0:00:02 > 0:00:08This programme contains some strong language.
0:00:08 > 0:00:09What is the Newsnight Scotland... Is it "Dum, dum, dum"?
0:00:09 > 0:00:10Dum, dum, dum.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15What do you think? Better together?
0:00:17 > 0:00:19OK, here we go.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36It's now time for me to introduce the man you've all come to see,
0:00:36 > 0:00:38one of the finest comedians.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42Please give a huge Edinburgh welcome to the fantastic Rory Bremner!
0:00:42 > 0:00:45APPLAUSE
0:00:45 > 0:00:49Thank you so much, thank you. OK.
0:00:59 > 0:01:03That was me, Rory Bremner, about to go on stage to do my
0:01:03 > 0:01:05first-ever stand-up show about Scottish politics.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11I was apprehensive.
0:01:11 > 0:01:13Only eight weeks earlier, I knew next to nothing
0:01:13 > 0:01:17about Scotland's parliament, the politicians, or their policies.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23So why do a show about it? Well, somebody has to.
0:01:23 > 0:01:26And having moved back home to Scotland and become fascinated
0:01:26 > 0:01:29by the debate on independence, it's time I took it seriously
0:01:29 > 0:01:32and did some comedy about it.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35And where better to start than my home town, Edinburgh?
0:01:36 > 0:01:39They used to talk of Edinburgh as the Athens of the North.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43It's even got its own acropolis on Calton Hill over there.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47But if you're talking about a big, European capital,
0:01:47 > 0:01:50Athens isn't a great role model right now.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52So what would Edinburgh be? Would it be an Athens?
0:01:52 > 0:01:54Would it be a Berlin?
0:01:54 > 0:01:56See, I know nothing about Scottish politics.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59I don't know, I don't know how their politicians work,
0:01:59 > 0:02:01I don't know what makes them tick.
0:02:01 > 0:02:05I don't know what makes them go cuckoo every 15 minutes.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07But I'd love to find out.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11OK, what's my story? Brought up in Scotland, tick. Scottish dad, tick.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14Like haggis, whisky, Irn Bru...
0:02:14 > 0:02:16Well, two out of three's not bad.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19And being a great believer in Scottish traditions,
0:02:19 > 0:02:22I followed the example of thousands of my fellow countrymen
0:02:22 > 0:02:24and moved to England.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27Spending the next 300-odd years reminding the English
0:02:27 > 0:02:31that we invented the telephone, the fax machine, the flush toilet,
0:02:31 > 0:02:32gin and tonic.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35It's true, it's on Wikipedia.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37And what did we get back?
0:02:37 > 0:02:41Berwick Rangers and the last 20 minutes of Newsnight.
0:02:41 > 0:02:43LAUGHTER
0:02:47 > 0:02:51But before I step on stage, jokes must be written, so to help me make
0:02:51 > 0:02:55some sense and nonsense of Scottish politics, I've called in the troops.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58That's what history is for, in a political context.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01You have to have an extremely selective knowledge of about
0:03:01 > 0:03:04three facts, and then that's basically...
0:03:04 > 0:03:06You can just base your whole world view on it.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08Fortunately, in Scotland, most of those three facts
0:03:08 > 0:03:09end up on tea towels.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Five writers and one producer round a table for a day,
0:03:14 > 0:03:18trying to be funny with only tea and biscuits as sustenance.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21This is a writers' room.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23I've worked with Andy Zaltzman on my previous shows,
0:03:23 > 0:03:27and he's one of the best political satirists working in British comedy.
0:03:27 > 0:03:30Steven Dick is a comedy writer very much in demand
0:03:30 > 0:03:33from the biggest comedians in the UK.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Sanjeev Kohli is a writer and actor,
0:03:35 > 0:03:38best known for playing Navid in Still Game,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41and Julia Sutherland is a writer, sketch performer,
0:03:41 > 0:03:43and stand-up comedian.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46It's like being in that marriage where you're miserable
0:03:46 > 0:03:49but you're kind of happy being miserable cos you can moan,
0:03:49 > 0:03:51you've got something to moan about every single day,
0:03:51 > 0:03:54and you've got somebody else to blame for your misery.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57- That's, that's...- You came out with that one very quickly!
0:03:57 > 0:03:59LAUGHTER
0:03:59 > 0:04:01And then to marshal us all into some sort of shape
0:04:01 > 0:04:04is Noddy Davidson, my producer.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07You live up here, does it affect you
0:04:07 > 0:04:09and do you write stuff about it as well?
0:04:09 > 0:04:12I tend not to, to be honest, for the stand-up, just because
0:04:12 > 0:04:15there doesn't seem to be much of an appetite for it.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17I don't know whether it's because of, because people
0:04:17 > 0:04:21just don't know, erm, you know, who the characters are.
0:04:21 > 0:04:25The only one they know is Salmond, who, I think, he's exploited that,
0:04:25 > 0:04:27because he does, he does have sort of stage presence
0:04:27 > 0:04:29and they don't really know who the other players are,
0:04:29 > 0:04:31and they're not that bothered, and they see them
0:04:31 > 0:04:34as kind of jumped-up councillors who've all got pork chops
0:04:34 > 0:04:36in their pocket, you know that, that kind of...
0:04:36 > 0:04:38that kind of level of government rather than, you know,
0:04:38 > 0:04:41they would still look to Westminster I think for the real characters.
0:04:41 > 0:04:46Yeah, it has to be so on the surface, the jokes,
0:04:46 > 0:04:47because you have to...
0:04:47 > 0:04:50- If you went any deeper, you'd have to explain so much.- Yeah.
0:04:50 > 0:04:52Because, I think... Which is fine.
0:04:52 > 0:04:54You're saying your audience is, like,
0:04:54 > 0:04:57background reading those before they start? THEY LAUGH
0:04:57 > 0:05:01Yes, there you go. 45 pages...
0:05:01 > 0:05:04But to get into some of the details that we'll probably want to talk
0:05:04 > 0:05:09about in our show, is it's tricky to do on a stand-up set.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12I think there is that link in the process, though.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16I mean, I think it runs through in sort of British, erm, television.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18People saw their politicians and they began...
0:05:18 > 0:05:21They recognise that, even through a comedy show, it kind of...
0:05:21 > 0:05:24When there's nothing like that, there's, then there's only
0:05:24 > 0:05:29the politically-minded get to see the politicians and watch them.
0:05:29 > 0:05:31And I think politics is far too dangerous to be left just to
0:05:31 > 0:05:34the politically-minded.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36Scotland needs comedy more than ever.
0:05:36 > 0:05:37With the independence debate,
0:05:37 > 0:05:42finally, after 300 years, reaching room temperature...
0:05:42 > 0:05:45And just imagine what William Wallace would be saying.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47I don't know what William Wallace sounded like.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50I imagine a bit like Gavin Hastings, you know.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52- AS HASTINGS:- This is a tremendous opportunity
0:05:52 > 0:05:57for the people of Scotland. if there's ever anything
0:05:57 > 0:06:00that was guaranteed to make your heart beat faster.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02LAUGHTER
0:06:02 > 0:06:06- SLOWLY AND CALMLY:- You can probably hear the excitement in ma voice.
0:06:06 > 0:06:11I've never felt quite so excited in my entire life.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14- AS SELF:- So tonight, it's very unlikely that you'll get any answers tonight,
0:06:14 > 0:06:17but the idea is, at least we'll raise a few of the questions.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20Cos the way I see it, there are some things in life
0:06:20 > 0:06:22that are too important to be taken seriously, right?
0:06:22 > 0:06:24And this is one of them.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28So it's time, it's time to put the L in satire.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32I don't really understand that joke.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34Could somebody just explain it to me?
0:06:37 > 0:06:41It's a big step, or a big flight of steps, from the writers' room
0:06:41 > 0:06:44to the stage, and my search for material starts,
0:06:44 > 0:06:48just as the new parliament did, at the Assembly Halls on the Mound.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50There's a statue of John Knox outside.
0:06:50 > 0:06:54He's long dead, but I'm here to meet another firebrand orator.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58'Dennis Canavan made his name as a Labour back-bencher at Westminster.'
0:06:58 > 0:07:00Stand up, stand up and fight!
0:07:00 > 0:07:04'But he returned north with the dawn of devolution.'
0:07:04 > 0:07:06So, Dennis, we're here
0:07:06 > 0:07:08in the Assembly Hall of the Church of Scotland, is that right?
0:07:08 > 0:07:11But also, this was the start of the Scottish Parliament, am I right?
0:07:11 > 0:07:15Indeed, this is where the parliament first met.
0:07:15 > 0:07:16And you were an MSP that day
0:07:16 > 0:07:19when it started as the first Scottish Parliament, yeah?
0:07:19 > 0:07:25Yes, I was the only independent member elected in 1999.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28There's so much history about this, actually this particular room
0:07:28 > 0:07:32because you can see just there was where David Steel first sat
0:07:32 > 0:07:34as the First Presiding Officer.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36Round about there was where Henry McLeish
0:07:36 > 0:07:40was the First Minister, and if you look in the loos back there,
0:07:40 > 0:07:43you can still see, scribbled as writing on the wall, saying
0:07:43 > 0:07:46"If you want a good time, call this number."
0:07:46 > 0:07:47Don't ring it,
0:07:47 > 0:07:51you just get put through to Tommy Sheridan's answerphone.
0:07:51 > 0:07:53That's satire, ladies and gentlemen.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56It bothers me that I know so little about Scottish politics,
0:07:56 > 0:07:58but I wonder, do the Scots themselves,
0:07:58 > 0:08:00do they know that much about Scottish politics?
0:08:00 > 0:08:01Are they engaged?
0:08:01 > 0:08:05I don't think the electorate are as engaged as they used to be,
0:08:05 > 0:08:10and I think that that shows in the turnout at general elections.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13Do you think it's like with New Labour, that, you know that,
0:08:13 > 0:08:16that small public meetings and constituency surgeries,
0:08:16 > 0:08:21and the kind of real grassroots politics was less important
0:08:21 > 0:08:24to these guys, cos they were busy talking to the head of BP
0:08:24 > 0:08:25or the head of the banks or this or that,
0:08:25 > 0:08:27because that's how they saw politics?
0:08:27 > 0:08:30Do you think that's part of that disconnect?
0:08:30 > 0:08:34Yes, I think that, that Blair and some of his acolytes
0:08:34 > 0:08:37were speaking to the wrong people.
0:08:37 > 0:08:39Did you come across Mandelson a few times?
0:08:39 > 0:08:41What did he make of you?
0:08:41 > 0:08:42I don't know what Mandelson...
0:08:42 > 0:08:45- AS MANDELSON:- I'm a very nice chap, Dennis, I'm a very...
0:08:45 > 0:08:48No, you and I, as you know, I'm a Labour man through and through
0:08:48 > 0:08:50and I'm Labour in my heart.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53It's just I, just don't seem to be able to find it at the moment,
0:08:53 > 0:08:54but you're a very, very good man.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57- AS SELF:- Did you ever meet him? Chalk and cheese?- Oh, yes!
0:08:57 > 0:08:59- Chalk and cheese comes to mind. - I met him.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01I don't know what Mandelson thought of me,
0:09:01 > 0:09:03but I didn't think very highly of him!
0:09:03 > 0:09:07The SNP have been in the majority in Scotland for how long now?
0:09:07 > 0:09:11Just since the last elections to the Scottish Parliament.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13And he got a remarkable vote, didn't he, Alex Salmond? Why?
0:09:13 > 0:09:15Why did he get such a big vote?
0:09:15 > 0:09:19Well, Salmond is a very strong character.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23He's probably the most astute political leader
0:09:23 > 0:09:26of his generation in Scotland.
0:09:26 > 0:09:28Not a big generation, it has to be said, though!
0:09:28 > 0:09:31I mean, I don't know who these people are.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33I mean, Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon,
0:09:33 > 0:09:35are there any other fish in the sea?
0:09:37 > 0:09:40I don't know - yet. Let's go and find the people who vote for
0:09:40 > 0:09:42and pay for these politicians.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45They're bound to know. Who's that?
0:09:45 > 0:09:47Oh, it's erm...
0:09:48 > 0:09:50- Alex Salmond, isn't it?- Yeah.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52Who are these people? Who are they?
0:09:52 > 0:09:54Er, that's the head of the Tories in Scotland.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56Well done, whose name is?
0:09:56 > 0:09:58Er...
0:09:58 > 0:10:00- He looks like a schoolboy. Who's that?- I don't know that one.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03Who's that? Who's that?
0:10:03 > 0:10:06- Who's that? - Alistair Darling.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08I knew his face.
0:10:08 > 0:10:09Can I just... can I just get this right,
0:10:09 > 0:10:11you're from San Antonio, Texas.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14- Who's that?- Alex Salmond. - What do you think of him?
0:10:14 > 0:10:17Oh, I'm no comment.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19- Who's that?- Jackie Baillie.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21Jackie who?
0:10:21 > 0:10:24Why is it that we don't know who these politicians are?
0:10:24 > 0:10:28Well I know that's Alex, he's the King.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30Very good. Absolutely right. Do you like him?
0:10:30 > 0:10:33Not particularly.
0:10:33 > 0:10:34I'm really bad with names.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37I recognise faces but I don't recognise...
0:10:37 > 0:10:39- Do you know who that is? - No, but I don't do politics.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42- You don't do politics? - I don't know these things.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46- You're not Rory Bremner, are you? - Yeah!
0:10:46 > 0:10:49I asked the people in the street and it turns out
0:10:49 > 0:10:50they didn't have a clue either.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53You know, show them a picture of Roseanna Cunningham
0:10:53 > 0:10:56or Iain Gray and they just look blank.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59Johann Lamont, they go, "No, what is this? Crimewatch?"
0:10:59 > 0:11:01LAUGHTER
0:11:01 > 0:11:04We showed one woman a picture of Willie Rennie, you know,
0:11:04 > 0:11:06the Lib Dem leader.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08She'd never seen him before.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11Turns out she'd been married to him for 15 years.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13Although to be fair, he is one of the Lib Dems,
0:11:13 > 0:11:16so, you know, they only meet up occasionally to exchange gifts,
0:11:16 > 0:11:20pleasantries and points on their driving licence.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23But does anyone actually know what Willie Rennie sounds like?
0:11:23 > 0:11:26You know, for all I know, he sounds like Nelson Mandela.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29- AS MANDELA:- People of Kelty.
0:11:29 > 0:11:31LAUGHTER
0:11:31 > 0:11:38We'll negotiate to sort out the weekly bin collection.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40LAUGHTER
0:11:43 > 0:11:46But surely someone somewhere knows who these politicians are,
0:11:46 > 0:11:48and what's funny about them?
0:11:49 > 0:11:53The British Empire don't get rid of colonies that easily, do they?
0:11:53 > 0:11:55America had to fight a war of independence,
0:11:55 > 0:11:58Ireland had to fight a war of independence,
0:11:58 > 0:12:00and Indian independence mainly brought about
0:12:00 > 0:12:05cos Gandhi went on hunger strike to bring down the British Raj.
0:12:05 > 0:12:06Christ almighty,
0:12:06 > 0:12:10you can't see Alex Salmond going on a hunger strike, eh?!
0:12:10 > 0:12:14Paul Sneddon is one of Scotland's sharpest stand-up comedians,
0:12:14 > 0:12:18one of only a few making jokes at the expense and the expenses
0:12:18 > 0:12:23of Scotland's politicians, and he has a familiar tale to tell.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26About ten years ago, I went on a similar journey to you.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28I lived down south and came back here round about the time
0:12:28 > 0:12:32the Parliament opened, and I thought, wow, the Parliament's opening,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35we're going to get a huge new load of political people we can actually,
0:12:35 > 0:12:38you know, we can satirise, we can take the piss out of.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42And then found out that it was pointless, cos most people
0:12:42 > 0:12:45in the audience would think, "Who the hell are you talking about?"
0:12:45 > 0:12:50But I have noticed a change in, I guess, over the last
0:12:50 > 0:12:54six months to a year, now we're aware of the referendum coming.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57People are switched-on to the subject,
0:12:57 > 0:13:00whether they don't care, they're still engaged.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03So they know it's coming, and so they are prepared
0:13:03 > 0:13:05to laugh about the whole thing.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08There's a thing down south that people only really know
0:13:08 > 0:13:11who the politicians are when they get into a scandal, like David Laws.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13"Oh, that's the gay one with the expenses."
0:13:13 > 0:13:14Andrew Mitchell, he's plebgate.
0:13:14 > 0:13:16Is it the same up here, you've had your scandals?
0:13:16 > 0:13:17We've had scandals,
0:13:17 > 0:13:21but the scandals up here were of such a ridiculously small nature.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23They were almost not worth writing about.
0:13:23 > 0:13:24I mean, look at the States.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27The States have good scandals, don't they, and always have had, you know,
0:13:27 > 0:13:30from Watergate, through to all the stuff that Clinton
0:13:30 > 0:13:32had to put up with.
0:13:32 > 0:13:33So talk me through the gates here?
0:13:33 > 0:13:35Well, we had Piegate.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38- Piegate?!- Yes, I know, unbelievable.
0:13:38 > 0:13:39We had Piegate.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42Frank McAveety, who was the Sport & Culture Secretary, I believe,
0:13:42 > 0:13:46didn't attend parliamentary questions because he was
0:13:46 > 0:13:50in the canteen eating a pie, but claimed he was, quote,
0:13:50 > 0:13:53"dealing with some administration".
0:13:53 > 0:13:54To be honest, you know,
0:13:54 > 0:13:58there aren't many MSPs who'd set the world on fire.
0:13:58 > 0:14:02There's one who set the curtains on fire, but he was pissed,
0:14:02 > 0:14:03he got 16 months in jail.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06Do you remember Mike Watson? Do you remember that?
0:14:06 > 0:14:07Yeah. He can't.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11So, who should I be doing then?
0:14:11 > 0:14:12Well, obviously Alex.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14Yeah, that's the first one.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18I don't know what level of visuals you're going for here,
0:14:18 > 0:14:21- but you might be quite a long time in...- In make-up.
0:14:21 > 0:14:22Getting the prosthetics.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25How long does it take him every morning, do you think?
0:14:25 > 0:14:26To look like that?
0:14:26 > 0:14:29Actually, what you could do is just wear a panda suit.
0:14:29 > 0:14:31He's looking increasingly more and more like the pandas
0:14:31 > 0:14:32in Edinburgh Zoo.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35In fact, one of them hasn't been seen for a few weeks,
0:14:35 > 0:14:38so we reckon he might have eaten it.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40I might draw the line at a panda suit,
0:14:40 > 0:14:42but I will need to start with the First Minister's voice.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45And so, I utilised a technique developed through
0:14:45 > 0:14:46decades of experience.
0:14:46 > 0:14:48Talking to myself while driving.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53We need to have a listen to what this guy sounds like.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56- SALMOND SPEECH TAPE PLAYS: - '..our party's history and our country's recent history,
0:14:56 > 0:14:59'to secure a better future for our families.'
0:14:59 > 0:15:01Secure, secure...to skewer a better future?
0:15:01 > 0:15:04'..a future that starts with a Yes vote.'
0:15:04 > 0:15:05A nation that starts...
0:15:05 > 0:15:07'This week, I met with the Prime Minister to sign
0:15:07 > 0:15:09'the Edinburgh agreement.'
0:15:09 > 0:15:13- Wooo.- 'An agreement which gives our own Parliament unchallenged legal
0:15:13 > 0:15:17'authority to hold a referendum, which agrees the process,
0:15:17 > 0:15:18'respects the outcome...'
0:15:18 > 0:15:21He's got that kind of back of the throat thing.
0:15:21 > 0:15:23"Agrees the process, respects the outcome."
0:15:25 > 0:15:27It's game on for Scotland.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30It's game on for Scotland, for Scotland.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32APPLAUSE ON TAPE
0:15:32 > 0:15:33Oh, big applause.
0:15:35 > 0:15:40- AS SALMOND:- And that's why I say to you today, with my wee back-of-the-throat...
0:15:40 > 0:15:43'That referendum creates a once-in-a...
0:15:43 > 0:15:46"'Crates' a once-in-a-generation..."
0:15:46 > 0:15:49'..and, conference, that must include the new generation.'
0:15:49 > 0:15:51- That's two generations. - '16 and 17-year-olds.'
0:15:51 > 0:15:55- AS SALMOND:- It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity for two generations.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57It's a once-in-two-generations opportunity
0:15:57 > 0:16:00and I say to you, delegates... Delegates?
0:16:00 > 0:16:04- AS SELF:- What delegates? I've got a setting on my washing machine for that.
0:16:04 > 0:16:05- AS SALMOND:- Delicates.
0:16:05 > 0:16:10And so I say to you, mixed wash,
0:16:10 > 0:16:15I say to you, the whites heavy soil of our future,
0:16:15 > 0:16:18we're heading out of the spin cycle of devolution
0:16:18 > 0:16:21towards the rinse of independence.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27- AS SELF:- It's impossible to exaggerate the dominance of Alex Salmond
0:16:27 > 0:16:30in Scottish politics, though you can't blame him for trying.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32But if Salmond's the biggest fish in the pond,
0:16:32 > 0:16:36that pond owes its existence to another powerful politician.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39Charismatic, delusions of grandeur, kept me in work for years,
0:16:39 > 0:16:40ring any bells?
0:16:40 > 0:16:43Tony Blair's relationship with the Scottish Parliament
0:16:43 > 0:16:45was always a bit ambiguous.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48- AS BLAIR:- You know, oh, you know, it was, er, the devolution
0:16:48 > 0:16:52of the Scottish Parliament, well, it was the least I could do.
0:16:52 > 0:16:53Literally.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56You know, believe me, I checked.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00I mean, you know, devolution, well, that's your lot, eh?
0:17:00 > 0:17:04I mean, come on, the next thing you'll be wanting evolution.
0:17:04 > 0:17:06- AS SELF:- In the words of George Robertson it was meant to
0:17:06 > 0:17:11"kill nationalism stone dead", which clearly worked.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13But like everything else with New Labour,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16it lasted for about ten years, and now everything's focused
0:17:16 > 0:17:17on the vote for independence.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20And the idea is that the people of Scotland should elect
0:17:20 > 0:17:25a government that's voted for by the majority of the population,
0:17:25 > 0:17:28and if that works, they'll try it at Westminster as well.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30LAUGHTER
0:17:32 > 0:17:35Time to pay a visit to the beating heart of Scottish politics,
0:17:35 > 0:17:38the Parliament at Holyrood, an impressive, if controversial
0:17:38 > 0:17:43new building, it feels very European - by which I mean, it's modern,
0:17:43 > 0:17:48different, exciting and massively over-budget.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52By the time it opened, it had already got its own public enquiry
0:17:52 > 0:17:55and never got to see Scotland's first two First Ministers.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58When something is new, we'll slag it off, slag it off,
0:17:58 > 0:18:01and there'll come a tipping point where it's been there
0:18:01 > 0:18:03for long enough, we'll be very proud of it,
0:18:03 > 0:18:05and don't you dare slag it off, and that's our thing.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08I think the parliament might be getting into that territory
0:18:08 > 0:18:10now where we're getting quite proud of that building, you know.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13But 400 million or something, and it was originally going to be
0:18:13 > 0:18:16- 60 or something?- It was three years late, three years!
0:18:17 > 0:18:20You know, I thought my plumber was bad but... Yes.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25If I'm to understand Scottish politics,
0:18:25 > 0:18:28I need to get a feel for how this parliament operates.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34Journalist-turned-prominent MSP Joan McAlpine
0:18:34 > 0:18:37was kind enough to show me round the building, allowing me
0:18:37 > 0:18:41to experience for myself the red hot core of government.
0:18:43 > 0:18:48Well, at least look at it through a pane of satire-proof glass.
0:18:48 > 0:18:50So this is the entrance to the Debating Chamber
0:18:50 > 0:18:52- of the Scottish Parliament. - Ah, right.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55- So you see it's very different from Westminster.- Wow!
0:18:55 > 0:18:58- It's very light. - I see. It's really impressive.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00I've not seen it before, except on television,
0:19:00 > 0:19:04and it's much lighter and larger than you expect.
0:19:04 > 0:19:06It's different from Westminster.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09It's very different, and the idea was that, you know,
0:19:09 > 0:19:12he wanted a banana-shaped parliament as opposed to a...
0:19:12 > 0:19:14So you'll be a banana republic?
0:19:16 > 0:19:18The idea was that you wouldn't be adversarial,
0:19:18 > 0:19:21and that we'd all love one another and agree with one another,
0:19:21 > 0:19:25and eh, in the Scottish Parliament, which happens sometimes.
0:19:25 > 0:19:28- Yeah.- Sometimes we agree on things.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30The only difference in the Scottish Parliament is they have to
0:19:30 > 0:19:33press a button before they start shouting at each other.
0:19:33 > 0:19:35They have buttons and it sort of puts a little light up
0:19:35 > 0:19:38and then the speaker gets to decide who gets to speak.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40That'll be better.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42Yes, so we'll go, this number here, it's you over there,
0:19:42 > 0:19:44press the button, and it turns their microphone on.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47- It's like being in a radio studio. - "We've got Alex on line one."
0:19:47 > 0:19:49LAUGHTER
0:19:49 > 0:19:51"Alex, make your point, make it quick."
0:19:52 > 0:19:55'Along a beautifully expensive polished floor reflecting
0:19:55 > 0:19:57'some delightfully expensive timberwork,
0:19:57 > 0:19:59'I found an old friend, Margo MacDonald.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02'She's a brave and popular character, an independent MSP
0:20:02 > 0:20:05'and an independent spirit.'
0:20:05 > 0:20:08People expect me, because I do stand-up, because I've done
0:20:08 > 0:20:09satire, as soon as I do a show in Scotland
0:20:09 > 0:20:13they go "oh, what will you say about Scottish Parliament?" I don't know what to say cos
0:20:13 > 0:20:15I don't know and, you know, that'll...
0:20:15 > 0:20:17You'll fit in extremely well here then.
0:20:17 > 0:20:19HE LAUGHS
0:20:19 > 0:20:22So, I mean, here we are in, in the parliament building,
0:20:22 > 0:20:24and I've never been here before and, you know,
0:20:24 > 0:20:28on the face of it, it seems a very impressive building.
0:20:28 > 0:20:29There are bits in it
0:20:29 > 0:20:31that are absolutely lovely,
0:20:31 > 0:20:33but don't get caught in the
0:20:33 > 0:20:36dining room between November and March,
0:20:36 > 0:20:40unless you have a fur coat to wear at table.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43I mean, you were obviously one of the critics.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45- Has it grown on you as a building?- Yes. Yes.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48"You get used to everything except hanging,"
0:20:48 > 0:20:50my mother used to say.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52THEY LAUGH
0:20:52 > 0:20:57But no, no, I have got used to it and there's parts of it I like,
0:20:57 > 0:21:00but it's not really a very functional building.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07It seems a civilised place to be because there's, you know,
0:21:07 > 0:21:10lots of light, lots of good spaces you could meet.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13The offices seemed... I mean, there were sort of quite quirky
0:21:13 > 0:21:15things to the design, and I love the way Margo MacDonald said
0:21:15 > 0:21:18"I said, 'How many people are you expecting to get here as visitors?'
0:21:18 > 0:21:22"and they said 'Oh, about 700,000 a year.'
0:21:22 > 0:21:24"I said 'There's nae toilets,'" and she said,
0:21:24 > 0:21:27"You could see the blood drain from this guy's face and he went away,
0:21:27 > 0:21:30"came back, and said, 'Well, we're part of a tourist hub,' he said,
0:21:30 > 0:21:33"'so they'll go and see the Dynamic Earth,
0:21:33 > 0:21:35"'then they'll come to the Parliament.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37"'and then they'll go to Holyrood Palace.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39"'and they've toilets there.'"
0:21:39 > 0:21:40THEY LAUGH
0:21:40 > 0:21:42But Scottish politicians more have heard of tend
0:21:42 > 0:21:44to be the ones who joined the circus,
0:21:44 > 0:21:45down at Westminster.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48Labour ones, like Gordon Brown and John Smith
0:21:48 > 0:21:50and Alistair Darling and John Reid.
0:21:50 > 0:21:55Lib Dems like David Steel and Charles Kennedy and Ming Campbell,
0:21:55 > 0:21:57and Tory ones like...
0:21:57 > 0:21:58LAUGHTER
0:22:00 > 0:22:02Hang on. Erm...
0:22:02 > 0:22:04Hang on. Name... Name a Scottish Tory.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06- Tony Blair.- Tony Blair.
0:22:06 > 0:22:07LAUGHTER
0:22:07 > 0:22:10No, we know he's Tory, he's just not Scottish.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13But the rest are Scottish through and through,
0:22:13 > 0:22:15none more than Gordon Brown.
0:22:15 > 0:22:20- AS BROWN:- Now let me... Let me make it...
0:22:20 > 0:22:22make it quite clear.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25My father...my father was a... was a Kirk minister
0:22:25 > 0:22:26and my mother
0:22:26 > 0:22:28played for Raith Rovers.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31LAUGHTER
0:22:31 > 0:22:33- AS SELF:- But they all headed South.
0:22:33 > 0:22:38For decades, two of our biggest exports to England were whisky
0:22:38 > 0:22:39and Scottish MPs.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42Or in the case of Charles Kennedy, both.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45- AS KENNEDY:- No, hang on just a wee moment just there,
0:22:45 > 0:22:49because, I think, to be fair, to be fair, a lot of Lib Dems
0:22:49 > 0:22:52would prefer me pissed to Nick Clegg sober,
0:22:52 > 0:22:53let me just make that clear.
0:22:53 > 0:22:57APPLAUSE DROWNS OUT SPEECH
0:22:59 > 0:23:02There's no doubt about that, you know.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04- AS SELF:- But why do they all head South?
0:23:04 > 0:23:09Well, lots of reasons, you know, bigger stage, more expenses,
0:23:09 > 0:23:12chance to become a political heavyweight,
0:23:12 > 0:23:13or, in the case of Eric Joyce,
0:23:13 > 0:23:16a political light-heavyweight.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19And then there's Dumfries and Galloway.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22Dumfries, only Tory MP in Scotland,
0:23:22 > 0:23:24and Galloway.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27George Galloway, who stood for election
0:23:27 > 0:23:30for the Scottish Parliament, but remains a staunch unionist.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32- AS GALLOWAY:- Let me say to you...
0:23:32 > 0:23:34LAUGHTER
0:23:34 > 0:23:38I am in favour of retaining the union.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40Tell your friends, tell your friends.
0:23:40 > 0:23:44Let me adumbrate my reasons.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48As you know, Scotland has a great deal of oil.
0:23:48 > 0:23:51We are an oil-rich nation,
0:23:51 > 0:23:54and where there is a small nation with
0:23:54 > 0:23:58a great deal of oil, I am never in favour of regime change.
0:23:58 > 0:24:00LAUGHTER
0:24:00 > 0:24:02David Cameron, George Osborne,
0:24:02 > 0:24:04Danny Alexander, Alistair Darling,
0:24:04 > 0:24:07I dip my whiskers in your cream.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09LAUGHTER
0:24:09 > 0:24:11'While down South, targets for satire were provided by any
0:24:11 > 0:24:14'number of senior politicians -
0:24:14 > 0:24:15'and George Galloway -
0:24:15 > 0:24:18'back in Scotland, they're harder to find.
0:24:18 > 0:24:20'I need to get a handle on the main men in Holyrood.
0:24:20 > 0:24:24'Well, for a start, that should be main women.'
0:24:24 > 0:24:26Ruth Davidson!
0:24:26 > 0:24:29There was a £176m that came to Scotland
0:24:29 > 0:24:32yesterday as a result of that budget.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34Johann Lamont.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36I'll just wait until you're quiet and then I'll say it
0:24:36 > 0:24:37so you can hear it.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42It worked when I was in the classroom,
0:24:42 > 0:24:45there's no reason why it shouldn't work now.
0:24:45 > 0:24:47LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:24:48 > 0:24:52'Journalists are always a good source of material.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54'They can be refreshingly candid about the politicians
0:24:54 > 0:24:56'they work alongside.
0:24:56 > 0:24:58'And they don't come any more candid than
0:24:58 > 0:25:01'Alan Cochrane, the Scottish Editor of the Daily Telegraph,
0:25:01 > 0:25:05'who writes every day about the goings-on at Holyrood.'
0:25:06 > 0:25:09Well, I do commentaries. When I first started doing it,
0:25:09 > 0:25:12they thought of putting the word sketch on it, but I don't really
0:25:12 > 0:25:15do colour, I do insults most days,
0:25:15 > 0:25:16and mostly about Nationalists.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18You'd be at home in Scottish politics then,
0:25:18 > 0:25:20cos there's a lot of insults flying around.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23It's a very bitter arena.
0:25:23 > 0:25:24I mean, there's nothing like
0:25:24 > 0:25:26the camaraderie that you
0:25:26 > 0:25:29have in Westminster, cos I worked in Westminster for a long time.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32There was often quite...pals across the dispatch box.
0:25:32 > 0:25:33That ain't the case here,
0:25:33 > 0:25:37and especially not between the Nats - the Nationalists - and Labour.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41They really do loathe each other with a passion, it's great stuff.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43You've been writing about Scottish politicians up here.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45Are they easy to send up?
0:25:45 > 0:25:48Well, they're fairly one-dimensional.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51I mean, it's... What's the expression?
0:25:51 > 0:25:52You get what's on the tin.
0:25:52 > 0:25:54They are what they say they are.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57They're not like a lot of Westminster politicians.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59They're not like David Cameron, a rich kid from
0:25:59 > 0:26:02Eton who pretends he's ordinary middle class
0:26:02 > 0:26:05or George Osborne who pretends he's not a millionaire.
0:26:05 > 0:26:08They're all self-made, there's no sort of...
0:26:08 > 0:26:11Very little public school ethos in Scottish politics,
0:26:11 > 0:26:16and then the women tend to be as hard as nails.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19I mean, Johann Lamont is tough as old boots, hide of a rhino,
0:26:19 > 0:26:24brilliant debater and, I mean, I hate these sexist expressions
0:26:24 > 0:26:25but in Glasgow it's said that
0:26:25 > 0:26:29you wouldn't take a burst pay packet home to Johann Lamont.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33There are a lot more women in the Scottish Parliament than in...
0:26:33 > 0:26:35That's a really positive thing, isn't it?
0:26:35 > 0:26:37I mean, it's effectively three party...
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Well, if you leave Alex Salmond out
0:26:39 > 0:26:41as kind of the President rather than the...
0:26:41 > 0:26:42LAUGHTER
0:26:42 > 0:26:45You know? Effectively, the three leaders of the main parties.
0:26:45 > 0:26:46And one of them's a kickboxer.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48And a lesbian. And it's the Tory!
0:26:48 > 0:26:51Who knew that? That's amazing, I mean, that's just...
0:26:51 > 0:26:53We had that with Thatcher, of course.
0:26:53 > 0:26:55LAUGHTER
0:26:55 > 0:26:59That's the great thing, the fantastic thing about Scottish politics, that the
0:26:59 > 0:27:01Tory leader is a lesbian kickboxer.
0:27:01 > 0:27:03Beat that, David Cameron!
0:27:03 > 0:27:04LAUGHTER
0:27:04 > 0:27:06Nicola Sturgeon, you know, very strong,
0:27:06 > 0:27:07powerful position in the SNP.
0:27:07 > 0:27:12Ruth Davidson, the Tories, and Johann Lamont, Labour Party.
0:27:12 > 0:27:15Three strong women at the front of politics.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18That's a good thing. Does it change the quality of the debate?
0:27:18 > 0:27:19It's very good, because...
0:27:19 > 0:27:22And, it was one of the things that they did at the start of the
0:27:22 > 0:27:25Scottish Parliament, which I was a bit dubious about, but it's worked.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28No, I think there's a huge proportion of women in here.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30Much better than Westminster, and they do change
0:27:30 > 0:27:32the atmosphere of the place.
0:27:32 > 0:27:37For a starter, they've all got to be hame for their tea at 5.30.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40I mean, that place disappears like snow off a dyke come 5.30.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42They're down here for the train back home to Glasgow
0:27:42 > 0:27:44or wherever they're going.
0:27:44 > 0:27:45That's very civilised.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48Well, it is and it isn't, because it means that the day's debates
0:27:48 > 0:27:51are truncated to a ridiculous extent.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55For instance, a speech during a big bill in the Scottish Parliament
0:27:55 > 0:27:58seldom lasts more than five minutes, a backbench speech.
0:27:58 > 0:28:00Whereas at Westminster, they can talk as long as they like,
0:28:00 > 0:28:02until the guillotine comes down. So, I mean...
0:28:02 > 0:28:05But it focuses... You've obviously never done the school run.
0:28:05 > 0:28:07Of course I have. Of course I have.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10I've done it twice, I'm on my second marriage.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13- So you CAN break up a union?- Ah...
0:28:13 > 0:28:17Now, there's lots of jokes about them working three days a week.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20Now, I kind of like the fact that they had Mondays to go to the
0:28:20 > 0:28:22constituencies and work stuff out.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26I mean, if you think about it, either people scrabble
0:28:26 > 0:28:30to try to get everything ready on a Sunday night in family time
0:28:30 > 0:28:32and all the rest of it, or they think
0:28:32 > 0:28:34"OK, right, Monday the children are at school, or whatever,
0:28:34 > 0:28:36"and I can concentrate, focus and
0:28:36 > 0:28:38"do the work and prepare for the debate on Tuesday."
0:28:38 > 0:28:40So it seemed very civilised.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43I had a more cynical approach to that one of the short working weeks,
0:28:43 > 0:28:46thinking that Johann Lamont, who used to be a teacher,
0:28:46 > 0:28:48she moved from teaching into the Parliament
0:28:48 > 0:28:50because it's the only business that gets more holidays!
0:28:50 > 0:28:52LAUGHTER
0:28:52 > 0:28:56Alex Salmond, talk about him as a character and as a personality
0:28:56 > 0:28:57and as a politician.
0:28:57 > 0:29:02Alex Salmond is a sort of guy from a cooncil hoose in Linlithgow,
0:29:02 > 0:29:06went to St Andrews University, very clever, a lad o' pairts,
0:29:06 > 0:29:07as you know the expression.
0:29:07 > 0:29:09A lad of what?
0:29:09 > 0:29:13A lad of pairts. It means a lad who's been around and got on.
0:29:13 > 0:29:15- P-a-i-r-t-s, check it.- OK.
0:29:15 > 0:29:20He is definitely the biggest beast in the Scottish political firmament.
0:29:20 > 0:29:25In fact, there's no arguments with the great leader, Alex Salmond.
0:29:25 > 0:29:26Nobody disputes what he says.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29I'm sure they do privately, in the dark watches of the night
0:29:29 > 0:29:32or in some secret bar in Edinburgh where he can't find them
0:29:32 > 0:29:35or hear them, they dispute his policies, but it's astonishing.
0:29:35 > 0:29:40And I hesitate to use the word Stalinist, but it's Stalinist.
0:29:42 > 0:29:46- SALMOND:- 'This referendum is not just about an independent Scotland.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49'It's about a belief that, for Scotland,
0:29:49 > 0:29:53'there can be, there must be a better way.'
0:29:53 > 0:29:55When you're learning a voice, you've got to listen to it
0:29:55 > 0:29:58often enough and long enough to forget what's being said
0:29:58 > 0:30:00and concentrate on how they're saying it.
0:30:00 > 0:30:02So you pick up a kind of rhythm and you think,
0:30:02 > 0:30:04- AS SALMOND:- Where does it come from?
0:30:04 > 0:30:06Does it come from the throat?
0:30:06 > 0:30:08Does it come from the nose? Is it nasal?
0:30:08 > 0:30:11Does it come from in-between the buttocks?
0:30:12 > 0:30:16- AS SELF:- And then, once you start to learn the speech pattern...
0:30:16 > 0:30:18It's the same with someone like Obama,
0:30:18 > 0:30:20AS OBAMA: Because Obama speaks very slowly,
0:30:20 > 0:30:23in sentences of five words.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25Occasionally two.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27Sometimes even three.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30- AS SALMOND:- And with Alex Salmond, I think it is...
0:30:30 > 0:30:32It's a thin, reedy sort of back-of-the-throat kind of voice,
0:30:32 > 0:30:35but he projects. He's a good speaker.
0:30:38 > 0:30:43- AS SELF:- God, that's such a fantastic view of the Forth and over to Fife...
0:30:43 > 0:30:46- AS BROWN:- And the kingdom of Gordon Brown where he sits in Queensferry
0:30:46 > 0:30:50and broods and looks down... and thinks of what might have been
0:30:50 > 0:30:52and what should have been...
0:30:52 > 0:30:55and what could have been.
0:30:55 > 0:30:58- AS SELF:- 'I cross over the Forth Bridge within view of Gordon Brown's
0:30:58 > 0:31:01'northern retirement home, Dunrulin, and head for Aberdeen.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04'I might be learning a bit about who runs Scotland,
0:31:04 > 0:31:06'but what about who owns Scotland?
0:31:06 > 0:31:09'Just a drive and a wedge from Donald Trump's controversial new
0:31:09 > 0:31:13'golf course on "the great doons of Scotland," I meet campaigner
0:31:13 > 0:31:17'Andy Wightman, who can dish the dirt on our own little patch of dirt.'
0:31:17 > 0:31:20Who actually owns the land in Scotland?
0:31:20 > 0:31:23We've got a very, very concentrated
0:31:23 > 0:31:24pattern of land ownership.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26About two thirds of Scotland
0:31:26 > 0:31:28is owned by 1,500, 1,600 people.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31The most concentrated pattern of private land ownership
0:31:31 > 0:31:33anywhere in the world really, outside...
0:31:33 > 0:31:35- More than England?- Yes, yes, yes.
0:31:35 > 0:31:37And the interesting thing about Scotland is
0:31:37 > 0:31:39we haven't followed the European model.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42You know, most of continental Europe - France, Germany, Italy,
0:31:42 > 0:31:45Scandinavia - you know, they had revolutions,
0:31:45 > 0:31:49they changed the inheritance laws to give children the right to inherit
0:31:49 > 0:31:52land, whereas in Scotland we've been kind of stuck in the dark ages.
0:31:52 > 0:31:54Does the Crown not own a lot of Scotland, as well?
0:31:54 > 0:31:57Well, the Crown owns the land we're walking on just now. It owns...
0:31:57 > 0:32:00- Really?- Yeah. It owns about half of the foreshore.
0:32:00 > 0:32:03You know, traditionally the Crown had paid
0:32:03 > 0:32:04for the upkeep of the country.
0:32:04 > 0:32:06They'd paid the diplomats, they'd paid the navy,
0:32:06 > 0:32:09and then as we started getting income taxes
0:32:09 > 0:32:12and other taxes and government grew, the government said
0:32:12 > 0:32:16"Look, we'll take that revenue and we'll just pay you a civil list."
0:32:16 > 0:32:19So, I mean, actually people like Prince Charles I think have been
0:32:19 > 0:32:23very keen to get back the revenues of the Crown for himself.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26But, you know, if... And he has actually been quite active in that.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29But if he did want that, the deal would be
0:32:29 > 0:32:32he would have to pay for the Foreign Office and Her Majesty's
0:32:32 > 0:32:34ships and stuff, you know, because this is revenue.
0:32:34 > 0:32:36- AS CHARLES:- Would you mind not saying that on camera?
0:32:36 > 0:32:39It's a lot of money. I mean, I don't know if you've met
0:32:39 > 0:32:43many diplomats, but they drink such a lot of wine.
0:32:43 > 0:32:45I've got cellars at home...
0:32:45 > 0:32:49He's got 15%. You know. Is it called the Sovereign Grant Bill?
0:32:49 > 0:32:54So the Crown Estate is essentially stuff that has come to
0:32:54 > 0:32:55royalty or the monarchy.
0:32:55 > 0:32:58It's not owned by the Queen, it's owned by the Crown Estate.
0:32:58 > 0:33:02So it means that the Queen can never sell it, but it means she owns it.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05- What can she do on it? - Well, she earns money from it.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08She earns 15% of everything that's made on it
0:33:08 > 0:33:10and the rest goes to the taxpayer,
0:33:10 > 0:33:13but that was the deal, that she gets 15% of everything.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16Right, so you could say she's taxed at 85%
0:33:16 > 0:33:18on everything she gets.
0:33:18 > 0:33:19LAUGHTER
0:33:19 > 0:33:21- She's a hero.- Yes. Exactly!
0:33:21 > 0:33:24Out here, they're planning this big Aberdeen,
0:33:24 > 0:33:27you know, renewable project.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29Oh, a wind farm?
0:33:29 > 0:33:32Yeah, yeah, a big test facility for offshore renewables.
0:33:32 > 0:33:33Very important test facility.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36Now, of course, they'll be paying rent to the Crown for...
0:33:36 > 0:33:40- Ker-ching!- ..permission to,
0:33:40 > 0:33:42you know, use the sea bed.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45Now, if we can get that sorted,
0:33:45 > 0:33:48then Scotland's got 25% of the marine renewable
0:33:48 > 0:33:52resources of the whole of Europe in wind and wave and tidal.
0:33:52 > 0:33:58As long as the moon spins rounds the Earth, I think we're all right.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02If the Scottish people vote for independence in 2014,
0:34:02 > 0:34:05the big question, "Will the moon still revolve around the Earth?"
0:34:05 > 0:34:08That's a good question. I think the Better Together campaign
0:34:08 > 0:34:11are arguing that there's a risk it won't.
0:34:11 > 0:34:13At least it'll miss out Scotland, you know?
0:34:13 > 0:34:16It's not exactly a rallying call for independence, is it?
0:34:16 > 0:34:20- It's not neat, no. - More tax on land.
0:34:20 > 0:34:24Do we establish it's not a rich area for comedy, land reform?
0:34:24 > 0:34:26LAUGHTER
0:34:26 > 0:34:28Very pleasurable to read about.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30Fascinating stuff.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32There's been no better bedtime reading than...
0:34:32 > 0:34:34Jimmy Cricket had some great stuff on it...
0:34:40 > 0:34:44And, talking of rich areas, they don't come much richer than oil.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46For decades, North Sea oil has had
0:34:46 > 0:34:49a major effect on Britain's fortunes.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52The black stuff, and the little matter of who owns it,
0:34:52 > 0:34:55is at the heart of the argument over independence.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58Getting to the truth is hard.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01Making it funny might be an even bigger challenge.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10I wanted to talk to an expert, and who better than
0:35:10 > 0:35:13Professor Alex Kemp, who wrote the book on North Sea oil.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17Actually, two books.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20Can he settle the argument once and for all?
0:35:21 > 0:35:26If Scotland were to declare independence next year,
0:35:26 > 0:35:29would they have all that oil at their disposal?
0:35:29 > 0:35:32Is there a cut-and-dried answer to the fact that,
0:35:32 > 0:35:36no question, oil will fuel Scottish independence?
0:35:36 > 0:35:39OK, well, the first point I would make is that the
0:35:39 > 0:35:42remaining potential is still very large.
0:35:42 > 0:35:47We produced about 41 billion barrels oil equivalent to date.
0:35:47 > 0:35:49The remaining potential, the central estimate
0:35:49 > 0:35:52of the Department of Energy is about 20 billion barrels
0:35:52 > 0:35:55of oil equivalent, which is, of course, still a huge amount.
0:35:55 > 0:35:57'There's still a lot of oil there now'
0:35:57 > 0:35:59according to oil expert Alex Kemp,
0:35:59 > 0:36:02who spent the last eight years writing the two-volume
0:36:02 > 0:36:03official history of Scottish oil.
0:36:03 > 0:36:06You should get hold of it, if only because when the oil runs out,
0:36:06 > 0:36:09you'll still have enough fuel to burn for at least three years.
0:36:09 > 0:36:11And it's generally accepted that there's at least
0:36:11 > 0:36:14one and a half trillion pounds worth of oil
0:36:14 > 0:36:16and gas left in the North Sea, which is great.
0:36:16 > 0:36:21It's one of the biggest bones of contention between the pro and anti-independence lobby.
0:36:21 > 0:36:23It's the source of one of the biggest conspiracy theories
0:36:23 > 0:36:26for the Nationalists, based around the McCrone Report,
0:36:26 > 0:36:28which sounds like a study of Scottish witches.
0:36:28 > 0:36:30LAUGHTER
0:36:30 > 0:36:33"Hubble, bubble, oil is trouble."
0:36:33 > 0:36:37And what it showed was that oil was a huge potential benefit
0:36:37 > 0:36:40for an independent Scotland, and, not surprisingly,
0:36:40 > 0:36:42it's one of the key arguments for the Nationalists now.
0:36:42 > 0:36:44- AS CAMERON:- I mean, look, it's ridiculous.
0:36:44 > 0:36:46Just because the government at Westminster,
0:36:46 > 0:36:50perfectly reasonable, kept that report hidden away for nearly
0:36:50 > 0:36:5230 years under lock and key,
0:36:52 > 0:36:54refusing to let anyone else see it,
0:36:54 > 0:36:57it doesn't mean that they should get all upset about it now.
0:36:57 > 0:37:01- AS SELF:- The report, the 1970s, it suggested that Scotland's
0:37:01 > 0:37:03currency could be one of the most stable in the world.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06All the world's wealthy would flock here.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09Maryhill would become the new Monte Carlo.
0:37:09 > 0:37:10LAUGHTER
0:37:10 > 0:37:14Sean Connery would swap the Bahamas for Millport.
0:37:15 > 0:37:19- AS CONNERY:- "Shlightly chilly for the time of year."
0:37:19 > 0:37:21So there's a lot there. Whose is it?
0:37:21 > 0:37:25OK, on that point, if it came to independence,
0:37:25 > 0:37:28we estimate that, as far as oil is concerned,
0:37:28 > 0:37:32it could be well over 90%,
0:37:32 > 0:37:3594, 95% of the oil
0:37:35 > 0:37:38would be in what would become the Scottish sector.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42That fact that popped up about Tony Blair shifting
0:37:42 > 0:37:44- the maritime boundary. - Yes! I had no idea!
0:37:44 > 0:37:46What? What's that?
0:37:46 > 0:37:49Well, it was... Unless it's completely made up, but...
0:37:49 > 0:37:52- Yeah, again! - It was Tony Blair, exactly.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55In 1999, Tony Blair shifted the maritime boundary to include,
0:37:55 > 0:37:58basically... They moved it up from, was it?
0:38:00 > 0:38:03Up to Carnoustie from somewhere.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06They've done it really quietly. I didn't know until I read it...
0:38:06 > 0:38:08To be fair, he was going to give Scotland Basra,
0:38:08 > 0:38:09that was part of his plan...
0:38:09 > 0:38:11LAUGHTER
0:38:11 > 0:38:14Tony Blair quietly redrew the boundary in 1999, extending
0:38:14 > 0:38:18England's coastal waters northwards to take in more of the North Sea.
0:38:18 > 0:38:20- AS BILLY CONNOLLY:- Oh, do you bloody think so?
0:38:21 > 0:38:24- AS BLAIR:- Oh, come on, look.
0:38:24 > 0:38:26Perfectly legal.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28I mean, look, do you really think that
0:38:28 > 0:38:30I would do something illegal...
0:38:31 > 0:38:33..just to get hold of some oil?
0:38:33 > 0:38:35LAUGHTER
0:38:35 > 0:38:37Who do you think I am?
0:38:37 > 0:38:39If we take the last financial year,
0:38:39 > 0:38:432011/12, we estimate that
0:38:43 > 0:38:48the Scottish government, if it were independent,
0:38:48 > 0:38:55would have got about ten billion pounds from North Sea oil.
0:38:55 > 0:38:58Now that's very, very big, and looking forward,
0:38:58 > 0:39:01I've said as a guesstimate, that there could be between
0:39:01 > 0:39:04five and ten billion pounds per year.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07How much impact is it going to have on ordinary Scots?
0:39:07 > 0:39:10Is it just going to end up with one super-rich Scot pissing
0:39:10 > 0:39:13all his money away on a premiership football club?
0:39:13 > 0:39:16Also, the first ten years of oil revenue is just going to go to
0:39:16 > 0:39:18pay off Rangers' debt.
0:39:18 > 0:39:19LAUGHTER
0:39:19 > 0:39:20Tax bill, yeah.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23You're not going to get out of Glasgow alive, Andy...
0:39:23 > 0:39:26I'm a Partick Thistle fan. Massive, massive fan.
0:39:26 > 0:39:30I'm Jewish. That's the Jewish club isn't it, Partick Thistle?
0:39:33 > 0:39:36With a signing bigger than any by Partick Thistle,
0:39:36 > 0:39:41the date of the referendum was set - September 18th 2014.
0:39:41 > 0:39:44Potentially the biggest social
0:39:44 > 0:39:47and political change Scotland has seen in 300 years,
0:39:47 > 0:39:50the outcome of the referendum raises many questions.
0:39:50 > 0:39:54Even the question of the question itself begs questions.
0:39:54 > 0:39:57'The wording of the question.'
0:39:57 > 0:40:00Both sides obviously wanted to get their favoured wording on the ballot paper.
0:40:00 > 0:40:03The SNP originally wanted two questions.
0:40:03 > 0:40:05One, "Are you in favour of an independent Scotland?"
0:40:05 > 0:40:07Two, "Why not?"
0:40:07 > 0:40:09LAUGHTER
0:40:12 > 0:40:15When the SNP were told it had to be one question, they wanted
0:40:15 > 0:40:17"Should Scotland ditch the bloated,
0:40:17 > 0:40:20"straggly appendage that's been dangling off
0:40:20 > 0:40:22"its southern border, holding it back
0:40:22 > 0:40:23"for the last 300 years?"
0:40:25 > 0:40:27LAUGHTER
0:40:27 > 0:40:29While the unionists wanted the question to be
0:40:29 > 0:40:32"Do you really want to chainsaw the Queen into pieces
0:40:32 > 0:40:34"just for the sake of petty political point scoring?"
0:40:34 > 0:40:37Even Better Together sounds a wee bit timid,
0:40:37 > 0:40:40a wee bit scared to go alone, but the No campaign's actually
0:40:40 > 0:40:43missed out one of the best reasons for staying together, which is
0:40:43 > 0:40:46that we've always got somebody else to blame.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49So we blame the English for screwing everything up and they blame us
0:40:49 > 0:40:52for being Scottish, and it's worked for 300 years.
0:40:52 > 0:40:54Mutual blame.
0:40:55 > 0:40:57They should call the campaign Bitter Together.
0:40:57 > 0:40:58LAUGHTER
0:40:58 > 0:41:02Are there any sort of actors that have come out
0:41:02 > 0:41:07in favour of, like vehemently or vocally, in favour of the union?
0:41:07 > 0:41:09Sean Connery...No, he's on the opposite.
0:41:09 > 0:41:11Billy Connolly, I think, Billy Connolly.
0:41:11 > 0:41:13Is he not a bit more pro-union?
0:41:13 > 0:41:15You obviously get people in the business sector,
0:41:15 > 0:41:17like Michelle Mone. but then Better Together,
0:41:17 > 0:41:19isn't that the kind of the tagline of...
0:41:19 > 0:41:21The opposite. Don't get very good cleavage.
0:41:21 > 0:41:23LAUGHTER
0:41:24 > 0:41:27But Michelle Mone sells bras.
0:41:27 > 0:41:29Of course she'd say Better Together,
0:41:29 > 0:41:31but she also sells separates.
0:41:31 > 0:41:34Hmm. But what about the Yes campaign?
0:41:34 > 0:41:37'Can Scotland go it alone?'
0:41:37 > 0:41:40'The SNP's unprecedented victory at the last Scottish elections
0:41:40 > 0:41:42'meant they could stop dreaming of independence
0:41:42 > 0:41:44'and start campaigning for it.'
0:41:46 > 0:41:49There's no question that, you know, the idea of independence,
0:41:49 > 0:41:53there is a romantic sort of idealism about it, but there are
0:41:53 > 0:41:58so many really sort of quite thorny, difficult practical issues.
0:41:58 > 0:42:00So presumably you're going to spend the next year,
0:42:00 > 0:42:02year and a half explaining how to solve those?
0:42:02 > 0:42:04Well, with the Union there are
0:42:04 > 0:42:06a lot of thorny, difficult issues.
0:42:06 > 0:42:07There's a lot of uncertainty,
0:42:07 > 0:42:09and we're looking ahead, you know,
0:42:09 > 0:42:12we've lost the AAA credit rating, we're having a thing
0:42:12 > 0:42:15called the bedroom tax imposed on people in Scotland.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18You know, the poorest people, 100,000 people,
0:42:18 > 0:42:2080% of whom have got disabilities,
0:42:20 > 0:42:23are going to be at risk of being thrown out of their house.
0:42:23 > 0:42:25That's under the Union and most,
0:42:25 > 0:42:2990% of Scottish MPs in Westminster voted against that.
0:42:29 > 0:42:32Very quickly, Westminster becomes a symbol of everything that's
0:42:32 > 0:42:35wrong and independence becomes this Promised Land where you place
0:42:35 > 0:42:37all of your hopes and dreams.
0:42:37 > 0:42:41There's something strangely familiar about the dream.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44You know, the chance of a new, social democratic beginning,
0:42:44 > 0:42:47free from the old Tory establishment where...
0:42:47 > 0:42:51- AS BLAIR:- The country could choose a better future,
0:42:51 > 0:42:54where the nation's children would not
0:42:54 > 0:42:55be sent to fight in foreign wars...
0:42:57 > 0:42:59..and illegal occupations.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02- AS SELF:- And you think "Where have I heard that before?"
0:43:02 > 0:43:06You know, Tony Blair actually said that in 1997, in May 1997 in Paris.
0:43:06 > 0:43:10- AS BLAIR:- "Ours may be the first generation never to go to war
0:43:10 > 0:43:11or send their children to war."
0:43:12 > 0:43:15Yeah, all right, OK. I had my fingers crossed.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17But, look...
0:43:17 > 0:43:20- AS SELF:- But if that happened before, it's possible. Who knows?
0:43:20 > 0:43:22In a few years' time Scotland could go to war with an oil-rich
0:43:22 > 0:43:24nation, possibly the Shetlands...
0:43:24 > 0:43:26LAUGHTER
0:43:26 > 0:43:28And then where would we be?
0:43:28 > 0:43:32Sure, Scotland has oil, but it will run out at some time
0:43:32 > 0:43:35and then we'll be reduced to fracking Alex Salmond.
0:43:35 > 0:43:38LAUGHTER
0:43:38 > 0:43:40So you know, you're making a case very strongly,
0:43:40 > 0:43:42and the union, as I say,
0:43:42 > 0:43:46it's kind of like on its back at the moment with its legs in the air,
0:43:46 > 0:43:50Should you not be doing better than, what, 30, 35%?
0:43:50 > 0:43:54Well, the last poll had about 11 points between the
0:43:54 > 0:43:58Yes and the No, so that's a five point swing that you need,
0:43:58 > 0:44:02and there's lots of people who haven't made up their mind yet.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05Now, if you look in 2011 in the election,
0:44:05 > 0:44:08the SNP was 15 points behind Labour in January
0:44:08 > 0:44:12and we went on in May to win an overall majority.
0:44:12 > 0:44:15So we think that five point swing is...
0:44:15 > 0:44:19We're not taking anything for granted, but we think we'll do it.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22'I'll mark Joan down as a 'Yes'.
0:44:22 > 0:44:24'But what about the Nos?
0:44:24 > 0:44:27'As I head to London to find out, I'm still fretting about the big
0:44:27 > 0:44:30'question - can I master that impression of Alex Salmond?'
0:44:30 > 0:44:34- SALMOND:- 'This referendum is not just about an independent Scotland,
0:44:34 > 0:44:37'it's about a belief that, for Scotland,
0:44:37 > 0:44:41'there can be, there must be a better way.'
0:44:41 > 0:44:44Really, you know a voice is ready when you can just picture
0:44:44 > 0:44:47somebody in your mind making a speech, and you're providing
0:44:47 > 0:44:50the soundtrack to that speech and if...
0:44:52 > 0:44:54..if it rings true...
0:44:54 > 0:44:57- AS SALMOND:- If it sounds right, if it sounds more or less there,
0:44:57 > 0:44:59try it out on other people.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01And you say 'Who's that?'
0:45:01 > 0:45:04And if they say "that sounds like Nelson Mandela"
0:45:04 > 0:45:06then you know you're not quite there, you're not in the zone.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08It is now or never.
0:45:08 > 0:45:12I believe it was that well-known independent Scot,
0:45:12 > 0:45:16the father of Scottish Nationalism, Elvis Presley, who first uttered
0:45:16 > 0:45:19the immortal words 'it's now or never'
0:45:22 > 0:45:25and it's sad that he will no longer be with us,
0:45:25 > 0:45:29to see that great day of independence, having chosen instead
0:45:29 > 0:45:34an ignominious death, sitting on the cludgie, wi' a carry out.
0:45:35 > 0:45:40That is how he ended his life, conference,
0:45:40 > 0:45:44but that is how I began mine...on the cludgie wi' a carry out,
0:45:45 > 0:45:49saying to myself 'it's now or never'.
0:45:49 > 0:45:53We're gonna squeeze this thing out if it's the last thing we do,
0:45:53 > 0:45:57until we finally pass the motion
0:45:57 > 0:46:01and celebrate this great nation.
0:46:01 > 0:46:03Thank you, I move.
0:46:04 > 0:46:08- AS SELF:- And so we come to Alex Salmond, inevitably, because it is in fact,
0:46:08 > 0:46:11it is illegal under the Scottish Constitution,
0:46:11 > 0:46:14to do a programme about independence without mentioning Alex Salmond.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17He is officially the only politician in Scotland.
0:46:17 > 0:46:21The great leader, not so much a career politician as a North Korea politician.
0:46:21 > 0:46:22LAUGHTER
0:46:24 > 0:46:27Not so much Kim Jong-"Ill" as Kim Jong-Peely-Wally.
0:46:27 > 0:46:30LAUGHTER
0:46:30 > 0:46:34Office at the top of the Scott Monument with a 360-degree view over the capital,
0:46:34 > 0:46:38like a Bond villain stroking a cat...or Nicola Sturgeon.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41LAUGHTER
0:46:41 > 0:46:43"One day, all this will be mine."
0:46:45 > 0:46:49What happens if the people of Shetland decide it's time they want to be independent?
0:46:49 > 0:46:51Has Alex Salmond checked that contract?
0:46:51 > 0:46:55"People of Shetland, I say to you 'Better Together'."
0:46:55 > 0:46:57LAUGHTER
0:46:59 > 0:47:02I may be an impressionist, but I'm also impressionable.
0:47:02 > 0:47:06The Nationalists have had their chance to sway me with the possibilities
0:47:06 > 0:47:08of an independent Scotland.
0:47:08 > 0:47:10Now it's time to hear the other side.
0:47:10 > 0:47:14I need to hear a strong argument, and when it comes to arguing,
0:47:14 > 0:47:18they don't come much stronger than Westminster MP Ian Davidson.
0:47:18 > 0:47:22What you're doing is, instead of going ahead with a legal solution,
0:47:22 > 0:47:25you attach conditions to it, which is a political decision.
0:47:25 > 0:47:27No, I understand that, I mean I understand that
0:47:27 > 0:47:32"News-Nat" Scotland's position is that the power should be given to the Scottish Parliament
0:47:32 > 0:47:36and the SNP should do as they wish. We understand that, the reality is...
0:47:36 > 0:47:40Mr Davidson, that is a ludicrous... I cannot let you continue, that is a ludicrous proposition to say.
0:47:40 > 0:47:43- Well, I don't believe it. - I am asking you...
0:47:43 > 0:47:46And I am about to answer you if you won't interrupt, let me answer.
0:47:46 > 0:47:51- I am asking you a reasonable question and I am entitled to. - And I'm entitled to answer.
0:47:51 > 0:47:54Time to go toe-to-toe with the honourable member for Glasgow South-West,
0:47:54 > 0:47:58in the gladiatorial arena that is Westminster Hall.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03Pretty strong Tory majority down south, does it not tempt you to think,
0:48:03 > 0:48:08well, actually, you've got a strong Labour tradition in Scotland
0:48:08 > 0:48:11and if that was an independent country there's a lot you could do?
0:48:11 > 0:48:14That's just a "have you stopped beating your wife" sort of question.
0:48:14 > 0:48:15I don't accept,
0:48:15 > 0:48:21that those are the only two options, either separation, as we would call it, or being run by the Tories.
0:48:21 > 0:48:26I think that what Labour has fought for with the assistance of the Liberals and some others
0:48:26 > 0:48:30for a period is remaining in the United Kingdom and devolution,
0:48:30 > 0:48:33which in my view gives us the best of both possible worlds.
0:48:33 > 0:48:37I do think that there are enormous advantages that Scotland gets from being part
0:48:37 > 0:48:42of the Union, but there's also huge gains that we get from having a devolved parliament.
0:48:42 > 0:48:44- But they'd say they're frustrated... - Of course they do.
0:48:44 > 0:48:48"Why aren't the people of Scotland allowed to decide the future of Scotland?"
0:48:48 > 0:48:50runs the argument.
0:48:50 > 0:48:54The people of Scotland will be allowed to decide the future of Scotland by a referendum,
0:48:54 > 0:49:00and I think if we vote, as I anticipate we will, to remain within the United Kingdom,
0:49:00 > 0:49:03then we will have chosen that particular option.
0:49:03 > 0:49:08Just a few weeks ago the Scottish Government named the day for the vote, 18th September, 2014.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11Big day, big day.
0:49:11 > 0:49:152014 will, of course, be the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn,
0:49:15 > 0:49:20one of the most famous victories in Scottish history, right up there with Wembley in 1967
0:49:20 > 0:49:22and Murrayfield 1990.
0:49:22 > 0:49:26- AS BILL MCLAREN:- And there's Tony Stanger in the corner, my goodness me, he's gonna score
0:49:26 > 0:49:30and they'll be dancing in the streets of Drumnadrochit tonight I tell you, och, well.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32APPLAUSE
0:49:35 > 0:49:40And it'll also be the 40th anniversary of the Bay City Rollers' breakthrough year.
0:49:40 > 0:49:42Yeah, so it cuts both ways, really, doesn't it?
0:49:42 > 0:49:46I mean, Scotland as a financial market, as a financial situation,
0:49:46 > 0:49:50we would have been bankrupt had we not had the United Kingdom to
0:49:50 > 0:49:53bail the Royal Bank of Scotland and the Bank of Scotland out.
0:49:53 > 0:49:55Quite clearly that would have been the case.
0:49:55 > 0:50:00Our crisis would have been far, far greater than that of Ireland or any of the Mediterranean
0:50:00 > 0:50:02countries in these circumstances.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05That's one of the strengths of the Union.
0:50:05 > 0:50:09The Unionists always ask how Scotland would have survived after RBS blew up,
0:50:09 > 0:50:13forgetting that most of RBS's operation was based in London or the United States.
0:50:13 > 0:50:15Their mess, they clear it up.
0:50:15 > 0:50:20What people don't understand is that the word 'Scotland' in the name Royal Bank of Scotland
0:50:20 > 0:50:22was purely a selling point.
0:50:22 > 0:50:25It was ceremonial, to make, to make it more appealing.
0:50:25 > 0:50:28Like the word beef in Tesco's beef burgers.
0:50:28 > 0:50:29LAUGHTER
0:50:29 > 0:50:31It's purely for selling.
0:50:31 > 0:50:34Why is there no political comedy in Scotland?
0:50:34 > 0:50:37Cos we're all boring and dull. It's too serious.
0:50:37 > 0:50:39Well, you are, obviously, but I mean...
0:50:39 > 0:50:42Thank you, thank you. That's...thank you, Mr Kettle.
0:50:42 > 0:50:46Erm, but this is a serious business, we certainly don't want any
0:50:46 > 0:50:50stuck-up public schoolboys coming north and mocking us.
0:50:50 > 0:50:54I mean no names, no pack-drill, erm, but you know, the fact that you're,
0:50:54 > 0:50:58the fact that you're Scottish might allow you to get away with it.
0:50:58 > 0:51:02But again, you're one of that tribe that presumably an expensive education
0:51:02 > 0:51:04was spent making sure you didn't sound Scottish?
0:51:04 > 0:51:06Half of me is Scottish.
0:51:06 > 0:51:08That's right, half of you is Scottish.
0:51:08 > 0:51:11So I mean I think that the people would, would be quite happy to be mocked by their own.
0:51:13 > 0:51:19'Ooft! Well, perhaps this debate is a little more heated than I first imagined.'
0:51:19 > 0:51:22'The Lib Dems are also preaching that we're better together,
0:51:22 > 0:51:25'but theirs is a No backed up with an alternative.'
0:51:27 > 0:51:31'And thankfully, one side effect of devolution is that the Scottish Secretary, Michael Moore,
0:51:31 > 0:51:35'has more than enough free time to speak to the likes of me.'
0:51:35 > 0:51:39You're part of the coalition. You wake up every morning and you see what Cameron and Osborne
0:51:39 > 0:51:42have done, and you think, "Oh, no we're being tarred with that brush."
0:51:42 > 0:51:48You're part of the coalition and you get blamed for the austerity, for the cuts, for all of that,
0:51:48 > 0:51:52and you're thinking, you know, "We could break free of being a member of the coalition."
0:51:52 > 0:51:55Could you not just bring the same argument to Scotland?
0:51:55 > 0:52:00Things are tough at the moment, really tough, and they will be tough for, for a while yet.
0:52:00 > 0:52:03But the idea that somehow with one bound we might be free
0:52:03 > 0:52:06and it would all be rosy and different, I don't think...
0:52:06 > 0:52:09Scots are essentially pragmatic, I don't think people buy that.
0:52:09 > 0:52:13What they do see is the strength of being part of something bigger,
0:52:13 > 0:52:18when the competition in the world is only going to get stiffer.
0:52:18 > 0:52:21That's much better, to be part of the UK than to be on our own.
0:52:21 > 0:52:25There is a third way in all this, and of course it's a Lib Dem suggestion.
0:52:25 > 0:52:27It's called the Home Rule Commission.
0:52:27 > 0:52:30If you're having trouble sleeping I can recommend
0:52:30 > 0:52:34the Lib Dem's Home Rule and Community Rule Commission Report.
0:52:34 > 0:52:37It's a federal approach, calling for increased local powers,
0:52:37 > 0:52:41so a centralised Westminster Government isn't replaced by a centralised Edinburgh Government.
0:52:41 > 0:52:43But there's a strong Lib Dem tradition in Scotland,
0:52:43 > 0:52:46David Steel, Charles Kennedy, Ming Campbell -
0:52:46 > 0:52:49who, who fought at Bannockburn of course.
0:52:49 > 0:52:51LAUGHTER
0:52:51 > 0:52:56- AS PAXMAN:- Erm, yes, Ming Campbell, you'll be Chair of the Home Rule and Community Rule Commission.
0:52:56 > 0:52:59Erm, is this some kind of fudge?
0:52:59 > 0:53:03- AS MING:- Well, no, if, if it is Jeremy, I'd make the point that
0:53:03 > 0:53:07it's a Scottish fudge, so therefore technically it's a tablet.
0:53:07 > 0:53:09LAUGHTER
0:53:10 > 0:53:13- AS PAXMAN:- Eh, yes, and what's, what's the difference?
0:53:13 > 0:53:16- AS MING:- Tablet's a lot harder, which goes to show that we in the
0:53:16 > 0:53:20Liberal Democrats aren't afraid of making hard choices, whether that be
0:53:20 > 0:53:24a question of constitutional reform or sugar-based confectionary.
0:53:26 > 0:53:29AS PAXMAN: Yes, Ming Campbell, away and boil your fudge.
0:53:29 > 0:53:34Have any of you been tempted by independence, any of you in favour of it?
0:53:34 > 0:53:39Because, you know, if you listen to the arguments, there are moments when you, erm...
0:53:39 > 0:53:43D'you know what, instinctively I was against it,
0:53:43 > 0:53:46but since working on the show and reading some of the facts,
0:53:46 > 0:53:48actually once you read some facts...
0:53:48 > 0:53:50Don't read facts!
0:53:50 > 0:53:52It's sort of becoming possible.
0:53:54 > 0:53:56How can you make a decision based on facts?!
0:53:58 > 0:54:02We don't need a debate. What we really need is a comparison website.
0:54:04 > 0:54:08- AS BILLY CONNOLLY:- Go Compare, comparethenation.com.
0:54:08 > 0:54:12- AS SELF:- It's true, already both sides are going for the market approach.
0:54:12 > 0:54:14Nicola Sturgeon upping the ante with a special deal.
0:54:14 > 0:54:17- AS STURGEON:- Vote independence, now with £500 cashback!
0:54:19 > 0:54:24There's so many doubts that it makes it almost impossible to make a decision.
0:54:24 > 0:54:26That's why you cannot let facts come into it,
0:54:26 > 0:54:30because you have one fact, every fact has a counter-fact.
0:54:30 > 0:54:33So you can't make a decision based on it,
0:54:33 > 0:54:36that's why politics tries, is fact-averse as a science.
0:54:39 > 0:54:42In the run-up to the referendum, both sides will try to win us
0:54:42 > 0:54:46over with appeals to the heart, slogans, and smooth talking.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50But the facts and the counter facts remain,
0:54:50 > 0:54:54and for people like writer and journalist Gerry Hassan,
0:54:54 > 0:54:57there are some facts you ignore at your peril.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03Scotland is one of the wealthiest parts of the United Kingdom.
0:55:03 > 0:55:05After London and the South East,
0:55:05 > 0:55:07it is the most wealthy part of the United Kingdom.
0:55:07 > 0:55:09That's leaving the oil out.
0:55:09 > 0:55:13If you take the oil, it's the most wealthy part of the UK, apart from London.
0:55:13 > 0:55:19This is a wealthy nation which at the same time has massive, massive poverty and inequality.
0:55:19 > 0:55:23And I sometimes say to independence supporters that there's this
0:55:23 > 0:55:26point that the UK is the fourth most unequal country in the rich world.
0:55:26 > 0:55:31If Scotland became independent tomorrow, England - Well, sorry, rUK still remains
0:55:31 > 0:55:35the fourth, and Scotland, bingo, we, we become the fifth most unequal.
0:55:35 > 0:55:37Now, that is not worth fighting over.
0:55:37 > 0:55:42If Scotland becomes independent, it needs to get to that dreaming of a different Scotland.
0:55:42 > 0:55:45We can't just move one place down the league table.
0:55:45 > 0:55:49All things being unequal, there are still many questions to be addressed.
0:55:49 > 0:55:52Not least, what a future Scotland would actually look like.
0:55:52 > 0:55:55What happens to the currency?
0:55:55 > 0:55:58If we keep the pound, we'll still be tied to the Bank of England.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01Would a Scots pound be worth less than an English pound or is
0:56:01 > 0:56:03that just with London taxi drivers?
0:56:03 > 0:56:05LAUGHTER
0:56:05 > 0:56:10Stamps! Would it still be the Queen's head, but just looking a bit disappointed?
0:56:10 > 0:56:12LAUGHTER
0:56:14 > 0:56:17And the most important question of all,
0:56:17 > 0:56:18who gets custody of Andy Murray?
0:56:18 > 0:56:20LAUGHTER
0:56:20 > 0:56:24- AS MURRAY:- Oh God, I don't really know the answer to that question.
0:56:24 > 0:56:29I haven't really thought about it. Don't bother me about it.
0:56:31 > 0:56:36But there's other possibilities. You know, would, would Taggart, would Taggart come back
0:56:36 > 0:56:41to our screens as a 14-part Nordic noir crime drama...in nice knitwear?
0:56:43 > 0:56:45- IN A DANISH ACCENT: - "There's been a murder."
0:56:45 > 0:56:47LAUGHTER
0:56:49 > 0:56:53All I'm saying is what's important is to get involved and go to the debates,
0:56:53 > 0:56:56listen to the arguments, and test them on your friends and the politicians.
0:56:56 > 0:57:00Get them to raise their game, get them to convince you of their side of the argument.
0:57:00 > 0:57:05But for now, all we can say is, 18 months away from the biggest decision
0:57:05 > 0:57:07Scotland's made in centuries.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11No matter which way it goes, it feels like the beginning of something in Scotland.
0:57:11 > 0:57:13Satire.
0:57:13 > 0:57:14LAUGHTER
0:57:14 > 0:57:19As the First Presiding Officer, David Steel, famously said...
0:57:19 > 0:57:23- AS DAVID STEEL:- "go back to your constituencies and prepare for comedy."
0:57:24 > 0:57:26Thank you, good night.
0:57:26 > 0:57:29CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:57:35 > 0:57:39That was a great audience. The thing is, they're really up for it.
0:57:39 > 0:57:42- Hi there! - Thank you very much, that was great.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44I feel a bit like a vicar.
0:57:44 > 0:57:46"Very nice sermon vicar, thank you so much".
0:57:46 > 0:57:49There's bits I didn't talk about. I didn't talk about John Swinney,
0:57:49 > 0:57:52I'll wake up in the middle of the night and think,
0:57:52 > 0:57:58"I forgot to do that thing about fracking" or "I forgot to do that statistic or this or that."
0:57:58 > 0:58:01But...anyway, we did it.
0:58:01 > 0:58:05It's technically possible to do political comedy in Scotland.
0:58:17 > 0:58:21Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd