0:00:02 > 0:00:05The British justice system is the envy of the world.
0:00:05 > 0:00:08But in the past, mistakes have been made.
0:00:08 > 0:00:11Between the year 1900 and the year 1964,
0:00:11 > 0:00:15approximately 800 people were hanged in the United Kingdom.
0:00:15 > 0:00:19Many of those desperately protested their innocence.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Some of these long-standing convictions could be
0:00:22 > 0:00:24a miscarriage of justice.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27She's received most of the blows in this position,
0:00:27 > 0:00:28once she's already bleeding.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33In this series, a living relative will attempt to clear their family name...
0:00:33 > 0:00:36I would dearly love for him to be innocent.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38..searching for new evidence...
0:00:38 > 0:00:42I can make the .32 fire both calibres.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48..with help from two of the UK's leading barristers,
0:00:48 > 0:00:49one for the defence...
0:00:49 > 0:00:54This is a very worrying case. I think the evidence is very suspect.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56..and one for the prosecution.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00I'm still of the view that this was a cogent case of murder,
0:01:00 > 0:01:03committed during the course of a robbery.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06They are on a mission to solve the mystery,
0:01:06 > 0:01:10submitting their findings to a Crown Court judge.
0:01:10 > 0:01:15There is a real risk that there has been a miscarriage of justice here.
0:01:15 > 0:01:16I will look again at the evidence
0:01:16 > 0:01:20in the light of the arguments that you both have put before me.
0:01:20 > 0:01:25Can this modern investigation rewrite history?
0:01:33 > 0:01:38In Newcastle in 1910, there occurred a case stranger than fiction,
0:01:38 > 0:01:41with all the hallmarks of an Agatha Christie mystery -
0:01:41 > 0:01:44a whodunnit murder on a train.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46On Friday the 18th of March
0:01:46 > 0:01:48a colliery cashier called John Nisbet
0:01:48 > 0:01:52boarded the 10:27 train from Newcastle Central Station.
0:01:54 > 0:01:58The 44-year-old was carrying £370 in wages
0:01:58 > 0:02:00for the workers at a local coal mine.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03A delivery he never made.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06GUNSHOTS
0:02:06 > 0:02:09Nisbet was brutally murdered for the cash he carried,
0:02:09 > 0:02:11shot in the head five times.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15His body was found stuffed beneath a carriage seat by the porter
0:02:15 > 0:02:17at Alnmouth station at the end of the line.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20When police searched the crime scene,
0:02:20 > 0:02:23they found two different calibre of bullets,
0:02:23 > 0:02:27leading officers to initially suspect two assailants,
0:02:27 > 0:02:31until several key witnesses led police to a local bookmaker
0:02:31 > 0:02:33called John Dickman,
0:02:33 > 0:02:37who was subsequently arrested, charged, and convicted of murder.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40Despite staunchly protesting his innocence,
0:02:40 > 0:02:44on the 10th of August 1910 Dickman was executed.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47The last man to be hanged at Newcastle Prison.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54I've known for nearly 40 years
0:02:54 > 0:02:58that my great-grandfather was hung for murder.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Now, over 100 years later,
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Dickman's great-grandson, Rowan,
0:03:04 > 0:03:08wants to know if he was executed for a crime he did not commit.
0:03:09 > 0:03:14It must be an horrendous journey to the gallows.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17To know that you're going to lose your life.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20I have an open mind as to whether he did it or not.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24A former clerk turned professional gambler with a love of horse racing,
0:03:24 > 0:03:26Dickman operated as a wheeler dealer
0:03:26 > 0:03:28on the fringes of the mining industry.
0:03:28 > 0:03:33I do know he's a person that lived, I think, very much on the edge.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36But that doesn't make him a murderer, of course.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39To unearth the truth about his great-grandfather,
0:03:39 > 0:03:43Rowan will be helped by two of the country's best legal minds.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46Jeremy Dein QC is a top defence barrister,
0:03:46 > 0:03:48specialising in murder cases.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53Sasha Wass QC has put away some of the country's most dangerous
0:03:53 > 0:03:55and devious criminals.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57Before they start their investigation,
0:03:57 > 0:04:00the barristers have asked to meet with Rowan.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03Rowan, how nice to meet you. I'm Sasha.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05Examining a case that's over 100 years old...
0:04:05 > 0:04:09- Nice to meet you. I'm Jeremy. - ..will be no easy task.
0:04:09 > 0:04:14My role is to explore the truth of the case with a view to
0:04:14 > 0:04:17having the case reopened.
0:04:17 > 0:04:22Rowan, I will be looking at the evidence with a prosecution slant.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26That doesn't mean that I'm trying to uphold this conviction at all costs,
0:04:26 > 0:04:27far from it.
0:04:27 > 0:04:31And just so you know, I'm going to be keeping a completely open mind,
0:04:31 > 0:04:33- all right?- Absolutely.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36- All right.- What we have to do is, we have to find some new evidence,
0:04:36 > 0:04:40or some new argument, that hasn't previously been put before a court.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42That's not always easy.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46There is a chance of catastrophic evidence
0:04:46 > 0:04:51indicating that he is guilty. Now, are you prepared for that?
0:04:51 > 0:04:52- I believe I am.- Good.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55I would dearly love for him to be innocent, of course.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57That's my heart.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00My head tells me that it may be a slightly more difficult process.
0:05:03 > 0:05:08Jeremy and Sasha will examine five crucial areas of the case...
0:05:12 > 0:05:14..before submitting their findings to a senior judge
0:05:14 > 0:05:17who could recommend the case for review,
0:05:17 > 0:05:20or confirm the original guilty verdict.
0:05:21 > 0:05:23But first, the barristers need to
0:05:23 > 0:05:25get to grips with the facts of the murder.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30So, Jeremy, this was the murder of John Nisbet,
0:05:30 > 0:05:33who was carrying £370,
0:05:33 > 0:05:38nine shillings and sixpence in wages when he boarded the train from
0:05:38 > 0:05:40Newcastle to Alnmouth.
0:05:40 > 0:05:44And the prosecution case was that he was killed for the money.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Mr Nisbet was shot five times,
0:05:47 > 0:05:52and John Dickman alighted the train at Morpeth.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54Well, Sasha, there are a lot of ifs and buts.
0:05:54 > 0:05:58We definitely need to scrutinise the identification evidence.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00Very strange things went on.
0:06:00 > 0:06:05Also, two calibre of bullets were fired at John Nisbet
0:06:05 > 0:06:10and the police suspected that there were two gunmen.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12It's only once John Dickman came into the frame
0:06:12 > 0:06:14that they decided on one.
0:06:14 > 0:06:17So I certainly don't accept, at this stage,
0:06:17 > 0:06:20that this is anything like an open and shut case.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27Whilst Jeremy and Sasha delve into the evidence,
0:06:27 > 0:06:28Rowan is travelling to Newcastle
0:06:28 > 0:06:31to learn more about his great-grandfather
0:06:31 > 0:06:33and the crime for which he hanged.
0:06:33 > 0:06:37I would like to know more about two areas.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40One is around John, and indeed the evidence that was presented,
0:06:40 > 0:06:42how the case was carried out.
0:06:42 > 0:06:46But also about my family background, which I know nothing about.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50Dickman had much in common with Nisbet,
0:06:50 > 0:06:52the man he was convicted of killing.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56Both were born in Newcastle upon Tyne, close in age,
0:06:56 > 0:06:59and happily married with two children.
0:06:59 > 0:07:02They belonged to the educated lower-middle-class,
0:07:02 > 0:07:06finding employment in Newcastle's thriving commercial centre.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08They knew each other a little, too,
0:07:08 > 0:07:12as regulars on the railway that connected the growing city to the
0:07:12 > 0:07:14collieries that fuelled its prosperity.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19On the 18th of March 1910,
0:07:19 > 0:07:23both boarded the 10:27 from Newcastle to Alnmouth.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26Only one of them got off the train alive.
0:07:28 > 0:07:32Rowan wants to start by retracing the steps his great-grandfather took
0:07:32 > 0:07:36- on that fateful day.- I've just arrived at the station, ironically,
0:07:36 > 0:07:41almost at the time John Dickman got on the train for Morpeth.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45The prosecution's case relied entirely on the testimony
0:07:45 > 0:07:48of several key witnesses. Taken together,
0:07:48 > 0:07:51their evidence puts Dickman's head in the hangman's noose.
0:07:52 > 0:07:57I'm holding here a photograph of Newcastle station, taken in 1910.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59If we look carefully we can just see
0:07:59 > 0:08:02platform five directly behind us.
0:08:02 > 0:08:06This photograph shows us exactly what it would have been like
0:08:06 > 0:08:09when John Dickman and John Nisbet walked onto the forecourt.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13On platform five, an artist called Wilson Hepple,
0:08:13 > 0:08:18who had known Dickman for 20 years, saw him with a companion,
0:08:18 > 0:08:21about to board near the front of the train.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25Just behind us is where Wilson Hepple would have seen
0:08:25 > 0:08:28both man making their way to the train.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30I'm going to now make a journey
0:08:30 > 0:08:33based on a number of witness statements,
0:08:33 > 0:08:36which I'm not so sure are as sound as they could be.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40The first stop was Heaton station,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43where John Nisbet lived with his wife, Cicely.
0:08:43 > 0:08:47She would make a habit of standing on the platform to greet her husband
0:08:47 > 0:08:49as he passed.
0:08:49 > 0:08:53It was here that Cicely Nisbet, John Nisbet's wife,
0:08:53 > 0:08:57actually saw John in the carriage.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00She is quite adamant there was one other man in there with him.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04Of course, the question is whether that was John Dickman.
0:09:04 > 0:09:07Three days after the murder,
0:09:07 > 0:09:09Dickman volunteered a statement to the police,
0:09:09 > 0:09:12explaining his movements on the day.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15Far from ruling him out as a suspect,
0:09:15 > 0:09:18the police used the information to put him in the frame.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22So, Jeremy, what John Dickman told the police was this -
0:09:22 > 0:09:27he said the reason he was on the 10:27 train from Newcastle is that
0:09:27 > 0:09:31he was going to meet someone at the Dovecot Colliery
0:09:31 > 0:09:33about a business proposition,
0:09:33 > 0:09:37and that would have involved him getting off at Stannington station.
0:09:39 > 0:09:40In his statement,
0:09:40 > 0:09:45Dickman admitted he had seen Nisbet briefly at Newcastle station,
0:09:45 > 0:09:46before buying a newspaper
0:09:46 > 0:09:50and getting in a compartment at the rear of the train.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54Mr Dickman didn't get off the train at Stannington station,
0:09:54 > 0:09:57because he was engrossed in reading the newspaper.
0:09:57 > 0:10:02At Stannington station, the deceased, John Nisbet,
0:10:02 > 0:10:04was seen alive and well.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07What we do know is that by Morpeth,
0:10:07 > 0:10:10John Nisbet was dead.
0:10:10 > 0:10:15We also know that Dickman must have alighted the train. We know that
0:10:15 > 0:10:19because he buys an excess fare ticket from a ticket inspector
0:10:19 > 0:10:21at Morpeth station.
0:10:21 > 0:10:22The ticket collector at Morpeth
0:10:22 > 0:10:25recalled a man paying an excess fare.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28Dickman admitted that man was him and, having missed his stop,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32he decided to walk back to his meeting at the Dovecot mine.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36And that's where his account becomes rather strange.
0:10:36 > 0:10:40He told police he decided to walk down this road here,
0:10:40 > 0:10:44but was taken ill where the X is marked on the map.
0:10:46 > 0:10:50Feeling ill, Dickman darted into a field to relieve himself.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53In John's statement, he maintains
0:10:53 > 0:10:57that he rested up for close to an hour,
0:10:57 > 0:10:58and realising that he couldn't
0:10:58 > 0:11:01really go any further, made his way back to Morpeth.
0:11:01 > 0:11:03When he got back to Morpeth, he met two people he knew,
0:11:03 > 0:11:05Elliott and Sanderson,
0:11:05 > 0:11:08and they can corroborate the time that he got back there.
