0:00:02 > 0:00:06MUSIC: "You Know I'm No Good" by Amy Winehouse
0:00:06 > 0:00:14This programme contains some strong language and some scenes which some viewers may find upsetting.
0:00:16 > 0:00:21'This is a film about drugs. About taking drugs and getting off drugs.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24'Nowadays, I don't drink or take drugs.'
0:00:24 > 0:00:28I want you to give a big, amazing UK round of applause
0:00:28 > 0:00:31to Mr Russell Brand!
0:00:31 > 0:00:33CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:00:35 > 0:00:38I'm a little bit cool, a little bit of a twit,
0:00:38 > 0:00:40and I sort of think I'm Jesus.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43'Ten years ago, though, I couldn't get enough of them.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48'Cannabis, booze, acid, speed, coke,
0:00:48 > 0:00:50'crack, smack - that's heroin.
0:00:52 > 0:00:53'I took drugs every single day.'
0:00:58 > 0:01:03We started being afraid of the fact that you could die.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08I remember you saying, "In six months' time,
0:01:08 > 0:01:11"you're going to be dead, in prison or in a lunatic asylum."
0:01:11 > 0:01:16- Yeah.- I remember hearing that and thinking, "Fucking hell! That sounds heavy."
0:01:16 > 0:01:20It's heart-breaking as a mum, when you've brought an innocent,
0:01:20 > 0:01:24beautiful little child into the world, to see that happen.
0:01:27 > 0:01:32'I got clean at the age of 27, the age Amy Winehouse was when she died.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37'Amy's death was a paradoxical, unsurprising shock.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40'I felt like I could have done something to help,
0:01:40 > 0:01:42'to give her the chance I had.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44'That's why I made this film,
0:01:44 > 0:01:47'to have a sympathetic look at alcoholism and addiction,
0:01:47 > 0:01:51'a condition that the World Health Organization regards as a disorder.'
0:01:51 > 0:01:57Without a programme, any of us are toxic individuals to be around, innit?
0:01:57 > 0:02:00For our family, for society at large, for ourselves.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03'I reckon that drugs and alcoholism are much misunderstood
0:02:03 > 0:02:07'in our country, by users, non-users and the government.'
0:02:07 > 0:02:09We need to start regarding addiction in all its forms
0:02:09 > 0:02:12as a health issue, as opposed to a judicial and criminal issue.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18'In this film, I want to learn more and see if we could do things differently.'
0:02:19 > 0:02:25Doesn't make no difference to me - the money, the fame, the power, the sex, the women, none of it.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29I'd rather be a drug addict. If I didn't have my programme, I'd be a drug addict today.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43Like, I loved her on the basis of I thought she was really, really brilliant.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48And that I recognised, "Ah, this person's got it, this person's got the thing."
0:02:48 > 0:02:53# He left no time to regret... #
0:02:53 > 0:02:56She's not happy. She's on an edge, this person.
0:02:56 > 0:03:00She drank a glass of champagne, then threw it over her shoulder.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03And I went, "Fucking hell, mate, what're you doing that for?"
0:03:03 > 0:03:05She went, "Oh, I did it to impress you."
0:03:05 > 0:03:06I went, "Well...don't."
0:03:06 > 0:03:11And then she was sort of smoking fags and flicking them still lit around this room.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14I got this sense of a ticking clock then and spoke to a few other people
0:03:14 > 0:03:17about like, "Hey, there's... Need to do something."
0:03:17 > 0:03:21# We only said goodbye with words
0:03:21 > 0:03:23# I died a hundred times... #
0:03:23 > 0:03:28Everyone said they saw it coming but hoped it would never happen.
0:03:28 > 0:03:32Amy Winehouse, who publicly struggled with drink and drug addiction for years,
0:03:32 > 0:03:35was found dead at her home in Camden this afternoon.
0:03:35 > 0:03:39# I died a hundred times
0:03:39 > 0:03:44# You go back to her and I go back... #
0:03:44 > 0:03:48That sense that I had with Amy, that feeling of,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51"Oh! I knew that was going to happen!"
0:03:51 > 0:03:53You know, and I just suppose, for some reason,
0:03:53 > 0:03:56because of this flickering sense I had
0:03:56 > 0:03:59while Amy was alive that I should be doing something about that.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09So that's where Amy lived then, Mitch.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12- And died. In that top, left-hand room.- Oh, fuck!
0:04:14 > 0:04:16These are some of the tributes that are left.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19As you can see they've... I don't approve of writing on trees,
0:04:19 > 0:04:22but you can see that they've really made this into a shrine.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26The last six weeks of her life, five and a half weeks were sober.
0:04:26 > 0:04:30And then finally the last two days where she drank an awful lot.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33So things were moving in the right direction, but, you know,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35not fast enough, obviously.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37# They tried to make me go to rehab
0:04:37 > 0:04:41# I said no, no, no... #
0:04:41 > 0:04:45Wrongly, she didn't feel that rehab
0:04:45 > 0:04:47was for her, which is obviously...
0:04:47 > 0:04:49- She made that fucking clear, didn't she!- Yeah.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56From 2008, December, she was clear of drugs.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00But of course what happened, she didn't deal with the underlying
0:05:00 > 0:05:03addiction problem, and then finally it was the alcohol.
0:05:03 > 0:05:06Shall we have quick look at Amy Winehouse singing her heart out?
0:05:06 > 0:05:08Let's say hello to her. Amy! Are you all right, love?
0:05:08 > 0:05:10I think our hair war has finished.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13- Yeah. Let's forget, let's have hair peace between you and me now. - Yeah.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17- Let the war be over. Here, you ain't pissed, are you, love? - No, not yet.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19That's why I feel guilty, innit,
0:05:19 > 0:05:21because I am an alcoholic junkie that got clean.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25And I do, you know, I wasn't able to do anything, you know, but...
0:05:25 > 0:05:28- And you feel guilty because of that? - A bit.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32It's about Amy. She had the power within her hands to stop drinking.
0:05:32 > 0:05:36She was moving in that direction, but what she was doing was dangerous.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39It's her responsibility. Nobody else's.
0:05:39 > 0:05:45We've got to get this message across that having an addiction is an illness.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48It needs to be treated just like any other illness.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52And until we adopt that attitude in this country, we're not going to get anywhere.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56Whatever anyone could've done for Amy,
0:05:56 > 0:06:00now one thing is for sure - no-one can do anything. She's dead.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03But there's probably millions of other people suffering on the same path,
0:06:03 > 0:06:05loads of people that are going to die
0:06:05 > 0:06:09if they don't stop taking drugs and drinking, when it ain't necessary.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13It's difficult for the individual, it's difficult for the family, it's detrimental for society,
0:06:13 > 0:06:15and it's completely unnecessary, cos there is a solution.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25We met and we were like, "Oh, we're going to change the world!
0:06:25 > 0:06:29"We're going to do this, we're going to have a TV show! Wow!"
0:06:29 > 0:06:31And within a year, we had a TV show.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34So what if I do a brief dance for some broccoli?
0:06:35 > 0:06:39'Me and Martino had a half-arse, hair-brained production company
0:06:39 > 0:06:41'back when I was a junkie.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44'This poor sod suffered horribly as my alcoholism and addiction
0:06:44 > 0:06:47'accelerated my loopy behaviour.'
0:06:47 > 0:06:50Complete nudity has got to be worth, I'm thinking, a cauliflower,
0:06:50 > 0:06:54because I've got tumorous testes, and they resemble a cauliflower.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58Wow! Everything we wanted, we did it! And we were like, what, 25?
0:07:01 > 0:07:05And then suddenly things didn't work any more,
0:07:05 > 0:07:07and the ideas didn't come any more.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14You were just gone all the time, taking drugs.
0:07:18 > 0:07:19I found this.
0:07:19 > 0:07:24I went to my grandma's house where I'd hidden it away
0:07:24 > 0:07:28just because it was one of those things that I just never wanted to see again.
0:07:29 > 0:07:30I remember that flat.
0:07:33 > 0:07:34What a little junkie.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41This is the thing where I know it's a disease.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44Whenever I see it, it doesn't matter that I've sat there
0:07:44 > 0:07:47in that flat in Hackney and now I'm in the Savoy Hotel,
0:07:47 > 0:07:49I'm jealous of me then.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00We were just completely lost.
0:08:00 > 0:08:05We started being afraid of the fact that you could die.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07And I remember it being eight o'clock in the morning
0:08:07 > 0:08:10and I remember drinking a bottle of gin.
0:08:10 > 0:08:14That morning you woke up and you're like, "I've got to drink this, I've got to take this."
0:08:14 > 0:08:16And exploded everybody's life in one moment.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18They sacked you as a result of that,
0:08:18 > 0:08:21and I know you lost your flat where you lived in Bethnal Green
0:08:21 > 0:08:23cos you couldn't afford to pay for it any more.
