The Trouble with Aid

0:00:02 > 0:00:04What you are witnessing is the actual series of events that

0:00:04 > 0:00:07takes place when generous, compassionate people convert

0:00:07 > 0:00:10their dollars into vital goods and services to help people in need.

0:00:10 > 0:00:15This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find upsetting

0:00:15 > 0:00:1745 years ago, a group of young men

0:00:17 > 0:00:20and women set out to make the world a better place.

0:00:21 > 0:00:26Their cause would become known as humanitarianism.

0:00:26 > 0:00:30The idea that it is our duty to help those in desperate need,

0:00:30 > 0:00:32wherever they are.

0:00:32 > 0:00:37NEWS: 'The survivors weep and the world weeps with them.'

0:00:37 > 0:00:42It's such a powerful expression of what it is to be human, right?

0:00:42 > 0:00:44And you want to be part of that.

0:00:46 > 0:00:50It would grow to become one of the core beliefs of the modern age

0:00:50 > 0:00:52and save millions of lives.

0:00:59 > 0:01:03But trying to do good in the world's worst conflict zones

0:01:03 > 0:01:05is filled with danger.

0:01:07 > 0:01:10You have to get your hands very dirty,

0:01:10 > 0:01:13talking to some of the most heinous people.

0:01:14 > 0:01:16Despite the best intentions,

0:01:16 > 0:01:20emergency aid may have unintended and terrible consequences.

0:01:21 > 0:01:25Some of those who were there believe it can even do more harm than good.

0:01:25 > 0:01:28We still haven't quite come to terms with the fact that aid

0:01:28 > 0:01:30is manipulated.

0:01:30 > 0:01:33You know, I feel an element of shame about my understanding.

0:01:33 > 0:01:35I think I just didn't know enough.

0:01:35 > 0:01:38This is the story of where aid went wrong...

0:01:40 > 0:01:43- So being there, you're funding the war?- Yes.

0:01:43 > 0:01:47..of what happens when good people try to help in a bad world.

0:01:49 > 0:01:52Well, people do say, "What do you want to do? Let them die?"

0:01:52 > 0:01:55And here's the question - "Are we keeping them alive?"

0:02:19 > 0:02:24The modern aid movement was born in 1967 in the forests of West Africa.

0:02:29 > 0:02:33A civil war in the Nigerian province of Biafra inspired a generation

0:02:33 > 0:02:38of young, idealistic doctors to go to Nigeria to help save lives.

0:02:50 > 0:02:55I was looking for a locum, rang the BMA who had a locum service,

0:02:55 > 0:02:59and the end of a list of GP jobs and things, they said,

0:02:59 > 0:03:03"Oh, we've got this job - three months in Nigeria."

0:03:03 > 0:03:07And I'd been brought up in West Africa when I was very small,

0:03:07 > 0:03:09and I thought, "Right."

0:03:10 > 0:03:13I would like you to put a little more into it.

0:03:13 > 0:03:15Let me hear the shouts of exultation.

0:03:18 > 0:03:21I mean, going into medicine is itself a sort of

0:03:21 > 0:03:23humanitarian decision, if you like,

0:03:23 > 0:03:28and I'd always been interested, possibly, in being a missionary

0:03:28 > 0:03:29at that stage in my life.

0:03:31 > 0:03:36So when the Biafran disaster came along, I actually volunteered to go.

0:03:44 > 0:03:48Well, I was a doctor, a young doctor,

0:03:48 > 0:03:52but I was also an old activist,

0:03:52 > 0:03:57and this mixture of activism and medicine

0:03:57 > 0:03:59is very important to understand

0:03:59 > 0:04:02because for me and some of us,

0:04:02 > 0:04:06the rest of the world existed,

0:04:06 > 0:04:12Africa existed, and the poor people existed strongly.

0:04:12 > 0:04:16TRIBAL AFRICAN MUSIC

0:04:20 > 0:04:24The very first impression when landing there was of the blast

0:04:24 > 0:04:28of heat that came into the aeroplane as they opened the door,

0:04:28 > 0:04:33and the second thing was actually looking round and seeing that there

0:04:33 > 0:04:37were more black people, you know, there were so many black people.

0:04:37 > 0:04:40I'd not been in the circumstance

0:04:40 > 0:04:44where there was this particular mix and it was quite striking.

0:04:44 > 0:04:47Well, not threatening in any way,

0:04:47 > 0:04:49but just very exotic for me.

0:04:56 > 0:04:58The war pitted separatist Biafran rebels

0:04:58 > 0:05:01against the Nigerian federal army.

0:05:04 > 0:05:07NEWS: 'Biafra, which calls itself "The Land of the Rising Sun",

0:05:07 > 0:05:10'is fighting for the right to be a separate state,

0:05:10 > 0:05:12'and the Federal Nigerians

0:05:12 > 0:05:15'are fighting to keep Nigeria one country.

0:05:15 > 0:05:18'It's a bloody and a costly war, with bitter feelings on both sides.'

0:05:18 > 0:05:22In the early days of the conflict the aid workers, working mostly for

0:05:22 > 0:05:27the International Red Cross, helped the wounded from the civil war.

0:05:27 > 0:05:30One had very, very little experience of most of the things we were

0:05:30 > 0:05:37called upon to treat, running clinics which were simply immense.

0:05:37 > 0:05:40It was a shock, a big shock, because we were young doctors,

0:05:40 > 0:05:44proud to be well educated, good doctors,

0:05:44 > 0:05:48coming from a rich country with a medical tradition,

0:05:48 > 0:05:54and we realised that all our knowledge was absolutely useless.

0:06:00 > 0:06:04The Biafran rebels proved no match for the greater numbers

0:06:04 > 0:06:07and firepower of the Nigerian federal army...

0:06:10 > 0:06:13..which was backed by Britain, the former colonial power.

0:06:16 > 0:06:18Within ten months of fighting,

0:06:18 > 0:06:21Biafra was reduced to a tiny enclave.

0:06:25 > 0:06:26Seeking a quick victory,

0:06:26 > 0:06:30the Nigerians imposed a blockade on the breakaway province.

0:06:36 > 0:06:38Aid workers faced a new killer...

0:06:40 > 0:06:42..famine.

0:06:46 > 0:06:49I think the most shocking thing I have ever seen is

0:06:49 > 0:06:52a place that is actually starving, you know, with a very large

0:06:52 > 0:06:59proportion of a population are dying for want of food.

0:06:59 > 0:07:01That is a genuinely shocking experience,

0:07:01 > 0:07:03and it doesn't fade with time.

0:07:05 > 0:07:09They were coming with big bellies,

0:07:09 > 0:07:13with very thin legs, etcetera,

0:07:13 > 0:07:17and so they were just dying in our hands.

0:07:17 > 0:07:22And the black children

0:07:22 > 0:07:26of two, three, four, five years,

0:07:26 > 0:07:32were so light that you had the feeling that you can drop them

0:07:32 > 0:07:34like matches, you know.

0:07:37 > 0:07:40The Biafrans run a propaganda unit whose aim was to attract

0:07:40 > 0:07:43international support for their cause.

0:07:45 > 0:07:49Up till now the world had ignored them.

0:07:49 > 0:07:52The famine would change everything.

0:07:53 > 0:08:00We tried to sell the fact that Nigeria wanted to destroy

0:08:00 > 0:08:02Biafra in order, first and foremost,

0:08:02 > 0:08:06to capture the wealth that was in that region, which was oil.

0:08:08 > 0:08:12We tried to sell the fact that there was pogrom against the Easterners.

0:08:15 > 0:08:18And the world did not react to it.

0:08:18 > 0:08:24We then tried to sell the fact that this was a religious massacre.

0:08:26 > 0:08:28Again the world didn't bite.

0:08:28 > 0:08:32The civil war was on the verge of being lost

0:08:32 > 0:08:34because Biafra had nothing.

0:08:37 > 0:08:40But then kwashiorkor.

0:08:42 > 0:08:48It was when that broke in the West that the world began to listen.

0:08:52 > 0:08:56Images of children with kwashiorkor, an acute form of malnutrition,

0:08:56 > 0:09:00now began reaching Western publics.

0:09:00 > 0:09:03What drew people was this image.

0:09:05 > 0:09:07I was born in 1961, so what was I?

0:09:07 > 0:09:10Seven or eight years old. I was in first or second grade.

0:09:10 > 0:09:12I remember those pictures to this day, extremely vividly -

0:09:12 > 0:09:15the fundraising appeals, the little UNICEF boxes,

0:09:15 > 0:09:18you'd get to go trick or treating at Halloween, you know.

0:09:18 > 0:09:19"Give a quarter, give a dollar,

0:09:19 > 0:09:22"give whatever you can for Biafra, the starving children of Biafra."

0:09:22 > 0:09:25"Finish your meal because, you know,

0:09:25 > 0:09:27"there are kids starving in Biafra."

0:09:27 > 0:09:30That was absolutely out there.

0:09:30 > 0:09:33BLUE PETER THEME TUNE: "Barnacle Bill"

0:09:33 > 0:09:35I remember as a very small little boy, sitting on the sofa

0:09:35 > 0:09:41and eating my tea watching a black and white telly with Blue Peter,

0:09:41 > 0:09:42the children's show.

0:09:42 > 0:09:45Hello. Well, we've actually made it.

0:09:45 > 0:09:49Thanks to your tremendous response, we've got our 124,000th parcel,

0:09:49 > 0:09:52which we needed, and we've got it before the New Year.

0:09:52 > 0:09:54Which means that we've got enough parcels,

0:09:54 > 0:09:57not only to pay for the truck, but also to equip it out inside,

0:09:57 > 0:10:00and we've also got plenty of parcels to send the truck to West Africa.

0:10:00 > 0:10:02I'll show you what's inside, if you can hang on to the dog.

0:10:02 > 0:10:06And suddenly, seeing these very striking, actually very frightening,

0:10:06 > 0:10:11disturbing images of lots and lots of people starving.

0:10:11 > 0:10:14It just shows what can be achieved when everybody works together

0:10:14 > 0:10:17and, thanks to all of you, these children are going to get

0:10:17 > 0:10:19the medical care that they need to save their lives.

0:10:19 > 0:10:22It's suddenly, in almost real-time,

0:10:22 > 0:10:25beaming into our dinner tables, our living rooms,

0:10:25 > 0:10:29with a ready-made, "Here's what you can do about it",

0:10:29 > 0:10:31because the "here's what you can do about it"

0:10:31 > 0:10:33is what the humanitarians offered.

0:10:33 > 0:10:37MUSIC: "For What It's Worth" by Buffalo Springfield

0:10:39 > 0:10:43Biafra was the first time in which a humanitarian crisis became

0:10:43 > 0:10:47an international cause celebre, which was unprecedented,

0:10:47 > 0:10:49no-one had ever quite anticipated.

0:10:49 > 0:10:5114 lorries from Britain for Red Cross work

0:10:51 > 0:10:55among the destitute refugees from the civil war in Nigeria.

0:10:55 > 0:10:59Dying, it's estimated, at a rate of 20 out of every

0:10:59 > 0:11:021,000 every day, all day.

0:11:02 > 0:11:04Over the next three to four months, between one-and-a-half

0:11:04 > 0:11:06and two million will starve to death.

0:11:06 > 0:11:08# Stop, what's that sound?

0:11:08 > 0:11:12# Everybody look what's going down. #

0:11:12 > 0:11:15A young radical generation accused the British government,

0:11:15 > 0:11:20with its support and arming of the Nigerians, of assisting mass murder.

0:11:20 > 0:11:21One Nigeria is dead!

0:11:24 > 0:11:26NEWS: 'The army runs Nigeria,

0:11:26 > 0:11:28'and they were out in force for the arrival

0:11:28 > 0:11:29'of the British Prime Minister.

0:11:29 > 0:11:34'At last, the arrival of Mr Wilson in his RAF Transport Command VC10

0:11:34 > 0:11:38'for the talks that everyone hopes might lead to peace in Nigeria.'

0:11:39 > 0:11:43My purpose is to do everything that we can together to help

0:11:43 > 0:11:47mitigate the sufferings of your country, of its peoples

0:11:47 > 0:11:49and, not least, of its children.

0:11:51 > 0:11:55With most governments deemed to be on the side of the Nigerians,

0:11:55 > 0:11:58aid agencies now swung into action to save Biafra.

0:12:01 > 0:12:04The Red Cross, and smaller agencies

0:12:04 > 0:12:07under the umbrella of The Joint Council of Churches,

0:12:07 > 0:12:11intensified their airlift to break the Nigerian government blockade.

0:12:13 > 0:12:16The world had a new hero, the aid worker.

0:12:16 > 0:12:18# Stop, what's that sound?

0:12:18 > 0:12:21# Everybody look what's going down. #

0:12:24 > 0:12:28Frankly, I don't think you can subtract out style.

0:12:28 > 0:12:31This was a moment when it happened to click.

0:12:31 > 0:12:33You had Mick Jagger's girlfriend sitting on the sidewalk

0:12:33 > 0:12:36in a big fur coat, raising money for Biafran starving children.

0:12:36 > 0:12:39You had guys with kind of great, you know,

0:12:39 > 0:12:42long hair and rugged beards flying in, almost looking Easy Rider,

0:12:42 > 0:12:47flying planes at night into Biafra as rescue people.

0:12:47 > 0:12:51It clicked with a certain moment, where a mixture of existentialism,

0:12:51 > 0:12:55anti-establishmentism, a sort of looking for a way to go,

0:12:55 > 0:12:58do something positive, but without signing on with power.

0:12:58 > 0:13:00# Stop, what's that sound?

0:13:00 > 0:13:02# Everybody look what's going...

0:13:02 > 0:13:05# Stop, what's that sound? #

0:13:05 > 0:13:09Frankly, what I sometimes think is that humanitarianism offered a way

0:13:09 > 0:13:13to seek glory on the battlefield, without having to kill anybody.

0:13:14 > 0:13:17NEWS: 'The Red Cross sign always brings hope.

0:13:17 > 0:13:21'Hope of relief of suffering, hope of humanity to man.'

0:13:21 > 0:13:25Throughout the conflict, the Red Cross refused to take sides, arguing

0:13:25 > 0:13:30it was the only way of ensuring access to all the warring parties.

0:13:32 > 0:13:34But the new generation of humanitarians challenged

0:13:34 > 0:13:35the idea of neutrality.

0:13:37 > 0:13:41Although a Red Cross doctor, Bernard Kouchner broke with

0:13:41 > 0:13:45the organisation when he went public to condemn the Nigerians.

0:13:45 > 0:13:49- REPORTER:- Were the sympathies with the Biafran cause?

0:13:49 > 0:13:53More or less, I was, yes, inclined to sympathise,

0:13:53 > 0:13:56because they were resisting to the killing at the beginning.

0:13:56 > 0:14:00I will never, in my life...

0:14:03 > 0:14:09..be on, let's say, the killer's side.

0:14:09 > 0:14:11It's impossible. It's impossible.

0:14:17 > 0:14:22In Biafra, it was about the absolute evil on one side

0:14:22 > 0:14:26and the absolute victims on the other.

0:14:27 > 0:14:29The goodies were the Biafran,

0:14:29 > 0:14:32the baddies were the Nigerian Federal Army,

0:14:32 > 0:14:36and this could take place because it was a team of genocide.

0:14:36 > 0:14:41Those people were supposedly caught in a process of extermination,

0:14:41 > 0:14:46and something had to be done in order to save them.

0:14:50 > 0:14:54It was the conviction that the Nigerians were guilty of genocide

0:14:54 > 0:14:57that led most aid agencies to the Biafran cause.

0:15:00 > 0:15:03NEWS: 'The condition of the hundreds, sometimes thousands,

0:15:03 > 0:15:07'of human derelicts must be seen to be believed.'

0:15:07 > 0:15:11But the reality was considerably more complex than one of goodies

0:15:11 > 0:15:12and baddies.

0:15:18 > 0:15:24Biafran propaganda began to focus principally on hunger,

0:15:24 > 0:15:29and suffering, and starving children, and women suffering,

0:15:29 > 0:15:33and this Kwashiorkor's swollen belly children, and so on.

0:15:33 > 0:15:39And so the hunger became,

0:15:39 > 0:15:41for the first time,

0:15:41 > 0:15:43a weapon of propaganda.

0:15:46 > 0:15:49The Biafrans hired a PR agency, based in Switzerland,

0:15:49 > 0:15:52to help them sell their cause.

0:15:52 > 0:15:55NEWS: 'Under the name of Markpress, a small team of advertising men

0:15:55 > 0:15:59'and freelance journalists have waged a war of words,

0:15:59 > 0:16:03'skilfully selling to the rest of the world the case for Biafra.'

0:16:05 > 0:16:09They couldn't sell their political cause, so they sold their victims,

0:16:09 > 0:16:14and this is how they used this tool

0:16:14 > 0:16:18of famine and food and starvation.

0:16:31 > 0:16:36In order to save time, they had a kind of starvation camp inside

0:16:36 > 0:16:40their territory, where starving people,

0:16:40 > 0:16:43and primarily starving kids,

0:16:43 > 0:16:48were kept to be provided to the objectives of the cameras.

0:16:48 > 0:16:52So you could just go to Biafra, it took a couple of days,

0:16:52 > 0:16:57you could have nice snapshots of starving kids

0:16:57 > 0:17:02and then fly back to Europe, so propaganda played a major role.

0:17:07 > 0:17:10When we were there, during more than two years etc,

0:17:10 > 0:17:15we didn't discover any pressure coming from the Biafran leader.

0:17:15 > 0:17:17I mean, to stop themselves, their own children,

0:17:17 > 0:17:20it's a farce. It's a fallacy.

0:17:20 > 0:17:23They didn't do so, so they used the facts that

0:17:23 > 0:17:28are in their propaganda, but, well... Using the fact when you say,

0:17:28 > 0:17:31"My people are dying" you not only have the right,

0:17:31 > 0:17:33but the duty to do so.

0:17:37 > 0:17:42With aid now flooding into Biafra, a war that was all but lost

0:17:42 > 0:17:44was now prolonged for a further 18 months.

0:17:46 > 0:17:51The aid encouraged the soldiers because the line of supply

0:17:51 > 0:17:55also reached soldiers who, until then, would have been starving.

0:17:57 > 0:18:00The Biafran leader, Colonel Ojukwu,

0:18:00 > 0:18:02used the aid supplies to smuggle in weapons.

0:18:04 > 0:18:09Sometimes, when cash donations came into Biafra, Ojukwu told us

0:18:09 > 0:18:12we're donating the cash that, rather than bring the cash,

0:18:12 > 0:18:16they should use the cash to bring arms in for Biafra,

0:18:16 > 0:18:20because what Biafra needed most was to defend itself.

0:18:25 > 0:18:29It sort of radicalised the war.

0:18:29 > 0:18:33It gave the secessionist leadership the tools to continue the war,

0:18:33 > 0:18:37to avoid any kind of compromise,

0:18:37 > 0:18:41to dismiss any proposal of negotiations

0:18:41 > 0:18:45between the breakaway province

0:18:45 > 0:18:47and the federal government.

0:18:58 > 0:19:01The so-called rising sun of Biafra is set for ever.

0:19:03 > 0:19:05It will be a great disservice for anyone

0:19:05 > 0:19:09to continue to use the word Biafra

0:19:09 > 0:19:13to refer to any part of the East Central State of Nigeria.

0:19:17 > 0:19:19In the aftermath of the federal victory,

0:19:19 > 0:19:21there was reconciliation between the warring sides,

0:19:21 > 0:19:25and the suffering of the Biafran people quickly stopped.

0:19:28 > 0:19:29It became quite clear that

0:19:29 > 0:19:32when the record was accessed that the Biafran war

0:19:32 > 0:19:36had gone on a couple of years longer than it need have done,

0:19:36 > 0:19:40and one of the things that sustained that war

0:19:40 > 0:19:42was the humanitarian effort.

0:19:42 > 0:19:47And that is a very, very difficult conclusion to draw ethically

0:19:47 > 0:19:49for those agencies that were involved in it.

0:19:49 > 0:19:57The Biafra case has really cast a shadow over all those

0:19:57 > 0:20:02nearly 50 years since that time, and we still haven't quite come

0:20:02 > 0:20:06to terms with the fact that aid is manipulated.

0:20:22 > 0:20:26Years of rule by the notorious Khmer Rouge in Cambodia had created

0:20:26 > 0:20:30large refugee camps on the Thai border as people fled their rule.

0:20:34 > 0:20:38In 1979 their brutal regime came to an end

0:20:38 > 0:20:40when the Vietnamese invaded the country.

0:20:43 > 0:20:46I was working in a Cambodian refugee camp

0:20:46 > 0:20:49when the Khmer Rouge regime fall,

0:20:49 > 0:20:51and that obviously was very good news.

0:20:51 > 0:20:53I mean, we were all happy.

0:20:54 > 0:20:57I mean, we drank and sang in the camp

0:20:57 > 0:21:00because we were all victims of the Khmer Rouge.

0:21:00 > 0:21:04Like many French aid workers, Brauman had come to humanitarianism

0:21:04 > 0:21:08from the French Left, after becoming disillusioned with Communism.

0:21:11 > 0:21:16People like me decided that instead of trying to accomplish justice

0:21:16 > 0:21:23in the future, we'd try to bring a bit of justice here and now.

0:21:26 > 0:21:29It was hoped that the new Cambodian government would lead

0:21:29 > 0:21:32to an immediate improvement in people's lives.

0:21:40 > 0:21:41But within a few months,

0:21:41 > 0:21:45thousands of new refugees began to appear on the Thai border.

0:21:53 > 0:21:56We discovered a horrific landscape.

0:21:56 > 0:22:01I mean, thousands of people just crossing the border and, well,

0:22:01 > 0:22:05falling on the ground just to die.

0:22:06 > 0:22:11They used their last drop of energy to walk across the border

0:22:11 > 0:22:18and then fell on the ground, crying, groaning, coughing,

0:22:18 > 0:22:24throwing up - that was a nightmarish spectacle.

0:22:24 > 0:22:28And for me, probably because of my family history,

0:22:28 > 0:22:30it was just, well, "This is Auschwitz."

0:22:36 > 0:22:40We all thought that this was the tip of the iceberg

0:22:40 > 0:22:45and that the rest of the country was in a still worse state.

0:22:49 > 0:22:51And that is the beginning of the big mistake.

0:22:53 > 0:22:57NEWS: 'Pen Sovan, Defence Minister, is a strong man in the government,

0:22:57 > 0:23:02'but only by grace of the Vietnamese and their sponsors, the Russians.'

0:23:02 > 0:23:05This was a famine mired, in Cold War calculations.

0:23:11 > 0:23:14The new Cambodian regime was seen by the West as puppets

0:23:14 > 0:23:18of the Vietnamese, who in turn were puppets of the Soviets.

0:23:20 > 0:23:24You had a need for aid to go in,

0:23:24 > 0:23:28and yet a government not recognised, so the UN couldn't launch an appeal.

0:23:28 > 0:23:31US aid wouldn't put any money, and the big donors wouldn't.

0:23:31 > 0:23:35And what actually happened was a relatively small agency there,

0:23:35 > 0:23:39an Oxfam in Great Britain, it essentially said that this is

0:23:39 > 0:23:43just immoral, you can't just stand by and do nothing.

0:23:51 > 0:23:54ARCHIVE: 'The British public give over £100 million a year

0:23:54 > 0:23:56'to 78,000 different charities,

0:23:56 > 0:24:00'and a large slice, about three million, goes to Oxfam.

0:24:00 > 0:24:03'Curious when you consider our reputation for insularity.'

0:24:04 > 0:24:07Watching events from Oxford was Oxfam programme manager,

0:24:07 > 0:24:10Marcus Thompson.

0:24:10 > 0:24:15My concern, with young people, is that the image that is conjured up

0:24:15 > 0:24:18when someone mentions the word Oxfam doesn't switch them off.

0:24:18 > 0:24:21They think, "Oh", you know,

0:24:21 > 0:24:25"starving babies", because certainly we are about starving babies,

0:24:25 > 0:24:28but we're about a mass of other things too.

0:24:29 > 0:24:33If the new generation of French aid worker was drawn from the ranks

0:24:33 > 0:24:35of the disaffected Left, in Britain

0:24:35 > 0:24:39it was another sort of faith that drew the young to humanitarianism.

0:24:43 > 0:24:48I worked for Oxfam, and Oxfam is a non-confessional,

0:24:48 > 0:24:52non-religious organisation, although it was founded by people who...

0:24:52 > 0:24:57particularly Quakers, from a very liberal Christian tradition,

0:24:57 > 0:25:04so my conviction was, as a Christian,

0:25:04 > 0:25:10to do something that's useful for other people, in a sense,

0:25:10 > 0:25:15as a life of witness, but without ramming it down people's throats.

0:25:17 > 0:25:20Marcus Thompson formed part of an Oxfam delegation

0:25:20 > 0:25:23that went to Cambodia to set up an independent aid programme

0:25:23 > 0:25:26against the wishes of Western governments.

0:25:29 > 0:25:31He found a country in ruins.

0:25:33 > 0:25:37It was rather surreal.

0:25:37 > 0:25:41In '79, there was no currency.

0:25:41 > 0:25:46Currency was either State Express 555 cigarettes or rice.

0:25:46 > 0:25:49Currency was blowing in the streets and kids were collecting it up

0:25:49 > 0:25:55in order to light a fire under the kettle to boil the tea.

0:25:55 > 0:26:01Somebody, we assumed the Khmer Rouge, having cleared the city,

0:26:01 > 0:26:05had gone through the apartments and chucked everything out

0:26:05 > 0:26:12the window into the street, so the streets were heaped with rubbish.

0:26:12 > 0:26:16I mean, Cambodia was more than on its knees.

0:26:16 > 0:26:18I mean, it was on its stomach, if you like.

0:26:20 > 0:26:24With no other agency providing relief, Oxfam stepped in.

0:26:25 > 0:26:30Our director, it became his special baby, and he wanted to push it,

0:26:30 > 0:26:34which was partly sort of because he wanted to do a good job,

0:26:34 > 0:26:39and partly cos he wanted to put Oxfam in the limelight.

0:26:39 > 0:26:42So it became a big thing for Oxfam.

0:26:42 > 0:26:47Oxfam now launched its campaign to save the starving of Cambodia.

0:26:47 > 0:26:50MUSIC: "Message In A Bottle" by The Police

0:26:54 > 0:26:58Oh, I think there are thousands of people dying daily now,

0:26:58 > 0:27:00and I think that will grow.

0:27:00 > 0:27:03I think we will lose a million people by Christmas.

0:27:05 > 0:27:08Journalists reported similar fears from inside the country.

0:27:08 > 0:27:11# More loneliness that any man could bear. #

0:27:11 > 0:27:15They are dying because they have virtually nothing of value to eat.

0:27:15 > 0:27:19No fresh water, no vitamins, no milk, starving.

0:27:19 > 0:27:25How much time have we got to save those two million people?

0:27:25 > 0:27:27This has been requested for the next six months.

0:27:27 > 0:27:30- So we've got six months.- Yeah.

0:27:30 > 0:27:33The response of the British people to the appeal was the largest

0:27:33 > 0:27:34since Biafra.

0:27:35 > 0:27:39PRESENTER: 'The Great Blue Peter Bring and Buy Sale starts tomorrow.'

0:27:39 > 0:27:42Are you all going to come and buy your Christmas presents from here?

0:27:42 > 0:27:44Yes!

0:27:45 > 0:27:48What's still needed most is food, and that's where

0:27:48 > 0:27:52I think your appeal is going to literally save many lives.

0:27:52 > 0:27:55NEWS: 'With the Christmas shopping boom in London's West End now at

0:27:55 > 0:27:59'its peak, many cab drivers turned out happy to work for nothing,

0:27:59 > 0:28:03'donating all their takings for the starving people of Kampuchea.'

0:28:03 > 0:28:06# I hope that someone gets my

0:28:06 > 0:28:10# Message in a bottle

0:28:12 > 0:28:15# Message in a bottle. #

0:28:15 > 0:28:19After I'd got there, in a sense, the world went bananas

0:28:19 > 0:28:23about the horrors of Cambodia, which I was unaware of there in Cambodia,

0:28:23 > 0:28:27and we had an interesting exchange

0:28:27 > 0:28:34where I had reckoned I could spend about £100,000 over a year

0:28:34 > 0:28:39in the programme, and I got telexes

0:28:39 > 0:28:46to the Post Office saying "Actually, you can spend £1 million."

0:28:46 > 0:28:48And then a few days later,

0:28:48 > 0:28:50"Actually, you can spend £5 million".

0:28:50 > 0:28:55And I was telexing back, you know,

0:28:55 > 0:28:57"I'm trying to do a serious job,

0:28:57 > 0:28:59"Funny stories like that are not very helpful".

0:28:59 > 0:29:04And they're saying, "No, the world has gone bananas."

0:29:04 > 0:29:08Also with the Oxfam team was nutritionist Tim Lusty.

0:29:08 > 0:29:12As head of Oxfam's health unit, he was uniquely qualified to assess the

0:29:12 > 0:29:16nature of the famine and calculate how much food aid would be required.

0:29:18 > 0:29:21Our mission was to make an assessment

0:29:21 > 0:29:24and to start implementing...

0:29:24 > 0:29:27Well, it's sort of taking stuff in.

0:29:27 > 0:29:32So my job is particularly to look at the medical and feeding side.

0:29:37 > 0:29:41Lusty travelled around Phnom Penh, measuring the circumference of

0:29:41 > 0:29:46children's arms, the standard method then used to assess malnutrition.

0:29:49 > 0:29:53After all the reports of starvation, his findings were unexpected.

0:29:56 > 0:29:59Let me make it absolutely straight from now,

0:29:59 > 0:30:02there was not a famine inside.

0:30:02 > 0:30:07I mean, I was the first nutritionist to go in and do an assessment,

0:30:07 > 0:30:10and there just wasn't a famine there.

0:30:10 > 0:30:13And it caused me a certain amount of anxiety at the time

0:30:13 > 0:30:18because it had already been put out that four million were going to die

0:30:18 > 0:30:22before Christmas if we didn't get so many tonnes of food.

0:30:23 > 0:30:26'We're absolutely overwhelmed here at Blue Peter.'

0:30:26 > 0:30:30We've now got £500,000, that's half a million pounds,

0:30:30 > 0:30:31which is quite incredible.

0:30:31 > 0:30:35I'm not a very emotional person at certain points in time,

0:30:35 > 0:30:39so when I'm doing a job I like to be accurate, and I travelled around,

0:30:39 > 0:30:41more than anybody else had travelled around,

0:30:41 > 0:30:43and I used my arm circumference,

0:30:43 > 0:30:45a little bit of tape measure to measure,

0:30:45 > 0:30:46and there was an orphanage where

0:30:46 > 0:30:49they said that the children were in a terrible state.

0:30:49 > 0:30:51Well, it was dirty and filthy and all sorts of things,

0:30:51 > 0:30:55but there wasn't a single child that was severely malnourished

0:30:55 > 0:30:56in the whole place.

0:30:57 > 0:31:04The exact figure that we have reached so far is 653,166,

0:31:04 > 0:31:06which is pretty staggering news.

0:31:06 > 0:31:08And it's all due to you.

0:31:09 > 0:31:13And then I travelled round with our director,

0:31:13 > 0:31:18and I said, "I'll travel round, you point any child to me

0:31:18 > 0:31:22"that we see in the streets or anywhere that you think is starving,

0:31:22 > 0:31:27"and I'll do an arm circumference on him and tell you whether he is."

0:31:27 > 0:31:30And, of course, we didn't find any at all.

0:31:32 > 0:31:35And it's now flashing at the two million mark.

0:31:35 > 0:31:41In fact, the exact figure is £2,006,041.

0:31:45 > 0:31:48Lusty wrote a report detailing what he had found.

0:31:50 > 0:31:54- REPORTER:- 'You wrote this in your report, and how was it received?'

0:31:54 > 0:31:58Well, they ignored my report because...

0:31:58 > 0:32:02Yeah. I mean, I don't want to knock Oxfam cos it's one of the most

0:32:02 > 0:32:05brilliant organisations and I owe them a huge amount

0:32:05 > 0:32:08for bits of my life, but on this particular occasion

0:32:08 > 0:32:10they got it wrong.

0:32:10 > 0:32:13You know, I was isolated and it was really hard on me

0:32:13 > 0:32:17because they'd arranged for me to do a series of talks round the

0:32:17 > 0:32:21whole of the UK, the Home Division.

0:32:21 > 0:32:24And I said, "Look, I'm very happy to do that,

0:32:24 > 0:32:27"but one thing I'm not going to say is four million people

0:32:27 > 0:32:31"are going to die before Christmas because I believe this is wrong."

0:32:31 > 0:32:35And they cancelled the entire... and I wasn't asked...

0:32:35 > 0:32:39I was not encouraged to talk to the press or anything.

0:32:39 > 0:32:42There was no famine in Cambodia.

0:32:42 > 0:32:47All the conditions to create a massive famine were there.

0:32:51 > 0:32:57But Cambodia is such a generous nature, a generous environment,

0:32:57 > 0:33:03and the Cambodian people seem to know so well

0:33:03 > 0:33:08how to find food from their environment

0:33:08 > 0:33:12that, well, they survive, there was no real starvation.

0:33:18 > 0:33:22And the terrible conditions we saw amongst the people

0:33:22 > 0:33:25who'd crossed the border, was due to the fact

0:33:25 > 0:33:31that they'd been walking for months and months in the rainforest,

0:33:31 > 0:33:35in very harsh environment,

0:33:35 > 0:33:40so they'd fallen sick, but they did not represent the country.

0:33:40 > 0:33:43They were not the tip of the iceberg, as we thought,

0:33:43 > 0:33:45they were just an exception.

0:33:51 > 0:33:53- REPORTER:- The campaign was already in train

0:33:53 > 0:33:57saying that millions would die by Christmas,

0:33:57 > 0:34:00so to get a report saying people would get by...

0:34:00 > 0:34:01Yes. It's...

0:34:01 > 0:34:04..and in a sense that was then a very damning report.

0:34:04 > 0:34:05It was a horrific situation.

0:34:05 > 0:34:08I'm not sure where the, you know,

0:34:08 > 0:34:10"N million people will die by Christmas" came from.

0:34:10 > 0:34:16It certainly galvanised people, who helped to galvanise people here.

0:34:16 > 0:34:20The heart of it, though - isn't it wrong to say that X million

0:34:20 > 0:34:24will die by Christmas, when Oxfam knew that they wouldn't?

0:34:24 > 0:34:26Yes, it's wrong to say that

0:34:26 > 0:34:28if we know that they wouldn't.

0:34:30 > 0:34:36Yes, maybe we were wrong in that situation to do that,

0:34:36 > 0:34:41but there certainly were urgent needs and there certainly were

0:34:41 > 0:34:45people dying, whether it was that many, it's difficult to know.

0:34:49 > 0:34:53The making of false claims is a huge part of humanitarianism.

0:34:53 > 0:34:56People are always going to starve in humanitarian predictions.

0:34:56 > 0:35:00It's always going to be terrible famine, impossible famine,

0:35:00 > 0:35:03and often these predictions are quite wild.

0:35:03 > 0:35:08The big problem with the aid system is that it does fall

0:35:08 > 0:35:10back into kind of institutional interest -

0:35:10 > 0:35:14that everybody in it starts thinking about their own interests.

0:35:15 > 0:35:20So we get a kind of distortion of what is actually told in public

0:35:20 > 0:35:25because the institutions turn what they're hearing

0:35:25 > 0:35:28on the ground into something that will encourage more aid.

0:35:28 > 0:35:31So the message is always, "Yes, but if you give a little bit more,

0:35:31 > 0:35:35"then we'll solve that problem. It just needs more money."

0:35:35 > 0:35:38More money, more money is the message endlessly coming out.

0:35:42 > 0:35:44CHEERING

0:35:44 > 0:35:46MUSIC: "Rescue" by Echo and the Bunnymen

0:35:46 > 0:35:49THATCHER: Her Majesty The Queen has asked me to form

0:35:49 > 0:35:52a new administration,

0:35:52 > 0:35:53and I have accepted.

0:35:53 > 0:35:59We can and will resolve the problems which now confront us.

0:36:02 > 0:36:05The rise to power of Margaret Thatcher

0:36:05 > 0:36:08and Ronald Reagan saw an intensification of the Cold War.

0:36:12 > 0:36:16More than ever, politics dictated who received aid.

0:36:16 > 0:36:20This has been a tremendously successful visit

0:36:20 > 0:36:23and one which we shall long remember.

0:36:23 > 0:36:27When news emerged that a Soviet ally was suffering a terrible famine,

0:36:27 > 0:36:29the West was reluctant to help...

0:36:30 > 0:36:32..until the news became too big to ignore.

0:36:32 > 0:36:36# Come down to my rescue. #

0:36:43 > 0:36:46MICHAEL BUERK: 'Dawn, and as the sun breaks through the piercing chill

0:36:46 > 0:36:48'of night on the plain outside Korem,

0:36:48 > 0:36:53'it lights up a biblical famine, now, in the 20th century.

0:36:53 > 0:36:58'This place, say workers here, is the closest thing to hell on earth.'

0:37:02 > 0:37:05Korem was, in a way, more like a concentration camp

0:37:05 > 0:37:08than any refugee camp that I'd see before.

0:37:08 > 0:37:10A scene from hell, frankly.

0:37:10 > 0:37:13I mean, most extraordinary place on the plant.

0:37:13 > 0:37:16You drive along the plateau in Wollo,

0:37:16 > 0:37:19to a place called Alamata, and then you start going up a very

0:37:19 > 0:37:22windy road, and then you appear right at the top

0:37:22 > 0:37:24on this incredible plateau.

0:37:24 > 0:37:27I suppose it's 2,800 metres, something like that.

0:37:29 > 0:37:34It's the residue of a volcanic crater, vast undulating plain.

0:37:34 > 0:37:38People just going as far as the eye could see, just camping in the open.

0:37:40 > 0:37:45You feel that, "Well, this is the end of the world", you know.

0:37:45 > 0:37:50People dressed in rags, sleeping in just a piece of cloth.

0:37:50 > 0:37:53It was a terrible situation.

0:37:56 > 0:38:00MICHAEL BUERK: 'There's not enough food for half these people.

0:38:00 > 0:38:02'Rumours of a shipment can set off panic.

0:38:04 > 0:38:06'As on most days, the rumours were false.

0:38:06 > 0:38:09'For many here there would be no food again today.'

0:38:13 > 0:38:18The pictures coming out of Ethiopia caused outrage around the world.

0:38:18 > 0:38:21Their impact was most immediate in Britain.

0:38:21 > 0:38:23The aid world was about to be transformed

0:38:23 > 0:38:25with the recruitment of pop stars to the cause.

0:38:27 > 0:38:30NEWS: 'The Ethiopian Famine Appeal will be boosted

0:38:30 > 0:38:32'by sales of a special pop record.

0:38:32 > 0:38:35'Over 25 stars sang for nothing at today's recording session

0:38:35 > 0:38:39'in London and all the proceeds will go to Famine Relief.'

0:38:39 > 0:38:43# Do they know it's Christmas time at all? #

0:38:43 > 0:38:45What made you have the idea of trying to get

0:38:45 > 0:38:48all these people together to make a record and a video like this?

0:38:48 > 0:38:51Well, unlike other people, I'm in a position to do something else

0:38:51 > 0:38:54other than put my hand in my pocket.

0:38:54 > 0:38:56Boy George flew in on Concorde.

0:38:56 > 0:38:58U2 had one day off on a six month world tour

0:38:58 > 0:39:01and they flew in from Dublin on their one day off to be there.

0:39:01 > 0:39:03It's an astonishing achievement

0:39:03 > 0:39:06to get all these people in one place at one time.

0:39:06 > 0:39:10Millions bought the record, millions more gave money.

0:39:10 > 0:39:12MUSIC: "What Difference Does It Make?" by The Smiths

0:39:12 > 0:39:16Band Aid inspired a new generation to go one step further...

0:39:18 > 0:39:22..to go and work for aid agencies to save lives in Africa.

0:39:22 > 0:39:25Eyes to the camera. Good!

0:39:25 > 0:39:27# For we have been through hell and high tide

0:39:27 > 0:39:29# I think I can rely on you... #

0:39:29 > 0:39:33For me, it felt that there was a wrong to be righted

0:39:33 > 0:39:39and, you know, every generation must have it.

0:39:39 > 0:39:43It's that moment when you think you can be a little hero.

0:39:43 > 0:39:44You know, some guys go to war,

0:39:44 > 0:39:47so instead of going to a war we went to a famine.

0:39:52 > 0:39:55I had just come out of a degree in theology,

0:39:55 > 0:39:57a year with disabled children,

0:39:57 > 0:40:01six months in an investment bank which I had hated,

0:40:01 > 0:40:06and another bit of background in the Italian fashion industry,

0:40:06 > 0:40:12and I was flown in to Khartoum and then flown immediately

0:40:12 > 0:40:15in a small plane down to Gadarif.

0:40:15 > 0:40:19And I walked and found all these Australian and English medics

0:40:19 > 0:40:22and nurses having a pretty rough breakfast, and I said,

0:40:22 > 0:40:23"Hi, I'm Hugo."

0:40:26 > 0:40:29And they said, "Oh, great, Hugo, good to see you, mate.

0:40:29 > 0:40:31"So what are you, an engineer? What can you do for us?

0:40:31 > 0:40:33"What are your skills?"

0:40:33 > 0:40:36And I said, "Well, actually, no, my degree's in theology

0:40:36 > 0:40:39"and I've just been doing investment banking."

0:40:39 > 0:40:41And they hit the roof.

0:40:42 > 0:40:45So that was my first day and I thought, "Oh, God."

0:40:45 > 0:40:48# But now you know the truth about me

0:40:48 > 0:40:51# You won't see me any more

0:40:51 > 0:40:55# Well, I'm still fond of you Oh ho oh... #

0:40:55 > 0:41:00I just had this very strong and simple sense

0:41:00 > 0:41:02that it was fundamentally unjust

0:41:02 > 0:41:06for people to be starving in the modern world,

0:41:06 > 0:41:10and I suppose I had a vision that it could be put right and that it

0:41:10 > 0:41:15was fairly easy to put it right, it just required determination.

0:41:15 > 0:41:19And so I thought "Well, you know, I'll work for an organisation

0:41:19 > 0:41:24"like Oxfam and do what I can to put that right."

0:41:32 > 0:41:37I think that because, and again I don't wish to sound self-important,

0:41:37 > 0:41:41but because it's a media event and has been largely sponsored

0:41:41 > 0:41:46and created by the media, that it's going to be under intense scrutiny,

0:41:46 > 0:41:49and I think the chances of it going astray are very slim indeed.

0:41:52 > 0:41:54I had one trip with Geldof.

0:41:54 > 0:41:55We took him up to Korem, actually.

0:41:55 > 0:42:00I found him, at that time, probably the most impressive,

0:42:00 > 0:42:04charismatic, intelligent person that I had ever worked with.

0:42:04 > 0:42:07He was phenomenally impressive.

0:42:07 > 0:42:11Bob Geldof came to Ethiopia to see for himself

0:42:11 > 0:42:16the extent of the crisis but, at the same time, it was difficult

0:42:16 > 0:42:18to ask a question, serious questions,

0:42:18 > 0:42:20very provocative questions,

0:42:20 > 0:42:24and the way he said it was very rough, of course.

0:42:24 > 0:42:27And in Ethiopia people are very religious, very spiritual,

0:42:27 > 0:42:28and very traditional.

0:42:28 > 0:42:30There are certain things that you don't say at all.

0:42:30 > 0:42:33- Such as?- Such as the F word!

0:42:33 > 0:42:39Bob Geldof can't complete a sentence without the F word,

0:42:39 > 0:42:43so it was difficult to meet senior officials

0:42:43 > 0:42:49because we were afraid that he would really create some problems.

0:42:56 > 0:43:00Geldof and Band Aid successfully shamed the British government

0:43:00 > 0:43:03to forget the Cold War and increase aid to Ethiopia.

0:43:08 > 0:43:12And to ensure that the donations from the public kept coming,

0:43:12 > 0:43:15Geldof and the aid agencies kept the message simple.

0:43:16 > 0:43:20GELDOF: The object is to get food, through every obstacle,

0:43:20 > 0:43:22to people who are dying.

0:43:22 > 0:43:25I don't care if I have to deal with Marxists, or Fascists,

0:43:25 > 0:43:30or the multi-headed beast of Fleet Street,

0:43:30 > 0:43:32I don't care who I have to deal with to do that.

0:43:38 > 0:43:43I mean, Bob Geldof's great, you know, catch line is always,

0:43:43 > 0:43:46"But the children are starving so, you know, we need to feed them."

0:43:46 > 0:43:49I mean, any issue that was ever thrown at him,

0:43:49 > 0:43:52his response was always, "But I'll show you a starving child

0:43:52 > 0:43:54"and you've got to feed that child,

0:43:54 > 0:43:56"and don't tell me anything else at all."

0:43:56 > 0:44:00So Bob Geldof was the embodiment of the non-political approach.

0:44:00 > 0:44:04This whole idea of popular culture joining together

0:44:04 > 0:44:11with the humanitarian cause, making it sort of cool to care, frankly,

0:44:11 > 0:44:16and obviously, you can't do that if you get too deep into the politics.

0:44:16 > 0:44:19You've got to keep it a pretty superficial, pretty simple message.

0:44:19 > 0:44:23Don't mention politics, keep out of politics, keep away from politics.

0:44:23 > 0:44:24Our cause is so right, it's so simple,

0:44:24 > 0:44:26you don't need to think about this,

0:44:26 > 0:44:28you just need to pony up a little bit.

0:44:28 > 0:44:31The politics just got airbrushed out of all this.

0:44:31 > 0:44:32MICHAEL BUERK: 'Death is all around.

0:44:32 > 0:44:36'A child or an adult dies every 20 minutes.

0:44:36 > 0:44:39'A tragedy bigger than anybody seems to realise,

0:44:39 > 0:44:41'getting worse every day.'

0:44:43 > 0:44:46The story, as it had been presented by the press

0:44:46 > 0:44:51and most aid agencies, was simple - a drought had caused the famine.

0:44:51 > 0:44:53This was largely a natural disaster.

0:44:55 > 0:44:58But as ever, the truth was a little more complicated.

0:45:00 > 0:45:06The famine in Ethiopia was not, you know, rain failure -

0:45:06 > 0:45:09I mean, there was a bit of rain failure in it -

0:45:09 > 0:45:12but actually the Ethiopian Government was fighting a war

0:45:12 > 0:45:14against the people of the north,

0:45:14 > 0:45:17who wanted, in effect, to break away.

0:45:20 > 0:45:23So, the Government was deliberately starving that area

0:45:23 > 0:45:26and that, really, you know, had led to the famine.

0:45:42 > 0:45:44They were destroying crops.

0:45:44 > 0:45:47They were stationing garrisons in areas and stopping people

0:45:47 > 0:45:50from moving around and trading and selling their food, etcetera.

0:45:50 > 0:45:53And the combination of those things

0:45:53 > 0:45:58then grinds down a poor and drought-affected population

0:45:58 > 0:46:00to a position of famine.

0:46:02 > 0:46:06The aid was saving thousands of lives in the refugee camps,

0:46:06 > 0:46:10but the food that had been provided by Western governments in the UN

0:46:10 > 0:46:14was also being used by the Ethiopian regime to fight its wars.

0:46:15 > 0:46:18Vast amounts of aid rushed in.

0:46:18 > 0:46:23Put a lot of food aid into that situation without adequate

0:46:23 > 0:46:25control and monitoring, which is what happened,

0:46:25 > 0:46:29you end up aiding and abetting a counterinsurgency strategy,

0:46:29 > 0:46:32and indeed feeding a lot of that army,

0:46:32 > 0:46:34and that's actually what happened.

0:46:35 > 0:46:40There is quite a lot of evidence to suggest that the Government

0:46:40 > 0:46:43was practically running the war on the basis of this aid operation.

0:46:46 > 0:46:50They artificially altered the exchange rate,

0:46:50 > 0:46:53so that they could make a huge profit on the...

0:46:53 > 0:46:58All the money that was coming into Ethiopia, they siphoned off,

0:46:58 > 0:47:02in effect a kind of tax, which helped them run the war.

0:47:11 > 0:47:14Eight months after Buerk's BBC report,

0:47:14 > 0:47:18and with famine still raging, Geldof and Band Aid sought to bring

0:47:18 > 0:47:21Ethiopia's problems to an even larger global audience.

0:47:21 > 0:47:23CHEERING

0:47:23 > 0:47:25I think that this is, quite obviously,

0:47:25 > 0:47:27the most important pop event ever.

0:47:27 > 0:47:29I don't think it will ever happen again

0:47:29 > 0:47:32that these bands get together on one stage.

0:47:32 > 0:47:34And they're doing it in the face of,

0:47:34 > 0:47:38quite obviously, the worst natural disaster in our history,

0:47:38 > 0:47:39so it is a magnificent gesture.

0:47:39 > 0:47:43This is where you see the humanitarian international start

0:47:43 > 0:47:48really selling itself as proxies to the conscience of the West,

0:47:48 > 0:47:50and I think that that's, in some ways,

0:47:50 > 0:47:52what you really saw in the Ethiopian famine.

0:47:52 > 0:47:55There was an enormous amount of political complexity

0:47:55 > 0:47:56that got pasted over,

0:47:56 > 0:47:58and the humanitarians say, "We did our best."

0:47:58 > 0:48:01You know, "What should we have done?

0:48:01 > 0:48:04"We were just here trying to help famine.

0:48:04 > 0:48:07"Please explain to me why that was wrong,

0:48:07 > 0:48:09"that we wanted to help starving people."

0:48:09 > 0:48:12You know, it's a very kind of naive argument,

0:48:12 > 0:48:15because it insists that you're not supposed to think.

0:48:15 > 0:48:16This is, without doubt...

0:48:18 > 0:48:23..the most massive catastrophe...

0:48:24 > 0:48:27..that has been visited upon this planet.

0:48:27 > 0:48:28PHONE RINGING

0:48:28 > 0:48:31People are not... giving in the hope

0:48:31 > 0:48:34that these problems will ever go away -

0:48:34 > 0:48:39in reality, they're giving in the hope that

0:48:39 > 0:48:41that problem will go away from them,

0:48:41 > 0:48:46that they will not have to worry about that problem.

0:48:46 > 0:48:50So, you sign a cheque and you somehow forget the child

0:48:50 > 0:48:54that you've seen starving, or whatever it is, for the time being.

0:48:54 > 0:48:57And, having paid your money, you then expect to be left alone.

0:48:57 > 0:48:59You don't want somebody bombarding with you,

0:48:59 > 0:49:01"Do you think your money actually did any good?"

0:49:08 > 0:49:11As the aid programme intensified,

0:49:11 > 0:49:14the Ethiopian Government embarked on a policy it said

0:49:14 > 0:49:17would end the problems of famine, once and for all.

0:49:18 > 0:49:21REPORTER: Ethiopia's Marxist government has begun

0:49:21 > 0:49:24a huge operation to resettle people from the barren areas

0:49:24 > 0:49:27of the north to the more fertile land in the south.

0:49:30 > 0:49:33The resettlement was ostensibly about relieving

0:49:33 > 0:49:37population pressure on the drought-stricken, famine-stricken,

0:49:37 > 0:49:40famine-prone highlands, and creating new,

0:49:40 > 0:49:44model socialist villages down in the lush, green south.

0:49:44 > 0:49:47But, of course, the other reason for doing that was

0:49:47 > 0:49:51the great Maoist counterinsurgency strategy

0:49:51 > 0:49:54of draining the sea from the fish.

0:49:54 > 0:49:57So, draining all the population out of an area,

0:49:57 > 0:49:59and so you just have the rump of your enemy there,

0:49:59 > 0:50:01and you could fight them more easily.

0:50:05 > 0:50:09Tens of thousands of often sick refugees were being rounded up

0:50:09 > 0:50:11from the camps and taken away against their will.

0:50:16 > 0:50:20The Ethiopian Government used food aid to help draw them in.

0:50:21 > 0:50:25We were in a certain place south of Korem

0:50:25 > 0:50:29just distributing dry rations.

0:50:29 > 0:50:31Then, once the people had gathered

0:50:31 > 0:50:35in those distribution or relief centres,

0:50:35 > 0:50:37then they were easy to surround.

0:50:39 > 0:50:45So, we were used as bait in a population trap,

0:50:45 > 0:50:47a bait to attract, to lure the people,

0:50:47 > 0:50:51to attract them to these relief centres

0:50:51 > 0:50:55and then send them to, well, the south of the country.

0:51:00 > 0:51:03Tens of thousands of people were dying

0:51:03 > 0:51:06in the process of being resettled,

0:51:06 > 0:51:09to the point that, in '85, we realised that

0:51:09 > 0:51:13more people were dying from forced relocation

0:51:13 > 0:51:15than from the famine itself.

0:51:18 > 0:51:20Rony Brauman went public in his criticism

0:51:20 > 0:51:23of the Ethiopian regime's resettlement policies.

0:51:26 > 0:51:29The consequences for MSF were instantaneous.

0:51:30 > 0:51:32They were expelled from Ethiopia.

0:51:33 > 0:51:34It provoked the Government,

0:51:34 > 0:51:38and I was being blamed for that. I was told, "You, Dawit,

0:51:38 > 0:51:41"you are the ones who brought these people,

0:51:41 > 0:51:43"and now they are working against the Government.

0:51:43 > 0:51:45"They're talking about the Government.

0:51:45 > 0:51:47"Your own people, you handle them properly,

0:51:47 > 0:51:49"tell them what..."

0:51:49 > 0:51:52So, they created difficulties for me.

0:51:52 > 0:51:55I supported the idea of them being kicked out of the country,

0:51:55 > 0:51:59because these were sensitive times, and it had to be handled with care.

0:51:59 > 0:52:04The kind of statement that was coming out from the MSF was very...

0:52:04 > 0:52:06was reckless, it didn't help.

0:52:07 > 0:52:10Brauman and MSF asked the other aid agencies to join them

0:52:10 > 0:52:12in condemning the resettlement policy.

0:52:14 > 0:52:16They all refused.

0:52:17 > 0:52:21REPORTER: The Red Cross says that the expulsion was hardly surprising,

0:52:21 > 0:52:23considering the allegations made.

0:52:23 > 0:52:25Other agencies have kept silent,

0:52:25 > 0:52:28Save The Children Fund saying they'd have made representations

0:52:28 > 0:52:31at a local level, rather than going public.

0:52:32 > 0:52:35INTERVIEWER: Do you think now that you should have been

0:52:35 > 0:52:38- more critical of this policy? - I think we played...

0:52:38 > 0:52:40quite a good game in Ethiopia - that's to say

0:52:40 > 0:52:43that we stayed in touch with the Ethiopian Government.

0:52:43 > 0:52:46We didn't want to become an enemy of the Ethiopian Government.

0:52:46 > 0:52:48We kept quiet. We handled it in, I suppose,

0:52:48 > 0:52:51what you might call a diplomatic way, but there were elements

0:52:51 > 0:52:53of compromise in that position, certainly.

0:52:56 > 0:52:59We agreed to hold the line of all the other NGOs

0:52:59 > 0:53:04to recognise the problem, to sort of, um...

0:53:04 > 0:53:06not condone it in any way,

0:53:06 > 0:53:10but not to step over a line where we might all get thrown out.

0:53:16 > 0:53:19You know, I feel an element of, um...

0:53:19 > 0:53:23I suppose naivety and shame about my understanding of this programme.

0:53:23 > 0:53:27I was 23, probably nearly 24 by then,

0:53:27 > 0:53:29and I think I just didn't know enough.

0:53:32 > 0:53:34I knew it was, you know, morally wrong

0:53:34 > 0:53:38to force people on to trucks and drive them south,

0:53:38 > 0:53:41and take them away from their families in the middle of the night,

0:53:41 > 0:53:48but I just didn't really understand, I suppose, the...

0:53:48 > 0:53:51the extent of the sort of political agenda and all that.

0:53:52 > 0:53:54I wasn't quite sure whether the Ethiopians were just

0:53:54 > 0:53:57misguidedly trying to do something that was good,

0:53:57 > 0:54:00but getting it wrong and being misguided,

0:54:00 > 0:54:05or whether they were being brutal Stalinists, basically.

0:54:08 > 0:54:11We took a sternly impartial view,

0:54:11 > 0:54:14but we also took the view that...

0:54:16 > 0:54:19..this operation had to be run with the Ethiopian Government

0:54:19 > 0:54:21or, effectively, not at all.

0:54:21 > 0:54:23If you wanted access on the Ethiopian side,

0:54:23 > 0:54:26the Ethiopian Government had to be, to a degree, accommodated.

0:54:35 > 0:54:37MUSIC: "Heroes" by David Bowie

0:54:38 > 0:54:41- REPORTER:- The combination of rock music and charity

0:54:41 > 0:54:43shows every sign of continuing to deliver the goods.

0:54:43 > 0:54:47On the 13th July, 1985, over a billion people gathered

0:54:47 > 0:54:51to watch what was billed as the greatest rock event in history.

0:54:53 > 0:54:56But Rony Brauman, who had been expelled for speaking out

0:54:56 > 0:54:59against the Ethiopian Government's policies,

0:54:59 > 0:55:01saw it all rather differently.

0:55:02 > 0:55:04The tragic thing is that,

0:55:04 > 0:55:09at the very time these concerts were taking place,

0:55:09 > 0:55:12forced relocation was at its peak.

0:55:12 > 0:55:15Hundreds of thousands of people had been abducted

0:55:15 > 0:55:18to be taken to places they didn't want to go to,

0:55:18 > 0:55:20and where they were dying by the thousands.

0:55:20 > 0:55:23And all this was happening when, you know,

0:55:23 > 0:55:27they were all singing and dancing and praising themselves,

0:55:27 > 0:55:31in a kind of self-congratulation attitude

0:55:31 > 0:55:34which was just disgusting, absolutely disgusting.

0:55:34 > 0:55:36# And you

0:55:37 > 0:55:39# You can be mean

0:55:42 > 0:55:44# And I... #

0:55:47 > 0:55:50Sometimes, you know, when you are in this...

0:55:50 > 0:55:53aid community, nice-feeling community,

0:55:55 > 0:55:58..well, you feel strange, you feel bizarre,

0:55:58 > 0:56:01because I didn't recognise myself at all,

0:56:01 > 0:56:03and whilst watching this concert I felt like,

0:56:03 > 0:56:06well, I don't want to be part of this world.

0:56:07 > 0:56:09# We could steal time

0:56:11 > 0:56:12# Just for one day... #

0:56:12 > 0:56:17Ethiopia had raised the profile of humanitarianism as never before,

0:56:17 > 0:56:19and inspired an entire generation to action.

0:56:20 > 0:56:23# ..For ever and ever

0:56:23 > 0:56:25# What d'you say? #

0:56:29 > 0:56:32But it would take the end of the Cold War,

0:56:32 > 0:56:34with all its constraints and limitations,

0:56:34 > 0:56:37for humanitarians to fully realise their ambitions

0:56:37 > 0:56:40to not just feed the world, but to change it.

0:56:52 > 0:56:54- REPORTER:- More than 30,000 people have been killed or wounded

0:56:54 > 0:56:58in the struggle for power after the former dictator,

0:56:58 > 0:57:01Mohamed Siad Barre, was overthrown last year.

0:57:01 > 0:57:03GUNFIRE

0:57:06 > 0:57:10The capital, Mogadishu, has been devastated by the fighting...

0:57:12 > 0:57:15..and millions of people who fled the war zone are starving.

0:57:30 > 0:57:32The Somalia case was particularly tragic.

0:57:32 > 0:57:36It arose out of Cold War politics.

0:57:36 > 0:57:39Both America and Russia had armed Somalia,

0:57:39 > 0:57:43they'd allowed a particular regime to survive simply through arms.

0:57:43 > 0:57:47No political process had happened for years and years and years...

0:57:48 > 0:57:50..and so there was a conflict.

0:57:50 > 0:57:54And the president at that time, Siad Barre, was driven out

0:57:54 > 0:57:58of the country and there was sort of mayhem all over the place.

0:58:07 > 0:58:10- REPORTER:- The capital, Mogadishu, has been destroyed.

0:58:10 > 0:58:13Those that haven't fled live like rats in the ruins,

0:58:13 > 0:58:16coming out when the firing stops to look for food.

0:58:19 > 0:58:23All of the arms and ammunition, and all of the various factions

0:58:23 > 0:58:27who had fought over Mogadishu by that time, had destroyed it.

0:58:27 > 0:58:30So, I mean, Mogadishu had been blown apart, blown apart.

0:58:45 > 0:58:48In that process a famine emerged, you know,

0:58:48 > 0:58:50because of the instability.

0:58:57 > 0:59:01Somalia was the worst famine the world had seen since Ethiopia.

0:59:02 > 0:59:05Hundreds of aid workers now arrived in the country.

0:59:06 > 0:59:09Among them was 25-year-old Fiona Terry

0:59:09 > 0:59:12on her second major foreign assignment.

0:59:13 > 0:59:15Oh, it was just terrible.

0:59:15 > 0:59:17Landed in Baidoa in August '92,

0:59:17 > 0:59:20and Baidoa at that point was the epicentre of the famine.

0:59:20 > 0:59:24There was about 200 people dying a day in the town,

0:59:24 > 0:59:26and, oh, the images were just so shocking.

0:59:26 > 0:59:28I had never seen anything like that.

0:59:35 > 0:59:39Ethiopia veteran Tony Vaux went to Somalia to organise

0:59:39 > 0:59:41the start of Oxfam's food programme.

0:59:43 > 0:59:47I visited an area not far from Mogadishu.

0:59:47 > 0:59:50I went into a meeting in this village and, um...

0:59:52 > 0:59:56..I think they felt that they wanted to bring all the people out,

0:59:56 > 1:00:00you know, for this meeting, so people were literally

1:00:00 > 1:00:04brought out of their houses, were carried out of their houses.

1:00:04 > 1:00:09At the end of the meeting, you know, when I was ready to leave, um...

1:00:11 > 1:00:17..people came forward and tried to lift up one or two of these people,

1:00:17 > 1:00:20but they were either dead or practically dead.

1:00:20 > 1:00:22You know, they...

1:00:22 > 1:00:24They'd died actually on the spot.

1:00:24 > 1:00:26It's the only time it's ever happened to me,

1:00:26 > 1:00:31you know, actually to be in a famine in that point

1:00:31 > 1:00:35when people are "dying like flies", is the phrase.

1:00:41 > 1:00:43- REPORTER:- 'The aid effort has been hampered

1:00:43 > 1:00:45'because the country is torn by civil war.

1:00:45 > 1:00:49'The result has been that, although aid has been arriving the port,

1:00:49 > 1:00:52'it's not reaching the people who need it because the fighting

1:00:52 > 1:00:55'in Mogadishu makes effective distribution impossible.'

1:00:55 > 1:00:57The food came into Mogadishu,

1:00:57 > 1:01:00but food is money, and food is power.

1:01:01 > 1:01:05So, for every time you try to send a convoy and negotiate access,

1:01:05 > 1:01:07those convoys would not get through.

1:01:07 > 1:01:10The trucks would be looted, the food would be stolen,

1:01:10 > 1:01:13to keep those militias going - it was their economy.

1:01:14 > 1:01:16I mean, the worst example of this for me

1:01:16 > 1:01:18was in a food distribution centre.

1:01:18 > 1:01:21We had already cut the blankets in half,

1:01:21 > 1:01:23not because we didn't have enough blankets to go around,

1:01:23 > 1:01:26but to ruin the value of blankets on the market,

1:01:26 > 1:01:27because everything was being stolen.

1:01:27 > 1:01:30Having cut the blankets in half, having distributed them

1:01:30 > 1:01:33to women and children who are really,

1:01:33 > 1:01:35you know, on their last legs,

1:01:35 > 1:01:39suddenly a pick-up full of armed men pulled up beside the feeding centre.

1:01:44 > 1:01:48The guys jumped out and they just started ripping the blankets

1:01:48 > 1:01:51out of the hands of the children and the women, and I just lost it.

1:01:51 > 1:01:54I was SCREAMING at the guy with the gun. Completely lost it.

1:01:54 > 1:01:58Just could not tolerate, could not bear any more to see this going on.

1:01:58 > 1:02:01And it just so happens that there was a film crew,

1:02:01 > 1:02:04and they took me away and said, "Fiona, cool down, cool down,

1:02:04 > 1:02:06"you know, you don't want to end up dead."

1:02:09 > 1:02:12- REPORTER:- 'The aid agencies are trying to reach rural areas

1:02:12 > 1:02:14'by hiring gunmen to escort their convoys,

1:02:14 > 1:02:18'but the danger and the scale of the task are immense.'

1:02:18 > 1:02:23Now, many of us made accommodations with those militias.

1:02:23 > 1:02:25INTERVIEWER: What do you mean by an accommodation?

1:02:25 > 1:02:27Well, we paid them, and we paid them a lot of money.

1:02:27 > 1:02:31And we paid them in the way you'd pay a protection racket.

1:02:31 > 1:02:34So being there, you're funding the war?

1:02:34 > 1:02:35Yes.

1:02:40 > 1:02:43Somalia should have been a big, big red flag

1:02:43 > 1:02:45that when you pour a lot of resources into a place,

1:02:45 > 1:02:46where you have people

1:02:46 > 1:02:48who are very committed to fighting over political ends,

1:02:48 > 1:02:50you're going to get played into that.

1:02:50 > 1:02:54If you start bringing in food, they're going to eat the food.

1:02:54 > 1:02:56They're going to decide who gets the food.

1:02:56 > 1:02:59They are going to use you to feed their troops.

1:03:06 > 1:03:09The aid agencies decided it was time to stop the militia

1:03:09 > 1:03:12that was stopping them from feeding the starving.

1:03:14 > 1:03:18My analysis then was that this was anarchy, chaos.

1:03:22 > 1:03:27I became very emotive about the situation in Somalia

1:03:27 > 1:03:30and so, you know, I promoted the view that

1:03:30 > 1:03:35a military intervention by the outside was a good idea,

1:03:35 > 1:03:39and, you know, I persuaded other people in Oxfam to do that.

1:03:39 > 1:03:43And, in fact, Oxfam, in a very rare move, you know,

1:03:43 > 1:03:46actually did call for military intervention.

1:03:49 > 1:03:52Most aid agencies now joined together to demand

1:03:52 > 1:03:55the military force to protect the aid convoys,

1:03:55 > 1:03:58and lobbied the US Government to lead it.

1:03:58 > 1:04:00PROTESTER: Send the troops now!

1:04:00 > 1:04:04'Public pressure is growing on the White House to act swiftly.'

1:04:04 > 1:04:05I can't give you a specific time,

1:04:05 > 1:04:08but I think I've used the phrase, "as quickly as possible,

1:04:08 > 1:04:11"as soon as possible, and as fast as possible" about 12 times already.

1:04:16 > 1:04:19Bernard Kouchner, now a minister in the French Government,

1:04:19 > 1:04:21also backed their calls.

1:04:23 > 1:04:26I was a witness, I was not reading the newspaper, I was there,

1:04:26 > 1:04:28so I saw the people dying.

1:04:28 > 1:04:30I saw the famine.

1:04:30 > 1:04:34Starvation was killing the young children.

1:04:34 > 1:04:37And all the organisations, but the Red Cross,

1:04:37 > 1:04:41all the organisations asked for protection,

1:04:41 > 1:04:45so we were just answering to their demand.

1:04:51 > 1:04:55Not everyone was convinced by the need for intervention.

1:04:56 > 1:04:59Some argued that only further negotiations could ease the problem.

1:05:00 > 1:05:02Even at that time,

1:05:02 > 1:05:07there were political processes in Somalia whereby the armed factions

1:05:07 > 1:05:10were beginning to deal with one another,

1:05:10 > 1:05:13to negotiate with one another,

1:05:13 > 1:05:17and it was rather disturbing to see that, precisely at that moment,

1:05:17 > 1:05:21that a number of international agencies

1:05:21 > 1:05:25were beating the drums for an international military intervention.

1:05:25 > 1:05:27- ARCHIVE:- 'Our mission is essentially a peaceful one.'

1:05:29 > 1:05:32MUSIC: "Lithium" by Nirvana

1:05:36 > 1:05:39# I'm so happy

1:05:39 > 1:05:42# Cos today I found my friends

1:05:42 > 1:05:44# They're in my head... #

1:05:44 > 1:05:48The people of Somalia, especially the children of Somalia,

1:05:48 > 1:05:49need our help.

1:05:49 > 1:05:53We're able to ease their suffering. We must help them live.

1:05:53 > 1:05:58We must give them hope. America must act.

1:05:58 > 1:06:00# ..Yeah-eh-eh, yeah

1:06:01 > 1:06:05# Yeah-eh-eh yeah-eh

1:06:05 > 1:06:07# Yeah-eh-eh, yeah

1:06:09 > 1:06:13# Yeah-eh-eh yeah-eh

1:06:13 > 1:06:16# Yeah-eh-eh, yeah... #

1:06:16 > 1:06:21My anti-American reflex was not enough to forgive

1:06:21 > 1:06:24that they we're coming for the benefit of the people.

1:06:24 > 1:06:28I know that it is a big circus and it looks like a film,

1:06:28 > 1:06:30but it was a film.

1:06:30 > 1:06:34So that the way they intervene was not the French way, different style.

1:06:34 > 1:06:39But when they came, I was happy for the people.

1:06:40 > 1:06:43- REPORTER:- 'Operation Restore Hope, the first time the UN has authorised

1:06:43 > 1:06:45'military intervention

1:06:45 > 1:06:47'for solely humanitarian purposes, is under way.'

1:06:47 > 1:06:49# ..And just maybe

1:06:49 > 1:06:51# I'm to blame for all I've heard... #

1:06:51 > 1:06:52This, um...

1:06:52 > 1:06:58spectacular arrival of armed forces

1:06:58 > 1:07:00was somewhat ridiculous.

1:07:00 > 1:07:02- REPORTER:- 'Ahead of the main landing,

1:07:02 > 1:07:04'a crack team of US Navy Seals

1:07:04 > 1:07:07'trained to work behind the lines have come ashore to find

1:07:07 > 1:07:10'nothing more hostile than the glare of press cameras.'

1:07:10 > 1:07:15You know, crawling on the ground with their make-up,

1:07:15 > 1:07:20combat make-up on their faces while they were surrounded by journalists

1:07:20 > 1:07:22in short pants and with their cameras,

1:07:22 > 1:07:25smoking their cigarettes and taking photos.

1:07:25 > 1:07:29I mean, this was a show. It was an incredible show.

1:07:30 > 1:07:31SOLDIER: On your face!

1:07:31 > 1:07:33Hands out! Hands out!

1:07:34 > 1:07:38- REPORTER:- 'And then comes the job of winning hearts and minds.

1:07:38 > 1:07:40'It wasn't a good start.

1:07:40 > 1:07:44'On the ground are men whose job it has been to guard the hangars,

1:07:44 > 1:07:47'treated in what can only be described a humiliating manner.'

1:08:01 > 1:08:03Almost from the beginning,

1:08:03 > 1:08:06the way the whole thing was stage-managed and filmed,

1:08:06 > 1:08:12you know, so that it looked like something from a war movie,

1:08:12 > 1:08:15began to sound alarm bells in my head,

1:08:15 > 1:08:18and the sort of contempt with which Somalis were treated.

1:08:18 > 1:08:21And, of course, it did get worse and worse and worse.

1:08:23 > 1:08:25How you doin' ma?

1:08:26 > 1:08:29This is your baby boy in Somalia, how you doing?

1:08:30 > 1:08:31HE LAUGHS

1:08:31 > 1:08:33With great fanfare,

1:08:33 > 1:08:37the American troops began their operation to protect the food aid.

1:08:37 > 1:08:41For the world's media, America had ended the famine.

1:08:42 > 1:08:45- REPORTER:- 'The warehouses, so often plundered by gunmen in the past,

1:08:45 > 1:08:49'are filling up with the Marines supervising every new shipment.'

1:08:49 > 1:08:51Makes you feel good, I guess.

1:08:51 > 1:08:52I mean, everybody wants to feel wanted

1:08:52 > 1:08:54and we're definitely wanted here.

1:08:54 > 1:08:57'The next and biggest stage of this international crusade

1:08:57 > 1:09:01'set out today for the remote interior, hoping to bring peace

1:09:01 > 1:09:04'and food to the forgotten in time for Christmas.'

1:09:07 > 1:09:09The famine did subside,

1:09:09 > 1:09:12but critics argued it had little to do with the intervention.

1:09:14 > 1:09:18It was fairly clear that the crisis

1:09:18 > 1:09:20was not the crisis that was being presented.

1:09:22 > 1:09:26In fact if anything things, conditions were improving

1:09:26 > 1:09:28at the time of the American arrival.

1:09:30 > 1:09:35The death rates were coming down, food prices were coming down.

1:09:35 > 1:09:39Yes, Somalia was still a massive mess,

1:09:39 > 1:09:43but it wasn't getting worse, it wasn't actually out of control.

1:09:49 > 1:09:52INTERVIEWER: Lot of people have said they felt the famine would have just

1:09:52 > 1:09:54died down without the intervention.

1:09:54 > 1:09:56This is completely untrue,

1:09:56 > 1:09:59and this is not a good reason to let them die.

1:09:59 > 1:10:02Even if you can save one person, it's enough.

1:10:05 > 1:10:07Negationists are always the same.

1:10:11 > 1:10:15Some of the figures that were put forward in justification

1:10:15 > 1:10:17of this intervention were actually cooked up.

1:10:17 > 1:10:21The statistics for death rates, the figures for the amount of food

1:10:21 > 1:10:24that was being looted - there was a misrepresentation

1:10:24 > 1:10:26to try and make it seem a lot worse

1:10:26 > 1:10:29and a lot more hopeless than it actually was.

1:10:34 > 1:10:38INTERVIEWER: What they would say about Somalia would be that...

1:10:38 > 1:10:42Who are these people saying something about Somalia?

1:10:42 > 1:10:44They have never been there!

1:10:44 > 1:10:47It was exactly what happened in Rwanda.

1:10:47 > 1:10:49Don't make me crazy, please.

1:10:54 > 1:10:56These people are crooks.

1:10:58 > 1:11:00What...

1:11:00 > 1:11:05In Somalia, who was the one, having been there...

1:11:05 > 1:11:08discovering that they were in good health? Who are they?

1:11:10 > 1:11:11Nobody, nobody, nobody.

1:11:16 > 1:11:20The famine, almost by the time I started launching,

1:11:20 > 1:11:23you know, the Famine Relief operations in Oxfam,

1:11:23 > 1:11:26it was already practically over.

1:11:26 > 1:11:28So, I mean, it was a lesson for me.

1:11:28 > 1:11:33You know, I made a complete misreading of the situation.

1:11:33 > 1:11:38I did so, you know, because I was very affected by the situation.

1:11:40 > 1:11:44EXPLOSIONS AND GUNFIRE

1:11:44 > 1:11:47- REPORTER:- 'In Somalia, American Marines have launched an attack

1:11:47 > 1:11:49'on Somali gunmen in a district of Mogadishu.'

1:11:51 > 1:11:53Within weeks of landing,

1:11:53 > 1:11:56the Americans had become embroiled in a complex civil war.

1:11:58 > 1:12:00What had begun as a mission to deliver food,

1:12:00 > 1:12:03turned into a war to remake Somalia.

1:12:06 > 1:12:08Institutions have a purpose,

1:12:08 > 1:12:11and the purpose of a military is to fight, you know,

1:12:11 > 1:12:14and particularly if that's what you're really good at.

1:12:14 > 1:12:18So, in the end, you know, the American mission in Somalia shifted.

1:12:19 > 1:12:21The famine was forgotten,

1:12:21 > 1:12:25it was about creating that new world order in Somalia.

1:12:26 > 1:12:30It has become essential that we restore law and order

1:12:30 > 1:12:35if the people of Somalia are to resume their movement toward

1:12:35 > 1:12:41political representative government, rehabilitation and redevelopment,

1:12:41 > 1:12:45and putting security in their own hands.

1:12:48 > 1:12:52MUSIC: "Kothbiro" by Ayub Ogada

1:13:02 > 1:13:05The American catchphrase became "Shoot To Feed".

1:13:09 > 1:13:11"Shoot To Feed" was the motto,

1:13:11 > 1:13:18and my...I still feel angry when I think of it,

1:13:18 > 1:13:24because, I mean, we feed to make people live, not to make people die.

1:13:24 > 1:13:27- REPORTER:- 'The crowd of demonstrators, who gathered outside

1:13:27 > 1:13:29'UN Headquarters this morning,

1:13:29 > 1:13:31'certainly came face to face with a hard line.'

1:13:31 > 1:13:33GUNFIRE

1:13:38 > 1:13:42They decided to shoot at civilian demonstrators

1:13:42 > 1:13:47in order to restore law and order, and to distribute food.

1:13:47 > 1:13:52And, as a result, they killed hundreds and hundreds of people

1:13:52 > 1:13:55in the name of humanitarian principles,

1:13:55 > 1:13:57in the name of saving lives.

1:13:57 > 1:14:00It's an absolutely incredible situation.

1:14:03 > 1:14:06The American mission ended with the downing of

1:14:06 > 1:14:08two Black Hawk helicopters,

1:14:08 > 1:14:11leading to the deaths of 18 American soldiers

1:14:11 > 1:14:12and hundreds of Somalis.

1:14:14 > 1:14:18- REPORTER:- 'Despite the presence of 28,000 UN troops in the country,

1:14:18 > 1:14:21'many of Mogadishu's streets have returned to the lawless state

1:14:21 > 1:14:23'they were in before UN Peacekeepers arrived last year.'

1:14:27 > 1:14:30The number one lesson of Somalia was

1:14:30 > 1:14:33the humanitarians can call on the cavalry,

1:14:33 > 1:14:35but when the cavalry arrives,

1:14:35 > 1:14:38the cavalry are going to follow their own orders,

1:14:38 > 1:14:41their own order of battle throughout,

1:14:41 > 1:14:44and whatever the humanitarians say is pretty much irrelevant.

1:14:46 > 1:14:49We kind of felt that the world, you know,

1:14:49 > 1:14:52could be changed by using military force.

1:14:52 > 1:14:58We had armed ourselves, in a sense, you know, excited young boys.

1:14:58 > 1:15:02We'd armed ourselves to protect humanitarianism,

1:15:02 > 1:15:07so the embarrassment is to have gone with that, got excited about it,

1:15:07 > 1:15:12and then, afterwards, to realise how wrong we were,

1:15:12 > 1:15:14and that we had, somehow,

1:15:14 > 1:15:17let the tiger, you know, out of the cage.

1:15:29 > 1:15:35The real tragedy of Somalia was that it was a humanitarian involvement

1:15:35 > 1:15:38that went wrong and gave a bad name to humanitarian intervention.

1:15:44 > 1:15:48So when one was really needed in the Rwanda genocide,

1:15:48 > 1:15:51when the world should have intervened, it didn't.

1:15:54 > 1:15:56- REPORTER:- 'The victims, all of them Tutsis,

1:15:56 > 1:15:59'had gone to the church in search of sanctuary.

1:15:59 > 1:16:02Instead, the house of God became a killing ground.'

1:16:03 > 1:16:06We kind of lurched from a failure in Somalia

1:16:06 > 1:16:08to, "We don't want to know," in Rwanda.

1:16:10 > 1:16:13We got it wrong in both cases.

1:16:22 > 1:16:27100 days after it began, the Rwandan genocide finally ended

1:16:27 > 1:16:30when the rebel Tutsi army overthrew the Hutu government that was

1:16:30 > 1:16:32responsible for the massacres.

1:16:41 > 1:16:45Nearly two million Hutus now streamed out of Rwanda

1:16:45 > 1:16:48and sought sanctuary in neighbouring countries.

1:17:06 > 1:17:09We were the first people to see the refugees

1:17:09 > 1:17:11coming across the border and they were

1:17:11 > 1:17:14coming into a different country, not knowing where they were going.

1:17:14 > 1:17:16All you could hear was their bare feet and their flip-flops.

1:17:16 > 1:17:21Former BBC trainer Samantha Bolton was one year into her first

1:17:21 > 1:17:23foreign posting for MSF.

1:17:26 > 1:17:28And then they started to pour in.

1:17:28 > 1:17:31I mean it was just like seeping in every single little alley,

1:17:31 > 1:17:33every single road, and then we were like,

1:17:33 > 1:17:35"Oh, my God, where are they going to go?"

1:17:35 > 1:17:37I mean basically it's like hell on earth.

1:17:37 > 1:17:38It's volcanic rock everywhere.

1:17:38 > 1:17:41Just look at this. I just picked these rocks up.

1:17:41 > 1:17:44I mean it's just totally hard. You can't dig latrines.

1:17:44 > 1:17:47You can't find water here. You can't dig graves.

1:17:47 > 1:17:50There's no shelter. There's no food. There's just nothing.

1:17:50 > 1:17:52I'm a geologist originally

1:17:52 > 1:17:56and so this area was like a lava field. This lava was all

1:17:56 > 1:18:03rucked up, and rough, and razor sharp, and people were camping.

1:18:03 > 1:18:07Camping's the wrong word. They were sleeping on these bare rocks.

1:18:11 > 1:18:14In the space of a week, almost a million people descended on

1:18:14 > 1:18:16the border town of Goma

1:18:16 > 1:18:18in neighbouring Democratic Republic of Congo.

1:18:20 > 1:18:23With no water or sanitation, a cholera epidemic broke out.

1:18:26 > 1:18:28People started to die.

1:18:28 > 1:18:31And they died. Cholera, they died and died.

1:18:31 > 1:18:35I mean people were piled up in the streets.

1:18:35 > 1:18:38They were piled up outside the front door of our office.

1:18:40 > 1:18:44REPORTER: 'Every dawn here brings a day more dreadful than the last.

1:18:44 > 1:18:46'Some, who lay down to sleep last night,

1:18:46 > 1:18:48'did not make it through to this morning.

1:18:50 > 1:18:53'If this catastrophic cholera epidemic is to be contained,

1:18:53 > 1:18:55'then clean water's the top priority.'

1:18:55 > 1:18:58The stench of death was, you know, kind of stuck in your nostrils

1:18:58 > 1:19:01for days afterwards. You couldn't get rid of it.

1:19:03 > 1:19:07We could save one or two people, it would take us a couple of hours

1:19:07 > 1:19:10to revive them from the intense dehydration of cholera,

1:19:10 > 1:19:14but there were thousands of other people dying.

1:19:14 > 1:19:18There were people tugging on your pants asking you to save them.

1:19:25 > 1:19:27REPORTER: 'The world seems to be waking up to

1:19:27 > 1:19:29'the plight of Rwanda's refugees,

1:19:29 > 1:19:32'bringing in everything from food to field hospitals

1:19:32 > 1:19:34'and water purification equipment.'

1:19:36 > 1:19:39Today, I have ordered an immediate massive increase

1:19:39 > 1:19:42in our efforts in the region, in support of an appeal

1:19:42 > 1:19:45from the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees.

1:19:47 > 1:19:50An enormous international response succeeded in stopping

1:19:50 > 1:19:52the cholera epidemic in its tracks.

1:19:55 > 1:19:58But Rwanda, the country the refugees had come from,

1:19:58 > 1:20:01was receiving only a fraction of the aid.

1:20:04 > 1:20:07The international humanitarian response

1:20:07 > 1:20:10made the refugee crisis in Goma

1:20:10 > 1:20:12into the main recipient of media attention,

1:20:12 > 1:20:19policy attention and assistance, and so Rwanda itself was ravaged.

1:20:19 > 1:20:24And we had the Rwandese Patriotic Front coming to power in

1:20:24 > 1:20:29a wasteland where there was nothing. And all the attention was going to

1:20:29 > 1:20:35a refugee population that actually included substantial numbers

1:20:35 > 1:20:38of those who were responsible for the genocide in the first place.

1:20:42 > 1:20:45It wasn't long before the Hutu leadership,

1:20:45 > 1:20:48that had orchestrated the genocide in Rwanda,

1:20:48 > 1:20:51began to assert itself inside the refugee camps.

1:20:53 > 1:20:56REPORTER: '30,000 ex-government troops live in this camp,

1:20:56 > 1:20:58'mingling with the refugees,

1:20:58 > 1:21:01'receiving food from the international aid agencies.

1:21:01 > 1:21:02'They hide from the cameras

1:21:02 > 1:21:04'and often they don't wear their uniforms.

1:21:04 > 1:21:08'With their black combat boots, you can always tell who they are.'

1:21:15 > 1:21:17Every morning I go to one of the camps

1:21:17 > 1:21:21and I have to get permission for every single thing

1:21:21 > 1:21:24that I want to do in the camp from a camp committee.

1:21:24 > 1:21:26And the head of the camp committee was the previous

1:21:26 > 1:21:27Mayor of Kigali,

1:21:27 > 1:21:34who was fingered as one of the worst perpetrators of the genocide

1:21:34 > 1:21:36in the capital in 1994.

1:21:36 > 1:21:41And that's my main interlocutor who's telling me who I can hire,

1:21:41 > 1:21:45who is appointed to committee to distribute the food on my behalf.

1:21:45 > 1:21:47This is ridiculous.

1:21:49 > 1:21:53We started to wonder about our household staff and all

1:21:53 > 1:21:56the staff working for us. How many of them had blood on their hands?

1:21:56 > 1:21:59How many had been involved in this terrible killing?

1:21:59 > 1:22:03Was our cook, you know, who was cooking our food every night,

1:22:03 > 1:22:05did he have blood on his hands?

1:22:05 > 1:22:10And there was a horrible atmosphere of suspicion at that time.

1:22:13 > 1:22:15REPORTER: 'The guilty men

1:22:15 > 1:22:18'of Rwanda's killing fields have not gone away.

1:22:18 > 1:22:20'Their grip on power is tenacious.

1:22:20 > 1:22:23'It is through them that food aid has to be distributed,

1:22:23 > 1:22:25'and in Goma food is power.'

1:22:25 > 1:22:29With their control of the camps almost total,

1:22:29 > 1:22:34the Hutu militia, the Interhamwe, were using aid money to buy weapons,

1:22:34 > 1:22:36and plotting their takeover of Rwanda.

1:22:38 > 1:22:41The Interhamwe was taxing people in the camps.

1:22:41 > 1:22:45They were charging the humanitarian organisations to rent

1:22:45 > 1:22:47the materials that they had looted.

1:22:47 > 1:22:50They were taking a percentage of all food aid that was distributed,

1:22:50 > 1:22:54stockpiling it and feeding their armies with it.

1:22:54 > 1:22:56The camps were being used as a rear base.

1:22:56 > 1:22:59There was military training going on in the camps.

1:22:59 > 1:23:02There were sabotage missions.

1:23:02 > 1:23:04They were launching attacks from the camps

1:23:04 > 1:23:07and going and killing genocide survivors inside Rwanda,

1:23:07 > 1:23:12sabotaging infrastructure to try to undermine.

1:23:12 > 1:23:16So the camps were really being used as a military sanctuary by these

1:23:16 > 1:23:20people and we were contributing to it as an aid community.

1:23:20 > 1:23:22It was the aid, and only the aid,

1:23:22 > 1:23:26that was sustaining these genocidaire

1:23:26 > 1:23:28in their positions of power.

1:23:51 > 1:23:53While all of this was going on,

1:23:53 > 1:23:55I was coming back from these trips over there

1:23:55 > 1:23:58and my head was sort of exploding trying to get my mind around it.

1:23:58 > 1:24:01I remember talking about this at family gatherings and stuff,

1:24:01 > 1:24:03when my mother at one point said, "I think I'm figuring out

1:24:03 > 1:24:06"why it is that it's so hard to assimilate what you're saying."

1:24:06 > 1:24:09She said, "I see that there's this suffering out there,

1:24:09 > 1:24:11"and I see these stories,

1:24:11 > 1:24:14"and I think these organisations know what they're doing.

1:24:14 > 1:24:17"They are my proxy."

1:24:17 > 1:24:20"And so if I contribute to them,

1:24:20 > 1:24:22"they'll figure out this complex thing that I,

1:24:22 > 1:24:24"going about my business and my life,

1:24:24 > 1:24:26"don't quite know how to figure out.

1:24:26 > 1:24:28"And if you're now telling me

1:24:28 > 1:24:33"that they're actually just part of the problem,

1:24:33 > 1:24:36"or that there's a large element of the way that they function

1:24:36 > 1:24:39"that sustains the problem rather than solving it,

1:24:39 > 1:24:44"I'm left in a position of greater helplessness."

1:24:44 > 1:24:48We sort of defend against the knowledge that our solution

1:24:48 > 1:24:52is so very imperfect and that the humanitarian response really

1:24:52 > 1:24:56isn't necessarily serving the end it wishes to and claims to,

1:24:56 > 1:24:59because it leaves us without a good answer and we want one.

1:25:13 > 1:25:17As concern within MSF France grew at the harmful effect their aid

1:25:17 > 1:25:21was having, some aid workers began questioning their very presence

1:25:21 > 1:25:22in the camps.

1:25:23 > 1:25:27The ethical dilemma that confronted us is, you know,

1:25:27 > 1:25:29what is our primary duty?

1:25:29 > 1:25:32Is it our duty to stay, no matter what,

1:25:32 > 1:25:37to be able to help those bona fide refugees who really need our help?

1:25:37 > 1:25:40Or do we say, "No, this is unacceptable. We cannot allow

1:25:40 > 1:25:44"our aid to be the source of further suffering for these people."

1:25:45 > 1:25:49MSF France said, "No, we have to make a decision now

1:25:49 > 1:25:52"because this has gone on long enough.

1:25:52 > 1:25:54"We all accept that this is what's going on,

1:25:54 > 1:25:56"and now is the time to leave."

1:26:01 > 1:26:06INTERVIEWER: And how did the other aid agencies who stayed,

1:26:06 > 1:26:09which is most of them, how did they react to your decision?

1:26:09 > 1:26:12- What did they say to you? - Oh, they didn't like it at all.

1:26:12 > 1:26:14Oh, because it very much put them on the moral back foot,

1:26:14 > 1:26:17then they had to justify their position

1:26:17 > 1:26:18and justify why they were staying.

1:26:20 > 1:26:23There was even an interview with somebody who said,

1:26:23 > 1:26:27"Oh, no, it's just that MSF want to go home to have Christmas at home."

1:26:27 > 1:26:29Very dismissive, very undermining.

1:26:29 > 1:26:31"Oh, you're just moral grandstanding."

1:26:31 > 1:26:36You know, and a lot of them said, "It's easier to leave

1:26:36 > 1:26:41"than it is to stay and to try to, you know, resolve the situation."

1:26:41 > 1:26:44But that comes from people who have never left.

1:26:44 > 1:26:46Because I can tell you, it is not easy to leave.

1:26:53 > 1:26:55I thought

1:26:55 > 1:26:57a deliberate withdrawal of humanitarian assistance from

1:26:57 > 1:27:03a crisis was a cruel and uncreative way to deal with this moral dilemma.

1:27:03 > 1:27:05It's a very dangerous path that you take

1:27:05 > 1:27:09when you start taking a moral stance when you are in a war

1:27:09 > 1:27:12start taking part - who are the good ones, who are the bad ones?

1:27:12 > 1:27:17We are not in the job of discerning victims from villains,

1:27:17 > 1:27:21discerning who's deserving and undeserving refugees.

1:27:21 > 1:27:25Anyone who's in a situation of extremis deserves

1:27:25 > 1:27:29humanitarian assistance. We have a duty to respond.

1:27:29 > 1:27:33Everybody is receiving food, including the soldiers.

1:27:33 > 1:27:37You know, when they came, we took them to be refugees.

1:27:37 > 1:27:40It's morally and ethically difficult to accept that these people

1:27:40 > 1:27:44are getting stronger, partially through humanitarian aid,

1:27:44 > 1:27:47and we don't know how they are going to use their power in the future.

1:27:47 > 1:27:50INTERVIEWER: The accusation was that by being there,

1:27:50 > 1:27:53agencies were feeding killers and feeding the war.

1:27:53 > 1:27:56Oh, no, be careful, you are feeding alleged killers

1:27:56 > 1:27:59and if you believe in the system in which people are innocent

1:27:59 > 1:28:01until proven guilty, you know, that's really difficult.

1:28:01 > 1:28:04"I think you're a killer, therefore I'm not going to feed you.

1:28:04 > 1:28:07"How do I think you're a killer? Well, somebody told me."

1:28:07 > 1:28:11What's the alternative?

1:28:11 > 1:28:16If you leave, you're then condemning thousands of people, potentially,

1:28:16 > 1:28:20to death through starvation to salve your moral conscience,

1:28:20 > 1:28:25and that sounded to me like a bad trade-off.

1:28:26 > 1:28:28INTERVIEWER: Didn't people say to you,

1:28:28 > 1:28:30"Sure, there are genocidaire here,

1:28:30 > 1:28:35"but 95% of people are women and children and they're not killers.

1:28:35 > 1:28:37"Why should we punish the innocent

1:28:37 > 1:28:39"because there are guilty among them?"

1:28:39 > 1:28:4095% of the women and children

1:28:40 > 1:28:43in that area don't die when there aren't white people there.

1:28:43 > 1:28:47They live. The same way that they would otherwise.

1:28:47 > 1:28:51It's nuts to think that it requires humanitarians for people to live.

1:28:54 > 1:28:59The notion that if we leave they will die is false.

1:28:59 > 1:29:01It's false.

1:29:01 > 1:29:04Aid is not the be all and end all that many aid organisations

1:29:04 > 1:29:08pretend it is. We are not necessarily what is standing between

1:29:08 > 1:29:11life and death for these people.

1:29:17 > 1:29:21In the end, MSF France's decision to leave had little effect.

1:29:21 > 1:29:24Other agencies took over their work.

1:29:25 > 1:29:28Aid money continued to flow to the Hutu leadership

1:29:28 > 1:29:31which continued its regular attacks into Rwanda.

1:29:36 > 1:29:41In late 1996, the Tutsi-led Rwandan army crossed the border

1:29:41 > 1:29:43and destroyed the camps once and for all.

1:29:43 > 1:29:45GUNFIRE AND EXPLOSIONS

1:29:52 > 1:29:56The ultimate consequences of the camps was the worst possible

1:29:56 > 1:30:00outcome for the refugees - that the camps were attacked.

1:30:00 > 1:30:03So the aid organisations that had come in and refused to leave,

1:30:03 > 1:30:07and really piled so much criticism on MSF when we left, saying,

1:30:07 > 1:30:09"You're taking the high moral ground,

1:30:09 > 1:30:12"how can you abandon these refugees? They are innocent.

1:30:12 > 1:30:14"They have done nothing."

1:30:14 > 1:30:18Ultimately, when the camps were attacked, the NGOs,

1:30:18 > 1:30:21those same ones, were the ones to board the plane and leave the camps,

1:30:21 > 1:30:25and they were the ones ultimately to leave the refugees to their fate.

1:30:25 > 1:30:27Having to leave the Goma region,

1:30:27 > 1:30:30it was the most difficult decision I've ever made in my life.

1:30:30 > 1:30:33We saw hundreds and hundreds of refugees coming up the street

1:30:33 > 1:30:36as we were pulling out and, you know, it's very

1:30:36 > 1:30:39upsetting because as an aid worker you don't want to leave a situation

1:30:39 > 1:30:42like that, but from a security point of view you have no option.

1:30:42 > 1:30:44REPORTER: 'The prognosis is grim.

1:30:44 > 1:30:47'The region sits on the threshold of a humanitarian catastrophe that

1:30:47 > 1:30:50'aid workers believe will eclipse

1:30:50 > 1:30:52'even that of the refugee exodus of 1994.'

1:30:57 > 1:31:00Fiona Terry's decision to lead the walkout from the Goma camps

1:31:00 > 1:31:03challenged the deeply held belief that there is always

1:31:03 > 1:31:05a moral imperative to help.

1:31:08 > 1:31:11INTERVIEWER: You see a disaster on television,

1:31:11 > 1:31:15how can it ever be right not to do something?

1:31:15 > 1:31:19Well, because if you don't focus just on that starving child,

1:31:19 > 1:31:23which of course is the most appalling thing to see,

1:31:23 > 1:31:25but if you maybe look at the picture a little bit broader,

1:31:25 > 1:31:29and if you see that that child has a gun to its head,

1:31:29 > 1:31:33if you see that that child has been intentionally starved

1:31:33 > 1:31:36in order to attract your aid money, which is actually not going to go

1:31:36 > 1:31:39in the mouth of that child, but is actually going to go

1:31:39 > 1:31:43in the pocket of the person with the gun, and is potentially

1:31:43 > 1:31:47going to end up, if it's successful in this one case, end up with dozens

1:31:47 > 1:31:49MORE children in that situation,

1:31:49 > 1:31:51well, then, there's absolutely no way.

1:31:53 > 1:31:57You need to be able to take that very hard last step to say,

1:31:57 > 1:32:01"If we do this, it's actually going to cause more harm in the long run

1:32:01 > 1:32:03"and we have to say no."

1:32:04 > 1:32:06You have to let them die.

1:32:06 > 1:32:07Yes.

1:32:07 > 1:32:11In Goma, aid agencies had been powerless in the face of

1:32:11 > 1:32:15a ruthless adversary determined to use aid for its own goals.

1:32:17 > 1:32:21Many of them would now turn, once again, to the one institution

1:32:21 > 1:32:25with the power to impose its will on the world, the military.

1:32:32 > 1:32:36REPORTER: 'Snipers are the fear now of those ethnic Albanian villages

1:32:36 > 1:32:39'still outside the control of the security forces.'

1:32:40 > 1:32:43In early 1998, the Balkans, which for years had been riven

1:32:43 > 1:32:46by interethnic conflict, erupted once again.

1:32:48 > 1:32:52This time it was between Kosovar Albanians seeking

1:32:52 > 1:32:57independence from Serbia, and Serb forces determined to stop them.

1:32:57 > 1:33:01'This was not an act of war, it was plain, cold murder.'

1:33:01 > 1:33:04With the Serbs deemed the main culprits,

1:33:04 > 1:33:07Western governments threatened them with military intervention.

1:33:08 > 1:33:12President Milosevic would be making a big mistake

1:33:12 > 1:33:14if he did not recognise

1:33:14 > 1:33:18the revulsion across Europe at this latest atrocity.

1:33:18 > 1:33:22He's jeopardised Kosovo's future and brought YOU more war.

1:33:22 > 1:33:25NATO is now ready to act.

1:33:25 > 1:33:29Western leaders argued there were humanitarian justifications

1:33:29 > 1:33:34for war, and they were supported by many of the aid agencies.

1:33:34 > 1:33:42We did feel that it was right to support that intervention.

1:33:42 > 1:33:46I mean in fact the decision was not taken in consultation with Oxfam

1:33:46 > 1:33:50or anything like that, but when it happened we didn't oppose it.

1:33:50 > 1:33:55To those who say the aim of military strikes is not clear,

1:33:55 > 1:33:57I say it is crystal clear.

1:33:57 > 1:34:01These are our fellow human beings.

1:34:01 > 1:34:07For the sake of humanity, I ask your support in seeing it through.

1:34:07 > 1:34:10This is simply the right thing to do.

1:34:23 > 1:34:25INTERVIEWER: What did you think when you saw

1:34:25 > 1:34:28NATO bombs start to rain down on Belgrade?

1:34:31 > 1:34:32Um...

1:34:34 > 1:34:39That it may be the beginning of the end of this crisis,

1:34:39 > 1:34:41because they...

1:34:41 > 1:34:44I'm tempted to say, they've got it coming to them.

1:34:50 > 1:34:53Of course when it actually happened, you know,

1:34:53 > 1:34:57we were horrified by the consequences.

1:34:57 > 1:34:59I mean it was fairly predictable

1:34:59 > 1:35:03but these things are still a shock when they actually happen.

1:35:03 > 1:35:07The other aspect of it that was a shock was when NATO started

1:35:07 > 1:35:11bombing Belgrade, because we actually had an office in Belgrade.

1:35:12 > 1:35:16NATO actually managed to bomb the flat in which one of our staff,

1:35:16 > 1:35:18a disabled woman, was living.

1:35:27 > 1:35:28The NATO campaign

1:35:28 > 1:35:31precipitated an exodus of thousands of Kosovan refugees

1:35:31 > 1:35:35escaping Serb ethnic cleansing and, now, NATO bombs.

1:35:41 > 1:35:44They headed for the Kosovan border with Macedonia and Albania.

1:35:47 > 1:35:50Normally, the UN and aid agencies would have been there

1:35:50 > 1:35:51to meet them.

1:35:54 > 1:35:58This time, NATO decided its soldiers, not aid workers,

1:35:58 > 1:36:01would be in charge of humanitarian operations,

1:36:01 > 1:36:05and they began building massive refugee camps to house them.

1:36:07 > 1:36:10My brigade built and ran these refugee camps.

1:36:10 > 1:36:11I just said to them, you know,

1:36:11 > 1:36:14"Put away your weapons, put away your body armour,

1:36:14 > 1:36:17"take off your steel helmets, this is what we're going to do."

1:36:19 > 1:36:22There's no doubt that NATO wants to use this as a way of saying

1:36:22 > 1:36:25to the world that we're doing the right thing here.

1:36:28 > 1:36:35For me, in Kosovo it was clearly a necessity for NATO to be seen

1:36:35 > 1:36:40doing what people perceive as being humanitarian actions,

1:36:40 > 1:36:44so it was very important that it was the British

1:36:44 > 1:36:49and German armies being seen putting up tents and giving medical care.

1:36:49 > 1:36:52Because don't forget the whole justification of that invasion

1:36:52 > 1:36:56was about, we have to do this for humanitarian reasons,

1:36:56 > 1:36:59so what the public back home needs to see

1:36:59 > 1:37:02is soldiers being humanitarians.

1:37:23 > 1:37:25The whole thing breaks over that Easter weekend.

1:37:25 > 1:37:28The buses that were being used to take people to work

1:37:28 > 1:37:30in the morning and the children to school in Skopje,

1:37:30 > 1:37:33were then going in the evening to pick up people from the border

1:37:33 > 1:37:35and bring them to these camps.

1:37:44 > 1:37:47They arrive in packets of 5, 100 people in a bus,

1:37:47 > 1:37:50crammed into these buses that would normally seat 30.

1:37:50 > 1:37:53Every ten minutes there's another five buses arriving

1:37:53 > 1:37:55and disgorging their loads of people.

1:37:58 > 1:38:00You know, we just have to get on with it.

1:38:12 > 1:38:15NATO now invited the aid agencies to come and work with them

1:38:15 > 1:38:17inside the camps.

1:38:20 > 1:38:25There was a real dilemma of how much we dare be seen to be working

1:38:25 > 1:38:27closely with British military.

1:38:28 > 1:38:32On the ground, there are huge numbers of people

1:38:32 > 1:38:34who are at serious risk

1:38:34 > 1:38:38of major outbreaks of illness if we can't get the latrines dug,

1:38:38 > 1:38:42and the British squaddies have got the diggers to do it.

1:38:42 > 1:38:45I'm sort of forced to say, "Oh, that's great, you are helping us."

1:38:45 > 1:38:49You know, we've never had soldiers to dig holes for us before

1:38:49 > 1:38:52and put up a water tank and so on, so that, you know,

1:38:52 > 1:38:55I have to say that that is good.

1:38:55 > 1:39:00And then at the back of my mind is a thought, "Well, you know,

1:39:00 > 1:39:04"this is one of the warring parties. If this had been in Africa

1:39:04 > 1:39:06"I would have been saying to myself

1:39:06 > 1:39:08"keep away from these people, you know,

1:39:08 > 1:39:12"don't even talk to them let alone have them digging holes for you."

1:39:22 > 1:39:26REPORTER: 'Every day the refugees look up to see NATO warplanes

1:39:26 > 1:39:30'in the skies above on their way to bomb the Serbs across the border.'

1:39:32 > 1:39:34As the war progressed,

1:39:34 > 1:39:39strains developed between the aid agencies and the military,

1:39:39 > 1:39:41as NATO's humanitarian war began to have

1:39:41 > 1:39:44some very non-humanitarian consequences.

1:39:47 > 1:39:52The pilot reported at the time that he was attacking a military convoy.

1:39:52 > 1:39:55REPORTER: 'It was perhaps the worst error of the bombing so far.

1:39:55 > 1:39:58'Most of the dead were burned in the fire that followed.'

1:39:58 > 1:40:03The NATO bomb destroyed the lead vehicle,

1:40:03 > 1:40:07which we now believe to have been a civilian vehicle.

1:40:07 > 1:40:12'The Serbs say more than 70 people died in two separate locations.

1:40:12 > 1:40:15'This isn't just a military conflict,

1:40:15 > 1:40:17'it's a propaganda one as well.

1:40:17 > 1:40:21'And in Yugoslavia, NATO isn't winning the propaganda war.'

1:40:25 > 1:40:29Back in the camps, NATO was doing everything it could to show

1:40:29 > 1:40:32it was a humanitarian force, not just a military one.

1:40:42 > 1:40:46You take a British soldier, look at the Balkans or anywhere else,

1:40:46 > 1:40:48within five minutes he's got a football out

1:40:48 > 1:40:51and he's playing football with the kids, and that's just what he does.

1:40:51 > 1:40:54It's part of who we are as a nation, I think, part of our character.

1:41:00 > 1:41:04NATO said this is a humanitarian war, and they clearly took

1:41:04 > 1:41:06a strategic decision from the start that they'd

1:41:06 > 1:41:08be doing all of it, the humanitarian, the soft side of it.

1:41:08 > 1:41:13It was very good PR, because they could bring out all these nice

1:41:13 > 1:41:16branded products and these nice little kits,

1:41:16 > 1:41:19and they were even giving out shaving cream with razors.

1:41:19 > 1:41:22I mean it was unbelievable what these people were getting.

1:41:22 > 1:41:24But, you know, it's good that they go it,

1:41:24 > 1:41:27they were very happy to get it. But when you come from Africa,

1:41:27 > 1:41:31where you're barely giving out, you know, beans and filthy water that

1:41:31 > 1:41:33you're converting from a river,

1:41:33 > 1:41:36it was a bit like, "For goodness' sake!"

1:41:40 > 1:41:44After six weeks of bombing, and with the conflict no nearer to ending,

1:41:44 > 1:41:48Western leaders lined up to be seen in NATO's model refugee camps.

1:41:51 > 1:41:54The Kosovar Albanians welcome him with open arms.

1:41:54 > 1:41:56They're shouting his name.

1:41:56 > 1:41:59You know, he's a hero as far as they're concerned.

1:42:05 > 1:42:08It was inevitably part of a message that NATO was trying to send,

1:42:08 > 1:42:10and Blair's visit and the subsequent PR,

1:42:10 > 1:42:13if you like, around that is part of that.

1:42:13 > 1:42:16PEOPLE CHANT

1:42:27 > 1:42:29REPORTER: 'It is finally time.

1:42:29 > 1:42:32'After months of bombing and diplomatic wrangling,

1:42:32 > 1:42:33'NATO is set to enter Kosovo.'

1:42:33 > 1:42:36We haven't been given a marching order yet,

1:42:36 > 1:42:38we're not sure what the timeline's going to be.

1:42:38 > 1:42:41NATO's going to tell us exactly what time we're going to go in.

1:42:41 > 1:42:42But we're prepared to go in.

1:42:42 > 1:42:45We'll be able to go in the next day or two if we need to.

1:42:45 > 1:42:48'After three months of living as refugees,

1:42:48 > 1:42:50'there is a longing to pack up and go home.'

1:42:54 > 1:42:58For humanitarians, the implications of the Kosovan campaign

1:42:58 > 1:43:00were profound.

1:43:03 > 1:43:06By working for one of the warring sides in the conflict,

1:43:06 > 1:43:08they'd crossed the line.

1:43:15 > 1:43:19My only regret is that I wasn't aware of the big picture.

1:43:19 > 1:43:21What are the implications

1:43:21 > 1:43:24of this in the bigger picture and in the future?

1:43:24 > 1:43:28Raises a wider question about the whole relationship of aid agencies

1:43:28 > 1:43:30with, you know, Western powers,

1:43:30 > 1:43:33that we are, in many parts of the world, seen as

1:43:33 > 1:43:36tools of those Western powers.

1:43:36 > 1:43:37I can see it now, I didn't see it then.

1:43:37 > 1:43:40I didn't see it coming. I don't think many of us did.

1:43:45 > 1:43:47I really remember thinking,

1:43:47 > 1:43:50"OK, this is the end of humanitarianism as we know it."

1:43:50 > 1:43:53Because NATO took all the language, they took all the expressions

1:43:53 > 1:43:57we'd been using, and they basically said, "This is a humanitarian war.

1:43:57 > 1:44:01"NATO is now fluffy, fluffy and, you know, this is what we're doing."

1:44:01 > 1:44:04And that was it, you know. It was really difficult.

1:44:04 > 1:44:07Like we were a side issue, quite frankly.

1:44:21 > 1:44:25For decades, Afghanistan was seen as a backwater.

1:44:30 > 1:44:33Ruled over by the Soviets, fought over by warlords

1:44:33 > 1:44:35and finally governed by the Taliban,

1:44:35 > 1:44:39aid agencies had always struggled to work in the country.

1:44:50 > 1:44:539/11 and the fall of the Taliban would change everything.

1:44:53 > 1:44:57Suddenly Afghanistan's, you know, in the limelight of international

1:44:57 > 1:45:01attention and that's a much better position to be in

1:45:01 > 1:45:04than completely forgotten, which is what the situation was in the 1990s.

1:45:04 > 1:45:10This just incredibly happy moment in a country where you haven't

1:45:10 > 1:45:12experienced too many of those happy moments.

1:45:14 > 1:45:17REPORTER: 'Kabul was a free city, after five years of perhaps the most

1:45:17 > 1:45:21'extreme religious system' anywhere on Earth.

1:45:21 > 1:45:25It was just glorious. You were starting to see a country emerge

1:45:25 > 1:45:28and a real feeling of being useful too

1:45:28 > 1:45:29because when you're starting

1:45:29 > 1:45:32from the base that Afghanistan was starting from,

1:45:32 > 1:45:35things are changing rapidly - good things.

1:45:35 > 1:45:38There was a lot of good things happening.

1:45:38 > 1:45:39REPORTER: 'This well at Nar E Saraj

1:45:39 > 1:45:42'is just one of several hundred now being installed

1:45:42 > 1:45:46'across the province, benefiting some 500,000 people.'

1:45:46 > 1:45:48We were optimistic about what could be done,

1:45:48 > 1:45:50and a new democratic government emerging.

1:45:50 > 1:45:54And we could move away from the old warlordism of the past,

1:45:54 > 1:45:55and the Taliban of the past.

1:45:55 > 1:46:00There is grounds for optimism that Afghanistan had a brighter future.

1:46:03 > 1:46:05For the coalition that had defeated the Taliban,

1:46:05 > 1:46:08aid became a key part of its strategy to tie the country

1:46:08 > 1:46:12to the West, and keep the Taliban out for good.

1:46:14 > 1:46:19There is now the real prospect of a stable and prosperous future

1:46:19 > 1:46:22for the people here and it is our commitment and out obligation

1:46:22 > 1:46:25as an international community to make sure that we work with you

1:46:25 > 1:46:26to achieve that.

1:46:26 > 1:46:29The politicians were making really good promises -

1:46:29 > 1:46:31"We're not going to forget you this time."

1:46:31 > 1:46:34Remember Bush and Blair making these speeches.

1:46:34 > 1:46:37"We're in this for the long haul.

1:46:37 > 1:46:39"We're going to help you rebuild

1:46:39 > 1:46:42"your country the right way this time."

1:46:42 > 1:46:45And if you're in the aid game, finally we're going to have a chance

1:46:45 > 1:46:47to do this right.

1:46:47 > 1:46:51Several thing happened immediately, you know, money became

1:46:51 > 1:46:56readily available, lots of agencies who had not worked in Afghanistan

1:46:56 > 1:46:59before showed up, flooded with money,

1:46:59 > 1:47:02and everybody was in a state

1:47:02 > 1:47:05of optimism that things were going to go into the right direction.

1:47:08 > 1:47:11The classic humanitarian angle is to be very humble

1:47:11 > 1:47:14about what we can achieve. And you shouldn't aspire to

1:47:14 > 1:47:15anything more than that.

1:47:15 > 1:47:17INTERVIEWER: What did you aspire to?

1:47:17 > 1:47:20I aspired to being part of something bigger than that.

1:47:20 > 1:47:25There was the possibility of rebuilding a foundation that would

1:47:25 > 1:47:29last long beyond the symptomatic treatment of the latest emergency.

1:47:29 > 1:47:33There was a dizziness in the aid world,

1:47:33 > 1:47:35this merging of the state, of the military -

1:47:35 > 1:47:40and humanitarianism was this new kind of colonial imperative.

1:47:40 > 1:47:45They believed that they could create states which were like us,

1:47:45 > 1:47:49you know, would be friendly towards us, shared our values.

1:47:51 > 1:47:53With Western aid money flowing in,

1:47:53 > 1:47:57the Afghan government of Hamid Karzai attached conditions

1:47:57 > 1:48:00to aid agencies wanting to work in the country.

1:48:02 > 1:48:05In order to get contracts to carry out aid projects in different

1:48:05 > 1:48:08parts of the country, the Karzai government made

1:48:08 > 1:48:14aid organisations have to sign on to their national policy.

1:48:14 > 1:48:16The whole idea was we use aid to expand

1:48:16 > 1:48:20the legitimacy of the Karzai regime all around the country.

1:48:23 > 1:48:26Most aid organisations joined the club and it seemed like

1:48:26 > 1:48:28a good idea, and everybody was working for peace,

1:48:28 > 1:48:30love and harmony in Afghanistan,

1:48:30 > 1:48:33and nobody expected the Taliban to come back.

1:48:33 > 1:48:36But just two years after the Taliban were supposed

1:48:36 > 1:48:39to have been defeated, they were back.

1:48:49 > 1:48:52REPORTER: 'The frontline British forces are fighting a war

1:48:52 > 1:48:54'against the Taliban.

1:48:54 > 1:48:58'The battle ended with a 1,000lb bomb dropped from the air

1:48:58 > 1:49:01'and another piece of the town destroyed.'

1:49:05 > 1:49:09Suddenly, the aid organisations that had thrown their lot in with

1:49:09 > 1:49:11the coalition forces,

1:49:11 > 1:49:14found themselves subject to attack by the Taliban.

1:49:20 > 1:49:24With aid workers now major targets, they were forced to retreat behind

1:49:24 > 1:49:28high security walls, in a process that became known as bunkerisation.

1:49:32 > 1:49:34Well, I think when you've gone back

1:49:34 > 1:49:37and forth from Afghanistan over the years,

1:49:37 > 1:49:42to see a deterioration in the ability of aid organisations

1:49:42 > 1:49:47to even just live in Kabul, without massive security around them,

1:49:47 > 1:49:49is very depressing.

1:49:52 > 1:49:56Every time I've gone back to Afghanistan over the past ten years,

1:49:56 > 1:50:01you know, the universe of the aid worker is shrinking.

1:50:01 > 1:50:03You're basically living in a bunkerised compound,

1:50:03 > 1:50:06in a fortified aid compound,

1:50:06 > 1:50:11that looks no different, seen from the outside, to the military bases.

1:50:11 > 1:50:16# In my room

1:50:16 > 1:50:19# In my room... #

1:50:19 > 1:50:22My employers wanted me to go in this armoured car,

1:50:22 > 1:50:24and have a bodyguard and, I mean,

1:50:24 > 1:50:28how can you relate to another human being in a conversation

1:50:28 > 1:50:30when you get out of this big monstrosity

1:50:30 > 1:50:33that's got walls this thick and there's a big guy

1:50:33 > 1:50:36beside you with a gun, and you're saying, "So, how's it going?"

1:50:36 > 1:50:39You know, you can't have a normal conversation

1:50:39 > 1:50:41with somebody in that regard.

1:50:43 > 1:50:46I think most aid organisations will agree that

1:50:46 > 1:50:48so much of our security depends upon

1:50:48 > 1:50:51how we are perceived in local communities,

1:50:51 > 1:50:54and how can they have any perception of you

1:50:54 > 1:50:58other than through driving fast, blowing up dust in their face

1:50:58 > 1:51:03in a huge four-wheel drive, driving into your walled compound?

1:51:03 > 1:51:09There is no perception other than money, exploitable, distance -

1:51:09 > 1:51:11that's the image that is being given.

1:51:11 > 1:51:14# ..In my room... #

1:51:14 > 1:51:19Afghans will say, "At least the Russians built things."

1:51:19 > 1:51:21You know, "They built factories.

1:51:21 > 1:51:24"The women could go and work in the cotton factory.

1:51:24 > 1:51:26"What have these Western people done?

1:51:26 > 1:51:27"They've just filled their pockets.

1:51:27 > 1:51:31"Why do they do these small projects that we can do ourselves?" You know?

1:51:31 > 1:51:33"Why do all these people come here?

1:51:33 > 1:51:37"Is it because they don't find a job in their own country?"

1:51:37 > 1:51:41You have a government that's seen very widely to be corrupt,

1:51:41 > 1:51:43you have the perception that all this money is coming in

1:51:43 > 1:51:47and it's not going anywhere, and that NGOs are worse than warlords.

1:51:59 > 1:52:02An aid project that sought to transform Afghanistan

1:52:02 > 1:52:06finds itself unable to provide even basic humanitarian assistance.

1:52:06 > 1:52:08Right, let's go.

1:52:08 > 1:52:12Critics argue it's a failure the aid agencies

1:52:12 > 1:52:14largely brought on themselves.

1:52:18 > 1:52:22Unless you are neutral, unless you are seen as being

1:52:22 > 1:52:26balanced in who you are helping, you will be seen as having taken sides.

1:52:26 > 1:52:29Agencies put themself in this situation where

1:52:29 > 1:52:31they were working for one side.

1:52:31 > 1:52:36So suddenly, from the space of manoeuvre being quite large,

1:52:36 > 1:52:39they've had to withdraw, withdraw, withdraw from more and more

1:52:39 > 1:52:44regions of Afghanistan, until they're in a bunker in Kabul,

1:52:44 > 1:52:46really unable to do very much,

1:52:46 > 1:52:49because they abandoned their neutrality.

1:52:57 > 1:53:02INTERVIEWER: What they say is that you took sides in a conflict

1:53:02 > 1:53:05and you became part of the conflict.

1:53:05 > 1:53:08OK, OK. So this is the heart of it.

1:53:09 > 1:53:13Did we take sides in Afghanistan?

1:53:13 > 1:53:15There's two ways of taking sides.

1:53:15 > 1:53:18Our real choice isn't between

1:53:18 > 1:53:21whether we like the US or the Taliban.

1:53:21 > 1:53:24Our real choice is whether we are on the side of the Afghan people,

1:53:24 > 1:53:27who frankly are getting screwed by both of you!

1:53:27 > 1:53:29You're getting your money from the US.

1:53:29 > 1:53:30We're getting our money from the US,

1:53:30 > 1:53:33so that places a MUCH higher obligation on us.

1:53:38 > 1:53:43For purists, only a return to a very limited form of humanitarianism

1:53:43 > 1:53:45that stresses neutrality above all else,

1:53:45 > 1:53:47will ever allow aid agencies

1:53:47 > 1:53:50to operate in a conflict like Afghanistan again.

1:53:52 > 1:53:55But others believe there's no going back.

1:54:02 > 1:54:06There are classic humanitarians who will say we need to get back

1:54:06 > 1:54:09to a simpler, more pure and more humble form of humanitarian action,

1:54:09 > 1:54:11and I think they're missing the point,

1:54:11 > 1:54:13cos the show has moved on.

1:54:13 > 1:54:19Nobody thinks that humanitarians are these group of angels any more.

1:54:19 > 1:54:23And trying to re-establish our angelic posture is naive.

1:54:28 > 1:54:32You could easily refer to Afghanistan as marking

1:54:32 > 1:54:34the death of humanitarianism.

1:54:34 > 1:54:37I mean once humanitarianism is openly controlled

1:54:37 > 1:54:43as part of a political strategy by a group of Western powers

1:54:43 > 1:54:47in another country and they dictate what aid does

1:54:47 > 1:54:50and what it doesn't do,

1:54:50 > 1:54:54it's now taken a totally different form.

1:55:01 > 1:55:06Over 40 years ago, a radical movement burst onto the world stage.

1:55:08 > 1:55:12Since then, humanitarianism has grown in power, influence

1:55:12 > 1:55:14and ambition.

1:55:16 > 1:55:19Tens of thousands of people have spent their lives

1:55:19 > 1:55:20trying to help those in need.

1:55:20 > 1:55:25All have grappled with the same question -

1:55:25 > 1:55:28can aid make the world a better place?

1:55:33 > 1:55:38'I think the fact that if there is a war or disaster'

1:55:38 > 1:55:39anywhere in the world now...

1:55:41 > 1:55:45..a child, a man, a woman,

1:55:45 > 1:55:47is likely to receive aid from

1:55:47 > 1:55:50the international humanitarian system in some way.

1:55:50 > 1:55:53And I think that is profound moral progress, cos it shows

1:55:53 > 1:55:57the whole world ready to take responsibility for other people

1:55:57 > 1:55:59it has never met and has no kinship with.

1:56:02 > 1:56:08'We tend to present ourselves as those who know the truth

1:56:08 > 1:56:11'about the real solutions, the truth about the real problems,

1:56:11 > 1:56:16'and the way we can overcome these problems.'

1:56:16 > 1:56:20And that, I think, is just misleading.

1:56:20 > 1:56:23It's wrong.

1:56:23 > 1:56:29We're not in a position to propose solutions

1:56:29 > 1:56:33to the suffering in general to the rest of the world.

1:56:37 > 1:56:42'The primary motivation of most aid organisations is self-preservation.

1:56:42 > 1:56:43'They have to,'

1:56:43 > 1:56:46because there's this overweening belief that

1:56:46 > 1:56:48we have to be present to save these lives.

1:56:48 > 1:56:50We are doing good around the world.

1:56:50 > 1:56:53And you can't question that belief, even within most organisations

1:56:53 > 1:56:55'because this is the belief you have to sell.

1:56:55 > 1:56:56'So negative messages,

1:56:56 > 1:56:59'messages about the complexity of aid operations,

1:56:59 > 1:57:01'messages about that sometimes'

1:57:01 > 1:57:05aid does more harm than good, are not ones that

1:57:05 > 1:57:0999.9% of aid organisations are going to EVER discuss.

1:57:12 > 1:57:15'I still go back to the fact that there are people

1:57:15 > 1:57:18'who are suffering unnecessarily around the world.

1:57:18 > 1:57:21'We ought to be doing something about it.

1:57:21 > 1:57:23'It's not enough just to put £10'

1:57:23 > 1:57:25in the collecting box for Oxfam.

1:57:25 > 1:57:27I still don't feel that that is the answer

1:57:27 > 1:57:30because I've been doing that and other people have been doing it

1:57:30 > 1:57:34for years and years and years, and the situation doesn't seem

1:57:34 > 1:57:37to be an awful lot different from what it was.

1:57:37 > 1:57:41So I don't accept that just giving more to charity is the answer.

1:57:41 > 1:57:45So this leaves me endlessly sort of probing into what is the problem?

1:57:45 > 1:57:48What is the solution? What am I going to do?

1:57:52 > 1:57:58'This is a fantastic movement and I'm happy with that.'

1:57:58 > 1:58:07Humanitarian...let's say spirit, has also partly changed the world.

1:58:10 > 1:58:13But, you know, when you want to change the world,

1:58:13 > 1:58:18always some people are in disagreement with you.

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