0:11:08 > 0:11:12Elliott and Sanderson confirmed that shortly after 1:30pm
0:11:12 > 0:11:14they had a brief conversation with Dickman,
0:11:14 > 0:11:16who seemed to them of perfectly normal demeanour.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18Despite this alibi,
0:11:18 > 0:11:22almost two hours had passed since Dickman got off the train,
0:11:22 > 0:11:25much of which was unaccounted for.
0:11:25 > 0:11:26In terms of John's alibi,
0:11:26 > 0:11:30I do recognise it as a weak point in the story.
0:11:30 > 0:11:36I want to believe that he was ill, and that indeed he had to rest up.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40But also, I can understand there's no-one to corroborate that.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43This part of his evidence still has that question mark above it.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50So there's this period where nobody really knows what he's doing...
0:11:50 > 0:11:53Sasha is reviewing evidence that could account for the hole
0:11:53 > 0:11:57in Dickman's alibi, but does it prove Dickman was the killer?
0:11:57 > 0:12:02What the prosecution said at trial is that what Mr Dickman was in fact
0:12:02 > 0:12:05doing was not walking down to Clifton,
0:12:05 > 0:12:11but was walking towards Hepscott, here, where in a disused mineshaft,
0:12:11 > 0:12:15in June - so several months later -
0:12:15 > 0:12:18was found the bag which contained the money
0:12:18 > 0:12:25which was the subject of the robbery of John Nisbet on the train.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29Nisbet's moneybag was found three months after the murder
0:12:29 > 0:12:31at the bottom of a disused mineshaft
0:12:31 > 0:12:35less than a mile and a half from Morpeth. At the time,
0:12:35 > 0:12:37the prosecution used this discovery
0:12:37 > 0:12:41to suggest Dickman was not lying ill in a field,
0:12:41 > 0:12:45but was in fact disposing of the stolen money bag.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48But Jeremy has found a problem with this evidence.
0:12:48 > 0:12:49We need to keep in mind
0:12:49 > 0:12:53that John Dickman was in custody from the 21st of March
0:12:53 > 0:12:57and the 9th of June, when it was found.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59The mine had been searched on the 17th of March,
0:12:59 > 0:13:05the day before the incident, the 29th of April, and the 18th of May.
0:13:05 > 0:13:11And, in fact, the bag wasn't found there until the 9th of June.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14The reality is,
0:13:14 > 0:13:19there's not a shred of evidence that John Dickman dumped that bag.
0:13:19 > 0:13:21A more likely course of events
0:13:21 > 0:13:26is that someone else killed John Nisbet.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30So Jeremy believes the moneybag discovery indicates that the police
0:13:30 > 0:13:33should have been looking for other suspects.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36This is a reconstruction
0:13:36 > 0:13:40of the 10:27 train from Newcastle to Alnmouth.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43The engine was at this end,
0:13:43 > 0:13:45and this entire mapped out area
0:13:45 > 0:13:48is the first carriage.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51The barristers now want to turn their attention to the evidence
0:13:51 > 0:13:55given by the key witnesses that put Dickman in the frame.
0:13:55 > 0:13:59Does their testimony prove that Dickman was the killer?
0:13:59 > 0:14:02The first important thing is at Newcastle
0:14:02 > 0:14:06a witness called Bruce gets onto this first compartment
0:14:06 > 0:14:09nearest the engine, and he's with another man,
0:14:09 > 0:14:13whose identity is not important for the purposes of this case.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17On the second compartment, nearest the engine,
0:14:17 > 0:14:22two other witnesses who gave evidence, Mr Hall and Mr Spink,
0:14:22 > 0:14:24they get on there.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28Now, a witness at Newcastle station,
0:14:28 > 0:14:32called Wilson Hepple, saw John Dickman
0:14:32 > 0:14:34in the company of another man.
0:14:34 > 0:14:40One of the two put his hand on the door of one of the compartments.
0:14:40 > 0:14:44So for the sake of what I'm going to explain to you,
0:14:44 > 0:14:48Mr Dickman gets onto the train with the other man.
0:14:48 > 0:14:53As the train arrives at Heaton station, Nisbet's wife, Cicely,
0:14:53 > 0:14:54was on the platform to greet him.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59He leans out of the window and he waves at her.
0:14:59 > 0:15:05But Cicely also sees another man in that compartment, wearing a coat,
0:15:05 > 0:15:08wearing a hat with the collar pulled up,
0:15:08 > 0:15:11and that man is actually sitting facing the engine,
0:15:11 > 0:15:13so he's facing this way.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16The train pulls off from Heaton,
0:15:16 > 0:15:20and the next station of importance is Stannington.
0:15:20 > 0:15:25Now, at Stannington, Mr Hall
0:15:25 > 0:15:29and Mr Spink get off the train.
0:15:30 > 0:15:34Mr Hall knows Mr Nisbet
0:15:34 > 0:15:37and they acknowledge each other.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39Mr Bruce, in the first compartment,
0:15:39 > 0:15:43witnesses Hall nodding before the train pulls away.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47The train then stops at Morpeth,
0:15:47 > 0:15:50where the next key witness is waiting to board.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54Mr Grant walks past this first carriage
0:15:54 > 0:15:56of third-class compartments,
0:15:56 > 0:16:00and he particularly noticed that there was nobody,
0:16:00 > 0:16:03or he believed that there was nobody in this carriage,
0:16:03 > 0:16:08which suggests that Mr Dickman must have got off the train -
0:16:08 > 0:16:12and, remember, Mr Dickman DID get off the train at Morpeth -
0:16:12 > 0:16:16and that Mr Nisbet was lying on the ground,
0:16:16 > 0:16:19which is why he wasn't visible at window height.
0:16:19 > 0:16:24Crucially, the witness, Grant, the big question in his case is,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27how did John Dickman leave the carriage,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30leaving John Nisbet on the floor behind him,
0:16:30 > 0:16:33if Grant didn't see anyone exit the carriage?
0:16:33 > 0:16:36Because he doesn't claim that he did, so how did John Dickman get out
0:16:36 > 0:16:40of that carriage if his evidence is correct?
0:16:40 > 0:16:43Could the killer have got off the train a different way?
0:16:48 > 0:16:53Rowan has come to Tanfield Heritage Railway, near Newcastle.
0:16:55 > 0:16:59He's hoping that travelling back to his great-grandfather's era..
0:16:59 > 0:17:01WHISTLE TOOTS
0:17:01 > 0:17:06..with historian Alan Thompson can shed some light on the incident.
0:17:07 > 0:17:12So this is exactly the same type of carriage that my grandfather,
0:17:12 > 0:17:15- John Dickman, and John Nisbet... - Yes.- ..would have travelled in?
0:17:15 > 0:17:18Presumably, you'd have to hold your luggage on your lap?
0:17:18 > 0:17:20Your lap or you could put it under the seat.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25But I think wages, he would have his hands on it all the time.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27You wouldn't dare let it go.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29No. John Nisbet was shot five times.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33It makes you wonder whether anybody else would have actually heard it.
0:17:33 > 0:17:36We're close to the engine, so you'd have the noise of the engine,
0:17:36 > 0:17:38the rear joints, bong-bong, bong-bong,
0:17:38 > 0:17:40you're getting that all the time.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43- You've got solid walls.- Yes.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46And you're getting the vibration that can be quite noisy.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55Could the noises of the train, masking the gunshots,
0:17:55 > 0:17:58explain why nobody reported the crime?
0:17:58 > 0:18:01I've noticed the carriages don't have a corridor -
0:18:01 > 0:18:03was that common on these trains?
0:18:03 > 0:18:07Yes, corridors, as such, came in much later,
0:18:07 > 0:18:10probably after the First World War.
0:18:10 > 0:18:14- So you were stuck in here between stations?- Yes.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21The design of the train allowed no way to enter or exit the compartment
0:18:21 > 0:18:25between stations. It was unlikely anyone could have jumped off,
0:18:25 > 0:18:27as they would leave the door flapping open,
0:18:27 > 0:18:30almost certainly alerting the guard.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33So, it remains a mystery
0:18:33 > 0:18:37as to how the killer could have got away unnoticed.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44In London, the barristers are trying to solve another dilemma.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49Did Dickman have a genuine motive for murder?
0:18:49 > 0:18:54Jeremy, this was a murder committed during the course of a robbery.
0:18:54 > 0:18:59And we know that £270, nine shillings and sixpence went missing.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03There's also evidence that John Dickman was short of money
0:19:03 > 0:19:05in the year leading up to this murder.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09At the trial, the prosecution tried to prove that Dickman was in urgent
0:19:09 > 0:19:13need of money, presenting evidence that he had taken out two loans
0:19:13 > 0:19:16for £20, and his bank accounts were empty.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19There was some evidence that John Dickman had money troubles,
0:19:19 > 0:19:23- of a sort.- Yeah, but, Sasha... - Do you agree with that?- Well...
0:19:24 > 0:19:27I'm not sure I'd agree he had many problems.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31He seems to have needed to borrow money on more than one occasion.
0:19:31 > 0:19:36However, the reason why his accounts had little money in
0:19:36 > 0:19:38is because he was a bookie
0:19:38 > 0:19:41and he used cash in connection with that work.
0:19:41 > 0:19:46So just because the prosecution swooped on that
0:19:46 > 0:19:51and labelled those money lending scenarios as motive
0:19:51 > 0:19:56doesn't mean that John Dickman turned his hand to gruesome killing.
0:19:56 > 0:20:00So I'm afraid I just don't see that there was a respectable motive
0:20:00 > 0:20:02put before the jury.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06So Jeremy is not convinced Dickman had a clear motive,
0:20:06 > 0:20:10and has raised doubts about the prosecution's circumstantial case.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14We've now looked at various issues in this case.
0:20:14 > 0:20:19Do you accept that there was no direct evidence against John Dickman
0:20:19 > 0:20:22and that there are, you know,
0:20:22 > 0:20:25a significant number of difficult questions
0:20:25 > 0:20:27for the prosecution to answer?
0:20:27 > 0:20:31I'm still of the view that this was a cogent case of murder
0:20:31 > 0:20:34against John Dickman. However,
0:20:34 > 0:20:38I am concerned about the ammunition in the case.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40Two different sorts of ammunition.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44And I would find it helpful to speak to a ballistics expert.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52The murder weapon was never found, but two different calibre of bullet
0:20:52 > 0:20:54were retrieved from the victim's body.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57So what does this tell us about the crime?
0:20:57 > 0:21:00- Hi, Innes, how are you? - Innes Knight is a gunsmith
0:21:00 > 0:21:03with an expert knowledge of historical firearms.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07The gun we think was used
0:21:07 > 0:21:09was a .32 revolver.
0:21:09 > 0:21:12Our reasons for thinking this is
0:21:12 > 0:21:17there is no physical way that a .32 round
0:21:17 > 0:21:20would be able to be fired from a .25 pistol.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22It is physically impossible.
0:21:22 > 0:21:27It is, however, possible for a .25 bullet, with enough ingenuity,
0:21:27 > 0:21:30to be fired from a .32 revolver.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34Can you actually load that bullet in that gun?
0:21:34 > 0:21:37- You would need a little bit of ingenuity.- Right.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41So this is a fairly typical .32 revolver.
0:21:41 > 0:21:45Now, if I take .25,
0:21:45 > 0:21:47it will drop clean through.
0:21:47 > 0:21:51And so it requires to be adapted before it can be shot from?
0:21:51 > 0:21:53I have done some experiments,
0:21:53 > 0:21:57and by wrapping the bullet in paper or tape,
0:21:57 > 0:22:03or leather, I can make the .32 fire both calibres.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Nisbet was shot five times...
0:22:06 > 0:22:07GUNSHOTS
0:22:07 > 0:22:10..but three of the shots using the .25 bullet
0:22:10 > 0:22:13caused only superficial wounds.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18The fact that that .25 came out at low enough velocity
0:22:18 > 0:22:20not to penetrate the skull
0:22:20 > 0:22:24- means that it was not fired in its correct barrel.- Yeah.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26If I fired that in the large barrel,
0:22:26 > 0:22:29that bullet would come out at a much lower velocity.
0:22:29 > 0:22:35And so one gunman with one gun, firing both calibre of bullets?
0:22:35 > 0:22:37With the evidence I've been presented,
0:22:37 > 0:22:41it is most likely one gun. It was probably by luck that those rounds
0:22:41 > 0:22:45went off, rather than judgment. But it is possible.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48So what might happen is that if someone was to wrap a bullet
0:22:48 > 0:22:51in the way you've said, it's conceivable that, in fact,
0:22:51 > 0:22:56- the bullet wouldn't fire? - Yes, it is.- Pot luck.- Yeah.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00So, the gunsmith favours one gunman.
0:23:00 > 0:23:05A theory that the prosecution successfully pursued in 1910.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12Rowan wants to know what the public made of the evidence,
0:23:12 > 0:23:15reported in its entirety by the local press
0:23:15 > 0:23:17in the lead-up to the trial.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22He's come to Newcastle Library to search the archives.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30I found the actual article at the start of the trial.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33It's actually taking us through the different eyewitnesses.
0:23:33 > 0:23:37What it does say - it was quite a sensational trial.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41The trial of John Dickman opened on the 4th of July 1910,
0:23:41 > 0:23:43at Moot Hall in Newcastle,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46where a vast crowd packed the area outside.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49It was a well publicised trial.
0:23:49 > 0:23:51The public had become largely involved.
0:23:51 > 0:23:53The papers were very much involved.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56A lot of people, their minds may have already been made up.
0:23:56 > 0:23:57Could it have been a fair trial?
0:23:58 > 0:24:00Dickman would face the jury
0:24:00 > 0:24:03in the home town of the man he was accused of killing
0:24:03 > 0:24:06and where public opinion was strongly set against him.
0:24:06 > 0:24:09Looking at this, and seeing that the case was quite biased
0:24:09 > 0:24:13in the news respects, it makes me angry, to say the least.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17I think if I was reading these articles at the time,
0:24:17 > 0:24:19I would probably believe that he was guilty.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25Jeremy has his own concerns about the case
0:24:25 > 0:24:28so, he's asked Home Office Pathologist Stuart Hamilton
0:24:28 > 0:24:30to look at the crime scene evidence.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34Stuart, you're going to take us through the various scenarios
0:24:34 > 0:24:37as to how John Nisbet might have been killed.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39Tell us about the scenes here.
0:24:39 > 0:24:44So, what we have here is a perfect reproduction of the carriage
0:24:44 > 0:24:45that Mr Nisbet was sat in.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52The evidence is that he was shot five times.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55We have two different types of bullet.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58I can only conclude, if it is one shooter,
0:24:58 > 0:25:01that there is a shot with the lead,
0:25:01 > 0:25:04that comes across the face,
0:25:04 > 0:25:06and stuns Mr Nisbet.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08He then goes to the ground,
0:25:08 > 0:25:12there are then more discharges to the back of the head,
0:25:12 > 0:25:16and there is the lethal shot to the brainstem.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19The evidence that was given in the trial
0:25:19 > 0:25:23was that the bullet wound to this forehead
0:25:23 > 0:25:26was fired while Mr Nisbet was prostrate.
0:25:26 > 0:25:30You can see, from the dimensions of this carriage,
0:25:30 > 0:25:34to actually get into a position, somehow,
0:25:34 > 0:25:38where that could be fired seems incredibly difficult
0:25:38 > 0:25:40and somewhat unlikely to me.
0:25:40 > 0:25:44There just isn't room here to do it.
0:25:44 > 0:25:48The second scenario is that we have two assailants.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50Two men, two guns.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55One man gets up, first shot is discharged into his head.
0:25:55 > 0:25:57He then goes to the ground.
0:25:58 > 0:26:03The man with the nickel-plated bullets fires twice,
0:26:03 > 0:26:06the other assailant shoots twice.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09One of those shots hits his brainstem.
0:26:09 > 0:26:13Mr Nisbet is doing nothing, ever again.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16In the end, which of those scenarios do you believe
0:26:16 > 0:26:21is the most likely context in which John Nisbet was killed?
0:26:21 > 0:26:24I think two people in control of a firearm
0:26:24 > 0:26:28makes far more sense than one person with two.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31And I think the likelihood of it being one weapon
0:26:31 > 0:26:35- seems considerably less likely. - GUNSHOTS
0:26:35 > 0:26:38So, the pathology evidence points to two gunmen,
0:26:38 > 0:26:41contradicting the opinion of the gunsmith.
0:26:42 > 0:26:46We're still left with different ammunition in one gun,
0:26:46 > 0:26:48or the two-gunmen theory.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51And given what the ballistics expert has said,
0:26:51 > 0:26:54I'm in favour of one gun, one gunman.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58Stuart Hamilton favours two gunmen.
0:26:58 > 0:27:02If correct, then, there is a fundamental question mark
0:27:02 > 0:27:05over whether John Dickman was rightly convicted.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11Rowan has spent hours searching the archive for newspaper articles
0:27:11 > 0:27:14about the case.
0:27:14 > 0:27:17Much to his surprise, he's found a collection of personal accounts
0:27:17 > 0:27:20written by John Dickman's wife, Annie.
0:27:21 > 0:27:26It's the first time I've seen an article from my great-grandmother.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29Funnily enough, it sent shivers up my spine
0:27:29 > 0:27:33when I actually saw her signature at the bottom of the page.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37Annie defended her husband right up until his execution,
0:27:37 > 0:27:40allowing a number of personal letters written by Dickman
0:27:40 > 0:27:42from his cell to be published.
0:27:43 > 0:27:46And this one makes me a little bit angry -
0:27:46 > 0:27:47"Dickman's last letters,
0:27:47 > 0:27:50"pathetic references to his wife and children."
0:27:52 > 0:27:56I'm angry because the letters are far from pathetic.
0:27:56 > 0:28:01When you read them it's about a man coming to terms with his death,
0:28:01 > 0:28:03and what will become of his family.
0:28:05 > 0:28:07"The last letter from a condemned man to his wife
0:28:07 > 0:28:10"was received by Mrs Dickman on Monday.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12"In it, her husband wrote...
0:28:13 > 0:28:15" 'There is something still keeps telling me
0:28:15 > 0:28:18" 'that everything will be made clear some day,
0:28:18 > 0:28:21" 'when it is too late to benefit me.
0:28:21 > 0:28:23" 'I can only repeat that I am innocent.' "
0:28:25 > 0:28:28There is a man here that seemed to have loved his family
0:28:28 > 0:28:30and right to his last letter, he's saying,
0:28:30 > 0:28:34maybe one day his innocence will be found.
0:28:36 > 0:28:40When I see that, I do hope that at the end of it...
0:28:42 > 0:28:45..there will be enough answers for us to be able to say
0:28:45 > 0:28:48he was innocent.
0:28:53 > 0:28:57Maybe that day's close at hand, I would hope. Yeah.
0:28:57 > 0:28:59HE TAKES A DEEP BREATH
0:29:09 > 0:29:11Despite being handed a death sentence,
0:29:11 > 0:29:15Dickman still had one last hope of proving he was wrongly convicted.
0:29:16 > 0:29:18On the 22nd of July, 1910,
0:29:18 > 0:29:22his case was to be heard by the Court of Appeal.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24Earlier that month, the Home Office
0:29:24 > 0:29:28had received disturbing news of serious police malpractice,
0:29:28 > 0:29:32relating to an identity parade involving two key witnesses,
0:29:32 > 0:29:34Spink and Hall.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37Hall, when taken to the police station for the purposes
0:29:37 > 0:29:40of seeing if he could identify Dickman,
0:29:40 > 0:29:43"was first invited by somebody,
0:29:43 > 0:29:48"possibly on behalf of the police, to look through a window,
0:29:48 > 0:29:50"and on doing so, sitting alone,
0:29:50 > 0:29:52"the person
0:29:52 > 0:29:56"who was afterwards convicted was there."
0:29:56 > 0:29:59I personally find it staggering
0:29:59 > 0:30:03that John Dickman was convicted, in part,
0:30:03 > 0:30:07on the identification evidence of somebody
0:30:07 > 0:30:10who had been asked to have a look at him sitting on a chair,
0:30:10 > 0:30:12in isolation, before the parade.
0:30:12 > 0:30:16That evidence, in modern times, would never have gone before a jury.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19Jeremy is still hoping to find a new legal angle
0:30:19 > 0:30:22on which to argue that the conviction was unsafe.
0:30:23 > 0:30:26How did it come about, that Hall
0:30:26 > 0:30:29was shown John Dickman sitting on a...
0:30:29 > 0:30:32No, let me finish, you dismiss this type of...
0:30:32 > 0:30:35- No, I don't!- Hang on, let me finish. You dismiss this kind of conduct,
0:30:35 > 0:30:38as if this is a matter of pure irrelevance,
0:30:38 > 0:30:42but if, in fact, the police were prepared
0:30:42 > 0:30:45to put John Dickman on display,
0:30:45 > 0:30:48how do we know that there weren't more shenanigans going on?
0:30:48 > 0:30:50Why do we assume that the only piece of misconduct
0:30:50 > 0:30:52was the one that was discovered?
0:30:52 > 0:30:54We don't know what went on.
0:30:54 > 0:30:56This is 1910,
0:30:56 > 0:31:00and I am not as comfortable with mere assertion by these witnesses
0:31:00 > 0:31:03- as you appear to be.- Can I just clarify the matter, Jeremy?
0:31:03 > 0:31:05I'm not comfortable with what happened
0:31:05 > 0:31:08in terms of the identification procedure.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11It was completely improper conduct.
0:31:11 > 0:31:15It doesn't alter the conclusion of the Lord Chief Justice
0:31:15 > 0:31:18that he would not have hesitated
0:31:18 > 0:31:22to quash this conviction had Hall been the only witness.
0:31:22 > 0:31:26We both agree that he's a tainted witness.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28The Lord Chief Justice has made it plain
0:31:28 > 0:31:31that there was a wealth of other evidence putting John Dickman...
0:31:31 > 0:31:34- What...- ..and John Nisbet... - We could go on forever.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37- ..in the same train compartment. - We could go on forever, Sasha,
0:31:37 > 0:31:40but we can't get beyond what's here in black and white before us,
0:31:40 > 0:31:42- that's the problem... - That is the problem.
0:31:42 > 0:31:46And I see it, and I read it rather more sceptically than you do.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49That's not a criticism of you, I just do.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56With time running out on the barristers' investigation,
0:31:56 > 0:32:00Rowan has gone to Newcastle Cathedral for a momentous meeting.
0:32:01 > 0:32:0380 years ago, John Dickman's
0:32:03 > 0:32:05son Henry, Rowan's grandfather,
0:32:05 > 0:32:07abandoned his wife and son
0:32:07 > 0:32:10to start a new family across town.
0:32:10 > 0:32:11They are my relatives,
0:32:11 > 0:32:13they're my blood relatives.
0:32:13 > 0:32:17And I think I would be remiss in not trying to contact them.
0:32:17 > 0:32:21Waiting to greet Rowan is his half-uncle John and cousin Beezy,
0:32:21 > 0:32:24relatives from a side of the family he's never met.
0:32:24 > 0:32:26I'm feeling very nervous, actually.
0:32:26 > 0:32:30I think it's probably more nervous than anything else I've done.
0:32:30 > 0:32:32- Hello!- John?
0:32:32 > 0:32:36- How are you, fella? - Pleased to meet you.- And you.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39- Lovely to meet you. - This is Beezy.- Hello.
0:32:39 > 0:32:41Rowan, yeah. A bit nervous...
0:32:41 > 0:32:44- So am I.- ..and a bit emotional. - So am I. Don't worry about it.
0:32:44 > 0:32:46I wish my mum could be here and my Auntie Pat.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49- Yeah, yeah. - I know I've been very remiss.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51I kind of tucked it on the back burner...
0:32:51 > 0:32:56- Me, too.- ..and Dad was always so, sort of angry and unhappy.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59- Yeah, he would write to me. - He would never talk about it.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02- Shall we sit down, guys?- Please...
0:33:02 > 0:33:05They have 100 years of broken family history to discuss,
0:33:05 > 0:33:09starting with the marriage of John Dickman to Annie,
0:33:09 > 0:33:11right here in Newcastle Cathedral.
0:33:11 > 0:33:13Here we are in that same building
0:33:13 > 0:33:16where they began their marriage and their life.
0:33:16 > 0:33:19Hopefully, come round full circle.
0:33:19 > 0:33:21- Yes.- Full circle, which is, actually, yeah...
0:33:21 > 0:33:24That, finally, the family can get back together.
0:33:24 > 0:33:27Yes, yes, hopefully.
0:33:27 > 0:33:29Whilst the Dickman family become acquainted,
0:33:29 > 0:33:32Jeremy is still searching for the new evidence he needs
0:33:32 > 0:33:36to argue before the judge that the case should be reviewed.
0:33:38 > 0:33:42He's hoping crime writer John Eddleston can help.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46So, John, tell us about how you developed an interest
0:33:46 > 0:33:48in the case of John Dickman,
0:33:48 > 0:33:51and how you've really become an expert on the case.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54Well, my wife and I researched every single execution
0:33:54 > 0:33:58in the 20th century. This case, in particular, was very contentious
0:33:58 > 0:34:01and having spent three or four years looking at it,
0:34:01 > 0:34:04I've come up with a completely different scenario,
0:34:04 > 0:34:06which means that John Alexander Dickman
0:34:06 > 0:34:10- was almost certainly innocent of the crime.- Right.
0:34:12 > 0:34:16We know the train left at 10.27 from Newcastle Central.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19Now, we do know that Nesbit travelled in that compartment.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22That's absolutely certain, cos that's where his body was found.
0:34:22 > 0:34:24We know, from the evidence of his wife,
0:34:24 > 0:34:27there was a companion sitting directly opposite to him.
0:34:31 > 0:34:34The only other person we're certain of is Andrew Bruce,
0:34:34 > 0:34:37and Bruce is sitting right in this corner.
0:34:37 > 0:34:40Hall was in that particular carriage.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44We know that, at Newcastle, on his own evidence,
0:34:44 > 0:34:46Hall was looking out of the window
0:34:46 > 0:34:48at the platform to see who was coming down.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51He was also looking out of the window at Heaton.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54A curious thing to do for someone who'd made the same journey
0:34:54 > 0:34:58many times over the years, with Spink.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01We are led to believe that in the same carriage, is Spink.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04- but for the time being, can we leave him out?- Yeah.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07My scenario is this.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10Hall was indeed looking out of the window,
0:35:10 > 0:35:12but not to see who was coming,
0:35:12 > 0:35:16to make sure that no-one else came into that compartment.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18The unknown companion with Nesbit,
0:35:18 > 0:35:22is not an unknown companion, it's John Williams Spink.
0:35:22 > 0:35:24In this scenario,
0:35:24 > 0:35:28the mystery man witnessed in the compartment with Nesbit
0:35:28 > 0:35:30was not Dickman, it was Spink.
0:35:30 > 0:35:34One of the key witnesses and the companion of Hall.
0:35:34 > 0:35:39Waiting inconspicuously for his partner in crime to join him.
0:35:39 > 0:35:43When they reached the station before Stannington, which is Plessey,
0:35:43 > 0:35:46Hall gets out, and gets into this carriage.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48There are now three people in that carriage.
0:35:48 > 0:35:50He was about to shake hands with Hall,
0:35:50 > 0:35:53when Hall and Spink both opened fire.
0:35:53 > 0:35:55This is now an empty carriage.
0:35:55 > 0:35:58When the train arrives at Stannington,
0:35:58 > 0:36:00they both get out through the door,
0:36:00 > 0:36:02and stand about here,
0:36:02 > 0:36:04between the two carriages.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07So, Nesbit's dead before we get to Stannington?
0:36:07 > 0:36:10Nesbitt's dead between Plessey and Stannington.
0:36:10 > 0:36:13The body's under the seat, Hall and Spink are on the platform,
0:36:13 > 0:36:14the train pulls out,
0:36:14 > 0:36:17and Bruce sees them nod to an empty carriage.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19- To a dead man.- To a dead man.
0:36:19 > 0:36:21When the train arrives at Morpeth,
0:36:21 > 0:36:25John Grant is waiting here where the engine is.
0:36:25 > 0:36:28He wants to find a smoking compartment.
0:36:28 > 0:36:32As he walks along, he sees that compartment is occupied.
0:36:32 > 0:36:35He walks past, that's a non-smoker, that's no use to him.
0:36:35 > 0:36:39And when he walks past the carriage were Nesbit's body is now lying,
0:36:39 > 0:36:42he sees and swears that it is empty.
0:36:42 > 0:36:44If Dickman is the killer,
0:36:44 > 0:36:47he would've seen Dickman get off the train at Morpeth.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50Dickman did indeed get off the train at Morpeth,
0:36:50 > 0:36:54he paid an excess fare, but he got out from way back down there.
0:36:54 > 0:36:55If that case is true,
0:36:55 > 0:36:58Hall and Spink are the killers.
0:37:02 > 0:37:05Could this be the breakthrough that Jeremy needs?
0:37:05 > 0:37:08Is it enough to convince a judge that John Dickman
0:37:08 > 0:37:10was innocent all along?
0:37:12 > 0:37:15It seems to me that his hypothesis works.
0:37:15 > 0:37:19The most obvious scenario here is two gunmen.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21The case against Hall and Spinks
0:37:21 > 0:37:24is equally strong as it was against John Dickman.
0:37:24 > 0:37:28The difference between them is that John Dickman was hanged
0:37:28 > 0:37:30and Hall and Spinks weren't.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33The hypothesis put forward by John Eddleston
0:37:33 > 0:37:36was fascinating and ingenious.
0:37:36 > 0:37:40But it really was based on two premises.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43Firstly, that the witness, Grant, who was at Morpeth,
0:37:43 > 0:37:49categorically did not see anyone getting off the carriage at Morpeth.
0:37:49 > 0:37:53I'm not sure that is Mr Grant's evidence.
0:37:53 > 0:37:57Rather, he didn't see someone, didn't particularly notice someone.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59And the second premise is that
0:37:59 > 0:38:03there were necessarily two guns involved in this murder.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05And again, I'm not sure that is the evidence
0:38:05 > 0:38:09from the firearms expert in this case.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12I'm afraid his contribution
0:38:12 > 0:38:14has not caused me to believe
0:38:14 > 0:38:17that this was a miscarriage of justice.
0:38:20 > 0:38:24For decades, the Dickmans have coped with secrets and hurt
0:38:24 > 0:38:27as a result of their family history.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30Finally, two factions of the family have come together
0:38:30 > 0:38:33to share their past
0:38:33 > 0:38:36and Rowan and John have unfinished business in Newcastle.
0:38:36 > 0:38:40- So we're here. - Maybe if we cut just up here,
0:38:40 > 0:38:42that will take us up to the corner.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45- Yeah?- That would do, yes, yes. Try that, shall we?- Yeah, sure.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47They've come to Jesmond Cemetery
0:38:47 > 0:38:50to search for John Dickman's unmarked grave.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55- There's an open patch just here. - Yes, that's right.
0:38:55 > 0:38:57Maybe if he's looking on,
0:38:57 > 0:38:59maybe we can just say to him, "Well, we tried."
0:38:59 > 0:39:02This is the best we can do for you.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04- And not forgotten.- Not forgotten.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06Hopefully, in time, we can clear his name.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09It's those last few words, isn't it? Perhaps one day...
0:39:09 > 0:39:11The truth will come out.
0:39:11 > 0:39:13Well, maybe we will do that.
0:39:13 > 0:39:17Well, hopefully, we will and I'm glad that we actually met up.
0:39:17 > 0:39:20- I know that I've got an extended family.- It's great, isn't it?- Yeah.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23And in one sense, that's brought us together, hasn't it?
0:39:23 > 0:39:25- Yeah, it has, really, yeah.- Yeah.
0:39:25 > 0:39:27Hey, John.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29- And you, mate.- Come here.- Yeah.
0:39:31 > 0:39:33Well, hopefully he's looking on.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36Yeah, I hope he is. I really do.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48Judgment day has finally arrived for Rowan.
0:39:48 > 0:39:51He's returned to London and will soon find out if the barristers
0:39:51 > 0:39:53have uncovered the evidence they need.
0:39:53 > 0:39:56I really am hopeful that some of the evidence there is strong enough
0:39:56 > 0:40:00to convince the judge that we can relook at this case,
0:40:00 > 0:40:02because I truly believe that should happen.
0:40:02 > 0:40:06Jeremy and Sasha have spent days scrutinising the facts,
0:40:06 > 0:40:09and considering their legal arguments.
0:40:09 > 0:40:11Hello, Sasha, lovely to see you.
0:40:11 > 0:40:12- Hi, Rowan.- Nice to see you again.
0:40:12 > 0:40:14- How are you?- I'm fine, thank you.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17- Looking forward to today, yeah. - Right.- A little bit nervous.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20- Do you want to say anything at this stage?- No, I think, the best thing
0:40:20 > 0:40:23is if we update you when we're all sitting round
0:40:23 > 0:40:25with our papers open on the table in front of us.
0:40:25 > 0:40:27So, shall we go on through?
0:40:27 > 0:40:29- I am looking forward to it. - All right. OK.- Thank you.
0:40:30 > 0:40:34For Rowan, this could be the start of the legal process
0:40:34 > 0:40:36to exonerate his great-grandfather.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38Or it could be the end of any hope
0:40:38 > 0:40:41that the conviction can be overturned.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46- Come and sit down.- Thank you.
0:40:46 > 0:40:51What I want to do now is really update you on what's been happening.
0:40:51 > 0:40:54Rowan, you can see that there isn't a judge here.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56a judge won't be coming to this room today
0:40:56 > 0:40:59and what I'm going to do is explain why not.
0:40:59 > 0:41:05We have explored as many as the features of this case as we can,
0:41:05 > 0:41:07but it seems to me
0:41:07 > 0:41:10that there is no real basis
0:41:10 > 0:41:14for saying that this was a miscarriage of justice.
0:41:14 > 0:41:19So, I am sorry to be the bearer of such bad news.
0:41:19 > 0:41:25The burden lay with me to identify new material.
0:41:25 > 0:41:30I have significant concerns about the safety of this conviction,
0:41:30 > 0:41:34but try though we have,
0:41:34 > 0:41:36no new material has emerged
0:41:36 > 0:41:39sufficient to argue before a judge
0:41:39 > 0:41:41that the conviction is unsafe,
0:41:41 > 0:41:45which means that we simply cannot progress the case before a judge.
0:41:46 > 0:41:47I'm desperately sorry
0:41:47 > 0:41:50that we haven't been able to take it forward.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54I think there are issues, without a doubt, that I think make it unsafe.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58I do think there are issues about the testimonies that were given,
0:41:58 > 0:42:01I am concerned that the identification parade
0:42:01 > 0:42:04wasn't as as professionally carried out as possible...
0:42:04 > 0:42:08- Absolutely.- Yeah, absolutely. - I have, for the last 50 years,
0:42:08 > 0:42:12accepted that my great-grandfather may well have been guilty to a point
0:42:12 > 0:42:14where I have very strong doubts now.
0:42:14 > 0:42:20But I appreciate that doubts isn't enough to take any form of appeal.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23But, yeah, a bit more emotional than I thought I would be.
0:42:23 > 0:42:27We just want to wish you the very best of luck
0:42:27 > 0:42:30in taking this forward in the future,
0:42:30 > 0:42:33which having met you, we are confident you will.
0:42:33 > 0:42:36Oh, certainly. And, I must say, we will.
0:42:36 > 0:42:39I'm pretty sure I can speak for the family.
0:42:41 > 0:42:45I feel very disappointed and far more emotional than I thought
0:42:45 > 0:42:47- I ever would do.- All right.
0:42:47 > 0:42:50However, through my journey,
0:42:50 > 0:42:51I've gained a family
0:42:51 > 0:42:55and I'm getting to know them.
0:42:55 > 0:42:59And we are of one mind that we're going to follow this further.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03Apart from the disappointment, I've gained so much from this.