0:00:02 > 0:00:06This programme contains some strong language and scenes which some viewers may find disturbing.
0:00:06 > 0:00:10My name is Robb Leech, and I'm a film-maker.
0:00:10 > 0:00:15Four years ago, I made a documentary about my stepbrother, Rich.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19We grew up together in a seaside town in Dorset.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25Two white boys from a middle-class family.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32But in 2009, he converted to an extreme brand of Islam.
0:00:34 > 0:00:38You foolish people risk your life for these degenerate rulers,
0:00:38 > 0:00:41these people that conspire to misguide you into the hellfire.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43I found him living in a strange new world,
0:00:43 > 0:00:47and he changed his name from Rich to Salahuddin.
0:00:47 > 0:00:50- What's your name?- Salahuddin. - Salahuddin.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53There were loads of guys doing outrageous things
0:00:53 > 0:00:56like burning the American flag on the anniversary of 9/11.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00Burn, burn, USA! Burn, burn, USA!
0:01:02 > 0:01:05And there was one particular guy they all looked up to
0:01:05 > 0:01:07called Anjem Choudary, who was always on the TV.
0:01:07 > 0:01:12You seem not, if I'm right, to like Britain very much, and...
0:01:12 > 0:01:16Everyone talked about fighting jihad and implementing an Islamic state.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19When we establish Sharia, we will expand the borders
0:01:19 > 0:01:22and take the fight to the enemy, rather than them occupying our land.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25The shoe will be on the other foot, Insha'Allah.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27But he was no ordinary Muslim.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31My step-brother had become a radical Islamist.
0:01:31 > 0:01:37And four years on, he's now in prison, a convicted terrorist.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50Rich and I grew up in the seaside town of Weymouth.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54My dad and his mum married in 1992.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58I always looked up to him as an older brother.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02But by our mid-twenties, we'd grown apart.
0:02:08 > 0:02:13When in 2009, I read he had been converted by Anjem Choudary,
0:02:13 > 0:02:15a man the papers call a hate preacher,
0:02:15 > 0:02:19I decided to make a film in an attempt to reconnect with him.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23There's no bombs in your bags?
0:02:23 > 0:02:26No, Insha'Allah, unless the kuffar have planted one there
0:02:26 > 0:02:28in order to try and put me inside, I don't know,
0:02:28 > 0:02:31but as far as I know there's nothing there, Insha'Allah.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33So if I hear ticking, it's just...
0:02:33 > 0:02:35Well, maybe an alarm clock or something.
0:02:35 > 0:02:40After a year of hanging out, and filming, I was saying goodbye
0:02:40 > 0:02:42to Rich as he prepared to fly out for his first Hajj.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44But his views were still hard to accept.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47While I'm gone, the brothers are going to be doing a demonstration.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50I think it's called "British soldiers will burn in hell",
0:02:50 > 0:02:51or something like that.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55'All of my pent-up feelings escaped in a frustrated outburst'.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57You tell me to my face that I'm a filthy kafir.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59I've never said that to you.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02You won't even touch me unless you use your "dirty" hand.
0:03:02 > 0:03:04I've called you a filthy kafir, Robb.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06I don't shake your hand, because Islamically,
0:03:06 > 0:03:09the sunnah is to shake with the left hand. That is the sunnah.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12But it's permissible to shake with the right hand.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14You know, there's a reason and a wisdom behind that,
0:03:14 > 0:03:18and, er, I thought you understood that, and it's nothing personal.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21You treat everyone who is not an Islamist as sub-human,
0:03:21 > 0:03:23by the way you talk.
0:03:23 > 0:03:24That's not the case.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27The people I've met, the lectures I've gone to.
0:03:27 > 0:03:28It's clear to see that's the way it is.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30I don't think that's the case.
0:03:31 > 0:03:36'It wasn't how I wanted to say goodbye.
0:03:36 > 0:03:41'When he returned, I was touched by his wish to apologise.'
0:03:42 > 0:03:45Certainly, if a non-Muslim comes to you, and they're open-minded
0:03:45 > 0:03:48and interested in finding out about Islam,
0:03:48 > 0:03:52then we shouldn't make them have those kind of feelings
0:03:52 > 0:03:56that you've described of inferiority or whatever else it is,
0:03:56 > 0:03:59because that's not an inclining atmosphere to be in,
0:03:59 > 0:04:01so if that is how you felt, then obviously
0:04:01 > 0:04:04I apologise on my behalf, and I'm sure the brothers don't mind either.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08'He seemed to have done some soul-searching,
0:04:08 > 0:04:10'and was trying to get things back on track'.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14More importantly, I think is the fact
0:04:14 > 0:04:17that I need to engage more with my own family.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21I need to make more effort to try and show them
0:04:21 > 0:04:24the good sides of Islam, the things that they might like.
0:04:25 > 0:04:30So what happened next was a complete shock.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32REPORTER: Richard Dart, a white Muslim convert
0:04:32 > 0:04:34from a Dorset seaside town,
0:04:34 > 0:04:36was jailed today for six years.
0:04:36 > 0:04:40# I hurt myself today... #
0:04:40 > 0:04:43Dart was heard saying that things had to be done.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47These were serious individuals.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49They talked about how to make explosives
0:04:49 > 0:04:51using home-made chemicals,
0:04:51 > 0:04:54and their intent was to commit terrorist attacks overseas.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58# What have I become? #
0:04:58 > 0:05:01Today is 25th April, 2013,
0:05:01 > 0:05:04and Rich has just been sentenced
0:05:04 > 0:05:09to six years in prison for preparing to commit acts of terror.
0:05:14 > 0:05:16The really poignant thing for me
0:05:16 > 0:05:19is the idea that two weeks before he was arrested,
0:05:19 > 0:05:22I was sitting in a coffee shop with him in Ealing.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25And in retrospect, now,
0:05:25 > 0:05:31I know that he was planning on going to Pakistan
0:05:31 > 0:05:33and not necessarily intending on coming back.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36The court heard his plans to go to Pakistan,
0:05:36 > 0:05:42near the Afghan border, to seek terror training with the Taliban.
0:05:42 > 0:05:43I'm shocked.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47Partly, I'm angry because Richard has ended up doing what he's done
0:05:47 > 0:05:51and having the extreme beliefs that he has.
0:05:51 > 0:05:57And part of me is quite angry about that, but I don't really know...
0:05:57 > 0:05:59I don't really know who to blame for that.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05I want to figure out what's happening, what is going on.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08How is it allowed to happen? How can it happen?
0:06:08 > 0:06:10What is it people are drawn to?
0:06:10 > 0:06:14And what can be done, potentially, to stop it from happening?
0:06:17 > 0:06:21Now that he's been sentenced, I want to speak to him.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23Part of me just wants to say hi,
0:06:23 > 0:06:27and, um, have a laugh with him, because we always had a laugh.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34And the other half wants to ask him.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40"How could you think that you were doing the right thing?"
0:06:45 > 0:06:49A few weeks later, something else made me even more determined.
0:06:49 > 0:06:51What happened yesterday
0:06:51 > 0:06:54in Woolwich has sickened us all.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58On our televisions last night, and in our newspapers this morning,
0:06:58 > 0:07:02we have all seen images that are deeply shocking.
0:07:02 > 0:07:04I apologise that women had to witness this today.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06But in our lands, our women have to see the same.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08You people will never be safe.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10Remove your government, they don't care about you.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14Like Rich, Michael Adebolajo was a regular at protests,
0:07:14 > 0:07:16organised by Anjem Choudary.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20I'd be surprised if he and Rich didn't know each other.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28Several of Rich's Islamist brothers have since ended up behind bars.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45Often in the wings was Choudary,
0:07:45 > 0:07:50now dubbed by many papers as the most hated man in Britain.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53All of you are in one camp, the camp of non-Islam.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55If I'm judged an apostate by a sharia judge,
0:07:55 > 0:07:58would I be executed in your caliphate?
0:07:58 > 0:08:00You know that you have left the deen of Islam because...
0:08:00 > 0:08:04Anjem was master of ceremonies at Rich's conversion,
0:08:04 > 0:08:07as well as being a leader of Al-Muhajiroun,
0:08:07 > 0:08:11the now banned radical Islamist group he had embraced.
0:08:11 > 0:08:13The people that I study with and myself,
0:08:13 > 0:08:15we have a different belief in a sense
0:08:15 > 0:08:18to what many other Muslims seem to believe.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20You're jihadists?
0:08:20 > 0:08:22Yeah, absolutely, I support the concept of jihad
0:08:22 > 0:08:24as part of being a Muslim.
0:08:24 > 0:08:26It's very important that sharia is implemented
0:08:26 > 0:08:29and I support it wholeheartedly.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32To his followers, Anjem is a father figure,
0:08:32 > 0:08:34a charismatic preacher and mentor
0:08:34 > 0:08:37responsible for helping to shape the values
0:08:37 > 0:08:40and beliefs of those who look up to him.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42He talks a good talk.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44I'm not saying he intends it,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47but some of those who listen end up behind bars.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51Anjem has always kept himself out of trouble.
0:08:51 > 0:08:56- Will you apologise?- Radicalisation is calling for the sharia nowadays.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58Radicalisation is exposing the British government,
0:08:58 > 0:09:01radicalisation is commanding good and forbidding evil.
0:09:01 > 0:09:02We say, and we've always said,
0:09:02 > 0:09:05that we live here under a covenant of security.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07It's not allowed to target innocent people,
0:09:07 > 0:09:09in return for our life and wealth being secure
0:09:09 > 0:09:12and we've said that over the years...
0:09:12 > 0:09:15He also believes in this thing called a covenant of security,
0:09:15 > 0:09:18which forbids attacking the country he's living in,
0:09:18 > 0:09:20if it isn't openly attacking him.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31I'm keen to revisit some of the people and places I came across
0:09:31 > 0:09:32in my first film.
0:09:34 > 0:09:40First up is an old acquaintance, convert Abdullah Deen.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42HE CHANTS
0:09:44 > 0:09:47I first met Abdullah at another protest, four years ago,
0:09:47 > 0:09:50when he was a relatively new convert.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52What brought me to Islam
0:09:52 > 0:09:55was that my sister died of a cocaine overdose,
0:09:55 > 0:09:59in this society, at the age of 18. And I say that if this society
0:09:59 > 0:10:01is prepared to look after the youngsters,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04then you have to look after these people in this society
0:10:04 > 0:10:06and not introduce them to that lifestyle.
0:10:06 > 0:10:09An active supporter at Islamist protests,
0:10:09 > 0:10:13Abdullah Deen also had his own perfume range.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15This is the business side of Abdullah Deen.
0:10:15 > 0:10:16This is your trade?
0:10:16 > 0:10:18Yes, I have a wife to look after.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21We got to know each other through Rich
0:10:21 > 0:10:24and to my surprise, I found I really quite liked him.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26See you later. Hopefully,
0:10:26 > 0:10:29Allah will guide you and open your heart, Insha'Allah.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31But it's nice to see you again, as always, man.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34It's been a few years since we last hung out.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36But I want to find out what he thinks about Rich.
0:10:41 > 0:10:42Good.
0:10:48 > 0:10:52I'm at an Islamist protest outside the Iranian embassy.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56It's been a while since I've seen so many beards and burkas.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58I'm feeling quite nostalgic.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02- Iranian government, go to hell! - Iranian government, go to hell!
0:11:02 > 0:11:04But no time for reminiscing -
0:11:04 > 0:11:08I'm keen to speak to Abdullah, and he's quick to defend Rich.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11What is apparent is that there's no evidence
0:11:11 > 0:11:13to say that he had any plan in place,
0:11:13 > 0:11:15no evidence to say any plan was being executed,
0:11:15 > 0:11:19or even near to being executed, you know.
0:11:19 > 0:11:20Me, myself, I've never fought,
0:11:20 > 0:11:24but to the West, I'd probably be considered a terrorist.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27Not because of my fighting or blowing myself up,
0:11:27 > 0:11:28but just the idea that I carry
0:11:28 > 0:11:31that only Allah's law has the right to be on earth.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34And the Muslims have the right to defend themselves
0:11:34 > 0:11:36against the foreign occupation from the West.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40I believe it's another way to try and stop the call of Islam,
0:11:40 > 0:11:43to stop the establishment of an Islamic state on the Earth.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46'It's not surprising to me
0:11:46 > 0:11:48'that Abdullah Deen thinks Rich is innocent.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54'But I can't argue with the fact that he pleaded guilty.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56'I'd seen him just weeks before his arrest,
0:11:56 > 0:12:00'and we'd talked about the future, and his plans to start a business.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04'It was no more than a cover story.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07'I can't get my head around the fact that he must have known
0:12:07 > 0:12:10'it might have been the last time we ever met.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16'I really felt like we'd come a long way
0:12:16 > 0:12:18'and that things were on the mend.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21'I'm angry, but it's hard to make sense of things
0:12:21 > 0:12:23'through a wall of silence.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27'I hope I can visit him in prison.'
0:12:34 > 0:12:37I don't want to speak to pundits or politicians.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40I feel like I've heard it all before,
0:12:40 > 0:12:42and we're still in this mess.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45I want some fresh perspectives.
0:12:47 > 0:12:49Hello.
0:12:49 > 0:12:50Lewis, how are you doing?
0:12:50 > 0:12:52- Very well. Good to meet you. How are you doing, Robb?- Not bad.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54Come on in.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58'After seeing my first film and hearing about Rich's conviction,
0:12:58 > 0:13:00'PhD student Lewis Herrington
0:13:00 > 0:13:03'has invited me over for an intelligence debrief.'
0:13:03 > 0:13:07This is literally where I do all my work.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12'He certainly takes his research seriously.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14'I feel like I'm in an episode of CSI.'
0:13:17 > 0:13:20Islamic fundamentalism is essentially an ideology,
0:13:20 > 0:13:23separate in a sense from Islam itself.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25In trying to understand
0:13:25 > 0:13:27what I refer to as the UK Islamist movement,
0:13:27 > 0:13:30I've separated people who are involved in this.
0:13:30 > 0:13:35You know, I can readily identify preachers, fundraisers,
0:13:35 > 0:13:40jihadists, facilitators, and terrorists.
0:13:40 > 0:13:41- Can I just ask?- Mmm.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45You have Richard as a jihadist, not a terrorist.
0:13:45 > 0:13:51Yeah, this is a really fundamental distinction between terrorists,
0:13:51 > 0:13:54and, um, jihadists,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57because a great number of young British Muslim lads
0:13:57 > 0:14:00are very empathic about what's going on
0:14:00 > 0:14:03in various different conflicts all over the world.
0:14:03 > 0:14:07They hear stories given to them by Anjem Choudary
0:14:07 > 0:14:09about Indian troops, you know,
0:14:09 > 0:14:11raping and killing Muslims in Kashmir.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13And they want to sign up,
0:14:13 > 0:14:18they want to go out there and pro-actively defend fellow Muslims.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21They're not about to go and blow themselves up
0:14:21 > 0:14:23on the London Underground.
0:14:23 > 0:14:25That's not... that's not what they're thinking.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28Men like your brother, Richard Dart,
0:14:28 > 0:14:31from the available evidence, you know, wanted to go out,
0:14:31 > 0:14:36train as a Mujahideen, and fight predominantly in Afghanistan.
0:14:36 > 0:14:41'So in Lewis' mind, Rich isn't really a terrorist at all -
0:14:41 > 0:14:43'he wasn't planning on killing innocent civilians.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46'He wanted to go to Pakistan to fight on the battlefield
0:14:46 > 0:14:49'in what he believes to be a just war.'
0:14:52 > 0:14:55Next up, a video of another white convert
0:14:55 > 0:14:57who travelled all the way to Syria.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01ON VIDEO: '..helicopter shot down.'
0:15:01 > 0:15:04There you go, there's quite a similarity.
0:15:04 > 0:15:08White Muslim revert. These guys are over in Syria.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10They look like they're having a brilliant time.
0:15:10 > 0:15:11Having a whale of a time!
0:15:11 > 0:15:14He's having the time of his life. This is fantastic.
0:15:14 > 0:15:17You know, because if you are a fundamentalist Muslim,
0:15:17 > 0:15:21your day involves praying, you know, five times a day.
0:15:21 > 0:15:27There's no drinking, no smoking, no nightclubs.
0:15:27 > 0:15:31It tends to be spending a lot of time in the coffee shop
0:15:31 > 0:15:34and talking about jihad,
0:15:34 > 0:15:37talking about all these guys that are overseas,
0:15:37 > 0:15:39fighting for their Muslim brothers.
0:15:39 > 0:15:44How fantastically exciting a prospect that must be.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47I think that's ultimately where your brother wanted to go.
0:15:51 > 0:15:55'I can see the allure of foreign adventures with brothers-in-arms.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01'For someone with not much going on, it must be quite intoxicating.'
0:16:01 > 0:16:06That's what your brother wanted. To be that guy, I think.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09'Before I leave, I want to know what Lewis thinks about Anjem Choudary.'
0:16:09 > 0:16:13I think whenever you read his tweets and all his stuff,
0:16:13 > 0:16:17he deliberately tries to be as provocative as possible.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20I wouldn't be surprised if he was in Big Brother.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22I could literally just see that.
0:16:22 > 0:16:26Next year, Celebrity Big Brother, we've got Anjem Choudary.
0:16:26 > 0:16:31Drink and fornication aren't really Anjem's thing.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35But he does specialise in his own form of reality TV.
0:16:35 > 0:16:40For example, here is the actual moment he converted my stepbrother,
0:16:40 > 0:16:43recorded and broadcast to the world via YouTube.
0:16:43 > 0:16:48It's the last time I saw Rich, kafir-clad and without a beard.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54As a white convert, Rich was quite a catch,
0:16:54 > 0:16:57and Anjem made sure he got pride of place during media excursions.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59REPORTER: Choudary wants to establish
0:16:59 > 0:17:02an Islamic state in Britain.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05These men study under Choudary at the London School of Sharia.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08Salahuddin, formerly known as Richard,
0:17:08 > 0:17:10has been a Muslim for just five weeks.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13Choudary provided him with a certificate of conversion.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17Rich was no longer Rich. He was Salahuddin.
0:17:17 > 0:17:22If Salahuddin decides he no longer wishes to part of the faith,
0:17:22 > 0:17:26the penalty under full sharia law is death.
0:17:28 > 0:17:30Anjem's love of the media spotlight
0:17:30 > 0:17:33means he's really not that hard to get hold of.
0:17:34 > 0:17:38But I should have known we wouldn't be meeting in Starbucks.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41# Just a perfect day... #
0:17:41 > 0:17:43He requests that I book a conference room
0:17:43 > 0:17:46at a favourite travel hotel in Chingford.
0:17:46 > 0:17:51# And then later, when it gets dark, we go home.... #
0:17:55 > 0:17:58KNOCK AT DOOR
0:18:04 > 0:18:06- Hello, Robb.- Hello. - How's it going?- Not bad.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10- You've got the water out already. - Yeah.- I was going to have a latte,
0:18:10 > 0:18:14or a coffee. The coffee comes with the room, doesn't it?
0:18:14 > 0:18:16Yeah, yeah. Help yourself.
0:18:18 > 0:18:22Yes, Robb, so you want to become a Muslim?
0:18:22 > 0:18:26Um...I need some more time.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32What if you don't have any time? What if you get run over by a bus
0:18:32 > 0:18:36when you leave the Holiday Express, and end up in the hellfire?
0:18:38 > 0:18:39Then so be it.
0:18:42 > 0:18:44Famous last words, eh?
0:18:46 > 0:18:48'It's a good start.
0:18:48 > 0:18:50'I want to ask Anjem what he knows
0:18:50 > 0:18:53'about Rich's plans to seek terror training in Pakistan.'
0:18:53 > 0:18:58Actually, I can't remember the last time that I saw him.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01Er, possibly around 2011, maybe 2012, um...
0:19:01 > 0:19:07Brother Salahuddin began, um, keeping himself more to himself,
0:19:07 > 0:19:09over the last couple of years.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13And obviously, I think he was arrested in, er,
0:19:13 > 0:19:17sometime in 2011, in July, was it?
0:19:17 > 0:19:20- Or was it 2012? I can't remember. - What's your take on that?
0:19:20 > 0:19:23If Brother Salahuddin was in fact going to Afghanistan
0:19:23 > 0:19:25to stand with his fellow Muslims
0:19:25 > 0:19:26to defend them from attack,
0:19:26 > 0:19:29by, you know, outsiders, be they Americans or British,
0:19:29 > 0:19:33then it's not something that is unusual.
0:19:33 > 0:19:35When you talk about Islam,
0:19:35 > 0:19:37I have to say that most of the Muslims I meet,
0:19:37 > 0:19:39they point the finger at you
0:19:39 > 0:19:44and say you're responsible for brainwashing people like Richard.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46Well, you know, if brains need to be washed,
0:19:46 > 0:19:47then surely it's a good thing?
0:19:47 > 0:19:51They're washed of the corruption and false ideas.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54I think we all need our thoughts washed from time to time.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57'Rich indeed moved away from East London
0:19:57 > 0:19:59'about a year before his arrest.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02'But I sense Anjem is using the opportunity
0:20:02 > 0:20:04'to get his message across.
0:20:04 > 0:20:05'And wow - what a message.'
0:20:05 > 0:20:08What's a true democracy?
0:20:08 > 0:20:10Maybe Germany under Hitler was a true democracy.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13No, that was a dictatorship.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15Oh, and Britain is not a dictatorship?
0:20:15 > 0:20:21It's not a dictatorship, and it's not... It's not Nazi Germany.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24It's as bad in many respects.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26- It's not as bad.- I mean, talk to the average Muslim
0:20:26 > 0:20:30about how he's stopped at the airport under the Terrorism Act...
0:20:30 > 0:20:34I speak to a lot of Muslims, and I understand it can be...
0:20:34 > 0:20:37- I know it's difficult. - ..Rummaging through your underwear,
0:20:37 > 0:20:39- and all your personal belongings. - I'm not saying it's right.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41That's as bad as Nazi Germany.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44You might as well be in a Nazi Germany concentration camp,
0:20:44 > 0:20:46when you come to Gatwick or Heathrow Airport,
0:20:46 > 0:20:48the way that they treat you.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52- Like second-class citizens. - Gatwick is nothing like Auschwitz.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55Well, you know, I mean, there's a lot of fabrication
0:20:55 > 0:20:58about what happened to people in Germany and, er, Austria.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00But the point is that Muslims are treated
0:21:00 > 0:21:03as if they're living in an apartheid state in Britain today.
0:21:03 > 0:21:09'Is this Holocaust denial? I'm not sure. But I'm completely astonished.
0:21:10 > 0:21:15'I accept that Anjem had no role in Rich's plans or terror training.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17'But he undoubtedly played a pivotal part
0:21:17 > 0:21:19'in developing Rich's extremist convictions.'
0:21:19 > 0:21:21- It's been a pleasure.- Thanks.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26Look forward to the day when you become a Muslim.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28Yeah, OK. Don't hold your breath.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35'As enigmatic as ever, he leaves me a little note.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39'But which one of us is talking rubbish?
0:21:41 > 0:21:45'In our post-interview photo shoot, I appeal to Anjem's playful nature
0:21:45 > 0:21:48'and offer to pose arm wrestling.
0:21:49 > 0:21:53'He seems intrigued by the prospect, and tells me he would beat me.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56'I tell him that it would be highly unlikely,
0:21:56 > 0:21:59'and ask him to put his money where his mouth is.
0:21:59 > 0:22:04'On this occasion, he is unwilling to take up the challenge.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06'However, he suggests it may be possible
0:22:06 > 0:22:08'at some point in the future.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10'I tell him I'll hold him to it.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18'I can't make my mind up about Anjem. Is he a joker?
0:22:18 > 0:22:21'Does he mean everything that comes out of his mouth?
0:22:21 > 0:22:23'I get the argument about foreign policy
0:22:23 > 0:22:25'and agree with him on many things,
0:22:25 > 0:22:29'but there's always a point where he goes way too far.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31'For most of us, what he says is crazy.'
0:22:35 > 0:22:39But his followers soak it up.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45I can think of one place
0:22:45 > 0:22:48that might shed some more light on Anjem and his friends.
0:22:49 > 0:22:54East London Mosque has often been linked to extremism by the media,
0:22:54 > 0:22:58and has been the subject of more than one investigative documentary.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01It's a place Rich used to pray at sometimes.
0:23:01 > 0:23:06Back then, I was never able to get access within its cloistered walls.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10It was an idea I gave up on.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13However, much can change in four years.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15Food raid!
0:23:15 > 0:23:20It's 9pm, and it's Ramadan. I have struck up a friendship
0:23:20 > 0:23:23with the mosque's communication officer, Salman,
0:23:23 > 0:23:24and his friend, Tariq.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30I join them for a rather belated breaking of the fast.
0:23:30 > 0:23:35It's been a long day without food and water...for them.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37This is apparently a "special iftar".
0:23:37 > 0:23:39No, it's not.
0:23:39 > 0:23:40Every household...
0:23:40 > 0:23:42All I care about, yeah, it says food, it says hot,
0:23:42 > 0:23:45and it says halal. That's it, I'm happy.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49DOORS CLOSING
0:23:49 > 0:23:52'It's late, so one of my friends leaves for home.'
0:23:52 > 0:23:53Take care.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55'It's now just Salman and I to break fast.'
0:23:55 > 0:23:58Oh, you're a weak vegetarian!
0:23:58 > 0:24:00'But I don't think Salman has invited me
0:24:00 > 0:24:04'into his office to talk about special iftars.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07'There is some Muslim fan mail he wants to show me.'
0:24:07 > 0:24:11We have to deal with hate mail that comes through our doors.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13By far, this is light
0:24:13 > 0:24:16compared to some of the other stuff that's in here.
0:24:16 > 0:24:18Um...look at that.
0:24:18 > 0:24:24Someone's sent this CD here of pornographic content,
0:24:24 > 0:24:27to the mosque,
0:24:27 > 0:24:29thinking that one of our imams or someone unsuspecting
0:24:29 > 0:24:30is going to open it.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33How often do you receive these?
0:24:33 > 0:24:37When, let's say that a specific news story
0:24:37 > 0:24:40has run about the Muslim community
0:24:40 > 0:24:44in a negative and pejorative way,
0:24:44 > 0:24:48it just incites these individuals to send us hate mail.
0:24:48 > 0:24:54I guess Anjem Choudary is kind of held responsible for a lot of it?
0:24:54 > 0:24:58Yes, by all means. Every time he says something in the media,
0:24:58 > 0:25:00that kicks off tensions.
0:25:00 > 0:25:04He gets prominence. I've spoken to journalists
0:25:04 > 0:25:07and they have him on speed-dial.
0:25:07 > 0:25:11When they need a nutty joke, you know, a nutty quote,
0:25:11 > 0:25:14they just quickly press the speed dial, and ask him
0:25:14 > 0:25:16"What do you think about this?"
0:25:16 > 0:25:19And he'll give them exactly what they want,
0:25:19 > 0:25:21and they've got their headline.
0:25:21 > 0:25:23'Conversation turns to Woolwich.
0:25:23 > 0:25:27'East London Mosque had strongly condemned the attack.'
0:25:27 > 0:25:30After we published our condemnation
0:25:30 > 0:25:33of the murder in Woolwich,
0:25:33 > 0:25:37an individual came to visit the mosque.
0:25:37 > 0:25:42He's coming after prayer and what he does is,
0:25:42 > 0:25:44he comes to myself
0:25:44 > 0:25:50and one of the imams who is closely affiliated with this mosque
0:25:50 > 0:25:53and he starts a conversation with me,
0:25:53 > 0:25:58asking why we condemned the Woolwich killing and that's it,
0:25:58 > 0:26:03things started getting a bit heated from that moment on.
0:26:03 > 0:26:08'Another radical Islamist was about to make his entrance.'
0:26:08 > 0:26:12He called in one of his friends who's actually a revert.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15And he starts a conversation with me
0:26:15 > 0:26:20and to the imam, with no respect or any kind of decorum.
0:26:20 > 0:26:23- Do you know them?- Yeah. - Oh, you know them?
0:26:23 > 0:26:27I'm not sure if it is, but it looks like Abdullah Deen.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33Ah, I think that's possibly his name.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40So, yeah, he came into the mosque
0:26:40 > 0:26:43and he was starting trouble.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46'It's my friend, Abdullah Deen, the perfume seller,
0:26:46 > 0:26:49'who we met earlier outside the Iranian embassy.
0:26:49 > 0:26:54'I must say I'm a little confused to see him taking on an entire mosque'.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59How do you get across to people like that?
0:26:59 > 0:27:02You know, how do you do it?
0:27:02 > 0:27:06It's tough. You know, everybody tends to blame the Muslim community.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09"You guys are not doing enough. It's your problem",
0:27:09 > 0:27:12blah, blah, blah. How do you get through to people
0:27:12 > 0:27:14who've gone that far down the line?
0:27:14 > 0:27:17How do you pull 'em out? You know? What do you do?
0:27:17 > 0:27:22Stick 'em into solitary confinement, what? You know.
0:27:22 > 0:27:25- It's the million dollar question. - That's it, really.
0:27:25 > 0:27:29And I don't think even sticking them into solitary confinement helps.
0:27:29 > 0:27:34You know? The members of the congregation just kicked them out.
0:27:34 > 0:27:39You see, that's community dealing with the problem.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41You know? They'll take action.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44They're not going to say "Hey, come in", you know,
0:27:44 > 0:27:47"How about you hang around a bit longer
0:27:47 > 0:27:50"and spew out more of your hatred?"
0:27:50 > 0:27:53No, you're seen as a problem.
0:27:53 > 0:27:59Get rid of you, you're not allowed to propagate any hate from here.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06And they know that if they don't leave,
0:28:06 > 0:28:10- they will probably get thrown out physically.- Removed?- Yeah.
0:28:10 > 0:28:13'Abdullah disputed the mosque's point of view,
0:28:13 > 0:28:16'but didn't want to comment on it.
0:28:16 > 0:28:18'To see him kicking off at the mosque is surprising.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21'I have never seen him in this light before.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24'But then again, seeing this change in character
0:28:24 > 0:28:27'is something I know only too well.
0:28:28 > 0:28:30'One of the things that struck me most
0:28:30 > 0:28:33'about getting to know Rich and his friends
0:28:33 > 0:28:35'was the contrast between scary and nice.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40'I often enjoyed hanging around with these guys.
0:28:40 > 0:28:44'They were very polite and good natured, sometimes even funny.'
0:28:44 > 0:28:46- We're off.- You're off?
0:28:46 > 0:28:48We're like bad eggs, we're off.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51'And then there was this kind of off-the-scale ranting
0:28:51 > 0:28:53'that would take me by surprise.
0:28:58 > 0:29:02'And their sense of superiority over us non-believers.'
0:29:02 > 0:29:04Burn, burn, USA! Burn, burn, USA!
0:29:09 > 0:29:12'If you were to ask any young Muslim where the hate comes from,
0:29:12 > 0:29:15'they'll probably tell you about foreign policy.
0:29:15 > 0:29:20'Western wars in Muslim lands are a hot topic among Islamic youth.'
0:29:20 > 0:29:23My stepbrother, Richard Dart, you may...
0:29:23 > 0:29:26- Now I know, I recognise your face. - My Brother The Islamist.
0:29:26 > 0:29:33I watched the documentary. It was, er, emotive, to be honest with you.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36He met some strange guys, I would say,
0:29:36 > 0:29:41and the thing is that to focus on them is very strange.
0:29:41 > 0:29:44If you spent your whole documentary focusing on the three guys he knew
0:29:44 > 0:29:47and not thinking about the wider world context
0:29:47 > 0:29:50that has bred this situation...
0:29:50 > 0:29:52Wherever you go, you'll hear the same thing.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55Any Muslim you speak to, go and ask any young guy out there,
0:29:55 > 0:29:57they will tell you what they see,
0:29:57 > 0:29:58constantly, day in, day out.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01They see what happens to their fellow Muslim brethren.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05You have to ask yourself, why is it that Muslims are so frustrated
0:30:05 > 0:30:09and can't do anything when they see their co-religionists being tortured
0:30:09 > 0:30:11and humiliated in disgusting and horrible ways on a mass level?
0:30:11 > 0:30:14'I'm always told it's the main reason
0:30:14 > 0:30:16'for the radicalisation of converts.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19'And it's always used to justify acts of terror
0:30:19 > 0:30:20'when they're committed.
0:30:22 > 0:30:24'I don't think it's all coincidence,
0:30:24 > 0:30:27'and it doesn't take much digging around
0:30:27 > 0:30:31'to see things that will make your blood boil.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35'This infamous leaked video
0:30:35 > 0:30:38'shows US forces gunning down a group of people,
0:30:38 > 0:30:40'which includes journalists.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47'To watch this makes me sick and incredibly angry.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52'But I'm no extremist.
0:30:55 > 0:30:58'Maybe it's time I consulted a psychologist...
0:31:01 > 0:31:03'An imam psychologist.'
0:31:03 > 0:31:06This is part of the crisis of the Muslim world...
0:31:06 > 0:31:11'Sorry, a fish and chip loving imam psychologist - Alyas Karmani.
0:31:11 > 0:31:13It's bizarre, it's such a Pakistani thing to do on a Friday,
0:31:13 > 0:31:16have fish and chips. Even from when I was a kid,
0:31:16 > 0:31:18we always had fish and chips.
0:31:18 > 0:31:23My mouth is watering, so we need to stop soon and get stuck in.
0:31:24 > 0:31:26How's the fish and chips?
0:31:28 > 0:31:32- Pretty good.- OK, good. Better than down south, eh?
0:31:32 > 0:31:34Oh, I wouldn't say that.
0:31:34 > 0:31:35OK, OK.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39I think there are some pretty good fish and chip shops in Weymouth.
0:31:39 > 0:31:41OK, uh-huh.
0:31:41 > 0:31:45'He has an interesting theory that draws comparison
0:31:45 > 0:31:49'between extremists on opposing ends of the shouty-shouty spectrum,
0:31:49 > 0:31:50'and how similar they really are'.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53One of the important things we're trying to show is that the process
0:31:53 > 0:31:56of someone becoming what you call a far-right extremist,
0:31:56 > 0:31:58it's a similar process for any other type of extremism.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01It's no different. And what it is, it's often young angry men,
0:32:01 > 0:32:05who feel very disaffected, they don't feel they've got a place in society,
0:32:05 > 0:32:09who feel there are things wrong. And they feel powerless.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11A lot of it is about being disempowered. And suddenly,
0:32:11 > 0:32:15the ideology gives them power. It gives them some kind of significance,
0:32:15 > 0:32:16some kind of importance.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19You'll also find that both sets of groups are authoritarian.
0:32:19 > 0:32:24They are kind of misogynistic, they see women's role as very subservient.
0:32:24 > 0:32:26You know, there are charismatic individuals
0:32:26 > 0:32:29who are involved in these groups who manage to connect with these guys,
0:32:29 > 0:32:32and provide them some kind of direction and focus.
0:32:32 > 0:32:34Those individuals have vulnerabilities.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37And they prey on those particular vulnerabilities
0:32:37 > 0:32:39to really entice those individuals
0:32:39 > 0:32:41into their particular kind of narrative.
0:32:41 > 0:32:44So regardless of whether you're on the extreme right,
0:32:44 > 0:32:49or if you're an Islamic extremist,
0:32:49 > 0:32:53those people have gone through a similar process
0:32:53 > 0:32:57- and have had similar stories? - That's right, yeah.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59You'll find similar stories. You'll find it like,
0:32:59 > 0:33:02"I didn't fit in in society, I was bullied when I was young".
0:33:02 > 0:33:04Issues around emotional wellbeing.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07You've got individuals with issues around psychological trauma.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10Sometimes they've been the victims of violence themselves.
0:33:10 > 0:33:12Sometimes being in a dysfunctional family,
0:33:12 > 0:33:15I mean, not having a father figure sometimes.
0:33:15 > 0:33:18All of these are similar issues that they have experienced.
0:33:18 > 0:33:19But guess what?
0:33:19 > 0:33:21Becoming a warrior,
0:33:21 > 0:33:26and becoming someone who is a champion for their race,
0:33:26 > 0:33:29does bolster their self-esteem.
0:33:29 > 0:33:33'I guess you really do have to be lost to be found.
0:33:37 > 0:33:41'I can definitely see parallels in what Alyas is describing
0:33:41 > 0:33:44'and Rich's own life. His dad left the country
0:33:44 > 0:33:47'when he was quite young, and when he grew up,
0:33:47 > 0:33:51'he always admitted he didn't quite fit in with society.'
0:33:51 > 0:33:54I remember one time, I went to a McDonald's in France,
0:33:54 > 0:33:58and they literally got Eminem, and a rapper called Nate Dogg,
0:33:58 > 0:34:01talking about illicit sexual intercourse and swearing.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03And it's not being censored at all.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05And you've got little kids running around there.
0:34:05 > 0:34:07You know, it's quite shocking.
0:34:07 > 0:34:09Even then, I was a non-Muslim,
0:34:09 > 0:34:12but obviously you have that Fitrah of commanding good, forbidding evil.
0:34:12 > 0:34:15And I was quite outspoken about it. I was like "What's going on?
0:34:15 > 0:34:17"This is terrible that this kind of thing is going on".
0:34:20 > 0:34:25A few days later, and I'm mingling with tourists on Tower Bridge.
0:34:25 > 0:34:29But it's not the boat regatta I'm here to see.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35I'm here for another very different British pastime...
0:34:35 > 0:34:37Protesting.
0:34:43 > 0:34:47The English Defence League are staging a rather boisterous protest.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49Back off, back off!
0:34:49 > 0:34:51Move, or I'll move ya!
0:34:51 > 0:34:52Fucking scum, the lot of ya.
0:34:52 > 0:34:54That's not very nice, mate.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57BLEEP!
0:34:57 > 0:34:59'They really are a charming lot.
0:35:02 > 0:35:03'But I'm not here to mingle.
0:35:03 > 0:35:07'I'm here to speak with Tommy Robinson - their leader.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10What do you think about young British people
0:35:10 > 0:35:12that have been radicalised?
0:35:12 > 0:35:15- Young British people?- Yeah, my stepbrother was radicalised.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17Oh, how are you doing? You're Richard Dart's brother.
0:35:17 > 0:35:19Er, I think that ideology...you see,
0:35:19 > 0:35:22what has been done since that happened to your step-brother?
0:35:22 > 0:35:26Now he's in jail on terrorism, what's being done to tackle that ideology?
0:35:26 > 0:35:28What are the government doing to address that ideology?
0:35:28 > 0:35:31What are the Islamic community doing to address that Da'Wah
0:35:31 > 0:35:33on the streets of our country? Nothing.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36What do you think it is that causes people to become radicalised, then?
0:35:36 > 0:35:39It's a powerful, powerful ideology within Islam,
0:35:39 > 0:35:41and it's a togetherness, a brotherhood.
0:35:41 > 0:35:43Straightaway, you belong. Straightaway, you belong.
0:35:43 > 0:35:45So I don't know what your brother was like.
0:35:45 > 0:35:47But the majority of these people are lonesome,
0:35:47 > 0:35:49and don't really have a belonging in life,
0:35:49 > 0:35:51don't have a big community feeling.
0:35:51 > 0:35:54And they're taken into that, and straightaway, it's "Wow".
0:35:54 > 0:35:57And then they're manipulated and manipulated and manipulated.
0:35:57 > 0:36:03Do you not think that sometimes, this results in more radicalisation?
0:36:03 > 0:36:07Mate, we started four years ago, yeah? And every on year on year,
0:36:07 > 0:36:11this radicalisation has been going on for 1,400 years, know what I mean?
0:36:11 > 0:36:14You're not going to blame us for 9/11, as well are you? Or 7/7?
0:36:14 > 0:36:17Or the Beslan massacre, was that our fault?
0:36:17 > 0:36:19It doesn't mean we hate all Muslims.
0:36:19 > 0:36:22It just means there's an Islamist problem, there's a problem
0:36:22 > 0:36:24when it comes down to manipulating people's minds,
0:36:24 > 0:36:27and what is being done to protect those people?
0:36:27 > 0:36:30'He's not likely to find a job as a diplomat,
0:36:30 > 0:36:34'but like Alyas, Tommy does have a point.
0:36:34 > 0:36:38'Young people perhaps lacking identity or direction in life
0:36:38 > 0:36:41'are incredibly vulnerable to being sold big ideas
0:36:41 > 0:36:42'and the sense of belonging
0:36:42 > 0:36:46'that being part of a radical movement provides.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49No surrender! No surrender to the Taliban!
0:36:49 > 0:36:51Scum! Scum! Scum!
0:36:51 > 0:36:54And like Rich, they are easily manipulated.
0:36:56 > 0:37:00Murderers! Murderers!
0:37:00 > 0:37:03Alyas, the fish and chip imam from Bradford,
0:37:03 > 0:37:08has invited me and some friends to join him in a "thought experiment".
0:37:08 > 0:37:12But first, there is some BBC paperwork to fill in.
0:37:12 > 0:37:18Can you think of the kind of hazards involved in this thought experiment?
0:37:18 > 0:37:21How could you put that in a risk assessment?
0:37:21 > 0:37:22"Hazard - radicalisation".
0:37:24 > 0:37:27"Hazard - radicalisation"!
0:37:29 > 0:37:33'He says he can show us how easy it can be to become radicalised.
0:37:33 > 0:37:37'But he hasn't met my PC middle-class friends before.'
0:37:37 > 0:37:40How many people in Britain are of the view that those four -
0:37:40 > 0:37:43"Actually, nah, they don't represent the 2 million Muslims in the UK.
0:37:43 > 0:37:45"They're nothing to do with that, they're crackpots".
0:37:45 > 0:37:47How many people have that view?
0:37:48 > 0:37:51Which view?
0:37:51 > 0:37:54- That they're the minority, they don't represent...- Yeah.
0:37:54 > 0:37:56Honestly? Do you actually think that?
0:37:56 > 0:37:59I'm just, um, yeah, I reckon...
0:37:59 > 0:38:02Yeah, I honestly believe that..
0:38:02 > 0:38:06'They're not going to make easy fundamentalists.'
0:38:06 > 0:38:10I want you to imagine you're a young Muslim growing up in Britain,
0:38:10 > 0:38:11in your early twenties,
0:38:11 > 0:38:17and after ten years of nonstop War on Islam in the media...
0:38:17 > 0:38:19People access a different media.
0:38:19 > 0:38:20You've already got no hope
0:38:20 > 0:38:23or credibility in the mainstream media.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26I'm going to look for an alternative media that gives me
0:38:26 > 0:38:29the issues from the perspective that I want. So you go looking for that.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31Where are you going to look for that media?
0:38:31 > 0:38:33The internet.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36Yeah, and on the internet, whose narrative is it?
0:38:36 > 0:38:39That's the whole thing.
0:38:39 > 0:38:40Whose truth is it?
0:38:52 > 0:38:55'Despite my friends' stoic determination,
0:38:55 > 0:38:59'it's hard not to be affected by the imagery that Alyas is showing us.'
0:38:59 > 0:39:04A particular mindset is exposed to that, immersed in it.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09Alongside a very powerful narrative,
0:39:09 > 0:39:13which is basically, "Look what's happening to us".
0:39:13 > 0:39:15We become desensitised to violence.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18If I can add, very charismatically, a few verses from the Koran,
0:39:18 > 0:39:20"We've got to fight jihad, guys".
0:39:20 > 0:39:25"We've got to, and if you're martyrs...and the glory of Islam,
0:39:25 > 0:39:28"and the glory of sacrificing our lives to save others..."
0:39:28 > 0:39:30For someone who's nothing,
0:39:30 > 0:39:33you know what, who feels "Society has pissed all over me.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36"But you know what? I can have the glory of being a warrior."
0:39:36 > 0:39:41This is where Richard's case is really...that's why I'm doing this,
0:39:41 > 0:39:46because this is about vulnerability. There's vulnerable people out there.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49The environment is so, I could say so fertile,
0:39:49 > 0:39:53for you to do that radicalisation, creating the anger,
0:39:53 > 0:39:55the frustration, the sense of despair..
0:39:55 > 0:39:57it's really easy.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01I sense that Alyas has struck a chord.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04Yeah, I still don't think I'd ever see violence as an answer.
0:40:04 > 0:40:05Maybe not.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08Thanks, I hope that's been quite useful.
0:40:08 > 0:40:11My friends haven't been radicalised.
0:40:11 > 0:40:14But then again, they're not really vulnerable,
0:40:14 > 0:40:16which I guess is the point.
0:40:16 > 0:40:19Yeah, I find it hard to understand how, still.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22From Richard's point of view, let's say,
0:40:22 > 0:40:24he's had a very similar identity to what we've got.
0:40:24 > 0:40:28To go from that to that just by being exposed to that,
0:40:28 > 0:40:32I don't think it sits right. There's obviously something else...
0:40:32 > 0:40:35My friends can't get around how a simple lack of identity
0:40:35 > 0:40:37can cause somebody to go so far.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39And I agree.
0:40:39 > 0:40:41A charismatic preacher
0:40:41 > 0:40:45and the effect of foreign policy may also be part of the deal.
0:40:51 > 0:40:55But there is someone else who I want to meet, with a very personal story
0:40:55 > 0:40:57that doesn't quite fit the mould.
0:40:57 > 0:41:01The police came and told us of his arrest just before midnight.
0:41:02 > 0:41:06I'll never forget the shock I felt on hearing the news.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09I could not believe that my son
0:41:09 > 0:41:12could be involved in something like this.
0:41:13 > 0:41:18Vicki Ibrahim's son, Andy, didn't have anyone to radicalise him.
0:41:18 > 0:41:21It happened all alone, through the internet.
0:41:21 > 0:41:26Cos he was spending so long on PC games,
0:41:26 > 0:41:29he didn't really go out with friends very much at all.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31We realised he hadn't been
0:41:31 > 0:41:34talking to people at the mosques about things,
0:41:34 > 0:41:39but he had been spending enormous amounts of time on the internet,
0:41:39 > 0:41:45looking at what people would call radical or extremist sites.
0:41:45 > 0:41:51He had done a reconnaissance of a shopping mall in Bristol,
0:41:51 > 0:41:55he had bought bottles of peroxide,
0:41:55 > 0:41:59and these were stored in his flat.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04He had made some HMTD, which he stored in the refrigerator.
0:42:04 > 0:42:07- What's HMTD? - Explosive chemical.
0:42:07 > 0:42:11We only discovered all this after his arrest.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18Andy was stopped before he got a chance to kill.
0:42:18 > 0:42:22But his actions still led to him being convicted as a terrorist.
0:42:22 > 0:42:24He's now in prison.
0:42:25 > 0:42:28I wish we could go back five years,
0:42:28 > 0:42:30and none of this had happened.
0:42:37 > 0:42:40It's very hard to deal with it.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44Five years on, it's still very painful for all of us.
0:42:48 > 0:42:52I'm reminded of the devastating effect this stuff has on families.
0:42:54 > 0:42:58I wonder what kind of material Andy might have been looking at.
0:42:58 > 0:43:02This highly disturbing recruitment video was made by Al-Shabaab
0:43:02 > 0:43:05and aimed at British Muslims.
0:43:05 > 0:43:06It quickly went viral.
0:43:06 > 0:43:08The mujahideen of Woolwich, Mohammed Merah
0:43:08 > 0:43:11Nidal Hassan, Farooq Abdulmutallib,
0:43:11 > 0:43:14they all saw themselves as part of a bigger struggle.
0:43:14 > 0:43:17A struggle for the dominance of Allah's law on earth
0:43:17 > 0:43:19and the establishment of his Sharia.
0:43:19 > 0:43:21So if it's impossible for you
0:43:21 > 0:43:23to make it safely to any of the lands of jihad,
0:43:23 > 0:43:26then follow the example of your brothers in Woolwich,
0:43:26 > 0:43:28Toulouse, Texas and Boston.
0:43:28 > 0:43:31The internet can be a dangerous place.
0:43:31 > 0:43:33It's deeply shocking.
0:43:36 > 0:43:41Abdullah Deen, the star of East London Mosque CCTV,
0:43:41 > 0:43:43has agreed to meet up for a stroll.
0:43:43 > 0:43:45I used to have TV.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50You know when you get TV, then you buy the Sky,
0:43:50 > 0:43:52you buy the Sky, you get tempted by the movie packages,
0:43:52 > 0:43:54you get the movie packages,
0:43:54 > 0:43:56you watch a film, you try to stick to Halal films.
0:43:56 > 0:43:58Before you know it,
0:43:58 > 0:44:01you're watching a film that doesn't have Halal in it.
0:44:01 > 0:44:03'I'm relieved that today
0:44:03 > 0:44:06'he is still the likeable guy I met four years ago.'
0:44:06 > 0:44:08I mean, don't you miss having a TV?
0:44:08 > 0:44:09It's not that I miss it,
0:44:09 > 0:44:13but there's a lot more time on your hands to find something to do.
0:44:13 > 0:44:17Living in the Western society is very limited, you know,
0:44:17 > 0:44:21for Halal activity to do. We are taught
0:44:21 > 0:44:23that all play is a waste of time,
0:44:23 > 0:44:26except for archery, swimming and horse riding -
0:44:26 > 0:44:30and play with the wife is one of the things that's not a waste of time.
0:44:30 > 0:44:31'We have never seen eye to eye
0:44:31 > 0:44:34'when it comes to Islamic fundamentalism,
0:44:34 > 0:44:37'but personally I have always got along with him.'
0:44:37 > 0:44:41I mean, you're friendly to me because, you know, um,
0:44:41 > 0:44:44we get along...as people.
0:44:44 > 0:44:48Um...getting along as people...
0:44:48 > 0:44:51Our way of life would not get along with each other.
0:44:51 > 0:44:54It just so happens that all the times we have been together,
0:44:54 > 0:44:57it is for the purpose of Islam, we're taking about Islam,
0:44:57 > 0:44:59what Islam entails.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01So as far as I can tell, you're questioning Islam,
0:45:01 > 0:45:03so I'm obliged to give you the answers.
0:45:03 > 0:45:05You might be able to say that we get along,
0:45:05 > 0:45:09but let's talk about the afterlife, and what comes next,
0:45:09 > 0:45:11in this sense we're not going to get along.
0:45:11 > 0:45:12Because I, as a Muslim, believe
0:45:12 > 0:45:14that for your salvation on the Day of Judgment,
0:45:14 > 0:45:16you should embrace Islam, and worship Allah
0:45:16 > 0:45:19and accept the final message of Muhammad, sallallahu alayhi wasallam
0:45:19 > 0:45:22and if you don't accept this as a way of life,
0:45:22 > 0:45:25then I, as a Muslim, believe which my Koran teaches me,
0:45:25 > 0:45:28then this person will be placed in the hellfire,
0:45:28 > 0:45:31after continuously hearing, er, the call to Islam.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34So we'll get along, I can be kind to you,
0:45:34 > 0:45:37we can even sit down and eat some chicken and chips together,
0:45:37 > 0:45:40this is not an issue. As long as it's Halal.
0:45:40 > 0:45:44But we will be separated on the Day of Judgment.
0:45:45 > 0:45:47I'm devastated.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50But it isn't the first time I have been shot down.
0:45:50 > 0:45:52So every time I've spoken to some of the brothers
0:45:52 > 0:45:56and I've felt there might be sort of friendship,
0:45:56 > 0:46:02or...sort of warm feelings towards each other, I'm just being mistaken.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05Obviously they're trying to incline you to Islam, innit.
0:46:05 > 0:46:07And maybe you'll become a Muslim.
0:46:07 > 0:46:09And then you can have a proper friendship.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12Obviously, it's not false they're trying to get close to you.
0:46:12 > 0:46:16But until you become Muslim, then there's going to be a barrier there,
0:46:16 > 0:46:19because Allah tells there to be.
0:46:25 > 0:46:30It's funny - this is the first time I've actually been to the prison.
0:46:31 > 0:46:35It's strange knowing just behind those walls there, somewhere,
0:46:35 > 0:46:37is Rich.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39I wonder what he's doing.
0:46:39 > 0:46:43It's Friday, so...probably
0:46:43 > 0:46:46Friday prayers today.
0:46:46 > 0:46:52Is he reading the Koran in his cell, is he playing ping-pong?
0:46:52 > 0:46:54You know.
0:46:54 > 0:46:58It's just strange thinking about life behind the walls.
0:46:58 > 0:47:02# Well, I heard there was a secret chord
0:47:02 > 0:47:06# That David played and it pleased the Lord
0:47:06 > 0:47:09# But you don't really care for music... #
0:47:09 > 0:47:11And he's refused to see me.
0:47:11 > 0:47:13I don't know why he's refused to see me.
0:47:13 > 0:47:15Maybe it's because...
0:47:15 > 0:47:21he knows I'm making a film, and...he doesn't trust me.
0:47:21 > 0:47:24Because I'm a disbeliever.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28And he doesn't trust disbelievers.
0:47:28 > 0:47:32Maybe everything in the two years after the film went out
0:47:32 > 0:47:34and leading to his arrest,
0:47:34 > 0:47:37where we were getting along just fine,
0:47:37 > 0:47:42and being friends was... just a facade.
0:47:44 > 0:47:46And that...
0:47:48 > 0:47:52..he'd always intended to leave the country,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55to try and get training,
0:47:55 > 0:47:57to fight jihad.
0:47:58 > 0:47:59To die a martyr.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03I hate what's happened to Rich.
0:48:03 > 0:48:06What he's done to himself, and his family.
0:48:07 > 0:48:12But I still worry about the rhetoric from Anjem, and preachers like him.
0:48:12 > 0:48:18Does he know that when he takes these guys under his wing,
0:48:18 > 0:48:21does he actually know that he's playing with their lives?
0:48:21 > 0:48:24He's playing with their families' lives?
0:48:26 > 0:48:30Dunno. And does he have a conscience at all?
0:48:32 > 0:48:35I feel like I have been here before.
0:48:39 > 0:48:40Just push!
0:48:40 > 0:48:45'Yes, it's that travel hotel in Chingford.
0:48:45 > 0:48:48I've got a couple of heavies with me.
0:48:49 > 0:48:52Where are the lattes?
0:48:53 > 0:48:55That machine's not very good. is it?
0:48:55 > 0:48:58- Shall we get them to make some? - You know the score.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01'I want to challenge Anjem again
0:49:01 > 0:49:03'on accepting responsibility for the part he played
0:49:03 > 0:49:06'in radicalising Rich, and others like him.'
0:49:06 > 0:49:09Brother Salahuddin embraced Islam at my hand.
0:49:09 > 0:49:12And he's a fantastic individual, and very good friend of mine.
0:49:12 > 0:49:15I believe that even if he was going abroad, he was going abroad
0:49:15 > 0:49:18to develop his own character and his personality.
0:49:18 > 0:49:20From an Islamic perspective, for the Muslims to go
0:49:20 > 0:49:23anywhere in the world and stand with their brothers and sisters
0:49:23 > 0:49:25and defend their life and their property
0:49:25 > 0:49:27is extremely noble and commendable,
0:49:27 > 0:49:30in any Muslim's book, wherever you may be in the world.
0:49:30 > 0:49:33OK. And you would encourage that?
0:49:33 > 0:49:36I encourage people to fulfil their Islamic responsibility.
0:49:36 > 0:49:39If I thought it was better for me to go abroad, I'd be abroad.
0:49:39 > 0:49:42But I feel I can fulfil my responsibility...
0:49:42 > 0:49:45But do you encourage others, who look up to you, and follow you...
0:49:45 > 0:49:47- to, to do that?- Well, the thing is,
0:49:47 > 0:49:49I don't think many people look up to me and follow me...
0:49:49 > 0:49:53- I think they do!- No, they follow the Koran and they follow the tradition
0:49:53 > 0:49:56and the message of Muhammad, sallallahu alayhi wasallam.
0:49:56 > 0:49:58It's not individual, if you like,
0:49:58 > 0:50:02- eulogising that's taking place here.- No, but I mean it's...
0:50:02 > 0:50:04It's people following Islam. I'll come to your point,
0:50:04 > 0:50:07your point is, am I recruiting people and sending them abroad?
0:50:07 > 0:50:08The point is no.
0:50:08 > 0:50:12'A straight answer - I wasn't expecting that!
0:50:12 > 0:50:13'I'll continue.'
0:50:13 > 0:50:17Can you admit that you have that influence on people?
0:50:17 > 0:50:19Well, look, ah, I don't think that
0:50:19 > 0:50:23I'm influencing people to go abroad, quite frankly and honestly.
0:50:23 > 0:50:25- There's nobody that's been abroad who's...- You're not stupid.
0:50:25 > 0:50:27..written a letter to me,
0:50:27 > 0:50:29"Thank you very much for facilitating my trip abroad."
0:50:29 > 0:50:31You know, if you want to believe
0:50:31 > 0:50:36communist, you know, outlets, like Hope not Hate,
0:50:36 > 0:50:38the fact that I'm behind 200 or 300 people going abroad, ah,
0:50:38 > 0:50:41you know, I am a conveyor belt to terrorism
0:50:41 > 0:50:43and, you know, I'm the biggest factor
0:50:43 > 0:50:46since, I don't know, Osama Bin Laden on recruiting people
0:50:46 > 0:50:48to go to the battlefield, then you can do that.
0:50:48 > 0:50:51But you know, I think there's a hospital in South London for
0:50:51 > 0:50:54mental people, I'm sure they have places for people like yourself.
0:50:54 > 0:50:57'I live in south London!
0:50:57 > 0:51:00'Still not quite there yet... I'll try again.'
0:51:00 > 0:51:04What I kind of almost want you to do is just accept that you have
0:51:04 > 0:51:08some kind of responsibility for being so influential
0:51:08 > 0:51:14in Rich's journey, his story, and others like him.
0:51:14 > 0:51:17It's just, take a little bit of responsibility there
0:51:17 > 0:51:20- because it's... - Look, let me put it like this.
0:51:20 > 0:51:23I do believe that I was influential in, ah,
0:51:23 > 0:51:28Brother Saluhuddin's development, in his Islamic understanding.
0:51:28 > 0:51:33And I believe he became a very good propagator of Islam.
0:51:33 > 0:51:35He used to come to all our road shows, our stalls, etc
0:51:35 > 0:51:37and I am extremely proud of him.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40I think that, you know, he passed his message from your film,
0:51:40 > 0:51:43My Brother The Islamist, to millions of people around the world.
0:51:43 > 0:51:45But I at no time asked him to go abroad, you know.
0:51:45 > 0:51:51I didn't ask him to attend any kind of training camp in this country,
0:51:51 > 0:51:54and by all accounts he lost contact with me over the last year,
0:51:54 > 0:51:56and I heard about his arrest like everybody else.
0:51:56 > 0:51:58I didn't know he was going abroad, you know,
0:51:58 > 0:52:01I didn't know where he was going, he was doing it on his own account.
0:52:01 > 0:52:03I knew he wanted to go, I think, to Egypt,
0:52:03 > 0:52:05he wanted to study Arabic language,
0:52:05 > 0:52:09but Afghanistan or Pakistan training for jihad operations,
0:52:09 > 0:52:11this is all new to me. So, you know, this is where I stand
0:52:11 > 0:52:14because I believe in a covenant of security in this country
0:52:14 > 0:52:17and I believe that we can fulfil our responsibility here
0:52:17 > 0:52:19so this is where I stand - I'm not saying I didn't have an influence,
0:52:19 > 0:52:21but if you want to say that I'm the one
0:52:21 > 0:52:24who encouraged him to go abroad or to carry out operations,
0:52:24 > 0:52:26this is not the case.
0:52:28 > 0:52:32- How about that arm wrestle? - Are you ready for the arm wrestle?
0:52:32 > 0:52:33You know what,
0:52:33 > 0:52:39when you arm wrestle you end up hurting your arm for a few days.
0:52:39 > 0:52:43And I need my left and my right arms.
0:52:48 > 0:52:51- CHANTING: Sharia for Burma! - Sharia for Burma!
0:52:51 > 0:52:55# All around me are familiar faces
0:52:55 > 0:53:01# Worn out places Worn out faces... #
0:53:01 > 0:53:04I don't think Anjem and I are ever likely to agree
0:53:04 > 0:53:06about what happened to Rich.
0:53:06 > 0:53:10"Fight them with your wealth, with your body, with your tongue!"
0:53:10 > 0:53:14His rhetoric is intoxicating and I think his views are dangerous
0:53:14 > 0:53:16and often irresponsible.
0:53:16 > 0:53:20- Jihad!- Jihad!- Jihad!- Jihad!
0:53:20 > 0:53:23But he's smart. He knows where the line is.
0:53:23 > 0:53:27The thing is, some of those who used to follow him
0:53:27 > 0:53:30aren't always afraid to cross it.
0:53:30 > 0:53:33# ...the dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had... #
0:53:33 > 0:53:37I believe people like Anjem plant seeds that grow into extremism.
0:53:37 > 0:53:41The seeds thrive on anger and frustration.
0:53:41 > 0:53:45The problem is, there's a lot to be angry about.
0:53:47 > 0:53:49# ...mad world
0:53:52 > 0:53:54# Mad world... #
0:53:54 > 0:53:56Extremism provides a potent identity
0:53:56 > 0:54:01and sense of belonging for those who maybe were once lost.
0:54:01 > 0:54:03And for some, it gives a powerful sense of purpose -
0:54:03 > 0:54:08something to fight for, and against.
0:54:13 > 0:54:17The unsettling truth is there is no simple answer
0:54:17 > 0:54:19to what happened to my step-brother,
0:54:19 > 0:54:22and continues to happen to others every day.
0:54:25 > 0:54:28I cannot reach Rich through the prison walls.
0:54:28 > 0:54:33I wish I could look him in the eye and ask him what he was thinking.
0:54:33 > 0:54:35I find myself returning again and again
0:54:35 > 0:54:37to the last of our filmed interviews,
0:54:37 > 0:54:41six months before he left to find training in Pakistan.
0:54:41 > 0:54:44In Sharia, if you kill a non-Muslim unjustly,
0:54:44 > 0:54:46there's a hadith that says
0:54:46 > 0:54:49you'll never smell the fragrance of Paradise.
0:54:50 > 0:54:52What are your hopes for the future?
0:54:52 > 0:54:54My hopes for the future?
0:54:54 > 0:54:57Hopefully, similar to when I first came into Islam,
0:54:57 > 0:55:01to try to continue to seek the pleasure of Allah, Insha'Allah,
0:55:01 > 0:55:05to struggle for the Caliphate until the day that I die, Insha'Allah,
0:55:05 > 0:55:09and die on what we call Tahweed, the worshipping only of Allah
0:55:09 > 0:55:11and the following and obeying only of Allah.
0:55:12 > 0:55:17Is Rich a terrorist? I think he would say Jihadist.
0:55:17 > 0:55:21In hindsight, maybe a prison sentence
0:55:21 > 0:55:24shouldn't have come as such a surprise.
0:55:33 > 0:55:37Somebody told me that you've been inside, quite recently?
0:55:37 > 0:55:38Yeah.
0:55:42 > 0:55:44What did you do?
0:55:44 > 0:55:48It was a religiously aggravated common assault.
0:55:52 > 0:55:56They're the sort that Anjem's preying on.
0:55:56 > 0:55:59Very easy to manipulate, very easy to manipulate.
0:55:59 > 0:56:02You look at most of them, I don't know why, a lot of them are ginger.
0:56:03 > 0:56:05They are! It's the truth.
0:56:05 > 0:56:07Because they haven't been accepted.
0:56:07 > 0:56:10But start showing 'em some love, they're in.
0:56:16 > 0:56:20My son needs me. He deserves a second chance.
0:56:22 > 0:56:24We should give him that chance.