0:00:04 > 0:00:05ALARM SOUNDS
0:00:05 > 0:00:09In 1975, the BBC broadcast a documentary about
0:00:09 > 0:00:13a serial arsonist that shocked the nation.
0:00:13 > 0:00:14Yes, Mini. What do you want?
0:00:14 > 0:00:15Can I go to the toilet?
0:00:15 > 0:00:19Known as Mini, the troubled yet charismatic fire starter was
0:00:19 > 0:00:22just 11 years old at the time.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26She had this cupboard full of old newspapers,
0:00:26 > 0:00:31The Sun, equipment, goodness knows what. I just got the matches
0:00:31 > 0:00:34and I set all the papers on fire and I went into this room, you know,
0:00:34 > 0:00:37where all the blankets and that was and I set the material on fire
0:00:37 > 0:00:39So, that's two rooms you set alight then.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42Then I went upstairs and set the beds on fire.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Directed by Franc Roddam,
0:00:44 > 0:00:48the film hits as hard today as it did all those years ago.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50I think I should be able to set a fire if I want to.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57How did you come in the first place to meet Mini
0:00:57 > 0:00:59and to come across this story?
0:00:59 > 0:01:03In 1975, I was making a documentary about a group of children
0:01:03 > 0:01:04in a secure unit.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07In the secure unit, there was a more secure unit where there
0:01:07 > 0:01:12were 12 children who were considered dangerous, and Mini was one of the 12.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14He was considered a serial arsonist
0:01:14 > 0:01:17and he'd set fire to his family home.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20It just so happened that there was a person in the house.
0:01:20 > 0:01:22Mm-hm. That was your dad that time, wasn't it?
0:01:22 > 0:01:24Yes!
0:01:24 > 0:01:26'When I went to the assessment centre,
0:01:26 > 0:01:27'they immediately suggested Mini'
0:01:27 > 0:01:30and, first of all, I thought the name is strange.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32The kids call him Mini Cooper. Yeah. "Oh," they said,
0:01:32 > 0:01:35"He stole the head mistress's car and tried to drive it." So, they were
0:01:35 > 0:01:39all like...they were selling him to me as the kid you should interview.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41They said, "He's super-smart. He's great.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43"He looks like an angel."
0:01:43 > 0:01:45I don't fancy setting the school on fire!
0:01:45 > 0:01:46And their assessment was right
0:01:46 > 0:01:50He was really a smashing kid, really bright, very reasoned,
0:01:50 > 0:01:52super clever, thoughtful,
0:01:52 > 0:01:56very interesting and very brave and...
0:01:56 > 0:01:59And very dangerous. Well, we had yet to find that out.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03And I just sort of glanced a box of matches and I was standing there and
0:02:03 > 0:02:06there was this whole box of matches standing on the mantelpiece.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09I says, "Ah! I'll have them!" So, you know, there was this cupboard.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12I just walked in and there was the cupboard full of papers,
0:02:12 > 0:02:14and I said, "This is too much temptation!"
0:02:14 > 0:02:16I wasn't meaning to burn the house down.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19I said, "This is too much temptation. It's got to happen.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21He's from County Durham. Yes.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24They gave you this extraordinary access.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27I think anyone who sees that film wonders how you managed to get it.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29I think, partly, at that time, there was
0:02:29 > 0:02:31a romance that the public had with television
0:02:31 > 0:02:36and it was quite a modern thing Yes, we were a very open society.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40You can come in, you can listen watch, do what you like,
0:02:40 > 0:02:45and we trust you because we know you like this institution,
0:02:45 > 0:02:49and we know you'll come to the same conclusions that we have.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51'In fact, the film came to the opposite conclusions and
0:02:51 > 0:02:53'that was because of Mini.'
0:02:53 > 0:02:56You have your own opinions. Mm-hm.
0:02:56 > 0:03:01Strongly. Mmm. Whereas, other people, who don't get into bother...
0:03:01 > 0:03:03Don't have their opinions, Charlie.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07Now, what do you think's better then? This is what I'm getting at.
0:03:07 > 0:03:08You feel it's better to be like you?
0:03:08 > 0:03:10Yes, it's getting us into trouble,
0:03:10 > 0:03:15but, still, I'm not going to let everyone just say this and say that.
0:03:15 > 0:03:19When I started working with Mini. I immediately liked him enormously.
0:03:19 > 0:03:23I thought, "This kid is like a braver version of my childhood self."
0:03:23 > 0:03:26And, uh, we came from similar backgrounds -
0:03:26 > 0:03:30both industrial working class, both had very tough fathers,
0:03:30 > 0:03:32both had very strong Catholic mothers, uh,
0:03:32 > 0:03:37both were opinionated and both wanted to go our own way.
0:03:37 > 0:03:41I was permitted to go my own way and Mini was not.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44Now, we're going to meet Mini today. Mm-hm. But, first of all,
0:03:44 > 0:03:49we're going to watch the film that you made 38 years ago.
0:03:49 > 0:03:50Brilliant. Thank you.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56ALARM SOUNDS
0:04:09 > 0:04:10Yes, Mini, what do you want?
0:04:10 > 0:04:12Can I go to the toilet? Yeah, OK.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32Jack, Mini wants to go to the toilet
0:04:32 > 0:04:33OK.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48It's Mini again. (Right.) Toilet.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03Can I just go to the toilet? Right, go on.
0:05:04 > 0:05:09This boy, at 11 years old, is too dangerous to be allowed his freedom.
0:05:09 > 0:05:10DOOR LOCKS RATTLE
0:05:32 > 0:05:33MINI SINGS TO HIMSELF
0:05:33 > 0:05:34Good night.
0:05:40 > 0:05:45And she had this cupboard full of old newspapers, The Sun,
0:05:45 > 0:05:47equipment, goodness knows what
0:05:47 > 0:05:50and I just got the matches and I set all the papers on fire.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Then I went into this room where all the blankets and that was
0:05:53 > 0:05:56and I set the material on fire So, that's two rooms you set alight.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59Mm-hm. And I went upstairs and set the beds on fire.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02And was anybody in the house? Aye, my dad.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05Right, just date of birth, please.
0:06:05 > 0:06:0923...8...63.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11So, he's...?
0:06:11 > 0:06:1211 and 2.
0:06:12 > 0:06:1511 and 2? Mm-hm.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18He's from County Durham. Yes.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25Right, paint picture, please.
0:06:25 > 0:06:26Michael is a diminutive boy...
0:06:26 > 0:06:27'For the last five months,
0:06:27 > 0:06:31'Mini has been at Aycliffe Assessment Centre in County Durham.
0:06:31 > 0:06:36'Here, he's been tested, interviewed and analysed by psychologists,
0:06:36 > 0:06:38'teachers and psychiatrists.
0:06:38 > 0:06:42'This meeting will decide what's to happen to Mini.'
0:06:42 > 0:06:45He particularly enjoys adult company.
0:06:45 > 0:06:46He is occasionally enuretic.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50Michael was admitted to Aycliffe School following a period of
0:06:50 > 0:06:53two and a half years at Redworth Hall Residential School
0:06:53 > 0:06:55for maladjusted children.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57He was referred to the school when aged eight years
0:06:57 > 0:06:59following two offences of arson -
0:06:59 > 0:07:02one in his home and the other in a church.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07In January 1973, while an absconder, Michael again set fire
0:07:07 > 0:07:10to his home, knowing his father to be asleep upstairs.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12Two months later, he returned to the gutted house
0:07:12 > 0:07:15and set fire to what remained.
0:07:15 > 0:07:19During his time at Redworth Hall, Michael absconded 18 times.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22He received regular psychiatric oversight throughout this period.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26Michael comes from a home where there are reports
0:07:26 > 0:07:28of considerable problems in the family.
0:07:28 > 0:07:33He started wandering, then running away from home when three years old.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36While both parents accept they are unable to control Michael,
0:07:36 > 0:07:40they have expressed determination that he should not feel rejected.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42They have maintained regular contact with Michael
0:07:42 > 0:07:44throughout his time at Aycliffe
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Although he has appeared in court on only one occasion, Michael
0:07:47 > 0:07:51has been stealing and committing offences of arson from an early age.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57Right, thank you. And the medical we have...
0:07:57 > 0:08:00He's below average height,
0:08:00 > 0:08:03he's smaller than he should be for his age.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12There are 90 inmates at Aycliffe Centre.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15Mini is one of a dozen particularly disturbed
0:08:15 > 0:08:19and disruptive children who live in a high security block.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22Here, the staff observes and assesses the children at
0:08:22 > 0:08:26all times as they play, as they relax and as they work
0:08:26 > 0:08:29These tests will give us a chance to find out what you're like
0:08:29 > 0:08:33and what you think you're like Some of them are educational -
0:08:33 > 0:08:38reading comprehension and spelling to see how well you can read and spell,
0:08:38 > 0:08:42and the other two or three are about your opinions, what you think.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46That's one chance you'll get of giving us your opinions
0:08:46 > 0:08:48telling us what you're like.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51Most of the time we hear what you're like from
0:08:51 > 0:08:55other people, like teachers and social workers, et cetera.
0:08:55 > 0:08:56'When you open the book,'
0:08:56 > 0:08:59you'll see that there are a lot of little
0:08:59 > 0:09:02matchstick men drawings down the side.
0:09:02 > 0:09:04Against each drawing...
0:09:06 > 0:09:08..there are a number...
0:09:08 > 0:09:11of different interpretations.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13There's A, B, C, D, E.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15How do we know what they're doing?
0:09:15 > 0:09:18Now, you have to pick one from there that you think is most likely
0:09:18 > 0:09:21to happen in that situation.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24There's no time limit on it. You can take as long as you like.
0:09:25 > 0:09:26OK?
0:09:30 > 0:09:33"What does the person in the picture do?
0:09:33 > 0:09:36"On a vacation in the mountains. . Hiding from the police...
0:09:36 > 0:09:40"Trying to discover gold... Spying on the enemy...
0:09:40 > 0:09:42"Crying because he was punished "
0:09:43 > 0:09:45Hiding from the police.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48Remember, we're asking you what are the differences between being
0:09:48 > 0:09:51here at Aycliffe and being at home. You've got plenty of freedom.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54You've got plenty of freedom at home and no freedom here, is that right?
0:09:54 > 0:09:57What else? Not in vice, you don t.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01What else? Do what you like. Where? Here?
0:10:01 > 0:10:04At home. At home. Well, you can't do what you like here No.
0:10:09 > 0:10:10LOCKS RATTLE
0:10:13 > 0:10:15The only reason I done this was cos
0:10:15 > 0:10:17something had happened between me and somebody else.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19Maddie.
0:10:19 > 0:10:20Might have been.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23Do you love Maddie? Eh?
0:10:23 > 0:10:25Are you still going out with her?
0:10:25 > 0:10:28What do you think when you're engaged to her, you noggin.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30Well, you could easily get divorced.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33I just started getting a piece of glass and going like that.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35Look, you can see my arms - perfectly all right,
0:10:35 > 0:10:38except for when you dug your nails into me there.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42That was your fault, wasn't it Yeah, I tried to grab hold of you.
0:10:43 > 0:10:44Did you say night, night...?
0:10:44 > 0:10:47I'll tell you something if you want to do that, Mini..
0:10:47 > 0:10:50I'm not going to, don't worry. I m not going to do it. I'm not stupid.
0:10:52 > 0:10:53Quiet. One at a time.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56Write down what rules you would like to make in the school.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59How many rules? Go home every weekend. Just the one.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02We should go home every weekend Well, could you last a weekend
0:11:02 > 0:11:06We'd try! We should have... Yes, Mini?
0:11:06 > 0:11:09We should have, like, points, you know. Wrong!
0:11:09 > 0:11:11Just a moment, one at a time.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14Like, how good you are, you get a certain amount of points.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17If you've got enough points, you get more privileges.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19Yes, that's a good idea.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22Aycliffe Centre is a transit camp.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25Most of the children have been through the juvenile courts.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29After exhaustive tests, the experts here decide where the children
0:11:29 > 0:11:33are to be sent and what form of treatment each is to receive
0:11:34 > 0:11:38I'm so gasping, I'd probably have 20 in a day.
0:11:38 > 0:11:39I sometimes have ten in a day.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41Ten?
0:11:41 > 0:11:45What do you use your matches for? Just lighting your cigarettes, son?
0:11:45 > 0:11:47You wouldn't use them for anything else? No?
0:11:47 > 0:11:50I don't fancy setting the school on fire!
0:11:50 > 0:11:52What have you been accused of? OK, what's the main thing?
0:11:52 > 0:11:54Nicking.
0:11:54 > 0:11:55The main thing is nicking?
0:11:55 > 0:11:59What's the other things? Let's write them all down. Nicking..
0:12:00 > 0:12:03And doing a bunk and that's that. And setting fires.
0:12:03 > 0:12:06Doing a bunk, and lastly?
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Setting fires. Setting fires.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Do you place them in that order Uh-huh. That's the most important?
0:12:12 > 0:12:15Nicking? Uh-huh. Doing a bunk is...
0:12:17 > 0:12:19..more important than setting fires?
0:12:19 > 0:12:22No, I'd think setting fires is more important than doing a bunk.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25So, you'd put setting fires second.
0:12:25 > 0:12:28Yeah. Do you want to know what way I would put them?
0:12:28 > 0:12:30What way? What do you think?
0:12:30 > 0:12:32Fires first. That's right.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35You've noticed that before, I suppose, with people.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37Why do you think they concentrate on that one, then?
0:12:37 > 0:12:40Because fire is very dangerous It's very dangerous...
0:12:40 > 0:12:42If you don't use it properly. Yes.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44What are Chipsticks, Mini?
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Erm, they're little crisps.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48Oh, you seem to have stolen an awful lot of them in your time
0:12:48 > 0:12:51Do you like them? Aye. I thought you might.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53I've got to mix them with the pop cos it makes me thirsty.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56And you're also stealing firelighters.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59Aye. And what are you stealing those for?
0:12:59 > 0:13:01Or shouldn't I ask stupid questions?
0:13:01 > 0:13:04No, you asked me a reasonable question there.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07What are you stealing them for Because they've got, you know,
0:13:07 > 0:13:10enough paraffin to keep alight for a long time. Mm-hm.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13See, cos if you're just putting paper under it that goes up all at once and
0:13:13 > 0:13:16by the time you've got the sticks on, it's not getting
0:13:16 > 0:13:18enough heat to the sticks to make them burn,
0:13:18 > 0:13:20so that stays alight for a long time. You know, enough time to...
0:13:20 > 0:13:23So, they burn much better for starting fires? Uh-uh.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26Do you do anything special with the stuff to make it burn better?
0:13:27 > 0:13:30It depends what kind of fire I'm having.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33There's different kinds of fires? Mm-hm.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35What's the difference then? Can you explain the difference
0:13:35 > 0:13:39I could be setting the shed on fire, I could be having a little stick fire or...
0:13:39 > 0:13:41What's the difference between a shed and a stick?
0:13:41 > 0:13:43Well, you can chop sticks up, you know.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46You've got to sort of squirt.. You've got to put some oil,
0:13:46 > 0:13:49something on to get a shed on fire,
0:13:49 > 0:13:51or at least build it up with paper and things like that
0:13:51 > 0:13:55and then set it all on fire, it gives time for the wood to go up.
0:13:55 > 0:13:59What kind of oil do you mean? You know 3-in-One Oil?
0:13:59 > 0:14:04Just squirt certain places, then set it all... I didn't know that burned.
0:14:04 > 0:14:08It did. It's very good stuff. It's very good stuff?
0:14:08 > 0:14:12It just so happened that I was standing there, right?
0:14:12 > 0:14:14Watching the firemen and they squirted it and it missed
0:14:14 > 0:14:17and it squirted me, right, and I got drenched right through there,
0:14:17 > 0:14:20and I was standing there and everyone was round wondering,
0:14:20 > 0:14:23and they didn't even see, they didn't notice it was me standing there
0:14:23 > 0:14:26I was standing there watching the firemen put it out, right?
0:14:26 > 0:14:29It was so dark, they didn't even realise it was me standing there!
0:14:29 > 0:14:32'You've worked out things like 3-in-One Oil and'
0:14:32 > 0:14:35firelighters on your own? Mm-hm
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Because...well, you're interested in doing it, really, aren't you? Mm-hm.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41Now, that's what you do. What do you think about it?
0:14:41 > 0:14:44Do you think it's a good thing to do? Mm-hm.
0:14:44 > 0:14:48To me it is, but to other people it's not. To other people it's not.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51Can you understand their point of view when you say that?
0:14:51 > 0:14:55Because people don't like having fires set all over the place.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58Can you understand that? Yeah.
0:14:59 > 0:15:03And do you not want to agree with them? I don't agree with them.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07I think I should be able to set a fire if I want to.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10If you feel like doing it, you feel you should be able to do it? Uh huh.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15If they want to stop us, wait till the fire's going, then put it out.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17What if you set a fire to somebody's house though?
0:15:18 > 0:15:21Do you feel you should be allowed to do that?
0:15:21 > 0:15:24No, I wouldn't set fire to anybody else's house.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27What about setting fire to somebody's shed?
0:15:27 > 0:15:29Well, your shed's nothing.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33There's nothing good, there's nothing valuable in a shed, is there?
0:15:33 > 0:15:37And what other places have you done it?
0:15:37 > 0:15:40Me house. Your house, and have you done that more than once?
0:15:40 > 0:15:42No. Yes! Twice.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44Tell me how you did these ones
0:15:44 > 0:15:47I just set old papers, you know, in a cupboard.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50Oh, so you climbed in the window. Mm-hm.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53Got the papers. Mm-hm. Set the fire. Mm-hm.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55And climbed out the window again? Mm-hm.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01Then you stood and watched? Uh-huh. Uh-huh? It was the bedroom window.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03What did you see when you watched? What did you see?
0:16:03 > 0:16:06I didn't see anything, I just saw the smoke coming out of
0:16:06 > 0:16:08the bedroom window. What did you feel?
0:16:08 > 0:16:12I felt good. If anyone was left in there and...it just
0:16:12 > 0:16:15so happened someone was left in there.
0:16:15 > 0:16:19You said, "Oh, God, if anyone was left in there..." God help them
0:16:19 > 0:16:23God help them. And it just so happened somebody was in there.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26It just so happened that there was a person in the house. Mm-hm.
0:16:26 > 0:16:28That was your dad that time, wasn't it? Yes!
0:16:28 > 0:16:30KNOCKS ON DOOR
0:16:33 > 0:16:35FAINT CHATTERING
0:16:40 > 0:16:42Hello, Roger. Can I see Michael
0:16:42 > 0:16:47You've just come off work again have you? Yes.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50Hello, son. Have you been a good lad? Aye.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53I've got this for Michelle. You've got this for Michelle? It's a dog.
0:16:53 > 0:16:56Shall we go before the mob get back?
0:16:56 > 0:17:00Before we get killed in the rush, eh? Say cheerio to Mr Parsons.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02Cheerio, Mr Parsons. I'll see you between
0:17:02 > 0:17:06seven and eight tomorrow night Seven and...? Sunday night.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09All right, cheerio, Mr Cooper. Behave yourself, mate.
0:17:14 > 0:17:18We've got to look after you the best we can.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20And when we got you put in there,
0:17:20 > 0:17:24we didn't do it to get you locked away purposely, that we
0:17:24 > 0:17:26didn't want you, it wasn't because of that.
0:17:26 > 0:17:30We put you in one of those schools so that it could help you and
0:17:30 > 0:17:33we thought that by putting you there, we were helping you.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35Yeah. You see? You are.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39Of course we are, but sometimes you don't seem to realise that
0:17:39 > 0:17:42Because there's times where you re at this school,
0:17:42 > 0:17:45you're just stooping off for no apparent reason,
0:17:45 > 0:17:49and then when we ask you why you've run away, you say you don't know.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53So, what can we do to try and help you?
0:17:53 > 0:17:57We're doing our best by sending you to school, aren't we? Yes.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00You know, we didn't lock you away.
0:18:00 > 0:18:02You know...we don't hate you.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07You know when I take you back and you misbehave at home... Yeah.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10And I take you back on a Sunday night, don't I? Yeah.
0:18:10 > 0:18:14You know I must report anything that you do wrong, you see?
0:18:14 > 0:18:18Yeah. You know, and by me reporting you it's helping you
0:18:18 > 0:18:20it's not going against you, it's helping you.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23Yeah, I know that.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25Here we go!
0:18:25 > 0:18:27There's Kim.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29Where's Kim?
0:18:29 > 0:18:31There's Kim all right.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Kim.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36LAUGHING: He knows it's me!
0:18:36 > 0:18:38Don't you, old son?
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Hello, Kim. Go on, get the door. Go on.
0:18:41 > 0:18:46Kim! Hello, son. Hello, Kim.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48Hello. Don't have to get excited, man.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52Kim. Come on, Kim! Kim!
0:18:52 > 0:18:55Who made this? I did.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57Let's see its shaggy coat. Gorgeous.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00You're a good lad, aren't you? You're a good lad.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02You're a good lad.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05THEY CHATTER AND LAUGH
0:19:10 > 0:19:13Mum, we had to write down our three wishes and I says,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16"I'd like to go to America and enjoy myself,"
0:19:16 > 0:19:19and I can't remember the second one, I don't think.
0:19:19 > 0:19:24Erm, I'd like a stereo record player with two big loudspeakers.
0:19:24 > 0:19:31And...but I destroyed a few things - I destroyed...
0:19:31 > 0:19:35Newcastle United's football ground and all guns.
0:19:36 > 0:19:40I've got my gutty. Go and get my gutty.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43We'll get that other one. Go on then, hurry on.
0:20:01 > 0:20:05Mini hasn't spent much time at home in the last two years
0:20:05 > 0:20:08and so he's a bit of a stranger to the other boys in the street
0:20:08 > 0:20:12He prefers to play indoors with his two younger sisters
0:20:12 > 0:20:14who he knows he can dominate.
0:20:14 > 0:20:15Right, the first song...
0:20:18 > 0:20:21We'll all come in with "I Hate The Devil", right? Right.
0:20:21 > 0:20:26Now then, after that, you know you both step forward
0:20:26 > 0:20:28and we'll all start singing it
0:20:28 > 0:20:32After that, us two step back, Jacqueline stays forward,
0:20:32 > 0:20:34she sings "I Could Always", right?
0:20:34 > 0:20:39After that, you go in, you two sing "Speckled Frogs"
0:20:39 > 0:20:44and after that I'll come in with "The 12th Of Never", right?
0:20:44 > 0:20:49And YOU do your best because you do too much laughing, right?
0:20:49 > 0:20:51I'll try not to laugh, I'll try You won't laugh.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54Never mind, "You'll try not to laugh." You won't!
0:20:54 > 0:20:55Right, so do your best.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58You won't or I'll make you sit down and you won't come in with any
0:20:58 > 0:21:03more songs, right? Don't laugh right, Jacqueline? Right.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Look at me when I'm talking to you. Because if you do,
0:21:05 > 0:21:08I'll just make you sit back or stand back, and I mean it.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11If you think I'm joking, you try laughing and you'll find out.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13Right... And I don't want you to laugh so
0:21:13 > 0:21:15you don't have to try, right? Right...
0:21:15 > 0:21:20Remember, there's going to be people watching, like Mum and Dad.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22Don't let him make you laugh.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26If you think he's going to make you laugh, look over towards Dad.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29# The devil is a sly old fox
0:21:29 > 0:21:32# If I could catch him, I'd punch him in the box
0:21:32 > 0:21:35# I'd lock the box and throw away the key
0:21:35 > 0:21:39# For all the tricks he's played on me
0:21:39 > 0:21:47# I hate the devil
0:21:47 > 0:21:51# He is so bad to me
0:21:51 > 0:21:59# I love Jesus
0:21:59 > 0:22:02# He is so good to me. #
0:22:02 > 0:22:05And the holy fathers are going there
0:22:05 > 0:22:08to try to bring the Good News to them.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14We wonder when we hear about these missionaries,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17how we can help them.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19And the Lord said,
0:22:19 > 0:22:22"Listen to what the unjust judge has to say."
0:22:22 > 0:22:27Now then, our God will see justice done to His chosen
0:22:27 > 0:22:30who cry to Him day and night,
0:22:30 > 0:22:33even when He delays to help them.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Think about it. He was crucified for no reason
0:22:36 > 0:22:38He shouldn't have said he was the king of all kings.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40But he was the king of all kings.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43Yeah, well, he shouldn't go around telling everybody.
0:22:43 > 0:22:46But he said that his...
0:22:46 > 0:22:49you know, kingdom was not of this earth.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52His kingdom was of a higher place.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54That's why they crucified him.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57But, you see, the people at that time couldn't understand that
0:22:57 > 0:23:01because, I mean, there was kings on the earth. Get that out your mouth.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Do you not want to follow it or something? Why?
0:23:06 > 0:23:09I don't believe it. But that's your religion.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11That's the way you've been brought up.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14That's the way we try to bring you up, anyway
0:23:14 > 0:23:19And if you wanted to, you know you could understand it and follow it.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22Couldn't you, now? I don't like following them kind of things.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25What kind of things? But why? Tell me why? Give me a proper reason why.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28Just...not "I don't know." Tell us why you don't want to follow it
0:23:28 > 0:23:31Cos I don't like it. You don't like it.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33And why don't you like it? Why don't you like it?
0:23:33 > 0:23:34I've never seen God.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37Well, neither have we.
0:23:37 > 0:23:38That is rubbish.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41You can't believe in anybody if you've never seen them.
0:23:41 > 0:23:42Oh, but you can.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44Look what he said to doubting Thomas.
0:23:44 > 0:23:45Who?
0:23:45 > 0:23:47When Our Lord said to Thomas the Disciple...
0:23:49 > 0:23:52"Blessed are those that have not seen and believe."
0:23:52 > 0:23:54Think about it. Think about the birth of the baby
0:23:54 > 0:23:57and what a marvellous thing it is, and all the different things
0:23:57 > 0:23:59that happen through life that you can't understand.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02It takes a better brain than what ours are, you know?
0:24:02 > 0:24:04I mean, He knows what's in people's minds
0:24:04 > 0:24:07and why they do different things. I know what's in my mind.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11I know you do, but you're not the only one that does.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13God can see into your mind.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15Well, I believe that.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17Well, I don't. Because, I mean there's far too much happened that
0:24:17 > 0:24:20you can't understand. But we'll see about this, won't we?
0:24:20 > 0:24:23There's got to be another person better than what we are.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26He never works miracles for me Hm? He hasn't done one for me yet.
0:24:29 > 0:24:30Hello, Mini.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35THEY SPEAK OVER EACH OTHER
0:24:36 > 0:24:38He's been, uh, he been a good lad. Has he now?
0:24:38 > 0:24:40He never gets in trouble on the weekend.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43And I will write you this week Right?
0:24:43 > 0:24:46- All right. Be good. Be good.
0:24:46 > 0:24:47- Come on then, that's a good lad.
0:24:51 > 0:24:54'I'm not a person that lets everyone just say this and say,
0:24:54 > 0:24:57'"Right, we're sticking with this and that's it."'
0:24:57 > 0:24:59You don't like other people...
0:24:59 > 0:25:02Telling me what we're sticking at and what were doing.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04If I don't agree, I'll say I don't like doing it
0:25:04 > 0:25:09You have your own opinions. Mm-hm. Strongly. Mm-hm.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13Whereas, other people who don't get into bother...
0:25:13 > 0:25:14Don't have their opinions, Charlie.
0:25:14 > 0:25:18Now, what do you think's better then? This is what I'm getting at.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20You feel it's better to be like you?
0:25:20 > 0:25:21Yes, it's getting us into trouble,
0:25:21 > 0:25:26but still I'm not going to let everyone just say this and say that.
0:25:26 > 0:25:29It's getting you into trouble, but you don't mind? No.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32Now, what have you written for your teacher, Mini
0:25:32 > 0:25:35I think teachers are here to educate kids.
0:25:35 > 0:25:36Uh-huh?
0:25:36 > 0:25:37That's it.
0:25:38 > 0:25:39Well, tell me more.
0:25:41 > 0:25:44I mean, kids have got to be educated.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47I mean, if you want a job or something like that.
0:25:47 > 0:25:49I mean, if you had to work your pay hours, I mean,
0:25:49 > 0:25:52anyone could rob you of five quid or something, couldn't they?
0:25:53 > 0:25:56You mean an employer? Somebody who pays you money for your job?
0:25:56 > 0:25:58Right. I see. They could nick five quid and say,
0:25:58 > 0:26:01"Can I get myself a drink?"
0:26:01 > 0:26:04Have you met any teachers that you've particularly liked
0:26:04 > 0:26:06I don't like any teachers. You don't like any teachers?
0:26:06 > 0:26:08But still they're there to do their job, aren't they?
0:26:08 > 0:26:12Did you like St Mary's? No. Why not? I didn't like the head mistress
0:26:12 > 0:26:14Why not? She was nagging.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17She always nagged at you. What was she nagging about?
0:26:17 > 0:26:21Well, you know, she was saying, No whistling in the corridors!" Uh-huh.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24She used to say, "Whistle when you get outside the gate." Uh-huh.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27And what else? And she used to say, "No biting nails." Yeah.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29And things, you know, she'll say it.
0:26:30 > 0:26:34I mean, she nags about nothing All the time. Yeah.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37I mean, if you go around the hedge, you know like some trees, right
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Yeah. On the back was like a pond.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42It's in the school and she says "No going over to the pond."
0:26:42 > 0:26:44I went, "What's it there for?"
0:26:44 > 0:26:48She chose to say prayers and I wouldn't say them.
0:26:48 > 0:26:50She tried to make you say prayers and you...?
0:26:50 > 0:26:52Wouldn't say them so she gave us the strap.
0:26:52 > 0:26:53Did you keep refusing? Uh-huh.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56What did you say? I was saying "I don't like saying prayers.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58"You can't make us say prayers.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01She says, "You're here to learn You'll do what you're told."
0:27:01 > 0:27:02I said, "I'm not saying prayers "
0:27:02 > 0:27:04She tried to force you to say them? Mm-hm.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07So, she gave us the strap. You would never give in?
0:27:07 > 0:27:09I never. She gave us the strap
0:27:10 > 0:27:12And she strapped you? Aye.
0:27:12 > 0:27:16Straight over the hand. What did you do when she strapped you?
0:27:16 > 0:27:19She'd have, like, two little boxes, this side and that side full of
0:27:19 > 0:27:21calendars and I set them all alight and they went up,
0:27:21 > 0:27:23and I rolled it over towards the seat.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26To the seat? Why did you roll it over towards the seat?
0:27:26 > 0:27:28To set it on fire. Hmm.
0:27:30 > 0:27:32Why did you do that?
0:27:32 > 0:27:35Cos I didn't like it. You didn't like the church?
0:27:36 > 0:27:37That wasn't nice of you. Yeah.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40Had somebody not been nice to you there or something? Hm.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42It was just an escape. OK.
0:27:42 > 0:27:43An escape...
0:27:44 > 0:27:48All right, it was a church attached to the school, was it
0:27:49 > 0:27:50I see.
0:27:51 > 0:27:54And then...did it all burn down this church?
0:27:54 > 0:27:55Half of it did. Half of it did
0:27:57 > 0:27:59Were you disappointed? Mm-hm.
0:27:59 > 0:28:02Would you have liked it all to have gone? Mm-hm.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05You know, you didn't like that school you were in.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08Had you ever thought of, erm, burning it?
0:28:08 > 0:28:10No. No?
0:28:10 > 0:28:12While the head mistress... Too many kids in there.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14You wouldn't like to do it where there were people? No.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16Are you careful about that?
0:28:16 > 0:28:19I don't...I don't want to get..
0:28:19 > 0:28:21you know, involved in murder.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24No. I mean, if I did it would just be murder, wouldn't it?
0:28:24 > 0:28:26That's too bad, is it? Mm-hm.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29You absconded three times in the month, didn't you? Yeah
0:28:29 > 0:28:34When you returned to St Mary's you pinched the teacher's car. Yeah.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37How did you do that? Did you go after school? Uh-huh
0:28:37 > 0:28:40I went to the staff room. And? Took the keys, went down to start the car.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43It was going "Brum-brum!" And I was sitting there, holding it...!
0:28:43 > 0:28:45You couldn't drive it?
0:28:45 > 0:28:48I was just driving it all over the school grounds going,
0:28:48 > 0:28:52"Brum!" And here's me driving round saying, "How can I get out?"
0:28:52 > 0:28:54Because the doors, you know, I was only saying now, I says,
0:28:54 > 0:28:57"I'll try it," I said, "I'll stop."
0:28:57 > 0:28:59I wasn't so sure about getting out! Mm-hm.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02You don't get pleasure in the normal way with other boys?
0:29:03 > 0:29:04So, you do a bunk?
0:29:07 > 0:29:08That is, you run away?
0:29:08 > 0:29:09Yep.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12You returned...
0:29:12 > 0:29:17..to Redworth that month, but the next day you ran away again.
0:29:17 > 0:29:21Mm-hm. And you were picked up in Newcastle for shoplifting.
0:29:21 > 0:29:22Yeah.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24That's when I got sent down to court. Yeah.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29That's the first time you appeared in court.
0:29:29 > 0:29:31I don't know what's happened. Um ..
0:29:33 > 0:29:36You were made the subject of a care order.
0:29:36 > 0:29:40What does that mean? You were placed in the care of the local authority.
0:29:40 > 0:29:41Yeah?
0:29:41 > 0:29:44I got put in other places. Well, that means, uh...
0:29:46 > 0:29:48..you have a social worker attached to you, who's
0:29:48 > 0:29:51responsible for you. Hm. Yeah?
0:29:51 > 0:29:54And you returned to Bernshaw waiting for a place here.
0:29:59 > 0:30:00The social worker on the case
0:30:00 > 0:30:04acts as liaison between Aycliffe Centre and Mini's home
0:30:05 > 0:30:08I don't know where they're going to suggest on Friday.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13We've got to wait and see, and we have got to be
0:30:13 > 0:30:16prepared for the fact that it may be a fairish distance away.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19We want him to spend a full weekend at home
0:30:19 > 0:30:22Yes, this will obviously be taken into account.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25Um...and...
0:30:25 > 0:30:27you know, I think, at the moment you're going down every weekend
0:30:27 > 0:30:34taking him out every weekend and it, obviously,
0:30:34 > 0:30:37may be too far away for this to be possible every weekend.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40Is there no possibility as a parent sitting in on this meeting? No
0:30:40 > 0:30:44No, I'm afraid there never is in any of these assessment meetings,
0:30:44 > 0:30:46no matter where they are.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48The parents are never included
0:30:48 > 0:30:50'Well, I think your dad hit you didn't he?'
0:30:50 > 0:30:51What did he hit you for?
0:30:51 > 0:30:53For being naughty. For being naughty?
0:30:53 > 0:30:55So, you knew you'd been naughty
0:30:55 > 0:30:57and yet you still tried to stab him after he'd hit you.
0:30:57 > 0:31:00He did it the wrong way.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03Well, how did he do it that was wrong? In what way was it wrong
0:31:03 > 0:31:06Cos he used his fists. He used his fists, did he?
0:31:06 > 0:31:09Uh-huh. Instead of just hitting you...
0:31:09 > 0:31:11What would you have thought was fair?
0:31:11 > 0:31:14Smacking me with the belt or something like that. Mm-hm.
0:31:15 > 0:31:17I mean, it wasn't only the backside.
0:31:17 > 0:31:19He punched me right into the ribs and that.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22And what did you...? He's done that a lot of times.
0:31:22 > 0:31:26We've got to live in here with our four children every day,
0:31:26 > 0:31:28till they probably get married if they ever get married,
0:31:28 > 0:31:31and they go on to live their own lives.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33So, what we've got to do,
0:31:33 > 0:31:36we've got to have some law and order in this house...
0:31:36 > 0:31:38that suits us.
0:31:38 > 0:31:40And if they do wrong, they've got to be punished.
0:31:41 > 0:31:44And I always punish them if they do wrong.
0:31:44 > 0:31:46Hard.
0:31:46 > 0:31:48And I'll punish them hard, if they've done wrong,
0:31:48 > 0:31:49I'll punish them hard.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52It's bound to be wrong for us to be out of the friction without...
0:31:52 > 0:31:55I'll punish them hard, there's no doubt about that.
0:31:55 > 0:31:57You don't need to tell me things like...
0:31:57 > 0:32:01how old your father is and things of that sort, cos I know that,
0:32:01 > 0:32:03and what job he used to do and so on.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08I want to know more interesting things, like why...
0:32:11 > 0:32:13And you may not be able to tell me the things
0:32:13 > 0:32:17I really want to know, in fact I don't suppose you will be able to.
0:32:17 > 0:32:19You can ask what you want.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23I mean, if I said, "You tell me what's exciting about fires?"
0:32:23 > 0:32:27You'd find that an impossible question to answer, I'd expect
0:32:27 > 0:32:29Wouldn't you?
0:32:29 > 0:32:30I just like the flames.
0:32:30 > 0:32:31Ah.
0:32:31 > 0:32:32You like the flames.
0:32:34 > 0:32:35Yes, but...
0:32:37 > 0:32:39If you like the flames, one flame
0:32:39 > 0:32:42is much like another, it doesn't matter...
0:32:42 > 0:32:45what you set fire to, if you simply like the flames.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49I mean...
0:32:50 > 0:32:52..if you did it simply to enjoy the flames,
0:32:52 > 0:32:57why not set fire to somebody else's house instead of your own?
0:32:57 > 0:32:58I don't know.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Did that occur to you? No.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04There's more to it than liking flames.
0:33:04 > 0:33:05Hm.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08Well, I think the trouble started with Michael...
0:33:08 > 0:33:10It was when I was in the army..
0:33:11 > 0:33:14and Kathleen was in hospital having Michelle.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17I couldn't get any leave
0:33:17 > 0:33:21because of circumstances, and what we had to do was
0:33:21 > 0:33:25we had to bring Robert and Michael back up here.
0:33:25 > 0:33:27Robert went to his aunts, Michael went to my mother's.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29He was only just over two years old.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32Now, he was at my mother's for six weeks.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36I came back for him and he didn't want to go back home.
0:33:37 > 0:33:38Now, when he came home,
0:33:38 > 0:33:41he found Kathleen had come out the hospital with a new baby.
0:33:41 > 0:33:44The baby was in the cot and the trouble stemmed from there.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47It started from when he was about three. He just started wandering off.
0:33:47 > 0:33:50Yes. And that started, it went from staying in to wandering off.
0:33:50 > 0:33:54I mean, even the doctors saw at the time what was happening. Yes.
0:33:54 > 0:33:58You know? They just didn't see. . It's just gone from bad to worse.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00Most doctors thought it was a phase, he'd grow out of it.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02They thought it was a phase...
0:34:02 > 0:34:05It does often happen with children that age when there is a new brother
0:34:05 > 0:34:09or sister, that this happens, but it is a phase that they grow out of.
0:34:09 > 0:34:11In Michael's case, this hasn't happened.
0:34:12 > 0:34:14They've come, your parents, to see you sometimes,
0:34:14 > 0:34:16I think, haven't they?
0:34:16 > 0:34:20At the weekend, and take you out for the day in the car. Mm-hm.
0:34:21 > 0:34:27And according to these notes, there was some time recently when...
0:34:29 > 0:34:32..your parents had a row in the car...
0:34:32 > 0:34:35and your father made your mother get out of the car.
0:34:35 > 0:34:36Have I got that right?
0:34:36 > 0:34:37Aye.
0:34:39 > 0:34:42Now, what was happening? Were you sitting in the backseat?
0:34:42 > 0:34:44Aye.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46What was the row about?
0:34:46 > 0:34:47I don't know.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49Is it to do with...?
0:34:49 > 0:34:52Me dad just went off, you know down the beach and he left me
0:34:52 > 0:34:56mam behind till she says, "Right, we'll go back." So, he got in the
0:34:56 > 0:35:00car and he started to strangle her, and she got out and I came back here.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03When you say, "He started to strangle her...
0:35:03 > 0:35:06What do you mean? He really got her by the throat
0:35:06 > 0:35:10Uh-huh. With one hand. Yes. He had one hand on the wheel.
0:35:10 > 0:35:12Yes.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15Of course, that's not the first time you've seen that happen, I think.
0:35:15 > 0:35:16No.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18Hm.
0:35:18 > 0:35:19We fight a lot, normally!
0:35:19 > 0:35:23We argue. You know what I mean We just don't get on very well
0:35:23 > 0:35:24We're both very...
0:35:25 > 0:35:27Sometimes we do, but...
0:35:27 > 0:35:31..like, difference of opinions, like, if I think it should be this
0:35:31 > 0:35:33and Kathleen thinks it should be the other.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36You know, none of us will give
0:35:36 > 0:35:39Is it a difficult question if I say, "What did you think about that?
0:35:42 > 0:35:43Yeah, it could be.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48Well, all the same, I'll ask you, "What did you think about that?
0:35:49 > 0:35:54Well, it was stupid, I mean, he s only going to get himself into trouble, isn't he?
0:35:54 > 0:35:56Well, I'm sort of asking, Mickey...
0:35:58 > 0:36:00..who's side you're on,
0:36:00 > 0:36:01uh...
0:36:01 > 0:36:02in a quarrel like this?
0:36:04 > 0:36:05Me own.
0:36:05 > 0:36:07The side you're on is your own, yes.
0:36:09 > 0:36:11Well, now, if you want to be at home...
0:36:12 > 0:36:14..what stops you being there?
0:36:15 > 0:36:16Behaviour.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19Why don't you decide to improve it?
0:36:20 > 0:36:21I have been doing.
0:36:23 > 0:36:24The trouble is, of course,
0:36:24 > 0:36:28nobody can say what you would have done if you hadn't been here.
0:36:29 > 0:36:32I just sort of glanced a box of matches as I was standing there,
0:36:32 > 0:36:36and there was a whole box of matches standing on the mantelpiece.
0:36:36 > 0:36:37I says, "Ah! I'll have them!"
0:36:37 > 0:36:40So, I just...this cupboard, I just walked in and there
0:36:40 > 0:36:43was a cupboard full of papers, and I said, "This is too much temptation!"
0:36:43 > 0:36:45I wasn't meaning to burn the house down.
0:36:45 > 0:36:49I says, "This is too much temptation. It's got to happen." You know
0:36:49 > 0:36:51it goes in me mind, I can't get rid of it, so I says ..
0:36:51 > 0:36:55"All right, I'll do it!" So, I lit the matches and, "Whee! Woompf!
0:36:55 > 0:36:58All the flames and that went, and then all the blankets
0:36:58 > 0:37:02and the flames were coming out all over, because me dad..
0:37:02 > 0:37:04this is the funny bit,
0:37:04 > 0:37:07me dad came on the roof with nowt on!
0:37:10 > 0:37:13And he doesn't, he doesn't wear anything when he's in bed, and he
0:37:13 > 0:37:19came out on the roof with nowt on and all the ladies staring at him!
0:37:19 > 0:37:21And he was all hairy! He's like a gorilla!
0:37:23 > 0:37:26You can imagine that with all the ladies in the street!
0:37:28 > 0:37:31I liked the laugh when he got out on the roof!
0:37:31 > 0:37:34He just got out of bed, he had no time to slip any clothes on!
0:37:34 > 0:37:37What did you mean when you said it was too much temptation?
0:37:37 > 0:37:40You know it just goes in my mind, "You've got to do it!
0:37:40 > 0:37:43"I've got to make that fire!" So, I did it!
0:37:45 > 0:37:47Do you often get that temptation? Aye.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49A lot of times.
0:37:49 > 0:37:51Like for nicking and that, cos it goes in and it says,
0:37:51 > 0:37:53"There's this great thing," you know?
0:37:53 > 0:37:55As if I really want to do it and so I think it's a great thing
0:37:55 > 0:37:56and so it happens.
0:37:56 > 0:38:00Temptation goes through my mind and it can't come out.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02Like, some things go in this ear and come out that way,
0:38:02 > 0:38:05whereas this doesn't go in this side and come out that side,
0:38:05 > 0:38:07it goes in there and gets stuck there.
0:38:07 > 0:38:10'If I may now summarize the problem...'
0:38:10 > 0:38:11home...
0:38:12 > 0:38:15..home has been...
0:38:15 > 0:38:19the scene of...Michael's problematic upbringing.
0:38:21 > 0:38:25There's been inconsistency of handling.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30He's experienced aggression and frustration.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36Apparently, little attempt has been made to talk through problems.
0:38:39 > 0:38:43Although parents are concerned and affectionate,
0:38:43 > 0:38:46they find Michael beyond their effective control
0:38:49 > 0:38:51'Let's have a go at treatment recommendations
0:38:51 > 0:38:53'and then we'll discuss them later on.'
0:38:53 > 0:38:55INDISTINCT CHATTERING
0:38:55 > 0:38:58'One, that his positive attributes...
0:38:59 > 0:39:02'should be capitalised on...
0:39:03 > 0:39:05'at every stage of treatment.
0:39:06 > 0:39:08'Two...
0:39:11 > 0:39:15'..his physical skills should be built up
0:39:15 > 0:39:18'in non-threatening areas, such as gymnastics, for example
0:39:20 > 0:39:24'He needs to be protected against...
0:39:24 > 0:39:28'bullying and intimidation in a larger peer group.
0:39:30 > 0:39:32'Three...
0:39:32 > 0:39:34'in an educational setting...
0:39:36 > 0:39:40'..attempts should be made to extend his potential...
0:39:40 > 0:39:43'and his very good verbal ability...
0:39:43 > 0:39:44'should be utilised.'
0:39:44 > 0:39:46INDISTINCT CHATTERING
0:39:46 > 0:39:51'The family should become the focus of intensive case board, as
0:39:51 > 0:39:52'indeed it has been,
0:39:52 > 0:39:56'as much for the sake of the other children as, erm...
0:39:56 > 0:39:58'for the sake of Michael himself.'
0:40:01 > 0:40:03'Contact between...
0:40:03 > 0:40:09'parents and child should be maintained and facilitated
0:40:09 > 0:40:13'although its effects should also be very closely regulated.'
0:40:16 > 0:40:20'Michael's social skills should be built up and
0:40:20 > 0:40:23'co-operative attitudes developed in him
0:40:23 > 0:40:27'through group activities that he can't opt out of.'
0:40:30 > 0:40:31INDISTINCT CONVERSATIONS
0:40:33 > 0:40:36'In view of the history of...
0:40:38 > 0:40:40'..antisocial behaviour,
0:40:40 > 0:40:45'and the serious risk that Michael presents to himself
0:40:45 > 0:40:46'and to the community...
0:40:49 > 0:40:51'..he will require...
0:40:51 > 0:40:55'long-term treatment under conditions of physical security '
0:40:57 > 0:41:00But certainly what we are saying is that, um, in our view,
0:41:00 > 0:41:05Michael's problems are such that we cannot entertain, um,
0:41:05 > 0:41:08for his sake and for the sake of the public
0:41:08 > 0:41:12to let him roam around freely in the community.
0:41:12 > 0:41:13Do you agree?
0:41:13 > 0:41:14THEY MUMBLE
0:41:14 > 0:41:16Right, well, thank you very much.
0:41:16 > 0:41:19We will then be making the appropriate application
0:41:19 > 0:41:22in due course and, uh, we'll let you know what's happening.
0:41:24 > 0:41:25OK?
0:41:28 > 0:41:29Sit down.
0:41:31 > 0:41:32DOOR CLOSES
0:41:35 > 0:41:37You know we had your assessment meeting this morning?
0:41:37 > 0:41:40And you've been asking me what's going to happen.
0:41:40 > 0:41:43Well, I can tell you what hasn't happened.
0:41:43 > 0:41:44You're not going back home.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49We're not going to send you back to an ordinary school.
0:41:52 > 0:41:55Um, we think your problems...
0:41:56 > 0:41:59..are...sufficiently big...
0:42:01 > 0:42:06..for some specialists to be involved with you.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08For you to receive their attention.
0:42:09 > 0:42:12We also think that some of the things that you do. .
0:42:14 > 0:42:17..um, creates problems for you. .
0:42:17 > 0:42:19and creates problems for other people.
0:42:22 > 0:42:27And that we can't really allow for some of those things to go on.
0:42:27 > 0:42:28We can't allow you to...
0:42:30 > 0:42:32..go on setting fire to places
0:42:32 > 0:42:34doing some of the other things you've done.
0:42:34 > 0:42:36Well, how do you feel about that?
0:42:36 > 0:42:38Not very happy.
0:42:38 > 0:42:40Eh? Not very happy. No, I know you aren't.
0:42:43 > 0:42:45Is that it? No.
0:42:48 > 0:42:50There isn't very much we can do about it, Michael.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57I know it doesn't make you happy,
0:42:57 > 0:42:59but there isn't very much we can do about it.
0:43:03 > 0:43:05OK, son? Uh-huh.
0:43:05 > 0:43:07What is going to happen is that you're going to be
0:43:07 > 0:43:10at Aycliffe for the next three or four weeks,
0:43:10 > 0:43:15until we've found out exactly who's going to have you where.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18And then I promise to let you know myself.
0:43:18 > 0:43:19All right?
0:43:19 > 0:43:23Promise what? I promise I will tell you where you are going...
0:43:24 > 0:43:26..and who's going to be working with you.
0:43:28 > 0:43:29OK. Right.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32Now, anything we can do to
0:43:32 > 0:43:34make your life happier whilst you're here?
0:43:34 > 0:43:35No.
0:43:36 > 0:43:37There isn't?
0:43:38 > 0:43:41You've been here long enough, haven't you? Yeah.
0:43:41 > 0:43:44Yeah. Are you getting fed up with staying in this place?
0:43:44 > 0:43:46Uh-huh. You are?
0:43:46 > 0:43:47Uh-huh. HE SNIFFS
0:43:47 > 0:43:48Yeah, I know.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53Right, well, as I said before, we don't
0:43:53 > 0:43:55think it would be right for you to go back to an ordinary school.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05It wouldn't be good for you, it wouldn't be good for other people.
0:44:15 > 0:44:16Hey.
0:44:23 > 0:44:24Go on.
0:44:26 > 0:44:27Out you go.
0:44:30 > 0:44:35Hello. Haven't I met you before He's our senior social worker, yes.
0:44:35 > 0:44:36Would you like to take a seat?
0:44:37 > 0:44:39I'm sorry about that.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42I don't know if you remember my senior social worker.
0:44:42 > 0:44:45We met before. Yes, we met back in December. Yes.
0:44:46 > 0:44:48Now, I'll move over. Yes.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56I don't think you'll be particularly pleased with this, but, um...
0:44:56 > 0:44:58Well, we'll tell you if we're not.
0:44:58 > 0:45:00We ruled out the question of him coming home, because apart
0:45:00 > 0:45:03from anything else, you yourselves have said you couldn't cope.
0:45:03 > 0:45:06Well, there's nothing guaranteed about this,
0:45:06 > 0:45:09cos we don't know yet whether they'll accept him, you know,
0:45:09 > 0:45:12they are making application from the centre for Michael.
0:45:12 > 0:45:17It's a very good special treatment centre,
0:45:17 > 0:45:19which is extremely good because they've got,
0:45:19 > 0:45:22apart from anything else, they've got a higher ratio of staff.
0:45:22 > 0:45:25It's practically a one-to-one ratio of staff to children. Yes
0:45:25 > 0:45:29They've had some really good results from this place. Yes.
0:45:29 > 0:45:32But it's in Essex. No chance.
0:45:32 > 0:45:36There's no chance. As far as going to Essex is concerned, rule it out.
0:45:36 > 0:45:38MUM: We'll think about it.
0:45:38 > 0:45:42I've thought about it, it means he's away from home and it's impossible.
0:45:42 > 0:45:43He's missing family contact and
0:45:43 > 0:45:45that's one of the main things he likes.
0:45:45 > 0:45:48He is not going to Essex.
0:45:48 > 0:45:49HE SNIFFS
0:45:49 > 0:45:50MAN SIGHS
0:45:50 > 0:45:52All I'm saying is, I hope they'll have you.
0:45:52 > 0:45:54I very much hope they'll have you.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57I'll certainly be putting on all the pressure I can so they'll
0:45:57 > 0:46:00have you, but, um, your parents will have to come to London to see you.
0:46:00 > 0:46:03That doesn't mean you won't go home,
0:46:03 > 0:46:06but I can't tell you exactly what's going to happen inside the place.
0:46:06 > 0:46:08The people inside will have... What about tomorrow?
0:46:08 > 0:46:09Eh? Did you decide about tomorrow?
0:46:09 > 0:46:11About what? The weekend?
0:46:11 > 0:46:13About the weekend?
0:46:13 > 0:46:16Well, we don't think you should go home for the weekend. Right.
0:46:16 > 0:46:17OK, son?
0:46:17 > 0:46:18ALL SPEAK OVER EACH OTHER
0:46:18 > 0:46:21But he's only 11. I agree he's only 11.
0:46:21 > 0:46:23I'm not on about that, but just look at it this way..
0:46:23 > 0:46:25You can't ask his opinion, if that's...
0:46:25 > 0:46:28Of course, you can ask his opinion. He knows where he's going.
0:46:28 > 0:46:30Does he want to come home on a weekend or does...?
0:46:30 > 0:46:33Well, he'll naturally say he wants to come home on a weekend.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35Of course he will, because he knows we're family.
0:46:35 > 0:46:37But it's maybe not the best...you know, I mean,
0:46:37 > 0:46:38he still needs treatment.
0:46:38 > 0:46:42Of course he needs treatment, but can they not do it some other way?
0:46:42 > 0:46:44Is there not an alternative school?
0:46:44 > 0:46:47Near enough to that class of school?
0:46:47 > 0:46:50In the area or even if it's in Nottingham somewhere? We can get down
0:46:50 > 0:46:53to Nottingham, I've got relations there. I could stop a weekend.
0:46:53 > 0:46:56It will have to be somewhere near Nottingham. Not happening!
0:46:56 > 0:46:59SENIOR SOCIAL WORKER: Well, this is the only unit.
0:46:59 > 0:47:00Not happening, even.
0:47:00 > 0:47:03'This is the best establishment for a kid of this age,
0:47:03 > 0:47:06'as we've said before, there aren't these establishments
0:47:06 > 0:47:09'anywhere in the country. You know, they're not spread all over.
0:47:09 > 0:47:13'This is one special unit where they get a relationship of Michael
0:47:13 > 0:47:15'to one person who he can identify with.'
0:47:15 > 0:47:17Now, they try to mould them,
0:47:17 > 0:47:19to bring them up, to socialise them,
0:47:19 > 0:47:22I'm not saying it can work, it works with some of them,
0:47:22 > 0:47:23but it doesn't work with all of them,
0:47:23 > 0:47:26but surely you've got to clutch at any straw.
0:47:26 > 0:47:31You know, I mean, I cannot promise you... Do you want him to go?
0:47:31 > 0:47:34No, I don't want him to go. I don't want him to go.
0:47:34 > 0:47:38THEY ALL SPEAK OVER EACH OTHER
0:47:38 > 0:47:41I think anything has to be tried. You think anything has to be tried?
0:47:41 > 0:47:42To help Michael?
0:47:42 > 0:47:45Well, if you know what you're doing by sending him down there. .
0:47:45 > 0:47:49Don't you put the blame onto me Don't you make me feel guilty.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51I'm not making you feel guilty
0:47:51 > 0:47:53Why are you putting a brick wall between Michael and us?
0:47:53 > 0:47:55That's what I'm getting at.
0:47:55 > 0:47:56'Can I put it this way?
0:47:56 > 0:47:59'Right, he's on a care order, which means that the authorities
0:47:59 > 0:48:02'can decide what is good for him.' You can send him anywhere, can't you?
0:48:02 > 0:48:04You're saying they've took over
0:48:04 > 0:48:07You've still got the father's rights as a father of a child,
0:48:07 > 0:48:10but you've lost the care and control of the child, which the
0:48:10 > 0:48:13courts have decided that you are unable to exercise
0:48:13 > 0:48:16so they gave the care and control to the authority.
0:48:16 > 0:48:17Right. Right?
0:48:17 > 0:48:20But, as I'm saying, if the solution is going to make...I mean,
0:48:20 > 0:48:22I can't give you a guarantee that it will,
0:48:22 > 0:48:25but this is the best solution that we can come up with at present,
0:48:25 > 0:48:29and until somebody else brings up something different, this is
0:48:29 > 0:48:34all we can try, and all we're asking you is leave it in their hands
0:48:38 > 0:48:42Today, almost 40 years on, Michael 'Mini' Cooper
0:48:42 > 0:48:46and Director Franc Roddam remain close friends,
0:48:46 > 0:48:48but their lives have been very different.
0:48:48 > 0:48:51Roddam would find fame in Hollywood, but Mini's life has been
0:48:51 > 0:48:54defined by the decision made when he was 11 years old.
0:48:57 > 0:48:59Shit.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01That happened. I'm doomed!
0:49:01 > 0:49:03Yeah, you're doomed, you're doomed!
0:49:03 > 0:49:05Yeah.
0:49:05 > 0:49:08A whole box of matches standing on the mantelpiece...
0:49:08 > 0:49:12'A follow-up film was made ten years later in 1985
0:49:12 > 0:49:15'and featured Mini watching the original for the very first time.'
0:49:15 > 0:49:17I wasn't meaning to burn the house down.
0:49:17 > 0:49:20I said, "This is too much temptation, it's got to happen."
0:49:20 > 0:49:24You never saw that film, Mini, until...
0:49:24 > 0:49:27nearly ten years later.
0:49:27 > 0:49:29Yes, that's right. I, um...
0:49:29 > 0:49:32I think it was broadcast originally in '75?
0:49:32 > 0:49:35Um, and I wasn't allowed to see it.
0:49:35 > 0:49:37Then when I made the second film ..
0:49:37 > 0:49:38in '85...
0:49:39 > 0:49:43..the first day of filming was me watching the original,
0:49:43 > 0:49:45which was quite shocking, I have to say.
0:49:45 > 0:49:48Shocking in what way?
0:49:48 > 0:49:50I thought, "Could so much really have changed in ten years?"
0:49:52 > 0:49:55Here was a little boy, he's really confident...
0:49:55 > 0:49:57very opinionated,
0:49:57 > 0:49:59very determined...
0:49:59 > 0:50:00um, intelligent...
0:50:02 > 0:50:04..but the adult...
0:50:04 > 0:50:06..who was watching the boy...
0:50:06 > 0:50:08was in stark contrast to that.
0:50:10 > 0:50:14The self-belief had been eroded over a period of time.
0:50:14 > 0:50:16I looked a little beat-up.
0:50:16 > 0:50:18Felt a little beat-up.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21And when you saw the film and you saw that little boy,
0:50:21 > 0:50:25did you think, "Yes, that's the person I still am?"
0:50:29 > 0:50:33I felt more like that's the person I want to be again.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37Without the fire.
0:50:37 > 0:50:39We'll all come in with, "I Hate The Devil", right?
0:50:39 > 0:50:40BOTH: Right.
0:50:40 > 0:50:46Now, then, after that, you both step forward
0:50:46 > 0:50:50and we'll all start singing it After that, us two step back.
0:50:50 > 0:50:55Jacqueline stays forward, she sings "I Could Always." After that, you go
0:50:55 > 0:50:58in, yous two sing "Speckled Frogs",
0:50:58 > 0:51:02then, after that, I will come in with "The 12th Of Never", right?
0:51:02 > 0:51:04Franc, when you first came into Mini's life,
0:51:04 > 0:51:06what did you make of him?
0:51:06 > 0:51:08Were your sympathies immediately with him
0:51:08 > 0:51:12or did you see that there could be problems there for...society?
0:51:12 > 0:51:16When I met him, I thought, "This kid is...
0:51:16 > 0:51:18"he's dangerous, but I think he's curable."
0:51:18 > 0:51:20That's what I felt.
0:51:20 > 0:51:21But the people in the institution,
0:51:21 > 0:51:25certainly the psychiatrist there, said to me, "You have to get rid
0:51:25 > 0:51:29"of that romantic notion in your head that people can be cured.
0:51:29 > 0:51:31"Some people just have to be managed."
0:51:31 > 0:51:33And he put Mini in that category and he said,
0:51:33 > 0:51:36"This kid should be locked away for a long time and be treated.
0:51:36 > 0:51:39Even though I'm not a professional, I disagreed.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42I thought, Mini's OK, and...
0:51:43 > 0:51:44..I thought there will come a time
0:51:44 > 0:51:47when Mini will be able to express himself without fire
0:51:47 > 0:51:51and show that, in fact, he's an OK kid and that guy was wrong.
0:51:51 > 0:51:54Did you do anything special with the stuff to make it burn better?
0:51:55 > 0:51:58Well, it depends what kind of fire I'm having.
0:51:58 > 0:52:01There's different kinds of fires? Mm-hm.
0:52:01 > 0:52:04What's the difference then? Can you explain the difference
0:52:04 > 0:52:05I could be setting the shed on fire.
0:52:05 > 0:52:08I could be having a little stick fire.
0:52:09 > 0:52:11Why did fire become your weapon your resource?
0:52:13 > 0:52:15I think, principally, um...
0:52:16 > 0:52:17..it was my only voice at the time.
0:52:20 > 0:52:23Prior to the fires beginning, um ..
0:52:25 > 0:52:29..I was being told what to say what to think, what to feel,
0:52:29 > 0:52:31what not to say.
0:52:31 > 0:52:34Um, but never allowed any form of free expression.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38When I was trying to...
0:52:38 > 0:52:41if you like...challenge what was going on,
0:52:41 > 0:52:43question what was going on,
0:52:43 > 0:52:46it was generally met with brute force, aggression,
0:52:46 > 0:52:49intimidation, threats, violence, yeah.
0:52:50 > 0:52:54Um, and that began the spiral, if you like.
0:52:54 > 0:52:58What did you mean when you said it was too much temptation?
0:52:58 > 0:53:00You know, it just goes in your mind, "You've got to do it!
0:53:00 > 0:53:04"I've got to make that fire!" So, I did it!
0:53:04 > 0:53:07Yeah. Do you often get that temptation? Aye.
0:53:07 > 0:53:08A lot of times.
0:53:08 > 0:53:12After we finished filming, Mini thought, when we were filming,
0:53:12 > 0:53:15he thought, "This is great. I'm allowed to talk, I have an opinion,
0:53:15 > 0:53:16"people seem to like what I am saying.
0:53:16 > 0:53:18"I like these guys, they're fun "
0:53:18 > 0:53:21We just got up and left, like all film crews.
0:53:21 > 0:53:25Within about a week or two, I got a call from British Rail Police
0:53:25 > 0:53:31"Your nephew has arrived at King's Cross without a ticket." My nephew?
0:53:31 > 0:53:34Anyway, I realised who it was, I went and picked Mini up.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37It happened about 18 times over a period of time.
0:53:37 > 0:53:42After 18 times, they called me and said, "It's not in Mini's interests
0:53:42 > 0:53:44"for you to see him anymore.
0:53:44 > 0:53:46"He's using you as an outlet to escape
0:53:46 > 0:53:49"and an outlet not to take the treatment seriously.
0:53:49 > 0:53:51"So, cut the ties."
0:53:51 > 0:53:53They told Mini it was my idea,
0:53:53 > 0:53:57and Mini, for ten years, thought that he'd been abandoned by his pal.
0:53:57 > 0:54:00# Love you twice as much tomorrow... #
0:54:00 > 0:54:03The second BBC film was made shortly after they reconnected,
0:54:03 > 0:54:07and followed Mini as he emerged from a decade of confinement
0:54:07 > 0:54:11and psychiatric care, reinventing himself as a comic magician.
0:54:11 > 0:54:13I'd like you to put your hands together
0:54:13 > 0:54:16and welcome the fabulous Mr Johnny Oddball.
0:54:16 > 0:54:18APPLAUSE
0:54:26 > 0:54:28Good evening. ALL: Good evening.
0:54:28 > 0:54:32Oh, quick! I'm going to ask questions later so you'll have to be quick.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34Do you know, I've got to take this off.
0:54:34 > 0:54:37I feel stupid wearing this. Do you know, if my mother saw me
0:54:37 > 0:54:42wearing this hat, a pink hat, she'd think...I'm going to take it off.
0:54:42 > 0:54:44THEY LAUGH
0:54:44 > 0:54:45'I never felt fully confident'
0:54:45 > 0:54:47in what I was doing.
0:54:47 > 0:54:51And I think, on some level, I never really believed in what I was doing.
0:54:52 > 0:54:53I think it was a mask.
0:54:55 > 0:54:58I think I used it for a while..
0:54:59 > 0:55:01..to, um...
0:55:01 > 0:55:04to mask that fact that I had just emerged after
0:55:04 > 0:55:05many years of institutional life.
0:55:07 > 0:55:10And rather than having to deal with the difficulties that
0:55:10 > 0:55:12ensue from that...
0:55:12 > 0:55:13I threw myself into the act.
0:55:13 > 0:55:16A little trick, ladies and gentlemen.
0:55:16 > 0:55:20First of all, a handkerchief, a blue one that used to be a red one.
0:55:20 > 0:55:22And...a red one...
0:55:22 > 0:55:25that used to be a blue one. You've seen this before, haven't you?
0:55:25 > 0:55:26ALL: Yes!
0:55:26 > 0:55:29After a period, it started to unravel.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33Uh, as I began to unravel.
0:55:33 > 0:55:34And...
0:55:34 > 0:55:36I haven't done any magic for about 20 years now.
0:55:38 > 0:55:40SLOW PIANO MUSIC PLAYS
0:55:50 > 0:55:55'The problem is, often in cases such as this,
0:55:55 > 0:55:59'when you get placed into a care situation,
0:55:59 > 0:56:01'at a very, very early age you're removed from the family.. '
0:56:03 > 0:56:07You then have to develop a whole new set of standards in order to
0:56:07 > 0:56:10survive the environment you're placed in...
0:56:10 > 0:56:11which are often more hostile than
0:56:11 > 0:56:13the environment you were removed from.
0:56:16 > 0:56:18Once you emerge 15 years later. .
0:56:20 > 0:56:23..those standards...
0:56:23 > 0:56:26which you've developed and kept. .
0:56:26 > 0:56:27and protected...
0:56:28 > 0:56:30..have to remain in the institution,
0:56:30 > 0:56:33because they can't be applied in wider society.
0:56:33 > 0:56:38Therefore, no sooner have you walked out of the institution,
0:56:38 > 0:56:40you're actually only equipped to remain in it.
0:56:42 > 0:56:44And, when you're alone...
0:56:44 > 0:56:46what was once a very, very bright mind,
0:56:46 > 0:56:48can actually become your enemy
0:56:51 > 0:56:54In 1990, Mini committed another act of arson,
0:56:54 > 0:56:59his first in almost 20 years, and was handed a life sentence
0:56:59 > 0:57:01Jail, secure mental health units
0:57:01 > 0:57:06and halfway houses have dominated his entire existence
0:57:06 > 0:57:08But with Roddam's help, he's recently
0:57:08 > 0:57:12channelled his experiences into a revealing new book.
0:57:13 > 0:57:16I loved every aspect of writing the book.
0:57:16 > 0:57:19I loved having a routine, a reason to get up,
0:57:19 > 0:57:23you know, it wasn't a situation of having to get up in the morning
0:57:23 > 0:57:26and then having no idea what you were going to do with your day.
0:57:26 > 0:57:30Um, this gave me a discipline, a structure, a routine,
0:57:30 > 0:57:32and I surprised myself, actually.
0:57:32 > 0:57:35I exceeded my own expectations because discipline's a quality
0:57:35 > 0:57:40that's been quite elusive for me for most of my life.
0:57:40 > 0:57:43And to suddenly develop it...but I think that came
0:57:43 > 0:57:46because I had a purpose.
0:57:46 > 0:57:50As it turned out, Mini was like this extraordinary, devoted writer
0:57:50 > 0:57:55and soon started writing massively and honestly and openly
0:57:55 > 0:57:58and we ended up with a book which was 865 pages long,
0:57:58 > 0:58:02which was an extraordinary achievement on his part,
0:58:02 > 0:58:05and then together we spent over a year editing it
0:58:05 > 0:58:08Um, what I thought was that...
0:58:08 > 0:58:10I'd always been concerned about Mini's life inside
0:58:10 > 0:58:14and what it was like to have to go through those experiences.
0:58:14 > 0:58:16I realised I didn't know half of it.
0:58:16 > 0:58:20There was a lot more to his life and a lot more to him.
0:58:20 > 0:58:24What now, Mini? After the book? What's next for you?
0:58:26 > 0:58:29Well, presently, I'm at peace more than I have been.
0:58:30 > 0:58:33Um, in terms of what the book's given me...
0:58:33 > 0:58:36it's given me back a large chunk of my self-belief.
0:58:37 > 0:58:39When I read it in its current form...
0:58:40 > 0:58:43..I saw the little lad again.
0:58:43 > 0:58:46And I actually sort of quietly said to myself, "Oh, he has come back!
0:58:46 > 0:58:48"He has come back! Great!"
0:58:48 > 0:58:51Um, I'd like to take that forward, um,
0:58:51 > 0:58:56in whatever form...I'm not entirely sure at the moment.
0:58:56 > 0:58:59I perhaps would like to do another writing project.
0:58:59 > 0:59:03Um, but I do believe...
0:59:03 > 0:59:06in whatever direction I go forward with...
0:59:07 > 0:59:09..I'll do so with more belief.
0:59:14 > 0:59:16And if you want to see the follow-up
0:59:16 > 0:59:18to "Mini", "Johnny Oddball",
0:59:18 > 0:59:21in full, it's on the red button now.
0:59:21 > 0:59:24Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd