0:00:02 > 0:00:05Every weekend, parties are happening across the UK.
0:00:05 > 0:00:07THEY CHEER
0:00:07 > 0:00:10But how many of them end up like this?
0:00:10 > 0:00:12Emergency. Which service?
0:00:12 > 0:00:14I want to speak to the police.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17This guy I know, he did something to me.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21But what are the rules around sexual consent,
0:00:21 > 0:00:23and how much do you know?
0:00:23 > 0:00:25Just like old times, yeah?
0:00:25 > 0:00:27To find out, we've made a drama.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32And we've asked 24 young people to watch it and decide -
0:00:32 > 0:00:34is this rape?
0:00:34 > 0:00:37His life is going to be ruined for a misunderstanding.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40Friends have used those exact words - "She was into it."
0:00:40 > 0:00:42He shoved his penis in her mouth.
0:00:42 > 0:00:43That is close to rape.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48What the actual hell are you people talking about?
0:00:48 > 0:00:49It is rape, OK?
0:00:51 > 0:00:53It's a unique event and, at the end of it,
0:00:53 > 0:00:58we'll know what they think you can and can't do when it comes to sex.
0:01:00 > 0:01:02Oh. Shit.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10- Keep them coming, guys. Don't be shy.- Thank you!
0:01:12 > 0:01:15This group of 16- to 18-year-olds are on their way
0:01:15 > 0:01:16to an undisclosed location,
0:01:16 > 0:01:21where they'll watch the drama and debate - is this rape?
0:01:21 > 0:01:22We're here, guys!
0:01:24 > 0:01:27For the next few days, all their electronics are being taken off them.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31They will have no communication with the outside world.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37So, what are the rules when it comes to sex,
0:01:37 > 0:01:41and what happens when you go to parties?
0:01:41 > 0:01:43Every one of your friends has slept with someone,
0:01:43 > 0:01:45or done something by this age.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48It's the main reason a lot of people have house parties.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50That's what a lot of people... That's the reason they go.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53It's not to have a drink, enjoy the music, see people.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56It's to see if they can pull, take them home
0:01:56 > 0:01:58and then tell everyone about it the next day.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02It's very common - young men taking advantage of women
0:02:02 > 0:02:06while they're drunk and things like that.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09I don't think people talk about having un-consensual relations.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12If you're friends with someone that has done that sort of thing to
0:02:12 > 0:02:15a girl, you don't want to spread it around because you're their
0:02:15 > 0:02:19friend, but it doesn't make what they did any less wrong.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21I think a lot of guys think it's almost a game.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24I don't see it as that, myself. I think that's so wrong.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27So, what you're about to see
0:02:27 > 0:02:32is the first part of a three-part drama.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36It's been created, filmed, written, specially for this show.
0:02:36 > 0:02:40So, just to be clear, the drama will be shown in three sections
0:02:40 > 0:02:43and after each part, a question will be asked
0:02:43 > 0:02:45and the group will get a chance to vote.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48In order to find out how differently they react,
0:02:48 > 0:02:52the boys and girls are being shown it separately.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54- That make sense?- Yeah. - Let's watch it.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02I thought that! I thought I recognised it!
0:03:02 > 0:03:04- What are you drinking? - MURMUR OF CONVERSATION
0:03:04 > 0:03:07I'm not really drinking tonight. I'm just taking it easy.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11- Oh, Ali's here. I'm going to see him.- Oh, sure.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13- Finally!- What's up?
0:03:13 > 0:03:16- Oh, you decided to make an appearance.- Hey! How you doing?
0:03:16 > 0:03:19Sorry, I had a few things to do before I got here tonight.
0:03:19 > 0:03:20Argh! Bailey's!
0:03:20 > 0:03:22Not everyone is a perv like you.
0:03:22 > 0:03:23Uh, yeah.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29- Hey!- Hey! Want one?- Thank you.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33- No worries.- Thanks, Tom.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35- I owe you!- Sorry?
0:03:35 > 0:03:37I said I owe you for being late getting here.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39We'll call it even.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41LOUD MUSIC PLAYS
0:04:02 > 0:04:05Oh. Shit.
0:04:06 > 0:04:07Sorry.
0:04:44 > 0:04:45SHE GIGGLES
0:04:45 > 0:04:47Oh, um...
0:04:47 > 0:04:51Give us a text, yeah? If you're still on for seeing that movie.
0:04:51 > 0:04:52Laters, yeah?
0:04:59 > 0:05:00Laters, yeah?
0:05:00 > 0:05:02SHE LAUGHS
0:05:02 > 0:05:06- All right.- J is actually upstairs so are you OK on the sofa?
0:05:06 > 0:05:09- Fine.- Love you.- Love you, too.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15- Hey.- Oh! You still here?
0:05:15 > 0:05:19- Yeah, what happened to the music? - Everyone left.- Oh.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22- What, you fall asleep in the kitchen or something?- I must have.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25Waster.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38Hey, Gemma?
0:05:41 > 0:05:42Gem?
0:05:42 > 0:05:45I'm freezing. Can you budge up?
0:05:45 > 0:05:47Gemma?
0:05:48 > 0:05:50Get a blanket.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52I've checked. I can't find any.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56- Gemma? Come on, budge up. - Fine, just...
0:05:59 > 0:06:00..be quiet.
0:06:15 > 0:06:18You have fun at the party tonight?
0:06:18 > 0:06:19SHE MURMURS
0:06:19 > 0:06:21You looked gorgeous.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23Thanks.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26Do you remember that time? J's Christmas party?
0:06:28 > 0:06:30We got off in his little brother's room.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34Do you remember that?
0:06:37 > 0:06:38Hmm?
0:06:41 > 0:06:42Babe, I really need to sleep.
0:07:05 > 0:07:06Gem?
0:07:10 > 0:07:11Gem?
0:07:32 > 0:07:34You looked so good dancing tonight.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41Just like old times, yeah?
0:08:09 > 0:08:12OK, so, what we're going to be asking the group now is about
0:08:12 > 0:08:17whether Gemma agreed to what just happened - the oral sex.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20So, the question we're going to be asking is, did Gemma consent?
0:08:21 > 0:08:24We're going to go through now to another room.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28My role is to be devil's advocate,
0:08:28 > 0:08:31to make the group really think about the implications
0:08:31 > 0:08:34of the decision they're going to take on whether Gemma consented.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39Let's take it from the beginning. So, what happened between them?
0:08:39 > 0:08:43- It looked like he put his dick in her mouth.- OK.
0:08:43 > 0:08:47So, at any point, did she say "no"?
0:08:47 > 0:08:49- No.- No, not at any point, no.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52- Did she use her hands in any way to push him away?- No.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56- Did she show any signs of any kind of struggle, or anything like that?- No.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59- Did she have her eyes open at one point?- Yeah.- She did at one point.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02- She had her eyes open?- Yeah, she did open her eyes.- Yeah.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05- What did you see?- He raped her.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08- Wow.- Yeah, he did.
0:09:08 > 0:09:09There was absolutely no consent,
0:09:09 > 0:09:12so it definitely, really, is just single word - "rape".
0:09:12 > 0:09:14How do you know there was no consent?
0:09:14 > 0:09:17Well, because she was unconscious!
0:09:17 > 0:09:19Completely unresponsive.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21Just because someone hasn't said
0:09:21 > 0:09:23"no", doesn't mean they said "yes" either.
0:09:23 > 0:09:25So, you shouldn't just assume they've gone for "yes".
0:09:25 > 0:09:30They all instantly presumed he was some kind of weird, psycho predator.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Because I think he was just, I think,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36to an extent, he was being led on, wasn't he?
0:09:36 > 0:09:38She didn't push him off. She didn't say "no",
0:09:38 > 0:09:42and I'm not being funny, but if I had a guy putting his dick in my mouth,
0:09:42 > 0:09:45I'd say "no" if I didn't want there!
0:09:45 > 0:09:48But isn't there a difference between instigating
0:09:48 > 0:09:52the process of having sex, and starting to have sex,
0:09:52 > 0:09:56and actually forcing somebody to do something against their will?
0:09:56 > 0:09:58And which one did we just see?
0:09:58 > 0:10:00From them having something in the past, that does make a lot
0:10:00 > 0:10:02of an effect on that because that gives him
0:10:02 > 0:10:05the sign to say "we've had something in the past", like,
0:10:05 > 0:10:08"if she's smiling at me, then clearly she does like me."
0:10:08 > 0:10:10But then, at the same time, it's still wrong.
0:10:10 > 0:10:12It's a horrible case of miscommunication.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15If she definitely did not want to, she would have pushed him away.
0:10:15 > 0:10:19If we're going on percentages, maybe it's like 80-20 or something,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22because she's obviously, at some point, allowed him to do this
0:10:22 > 0:10:25because she let him into the bed in the end, and she let him
0:10:25 > 0:10:29kiss her in the end, and she let him put his dick in her mouth in the end.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32So, I suppose, the conclusion,
0:10:32 > 0:10:34she's allowed him.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36One of the main things I was thinking, Tom,
0:10:36 > 0:10:39he seemed just like a normal guy at a party.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41That's why I'm thinking... it could have been anyone.
0:10:41 > 0:10:45He could have been anyone. Just intoxicated,
0:10:45 > 0:10:47at that moment.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49Heat of the moment. And he just went for it.
0:10:49 > 0:10:50That's the scary thing about it.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53I interpreted the fact that she was afraid of him
0:10:53 > 0:10:57and afraid of what he would do if she started to resist.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00And, like, this submission, it's not a sign of consent, it's just
0:11:00 > 0:11:03a sign of weakness and that's perfectly fine.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06Like, you're allowed to be weak and, I...
0:11:06 > 0:11:08That's just my opinion on it.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12Yes, it can be classified as rape, but it's not as, almost,
0:11:12 > 0:11:14as bad, or...as some other cases where, for example,
0:11:14 > 0:11:17this was only oral sex, not penetration,
0:11:17 > 0:11:19but I think because we don't know the whole story,
0:11:19 > 0:11:22we don't know what she did to instigate this incident,
0:11:22 > 0:11:25but I don't think she's completely innocent.
0:11:25 > 0:11:30She did make some signs that could be interpreted as consent.
0:11:30 > 0:11:31Do you think, in his view,
0:11:31 > 0:11:34he could reasonably take consent from the way she carried on with him?
0:11:34 > 0:11:35Yeah, I think so.
0:11:36 > 0:11:41Do you feel like what you saw constituted zero consent from her?
0:11:41 > 0:11:44- This guy, he needs to go down? - I wouldn't say zero consent.
0:11:44 > 0:11:46I'd say about 80-20.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49- Yeah.- Because she didn't, like, push him away.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53Do you think rape would be too strong a term to put on what he did?
0:11:53 > 0:11:57- Yeah, I do. It's quite harsh. - It's harsh.- But it's close to rape.
0:11:57 > 0:11:58- Close to rape?- Yeah.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01At first, I thought, when I watched the video,
0:12:01 > 0:12:03I thought "definite rape."
0:12:03 > 0:12:05But, then, listening to everyone's opinions,
0:12:05 > 0:12:07they just changed my mind,
0:12:07 > 0:12:09definitely, because rape's such a harsh word.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12I don't really know about all these percentages.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14- I just think it's either rape or it's not.- Yeah.
0:12:14 > 0:12:19He put his, like, he put his penis in her mouth and she didn't say,
0:12:19 > 0:12:22- "Oh, yeah, go on." I just think that it's rape.- Yeah.
0:12:22 > 0:12:26The guy saw an opportunity and he took it. I mean, it's morally wrong.
0:12:26 > 0:12:27- That is wrong.- Yeah.
0:12:27 > 0:12:31I wouldn't want to say rape because that is a strong word.
0:12:31 > 0:12:34We can't say this is rape, but we can't say this is 95% rape.
0:12:34 > 0:12:36I mean, how horrible is that?
0:12:36 > 0:12:39- Seriously, how would you feel...? - "You haven't been raped enough."
0:12:39 > 0:12:42You haven't been raped enough to say that you're raped.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45That's an awful thing to say.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49No, not at that very moment where he actually went for the sex.
0:12:49 > 0:12:54I don't think, at any moment there, there was any consent which he could have thought.
0:12:54 > 0:12:56I think he knew that what he was doing was wrong.
0:12:56 > 0:13:00At the end of the day, she was awake and she allowed him to do that.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02To an extent.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04Just like old times, yeah?
0:13:07 > 0:13:10The girls get their chance to watch the first part of the drama.
0:13:13 > 0:13:17And, remember, the question being asked is, did Gemma consent?
0:13:19 > 0:13:22OK, so, we just watched the first part,
0:13:22 > 0:13:26the first bit of the drama. What happened? What do you guys think?
0:13:26 > 0:13:29- Rape.- Yeah.
0:13:29 > 0:13:33- He shoved his penis in her mouth. - Did he?!- Yeah.- OK.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35I don't know whether she wanted it...
0:13:35 > 0:13:37but it didn't look like she wanted it.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39If she wanted it, she should have given something back.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41He was kissing her face, she didn't kiss him back.
0:13:41 > 0:13:43She was just lying there like a plank.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46- I think that he forced it into her mouth.- Yeah.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48You think he forced his penis into her mouth? OK.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50Being awake isn't consent.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54Yeah, that's true. You're not going to just shut your eyes and think "It's not going to happen."
0:13:54 > 0:13:57Unwanted sexual contact is unwanted sexual contact.
0:13:57 > 0:14:00By her not saying no, he then, obviously,
0:14:00 > 0:14:04took that as a yes, which is wrong.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07- But in his mind, the point is that she didn't say no.- Yep.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09She didn't actually say anything.
0:14:09 > 0:14:14Like, she didn't show that she was up for it, but, at the same time,
0:14:14 > 0:14:16she didn't do anything to stop it.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19So, I think, for that, like, it is,
0:14:19 > 0:14:22like, it could be taken as consent.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25I personally think it was one of the moments where you're like,
0:14:25 > 0:14:28- "Oh, I can't be arsed" but you do it anyway.- Yeah.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31It's wrong, it is wrong, but it's one of those moments where
0:14:31 > 0:14:35you're like, "I can't be arsed" but you just do it anyway.
0:14:35 > 0:14:36She was giving him mixed signals.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39That doesn't give him any right to have done what he did,
0:14:39 > 0:14:41but he just got a little bit confused.
0:14:41 > 0:14:43He was drunk
0:14:43 > 0:14:47and he thought, like, something different of the situation.
0:14:47 > 0:14:52It was essentially a girl at a party, after the party,
0:14:52 > 0:14:56a man essentially semi-raping her
0:14:56 > 0:14:59when she was half asleep.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02And, yeah, it was, um...
0:15:03 > 0:15:05It's quite disturbing, really.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08She didn't say no and, like you said before, it was probably,
0:15:08 > 0:15:11it could have just been because she couldn't be bothered to say
0:15:11 > 0:15:14"No", which, we've all been in, like, a situation with a boy trying
0:15:14 > 0:15:16to force himself on us and you just,
0:15:16 > 0:15:20in the end, you just go, "OK, fine, whatever."
0:15:20 > 0:15:23They were throwing around really harsh accusations
0:15:23 > 0:15:27straightaway that he was raping her and it was all morally wrong,
0:15:27 > 0:15:30but, then, if you actually took that into a real-life scenario
0:15:30 > 0:15:32and someone gave someone else a blow job at a party,
0:15:32 > 0:15:37it's not unheard of, and the fact that they had history together
0:15:37 > 0:15:39and they've been seeing in the past,
0:15:39 > 0:15:42like, it just, to me, didn't seem bad.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45Like, she was just waking up, but it's not hard to just go like that.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48It's not hard. Yeah!
0:15:48 > 0:15:52You could laugh it off and just be like, "Uh, get off me."
0:15:52 > 0:15:55- Like that.- How can you speak if you've got it in your mouth as well?
0:15:55 > 0:15:58- I mean, come on.- OK, I think we've touched on something important there.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02'Looking at the video straightaway, it looked forced to me.'
0:16:02 > 0:16:05I'm pretty adamant that that's how it was.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07What should she have done, then, to give consent?
0:16:07 > 0:16:11- Put her arms around him.- Yeah. - Or move. She just lay...
0:16:11 > 0:16:13There's a fine line and it was not crossed.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16So, yes, it can be perceived by some people as sexual assault.
0:16:16 > 0:16:18I'm not saying it was right what, happened,
0:16:18 > 0:16:19but I do not think it's sexual assault.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21The girl was awake and she didn't exactly consent,
0:16:21 > 0:16:24but she didn't say no and it...
0:16:24 > 0:16:26I don't think he would even end up in court.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29- It was a misunderstanding.- I think the line was crossed obviously.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31No, I'm saying there's a thin line between...
0:16:31 > 0:16:33She didn't hold his penis and put it in her mouth, it was pushed.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36- It was a thin line between... - I don't think it was sexual assault,
0:16:36 > 0:16:39I think she went along with it, so it's fine.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42It has been really interesting hearing what you've all got to say
0:16:42 > 0:16:44and it's great that there is a range of opinions.
0:16:44 > 0:16:46There's a ballot paper over there, so if you could come up,
0:16:46 > 0:16:48one at a time...
0:16:48 > 0:16:52'The question they have to vote on is, did Gemma consent?
0:16:52 > 0:16:56I was very surprised coming from a female point of view
0:16:56 > 0:16:59that they couldn't see the fact that she was a victim in the situation.
0:16:59 > 0:17:01Some of the girls were straight up saying,
0:17:01 > 0:17:03"He was drunk, you know, she'd kind of led him on,"
0:17:03 > 0:17:06and I don't think kind of being friendly
0:17:06 > 0:17:10or letting him sleep in her bed was her giving consent or saying,
0:17:10 > 0:17:12"Yes, this sexual act can happen."
0:17:12 > 0:17:15I felt like a lot of people were a little bit worried,
0:17:15 > 0:17:18you know, if they said it wasn't rape, they're going to be shunned
0:17:18 > 0:17:20and that's what I felt like people were doing.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22That, to me, is an issue because we're here
0:17:22 > 0:17:24and we're supposed to be telling people what we think
0:17:24 > 0:17:27and if you're going to cover it up, what's the point of being here?
0:17:27 > 0:17:29- You write your name...- Oh, right.
0:17:29 > 0:17:34'And here's how the group voted on the question - did Gemma consent?
0:17:34 > 0:17:36'13% voted yes.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39'54% voted no
0:17:39 > 0:17:42'and 33% voted don't know.'
0:17:43 > 0:17:46I said that she did consent
0:17:46 > 0:17:51because she didn't make any action to move away or to...
0:17:51 > 0:17:54She could've laughed it off, she could've been like,
0:17:54 > 0:17:57"Stop it, I don't want to." But she didn't, and...
0:17:58 > 0:18:00..a lot of people, we all said the same thing,
0:18:00 > 0:18:02we all said she didn't give consent
0:18:02 > 0:18:05but she didn't NOT give consent, but I came to the conclusion that
0:18:05 > 0:18:08that therefore meant that she had consented.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11I don't think she consented, so I see it as rape or sexual abuse
0:18:11 > 0:18:13because he forced himself upon her.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16Even if he misconstrued what she said,
0:18:16 > 0:18:19he's still forcing himself upon her, so he's in the wrong.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21I don't think she did give any consent,
0:18:21 > 0:18:26either verbal or physical, but, at the same time,
0:18:26 > 0:18:30I was on the verge of saying I don't know because she didn't...
0:18:30 > 0:18:32Equally she didn't give any objection.
0:18:33 > 0:18:35Gemma...
0:18:35 > 0:18:39Right, now we know how the group have reacted to the first part
0:18:39 > 0:18:41of Gemma and Tom's story,
0:18:41 > 0:18:44but things are about to get a little more complicated.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49We're going to watch the next bit of the drama now, OK?
0:18:52 > 0:18:55I'm bringing the whole group together now to watch the second part
0:18:55 > 0:19:00of the drama about the sexual encounter between Gemma and Tom.
0:19:00 > 0:19:03After watching it, the group will vote on the next question.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06- PHONE RINGING - 'Emergency, which service?
0:19:08 > 0:19:10- 'Hello? - I want to speak to the police.'
0:19:11 > 0:19:13This guy I know, he...
0:19:13 > 0:19:15Did something to me.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20Mr Morris, tell me about the night of the party.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24I wasn't even going out and then I got a text from Gemma asking
0:19:24 > 0:19:27if I was heading down so I thought, "Yeah, why not?"
0:19:27 > 0:19:30Text retrieved from Ms Selby's phone.
0:19:30 > 0:19:35"Hey, party at Amy's, you coming? Gem. Kiss, kiss, kiss."
0:19:37 > 0:19:40The two of you had a previous relationship, is that correct?
0:19:40 > 0:19:43Yeah, we went out for about three months or something.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46Honestly, that's why when I got the text...
0:19:46 > 0:19:48I thought she was still interested.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50What happened at the party?
0:19:50 > 0:19:52Erm... She kept looking over.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57My mate Phil, he told me that he'd got with her.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01Been bombarding me with texts ever since, though. Proper stalker.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03You know what she's like, though.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05'I just remember her looking over all night.'
0:20:05 > 0:20:08Any time we spoke, our faces were...
0:20:09 > 0:20:11..so close, practically touching.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14I just kept thinking she wanted to get back together or something.
0:20:17 > 0:20:18Ms Selby.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22Do you deny Mr Morris' version of events?
0:20:22 > 0:20:24I was just having a laugh.
0:20:24 > 0:20:25It was a party.
0:20:25 > 0:20:30Now, Mr Morris claims that you were close with him all night, intimate.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33It was loud. You had to get close to hear anyone.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35- But you deny flirting with him.- Yes.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41I don't know. Maybe.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44I just flirt, the same as most people.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47Just mates, just chatting.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50But you did have a previous relationship with Mr Morris.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52Well, not a relationship.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54We went for a few drinks.
0:20:55 > 0:21:01Do you send intimate photos of yourself to everyone you drink with?
0:21:01 > 0:21:07This image from Ms Selby's phone sent to Mr Morris via Snapchat.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10It was proper early on, it was a joke.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13OK. Was this one a joke too?
0:21:13 > 0:21:16- It didn't mean anything. - With images like these,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19is it any wonder Mr Morris was under the impression that you liked him?
0:21:21 > 0:21:24Now tell me about the previous relationship with Mr Morris.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27We never slept together.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30There was some, like, touching, I guess.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32Kissing.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36All the times we ever did stuff...
0:21:36 > 0:21:38By stuff you mean sexual.
0:21:38 > 0:21:39..I was never into it.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43I just... I didn't really fancy him.
0:21:44 > 0:21:45It's why I finished it.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50Tell me about Mr Morris' friend, Phil.
0:21:50 > 0:21:52'Just had a snog, you know.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55- 'We were both pretty drunk. - Did you give him oral sex?'
0:21:55 > 0:21:56No.
0:21:56 > 0:22:00Had the two of you ever had sexual contact prior to that encounter?
0:22:02 > 0:22:03Please answer the question.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Had the two of you ever had sexual contact before?
0:22:07 > 0:22:08Week before.
0:22:10 > 0:22:11We...
0:22:14 > 0:22:15Yes.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18When he left the party, you must've been very disappointed
0:22:18 > 0:22:23and then when he just left, you felt used, angry.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25It's not nice being humiliated, is it?
0:22:25 > 0:22:26What do you mean?
0:22:26 > 0:22:31And then when you saw Mr Morris come out of that kitchen drunk,
0:22:31 > 0:22:32you spotted your chance.
0:22:32 > 0:22:33Chance, chance for what?
0:22:33 > 0:22:36- To pay Phil back for rejecting you. - No!
0:22:36 > 0:22:39You were very happy when Mr Morris came out of that kitchen,
0:22:39 > 0:22:42- you were very happy to give him oral sex.- He made me.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44Then why didn't you put a stop to it?
0:22:44 > 0:22:47All you needed to say was no, it all would've been very simple.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51You could've called out to your friend in the upstairs room.
0:22:51 > 0:22:52I don't know...
0:22:54 > 0:22:57I just couldn't. I...
0:22:57 > 0:22:58I just froze.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Maybe the next day you got worried that when it got around college
0:23:01 > 0:23:04that you had been intimate with Mr Morris and his best friend
0:23:04 > 0:23:08in a single night, you regretted it.
0:23:08 > 0:23:09No, that's not what happened.
0:23:09 > 0:23:11Then why did it take so long to report the alleged crime?
0:23:11 > 0:23:13It was almost two weeks.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19Hasn't this gone on far enough?
0:23:21 > 0:23:25You do realise Mr Morris could get a custodial sentence for this.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30All over a misunderstanding at a party.
0:23:40 > 0:23:41I knew it!
0:23:41 > 0:23:44THEY ALL TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:23:44 > 0:23:47The group will vote on the next question...
0:23:51 > 0:23:55- First of all, has that changed anyone's mind?- Nope.- Yeah.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58Or has that reinforced anyone's opinions that they previously had?
0:23:58 > 0:24:00- Reinforced it.- Yeah, I've completely changed my mind.
0:24:00 > 0:24:03So, I said that I thought she gave consent and, like,
0:24:03 > 0:24:05seeing that, she did not give consent at all.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07What are you basing that on?
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Well, the fact that she phoned the police, didn't she?
0:24:09 > 0:24:11- OK, two weeks later.- Two weeks...
0:24:11 > 0:24:14- Yeah, but she still, like, obviously...- In shock.- Yeah.
0:24:14 > 0:24:15- Some people...- So you think...?
0:24:15 > 0:24:18It took a year for me to tell anybody.
0:24:18 > 0:24:22Pretty much an entire year for me to tell anybody what happened.
0:24:22 > 0:24:26- So, two weeks is not that bad.- OK. - Like, two weeks is acceptable.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29'I've just realised what I've said and it's OK
0:24:29 > 0:24:33because I'm willing to open up about what has happened to me
0:24:33 > 0:24:36and I'm not afraid to say that I was sexually abused and I was raped.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41So, do any of you now feel like, in his head,
0:24:41 > 0:24:43he wasn't doing anything wrong?
0:24:43 > 0:24:46- Flirting's one thing, but when you put your...- Member!
0:24:46 > 0:24:49..your member in someone's mouth, that's a little bit weird, innit?
0:24:49 > 0:24:53No, I think it's just too far. She... You can flirt
0:24:53 > 0:24:57and you can flirt and you can flirt, it's not an invitation.
0:24:57 > 0:24:59'If it was my friend, I wouldn't call the police.'
0:24:59 > 0:25:02But he would be shunned. He'd be gone.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06I wouldn't like him as a person, but I wouldn't call the police
0:25:06 > 0:25:08because I think...
0:25:09 > 0:25:11I think that's the same with everyone, though.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14His life is going to be ruined from a misunderstanding.
0:25:14 > 0:25:17He didn't set out... Like, if you're a murderer,
0:25:17 > 0:25:19if you get prosecuted for murder,
0:25:19 > 0:25:22you had the intent to kill someone and you did that.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24He didn't have the intent...
0:25:24 > 0:25:27THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:25:27 > 0:25:30- You could look at it either way. - So, what is rape, yeah?
0:25:30 > 0:25:33Rape is usually you're intending to actually sexually assault them,
0:25:33 > 0:25:35- yeah?- But he didn't intend to.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38He didn't intend, so rape is a big word for it, but it is still rape.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40He's not innocent in this case.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43There is still a line that's been crossed
0:25:43 > 0:25:45whether or not you take it to the extent that he is a rapist.
0:25:45 > 0:25:49Now I've realised that she really didn't want that to happen.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52I kind of look back to the actual situation and think,
0:25:52 > 0:25:55if you really didn't want it to happen that bad,
0:25:55 > 0:25:57then you should've said no. And I know that's hard sometimes,
0:25:57 > 0:25:59and I know people are going to argue with me,
0:25:59 > 0:26:03but the thing is, she's taken it this far when she could've
0:26:03 > 0:26:07stopped it right there instead of, like, taking it as far as it's gone.
0:26:07 > 0:26:08So, subject of responsibility,
0:26:08 > 0:26:11this comes back to the idea of responsibility and blame.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15Some of that responsibility you feel does still lie with the girl.
0:26:15 > 0:26:19- I think it's responsibility... - In this case.- ..on both sides.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21He thinks that she flirted with him.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23That's one side of this story.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25She thinks that she was just being friendly,
0:26:25 > 0:26:27it was loud so they had to be close.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30That's one part of it. But the...
0:26:30 > 0:26:32So, that is the misunderstanding bit,
0:26:32 > 0:26:36but he did what he did by putting his penis in her mouth, that it is.
0:26:36 > 0:26:37- Yeah.- Yeah.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40We're going to wrap that up for this session now,
0:26:40 > 0:26:42but that was really good again.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45You can be at a party and there can be people upstairs having sex
0:26:45 > 0:26:50or there can be someone on the sofa, like, kissing and it's just...
0:26:50 > 0:26:53You can be kissing someone on the sofa
0:26:53 > 0:26:57and I think personally that's saying, "Do you want to have sex?"
0:26:57 > 0:27:01Well, not sex but, like, that you're interested in them
0:27:01 > 0:27:04and, like, in today's generation that can be a misunderstanding
0:27:04 > 0:27:07because just because you're kissing someone doesn't mean that
0:27:07 > 0:27:09actually you do want to have sex with them or, like,
0:27:09 > 0:27:13a sexual encounter with them just because you're kissing them.
0:27:13 > 0:27:17He chose to get in her bed. He chose to start kissing her.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19He chose to wake her up
0:27:19 > 0:27:22and he chose to sort of unzip himself
0:27:22 > 0:27:26and put her in that situation so that is his fault,
0:27:26 > 0:27:27it's not her fault.
0:27:27 > 0:27:30She'd invited him to the party, they'd been in a relationship before
0:27:30 > 0:27:33so they obviously still had a friendship
0:27:33 > 0:27:36so I think to that extent...
0:27:36 > 0:27:39I just think that...
0:27:39 > 0:27:41I don't think it was all him.
0:27:43 > 0:27:48The group is obviously really divided about what they think happened
0:27:48 > 0:27:51between Gemma and Tom, so what we're going to do now
0:27:51 > 0:27:56is bring in some real people to talk about their real life experiences.
0:27:58 > 0:28:03We're going to hear from somebody who was accused of rape, OK?
0:28:03 > 0:28:08So, I'm going to go and get him and we're going to hear him speak.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11'But one of the girls has a problem with being brought face-to-face
0:28:11 > 0:28:13'with a man who's been accused of rape.'
0:28:13 > 0:28:14He'll tell you all about it.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17No, that makes me feel kind of wary because he was accused...
0:28:17 > 0:28:20Just the fact that I'm going to bring a guy into the room
0:28:20 > 0:28:21who has been accused of rape,
0:28:21 > 0:28:24- that's making you feel slightly uncomfortable?- Yeah.- Mm-hm.
0:28:24 > 0:28:26I didn't know what to do, I don't know where to look.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29I felt a bit like, "Oh, my God." That is actually serious.
0:28:29 > 0:28:31It's actually like a big thing that has happened,
0:28:31 > 0:28:33I didn't think it was like that.
0:28:33 > 0:28:35How you doing? Will.
0:28:35 > 0:28:37- Yeah, good, nice to meet you, man. - You too.- Thanks for...
0:28:37 > 0:28:42'Kayode is a businessman who spent three weeks in jail on remand
0:28:42 > 0:28:45'after being accused of rape by a woman he met on the internet.
0:28:49 > 0:28:53'It went to court, but was thrown out by the judge.
0:28:53 > 0:28:55'Even though incidents of false accusations of rape
0:28:55 > 0:29:00'are not that common, we've called Kayode to force the group
0:29:00 > 0:29:03'to think carefully about the decision they have to make.'
0:29:03 > 0:29:06What happened? What were you accused of and how?
0:29:06 > 0:29:10Er, 2013, I was accused of...
0:29:10 > 0:29:13Falsely accused of rape and kidnap.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16'He's been actually accused of something like rape.'
0:29:16 > 0:29:18That's massive, that's like...
0:29:18 > 0:29:20To me, that's like the worst thing you could ever be accused of -
0:29:20 > 0:29:22worse than murder, in my eyes.
0:29:22 > 0:29:25So, yeah, I didn't like him at first.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28My nightmare started after they charged me
0:29:28 > 0:29:29and then they kept me on remand.
0:29:29 > 0:29:33So for a brief period, for about three weeks, I was put in prison.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35I had to pay £10,000, I was on a tag,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38electronic tag, my passport was seized
0:29:38 > 0:29:42and I was monitored, you know, I was restricted.
0:29:42 > 0:29:47But meanwhile, your whole life starts collapsing around you.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50I was subject to media attention, as well,
0:29:50 > 0:29:52and my name was out there
0:29:52 > 0:29:55and it was very difficult for my family, it was difficult for me.
0:29:55 > 0:30:01I had to sort of go into hiding and finances ran dry,
0:30:01 > 0:30:04business, it collapsed, you know,
0:30:04 > 0:30:08went as far as the banks closed my accounts down, it was just...
0:30:08 > 0:30:10It was... I was thrown into the dark age.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13I couldn't really focus on my personal life
0:30:13 > 0:30:14because I had to focus on my trial,
0:30:14 > 0:30:17you know, I was looking at life behind bars.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21I would've come out in my 60s, you know, when I got released.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23So, it was the focus...
0:30:30 > 0:30:32I felt sorry for him.
0:30:32 > 0:30:33I felt a bit, like, taken aback.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36I didn't think he was going to start crying.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39It was really sad and I actually understood what happened,
0:30:39 > 0:30:41I actually felt sorry for him,
0:30:41 > 0:30:44even though I was totally against him at first. Yeah.
0:30:44 > 0:30:48- It clearly doesn't get any easier. - No.
0:30:48 > 0:30:52- I would rather have been accused of murder.- Yeah.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54The trial happened and everything was coming out,
0:30:54 > 0:30:57- the truth was coming out.- The judge literally put a stop to the trial.
0:30:57 > 0:31:02Yeah, yeah, it got to the point it was laughable. I didn't rape her.
0:31:02 > 0:31:04- Do you understand what I'm saying? - Yeah, yeah.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06Rape is a horrible thing.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09I'm all for rapists being punished, I'm all for that -
0:31:09 > 0:31:12I'll be the first in line punishing them myself.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15But when someone's not done it, why am I being punished?
0:31:15 > 0:31:19What would you say was harder, the fact that you might have
0:31:19 > 0:31:23faced prison time or that your reputation would be ruined?
0:31:23 > 0:31:24Reputation.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28It sticks with you, bro. It sticks with you.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31Everything that he went through, his business collapsing,
0:31:31 > 0:31:36women being afraid to talk to him, him being questioned all the time.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38It's very raw stuff.
0:31:38 > 0:31:42With something like that, automatically guilty.
0:31:42 > 0:31:44Automatically.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47I think, naturally, you would just side with the woman,
0:31:47 > 0:31:51but hearing it from his side and how it actually impacted on his life,
0:31:51 > 0:31:53it was just completely shocking.
0:31:53 > 0:31:55When it comes to consent,
0:31:55 > 0:31:59do you actively seek some kind of proof of consent?
0:31:59 > 0:32:04100%. 100%. I record things, I ask clear questions.
0:32:04 > 0:32:10I ask your name, your age, where you live, are you comfortable?
0:32:10 > 0:32:13- Are you drunk?- You record this? - I record it.- Right.
0:32:13 > 0:32:17I don't want to be like this, but I've been forced to.
0:32:17 > 0:32:20- Based on my experience.- Thank you so much for coming and...- No, thank you.
0:32:20 > 0:32:21..sharing that.
0:32:21 > 0:32:25Society tells you that men accused of rape, OK, they've done it.
0:32:25 > 0:32:28There's a lot about that, but he showed a different side that's
0:32:28 > 0:32:31kind of made me think, then, if I'm making a decision,
0:32:31 > 0:32:34if it was a real person, I could ruin their life, basically.
0:32:34 > 0:32:36And it really opened up my eyes, yeah.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40Thank you, thank you, thank you.
0:32:40 > 0:32:43So has that affected their thinking as they struggle with
0:32:43 > 0:32:47the question, "Did Tom believe he had consent?"?
0:32:48 > 0:32:50I believe that Tom should be tried for rape.
0:32:50 > 0:32:52That man was very unfortunate.
0:32:52 > 0:32:57He was accused wrongly of rape, that's terrible. It's terrible.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59But Tom, Tom raped.
0:32:59 > 0:33:04I think if we could say that Tom could be charged with a sex offence
0:33:04 > 0:33:07rather than rape, we would prefer that.
0:33:07 > 0:33:12But because it comes under rape, although it is such a strong word,
0:33:12 > 0:33:14- it is classed as that.- OK, OK.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17Yeah, I agree with that, but, at the same time, he's going
0:33:17 > 0:33:20to be convicted for rape.
0:33:20 > 0:33:24Is it fair that he would get the same sentence as someone who
0:33:24 > 0:33:26randomly approached a woman, attacked her
0:33:26 > 0:33:30and, like, violently raped her?
0:33:30 > 0:33:34With the current justice system, the whole thing would fall apart
0:33:34 > 0:33:35if you make excuses.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37You can't say, "It's not that bad,"
0:33:37 > 0:33:40because the next thing's not that bad. You have to draw a line.
0:33:40 > 0:33:42If it comes under rape, it comes under rape.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44At first I was saying, yeah, 100% rape,
0:33:44 > 0:33:47but I would still have to look at both sides.
0:33:47 > 0:33:50I'm more understanding to Tom that he would see
0:33:50 > 0:33:54it, in his eyes, that he was led on, but it still isn't acceptable,
0:33:54 > 0:33:57so I'm still with my point, but it's made me
0:33:57 > 0:33:59accept it and understand it more.
0:33:59 > 0:34:03We've seen how much it ruined Kayode's life just being accused,
0:34:03 > 0:34:05and this Tom, he's only really young and, yeah,
0:34:05 > 0:34:08he has done something I believe is morally wrong,
0:34:08 > 0:34:10but we've all done things which are bad,
0:34:10 > 0:34:13morally wrong, in some situations, and also legally wrong.
0:34:13 > 0:34:14OK, OK.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17A few people saying beforehand, "Oh, watching the video
0:34:17 > 0:34:20"he looked a bit shifty, he looked like he was premeditating it," but
0:34:20 > 0:34:25I don't think that at all, he seemed perfectly normal, nice kind of guy.
0:34:25 > 0:34:30That's why I would not expect him to have done that at all.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32- OK, one at a time.- I'll go first.
0:34:32 > 0:34:36They now have to put themselves inside Tom's head to answer
0:34:36 > 0:34:37this question.
0:34:42 > 0:34:43And here's how they voted.
0:34:54 > 0:35:00I said yes because they'd been in a relationship in the past,
0:35:00 > 0:35:04they'd done sexual activity in the past.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07He thought that they'd been flirting throughout the night
0:35:07 > 0:35:11and she let him into her bed, which, he could think, like,
0:35:11 > 0:35:13"Oh, she's letting me in her bed, best make a move,
0:35:13 > 0:35:16"don't want to waste an opportunity."
0:35:16 > 0:35:19Consent itself is very subjective.
0:35:19 > 0:35:21In the way that Tom, the main character,
0:35:21 > 0:35:23he didn't fully understand that she was not into it,
0:35:23 > 0:35:25she was not up for it and she did not give consent.
0:35:25 > 0:35:27I straightaway ticked no.
0:35:27 > 0:35:30I don't believe he thought he had consent
0:35:30 > 0:35:34because he wasn't completely drunk, he had passed out and woken up.
0:35:34 > 0:35:35He looked pretty sober to me.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38He'd gone out of his way to wake up the girl,
0:35:38 > 0:35:42get in her bed and then start trying to touch her.
0:35:42 > 0:35:43For me, as far as I'm concerned,
0:35:43 > 0:35:46he knew that there was no consent given.
0:35:46 > 0:35:52I said I don't know, because I think that it is there.
0:35:52 > 0:35:56I think that things are there for him to think that, but I don't
0:35:56 > 0:36:00think he has enough reasons to be completely,
0:36:00 > 0:36:02"Yes, she wanted it."
0:36:04 > 0:36:05So, on the one hand,
0:36:05 > 0:36:09most of the group thought that Gemma didn't consent, which means rape.
0:36:09 > 0:36:12But now it's much more confusing for the group because more than
0:36:12 > 0:36:17half of them have voted that Tom believed he did have consent.
0:36:17 > 0:36:18So where does that leave us?
0:36:20 > 0:36:22It's the end of day one.
0:36:22 > 0:36:25Tomorrow the group will watch the final part of the story
0:36:25 > 0:36:27of Gemma and Tom
0:36:27 > 0:36:29and they will vote on the final
0:36:29 > 0:36:31question, "Is this rape?"
0:36:39 > 0:36:42Sit where you were sitting before.
0:36:42 > 0:36:45I've brought the group back to the viewing room to see the last
0:36:45 > 0:36:46part of the story.
0:36:46 > 0:36:50And, remember, after that, they will be voting on the final
0:36:50 > 0:36:54and most crucial question, "Is this rape?"
0:36:54 > 0:36:57And now we're going to see the rest, OK?
0:36:57 > 0:37:02Mr Morris, I'd like to talk a little bit about the text
0:37:02 > 0:37:03inviting you to the party.
0:37:03 > 0:37:08Why do you say that it indicated Ms Selby was still into you?
0:37:09 > 0:37:11Because of how it was put.
0:37:11 > 0:37:13All flirty with three kisses.
0:37:14 > 0:37:16Just the same as when we were going out.
0:37:16 > 0:37:19You are aware that it was a group text?
0:37:22 > 0:37:26Now, I'd like to discuss Ms Selby's flirting.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29Isn't it possible that you just misread the signals?
0:37:29 > 0:37:32What you perceived as flirting was nothing more than
0:37:32 > 0:37:34a young woman enjoying herself?
0:37:34 > 0:37:37Perhaps you were upset.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39Of what?
0:37:39 > 0:37:41About the fact Ms Selby had rejected you.
0:37:43 > 0:37:44Is that why you kept on drinking?
0:37:44 > 0:37:46No, no, everyone was drinking.
0:37:48 > 0:37:50After the party was finished,
0:37:50 > 0:37:54what gave the impression that Ms Selby wanted you to sleep over?
0:37:56 > 0:38:00Well, because she was fine with me being there.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03We had slept in the same bed loads before,
0:38:03 > 0:38:05so I just climbed up on the sofa bed.
0:38:05 > 0:38:08- Then what happened?- Erm...
0:38:08 > 0:38:11I don't know, we kissed.
0:38:11 > 0:38:12Did she kiss you back?
0:38:14 > 0:38:17I don't know, I can't remember.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20- Did she say anything?- She didn't say anything like "stop" or anything.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23But she didn't do anything to indicate that she wanted you
0:38:23 > 0:38:27- to continue?- She would definitely have said if she wasn't into it.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30- What happened after that? - We moved on.
0:38:31 > 0:38:34You moved to get on top of her?
0:38:35 > 0:38:37Yeah.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40At first, it was awkward, embarrassing.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43I thought maybe if I didn't respond, he'd like...
0:38:43 > 0:38:45get the message.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48Did she say anything?
0:38:48 > 0:38:51I don't know, I can't remember.
0:38:51 > 0:38:57- Mr Morris, did she respond in any way at all?- Yeah, maybe.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03I don't know. She wasn't upset or anything.
0:39:05 > 0:39:06It was all fine.
0:39:07 > 0:39:09- She was into it.- Really?
0:39:09 > 0:39:12If she didn't say anything, didn't respond,
0:39:12 > 0:39:15how do you know she wanted you to continue?
0:39:15 > 0:39:17- Because I was there. I could tell.- How?
0:39:20 > 0:39:24Mr Morris, weren't you still drunk at this point?
0:39:24 > 0:39:26Yeah, but not so much so that...
0:39:30 > 0:39:31That's when he...
0:39:32 > 0:39:35..moved.
0:39:35 > 0:39:37She started, you know...
0:39:39 > 0:39:40..sucking.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44Where were your hands during this oral sex?
0:39:44 > 0:39:46Erm, maybe one...
0:39:46 > 0:39:48On the back of her neck, yeah?
0:39:51 > 0:39:52Where were her hands?
0:39:54 > 0:39:58I don't remember. Like, all over me. She was into it.
0:39:58 > 0:40:02Again, how did you know?
0:40:02 > 0:40:04You know, she didn't exactly stop.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06- SHE WHIMPERS - I just froze.
0:40:09 > 0:40:10I wanted it to stop.
0:40:14 > 0:40:18How could I make her? It was her mouth, she was the one doing it.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22No, she would have stopped.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25Mr Morris, one more thing.
0:40:25 > 0:40:27You claim that throughout the evening
0:40:27 > 0:40:30Ms Selby gave a strong indication that she was still
0:40:30 > 0:40:34interested in you and that at no point did you have any reason
0:40:34 > 0:40:38to think what occurred was against Miss Selby's wishes.
0:40:39 > 0:40:40Hmm?
0:40:40 > 0:40:47And yet you sent two text messages to a friend later that morning.
0:40:49 > 0:40:53"Mate, got it on with Gem last night. Had better.
0:40:55 > 0:40:56"She didn't even do anything."
0:40:58 > 0:41:01And an hour later, to the same recipient,
0:41:01 > 0:41:05"She wasn't that into it but, hey, party's a party."
0:41:07 > 0:41:11Don't these messages show that you knew full well that
0:41:11 > 0:41:14Ms Selby did not give her consent?
0:41:16 > 0:41:19But you carried on with that sexual act.
0:41:19 > 0:41:21Just to please yourself.
0:41:22 > 0:41:24Didn't you?
0:41:27 > 0:41:28Because you raped her.
0:41:30 > 0:41:32Didn't you, Mr Morris?
0:41:35 > 0:41:40Now, they will be voting on the final and most crucial question.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45As the group tackles the question, it's becoming clear
0:41:45 > 0:41:50they think miscommunication lies at the heart of this story.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54In that video, he used the words, what was it? "She was into it."
0:41:54 > 0:41:58I know friends of mine who have used those exact words.
0:41:58 > 0:42:01"She was into it," and the girl's side of the story saying,
0:42:01 > 0:42:02"He was all over me, I didn't like it,
0:42:02 > 0:42:04"I was trying to push him away,"
0:42:04 > 0:42:07but if there are so many guys who are thinking
0:42:07 > 0:42:10she was into it when clearly she wasn't, in her opinion,
0:42:10 > 0:42:13then how are all the guys supposed to know?
0:42:13 > 0:42:15When we were talking about it as girls yesterday,
0:42:15 > 0:42:18we're 12 girls, none of us know each other and most of us
0:42:18 > 0:42:21said that it had happened to us or we know a girl it's happened to.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24- I think that shows how common it is. - Right.
0:42:24 > 0:42:27This is really interesting because if you know people that that's
0:42:27 > 0:42:31happened to, then you probably know the people that have done that.
0:42:31 > 0:42:35Maybe you've even got guy mates that are all right guys that might
0:42:35 > 0:42:37have done similar stuff to that.
0:42:37 > 0:42:39Would you say that's true?
0:42:39 > 0:42:42- Yes.- Yes.- Let's just have a general show of hands.
0:42:42 > 0:42:47If you've got friends that something similar to that has happened to.
0:42:47 > 0:42:49And you know the people that have done it to them...
0:42:49 > 0:42:52and those people that have done it to them are maybe your mates.
0:42:52 > 0:42:54Some girls don't want to say no
0:42:54 > 0:42:56because they don't want to be seen as a prude,
0:42:56 > 0:42:59so that's, like, really hard-hitting because you should be able to
0:42:59 > 0:43:03say no and not care what other people think about it.
0:43:03 > 0:43:04But then, at the same time, boys are like,
0:43:04 > 0:43:06"Oh, you're just playing hard to get,"
0:43:06 > 0:43:08when really you're like,
0:43:08 > 0:43:10"No, I don't want to," and boys think it's a game.
0:43:10 > 0:43:13I know people that have been in situations where
0:43:13 > 0:43:16they haven't given consent to their boyfriend, even,
0:43:16 > 0:43:19for sex for that particular time, but their boyfriend's
0:43:19 > 0:43:20gone ahead with it anyway.
0:43:20 > 0:43:24And body language, as we've seen in that video,
0:43:24 > 0:43:25is not enough consent,
0:43:25 > 0:43:27I don't think.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30I think, from personal experience, saying no is a really big thing.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32Especially if you've got a relationship with someone already.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35If it's a friend or if you have had a past relationship with them.
0:43:35 > 0:43:37Saying no to someone...
0:43:39 > 0:43:40..isn't a must.
0:43:41 > 0:43:45But I personally think that if you were with someone, if you were
0:43:45 > 0:43:48laid next to someone you cared about and who cared about you...
0:43:48 > 0:43:53they would know from your body reactions, how you would sit,
0:43:53 > 0:43:56how you would lay, that you wouldn't want it.
0:43:57 > 0:43:59You know how we were all saying that we've heard of someone
0:43:59 > 0:44:02or we know someone that this has happened to?
0:44:02 > 0:44:05As a girl, I don't know about the rest of you, but after watching that
0:44:05 > 0:44:09I don't think I'd report it because, like, as soon as a girl is raped
0:44:09 > 0:44:12she's asked, like, "What were you wearing, then? You deserved it."
0:44:12 > 0:44:17And that's so bad that we live in a society where it's the girl's fault.
0:44:17 > 0:44:19Yeah.
0:44:19 > 0:44:21It's an interesting point.
0:44:21 > 0:44:23Beth, hello, how are you?
0:44:23 > 0:44:27'And I'm about to bring in someone with personal experience of this.'
0:44:27 > 0:44:30- Thank you so much for coming. You all right?- You all right?
0:44:30 > 0:44:35'Beth was a university student when she says she was raped.'
0:44:35 > 0:44:37This is Beth.
0:44:37 > 0:44:38- Hi.- This is everyone.
0:44:38 > 0:44:41She went home with a man who she met in a bar on a night out.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44She had been drinking heavily with him.
0:44:44 > 0:44:49I remember sitting down on his bed, him putting the movie on
0:44:49 > 0:44:53and then I passed out and then I remember him on top of me
0:44:53 > 0:44:54and I remember saying,
0:44:54 > 0:44:58"No, get off me," and trying to move my head away as he tried to kiss me.
0:44:58 > 0:45:00Then I passed out again.
0:45:00 > 0:45:02And then when I woke up in the morning,
0:45:02 > 0:45:06my clothes are on the floor and I just immediately felt sick
0:45:06 > 0:45:07and wanted to get out of there.
0:45:07 > 0:45:11I sat up, he grabbed my arm, "Where do you think you're going?"
0:45:11 > 0:45:12I said, "I'm just going to the loo."
0:45:12 > 0:45:14I grabbed my stuff and ran out of the house.
0:45:14 > 0:45:17But because everyone had told me before
0:45:17 > 0:45:19if you let the guy buy you drinks,
0:45:19 > 0:45:21if you're friendly, if you're willing go back to theirs,
0:45:21 > 0:45:24it's your fault. You asked for it.
0:45:24 > 0:45:25So...I didn't tell anybody.
0:45:25 > 0:45:27Eventually...
0:45:27 > 0:45:31after a few years, I broke down because I couldn't hold the guilt in any more
0:45:31 > 0:45:33and I've had friends say they don't believe me.
0:45:33 > 0:45:34Um...
0:45:34 > 0:45:36When, eventually, I did tell the police,
0:45:36 > 0:45:38they were very kind to me,
0:45:38 > 0:45:40but they were very honest about the fact that
0:45:40 > 0:45:43I was wearing a short skirt, and I'd been drunk
0:45:43 > 0:45:45and I'd gone back to the house willingly -
0:45:45 > 0:45:47that's all stuff the defence uses.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50They were very honest that that would that mean it probably
0:45:50 > 0:45:52wouldn't even go to trial.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55And do you think that maybe your attacker...
0:45:58 > 0:46:00..he was somebody who was of the opinion that
0:46:00 > 0:46:03because you had drinks and stuff
0:46:03 > 0:46:05what he was doing was OK?
0:46:05 > 0:46:08Undoubtedly. Yeah, um...
0:46:08 > 0:46:11He contacted me about a week after to see
0:46:11 > 0:46:15if I would go out on a date with him.
0:46:15 > 0:46:16Um...
0:46:16 > 0:46:19So he had absolutely no idea, really, I don't think,
0:46:19 > 0:46:21what he'd done. So...
0:46:22 > 0:46:25- Are you all right?- No.
0:46:25 > 0:46:26Are you OK?
0:46:26 > 0:46:28I didn't tell anyone...
0:46:30 > 0:46:33A lot of it was because I thought it was my fault.
0:46:34 > 0:46:36I'm not ashamed of what happened to me.
0:46:36 > 0:46:39I know too many girls who this has happened to -
0:46:39 > 0:46:42that's why I want to tell people.
0:46:43 > 0:46:46- Yeah.- What happened to me happened quite a long time ago
0:46:46 > 0:46:51and the way I see it now is if I can tell my story and not cry,
0:46:51 > 0:46:55then I'm definitely closer to being healed.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58Does anyone have any questions for Beth?
0:46:58 > 0:47:01Would you say you was more embarrassed or scared to tell
0:47:01 > 0:47:03the truth to people?
0:47:03 > 0:47:05Both. Um...
0:47:06 > 0:47:08It was sort of a mixture of the two.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11I was ashamed. I was scared that people were going to judge me
0:47:11 > 0:47:14and I was embarrassed that I'd let myself get into that position
0:47:14 > 0:47:16and that all I was going to hear from people was,
0:47:16 > 0:47:19"You shouldn't have done this, you shouldn't have done that."
0:47:19 > 0:47:22Um, and I just felt really, really ashamed, like I should have known better.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25As the victim, you're being blamed for something that was
0:47:25 > 0:47:28out of your control - what does that feel like?
0:47:28 > 0:47:34Um... Well, it's been six years now and it doesn't get easier.
0:47:34 > 0:47:38Every time someone says to me, "It was your fault,"
0:47:38 > 0:47:40or, "You shouldn't have done this,"
0:47:40 > 0:47:42it feels like it just happened all over again
0:47:42 > 0:47:45and I blame myself all over again and I get upset.
0:47:45 > 0:47:49Hopefully, one day, I'll stop feeling ashamed.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51Well, thank you so much for coming in and talking to us.
0:47:51 > 0:47:54Even though she was raped, and even though other people will try
0:47:54 > 0:47:57to say to her, "You shouldn't have been wearing that,
0:47:57 > 0:47:59"you shouldn't have been drinking alcohol,
0:47:59 > 0:48:01"you shouldn't have gone back to his house," she understands now
0:48:01 > 0:48:04that it was not her fault.
0:48:04 > 0:48:08- Thank you so much for that. - That's all right. It's hot in there. - It's hot in there, yeah.
0:48:08 > 0:48:11What was even more disgusting, he didn't seem to think that
0:48:11 > 0:48:15it was rape because he tried to contact her,
0:48:15 > 0:48:17like, a day after and that made no sense to me
0:48:17 > 0:48:20because that is a disturbing thing to do.
0:48:20 > 0:48:21Very disturbing.
0:48:23 > 0:48:25- Yeah.- Listen, thank you so much. - Thank you.
0:48:25 > 0:48:27I was holding back tears.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30That lady in that room was really brave and I'm glad I met her
0:48:30 > 0:48:32because I think what she did today
0:48:32 > 0:48:33is going to help a lot of people.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37In this case that we've seen...
0:48:37 > 0:48:40Emotions are running high as the group struggles with the question,
0:48:40 > 0:48:41"Is this rape?"
0:48:41 > 0:48:44Some have a serious problem with the term "rapist"
0:48:44 > 0:48:46being applied to Tom.
0:48:46 > 0:48:51Calling this person a rapist implies that they did it with intent and
0:48:51 > 0:48:53they did it with the worst emotions
0:48:53 > 0:48:55and I don't think that's what Tom did.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58Even though he did rape her, I don't consider him to be a rapist.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01If you looked at it as your sister, if they say they've been raped,
0:49:01 > 0:49:05you're not going to say to them the person who raped them is not a rapist, because they are.
0:49:05 > 0:49:08So we're talking, if he raped her, is he a rapist? The answer is yes.
0:49:08 > 0:49:10As much as that is the answer.
0:49:10 > 0:49:13Tom is a rapist.
0:49:13 > 0:49:16He committed rape, he is a rapist.
0:49:16 > 0:49:20But you say the word "rapist" to someone and they think of a vile,
0:49:20 > 0:49:24monster of a person and Tom isn't a monster,
0:49:24 > 0:49:27he is a boy who did a bad thing,
0:49:27 > 0:49:30but he's a boy. He's human.
0:49:30 > 0:49:34He's a person, he didn't have evil in his heart.
0:49:34 > 0:49:38He wasn't there to debase and devalue Gemma.
0:49:40 > 0:49:44Whether or not we need a complete cultural shift of the word "rapist."
0:49:44 > 0:49:47What the actual hell are you people talking about?
0:49:47 > 0:49:53If someone said to me the person who abused me was not a rapist...
0:49:53 > 0:49:56With murder there's manslaughter and things like that,
0:49:56 > 0:49:58but rape is different.
0:49:58 > 0:49:59Rape is torture.
0:49:59 > 0:50:01You're actually torturing someone.
0:50:03 > 0:50:05I don't understand how anyone can
0:50:05 > 0:50:09verbalise this isn't that bad.
0:50:09 > 0:50:13It is... What it is, is, it is rape, OK?
0:50:21 > 0:50:25It's time for the group to cast their final vote.
0:50:25 > 0:50:27The question, "Is this rape?"
0:50:30 > 0:50:33The story of Gemma and Tom, it's all about consent -
0:50:33 > 0:50:36did she consent to what happened?
0:50:36 > 0:50:38Did he believe she consented?
0:50:38 > 0:50:41The group have debated, they've fought with each other,
0:50:41 > 0:50:44but now it's time to bring in somebody who can tell them
0:50:44 > 0:50:46what the actual legal position is on everything
0:50:46 > 0:50:48they've been discussing and voting on.
0:50:51 > 0:50:54- How are you doing?- Yeah, good.
0:50:54 > 0:50:58Abigail Husbands is the barrister who helped us devise our drama.
0:50:58 > 0:51:02It's based on real-life cases she has prosecuted and defended.
0:51:05 > 0:51:08OK, guys. This is Abigail.
0:51:08 > 0:51:11So what exactly does a jury have to consider when deciding
0:51:11 > 0:51:14whether to convict someone of rape?
0:51:15 > 0:51:17Let's go through the case.
0:51:17 > 0:51:20Legally, what is the definition of rape?
0:51:20 > 0:51:23Well, rape, there are three questions that the jury
0:51:23 > 0:51:26would have to...would be told they've got to answer.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29Those questions are, firstly,
0:51:29 > 0:51:34are you sure in this case that Tom penetrated either Gemma's mouth,
0:51:34 > 0:51:38vagina or anus? We know it was mouth in this case.
0:51:38 > 0:51:40Tom's not disputing that, he's saying all along,
0:51:40 > 0:51:44"Yes, that did happen," so that's not an issue in this case.
0:51:44 > 0:51:49Secondly, are you sure that Gemma did not consent?
0:51:49 > 0:51:52OK. The idea of consent.
0:51:52 > 0:51:56What's important is whether she consented that night to that act.
0:51:56 > 0:52:00It doesn't matter how much they've been together beforehand,
0:52:00 > 0:52:03it doesn't matter whether she sent pictures on Snapchat,
0:52:03 > 0:52:05none of that has a bearing on consent
0:52:05 > 0:52:07and whether Gemma consented.
0:52:07 > 0:52:12Then, finally, are you sure that Tom did not reasonably believe
0:52:12 > 0:52:14that she was consenting?
0:52:14 > 0:52:17Essentially, that he didn't believe she was consenting,
0:52:17 > 0:52:19just went ahead and did it anyway.
0:52:21 > 0:52:24What you've got to look at is what she was doing.
0:52:24 > 0:52:26She was doing nothing.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29She wasn't responding, she had her arms down by her side,
0:52:29 > 0:52:33she wasn't kissing him. She wasn't inviting any of that.
0:52:33 > 0:52:37Looking at that, I'd say, no, there was no reasonable belief in consent.
0:52:37 > 0:52:41Is there anything that you think conclusively convicts him?
0:52:41 > 0:52:44The text messages are pretty damning evidence.
0:52:44 > 0:52:48"She wasn't that into it but, hey, a party's a party."
0:52:50 > 0:52:54There, he knows when he's writing that text message to his mate.
0:52:54 > 0:52:58It might be a bit of bravado, but it goes further than that,
0:52:58 > 0:52:59I'd say those text messages,
0:52:59 > 0:53:03because it shows exactly what was in his brain straight after that act.
0:53:03 > 0:53:06Based on all of that, you think Tom would be convicted of rape?
0:53:06 > 0:53:07Yes. Yes.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13So they finally learnt that, under the law,
0:53:13 > 0:53:16Tom did rape Gemma.
0:53:16 > 0:53:20We didn't realise that what happened between Tom and Gemma
0:53:20 > 0:53:22would be classed as rape.
0:53:22 > 0:53:28A lot of us thought it only applied if there was actual sex going on.
0:53:28 > 0:53:32I find him really similar to boys at home that I know,
0:53:32 > 0:53:36that have done things like this, and I don't see it as rape.
0:53:36 > 0:53:40It's wrong what he'd done and, if there was a different criminal justice system,
0:53:40 > 0:53:42then I would say, yes, convict him of rape,
0:53:42 > 0:53:45but because of the consequences on a young person's life,
0:53:45 > 0:53:47I don't think he should be convicted of rape.
0:53:49 > 0:53:52And this is how the group voted on the final question,
0:53:52 > 0:53:54"Is this rape?"
0:54:06 > 0:54:10So the group has decided that Tom raped Gemma.
0:54:10 > 0:54:14Under the law, he automatically faces a seven-year jail sentence,
0:54:14 > 0:54:19but some of them are arguing that his punishment is too severe.
0:54:19 > 0:54:21I think what he did was wrong.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24And I think it was rape, but I still feel sympathy for him
0:54:24 > 0:54:27and I agree with the law in calling him guilty,
0:54:27 > 0:54:29but, if I'm honest, I don't think he should go to prison.
0:54:29 > 0:54:34He deserves a long jail sentence to serve his time.
0:54:34 > 0:54:37I don't think it's fair to give them giant jail sentences.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39I think it would be counter-productive.
0:54:39 > 0:54:44I think he will learn his lesson and he's not likely to reoffend.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48So that's why I didn't think he deserves a giant sentence.
0:54:48 > 0:54:51You can't brush things off, it's not a case of he's quite nice,
0:54:51 > 0:54:55so he can go. He's done this and he has to pay for it.
0:54:55 > 0:54:58He's a young boy, it was a mistake,
0:54:58 > 0:55:00things like this do happen.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03He shouldn't have his life ruined for it.
0:55:03 > 0:55:07He could, like, be helped, rather than being shoved in a prison
0:55:07 > 0:55:08with murderers.
0:55:08 > 0:55:11It is probably one of the most painful things
0:55:11 > 0:55:13someone can go through.
0:55:13 > 0:55:17Not of it happening, but the after effects.
0:55:18 > 0:55:23The years and years of emotional turmoil, that you don't trust
0:55:23 > 0:55:25yourself and you don't trust people around you.
0:55:27 > 0:55:29That you flinch every time someone comes near you,
0:55:29 > 0:55:32it's all of those different things that you need to listen
0:55:32 > 0:55:36and understand that it's not fair
0:55:36 > 0:55:39what a rapist will do to anybody.
0:55:51 > 0:55:56The last few days have seen this group make crucial decisions
0:55:56 > 0:55:59around the controversial issues of what is consent and what is rape.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04Now we've actually seen it can be normal people,
0:56:04 > 0:56:06it can be your friends, it can be people you trust.
0:56:06 > 0:56:09That is the main thing which I really think I've learnt.
0:56:09 > 0:56:15It is a worry that it's everyday people who can end up doing
0:56:15 > 0:56:17what is classed as rape.
0:56:19 > 0:56:22I want to tell all my friends to make sure every single person
0:56:22 > 0:56:26I know, especially for lads, that, you know, even something
0:56:26 > 0:56:29as simple as a misunderstanding can lead to seven years in jail.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32Boys AND girls have responsibility to ask each other
0:56:32 > 0:56:35constantly, are you sure you want to have sex? Are you sure?
0:56:35 > 0:56:37Are you still sure ten minutes in,
0:56:37 > 0:56:39are you still sure you want to carry on with this?
0:56:39 > 0:56:44I've already questioned myself, have I actually done something
0:56:44 > 0:56:46and not known that I've done it?
0:56:46 > 0:56:48That boy Tom, he knew what he was doing was wrong,
0:56:48 > 0:56:50but he didn't know it was rape.
0:56:50 > 0:56:55In the same way that something that we could have done, is it wrong?
0:56:55 > 0:56:56Cos...
0:56:56 > 0:56:59Hundreds of different possibilities,
0:56:59 > 0:57:01what are the chances that 24 people haven't done one of them?