0:00:04 > 0:00:06Can it ever be a good idea for victims and offenders to meet?
0:00:06 > 0:00:07I wanted to see him
0:00:07 > 0:00:09because I needed to tell him how I felt.
0:00:09 > 0:00:11Restorative justice,
0:00:11 > 0:00:15a process that brings victims and offenders together.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17He said that he was going to shoot me.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19I am genuinely sorry for what I did to you
0:00:19 > 0:00:20and I shouldn't have done it.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22Victims can tell it how it is.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26As long as he heard what I was going to say, that was all I needed.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28I needed him to know what he'd done to me.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31And it's being used for a range of offences
0:00:31 > 0:00:35from antisocial behaviour through to the most serious crimes.
0:00:35 > 0:00:37I walked towards him, shook his hand,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40that same hand that killed Malcolm.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Now the Government has announced
0:00:42 > 0:00:45?29 million has been made available for restorative justice.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48As long as I've got a breath in my body
0:00:48 > 0:00:50I will always promote restorative justice.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52I'm Brooke Kinsella
0:00:52 > 0:00:56and my 16-year-old brother was killed by knife crime six years ago.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58He was almost like my Big Brother sometimes
0:00:58 > 0:01:02because he would be quite protective. He was my best friend.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04I'm going to explore the impact
0:01:04 > 0:01:06of this form of face-to-face justice.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09I thought, half an hour in, this isn't working,
0:01:09 > 0:01:12and they walked out talking to each other.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15It was like a Disney film!
0:01:15 > 0:01:17And I'm going on a journey
0:01:17 > 0:01:19to find out whether meeting my brother's killers
0:01:19 > 0:01:22could ever be right for me.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25I just know personally you need somebody to blame sometimes
0:01:25 > 0:01:27and to hold on to that blame and anger maybe,
0:01:27 > 0:01:29so to come face to face,
0:01:29 > 0:01:32I don't know how that would affect somebody.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42I'm probably best known for playing Kelly in EastEnders.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45You're always going to get what you want.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48So why don't you just do what you want, all right? Kel...
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Just leave me alone for a bit.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55'Acting was my full-time job
0:01:55 > 0:01:57'until June 29th 2008.'
0:02:00 > 0:02:03A teenager has died after being stabbed in central London.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06Scotland Yard have named him as Ben Kinsella...
0:02:06 > 0:02:08'My 16-year-old brother Ben
0:02:08 > 0:02:10'was killed by three teenagers
0:02:10 > 0:02:13'not far from where we live in Islington.'
0:02:14 > 0:02:16There had been a fight that broke out
0:02:16 > 0:02:18in the pub that Ben was in that night,
0:02:18 > 0:02:20it had absolutely nothing to do with him.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24Three of those involved in the fight then took to the street.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27They were basically just looking for anybody.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29They felt that they'd been disrespected,
0:02:29 > 0:02:31they couldn't find the boys
0:02:31 > 0:02:33that had been involved in the original fight,
0:02:33 > 0:02:36so they started chasing after a group of boys on the street
0:02:36 > 0:02:37that were making their way home
0:02:37 > 0:02:38and one of them was my brother,
0:02:38 > 0:02:41and he unfortunately was the one at the back
0:02:41 > 0:02:44that didn't run as fast as the others and they got him.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48Ben was picked up on CCTV after the attack.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52He'd been stabbed 11 times.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55Initially he was able to walk away,
0:02:55 > 0:02:57but his injuries were fatal.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02We lost him a few hours later in hospital.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07Welcome to the Ben Kinsella Exhibition,
0:03:07 > 0:03:09and this is called the Ben Room.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13'My family set up an anti-knife crime exhibition and charity
0:03:13 > 0:03:15'in Ben's memory.'
0:03:15 > 0:03:16My family want to make sure
0:03:16 > 0:03:19that nobody else's brother is ever taken away from them.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22'I want to help reduce the numbers of victims.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25'I've spent the last five years campaigning against knife crime.'
0:03:25 > 0:03:28Two young kids, they got beat up and they were also murdered.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31It literally destroys you,
0:03:31 > 0:03:34you know, we didn't just lose Ben that night,
0:03:34 > 0:03:37I lost my mum and dad, technically, my sisters,
0:03:37 > 0:03:39because none of us will ever be the same again.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42But I'm also keen to find ways
0:03:42 > 0:03:46to give victims more of a voice in the justice system.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49I still think my family have not probably accepted it
0:03:49 > 0:03:52or come to terms with it, I don't think we ever will.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55Three youths have been jailed for life for the murder of Ben Kinsella.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57We'd like it to be longer.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00Life should have been life. Life should have been life.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03'Jade Braithwaite, Michael Alleyne and Juress Kika
0:04:03 > 0:04:06'were given 19 years each for murdering Ben.'
0:04:14 > 0:04:18So now I'm going to start a journey to explore a form of justice
0:04:18 > 0:04:19that's being used more and more,
0:04:19 > 0:04:22where victims meet face to face with their offenders.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26It's called restorative justice.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28It's used for a range of offences
0:04:28 > 0:04:32from antisocial behaviour all the way up to murder.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36It can be used in prison after conviction,
0:04:36 > 0:04:37but also as an alternative
0:04:37 > 0:04:40to sending offenders to court in the first place.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46It's going to be a pretty tough journey for me, I think.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49Because I'm coming at it with a slightly biased angle, obviously,
0:04:49 > 0:04:51you know, having lost my brother,
0:04:51 > 0:04:55my family then campaigned strongly for tougher sentences.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58I think restorative justice can seem like a soft option
0:04:58 > 0:05:01and I'm not sure that it's right for me.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04Asking myself that question - could I ever come face to face
0:05:04 > 0:05:06with the three men that killed my brother?
0:05:08 > 0:05:11Right now that's a no, I can't see that changing, to be honest.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15But it's a journey that I think is really important.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18I think restorative justice is being used a lot more.
0:05:21 > 0:05:23This is what interests me, I want to go out there
0:05:23 > 0:05:26and find out, right, exactly what is restorative justice,
0:05:26 > 0:05:28what forms does it take, can it work?
0:05:31 > 0:05:34My first step is to go and see a woman
0:05:34 > 0:05:37whose son was recently killed in a tragic accident.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41Amazingly, she decided to meet the person in prison
0:05:41 > 0:05:44responsible for her son's death.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49On the night of August 30th 2012,
0:05:49 > 0:05:5219-year-old friends Marc Lutman and Ian Deer
0:05:52 > 0:05:55had been out partying and drinking.
0:05:55 > 0:05:57Despite being twice over the limit,
0:05:57 > 0:06:01Marc got behind the wheel of his dad's car.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Shortly after, he crashed.
0:06:06 > 0:06:07Ian died at the scene.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10Marc survived with minor injuries.
0:06:16 > 0:06:21I just know, personally, you need somebody to blame sometimes,
0:06:21 > 0:06:23so to kind of come face to face
0:06:23 > 0:06:25and hear some answers that you don't really want to hear
0:06:25 > 0:06:28and find yourself
0:06:28 > 0:06:32possibly forgiving the person who took away your loved one, erm...
0:06:32 > 0:06:34I don't know how that would affect somebody.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45It could bring a great deal of closure,
0:06:45 > 0:06:48however I think sometimes you do need to hold on to that anger
0:06:48 > 0:06:50just to get through the day.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00Hi, Christine. Hi. I'm Brooke. Lovely to meet you.
0:07:00 > 0:07:03'Christine Deer is Ian's mum.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06'18 months on, she's still struggling with her loss.'
0:07:06 > 0:07:09I've got five children.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12Ian's my fourth child.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14Two boys and three girls,
0:07:14 > 0:07:15he's my second son.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20He was 19 when he had his accident.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26It's almost impossible to put into words
0:07:26 > 0:07:29kind of...what this does to your life
0:07:29 > 0:07:32just to lose a member of your family,
0:07:32 > 0:07:36but what have the past 18 months been like for you and your family?
0:07:37 > 0:07:38It's...
0:07:40 > 0:07:42I do not know. You get by because you have to.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45You have to carry on. I've got other children.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49You've got a life to lead and you have to get on with it,
0:07:49 > 0:07:52but it is pretty devastating, as you must know.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55And so was Marc eventually charged?
0:07:55 > 0:07:56He was charged.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58He did admit to it,
0:07:58 > 0:08:00he's always said that he was guilty,
0:08:00 > 0:08:04he's always accepted responsibility over what happened.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10At court the judge said this was a case of youthful folly
0:08:10 > 0:08:13and that Ian had contributed to the crash
0:08:13 > 0:08:15with some of his actions that night.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19Marc was sentenced to 40 months in prison.
0:08:21 > 0:08:23Christine had met Marc only once before
0:08:23 > 0:08:26when she was phoned by Victim Support
0:08:26 > 0:08:29and asked if she'd like restorative justice.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32Last October she met Marc in Lincoln prison
0:08:32 > 0:08:34three months after he was sentenced.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37Christine knew what she wanted from the meeting
0:08:37 > 0:08:39and they spoke for nearly an hour.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44I needed to do it as a mum
0:08:44 > 0:08:46and be caring towards him,
0:08:46 > 0:08:50how I would want Ian to be treated...
0:08:50 > 0:08:54Do you know what I mean? Yes.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57I wanted there to be some respect
0:08:57 > 0:09:00and I've always tried to treat Marc
0:09:00 > 0:09:02as I would have wanted Ian to be treated
0:09:02 > 0:09:04if it was the other way round.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06Have you ever felt any anger?
0:09:06 > 0:09:08No, I've never, ever felt any anger towards them,
0:09:08 > 0:09:10I don't feel that way.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12I know he was responsible...
0:09:14 > 0:09:17..but I don't blame him for what happened.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19What do you think he's taken away from that?
0:09:19 > 0:09:24Marc is the same as me in that he needed to tell me that he was sorry
0:09:24 > 0:09:27and I think he sort of needs to tell me that...
0:09:27 > 0:09:30I know he'd never do anything like that again.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33It was just one of those things that happened, he's learned his lesson.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36Doing the restorative justice thing, it is a positive thing,
0:09:36 > 0:09:37it's something he needed to do.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45Restorative justice has given Christine
0:09:45 > 0:09:47a new connection through Marc to her son.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53I want him to remember Ian as a friend and...
0:09:55 > 0:09:56..just for him to be a friend,
0:09:56 > 0:10:01and not for Ian to be bad memories for him, to be fun.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04He's told me stories I didn't know,
0:10:04 > 0:10:06stupid things about Ian that I never knew about.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08Yeah, I love hearing those new stories. I know.
0:10:08 > 0:10:12I'm like, "I didn't know that happened." And that's really nice.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19It was so moving
0:10:19 > 0:10:22to meet Christine and hear her story.
0:10:22 > 0:10:26I mean, she's just the most incredible, inspirational lady.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31To have the compassion that she has and the bravery and...
0:10:31 > 0:10:33the want to do restorative justice,
0:10:33 > 0:10:35not for herself, really, but for Marc,
0:10:35 > 0:10:37to enable him to move on with his life, is incredible.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40And I don't think there's many people out there
0:10:40 > 0:10:42that could bring themselves to be that compassionate.
0:10:48 > 0:10:49Even though it was an accident,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52I can't imagine doing what Christine has done
0:10:52 > 0:10:54and sit down with the person responsible.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56I've also realised
0:10:56 > 0:10:59restorative justice is not just about saying sorry,
0:10:59 > 0:11:01there are complex personal reasons
0:11:01 > 0:11:03for wanting to meet an offender face to face.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10Restorative justice, sometimes called RJ,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13was first used by a few police forces in Britain
0:11:13 > 0:11:14nearly 20 years ago
0:11:14 > 0:11:16to deal with petty criminals.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21I've come to meet the Assistant Chief Constable
0:11:21 > 0:11:23of Greater Manchester Police,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26who takes the national lead on restorative justice.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29Restorative justice is that process
0:11:29 > 0:11:32whereby somebody who's had harm caused to them
0:11:32 > 0:11:35has the opportunity to sit down across a table and meet the harmer
0:11:35 > 0:11:37and, through a conversation,
0:11:37 > 0:11:40understand why that person committed the crime
0:11:40 > 0:11:42and why they harmed them.
0:11:42 > 0:11:45And the offender is having to confront the consequences,
0:11:45 > 0:11:47the personal consequences of what they've done.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52Government-funded research into restorative justice
0:11:52 > 0:11:56claims RJ has 85% victim satisfaction
0:11:56 > 0:12:00and reduces reoffending rates by 14%.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03Our aim is, within the next two to three years,
0:12:03 > 0:12:06to see universal coverage across the UK
0:12:06 > 0:12:09where victims of crime, if they want to meet the offender,
0:12:09 > 0:12:12and where they want to take part in restorative justice,
0:12:12 > 0:12:13have the opportunity to do that.
0:12:13 > 0:12:17Now the Government is making up to ?29 million available
0:12:17 > 0:12:21over the next three years for restorative justice.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30This is the Crowhill estate in Greater Manchester.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40On a snowy evening in February, a group of teenagers
0:12:40 > 0:12:43target an elderly couple's home with snowballs.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46At one point one of the residents comes out,
0:12:46 > 0:12:50but the boys carry on pelting the house for almost ten more minutes.
0:12:52 > 0:12:55The family that suffered from antisocial behaviour
0:12:55 > 0:12:58puts their CCTV footage of the incident on YouTube.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03It prompts immediate action.
0:13:06 > 0:13:10'PC Mark Casey of Greater Manchester Police
0:13:10 > 0:13:13'meets a local housing officer, Phil.'
0:13:13 > 0:13:16This is the list of the perpetrators.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18I'm after an address for him.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21'They want to use restorative justice, or RJ,
0:13:21 > 0:13:24'as an alternative to prosecuting the boys responsible.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26'But first they need to track them down.'
0:13:26 > 0:13:29That's him. Daniel.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34All the boys have been identified
0:13:34 > 0:13:37and the first one has been called in.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Restorative justice is going ahead
0:13:39 > 0:13:41with the consent of the elderly victims,
0:13:41 > 0:13:43even though they don't want to attend.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48The police will represent their point of view.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52I've come to see what happens.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Hi, thanks for coming. Hiya.
0:13:55 > 0:13:59'Daniel is 15 and arrives with his mum.'
0:13:59 > 0:14:02So we've got Daniel and Marie, mum.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06There was an incident a week last Tuesday.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08Your name has been mentioned as one of the offenders
0:14:08 > 0:14:10and what we've decided to do,
0:14:10 > 0:14:13with your consent, is deal with it by restorative justice.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16When RJ is used as an alternative to the court system,
0:14:16 > 0:14:19it means the offender won't get a criminal record,
0:14:19 > 0:14:22but Daniel's told it's a one-off.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25So if you're involved in any antisocial behaviour
0:14:25 > 0:14:27or public order offences,
0:14:27 > 0:14:30you could be arrested now. You won't be dealt with like this again.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32It's more of a softly-softly approach.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35But the thing is, I don't want to criminalise you,
0:14:35 > 0:14:38I don't want you to have a criminal record.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41But Daniel denies any involvement.
0:14:41 > 0:14:42Did you throw any? No. Are you sure?
0:14:42 > 0:14:44Yeah, I was just stood there, talking.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46Are you saying you didn't throw any directly?
0:14:46 > 0:14:48Were you involved in that?
0:14:48 > 0:14:51No. You could have gone in the house. Or you could have walked away.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53And the reason you're here
0:14:53 > 0:14:55is because you were part of that group, do you understand that?
0:14:55 > 0:14:58The key to RJ is the offender understanding
0:14:58 > 0:15:00the impact of their actions.
0:15:00 > 0:15:02How do you think they would have been affected,
0:15:02 > 0:15:03these people who live there?
0:15:03 > 0:15:05They would have been scared.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08Is that how you'd have felt if you were at home? Yeah.
0:15:09 > 0:15:12Yeah, group of people outside my house, terrorising me,
0:15:12 > 0:15:14I'd feel scared.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17So that's the word you've used, terrorising. Yeah, it were.
0:15:17 > 0:15:22With the victims not present, PC Mark reads their statement.
0:15:22 > 0:15:27"We as a family are very, very annoyed about this incident.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30"We just want to keep ourselves to ourselves.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32"They have dragged us into this incident and baited us
0:15:32 > 0:15:34"into going outside.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37"We as a family will support the Police and New Charter Housing
0:15:37 > 0:15:40"in any action they wish to take against these youths."
0:15:40 > 0:15:45Mark and Phil want to be sure Daniel is showing remorse for his actions.
0:15:45 > 0:15:46I want to know how you'd feel
0:15:46 > 0:15:49if someone was doing it to your grandma.
0:15:49 > 0:15:50How would you feel?
0:15:50 > 0:15:56I'd feel angry, annoyed...
0:15:56 > 0:15:58and I wouldn't like it.
0:16:02 > 0:16:04That's good, that's great.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08What do you think we can do to rectify what's gone wrong here?
0:16:08 > 0:16:10I'll go and apologise.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13Do you think that would be a good idea? Yeah. I do.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18Thank you very much for your time, and I'll be in touch next week.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20Thank you very much.
0:16:22 > 0:16:27So for you guys, was that the outcome that you wanted?
0:16:27 > 0:16:30Exactly, really. Are you in agreement, Phil?
0:16:30 > 0:16:33I certainly think so. There was an apology there
0:16:33 > 0:16:37and he even agreed to go and see the victim and apologise as well.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42Saying sorry isn't always that difficult.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45I'm wondering, could it be an easy way out?
0:16:45 > 0:16:50At the moment, I think today has had a really positive outcome.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53However, how long that's going to last, I don't know.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57We will know the powers of restorative justice
0:16:57 > 0:17:02in the coming weeks and months if an incident like this doesn't reoccur.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09Greater Manchester Police say they used restorative justice
0:17:09 > 0:17:11in more than 7,000 cases last year.
0:17:11 > 0:17:14That means a lot of offenders have been diverted away
0:17:14 > 0:17:16from the criminal justice system.
0:17:17 > 0:17:22I hear quite a lot that it helps to not criminalise the offender.
0:17:22 > 0:17:27When I hear those words or when the general public hears those words,
0:17:27 > 0:17:30you can see how restorative justice can be seen as a soft option, maybe.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33It's letting them get away with the crime they've committed.
0:17:33 > 0:17:36People who commit the worst offences have to go to prison.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39They are serving their sentence, paying their dues
0:17:39 > 0:17:40and most importantly,
0:17:40 > 0:17:43they are being punished for the crimes they've committed.
0:17:43 > 0:17:48But we know when somebody who commits crime at a young age,
0:17:48 > 0:17:50once they are labelled as a criminal and they're charged
0:17:50 > 0:17:53and go through a court process and have a criminal record,
0:17:53 > 0:17:56they are more likely to offend again and again and again.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59Restorative justice gives an opportunity
0:17:59 > 0:18:01to break that cycle and most importantly,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04it allows the victim to be in control of that process.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16It's 7.30am at Ashton-under-Lyne police station
0:18:16 > 0:18:18in Greater Manchester.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21Hot Crime. This is the hot crime tonight.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23There's nothing going on since yesterday.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27The morning briefing updates officers on overnight crimes.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29It's not just antisocial behaviour
0:18:29 > 0:18:31that gets dealt with by restorative justice.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33What have we got today?
0:18:33 > 0:18:35Got an early arrest in Audenshaw.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38Most of the officers in the force are trained in RJ.
0:18:43 > 0:18:47This is CCTV in relation to an assault that's been reported to us.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51PC Faye Parker is investigating an incident
0:18:51 > 0:18:55involving two women at a pub, sparked by a row over a guy.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58A girl's reported to have been assaulted outside a pub.
0:18:58 > 0:19:04She's saying she was pushed and punched and threatened.
0:19:04 > 0:19:06This is the footage now.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08That's the mother to this girl, having an argument.
0:19:08 > 0:19:10The victim's in the doorway.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12You can see there, the suspect's quite angry
0:19:12 > 0:19:14and they're obviously having some sort of argument there.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17When she's been interviewed she's said she has pushed her,
0:19:17 > 0:19:20but it was in self-defence because she was getting pushed.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22But we can see from the camera there
0:19:22 > 0:19:24that she hasn't acted in self-defence.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27I think this is the guy that it's involving.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30Was anyone actually hurt in this altercation?
0:19:30 > 0:19:33She's saying that when she's been pushed over, she's hit her head
0:19:33 > 0:19:35and as a result, she's got a visible injury,
0:19:35 > 0:19:37so it was crimed as a section 47 assault
0:19:37 > 0:19:39because there's actual bodily harm there.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43It's probably going to be an RJ outcome.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45That's probably going to be the best resolution for it.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50Faye is hoping to use restorative justice to resolve the case
0:19:50 > 0:19:52because she doesn't think taking Alex,
0:19:52 > 0:19:55the 25-year-old offender, to court is the best option.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00Rather than criminalise the offender, it gives them a chance, really,
0:20:00 > 0:20:02to realise what's happened
0:20:02 > 0:20:04and not make the same mistake twice. Yeah.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15Both women have agreed to the RJ process.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18Faye rings Josie, the 19-year-old victim, first,
0:20:18 > 0:20:21as she has the decisive say in how it proceeds.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23I'm just phoning up obviously
0:20:23 > 0:20:26in relation to the assault you reported to us.
0:20:26 > 0:20:28But the victim isn't happy with Faye's plan.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31So there's no way you'd want to talk to her about it?
0:20:31 > 0:20:34OK, Josie, take care, bye.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39She doesn't want to see her face to face, basically.
0:20:39 > 0:20:43She doesn't want to come into contact with her again
0:20:43 > 0:20:46if she doesn't have to. She doesn't want to sit and chat to her
0:20:46 > 0:20:47and come to any agreement,
0:20:47 > 0:20:49but she would like a letter of apology
0:20:49 > 0:20:52and she'll consider the matter dealt with if she gets that.
0:20:52 > 0:20:53Some organisations we've spoken to
0:20:53 > 0:20:55say that as few as one in ten victims
0:20:55 > 0:20:57want to meet their offenders.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01Hi, Alex, it's PC Parker again. You all right?
0:21:01 > 0:21:05Good. I've just spoken to Josie about you perhaps meeting up.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08She doesn't really want to do that.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10She has said that she's still happy
0:21:10 > 0:21:13for the RJ process to go ahead, which is best for you.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16She just was looking for an apology, really,
0:21:16 > 0:21:20so whether that is something that you could write in a letter,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23perhaps apologising for the incident in the pub that night?
0:21:23 > 0:21:26And then it'll be considered dealt with at that point,
0:21:26 > 0:21:31which is the best outcome for you as well, really. OK, see you later. Bye.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34So she's agreed to the letter.
0:21:34 > 0:21:36I think she would have preferred to see her face to face,
0:21:36 > 0:21:38speaking to her and sort it out
0:21:38 > 0:21:40because she doesn't want anything to happen in the future,
0:21:40 > 0:21:42but she has agreed to write the letter,
0:21:42 > 0:21:44but she wants some help with it.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47The victim's most comfortable with a letter,
0:21:47 > 0:21:48so we've got to go with that, really.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55Josie, the victim, didn't want to appear on camera,
0:21:55 > 0:21:57but she did agree to speak to me.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01It was interesting to talk to Josie
0:22:01 > 0:22:05because she seems quite happy with the RJ process she's been offered.
0:22:07 > 0:22:09I have a worry
0:22:09 > 0:22:11how much she will actually get out of it
0:22:11 > 0:22:14and how genuine the offender will be in this case,
0:22:14 > 0:22:18because it seems to me that the offender has the best outcome.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21She doesn't get charged or arrested, she doesn't go through the courts,
0:22:21 > 0:22:23whether an outcome comes of that or not.
0:22:23 > 0:22:27She doesn't even have to meet Josie, though that is Josie's choice.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30All she has to do is write this letter, and it's hard to see
0:22:30 > 0:22:33how remorseful somebody is in a letter or how genuine they are.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40Josie believes the assault on her was unjustified.
0:22:42 > 0:22:46Alex has agreed to talk to me about it, and I'm keen to find out
0:22:46 > 0:22:48if restorative justice will solve this case.
0:22:54 > 0:22:55You know that I've spoken to Josie
0:22:55 > 0:22:58and I believe there was an incident between the two of you.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01It was decided you'd write a letter to Josie, is that right? Yeah.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04Were you told what to write or given a guide of what to write,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07or did you just do it off your own bat?
0:23:07 > 0:23:10The policeman came round and spoke to me about it,
0:23:10 > 0:23:15helped with what I'd put in it, what I'd like to say.
0:23:15 > 0:23:20I did write an apology, just saying the reason for me actions
0:23:20 > 0:23:25was because I disagreed with what was said on the night, which is true.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27I think I wrote five lines.
0:23:27 > 0:23:31I wrote a short letter, I signed it and I think he took it round to her.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35Do you feel that the police spent enough time with you
0:23:35 > 0:23:37to check that right, yep, you are sorry?
0:23:37 > 0:23:39They knew I was sorry
0:23:39 > 0:23:42and they knew I wanted it just to be done.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44It wasn't something that was planned
0:23:44 > 0:23:47but at the end of the day, she's got to take part of the blame.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51And do you think now, that will be an end to it with you and Josie,
0:23:51 > 0:23:54hopefully, now you've done what you was asked to do?
0:23:54 > 0:23:59I don't think it will, being honest, but hopefully it will.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01I mean, I don't need it.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03I don't want to be faffing about
0:24:03 > 0:24:05with childish, petty incidents like this.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07I can't be doing with it.
0:24:10 > 0:24:13I'm quite confused, to be honest,
0:24:13 > 0:24:15because I thought the definition of restorative justice
0:24:15 > 0:24:19was mediation between a victim and an offender
0:24:19 > 0:24:22and for the offender to admit to what they've done
0:24:22 > 0:24:24and to say sorry for that,
0:24:24 > 0:24:27and although Alex genuinely seems sorry
0:24:27 > 0:24:31for the moment that she lashed out, as she put it,
0:24:31 > 0:24:33overall, she wasn't sorry as to why she did it
0:24:33 > 0:24:37and I don't think she casts herself as an offender.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41So I'm wondering why restorative justice was used in this case
0:24:41 > 0:24:46and if it can even be called restorative justice, to be honest.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52I want to take my concerns about the use of a letter in this case
0:24:52 > 0:24:55back to the police.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58We've got a case with two girls,
0:24:58 > 0:25:00and the victim, it was her choice,
0:25:00 > 0:25:02she didn't want to meet her offender,
0:25:02 > 0:25:05so she received a five-line letter of apology
0:25:05 > 0:25:07but her story wasn't taken,
0:25:07 > 0:25:11so the offender never actually got to hear how that girl felt.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13So is that really a true reflection of RJ?
0:25:13 > 0:25:17Is that full impact being experienced there?
0:25:17 > 0:25:19There is a restorative spectrum,
0:25:19 > 0:25:22and for me we should always aim to be at the top end of that spectrum,
0:25:22 > 0:25:27which is victim and offender sitting like you and I are now, face to face,
0:25:27 > 0:25:32and having a heartfelt and difficult conversation about what's happened.
0:25:32 > 0:25:34There are other ways of delivering it,
0:25:34 > 0:25:37but every time you step down that spectrum,
0:25:37 > 0:25:40I think the ability to change someone's life becomes harder.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45It seems to me that restorative justice used in the wrong case
0:25:45 > 0:25:49could be a soft option, and the issues may be left unresolved.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59It's not only the police that use restorative justice.
0:25:59 > 0:26:03There are other organisations who do it on the police's behalf.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05Are you still all right to meet us?
0:26:05 > 0:26:08Rebecca Green works for a charity called Redeeming Our Communities,
0:26:08 > 0:26:12known as RoC, that organises restorative justice.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16Greater Manchester Police refer cases to RoC
0:26:16 > 0:26:18to help reduce their workload.
0:26:18 > 0:26:22RoC uses local volunteers to bring victims and offenders together
0:26:22 > 0:26:24for meetings known as conferences.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27If we can get the community
0:26:27 > 0:26:30to actually facilitate these conferences,
0:26:30 > 0:26:34the community then are dealing with their own issues
0:26:34 > 0:26:36within the community, it's brilliant.
0:26:36 > 0:26:41So the police can be relieved to deal with more serious crime.
0:26:41 > 0:26:47Rebecca has just received a case of threatening and abusive behaviour
0:26:47 > 0:26:52which will be dealt with by face-to-face restorative justice.
0:26:52 > 0:26:59He is an ex-resident of a place that supports young, homeless people.
0:27:00 > 0:27:04He verbally abused the lady who works there.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09The incident had taken place a few weeks earlier,
0:27:09 > 0:27:12when a youth worker refused to let in a 21-year-old
0:27:12 > 0:27:15who'd been recently evicted from the shelter.
0:27:16 > 0:27:20I've been invited to attend the restorative justice conference
0:27:20 > 0:27:22taking place at a local church hall.
0:27:22 > 0:27:25Take a seat. Thank you.
0:27:25 > 0:27:29Rebecca shows Karen, the victim, into the room.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31Rebecca and her colleague, Sheena,
0:27:31 > 0:27:34have had separate meetings with both Karen and Tony, the offender,
0:27:34 > 0:27:36to assess and prepare them for tonight.
0:27:36 > 0:27:40Sit over there. Welcome, everybody, thank you so much for coming.
0:27:42 > 0:27:44Following restorative justice guidelines,
0:27:44 > 0:27:48Rebecca starts with the offender in order to put the victim at ease.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51Can you just tell us what happened?
0:27:51 > 0:27:54Well, what happened is that I went to Rakes House with my girlfriend
0:27:54 > 0:27:58and a friend of mine, and Karen come to the door and told me
0:27:58 > 0:28:00to move in a snotty manner,
0:28:00 > 0:28:03so I started going mad and she stood there laughing at me,
0:28:03 > 0:28:05so it provoked me to go even more, like.
0:28:05 > 0:28:07What were you feeling at the time?
0:28:07 > 0:28:10Angry. Why did you feel angry? Because of the way she spoke to me.
0:28:10 > 0:28:11She'd never met me in her life
0:28:11 > 0:28:14and she spoke to me in such a snotty manner. OK.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19RJ rules say no-one should interrupt who's speaking,
0:28:19 > 0:28:21so Karen waits for her turn.
0:28:23 > 0:28:25Tony came to the place where I work.
0:28:25 > 0:28:30I used the intercom to politely ask Tony to move away from the door.
0:28:30 > 0:28:34And at this point Tony then started shouting,
0:28:34 > 0:28:38telling me to, "Eff off, eff off, you effing bitch",
0:28:38 > 0:28:43and then I heard that he said that he was going to shoot me.
0:28:43 > 0:28:46You're lying cos I didn't threaten to shoot you.
0:28:46 > 0:28:49OK, well, maybe I misheard that bit but...
0:28:49 > 0:28:51You're lying as well cos you wasn't scared,
0:28:51 > 0:28:52you were laughing at me, blatantly.
0:28:52 > 0:28:56OK. Well, I've not come here to defend myself.
0:28:56 > 0:29:02'It doesn't look to me like this is going very well at all.'
0:29:02 > 0:29:05Tony, you did say at the start of the process
0:29:05 > 0:29:07that you wanted a chance to say sorry?
0:29:07 > 0:29:10I do, but she should say sorry for the things she did to me as well.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13Laughing at me, she stood there laughing at me.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16Do you think that she explained that?
0:29:16 > 0:29:18Because when people feel scared...
0:29:18 > 0:29:21I didn't laugh, I didn't laugh. You was laughing.
0:29:21 > 0:29:25I'm a professional person. Not that professional cos you were laughing.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28OK. I've got witnesses to say you were laughing at me.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33'As the dispute between Karen and Tony hits rock bottom,
0:29:33 > 0:29:36'Rebecca steps in.'
0:29:36 > 0:29:38Were you laughing at him?
0:29:38 > 0:29:41No, at no time did I laugh at him at all.
0:29:41 > 0:29:48I think I heard you say earlier that if that's how it looked,
0:29:48 > 0:29:51if that's the impression that he got, then sorry.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54Yeah, I said that but there is no way I'd laugh
0:29:54 > 0:29:57at a young person who was angry
0:29:57 > 0:29:59because it just inflames the situation.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02'But then there's an amazing turnaround.
0:30:02 > 0:30:04'It comes when Karen talks to Tony
0:30:04 > 0:30:07'about what they have in common: families.'
0:30:07 > 0:30:10One of the things I wanted you to think about was
0:30:10 > 0:30:13if somebody spoke to your mum like that or somebody...
0:30:13 > 0:30:16No-one would speak to my mum like that. Exactly.
0:30:16 > 0:30:17I wouldn't allow it. There you go.
0:30:17 > 0:30:20I went home to my family and my family feel the same way.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23Cos I'm somebody's mum as well.
0:30:23 > 0:30:27You wouldn't want anybody to speak to your mum like that, would you?
0:30:27 > 0:30:28And that's what you did to me.
0:30:28 > 0:30:30'Karen's explanation of the impact
0:30:30 > 0:30:34'on her and her family prompts a reaction in Tony.'
0:30:34 > 0:30:36So how do you feel about that now?
0:30:36 > 0:30:40I feel genuinely sorry cos it's affected her family
0:30:40 > 0:30:44cos they wouldn't like it to know that someone's spoken to their mum
0:30:44 > 0:30:48or wife or girlfriend like that.
0:30:48 > 0:30:49'Suddenly, Karen and Tony
0:30:49 > 0:30:53'are seeing the situation from each other's point of view.'
0:30:53 > 0:30:56Do you want to speak to Karen directly?
0:30:56 > 0:31:01I am genuinely sorry for what I did to you and I shouldn't have done it.
0:31:01 > 0:31:05OK, and if you did think I laughed at you, then I apologise.
0:31:05 > 0:31:07But I wouldn't do that.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12I can see your face is different now from when you first came in
0:31:12 > 0:31:15and you wouldn't look at me, but I think that barrier's come down
0:31:15 > 0:31:17and I think we both understand each other now.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20I don't know what you think. Yeah, I do understand you. Good.
0:31:20 > 0:31:24You actually seem like a nice person. Thank you, that's nice.
0:31:24 > 0:31:27There's someone nice working in the project.
0:31:33 > 0:31:38You have to be brave to do this, don't you?
0:31:38 > 0:31:42Yeah, it's a bit scary. It's good though.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44I'm glad that we did this.
0:31:44 > 0:31:48I am. Yeah. It's good, isn't it? It's made me think.
0:31:48 > 0:31:49You what, love?
0:31:49 > 0:31:52It's made me think that people aren't what
0:31:52 > 0:31:55they look like all the time, how you think they are.
0:31:55 > 0:31:56I couldn't believe what I'd seen
0:31:56 > 0:32:00and had to talk to Rebecca about what had just happened.
0:32:00 > 0:32:04It's a shocking turnaround to witness in literally half an hour
0:32:04 > 0:32:07from "I'm not happy" and "You're a liar"
0:32:07 > 0:32:09to talking about baking cakes
0:32:09 > 0:32:15and literally body language changed, and it was fascinating to watch.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19I think the moment for me was when she was saying,
0:32:19 > 0:32:20"How would you feel
0:32:20 > 0:32:23"if someone spoke to your mum like that?"
0:32:23 > 0:32:28He really did soften then as well cos he's a son
0:32:28 > 0:32:30and he protects and loves his mum,
0:32:30 > 0:32:33so you have to find that little...
0:32:33 > 0:32:38I don't know, sensitive point to press on.
0:32:43 > 0:32:44I've now seen the impact
0:32:44 > 0:32:47a positive restorative justice conference can have.
0:32:47 > 0:32:51I realise an apology is just a small part of it.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54It's about understanding each other's point of view
0:32:54 > 0:32:57and creating a connection between two people.
0:32:57 > 0:32:58But, despite this,
0:32:58 > 0:33:01I still feel this is probably not the right step for me.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11For one thing, I'm not sure
0:33:11 > 0:33:15whether restorative justice can change behaviour in the long term.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19To find out, I've come to meet a former hardened criminal
0:33:19 > 0:33:21who's been through RJ himself.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26Peter Woolf was a prolific offender.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31I've robbed banks, I've broke in houses,
0:33:31 > 0:33:34some have been council houses and some have been mansions.
0:33:34 > 0:33:37I got involved quite heavily with alcohol and drugs,
0:33:37 > 0:33:39heroin, crack cocaine.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42Had you been in prison for any of these crimes you've spoken about?
0:33:42 > 0:33:46I've spent 18? years of my life in prison.
0:33:46 > 0:33:49Not all in one go, I'd get, like, five years, four years, three years.
0:33:51 > 0:33:55In March 2002, Peter set out to burgle
0:33:55 > 0:33:58just like he had on so many previous occasions.
0:33:59 > 0:34:03I just started knocking doors and this door didn't get answered,
0:34:03 > 0:34:06so I shook it about and pushed it,
0:34:06 > 0:34:11and it opened, and that was it, I was in.
0:34:11 > 0:34:13Will Riley was at home that day.
0:34:13 > 0:34:18I was just finishing off work about 5.30, getting my stuff ready
0:34:18 > 0:34:21to go to the gym.
0:34:21 > 0:34:23It was a five-storey Georgian house
0:34:23 > 0:34:25and I went straight to the top and I started searching.
0:34:25 > 0:34:29I went upstairs, top floor of my house, and...
0:34:29 > 0:34:31I opened this wardrobe.
0:34:31 > 0:34:35In the bottom was a pair of shoes, and I remember thinking,
0:34:35 > 0:34:39"The person who owns this house mustn't half be a big fella."
0:34:39 > 0:34:41And as I thought it, this voice said...
0:34:41 > 0:34:44"What are you doing here?" And he said, "I'm a neighbour."
0:34:44 > 0:34:47I said, "Oh, you know, I live across the road at number two."
0:34:47 > 0:34:50And he said, "Where's number two?" And I said, "It's over there."
0:34:50 > 0:34:53But it weren't, it was over there. And I knew exactly what he was.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55Eventually I said, "Get out of my way, I'm going."
0:34:55 > 0:34:59Stupidly, I decided to restrain him.
0:34:59 > 0:35:01And we started to fight.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05And then it all got very out of hand.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07And we rolled down this flight of stairs
0:35:07 > 0:35:11and at the bottom of the stairs I was the first one to my feet.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13There was this big china vase...
0:35:13 > 0:35:16Never put flowerpots in your hallway,
0:35:16 > 0:35:18because he picked it up and hit me over the head with it.
0:35:18 > 0:35:20I always remember to this moment in my life
0:35:20 > 0:35:25I could see the blood come out of his head, just squirting.
0:35:25 > 0:35:28I screamed at the top of my voice for someone to call the police.
0:35:28 > 0:35:32The police came and I was arrested, and do you know what?
0:35:32 > 0:35:36It didn't mean anything to me. It was a bad day at the office.
0:35:36 > 0:35:40But this encounter had a more profound effect on Will.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42From that day, I couldn't put a key in the door,
0:35:42 > 0:35:46without thinking there'd be somebody behind it.
0:35:46 > 0:35:51Peter was sent back to prison - he received a four-year sentence.
0:35:51 > 0:35:54A few weeks later Will agreed to take part
0:35:54 > 0:35:56in a restorative justice conference.
0:35:56 > 0:36:03He sat down and then he started giving the old social worker spiel.
0:36:03 > 0:36:06You know, "Poor old me, I've had such a hard life,
0:36:06 > 0:36:09"I'm sorry I done this and I won't ever do it again."
0:36:09 > 0:36:12And I thought, "Oh, no, this is rubbish,
0:36:12 > 0:36:16"this is a complete waste of time."
0:36:16 > 0:36:19And I say to Will, "Will, when we first met..."
0:36:20 > 0:36:23And he went, "Hang on a minute!"
0:36:23 > 0:36:25Oh, no, talk about denial!
0:36:25 > 0:36:28He went apeshit, he went right into one.
0:36:28 > 0:36:30I just lost it completely, you know,
0:36:30 > 0:36:33it was like an emotional fire hydrant!
0:36:33 > 0:36:36I said, "We didn't meet in some bloody bar in Islington,
0:36:36 > 0:36:37"you broke into my house!"
0:36:37 > 0:36:41And then he started listing all these things about his emotions.
0:36:41 > 0:36:43"Why did YOU hit ME?
0:36:43 > 0:36:46"Do you understand what you've done to ME?"
0:36:46 > 0:36:49How his daughter had suffered, how his wife had suffered,
0:36:49 > 0:36:53how the family unit had suffered, and it went on and on and on.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56And it was at that time that there was a change in Peter.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02I mean, talk about remorse, it was like a train had hit him.
0:37:02 > 0:37:05"Whoa, God, what is this?!"
0:37:05 > 0:37:10I felt ashamed like I'd never felt ashamed before in my life,
0:37:10 > 0:37:15I felt guilty like I'd never felt in my life,
0:37:15 > 0:37:19I felt sorry for another human being
0:37:19 > 0:37:23like I'd never felt sorry before. I felt...wrong.
0:37:23 > 0:37:25And that made a change in him
0:37:25 > 0:37:28and it's changed his life completely.
0:37:28 > 0:37:32So did you ever reoffend? Never! Never, ever reoffended.
0:37:32 > 0:37:36Never taken another drug, never drunk alcohol again.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39And it made a change in me because I put the key in the door
0:37:39 > 0:37:43and never even think about someone being on the other side.
0:37:43 > 0:37:45In the 12 years since their meeting,
0:37:45 > 0:37:48Peter and Will have become friends.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51And in 2008 they also set up
0:37:51 > 0:37:54a restorative justice charity together.
0:37:56 > 0:37:58We stopped creating victims.
0:37:58 > 0:38:00I was committing thousands of crimes every year
0:38:00 > 0:38:03so God knows how many victims was created.
0:38:04 > 0:38:08I could see that I had a huge effect on an individual,
0:38:08 > 0:38:11who happened to be an offender -
0:38:11 > 0:38:13and I thought that this is something
0:38:13 > 0:38:15that everybody should have the right to have.
0:38:15 > 0:38:18I thought Peter and I, as a twosome,
0:38:18 > 0:38:20could go out and front this campaign.
0:38:22 > 0:38:26That is a pretty incredible outcome for restorative justice.
0:38:26 > 0:38:30But can it be suitable for victims of even more extreme crimes?
0:38:37 > 0:38:40'I'm now on my way to meet a woman who was raped in 2004
0:38:40 > 0:38:44'and decided she wanted to meet her attacker five years later
0:38:44 > 0:38:46'when he was in prison.'
0:38:46 > 0:38:49I'm quite apprehensive actually,
0:38:49 > 0:38:52because this is a really, really serious crime
0:38:52 > 0:38:54and even taking the first step
0:38:54 > 0:38:58to meeting the person that raped you I think is incredibly brave.
0:39:01 > 0:39:06I'm struggling to get my head round how you even make that decision.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15I've come to meet Jo Nodding, who works as a teacher,
0:39:15 > 0:39:17to hear about the day her life changed
0:39:17 > 0:39:20and why she chose restorative justice.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23Hi, is it Jo? It is. Hello, Jo, Brooke.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26Lovely to meet you. Please do come in. Thank you.
0:39:33 > 0:39:34It was a normal Monday morning
0:39:34 > 0:39:39and at the time I was doing specialist teaching,
0:39:39 > 0:39:42teaching individual young people.
0:39:42 > 0:39:46We'd been on our own for about ten minutes and he lunged for me.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50I tried to get him off me but he was so determined,
0:39:50 > 0:39:54he pushed me on the floor, and he raped me.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58Quite violently, to the point that I thought I was going to die that day.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01Luckily I didn't, he did leave me in one piece.
0:40:04 > 0:40:08What did that do to you? What did that do to your life, Jo?
0:40:08 > 0:40:12I didn't have a life for months and months afterwards.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15I didn't live, I survived,
0:40:15 > 0:40:19I only did what I had to do to get through one day at a time.
0:40:19 > 0:40:24I didn't want to go out, I was scared if I heard anything.
0:40:24 > 0:40:26If I was out and anyone got too close to me,
0:40:26 > 0:40:29in my personal space, I just absolutely lost it.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33I would suddenly just start screaming and crying
0:40:33 > 0:40:37because I could smell him, for months and months afterwards,
0:40:37 > 0:40:38I had the smell of...
0:40:38 > 0:40:41What he smelled like on that day, I could still smell him.
0:40:43 > 0:40:47Jo's rapist was only 12 years old at the time of the attack
0:40:47 > 0:40:51but he was bigger than her and was able to overpower her.
0:40:51 > 0:40:55He pleaded guilty at court and was sentenced in 2005.
0:40:57 > 0:40:58He got life.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01But the court case did absolutely nothing for me as a person.
0:41:01 > 0:41:04In some ways it made me feel worse,
0:41:04 > 0:41:07because at the end of the court case
0:41:07 > 0:41:09the judge looked at him
0:41:09 > 0:41:13and he told my attacker that he had ruined my life.
0:41:14 > 0:41:17And I've never, ever said those words.
0:41:17 > 0:41:18And I just felt like,
0:41:18 > 0:41:21"Great(!) You have now given him total power over me."
0:41:21 > 0:41:25Because this young person can go through life, thinking,
0:41:25 > 0:41:28"Yep, I've ruined her life, I've controlled her."
0:41:28 > 0:41:32And so in some ways the court case made me feel worse, as a victim.
0:41:34 > 0:41:36Jo knew after her attacker was sentenced
0:41:36 > 0:41:39that she wanted the chance to tell him how she felt
0:41:39 > 0:41:44but it took her four years to feel ready to meet him face to face.
0:41:44 > 0:41:48In 2009, now 17, he agreed to restorative justice
0:41:48 > 0:41:52and eight months of preparation with RJ organisers followed.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59They worked so hard with me and they got me to such a point
0:41:59 > 0:42:03that I knew I was strong enough and brave enough
0:42:03 > 0:42:05to go into that meeting.
0:42:05 > 0:42:07So we arrived at the building, at about 9.15,
0:42:07 > 0:42:10and I walked in the room
0:42:10 > 0:42:14and he sat opposite to where the door was,
0:42:14 > 0:42:17and he looked like a scared little boy.
0:42:17 > 0:42:19It was complete role reversal.
0:42:19 > 0:42:21He was in control of me on the day of the rape
0:42:21 > 0:42:24and I was petrified of him,
0:42:24 > 0:42:28and, you know, he was petrified of me.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31What was the first thing you said to him, Jo?
0:42:31 > 0:42:33I thanked him.
0:42:33 > 0:42:35I said, "Thank you for coming to this meeting
0:42:35 > 0:42:36"because if you hadn't agreed
0:42:36 > 0:42:39"I would never have got this opportunity."
0:42:39 > 0:42:40I went through the whole attack.
0:42:40 > 0:42:42And you could see he was listening,
0:42:42 > 0:42:44and I got to the point where I said,
0:42:44 > 0:42:46"I thought you were going to murder me."
0:42:46 > 0:42:48When you were raping me, all my family -
0:42:48 > 0:42:51my husband, my mum, Dad - were flashing in front of my face
0:42:51 > 0:42:54because I thought you was going to put your hands round my throat
0:42:54 > 0:42:55and murder me.
0:42:55 > 0:42:58And tears started streaming down his face.
0:42:58 > 0:43:00Because he'd never even thought about that.
0:43:00 > 0:43:04He didn't realise that was the impact he'd had on me.
0:43:04 > 0:43:06Knowing she was having an effect on her offender,
0:43:06 > 0:43:09Jo explained the impact on the family, too.
0:43:09 > 0:43:12I said to him, "If you are ever a father,
0:43:12 > 0:43:15"I hope you never have to go through what my dad had to go through.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17"And if you are ever a husband,
0:43:17 > 0:43:20"I hope you never have to go through what my husband had to do."
0:43:20 > 0:43:22And he...
0:43:22 > 0:43:25You could see he hadn't even thought about that.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29And then again the tears started coming. That was good enough for me.
0:43:29 > 0:43:33I knew I was getting through to him. I knew I was, erm...
0:43:33 > 0:43:37He was now realising the full extent of his crime,
0:43:37 > 0:43:41which, up until that point, he hadn't realised. Right.
0:43:41 > 0:43:43He did apologise.
0:43:43 > 0:43:46He looked at me, straight in the eyes, and he said,
0:43:46 > 0:43:51"Jo, I am sorry. And when I say I am sorry, I mean proper sorry.
0:43:51 > 0:43:55"And I promise you, I'll never do it again." And how was it left?
0:43:56 > 0:43:59I looked at him and I said, "What I'm about to say to you -
0:43:59 > 0:44:02"a lot of people will not understand how I can say this -
0:44:02 > 0:44:05"but I forgive you for what you have done to me,
0:44:05 > 0:44:07"and if you haven't forgiven yourself,
0:44:07 > 0:44:09"I want you to forgive yourself,
0:44:09 > 0:44:14"because I want you to go on and have a successful life,
0:44:14 > 0:44:16"because I don't want you to go back to this point ever again."
0:44:16 > 0:44:19And I walked out that room,
0:44:19 > 0:44:21and I was no longer a victim. I was a survivor.
0:44:21 > 0:44:23If you can say you feel on top of the world,
0:44:23 > 0:44:25after such an awful ordeal,
0:44:25 > 0:44:28I felt on top of the world because I was me again.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31I hadn't been myself for five years,
0:44:31 > 0:44:35and from that day I was myself again.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37I had my whole life back again.
0:44:43 > 0:44:48Meeting Jo has had a huge impact on me.
0:44:48 > 0:44:52I think hearing that after the restorative justice process,
0:44:52 > 0:44:54Jo was able to get on with her life
0:44:54 > 0:44:58- she calls herself a survivor now, not a victim -
0:44:58 > 0:45:02that's... that's a massive achievement.
0:45:05 > 0:45:10I just would love the chance to tell the people
0:45:10 > 0:45:15who took away my brother exactly what they did to me and my family.
0:45:17 > 0:45:23It's only something that I am really-really-small-baby-steps considering.
0:45:23 > 0:45:26But just hearing how Jo got that power back,
0:45:26 > 0:45:29got her life back, got closure on it,
0:45:29 > 0:45:32is the first time through this whole journey of restorative justice
0:45:32 > 0:45:35that it's actually made me consider whether this is something
0:45:35 > 0:45:37I would do myself.
0:45:42 > 0:45:44At the start of my journey I couldn't contemplate
0:45:44 > 0:45:48any kind of contact with my brother's killers.
0:45:48 > 0:45:50But now I'm feeling differently about that.
0:45:52 > 0:45:56Can I have restorative justice on my terms?
0:45:56 > 0:45:58Hi, Nicola? Hello, Brooke. Nice to meet you.
0:45:58 > 0:46:02I've come to Remedi, a charity that specialises in restorative justice,
0:46:02 > 0:46:05to try to find answers to my questions.
0:46:05 > 0:46:09Myself, I am not interested in meeting the people that killed my brother.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12I don't want to look them in the eye, I don't want any apologies,
0:46:12 > 0:46:14there is nothing that they can ever say to me.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16But, I would like to say to them,
0:46:16 > 0:46:18"This is what you have done to my family."
0:46:18 > 0:46:21Whether it be through a letter or through a video...
0:46:21 > 0:46:23I would like those three men to watch that
0:46:23 > 0:46:26and, to be honest, I just think, having gone through this journey,
0:46:26 > 0:46:27it should be made compulsory.
0:46:27 > 0:46:30They have to be still willing to meet with Remedi
0:46:30 > 0:46:32and have that assessment with us
0:46:32 > 0:46:36and to explore potential involvement.
0:46:36 > 0:46:39If they said no to any form of involvement,
0:46:39 > 0:46:41we couldn't force them to do that.
0:46:41 > 0:46:44The reason for that is that, potentially,
0:46:44 > 0:46:47they could say something that could be more hurtful, or more damaging,
0:46:47 > 0:46:50and that's something we would never want to put you through. Right.
0:46:50 > 0:46:54One of the things that really upset me in court, and my family,
0:46:54 > 0:46:56was that no matter what happened
0:46:56 > 0:46:58you were not allowed to show emotion or anger.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01You couldn't cry no matter what you saw, or were confronted with.
0:47:01 > 0:47:02You wasn't allowed to get angry,
0:47:02 > 0:47:05you're not even allowed to look at the offender at some times.
0:47:05 > 0:47:09So, if your next meeting with your offender is then going to be
0:47:09 > 0:47:10if it is restorative justice,
0:47:10 > 0:47:12no matter how many years later,
0:47:12 > 0:47:15I imagine there's a lot of emotion you've wanted to display
0:47:15 > 0:47:17for a very long time.
0:47:17 > 0:47:18Definitely.
0:47:18 > 0:47:20We're very much led by you and what you are ready for
0:47:20 > 0:47:25and, you know, how you feel comfortable progressing with that.
0:47:25 > 0:47:27That takes into account the emotions you're feeling at the time.
0:47:27 > 0:47:29Just because you're angry, though,
0:47:29 > 0:47:33does that mean it's not the right time? No, no. Not at all.
0:47:33 > 0:47:36Because maybe that's...that's how you feel and that is what you want to out.
0:47:36 > 0:47:39So, if I was approached, but I was still angry, does that mean,
0:47:39 > 0:47:41OK, I don't get to do it?
0:47:41 > 0:47:42Not at all. Not at all.
0:47:42 > 0:47:45Because anger is a normal emotion to feel
0:47:45 > 0:47:47when you've been a victim of crime.
0:47:47 > 0:47:50And it's important that you get that across.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53That's what restorative justice can do.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56It can enable you to get some of that anger out,
0:47:56 > 0:47:59and for the offender to see how it's made you feel.
0:47:59 > 0:48:01Anger is one side of that.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Sad, upset... Various other emotions come along.
0:48:04 > 0:48:06But just because you're angry doesn't mean that
0:48:06 > 0:48:09you can't take part in restorative justice. OK.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12Thank you very much for answering my question. Thank you. Thank you.
0:48:20 > 0:48:22I'm almost at the end of my restorative justice journey.
0:48:25 > 0:48:29I've seen RJ used across a range of offences,
0:48:29 > 0:48:31from antisocial behaviour to rape.
0:48:33 > 0:48:36But before I can judge ultimately how well it works
0:48:36 > 0:48:38in the criminal justice system,
0:48:38 > 0:48:41I want to take one more step to find out how successfully
0:48:41 > 0:48:45it can be used in the worst case of all, murder.
0:48:50 > 0:48:51I'm on my way to Blackpool
0:48:51 > 0:48:54to meet a woman whose brother was brutally killed,
0:48:54 > 0:48:56and she later asked to meet the murderer.
0:48:57 > 0:49:01I'm really coming around to restorative justice,
0:49:01 > 0:49:03but taking that step into a room where you know
0:49:03 > 0:49:07you're going to be metres away with the person that haunts your nightmares,
0:49:07 > 0:49:09to me, is still uncomprehendable.
0:49:13 > 0:49:16On the night of January 30th 2007,
0:49:16 > 0:49:19Malcolm Benfield was out for the evening in Blackpool.
0:49:21 > 0:49:25Malcolm was 57 and worked as a chef in the seaside town.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31He was walking by the seafront when he was approached by three men.
0:49:31 > 0:49:34They wanted money for alcohol.
0:49:34 > 0:49:36They had been drinking all day.
0:49:36 > 0:49:39One of the men then set about Malcolm in a frenzied attack,
0:49:39 > 0:49:41and kicked and beat him to death.
0:49:43 > 0:49:46Hiya, Wendy. You OK? Hello, Brooke. Hello. Pleased to meet you.
0:49:46 > 0:49:48Lovely to meet you.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50Thank you so much for taking time to talk to me. You're welcome.
0:49:50 > 0:49:52Wendy Bridge is Malcolm's sister.
0:49:55 > 0:49:59People have said to me, how can you bear to go back?
0:49:59 > 0:50:00Not the place.
0:50:00 > 0:50:03It's the people. Yeah.
0:50:05 > 0:50:07He was found...
0:50:07 > 0:50:11just under those pillars there.
0:50:11 > 0:50:13He was badly beaten,
0:50:13 > 0:50:18so much that he had face imprints from the shoes.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21You could clearly see a mark of a trainer.
0:50:21 > 0:50:25And they left him, and it was about three hours before he was found.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31Police Family Liaison officers broke the news of Malcolm's death to Wendy.
0:50:31 > 0:50:35They said, "We're afraid your brother has been murdered."
0:50:35 > 0:50:40They went next morning back at nine to bring me to identify Malcolm.
0:50:40 > 0:50:44You had to identify him? Yes.
0:50:44 > 0:50:46Couldn't touch him. Yeah. Or anything.
0:50:46 > 0:50:50That's the hard bit, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. It is indeed. Yeah.
0:50:50 > 0:50:54So... I told him off for being so stupid -
0:50:54 > 0:50:57walking along here, so late at night.
0:50:59 > 0:51:02Mark Goodwin was sentenced to life imprisonment,
0:51:02 > 0:51:04with a minimum of 18 years,
0:51:04 > 0:51:06for Malcolm's murder.
0:51:06 > 0:51:09But Goodwin's conviction didn't resolve things for Wendy.
0:51:09 > 0:51:13I had no say in anything.
0:51:13 > 0:51:15The police took over.
0:51:15 > 0:51:17And the courts took over.
0:51:17 > 0:51:20We waited five months before we could bury him. Mm.
0:51:20 > 0:51:24You know, and you need to have something
0:51:24 > 0:51:27that you have control over.
0:51:29 > 0:51:33By chance, Wendy saw a programme on restorative justice in 2011
0:51:33 > 0:51:35that seemed to offer her a solution.
0:51:35 > 0:51:38"This great-grandmother wanted to meet the youth
0:51:38 > 0:51:42"who terrorised her, and ended up giving him a hug."
0:51:45 > 0:51:50As soon as I watched the programme, I thought, "That's for me."
0:51:50 > 0:51:57I must admit I always felt some degree of compassion for Mark.
0:51:57 > 0:52:00He's going to spend a lot of years in prison,
0:52:00 > 0:52:02and I felt from that point
0:52:02 > 0:52:07that this was maybe something that could help me
0:52:07 > 0:52:13have some way of knowing what kind of person he would turn into.
0:52:13 > 0:52:15What do you think Malcolm would think
0:52:15 > 0:52:18about you taking part in restorative justice?
0:52:18 > 0:52:19I think he would be very pleased.
0:52:19 > 0:52:26If I could help in any way to turn Mark's life around,
0:52:26 > 0:52:28this is my chance to do it.
0:52:28 > 0:52:32Six months ago, Wendy travelled to the high-security prison
0:52:32 > 0:52:35Mark is held at for the restorative justice conference.
0:52:36 > 0:52:43I think from Mark's point of view it was a terrifying experience.
0:52:43 > 0:52:44He was visibly shaking.
0:52:46 > 0:52:51So I got up, walked towards him, and shook his hand.
0:52:53 > 0:52:55That same hand that killed Malcolm.
0:52:57 > 0:52:59Extremely hard to do.
0:53:00 > 0:53:02And I said to him...
0:53:05 > 0:53:08.."Mark, you did a terrible thing.
0:53:08 > 0:53:10"You're being punished for it.
0:53:10 > 0:53:14"I'm not here to punish you, again,
0:53:14 > 0:53:18"but I would like to tell you what it meant to me."
0:53:18 > 0:53:23So I said, "You killed a brother who was very much loved.
0:53:23 > 0:53:26"But, now I have told you that..."
0:53:26 > 0:53:29And that's when he interrupted,
0:53:29 > 0:53:32and he spoke in such a quiet voice I had trouble hearing him.
0:53:32 > 0:53:34I had to ask him to speak up.
0:53:34 > 0:53:39And he said, "I am very sorry for what I did.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42"I think about it every day of my life.
0:53:42 > 0:53:45"And every day of my life, I wish I was dead."
0:53:47 > 0:53:49That's the only time I got angry.
0:53:49 > 0:53:54Because I says to him, "I don't want to hear you talking about dying.
0:53:54 > 0:53:59"I want to hear you talk about doing something with your life
0:53:59 > 0:54:01"so Malcolm didn't die in vain."
0:54:02 > 0:54:07And then, after that, the atmosphere changed.
0:54:07 > 0:54:10What did it do for you? When you walked out of that room,
0:54:10 > 0:54:13how did you feel? Did you feel any different?
0:54:13 > 0:54:16I felt a weight had lifted off my shoulders.
0:54:16 > 0:54:18It took the demon away from me.
0:54:18 > 0:54:24Before, he was that evil person, who had killed.
0:54:24 > 0:54:29And he became just an ordinary young man.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32Nothing special about him.
0:54:33 > 0:54:37Just an ordinary young man that drank too much,
0:54:37 > 0:54:39couldn't handle it,
0:54:39 > 0:54:44and was paying for that for the best part of his life.
0:54:49 > 0:54:54For Wendy, meeting Mark was about having some influence over his life.
0:54:54 > 0:54:57And speaking to Wendy has made things very clear for me.
0:54:59 > 0:55:04My mind has been changed very much on restorative justice,
0:55:04 > 0:55:05but Wendy convinced me of that more
0:55:05 > 0:55:08that it is not right for me to do now.
0:55:08 > 0:55:10I do not have compassion, I still have a lot of anger.
0:55:10 > 0:55:12And it's clear I'm not ready.
0:55:12 > 0:55:15And one thing I have learned from this journey is that
0:55:15 > 0:55:18you absolutely have to be ready.
0:55:25 > 0:55:28I began this journey thinking restorative justice
0:55:28 > 0:55:31was all for offenders' benefit and a soft option.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34I wondered how it could help victims.
0:55:36 > 0:55:37In the last few months, though,
0:55:37 > 0:55:40I've met the youngster given a second chance.
0:55:40 > 0:55:44Better than being arrested. Remember they said this is last chance. Yeah.
0:55:44 > 0:55:48I've witnessed the courage and power of a restorative justice conference,
0:55:48 > 0:55:51and the impact on offenders.
0:55:51 > 0:55:55You have to be brave to do this, don't you, I think? Aye.
0:55:55 > 0:55:58And I've met the victims who've regained control.
0:55:58 > 0:56:02On that day, I was myself again. I had my whole life back again.
0:56:03 > 0:56:05Now, I see RJ differently.
0:56:07 > 0:56:11I really think that restorative justice is a process for victims,
0:56:11 > 0:56:14and should be offered to them no matter what it takes.
0:56:16 > 0:56:21I'm not ready yet, to meet my brother's killers face to face,
0:56:21 > 0:56:23although now I know I can choose restorative justice
0:56:23 > 0:56:26when the time is right for me.
0:56:57 > 0:56:59An illegal human cloning trial.
0:57:00 > 0:57:03Are you sure you want to know what this is all about?