0:08:23 > 0:08:27And those consequences of my actions, you know, of which there were,
0:08:27 > 0:08:29you know, there's sort of so many, so many that I just...
0:08:29 > 0:08:32People, you know, like what my mum would have gone through,
0:08:32 > 0:08:35what loads of... I put my friends all through so much.
0:08:35 > 0:08:39You've got no bridge to dealing with
0:08:39 > 0:08:43those kind of problems because the only problem you can contend with is,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46I can't cope with being alive unless I have drugs.
0:08:46 > 0:08:47So what am I going to do?
0:08:47 > 0:08:49It's a greedy disease. It'll take everything.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52First it'll take your money, then it'll take your friends,
0:08:52 > 0:08:54then it'll take your family, your car, your house,
0:08:54 > 0:08:56then it's going to take bits of your body.
0:08:56 > 0:09:01And I used to, in the end, be scoring with people that had eyes missing, and limbs missing!
0:09:01 > 0:09:04It's... Take it until it takes your life.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06It'll take everything till it's the last thing left,
0:09:06 > 0:09:11and you'll gladly give it that rather than give up the drugs.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13I'm a recovering drug addict
0:09:13 > 0:09:17and know that drug addiction is an illness. It's a disease.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21He says he's not responsible for his own drug-taking. People do it because they want to.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23It comes from rich, Western kids,
0:09:23 > 0:09:25selfishly following their pleasures...
0:09:25 > 0:09:28- Russell Brand, I think you're being called a selfish kid there. - He certainly is.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30Are you responsible for your actions or are you not?
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Do you take drugs because you have to or because you want to?
0:09:33 > 0:09:37- There is such a thing as society, Peter.- People of course are responsible for their actions.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40- You're responsible for writing for a bigoted newspaper. - LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:09:40 > 0:09:42Are you responsible for your own actions?
0:09:47 > 0:09:51I understand people who don't regard it as a disease, even people like Peter Hitchens.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55Because drug addicts are extremely annoying people to be around.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59They're selfish, impatient, egotistical, self-destructive, demanding.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01Total pains in the arse.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05Here I am with one now, my mate, Paul.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11I use many, many different drugs, different substances, you know.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13What like?
0:10:13 > 0:10:18Cannabis, amphetamine, speed, cocaine, LSD, ecstasy,
0:10:18 > 0:10:21crack cocaine, heroin, Valium...
0:10:21 > 0:10:23What did you do at the weekends?
0:10:23 > 0:10:27..Amitryptaline, you know, painkillers, prescribed, unprescribed, legal, illegal...
0:10:27 > 0:10:31All right, I get the picture. I'm sorry I asked. When did you...?
0:10:31 > 0:10:35'He now spends a lot of time helping other addicts,
0:10:35 > 0:10:40'so I asked him to take me to meet Nathan, a young lad suffering from the disease.'
0:10:40 > 0:10:44And why are you spending time with this Nathan character?
0:10:44 > 0:10:47He's 23, you know, which, you know, is pretty young.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50He's an example of how addiction runs riot in his family.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54Give me a cuddle before we start so we're on the right track. Nathan.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58I've been in care since I was three, but grew up with my auntie.
0:10:58 > 0:11:03- Erm, didn't have my own mum and dad in my life.- Why?
0:11:03 > 0:11:08Well, they both OD'd on heroin. So, fucking... Yeah.
0:11:08 > 0:11:13- That's heavy. - Yeah, it is, mate, yeah. Definitely. It's been a big burden on my life.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16- I think about it every day of my life, to be honest. - Do you?- Yeah. Definitely.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19I probably moved on average every three months while I was in care,
0:11:19 > 0:11:21and that happened for about two years.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24I'd say I think I moved, I think it was something like
0:11:24 > 0:11:28- 23 times I've counted, over a three-year period. - No stability.
0:11:28 > 0:11:32You weren't taking drugs because it was fun or something?
0:11:32 > 0:11:38What it was more about, for me, was taking drugs because it was basically...
0:11:38 > 0:11:41I didn't have, like I say, I didn't have a family, did I? I was on my own.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44I was on my own. And the drug was there for me.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47That drug was there for me when I was down.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49That drug was there for me when I had no food in my kitchen.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53That drug was there for me when I had nothing to wash my clothes with,
0:11:53 > 0:11:56so, you know what, if I was depressed, I'd do some drugs.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58If I was ill, I'd do some drugs.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01If I had no-one to speak to, I'd do some drugs.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03It was there for me for everything, Russell.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06We all have different stories, don't we? But all of us,
0:12:06 > 0:12:09everyone you talk to will say there's a sense of sadness inside,
0:12:09 > 0:12:14- a thing that you're trying to fill up with drugs, eh? - Yeah, it's always there.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16You'll never get rid of it by doing drugs.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19It might work for the start, but that feeling inside,
0:12:19 > 0:12:22I still have it now, to be honest, Russell, mate.
0:12:22 > 0:12:27Is there something Nathan and I have in common that explains why we both became addicts?
0:12:27 > 0:12:32Is it an illness, or are me and Nathan and homeless junkies
0:12:32 > 0:12:35just a bunch of spoiled, selfish millionaires?
0:12:35 > 0:12:39- You're called Professor David Nutt? - That's my name. - That's an amazing name.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42Yeah, well, what else could I be other than a psychiatrist?
0:12:42 > 0:12:43A brain scientist?
0:12:43 > 0:12:46I don't think... Other than a character in Cluedo.
0:12:46 > 0:12:50- Professor Nutt in the lab with a brain scanner. - That's a good one!
0:12:50 > 0:12:55To get some professional and expert insight, I visited the man I call the nutty professor.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59He used to be a government drug tsar - a bloody stupid term.
0:12:59 > 0:13:04He researches addiction here at Imperial College, London.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06We're doing the most sophisticated study ever done on addiction.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09- How? - Because what we're doing,
0:13:09 > 0:13:14is we're taking people with addictions to alcohol or heroin
0:13:14 > 0:13:20or cocaine, and we're scanning them in that scanner to understand
0:13:20 > 0:13:23what's different about their brain compared with other people.
0:13:23 > 0:13:29Say, like, Peter Hitchens, the journalist, and a lot of people
0:13:29 > 0:13:33I think believe that addiction is a thing that people just sort of do...
0:13:33 > 0:13:37People just take drugs for a laugh, because they're weak, like.
0:13:37 > 0:13:43And obviously I don't think that, but is there neurological or at least psychiatric evidence
0:13:43 > 0:13:46that addiction is a legitimate condition?
0:13:46 > 0:13:50Unquestionably addiction has got something to do with the brain.
0:13:50 > 0:13:55Most people take drugs. Almost everyone in this country drinks alcohol at some point in their life,
0:13:55 > 0:13:58but only 10% get addicted. And that 10% are different.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00And they're different because their brain is different.
0:14:00 > 0:14:06Our experience tells us addiction occurs usually through one of three things.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08One is that people get stressed.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11When you're stressed, you activate parts of your brain.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13I've just shown it up here.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15This part of the brain here, which we call the amygdala.
0:14:15 > 0:14:20- The amygdala reacts to stress. - Exactly. And in some people it reacts excessively to stress.
0:14:20 > 0:14:22And we know that drugs like alcohol can dampen that down.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25And so many people become dependent on alcohol
0:14:25 > 0:14:28because they use it to reduce stress.
0:14:28 > 0:14:30The second is that people get pleasure,
0:14:30 > 0:14:33they start to do something which is enjoyable.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35And then they start to take the drug to reinforce that.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39That comes from another part of the brain. That comes from this part here.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42It's an area of the brain which has a lot of the transmitter called dopamine.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45Dopamine gets you going in the mornings.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48If your dopamine's not working, then you're stiff and flat.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50And the third is that some people are just very impulsive.
0:14:50 > 0:14:54Impulsivity is actually a very straightforward behaviour
0:14:54 > 0:14:56which we can model in animals, for instance.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59And it turns out that when you have a very impulsive rat,
0:14:59 > 0:15:02it has alterations in the dopamine system in the brain.
0:15:02 > 0:15:08What you do is you tell them that when a light comes on they will get a reward if they push a lever.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12- Light goes on, five second wait, food.- The impulsive rat can't wait for five seconds.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15What, it just goes, "Fucking hell! Where's my reward?"
0:15:15 > 0:15:18- Exactly. - "It's been three seconds!"
0:15:18 > 0:15:21There you go. And you can find that about 10% of rats are very impulsive.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25And those rats are interesting because they like cocaine.
0:15:25 > 0:15:28- Mmm.- You give them cocaine, they take a lot more than the other rats
0:15:28 > 0:15:31because they have a deficiency of dopamine.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35They have an inherent deficiency of dopamine which this cocaine redresses?
0:15:35 > 0:15:38Exactly. So it fits exactly with the human situation.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40The thing is, when you said that thing,
0:15:40 > 0:15:43it made me laugh out of identification. I know that like,
0:15:43 > 0:15:46I remember from just when I was a kid, if someone goes like,
0:15:46 > 0:15:49"Look, you've just got to wait a little while, Russell,"
0:15:49 > 0:15:53- I'd be, "No way!"- Yes. - Like it was inconceivable to me to do that, like a pain,
0:15:53 > 0:15:56like a roaring, existential pain that I would not tolerate.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02'And it's that rat-like reaction to drugs
0:16:02 > 0:16:06'that makes me one of the 10% of the population that cannot use them recreationally.'
0:16:06 > 0:16:10# Time takes a cigarette
0:16:10 > 0:16:12# Puts it in your mouth... #
0:16:12 > 0:16:16'After 11 years of using drugs, my life was in chaos.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19'I was broke, in debt and unemployable.
0:16:21 > 0:16:27'Fortunately, I met John Noel, who physically forced me to go to rehab. There he is, look!'
0:16:27 > 0:16:28I'm tired and I'm in a bad mood.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32But you kept chucking that ball against my office wall,
0:16:32 > 0:16:36and I thought, "He's going to be a real annoying fucker to work with."
0:16:36 > 0:16:38Yeah? "But he's good."
0:16:38 > 0:16:42And you were wrong about the first thing, but you were right about the second.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44And I guess it was your Christmas party
0:16:44 > 0:16:48and I was using gear in the toilet, like I was over the foil and everything.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51"What's that, mate? Oh, fucking hell. Is that heroin?
0:16:51 > 0:16:54- "Oh, you've got a bit of a problem, ain't you?" - You were on a bit of a roundabout.
0:16:54 > 0:16:59Yeah. Cos I couldn't stop. I knew I couldn't stop. I didn't want to stop, really.
0:16:59 > 0:17:04Then we ganged up on you, didn't we? You didn't then have a choice.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08I remember, this is the very chair, actually, that I was sat in,
0:17:08 > 0:17:10and, like, you know, getting that information.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12"You're a drug addict. It's serious for you.
0:17:12 > 0:17:16"And if you don't stop now, in six months' time you're going to be dead,
0:17:16 > 0:17:18"in prison, or in a lunatic asylum.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20"Do you want to come into treatment?" I went, "No way!"
0:17:20 > 0:17:23And you went, "Fuck that, you're going!" And that was it.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26That was it, that was the decision made.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29So you didn't really have much of a choice.
0:17:29 > 0:17:32There weren't many options for you,
0:17:32 > 0:17:35except getting on the train to Bury St Edmunds.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43Focus 12 is a charity rehab.
0:17:43 > 0:17:47I first entered this building in December 2002, on Friday the 13th.
0:17:47 > 0:17:48Ooh, spooky.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50Chip Somers, the man who runs it,
0:17:50 > 0:17:53told me the whole treatment process would take seven weeks.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57That was a lie, it actually took twelve. During this three months of hell,
0:17:57 > 0:18:01they tricked me into not using or drinking, one day at a time.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03I have your photograph from admission.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05You can see quite clearly that you're stoned.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07This is a person on drugs.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10- Yes.- And, dare I say it, gorgeous.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12No. I think you look rather gaunt and haggard, actually.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15- I do, look at my little eye holes. - You've got very hooded eyes.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17RUSSELL LAUGHS
0:18:17 > 0:18:20- HE READS:- "Arrived confused, vulnerable, erratic,
0:18:20 > 0:18:22"found it hard to stick to a timetable." Still happening.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24You had gone into a life of dependency,
0:18:24 > 0:18:29and if you'd carried on like that, the end result of that lifestyle
0:18:29 > 0:18:32is really an absolutely shit existence.
0:18:32 > 0:18:37Although Chip may look like a responsible bureaucrat now,
0:18:37 > 0:18:38he is in fact a junkie.
0:18:39 > 0:18:43He was a heroin addict for 18 years, always in and out of prison,
0:18:43 > 0:18:48homeless for seven years, and three times ended up on a life-support machine.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51I think there's a real attitude that you got yourself into this,
0:18:51 > 0:18:55you know, it's your choice, you got yourself into it, pay the price.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58Actually there's not a single person who walks through that door
0:18:58 > 0:19:02who set out to be destroyed the way they are,
0:19:02 > 0:19:04to become addicted and dependent.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08But whatever sort of joking around that you did,
0:19:08 > 0:19:12there was within you a real drive. You wanted to get better.
0:19:12 > 0:19:17So this is the group room. You come in in the morning and have to write your daily diary.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21There's a rota and stuff, like, people have to do jobs and contribute.
0:19:21 > 0:19:27And that's what a lot of it is, I think it's learning again to behave socially and responsibly.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30I hated it. I hated having to, like,
0:19:30 > 0:19:33"Right you've got to do this cleaning or something today." Fuck off!
0:19:33 > 0:19:36But it's really good for you to learn them basic things.
0:19:36 > 0:19:40This garden's a lot better than when I was here as well.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43Oh! Drug addicts there. Don't film them. Don't want their anonymity compromised.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46But a glance tells you we're talking about scum of the earth.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54It's weird, cos you know they only want to help you,
0:19:54 > 0:19:57but, like, you still sort of see them as adversaries,
0:19:57 > 0:20:00cos really all you want to do is drink and take drugs.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03The last thing you want to do is, like go, "I feel lonely and sad
0:20:03 > 0:20:06"and I don't know how to talk to people and I'm ANGRY and HURT."
0:20:06 > 0:20:08And all they want to do is talk about that stuff.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11The whole time they're bringing that up consistently.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14And so it's like someone prodding you in the most painful place
0:20:14 > 0:20:16because you have to learn to deal with that stuff
0:20:16 > 0:20:19cos if you don't, the only other solution is to drink or take drugs.
0:20:19 > 0:20:20That's the ONLY solution.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24This is the arse end of the mollycoddling.
0:20:24 > 0:20:29Things like...art therapy. Oh, yeah, they still do art therapy here.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35They say to you, "Give examples of how drug addiction
0:20:35 > 0:20:38"and alcoholism and behaviour has hurt other people."
0:20:38 > 0:20:43And you sort of go, "No, probably never." And then you go, "Oh, no! My mum!"
0:20:43 > 0:20:47I learned the impact of my addiction on myself,
0:20:47 > 0:20:51the impact of my addiction on the people that I love,
0:20:51 > 0:20:55and the likely consequences of my continual using.
0:20:55 > 0:20:56I understood that for the first time.
0:21:00 > 0:21:06This very spot was where I sat when I, like, after 12 weeks, I would graduate here.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09I was terrified of leaving, of going back to London.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13So grateful and happy and overwhelmed by...
0:21:13 > 0:21:15Cos it was for me, when you're a drug addict
0:21:15 > 0:21:17the idea of not taking drugs is inconceivable.
0:21:17 > 0:21:22It's like such a profound spiritual change that takes place because...
0:21:24 > 0:21:27..you're like...starting to integrate as a human being.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30All these things that you're not dealing with,
0:21:30 > 0:21:34like initially come to the surface, and it's terrifying and unsettling and awful,
0:21:34 > 0:21:39but once, you know, it's the beginning of a lifelong journey of doing things differently.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44Staying clean one day at a time works for me.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47But the problem for addicts in Britain today is that
0:21:47 > 0:21:51it's a treatment that over 90% of sufferers cannot get access to.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53There aren't enough rehabilitation places.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01I don't think abstinence treatment is really regarded very highly.
0:22:01 > 0:22:05I think it's seen as the kind of end-of-the-road for very extreme cases,
0:22:05 > 0:22:09because the argument is very much that, you know, we have a response to the drug problem.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11It's called methadone.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16Addicts like these at Focus 12 have been prescribed the legal drug methadone for years,
0:22:16 > 0:22:19to take every day as a heroin substitute.
0:22:19 > 0:22:24About ten years ago it became the Government's main method of treating addicts.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27What the Government hoped was, if they gave addicts methadone,
0:22:27 > 0:22:30they'd stop committing crime to get money for drugs.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34And they'd also stop sharing needles and getting HIV, which is a nice idea.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36Also, it's probably cheaper.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39I was on methadone for 15 years.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42Bloody hell, mate. That's a long time, innit?
0:22:42 > 0:22:45It's meant to reduce crime and it's meant to reduce your addiction,
0:22:45 > 0:22:49but come on, I'm an addict, so I abuse that just as much as you abuse drugs.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52It's harmful, if not more harmful, in my opinion.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54- Why?- Methadone is worse.- Why?
0:22:54 > 0:22:58It's a lot worse. Harder to come off, it's more addictive, it gets into you, it rots you away.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01It costs...whatever, like a pittance, they say.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04But it costs more money and it's not dealing with the problem.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06You got a place like this what deals with it and deals with us.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10Methadone, you go to a chemist, they go, "Here you are, see you later," and you walk out.
0:23:10 > 0:23:11What help's that for an addict?
0:23:11 > 0:23:15Over the last ten years, the argument has been put forward
0:23:15 > 0:23:19by the National Treatment Agency that we are being successful.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22We are keeping people off the streets.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25We are maintaining them stably on methadone.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28What are you going to do with every single addict that comes along,
0:23:28 > 0:23:30just park them on methadone?
0:23:30 > 0:23:32And it doesn't understand addiction, either.
0:23:32 > 0:23:36If you're an addict or an alcoholic, you want to get completely stoned.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39You want to get completely wrecked. You don't want to be stable.
0:23:39 > 0:23:44Nobody starts on a piss-up to get stable. They...
0:23:44 > 0:23:48I am going to get so fucking stable tonight!
0:23:48 > 0:23:51I'm going to sit there and flatline!
0:23:51 > 0:23:53- They want to get wrecked.- Yeah.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56So to give them enough drugs, you either give them
0:23:56 > 0:23:59enough drugs to get wrecked, which is just ridiculous.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02Or you don't give them enough, and they use on top.
0:24:02 > 0:24:08So, you know... And why are you colluding with something that is such an incredibly poor life decision?
0:24:08 > 0:24:12On methadone you've got no chance of an outcome other than somebody still on methadone.
0:24:12 > 0:24:17But why should we trust Chip Somers? Remember those pictures of him doing heroin?
0:24:17 > 0:24:19He runs a rehab and is probably biased.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26Let's speak to someone who really believes in methadone-based treatment.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28A proper doctor who prescribes it.
0:24:28 > 0:24:31This is the technique that treats 90% of Britain's junkies.
0:24:33 > 0:24:38Clare Gerada is a GP, and a Chair of the Royal Council of General Practitioners.
0:24:38 > 0:24:44She's considered an expert in drug treatment. She describes methadone as the gold standard.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49I'm assuming this woman's a recovering drug addict you gave the job out of some sort of pity.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51Is that how it works?
0:24:51 > 0:24:55This woman, she's still using intravenous drugs, that's obvious.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57Well, it's lovely seeing you.
0:24:57 > 0:24:59I don't think I've ever had anyone like yourself
0:24:59 > 0:25:00in this consulting room.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03You have! Junkies. That's all you've had in here.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05I do see a lot of patients who are drug users.
0:25:05 > 0:25:09- Do you?- A lot of patients, and have done over the years.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12And I know you talk about abstinence. That's absolutely fine.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14But I think actually...
0:25:14 > 0:25:20Some patients, the vast majority of mine who are on methadone, do very, very well.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23Methadone's a drug. If you're on methadone, you're on drugs.
0:25:23 > 0:25:29You know, so for me it's like just rearranging the furniture on the Titanic.
0:25:29 > 0:25:31- But can I ask you a question?- Yeah.
0:25:31 > 0:25:35Would you say the same thing about someone on insulin for diabetes?
0:25:35 > 0:25:39Or someone on an anti-hypertensive treatment for high blood pressure?
0:25:39 > 0:25:43Why is it that we pick out a medicine that's used to treat a disease?
0:25:43 > 0:25:48I also look after folk who have been damaged from the day they left their mother's womb,
0:25:48 > 0:25:52damaged psychologically, damaged physically, damaged emotionally,
0:25:52 > 0:25:59who end up making no friends, who drift into crime at a young age and then drift into drugs.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02And for those patients, actually they do need to be on something
0:26:02 > 0:26:07long enough, secure enough to sort all the rest of the bits out.
0:26:07 > 0:26:09They don't have the psychological awareness,
0:26:09 > 0:26:13they don't have the support in order to do what you've done,
0:26:13 > 0:26:15which is make an abstinence-based recovery.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17I completely disagree with you, Doctor.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20What I really want to be clear about is this not an attack on you as a...
0:26:20 > 0:26:23- Can I just challenge you? - Not at the moment. Let me carry on talking.
0:26:23 > 0:26:27There's an institutionalised mentality around the treatment of addiction
0:26:27 > 0:26:30that is not helpful to addicts cos you're not addressing the underlying problem.
0:26:30 > 0:26:32I'm not saying you as an individual. You're doing a really good job.
0:26:32 > 0:26:37I'm saying there needs to be an honest debate, an honest exchange of information,
0:26:37 > 0:26:40and that the objective has to be, I think, from the origin of the treatment,
0:26:40 > 0:26:43to get people dependence-free. So yes, methadone is going to be a part of that.
0:26:43 > 0:26:45But you were saying, "They don't have the layers of support."
0:26:45 > 0:26:49Why don't they have the layers of support? Why is there not funding for the layers of support?
0:26:49 > 0:26:54I would love everybody to live drug-free lives on nothing.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58But I've been a GP long enough to know that that's not possible.
0:26:58 > 0:27:02A large number of patients still need opiate substitution treatment
0:27:02 > 0:27:07whilst they sort out all the bits that were missing as they were growing up, and that takes time.
0:27:07 > 0:27:10It's like putting a plaster around a broken leg.
0:27:10 > 0:27:13You put that plaster around it so that it can heal underneath.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16It's like putting a plaster around a broken soul, is what it's like doing.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18I'm not disputing what you're saying,
0:27:18 > 0:27:22I'm just saying that we have to be more ambitious, more compassionate,
0:27:22 > 0:27:25that we need to address this problem more quickly.
0:27:25 > 0:27:29And I completely disagree with you. I've seen extraordinary turns,
0:27:29 > 0:27:31people turn their lives around in extraordinary ways.
0:27:31 > 0:27:35And I believe in people. I believe in the possibility of change.
0:27:35 > 0:27:39As long as people are taking methadone they're not going to address those problems.
0:27:39 > 0:27:42I think that's very patronising. I think that is so...
0:27:42 > 0:27:45What, that people on methadone cannot address their problems?
0:27:45 > 0:27:48- I think it's so patronising to make...- I think it's patronising for you to say that,
0:27:48 > 0:27:50cos you're not a drug addict, are you?
0:27:50 > 0:27:54It don't make no difference to me, the money, the fame, the power, the sex, the women.
0:27:54 > 0:27:56None of it. I'd rather be a drug addict.
0:27:56 > 0:28:00If I didn't have my programme, I'd be a drug addict. Today. Like that.
0:28:00 > 0:28:04In a second. I'd walk out. I know how to score around here. Like, I'd do it gladly.
0:28:04 > 0:28:07And the reason I DON'T do it is because of the things I'm talking to you about,
0:28:07 > 0:28:11and I know that with methadone I'd be using on top, like most of the drug addicts I know are.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14I'm not being patronising. I'm listening to you on the stuff you know about,
0:28:14 > 0:28:16but not on the stuff you don't.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19I continue to follow up my patients, I continue to see them,
0:28:19 > 0:28:24and to say that methadone destroys their soul or whatever the comment you made, I think it...
0:28:24 > 0:28:28This doesn't give them access to the solution that they require.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31But it doesn't deter them from the solution that they require.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34- I think it does.- OK. Then we have to agree to disagree.
0:28:37 > 0:28:42Before I spoke to that GP, I met a junkie in the toilet drinking booze.
0:28:42 > 0:28:47Then I saw her again as I came out. This woman is on methadone, is it working for her?
0:28:47 > 0:28:50I see you're drinking some Kestrel there.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53- Yeah, drink every day. - Do you take any other drugs?
0:28:53 > 0:28:55Not going to lie, I smoke a bit of crack now and again,
0:28:55 > 0:28:58- but I was a heroin user... - You on a scrip?
0:28:58 > 0:29:01Yeah, I just went on a scrip last month.
0:29:01 > 0:29:03What's it like to take...
0:29:03 > 0:29:06They put me on 80ml, but in the last month I've come down to 40.
0:29:06 > 0:29:10- It's easy to come off them, but it's very hard to stay off them. - It's really hard to stay stopped.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13I think you shouldn't have anything at all. Like not methadone...
0:29:13 > 0:29:18- Nah, no methadone, no nothing. - None of this.- No, none of this.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20- I wonder if you'd be... - But you know what?
0:29:20 > 0:29:23The only thing is, like, see if people actually gave you the help
0:29:23 > 0:29:26after you stopped taking the methadone and stopped doing everything,
0:29:26 > 0:29:29rather than just stop prescribing you methadone and that's it basically,
0:29:29 > 0:29:32don't come and see me any more.
0:29:32 > 0:29:36I cannae sit in the same company I sit in every day without being drunk
0:29:36 > 0:29:38or like... I don't get high from much, now.
0:29:38 > 0:29:44I'm not going to lie, like maybe if I get a little bit of money I'll buy crack, but that's it.
0:29:45 > 0:29:49For me, this argument is at the heart of improving treatment for addicts.
0:29:49 > 0:29:53Substituting illegal street drugs with government-backed legal drugs like methadone
0:29:53 > 0:29:55is not moving addicts on.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00In 12 years I've been to 33 funerals
0:30:00 > 0:30:03of either my friends or people who've worked for me.
0:30:03 > 0:30:09Former junkie Mark Johnson campaigns to persuade people that methadone doesn't work.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12He uses shocking photographs of addicts
0:30:12 > 0:30:15who are all using on top of their methadone prescription
0:30:15 > 0:30:17to make this point.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21Is this an illness? And I think after seeing an image, you know,
0:30:21 > 0:30:23show the absolute naked truth of what people do
0:30:23 > 0:30:27to change how they feel, the extremities that they go,
0:30:27 > 0:30:30I don't think can leave you with the same preconceptions.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33- That's pretty brutal, innit?- Yeah.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36Intravenous drug use in the neck, there.
0:30:36 > 0:30:40- Yeah. That's a 22-year-old, seven months pregnant girl. - Oh, no! That's not good.
0:30:40 > 0:30:44Had a history of injecting in her groin.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47Ohhh. Why's this? Cos she can't use her veins in her arms and legs any more?
0:30:47 > 0:30:52All her veins are gone, yeah, at 22. Yeah, she's used since she was 13, so...
0:30:56 > 0:31:02That's somebody's legs who's been using for about 30 years.
0:31:02 > 0:31:06Mark wants me to meet two of the women he's been photographing.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08What are their names, mate?
0:31:08 > 0:31:10Suzanne and Karen.
0:31:10 > 0:31:13Both women struggle with lives dominated by crack and heroin use,
0:31:13 > 0:31:18as well as the methadone they've been prescribed for years.
0:31:18 > 0:31:19When I went to get help,
0:31:19 > 0:31:21I didn't want to go into a methadone programme.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24To me it's like they're not using it for what it's useful for.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26It's used to help you get off of heroin, you understand me?
0:31:26 > 0:31:29Not to stabilise you for in 20 years' time you're still taking methadone
0:31:29 > 0:31:32because you're not ready to come off of it.
0:31:32 > 0:31:34You'll never be ready to come off of it.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37I believe in abstinence-based recovery myself, cos it's what's worked for me.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40I've never tried any type of recovery so I...
0:31:40 > 0:31:43What's stopping you from going to rehab right now, then?
0:31:43 > 0:31:47Me, basically. Yeah. That's the only thing that's stopping me, is me.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50I'd love to come off of methadone and heroin.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53I hate being on methadone and heroin. I like to smoke crack. I'm not going to lie.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56That's going to be hard for me to stop.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59- Then why don't you stop, then? - I am trying to stop,
0:31:59 > 0:32:03but it's just taken so long with the, like, funding and the system.
0:32:03 > 0:32:05I don't think you can have any drugs. Either of you.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08Cos I think that you've both got addictive tendencies
0:32:08 > 0:32:11and if you take any drugs at all you won't be able to control it.
0:32:11 > 0:32:16That's £25 worth me and Karen have bought. You can open it. It doesn't bother me.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19- That's half of £25 worth. - Fucking hell.
0:32:19 > 0:32:24I mean, I think I was probably at my worst doing 100 quid a day.
0:32:24 > 0:32:27- Is that all? - Yeah, I was lucky, you know?
0:32:28 > 0:32:30Cor, I've not seen this for a while.
0:32:30 > 0:32:34It's still like, after all these years, after nine and a half years...
0:32:34 > 0:32:38- You get feelings. - It makes me feel like I want to cry. Like a girlfriend or something.
0:32:38 > 0:32:40It's not making you edgy though, is it?
0:32:40 > 0:32:44- It's making me a little bit excited. - Yeah.- A little bit.
0:32:44 > 0:32:46You know that you ain't going to go back.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48No, I don't know that, actually.
0:32:49 > 0:32:53I hate heroin. I want to stop that.
0:32:53 > 0:32:56I always think to myself that I'm going to have to kind of be railroaded into it
0:32:56 > 0:33:00cos I know that if I give myself a chance, I'll talk myself out of it.
0:33:00 > 0:33:02There's always a reason to carrying on taking drugs.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04No. Not so much that. No, no. Not so much that.
0:33:04 > 0:33:06I'm saying like, just responsibilities.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08I've got, like I've got a dog. Erm, no, seriously.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10He came to detox with me the last time.
0:33:10 > 0:33:12- It's not an excuse, but... - Mate, it is a fuckin' excuse.
0:33:12 > 0:33:15No, because I can take him with me so how's that an excuse?
0:33:15 > 0:33:18I'm just saying that he's my main stumbling block.
0:33:18 > 0:33:21I've sat for seven months in the programme...
0:33:21 > 0:33:23- What's his name? - Escobar.- Escobar?- Esky.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25What kind of dog is Escobar?
0:33:25 > 0:33:27- He's a Staffordshire bull terrier. - He sounds like an arsehole.
0:33:27 > 0:33:32He's a part Staff, part demon-dog. But he's my baby. He's a sweetie.
0:33:32 > 0:33:36We're making a documentary about Karen. She's got a very serious dog problem.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38- Yeah.- Oh, she just can't give up the dog!
0:33:38 > 0:33:41One day at a time away from the... You ain't got a dog problem. You've got a drug problem.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43So, I think let's deal with the drug problem.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46- I think the dog problem'll take care of itself.- Yeah.
0:33:46 > 0:33:50I'm not against the idea. I really am not.
0:33:50 > 0:33:53I just... Yeah, I don't know why I haven't done it. I kind of think....
0:33:53 > 0:33:56Because you're a drug addict and it's really, really hard to stop taking drugs.
0:33:56 > 0:33:58I keep telling myself, what's the worst that could happen?
0:33:58 > 0:34:01I'll come out, I get into trouble again so I've lost nothing anyway.
0:34:01 > 0:34:05- That's true.- So I might as well have a go because...
0:34:05 > 0:34:09- because I might as well.- Exactly. Also, don't forget the upside.
0:34:09 > 0:34:14The upside is that you have tremendous potential as a human being that you could realise.
0:34:14 > 0:34:18And somewhere in you, you know that, and recognise it.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21And I know that that can be frightening,
0:34:21 > 0:34:24but this is an opportunity to, with support, start to access that.
0:34:24 > 0:34:28- When could you go? - Oh, fuck! - RUSSELL LAUGHS
0:34:28 > 0:34:31Wouldn't it be heartening if then we went, "Karen's now gone six months clean
0:34:31 > 0:34:35"and she's got a tentative job, and whilst it isn't always easy, she's making incredible progress."
0:34:35 > 0:34:38It might be, "Nah, Karen just didn't fucking show up."
0:34:38 > 0:34:41And that's like, really, really likely.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44But like, she made me feel very, very hopeful.
0:34:44 > 0:34:48Hanging out with them two, it felt like something you remember in such a powerful way.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50So it's not like I felt like,
0:34:50 > 0:34:55"Oh, I'm going to fuck my life off and live here and do gear with these two."
0:34:55 > 0:34:58But it's more attractive than you would think.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01It's more attractive than you would think.
0:35:01 > 0:35:06What I mostly felt was titillation, stimulation, attraction, excitement.
0:35:06 > 0:35:09Only now do I think, "Wow, how lucky I am that
0:35:09 > 0:35:14"I don't have to live my life defined by the acquiring and using of drugs."
0:35:18 > 0:35:23I believe that people like me, with the disease of addiction, have to, one day at a time,
0:35:23 > 0:35:28abstain from all substances, including methadone or prescription drugs.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31Otherwise we don't have the opportunity to address the internal incentives
0:35:31 > 0:35:34that are propelling us towards drug and alcohol use.
0:35:35 > 0:35:39Conveniently, I found an expert who thinks exactly like me.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42Professor Neil McKeganey is a world authority,
0:35:42 > 0:35:45recently given an award by the World Forum Against Drugs
0:35:45 > 0:35:50for his research on "A better drugs policy for the 21st century".
0:35:50 > 0:35:53We asked addicts, "What do you want to get out of treatment?"
0:35:53 > 0:35:56And predominantly they said, "We want to become drug-free."
0:35:56 > 0:35:59When I started to tell people that was their answer,
0:35:59 > 0:36:04that was regarded as an incredibly unwelcome piece of research.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07- Was it?!- Nobody in the world of treatment wanted to hear that predominantly
0:36:07 > 0:36:10addicts in treatment wanted to come off the drugs.
0:36:10 > 0:36:13- Why?- Because I think that set a challenge to them.
0:36:13 > 0:36:16Are you helping them to become drug free?
0:36:16 > 0:36:18Or are you just making another drug available to them?
0:36:18 > 0:36:22When we follow people up and we ask the question, "Well, if the majority want
0:36:22 > 0:36:25"to become drug free, how many actually do become drug free
0:36:25 > 0:36:28"on the basis of the treatment which they were given?"
0:36:28 > 0:36:29- How many do?- It was tiny.
0:36:29 > 0:36:32After nearly three years of treatment, it wasn't even
0:36:32 > 0:36:37in double figures. So over 90% were still dependent on the drugs
0:36:37 > 0:36:39that they had been dependent on when they'd come forward
0:36:39 > 0:36:42for treatment only now we'd added methadone into the mix as well.
0:36:42 > 0:36:44So they were dependent on an additional drug.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47In fact the number of people who came off drugs after three years' treatment
0:36:47 > 0:36:49was lower than would have been the case had
0:36:49 > 0:36:51they had no treatment at all.
0:36:51 > 0:36:54It's literally pointless. That's almost a definition of pointlessness.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57They might as well have took the money and the methadone and thrown it out of a window.
0:36:57 > 0:37:02- It would have the same impact. - Somebody has got to challenge that orthodoxy that actually says
0:37:02 > 0:37:04it's OK to deliver treatments which
0:37:04 > 0:37:07we know are not working because at the end of the day, who really
0:37:07 > 0:37:09cares that much anyway? Cos they're just drug addicts.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12I spoke to one of the UK's leading
0:37:12 > 0:37:14proponents of the methadone programme and he said to me,
0:37:14 > 0:37:18"Neil, if my daughter was a heroin addict,
0:37:18 > 0:37:22"I would do everything and some to get her into a residential rehab.
0:37:22 > 0:37:24"I would not prescribe her with methadone."
0:37:24 > 0:37:28- That's disgraceful.- And I felt all you're saying then is that
0:37:28 > 0:37:31the person that you would care about you know what you would get.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34The people who you care less for, they get something different.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43Neil McKeganey just reinforced for me
0:37:43 > 0:37:45the importance of getting an addict into rehab.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47Since I met Karen, I've stayed in touch with her
0:37:47 > 0:37:51and talked about rehab, at Focus 12 with Chip.
0:37:51 > 0:37:53According to my lovely mum, some lunatic woman who I happened to live in
0:37:53 > 0:37:57for nine months, that was the moment where everything changed for me.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59You're happy I went into Focus, in't you, Mum?
0:37:59 > 0:38:01What was it like when I was a drug addict?
0:38:01 > 0:38:03Well, you were helpless.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05You want your child to be happy,
0:38:05 > 0:38:09and they're depressed and you looked so ill,
0:38:09 > 0:38:13skinny, not particularly clean,
0:38:13 > 0:38:16had no pride in your appearance or how you lived.
0:38:16 > 0:38:19It's...it's heartbreaking as a mum when you've brought
0:38:19 > 0:38:23an innocent, beautiful little child into the world to see that happen.
0:38:23 > 0:38:29- Yeah. Ah...don't cry, will ya? - And on that bombshell...
0:38:29 > 0:38:32- Mum, I love you.- Ahh.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34I come round and I give her a quick cuddle to make her happy.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40Right, the... Every time I think about it,
0:38:40 > 0:38:45it just makes me...want to run away and just either use,
0:38:45 > 0:38:46or I dunno, just, like, you know.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50I can see a really beautiful woman.
0:38:50 > 0:38:56You've got beautiful hair, you've got lovely features. I can see it.
0:38:56 > 0:38:58It's a brilliant step
0:38:58 > 0:39:01and the most important thing is you've decided to take it.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07Hello. Is that Chip?
0:39:07 > 0:39:08- 'Yeah, hi. Is that Karen?' - It is. You all right?
0:39:08 > 0:39:13- 'I've been told you're interested in coming into treatment.'- Yeah, that is the plan.
0:39:13 > 0:39:15'How long have you been using for?'
0:39:15 > 0:39:20- Er...18 years. Yeah. - 'And what's your current sort of daily drug use?'
0:39:20 > 0:39:24Ah...methadone 90ml, about a gram of crack
0:39:24 > 0:39:26and about half a gram of heroin.
0:39:26 > 0:39:30- 'OK. So you're using a lot, aren't you?'- Mm.
0:39:30 > 0:39:33'So why do you wanna stop now?'
0:39:33 > 0:39:34Um, because I've had enough.
0:39:34 > 0:39:37The drugs don't do anything to me anyway.
0:39:37 > 0:39:41The methadone's just a pain in the arse. Myriad other reasons really.
0:39:41 > 0:39:42'Right.'
0:39:42 > 0:39:44Yeah. There are more reasons to stop than there are to continue.
0:39:44 > 0:39:46- There aren't any to continue so... - 'OK.'
0:39:46 > 0:39:49Apart from that I'm an idiot. So yeah.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52'So just relax a little bit.
0:39:52 > 0:39:54'There is light at the end of the tunnel.'
0:39:54 > 0:39:55Yeah. Could be a train coming though.
0:39:55 > 0:39:59'And we will guarantee you a place.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01- 'As soon as we can work it out between you and admissions.' - Lovely.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04OK, then. All right. Thanks very much. Nice to speak to you.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06Bye.
0:40:06 > 0:40:08- That was good. - Scary.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10Why? You feel all right?
0:40:10 > 0:40:13Yeah, yeah. I do.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16Two weeks is bloody quick. But yeah.
0:40:16 > 0:40:17- It is quick, innit? - I know.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22MUSIC: "Don't Look Back Into The Sun" by The Libertines
0:40:28 > 0:40:30One of the strongest arguments for rehab is that it takes
0:40:30 > 0:40:34the addicts out of the community where their lives are falling apart
0:40:34 > 0:40:37and gives them a breathing space to reassess and hopefully move on.
0:40:37 > 0:40:40# ..never come for you Uh-oh-oh-oh...
0:40:40 > 0:40:44Another place you'd think would be ideal to achieve that is Britain's prisons,
0:40:44 > 0:40:47because there are thousands of addicts locked up inside.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52Don't sniff me in that suspicious way! I've got nothing to be afraid of.
0:40:54 > 0:41:00Over 80% of the British prison population are addicts or have substance abuse issues,
0:41:00 > 0:41:04but only one in ten get any treatment other than methadone to break their habit.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08The Mount Prison in Hemel Hempstead, north London, is one place
0:41:08 > 0:41:11where prisoners get more than methadone.
0:41:11 > 0:41:14They run an abstinence programme inside.
0:41:14 > 0:41:20If we don't do anything with 'em while they're here, we're just going to lock the problem up
0:41:20 > 0:41:23and then release the problem, we'll just create more victims.
0:41:23 > 0:41:25There will be constant re-offending
0:41:25 > 0:41:28and they'll keep coming back to prison.
0:41:28 > 0:41:3270-odd per cent are going out and they're not re-offending in the first two years,
0:41:32 > 0:41:36- they're getting into recovery... - You're changing lives, breaking the pattern...
0:41:36 > 0:41:37Making a massive difference.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39'That's what happened to Nick,
0:41:39 > 0:41:42'in and out of prison for crimes committed as a drug addict
0:41:42 > 0:41:45'until he became part of the charity RAPT -
0:41:45 > 0:41:48'the Rehabilitation for Addicted Prisoners Trust.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51'That's right, RAPT - good acronym! That was eight years ago.
0:41:51 > 0:41:55'Now he runs the programme here to help the prisoners.'
0:41:55 > 0:41:58A lot of people on this planet experience obsession.
0:41:58 > 0:42:03Loads of people on this planet are waking up, have low self-esteem, don't feel good about themselves.
0:42:03 > 0:42:07Might have a sense of detachment, their morals might have gone out of the window.
0:42:07 > 0:42:12But what separates addicts from the rest of the planet is that
0:42:12 > 0:42:16once they start using, they cannot stop.
0:42:16 > 0:42:18So how do we address that bit?
0:42:18 > 0:42:19Don't start taking...
0:42:19 > 0:42:22Don't use. OK? That's the easy bit.
0:42:22 > 0:42:25You cannot get drunk unless you take a drink.
0:42:25 > 0:42:29You cannot get high unless you inject a drug. Ain't going to happen.
0:42:29 > 0:42:33- What do you think holds you lot together? Strength or weakness? ALL:- Strength.
0:42:33 > 0:42:34Really?
0:42:34 > 0:42:36- ALL:- Weakness.- Thank you.
0:42:36 > 0:42:38It's your ability to be vulnerable,
0:42:38 > 0:42:40it's your ability to drop all the bravado
0:42:40 > 0:42:46and reach out and ask for help and be able to communicate when you're feeling scared and lonely.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49Doing that in a prison setting is really difficult.
0:42:50 > 0:42:54But for you guys in order to do that, you'll need support from each other.
0:42:54 > 0:42:59It's probably hard to confront some of the things you have to while undergoing the RAPT programme.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02It's helped me to understand why.
0:43:02 > 0:43:08I didn't become an addict at 17 when I suffered a bereavement.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10I was an addict from when I was two years old.
0:43:10 > 0:43:13My manipulation started when I was two years old.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15My control started when I was three. You know?
0:43:15 > 0:43:17It's the hardest thing I've ever done.
0:43:17 > 0:43:21Cos you have to be honest. That's not very easy, cos it's revealing and painful.
0:43:21 > 0:43:23- Yeah, you know. - Sometimes embarrassing.
0:43:23 > 0:43:26I've sat in this room at times and felt like I was sitting here naked.
0:43:26 > 0:43:28You weren't, were you, just to clarify?!
0:43:30 > 0:43:31What goes on? It IS a cult!
0:43:36 > 0:43:41Only 60 prisoners out of 2,000 in the Mount get the chance of treatment like this,
0:43:41 > 0:43:45and yet the success rate of staying clean after they've completed the programme and leave prison
0:43:45 > 0:43:49is that almost half stay abstinent. That's really good!
0:43:50 > 0:43:54The way I see it, there's only two things I can't do in my life from now on.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57One's have a drink, the other is use a drug.
0:43:57 > 0:44:01That leaves an infinite amount of possibilities that I can do.
0:44:01 > 0:44:05I could live the rest of my life on the breadline,
0:44:05 > 0:44:10but I'm going to be happy because I'll be living on the breadline clean and sober.
0:44:10 > 0:44:15I still struggle every day. It's all about renewing yourself.
0:44:15 > 0:44:20I'm not going to preach to ya. Yeah? Ephesians 4:23...
0:44:20 > 0:44:25Fucking hell. "Not going to preach." Just quoted me chapter and verse!
0:44:25 > 0:44:30"Be constantly renewed of your mind," meaning having a fresh and mental, spiritual attitude.
0:44:30 > 0:44:34That's good, innit? It's like one day at a time. "Be constantly renewed."
0:44:34 > 0:44:38And this is what this is about. I wanted it this time.
0:44:38 > 0:44:41I needed it, you know?
0:44:41 > 0:44:43I've got children out there who need me.
0:44:43 > 0:44:47My mum and dad want their son back. They want their peace of mind back.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50That's what I stole from them, their peace of mind.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53I can sit here today and say I'm clean.
0:44:53 > 0:44:58I've never been a month clean. Next month I'm going to be a year clean.
0:44:58 > 0:45:02Imagine that, after 22 years, being a year clean.
0:45:03 > 0:45:05Yeah. That's incredible.
0:45:08 > 0:45:12The odds are that when Bernard comes out of prison he'll stay clean.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15Good for him and potential victims.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19But RAPT say they could be offering the same prospect to ten times
0:45:19 > 0:45:22the number of prisoners at the Mount alone.
0:45:22 > 0:45:28It seems that the cost of the programme would be more than offset by the reduction in crime.
0:45:28 > 0:45:34This evolved thinking pings around in the law-enforcing brain of Brighton's Chief of Police.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39- I'm going to see Chief Inspector...- Superintendent.
0:45:39 > 0:45:43Is that better? Chief Superintendent Graham Bartlett.
0:45:43 > 0:45:45Chief Superintendent Graham Bartlett.
0:45:47 > 0:45:51- Hello! - Hi, Russell. Hello. Nice to meet you. How are you?
0:45:51 > 0:45:56Brighton until recently was the drugs death capital of the UK. Try putting that on a mug!
0:45:56 > 0:46:02The way that we approach it here is that most of our crime that involves people stealing stuff -
0:46:02 > 0:46:06- burglaries, car crimes, robberies... - That's called acquisitive crime.
0:46:06 > 0:46:08I didn't want to get into too much police jargon,
0:46:08 > 0:46:13but acquisitive crime is generated by people's need to get money to buy drugs.
0:46:13 > 0:46:15I reckon probably about 80% of that...
0:46:15 > 0:46:1880% of things that are taken criminally is so people can afford drugs.
0:46:18 > 0:46:21That wasn't always the case, was it? It's escalated.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24No. When I was here many years ago working as a detective,
0:46:24 > 0:46:28a lot of the crime was based on professional people committing crime
0:46:28 > 0:46:31because that's how they made their living.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34But it's completely changed and it's all about drugs.
0:46:34 > 0:46:38The sort of defining moment for me was about 17 years ago,
0:46:38 > 0:46:42there was a bloke that I'd known since I was probably two or three,
0:46:42 > 0:46:45grown up with, lost touch with at about 15 or 16,
0:46:45 > 0:46:48really close friend of mine.
0:46:48 > 0:46:50Ended up getting into a party scene,
0:46:50 > 0:46:54then ended up getting into drugs, then getting into addictive drugs,
0:46:54 > 0:47:00ended up not having...losing his job because of it, having to steal, and then committing burglaries.
0:47:00 > 0:47:02He'd been in and out of prison for burglary.
0:47:02 > 0:47:06- Someone who had a comparable upbringing to you.- Absolutely.
0:47:06 > 0:47:09He didn't wake up and think, "I'll be a drug-addicted burglar."
0:47:09 > 0:47:11It was an accident that made him do that.
0:47:11 > 0:47:16Therefore I thought, "Actually, it can happen to any one of us."
0:47:16 > 0:47:20Graham Bartlett decided that instead of putting drug-related arrests
0:47:20 > 0:47:24into police cells and then prison, they'd put them into treatment
0:47:24 > 0:47:28here at a charity called CRI, the Crime Reduction Initiative -
0:47:28 > 0:47:29a less good acronym.
0:47:30 > 0:47:35If what we're trying to do is help people stop using drink, drugs,
0:47:35 > 0:47:38you need to treat them decently, with respect, as people.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41- You need to help people become part of the community.- Why?
0:47:41 > 0:47:44Because they've come from our community.
0:47:44 > 0:47:48The reasons people get into drink and drug use are complicated.
0:47:48 > 0:47:53It's too easy to say, "These people are criminals, they're dirty."
0:47:53 > 0:47:56They're part of the community that we live in.
0:47:56 > 0:48:00Our approach is if you're part of our community,
0:48:00 > 0:48:03we'll work with you to help you become a fuller part of the community.
0:48:03 > 0:48:07That's a brilliant way of thinking. Al, what's your part in this caper?
0:48:07 > 0:48:10I'm a...I'm a hazard to my community, really...
0:48:10 > 0:48:12Thought so! Soon as I see ya I thought,
0:48:12 > 0:48:14"'Allo, he's a hazard to his community, this bloke."
0:48:14 > 0:48:17- How long was you a drug addict for? - About 35 years.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20- Oh, you were committed, then. - Yeah, yeah.
0:48:20 > 0:48:24During that 35-year period, how were you funding your drug use?
0:48:24 > 0:48:28- Clearly you had a good job in the city!- OK!
0:48:28 > 0:48:31I was a street bum for many years, and flitted through phases
0:48:31 > 0:48:35of selling drugs as well. I thought I was a bit of a gangster.
0:48:35 > 0:48:38However I'm not.
0:48:38 > 0:48:41And, er...yeah, so I just done damage, really.
0:48:41 > 0:48:43I sold...I funded other people's habits,
0:48:43 > 0:48:46other people funded mine.
0:48:46 > 0:48:50I'm really good at taking ...and today I don't.
0:48:50 > 0:48:55- I robbed me family. - Robbed your family? That's not good. - Robbed me family. Um...or anyone.
0:48:55 > 0:48:57Any one of us who can get it, I'd rob it.
0:48:57 > 0:49:01I done what I needed to do. Drug dealing, violence,
0:49:01 > 0:49:05stealing from shops, from cheese to clothes.
0:49:05 > 0:49:10"At his worst, Steve was stealing up to a pound of Red Leicester a day."
0:49:10 > 0:49:11How do you help each other?
0:49:11 > 0:49:16I'm, you know, a whole bundle of feelings that some days I don't know what to do with.
0:49:16 > 0:49:20So I give Steve a ring, say, look...cos he understands.
0:49:20 > 0:49:22I've been through treatment with the guy.
0:49:22 > 0:49:26- You go to Steve to talk about your feelings? - I do indeed, yeah!
0:49:26 > 0:49:30Steve?! That's amazing. "I've had a feeling."
0:49:30 > 0:49:33- DEEPLY:- "Oh, yeah? What was your feeling?" Amazing!
0:49:33 > 0:49:37- And it works, you know?- It works. - This stuff works.
0:49:37 > 0:49:43- You're abstaining from drugs and alcohol. You've stopped committing crimes.- Yeah.- Ah!
0:49:43 > 0:49:45Is drug use a health problem or is it a crime problem?
0:49:45 > 0:49:49It spans both, which is all the stuff we've been talking about today.
0:49:49 > 0:49:54The treatment works to improve people's health, and that gets you health gains,
0:49:54 > 0:49:57and also there is a crime reduction dividend to treatment.
0:49:57 > 0:50:00Graham Bartlett told me that in the last six years in Brighton,
0:50:00 > 0:50:05500 addicts who previously would have gone to prison have instead gone into treatment.
0:50:05 > 0:50:12- Between them they've been convicted of about 21,000 crimes. It costs about...- That 500?- Yeah.
0:50:12 > 0:50:15- Fucking hell! They're recidivists. - They absolutely are.
0:50:15 > 0:50:18They've got about an average of 40 crimes each,
0:50:18 > 0:50:23and if you apply a cost to that it's about 27.5 million quid, just those people...
0:50:23 > 0:50:24That 500. 27 million quid!
0:50:24 > 0:50:28Yeah. Just those people, just for what they've been convicted of.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31You made a massive economic saving, taking them out the game.
0:50:34 > 0:50:39For every pound spent on treatment, Brighton saves three pounds on re-offending.
0:50:40 > 0:50:44For the UK, with crimes by drug offenders costing 14 billion a year,
0:50:44 > 0:50:47the savings from this approach could be enormous.
0:50:48 > 0:50:53I've got this philosophy that users belong in treatment, dealers belong in prison.
0:50:53 > 0:50:57If we can understand that addiction is a physiological issue,
0:50:57 > 0:51:02not necessarily one that's going to be solved by people being locked up in prison,
0:51:02 > 0:51:07we can stop them committing the offences that they should be locked up in prison for.
0:51:11 > 0:51:16'We can do things differently in policing and prisons that saves money and lives - brilliant.
0:51:16 > 0:51:19'This is the message I want to take into Parliament, where I've been
0:51:19 > 0:51:23'asked to give evidence before the Home Affairs Select Committee,
0:51:23 > 0:51:27'which has been investigating how effective drug treatment is in the UK.
0:51:27 > 0:51:31'They've taken evidence from all kinds of experts, and now they want to hear
0:51:31 > 0:51:35'what Chip and me think from inside the problem - ex-addicts, in recovery.
0:51:35 > 0:51:37'This means I am a type of expert!'
0:51:37 > 0:51:39This is an amazing experience.
0:51:39 > 0:51:45What is incredible is that nine-and-a-half years ago, you were a mess.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48- I know. We're in Parliament. - And now still a mess.
0:51:48 > 0:51:50Still a mess! But look how nice I look.
0:51:50 > 0:51:52- I know!- We're in Parliament!
0:51:52 > 0:51:53They've invited us here.
0:51:53 > 0:51:57- Yeah. We've not broke in here. - No. Two junkies have been invited into Parliament.
0:51:57 > 0:51:59There you go. We're just a couple of junkies.
0:51:59 > 0:52:05'For me it is vital that more addicts get the relevant information,
0:52:05 > 0:52:08'into recovery, change their lives and become drug free.
0:52:08 > 0:52:12'Of course Amy's death is tragic, but if we use it as an opportunity
0:52:12 > 0:52:16'to review and reassess the way we treat addicts and addiction
0:52:16 > 0:52:20'and alcoholism in this country, it hasn't been entirely in vain.
0:52:20 > 0:52:23'Her death is sad, but it might not feel so pointless.'
0:52:23 > 0:52:25Hello.
0:52:25 > 0:52:27- You're a former heroin addict.- Yeah.
0:52:27 > 0:52:30Um, briefly could you tell us how you got onto drugs
0:52:30 > 0:52:33and then how you managed to come off it?
0:52:33 > 0:52:36I was, like, sad, lonely, unhappy, detached,
0:52:36 > 0:52:40and drugs and alcohol for me seemed like a solution to that problem.
0:52:40 > 0:52:44If you have the disease or the illness of addiction or alcoholism,
0:52:44 > 0:52:47the best way to tackle it is to not use drugs in any form,
0:52:47 > 0:52:51whether it's state-sponsored opiates like methadone,
0:52:51 > 0:52:55or illegal street drugs, or a legal substance like alcohol.
0:52:55 > 0:52:58We see no distinction between these substances.
0:52:58 > 0:53:01What we believe in is that abstinence-based recovery is
0:53:01 > 0:53:04the best solution for people suffering from this condition.
0:53:04 > 0:53:08- Was that brief enough? - Very brief. Thank you.
0:53:08 > 0:53:12You were arrested roughly 12 times by...
0:53:12 > 0:53:13It was rough! Yes.
0:53:13 > 0:53:15Would you say there needs to be a carrot and stick?
0:53:15 > 0:53:20I don't think there needs to be a carrot or a stick. They seem like bizarre metaphors.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23There needs to be love and compassion to everybody involved.
0:53:23 > 0:53:28If people commit criminal behaviour it needs to be dealt with legally, but you need to offer treatment.
0:53:28 > 0:53:31Not out of some airy-fairy "let's all hold hands and hug" liberalism,
0:53:31 > 0:53:36but because it deals with the problem and prevents further crimes being committed.
0:53:36 > 0:53:39Having gone through addiction and then rehabilitation,
0:53:39 > 0:53:43what is your message to young people who want to get involved in drugs?
0:53:43 > 0:53:48My message isn't for young people. My message is for people that have this condition of addiction.
0:53:48 > 0:53:52If you have the condition of addiction there is help available.
0:53:52 > 0:53:55We need to start regarding addiction in all its forms as a health issue,
0:53:55 > 0:53:58as opposed to a judicial and criminal issue.
0:53:58 > 0:54:00We need to change the laws in this country.
0:54:00 > 0:54:03We need to have a more compassionate, altruistic, loving attitude
0:54:03 > 0:54:07to the people with the disease of addiction and recognise that these people,
0:54:07 > 0:54:10with the proper help, access to the proper treatment,
0:54:10 > 0:54:15can become active and helpful members of society, like myself... Some would argue that point.
0:54:15 > 0:54:17We need to offer them treatment and activate them
0:54:17 > 0:54:19and incorporate them into our society.
0:54:19 > 0:54:23The message is ultimately one of pragmatism, altruism and compassion
0:54:23 > 0:54:25in all areas of the condition.
0:54:31 > 0:54:34Esky! Stay...
0:54:34 > 0:54:37Karen has followed through on the chance of going into rehab.
0:54:37 > 0:54:41She's just been assessed at Focus 12.
0:54:41 > 0:54:47Had the assessment. "What am I using, how much methadone am I on?"
0:54:47 > 0:54:50When I spoke to them they said they were concerned
0:54:50 > 0:54:53because the amount of methadone you'll have to go on
0:54:53 > 0:54:57to compensate for when you're not using illegal drugs any more
0:54:57 > 0:55:02- would be really high, and they said it'd take about three months to reduce you.- Mmm.
0:55:02 > 0:55:08Well, what they... I was reducing down by 10ml a week up until last week.
0:55:08 > 0:55:11- How was that? Did you notice it? - Yeah, I did, yeah.- Really? Honest?
0:55:11 > 0:55:15I spent a couple of days crying, then another one wanting to fight...everyone.
0:55:15 > 0:55:20I think that just shows the direct relationship between taking drugs and not feeling emotions,
0:55:20 > 0:55:24and not taking drugs and feeling emotions and therefore the obligation...
0:55:24 > 0:55:27- And that is why people take drugs. Yeah.- Yeah.
0:55:27 > 0:55:31But I can imagine you really clearly off drugs. I can really see you.
0:55:31 > 0:55:35I can see you competent, driving, three stone heavier,
0:55:35 > 0:55:38living a life, sorted out, looking different.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41I can really, really imagine it for you. That's the thing.
0:55:41 > 0:55:45- That's the thing, more obviously than I ever have with anybody.- Mmm?
0:55:45 > 0:55:47But do you think you deserve to be clean?
0:55:47 > 0:55:51Do you think you deserve to be happy? I suppose that's what I'm asking.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54- I don't think you do think that you deserve it.- Mmm?
0:55:54 > 0:55:59I don't think anyone does who takes drugs, you know, addictively.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04'There's loads of people that are going to die
0:56:04 > 0:56:06'if they don't stop taking drugs and drinking.
0:56:06 > 0:56:10'That sense that I had with Amy, there's a sense of inevitability.
0:56:10 > 0:56:16'When I think of someone like Karen, who's also a really smart woman,
0:56:16 > 0:56:21'who's going to die if she doesn't stop taking drugs - that's how I see it.'
0:56:21 > 0:56:25MUSIC: "Back To Black" by Amy Winehouse
0:56:25 > 0:56:29# We only said goodbye with words
0:56:29 > 0:56:32# I died 100 times
0:56:32 > 0:56:35# You go back to her
0:56:35 > 0:56:40# And I'll go back to...
0:56:40 > 0:56:43# We only said goodbye with words
0:56:43 > 0:56:47# I died 100 times
0:56:47 > 0:56:51# You go back to her
0:56:51 > 0:56:56# And I'll go back to black. #
0:56:56 > 0:56:58Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd