream quiz show.
0:44:45 > 0:44:49I think probably that's the bit I'm meant to do.
0:44:49 > 0:44:53And I think it does it extremely well.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56Ian and John, take a look at this.
0:44:56 > 0:44:59- Queues. - Yeah, people wanting to vote!
0:44:59 > 0:45:04Unmanageable turnout of 65%.
0:45:04 > 0:45:07What do they think this is? South Africa? Get out of there!
0:45:07 > 0:45:11That's the Lib Dem votes being chucked in the river.
0:45:11 > 0:45:17Well, the people have spoken, as Jo said, and they have said, "Er, umm... I'm not sure."
0:45:17 > 0:45:19Satire, is it a force for good?
0:45:19 > 0:45:20Does it have any effect?
0:45:20 > 0:45:26I have been doing this in print and on television for about
0:45:26 > 0:45:3325, 30 years, on and off in various ways, so it's quite difficult to
0:45:33 > 0:45:36look back and say that had a particular effect.
0:45:36 > 0:45:42I do still feel, even at the jaded end of the telescope,
0:45:42 > 0:45:46that the effort of attempting to point out
0:45:46 > 0:45:51what seems to me consummately mistaken, wrong or immoral
0:45:51 > 0:45:53about public life has been worth the effort.
0:45:53 > 0:46:00The reaction I get from people who have enjoyed the shows or read the material is one
0:46:00 > 0:46:06that they enjoy someone taking the debate in comic form and then presenting it back to them.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09And I think that's what satire can do best.
0:46:09 > 0:46:16And I leave you with the news that as the polls close, Gordon reveals he's not quite sure how it happened,
0:46:16 > 0:46:19but he appears to have cast his vote for David Cameron.
0:46:22 > 0:46:23Good night.
0:46:24 > 0:46:32Do you think satire is more powerful today than perhaps it was, say, 20 years ago?
0:46:32 > 0:46:36I think the power of satire is, to be honest, more or less always the same.
0:46:36 > 0:46:40The greatest satirist in Britain was Jonathan Swift,
0:46:40 > 0:46:44who managed to change one small tax in a small part of Ireland.
0:46:44 > 0:46:46That was it.
0:46:46 > 0:46:52If you're looking for concrete results, satire doesn't tend to produce them.
0:46:52 > 0:46:55You swell a consensus, you make a point, you crystallise opinion.
0:46:55 > 0:46:59That's what you can do. People say, "Why haven't you toppled the Government?"
0:46:59 > 0:47:04You say, "Well, it's a democracy and YOU'RE meant to do that, by your vote."
0:47:04 > 0:47:07What I hope to do is add to the debate.
0:47:09 > 0:47:14From Comedy Central's World News headquarters in New York, this is the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.
0:47:14 > 0:47:18In the US, for Hislop's style of political commentary to exist,
0:47:18 > 0:47:22satirists have had to move away from the major networks
0:47:22 > 0:47:27to the relatively censorship-free world of cable.
0:47:27 > 0:47:31Well, congratulations Gordon Brown, you've broken the heart of the sweetest old lady in England.
0:47:31 > 0:47:36I do apologise if I said anything that has been hurtful and I will apologise to her personally.
0:47:36 > 0:47:39Someone has just handed me the tape, let's play it.
0:47:39 > 0:47:41'You should never have put me with that woman.
0:47:41 > 0:47:43'Whose idea was that?'
0:47:43 > 0:47:46- "Somebody... Somebody has..." - CHEERING
0:47:46 > 0:47:50- "Somebody has just handed me..." - CHEERING CONTINUES
0:47:50 > 0:47:52"Somebody has just handed me the tape."
0:47:54 > 0:47:56It's like a crash-test dummy.
0:47:56 > 0:47:59Let's watch it again in Daily Show soul-o-vision.
0:47:59 > 0:48:04You can actually see the moment when his political career leaves his body.
0:48:04 > 0:48:09John Stewart first hosted the award-winning Daily Show over 11 years ago.
0:48:09 > 0:48:14Its success lies in Stewart's ability to target his wit
0:48:14 > 0:48:18towards the day's top political news stories.
0:48:18 > 0:48:22Anything that has passion, anything that has emotion, anything that is
0:48:22 > 0:48:28visceral, it's the translation of that into your performance.
0:48:28 > 0:48:35- So does satire always therefore have to be funny in order to win the audience over?- No.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37No, I think...
0:48:40 > 0:48:41You know, it's always in bounds.
0:48:41 > 0:48:44We always try and put...
0:48:44 > 0:48:47There's a certain high-minded stridency or a point that you want to make
0:48:47 > 0:48:52that has to be mitigated by... a very nice fart joke.
0:48:52 > 0:48:56There is that mix that allows it to be palatable.
0:48:56 > 0:49:02You still think you can win over detractors through sound, rational policy?
0:49:02 > 0:49:04Were you following the campaign?
0:49:04 > 0:49:07I can't trust Obama.
0:49:07 > 0:49:13I have read about him, and he is not... He's an Arab.
0:49:13 > 0:49:15I don't like the Hussein thing.
0:49:15 > 0:49:18I've had enough of Hussein.
0:49:20 > 0:49:24You think those ladies are backing down because they see you've made
0:49:24 > 0:49:27some concessions to Bush era intelligence policies?
0:49:27 > 0:49:29And as for your fervent supporters?
0:49:51 > 0:49:54She thinks you're asking her to live with you!
0:49:54 > 0:49:57And what about the effect?
0:49:57 > 0:50:01Obviously you want have an effect, most of the time.
0:50:01 > 0:50:03I don't... I don't know that...
0:50:03 > 0:50:10If its purpose was social change, we are not picking a very effective avenue.
0:50:10 > 0:50:16In some respects, the real outcome of satire is typically catharsis.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19And whether that is positive or negative, I don't know.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21And, by the way, catharsis for me.
0:50:21 > 0:50:23As far as the audience goes, I have no idea.
0:50:23 > 0:50:26- It starts with you. - It starts with me.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29The difference between a satirist
0:50:29 > 0:50:32and a demagogue is that we are observers.
0:50:32 > 0:50:34We don't have the confidence
0:50:34 > 0:50:36to take that next step.
0:50:36 > 0:50:39"Everything's wrong, follow me!"
0:50:39 > 0:50:42We just go, "Everything's wrong. What you want to do? I don't know."
0:50:44 > 0:50:50Stewart's show continues in its role as watchdog over the political process from the east coast,
0:50:50 > 0:50:55whilst over in LA, the self-styled bad boy of American satire
0:50:55 > 0:50:59is firing off his opinions to anyone who will listen.
0:51:00 > 0:51:03Barack Obama, an actual college professor
0:51:03 > 0:51:07replaced George Bush, an actual chimp.
0:51:09 > 0:51:12Commentators announced that comedians would be out of a job.
0:51:12 > 0:51:14Well, they were wrong.
0:51:14 > 0:51:16Everyone's out of a job.
0:51:16 > 0:51:19When I hear the word satire I do expect a laugh.
0:51:19 > 0:51:25It's the difference between a comedian and a humourist.
0:51:25 > 0:51:28If they say you are a humourist, I'm like, "OK,
0:51:28 > 0:51:29"this is not going to be that good."
0:51:29 > 0:51:32But hey, I guess you heard the big news today.
0:51:32 > 0:51:34The President won the Nobel Peace Prize.
0:51:34 > 0:51:37CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:51:39 > 0:51:43The Nobel committee said he won for creating a new climate in international politics,
0:51:43 > 0:51:49which sounds so much nicer than, "In your face, George Bush, you cowboy asshole!"
0:51:49 > 0:51:56No stranger to controversy, Maher's outspoken comments on 9/11 just a week after the terrorist attack
0:51:56 > 0:52:01meant that his relationship with the ABC network came to a rancorous end.
0:52:01 > 0:52:08This country is not overrun with rebels and free-thinkers, it's overrun with sheep and conformists.
0:52:08 > 0:52:13- Yes, who said that? Very wise.- A very wise man, sitting before me now.
0:52:13 > 0:52:15It's true, isn't it?
0:52:15 > 0:52:18It is true. We are very conformist,
0:52:18 > 0:52:25which has been great for me, because if you're not a conformist you have a lot to work with.
0:52:25 > 0:52:27We have a very polarised electorate now.
0:52:27 > 0:52:33And the problem is, they don't need to ever hear anything outside of their own echo chamber.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36They do not want to have their views challenged.
0:52:36 > 0:52:41There are a lot of things that people have not examined or re-examined
0:52:41 > 0:52:44or ever sat down to think about.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47And it gives me a living!
0:52:47 > 0:52:50Yes, the teabaggers who started a movement and,
0:52:50 > 0:52:55in the process, sullied the name of a perfectly good gay sex act.
0:52:55 > 0:53:00That's right, when the year started, "teabagging" was a phrase that referred to
0:53:00 > 0:53:03dangling one's testicles in someone else's face
0:53:03 > 0:53:08and they managed to turn it into something gross and ridiculous.
0:53:12 > 0:53:16So, from the comfort of cable TV, Bill Maher is able to vent
0:53:16 > 0:53:19his opinions with relatively little interference,
0:53:19 > 0:53:25leaving him to push the boundaries of taste and decency in the name of satire.
0:53:25 > 0:53:30But taking political satire as a whole, are there any limits?
0:53:30 > 0:53:32Can it ever go too far?
0:53:32 > 0:53:38For public figures who want to be in the eye of the storm,
0:53:38 > 0:53:40you can't go too far, really.
0:53:40 > 0:53:46But for me, I felt that if I'm really actually hurting the President's feelings
0:53:46 > 0:53:49a little bit, maybe I am going a little too far, you know?
0:53:49 > 0:53:54I don't feel like I want to hurt the guy, I just don't want him to ever be President.
0:53:54 > 0:53:56I don't think there should be limits.
0:53:56 > 0:54:03I think as long as you can get it funny enough, you can get near anything, I think.
0:54:03 > 0:54:09I think the point of satire is to try and keep pointing out where
0:54:09 > 0:54:14what we in England have always called "vice, folly and humbug" still exist.
0:54:14 > 0:54:17Where you draw that line is up to you.
0:54:17 > 0:54:20I don't say, "I would never do that, I would never do that." It's events.
0:54:20 > 0:54:23It depends what those people do, or it depends what happens.
0:54:23 > 0:54:27The whole point of living here is you are allowed to say these things
0:54:27 > 0:54:31and you're not shot or incarcerated, and we can take it on the chin.
0:54:31 > 0:54:33That's what a free society means.
0:54:33 > 0:54:39So even if a show like Spitting Image achieved absolutely no political changes at all,
0:54:39 > 0:54:45which I think is probably right, at least it aired the subject, and I think that's a very good thing.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48For me, it can never go too far, but I'm a comedian.
0:54:48 > 0:54:52WC Fields once said, to make a regular person laugh
0:54:52 > 0:54:58all you have to do is dress up as an old lady and have the old lady fall down a manhole cover,
0:54:58 > 0:55:01but to make a comedian laugh, it has to really be an old lady.
0:55:04 > 0:55:08Unless you go too far, you don't know where that line is. I'd much rather go too far
0:55:08 > 0:55:13and take my lumps for it, than not go far enough and have people call me soft.
0:55:13 > 0:55:15It's a very personal...
0:55:15 > 0:55:17People say, "Where is the line?"
0:55:17 > 0:55:20- I can't draw the line for other people.- No, no.
0:55:20 > 0:55:22Because it's different for whatever...
0:55:22 > 0:55:24I can't tell you how many times
0:55:24 > 0:55:28I will hear from somebody, "We love your show, we watch it all time,
0:55:28 > 0:55:33"until you made a joke about the thing I care about, and now you've gone too far.
0:55:33 > 0:55:35"And I will never watch again."
0:55:35 > 0:55:37So we try and use,
0:55:37 > 0:55:41as we do with everything, our own internal barometer of human decency,
0:55:41 > 0:55:46and we try not to overstep that, and that's all we can do.
0:55:46 > 0:55:53The greatest danger now is that one of the big issues of our time is religion, and particularly Islam.
0:55:53 > 0:55:57And you're in a situation now which I've never been in before,
0:55:57 > 0:56:03which is, when you are writing a sketch about Islam, for example,
0:56:03 > 0:56:05but I'm writing a line, and I think,
0:56:05 > 0:56:10"If this goes down badly, I am writing my own death warrant here."
0:56:10 > 0:56:15Because there are people who say, "Not only do I not think that's funny, but I'm going to kill you."
0:56:15 > 0:56:18And that's chilling. If you're a Danish cartoonist
0:56:18 > 0:56:23and you work within a Western tradition, if you like, the tradition we have
0:56:23 > 0:56:26in this country that you don't take things too seriously,
0:56:26 > 0:56:29and suddenly you are confronted with a group of people
0:56:29 > 0:56:37who are fundamentalist and extreme, and they say, "We are going to kill you for what you've written,
0:56:37 > 0:56:40"for what you have drawn," you're in a very chilling reality.
0:56:40 > 0:56:42And where does satire go there?
0:56:42 > 0:56:43I think we like to be brave.
0:56:43 > 0:56:46- But how brave?- But not foolish.
0:56:46 > 0:56:47But not foolish.
0:56:47 > 0:56:54So is TV satire alive and well and playing an active role in the democratic process?
0:56:54 > 0:56:58Whatever the challenges facing it, I feel many of our satirists
0:56:58 > 0:57:02have been rather modest about its impact so far.
0:57:02 > 0:57:06But then, they would be, wouldn't they?
0:57:06 > 0:57:13Far more fun to wield nation-changing power when pretending to people that you haven't actually got any!
0:57:13 > 0:57:20I'll never forget one Salvation Army major who came up to us after one show and said,
0:57:20 > 0:57:25"Congratulations, you've done what the Salvation Army could never do,
0:57:25 > 0:57:30"you've emptied all the pubs on a Saturday night."
0:57:30 > 0:57:32Goodbye for now.
0:57:32 > 0:57:36# I wanna go back
0:57:36 > 0:57:40# To Mississippi
0:57:40 > 0:57:46# Where the sandy blossoms kiss the evening breeze
0:57:47 > 0:57:51# Where the Mississippi mud
0:57:51 > 0:57:54# Kind of mingles with the blood
0:57:54 > 0:58:01# Of the niggers who are hanging from the branches of the trees
0:58:01 > 0:58:07# So carry me home to Mississippi
0:58:08 > 0:58:12# That all-American
0:58:13 > 0:58:16# All-American
0:58:17 > 0:58:21# All-American state. #
0:58:22 > 0:58:24Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:58:24 > 0:58:26E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk