0:00:00 > 0:00:03In 2014, jobs are scarce
0:00:03 > 0:00:06and the whole process of getting one is very complicated.
0:00:06 > 0:00:08When you apply for a job, you have to fill in a form
0:00:08 > 0:00:12telling your employer your religion, your race, even your sexuality.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15But the people appointing you or interviewing you aren't allowed
0:00:15 > 0:00:17to know any of that or if you're married
0:00:17 > 0:00:19or your age or whether you have a disability.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Why? Well, in case they discriminate against you.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Things were a lot simpler back in the 1960s.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28The Catholic boys and men around this district, or any Catholic,
0:00:28 > 0:00:31actually, can't pick and choose their jobs.
0:00:31 > 0:00:33As that woman has told you,
0:00:33 > 0:00:35the Protestants get the pick of the jobs.
0:00:35 > 0:00:37They're out for civil rights
0:00:37 > 0:00:39and there's no civil rights to be out for.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42You take a man here of a Protestant who's working,
0:00:42 > 0:00:45and his basic wage is £12-14 per week.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49You take a man on the Roman Catholic side, there's no call to work.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52His wages of the Government are £20-25 per week.
0:00:52 > 0:00:55There's nothing right with being a Roman Catholic,
0:00:55 > 0:00:59the Protestants have better privileges and everything else.
0:00:59 > 0:01:02In the past there may well have been discrimination
0:01:02 > 0:01:06but nowadays there's very, very little.
0:01:06 > 0:01:11I fought for 18 years in the Army for liberty and freedom.
0:01:11 > 0:01:16But simply because I'm a Catholic I cannot get freedom or liberty here!
0:01:16 > 0:01:19Discrimination in employment was a major divisive issue in
0:01:19 > 0:01:21Northern Ireland in the 1960s,
0:01:21 > 0:01:25and in 1969 that anger and resentment boiled over.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38Even years later, lack of fairness in employment was said to be
0:01:38 > 0:01:40a major cause of the Troubles.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43According to Martin McGuinness, one of the main reasons he became
0:01:43 > 0:01:45a Republican was not necessarily
0:01:45 > 0:01:48what flag flew over public buildings.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50When I was 15 years of age,
0:01:50 > 0:01:54I walked into a Unionist-owned business in Derry.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57I was asked my name.
0:01:57 > 0:02:01I said, "Martin McGuinness." It's not spelt the same way as Ken's.
0:02:01 > 0:02:04They asked me then, what school I went to, and when I told them
0:02:04 > 0:02:08the Christian Brothers School, I was shown the door.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Martin McGuinness and his cohorts
0:02:10 > 0:02:14are coming from the...killing of 2,200 people
0:02:14 > 0:02:17because he said he didn't get a job in 19-something-or-other!
0:02:17 > 0:02:20I think it was slightly more complicated than that, Ken Maginnis.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23So, there you have it, Martin McGuinness could have been
0:02:23 > 0:02:27a car mechanic instead of a Deputy First Minister.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Nowadays, we take the issue of fairness in employment for granted.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32We're all used to the culture of equal opportunities
0:02:32 > 0:02:34but it wasn't always like that.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38This is the story of fair employment in Northern Ireland.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58The issue of discrimination in employment goes way back.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01I mean, in 1690 we even fought a war over
0:03:01 > 0:03:05whether a Catholic or a Protestant should get the job as King.
0:03:05 > 0:03:07But we don't have to go that far back.
0:03:07 > 0:03:10Lack of fairness in employment was a problem that stretched
0:03:10 > 0:03:12back to the 1900s, and even before then.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15It was very much a feature before partition.
0:03:15 > 0:03:17Belfast shipyards, for example, tended to have a very small
0:03:17 > 0:03:20percentage of Catholic workers, and many of those were
0:03:20 > 0:03:23expelled in the sectarian violence of the early 1920s.
0:03:23 > 0:03:25Edward Carson, who contributed
0:03:25 > 0:03:28so much to the foundation of Northern Ireland, was offered the
0:03:28 > 0:03:32post of Prime Minister but declined, preferring to live in England.
0:03:32 > 0:03:35And he still got a statue up in Stormont.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37But when the Northern Ireland state was created,
0:03:37 > 0:03:41Carson had a warning for his fellow Unionists.
0:03:41 > 0:03:46I want to remind you of one great Unionist, Edward Carson,
0:03:46 > 0:03:50when he said, "Look after the minority." We didn't...
0:03:52 > 0:03:53..and have we suffered for it.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57Many Unionists, even Ian Paisley, now concede that Carson's words
0:03:57 > 0:04:00might have fallen on a few deaf ears.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04But what was the actual extent of discrimination in employment?
0:04:04 > 0:04:09Well, this is Northern Ireland, so views vary.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Discrimination was systematic, it was structural, it was endemic.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14It was planned.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16There was discrimination in Northern Ireland, I would just
0:04:16 > 0:04:19add that it was probably on both sides as well.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21I think there was a factory of grievances.
0:04:21 > 0:04:23I think that's what part of the civil rights was about,
0:04:23 > 0:04:27"Let's try and produce as big a list of grievances as we can."
0:04:27 > 0:04:29- CROWD CHANT:- Sieg Heil! Sieg Heil!
0:04:29 > 0:04:31Many of them were grossly over-egged
0:04:31 > 0:04:34and I think...employment discrimination as well.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45The Unionist Party ran the Government of Northern Ireland
0:04:45 > 0:04:48from the 1920s to 1972.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50A period which many nationalists have
0:04:50 > 0:04:54described as "50 years of Unionist misrule."
0:04:54 > 0:04:56But this was not the Southern States of America.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59Protestants didn't own Catholic slaves.
0:04:59 > 0:05:01Nor was it apartheid South Africa.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04Discrimination was not enshrined in law.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07But it is clear that a culture of discrimination, of unfairness
0:05:07 > 0:05:09was allowed to flourish.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12There's a famous saying that I always remember,
0:05:12 > 0:05:15"You'd neither in ye nor on ye, but we were in power!"
0:05:15 > 0:05:18So, it was always about...you might think you and the Protestant
0:05:18 > 0:05:21working class were doing really, really badly
0:05:21 > 0:05:23but look at THEM across the way.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31Lord Craigavon very famously, within 18 months of Stormont being opened,
0:05:31 > 0:05:34says, "All I boast is we are a Protestant Parliament
0:05:34 > 0:05:36"and Protestant State."
0:05:36 > 0:05:38His Agriculture Minister, Sir Basil Brooke,
0:05:38 > 0:05:40a future wartime Prime Minister,
0:05:40 > 0:05:44actually urges Protestant employers in 1933 to employ only
0:05:44 > 0:05:48Protestant lads and lasses and not Roman Catholics who
0:05:48 > 0:05:52were 99% disloyal and are out to cut our throats.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54And then we have the famous one, of course,
0:05:54 > 0:05:58of JM Andrews, Minister of Labour and a future Prime Minister,
0:05:58 > 0:06:01who actually says, in 1933, that there are rumours that the
0:06:01 > 0:06:04number of porters at Stormont are Roman Catholic
0:06:04 > 0:06:05but he has counted them
0:06:05 > 0:06:08and of, actually, 31 porters, 30 are Protestant,
0:06:08 > 0:06:10one is a Catholic - but he's only temporary!
0:06:10 > 0:06:12And he actually makes this speech.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14Dawson Bates was in charge of everything, the police,
0:06:14 > 0:06:17the electoral system, the strongman of the Cabinet,
0:06:17 > 0:06:19former organiser of the UVF.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22And he's there for over 20 years in this key position.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25But Dawson Bates refused to use a telephone at Stormont,
0:06:25 > 0:06:28when he discovered that somewhere amongst that mass of young ladies
0:06:28 > 0:06:31there was a Roman Catholic telephonist.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33Now, this takes some beating, you know.
0:06:33 > 0:06:35When the Prime Minister and the Minister for Home Affairs,
0:06:35 > 0:06:38in charge of the police, adopt these attitudes,
0:06:38 > 0:06:41it's not surprising that they might be replicated among employers.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Many ordinary people didn't think in those terms at all.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47They had great neighbourly relationships, they would
0:06:47 > 0:06:50employ their neighbours at harvest time and all the rest of it,
0:06:50 > 0:06:53but there was a political culture embedded, I think,
0:06:53 > 0:06:56in the Unionist system and in the Unionist state.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59All of the empirical evidence clearly shows that there
0:06:59 > 0:07:03was rampant discrimination against the Catholic community.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06I think it also clearly shows that there were many
0:07:06 > 0:07:10people in the Protestant community who didn't do that well either,
0:07:10 > 0:07:12because effectively the Northern state was being
0:07:12 > 0:07:16controlled by a hierarchy of people,
0:07:16 > 0:07:18who looked after their own.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21It was in the powers that be, the landed gentry, the sirs,
0:07:21 > 0:07:23the majors and the lords,
0:07:23 > 0:07:27ably assisted by some of our big daily newspapers,
0:07:27 > 0:07:30that played that Orange card.
0:07:30 > 0:07:34Unionists argued that discrimination was exaggerated, that much Catholic
0:07:34 > 0:07:38unemployment was due to them having larger families or to geography.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41The areas you have mentioned, they haven't high unemployment
0:07:41 > 0:07:43because they're Catholic but simply
0:07:43 > 0:07:47because they are based on the periphery of Ulster.
0:07:47 > 0:07:52They're away in the west, most of them, and Newry is deep in the south.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55Because of the economic setup,
0:07:55 > 0:07:59mostly initiated or maintained by a Socialist government
0:07:59 > 0:08:02across the water, unemployment is sometimes very attractive.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04Particularly to people with large families.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08They also said that discrimination wasn't always one way.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10In areas where Catholics were in the majority,
0:08:10 > 0:08:12they tended to discriminate against Protestants.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15One side is just as bad as the other.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19Erm, and it's the Trade Union principle,
0:08:19 > 0:08:21they want their own people.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25They want their own people in their own businesses.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29With housing as one of the political issues, unemployment is the other.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32In Derry, unemployment has always been high.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35Today, one man in five is out of work
0:08:35 > 0:08:38and here, too, religion complicates the problem.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Every time they would ask you what school you were at.
0:08:42 > 0:08:46And when you said Saint Columba's, that's that, they've no vacancies.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48That's not the Protestants,
0:08:48 > 0:08:52that's these people that's on the Guildhall and up in Stormont
0:08:52 > 0:08:53that's making the difference.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56The Protestants and the Catholics could live here all right,
0:08:56 > 0:08:57if they were left alone to live.
0:08:57 > 0:08:59I know the person who,
0:08:59 > 0:09:03in the 1960s, his job...he was employed as a civil servant,
0:09:03 > 0:09:05was Protestant but he told me
0:09:05 > 0:09:10his job was to put a star beside the names of the Catholics,
0:09:10 > 0:09:13who were applying for boards, to get promoted and so on.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16And even applying to get into the civil service.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18This is BBC Northern Ireland.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22Ulster stands at the crossroads.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26At this crucial time, Northern Ireland had a new Prime Minister,
0:09:26 > 0:09:28Captain Terence O'Neill.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31Unlike his predecessors, O'Neill knew things had to change and
0:09:31 > 0:09:35for a time, it looked like he might be the man to do it.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38I think by the '60s O'Neill appears to be addressing the issues.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40He's trying to improve community relations,
0:09:40 > 0:09:42but it's very much gesture politics.
0:09:42 > 0:09:46It's the visit to a convent school, you know, it's a civic week,
0:09:46 > 0:09:48it's nothing of any substance.
0:09:51 > 0:09:53Cardinal Conway, actually,
0:09:53 > 0:09:57accuses O'Neill of raising Catholic expectations and then dashing them.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59And that seems to be the green light
0:09:59 > 0:10:03for the emergence of a movement on the streets.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07Gentlemen, please! God, save us all!
0:10:08 > 0:10:11Do you think that the recent riots could have been avoided
0:10:11 > 0:10:14if you'd done more to deal with the grievances of Catholics?
0:10:14 > 0:10:15I didn't have any particular
0:10:15 > 0:10:17grievances put to me.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21It's only recently that those have
0:10:21 > 0:10:23been stirred up...chiefly
0:10:23 > 0:10:29by...I suppose, you are aware that the composition of those riots
0:10:29 > 0:10:32was not entirely those people who are suffering from civil grievances.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36It was composed of the Irish Republican Army - admittedly by them -
0:10:36 > 0:10:38and by communists.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41Can you think of things which could have been done to ease
0:10:41 > 0:10:42Catholic discrimination?
0:10:42 > 0:10:45Yes, it could have been done but been politically very difficult
0:10:45 > 0:10:48because of the antipathy of their own Catholics.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51And the fact that they were backing the Irish Republican Army,
0:10:51 > 0:10:54who are out to defeat Northern Ireland and to shoot our people.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58Five, four, three...
0:10:58 > 0:11:01I am speaking to you, tonight,
0:11:01 > 0:11:05as your Prime Minister for the last time.
0:11:05 > 0:11:06You have O'Neill's famous speech,
0:11:06 > 0:11:10a month after he lost office in 1969, when he's rationalising
0:11:10 > 0:11:15his policy of good feeling towards the Nationalist population.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19He said, you know, you can't make extreme Unionists understand that if
0:11:19 > 0:11:23you give a Catholic a house, erm, and treat them well,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26they will live like Protestants.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30Unlike the Catholic in a terrible hovel, who will have 18 children,
0:11:30 > 0:11:33they will see their Protestant neighbours with televisions and cars
0:11:33 > 0:11:36and they will ape their habits.
0:11:36 > 0:11:37He seems to be explaining...
0:11:37 > 0:11:40It's almost racist, obviously, it's condescending.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43It's easy to be hard on O'Neill but we have to remember,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46this was the first time a Unionist Prime Minister tacitly
0:11:46 > 0:11:49admitted that Catholics were being treated unfairly
0:11:49 > 0:11:54in Northern Ireland, and he did it a mere 45 years before Ian Paisley.
0:12:06 > 0:12:11But, by 1969, we were far beyond arguments about fairness and justice.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14The discrimination issue fed the belief among Nationalists
0:12:14 > 0:12:18that Northern Ireland was an irreformable, sectarian state.
0:12:18 > 0:12:21Part of the source of the conflict was the fact
0:12:21 > 0:12:23that the Nationalist/Catholic community
0:12:23 > 0:12:27WERE discriminated against, could see no other way out of it.
0:12:27 > 0:12:29The irony was, of course, that within months
0:12:29 > 0:12:32of the start of the Troubles, most of the demands
0:12:32 > 0:12:34of the civil rights movement had been met.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38But there was one elephant still sitting in the room,
0:12:38 > 0:12:40discrimination in employment.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43In September 1971, I applied for a job as a librarian
0:12:43 > 0:12:46and in the course of the interview
0:12:46 > 0:12:48they asked me what school I had gone to.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51I said, I went to St Peter's Secondary School,
0:12:51 > 0:12:52in Brittons Parade.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54And one of them turns around and says,
0:12:54 > 0:12:56"Oh, is that where Joe Cahill gave his press conference?"
0:12:56 > 0:12:58A few weeks after introduction of internment,
0:12:58 > 0:13:01the school had been empty for the summer holidays and, yes,
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Joe Cahill had given an IRA interview at the school.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08So, they told me, "Well, you'll be hearing from us."
0:13:08 > 0:13:12And it's now 2014 and I still don't know whether I got the job.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22Amid the escalating violence, the Stormont Government was
0:13:22 > 0:13:26abolished in 1972 and replaced by direct-rule Westminster.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28MUSIC: "Changes" by David Bowie
0:13:28 > 0:13:33# Turn and face the strange changes! #
0:13:33 > 0:13:38..in our endeavour to provide just government in Ulster
0:13:38 > 0:13:41have been betrayed from London.
0:13:45 > 0:13:49Discrimination in employment was now a problem for the Government in London.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51Everyone knows that there has been a strong Protestant
0:13:51 > 0:13:54tradition in Harland and Wolff over the years.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56The management have made it perfectly clear,
0:13:56 > 0:14:00and so have I, that we are seeking a balanced workforce in the future.
0:14:00 > 0:14:01That is what we are going to do
0:14:01 > 0:14:03and everybody's going to work to that end.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05But it took another four years.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08In 1976, the Government passed the Fair Employment Act
0:14:08 > 0:14:12and set up the Fair Employment Agency.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15For the first time, it was unlawful to discriminate in employment.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18So, that was that sorted!
0:14:18 > 0:14:20Well, not quite.
0:14:20 > 0:14:24# I believe in miracles! #
0:14:24 > 0:14:28The agency had a tiny staff, the law was weak and ineffective.
0:14:28 > 0:14:31Employers had little to fear from a body with so few powers.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33If you felt you'd been discriminated against,
0:14:33 > 0:14:36the Fair Employment Agency could investigate your complaint,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39but the whole thing was conducted in private.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42The 1976 act was complete rubbish.
0:14:42 > 0:14:44It was so that, when someone questioned the British,
0:14:44 > 0:14:48the British could say, "Look, we're completely opposed to discrimination.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51"In fact, we have a law which is outlawing discrimination."
0:14:51 > 0:14:55But it just made it illegal to discriminate.
0:14:55 > 0:14:56You couldn't prove it.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58Of course, there's a place
0:14:58 > 0:15:00in the firm for you.
0:15:00 > 0:15:01After all, you were recommended
0:15:01 > 0:15:03by one of our own people.
0:15:03 > 0:15:08Mind you, we were looking for someone with more experience
0:15:08 > 0:15:11but you should fit in very nicely.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14In Northern Ireland, some people get jobs
0:15:14 > 0:15:17because who they know not what they know.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19Or because they're one religion, not the other.
0:15:19 > 0:15:24Give ability a fair chance, pick the best person for the job.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27The agency had very little compliance powers.
0:15:27 > 0:15:32So, there was a good deal of hearts and minds work that was being done.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34And really, that was my role.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37If I remember right, you advertised that job.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39Suppose he was the best you could get.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41That's just it, he wasn't.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43There was a better person that applied for the job,
0:15:43 > 0:15:45but I didn't think he'd fit in...if you see what I mean.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48No, I don't see what you mean.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50He dug with the wrong foot.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53The wrong sort!
0:15:53 > 0:15:55Not one of us!
0:15:55 > 0:15:58Wrong religion - do I have to spell it out?
0:15:58 > 0:16:00I'll tell you something, you WILL have to spell it, Arthur.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02How can your business afford cock-ups like that?
0:16:02 > 0:16:06How can anyone's business afford not to employ the best person?
0:16:06 > 0:16:07Don't rub it in.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09I've already learned the hard way.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12When the Government set up the Fair Employment Agency,
0:16:12 > 0:16:14they needed someone to lead it,
0:16:14 > 0:16:17to lead the campaign to end discrimination against Catholics.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20So, they chose a Protestant Unionist.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24I would accept that there are problems for Protestants,
0:16:24 > 0:16:26in particular areas of employment.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29The biggest problem and the reason the agency was set up was
0:16:29 > 0:16:31because of the problems for Catholics
0:16:31 > 0:16:33and I think that still remains at the present time.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36Though, I hope it is a diminishing problem.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40The fact that Bob had been so heavily involved in politics and was
0:16:40 > 0:16:42quite high profile and certainly had been heavily
0:16:42 > 0:16:45involved in the process of fair employment right from the beginning
0:16:45 > 0:16:47was a huge asset, in my view.
0:16:47 > 0:16:49He was very political.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51He had initially joined the Ulster Unionists Party
0:16:51 > 0:16:54and then was important in established in the Alliance Party.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57What significance would you attach to this bombing?
0:16:57 > 0:17:00It's certainly inconvenient, a couple of days before the election.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02I think it's an attempt by some men of violence
0:17:02 > 0:17:04to get at a political party,
0:17:04 > 0:17:07which is working for peace and reconciliation.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10I think, the interesting thing is that we wouldn't have a clue
0:17:10 > 0:17:13which side is doing it because both sides have reason to dislike us.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16Both sides are opposed to what we are trying to achieve.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18In the power-sharing executive he had been
0:17:18 > 0:17:21the Minister for Manpower, and he had seen, of course,
0:17:21 > 0:17:24first-hand the impact of the Ulster Workers' Strike,
0:17:24 > 0:17:26which brought down that Government.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29So, for him, he knew that there would be no society
0:17:29 > 0:17:31if it wasn't an equal society.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34Republicans thought he was just a Brit lackey.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37Unionists said he led the Fenian Employment Commission.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40It seems to me that the attitude within Unionists circles,
0:17:40 > 0:17:43they don't think of it as a Fair Employment Agency,
0:17:43 > 0:17:44and I'm sorry to use this word,
0:17:44 > 0:17:46they see it as a Catholic Employment Agency.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49We never worked on the basis that employers all over
0:17:49 > 0:17:52Northern Ireland were waking up, and their first waking thought was,
0:17:52 > 0:17:55"How can I keep X or Y out of my workforce?"
0:17:55 > 0:17:58The Sirocco Engineering Works in East Belfast extends
0:17:58 > 0:18:02into Short Strand, yet the workforce has traditionally been Protestant.
0:18:02 > 0:18:04At the present moment in time, I think
0:18:04 > 0:18:07we have about two or three people from the Short Strand area.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10Have you tried to encourage Roman Catholics to come and work here?
0:18:10 > 0:18:13No, the company has made no attempt in this direction.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16We have found many companies in Northern Ireland,
0:18:16 > 0:18:18many companies in Belfast,
0:18:18 > 0:18:22which simply employ almost 100% Protestants.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24We've other companies in an area like Derry,
0:18:24 > 0:18:26where it is the other way around.
0:18:26 > 0:18:30I would like to see the Fair Employment Agency
0:18:30 > 0:18:32disbanded forthwith.
0:18:32 > 0:18:37Being shown around East Belfast by one of the local community
0:18:37 > 0:18:41representatives, as it were, and they came past a pub...
0:18:42 > 0:18:47..and the guy said to the American, "See the guys in there,
0:18:47 > 0:18:51"If they had a choice of getting their hands on Gerry Adams
0:18:51 > 0:18:54"or on bog paper, they'd go for bog paper every time."
0:18:54 > 0:18:57I get threats. Many people get threats.
0:18:57 > 0:19:02I have as many threats, probably, as most people in Northern Ireland.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05And the establishment didn't like that the agency had the power to
0:19:05 > 0:19:10investigate all employers, even the upper echelons of the civil service.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12Did Minister of State Hugh Rossi
0:19:12 > 0:19:14ask you not to do the civil service report?
0:19:14 > 0:19:17I told him, it was our intention to do a report
0:19:17 > 0:19:20on the civil service, and investigation on the civil service
0:19:20 > 0:19:23and he suggested that he would really rather we didn't
0:19:23 > 0:19:26because he felt that things were improving quite a lot.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29We did not accede to his desire that we shouldn't investigate
0:19:29 > 0:19:30the civil service.
0:19:30 > 0:19:31Three years ago,
0:19:31 > 0:19:33the Government set up a Fair Employment Agency
0:19:33 > 0:19:36for Northern Ireland, to make sure that Catholics and
0:19:36 > 0:19:38Protestants have equal chances at work.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40We can reveal that is not happening.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43If they're Catholic, they're more than twice as likely to be
0:19:43 > 0:19:46unemployed as their Protestant counterparts.
0:19:46 > 0:19:49If a company has always had a 95% Protestant workforce,
0:19:49 > 0:19:52then it's likely it always will.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55Partly because many boys will only hear of job vacancies
0:19:55 > 0:19:58through their family or friends in their own area.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00Hopefully get into Gallaher's.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02And how will you do that?
0:20:02 > 0:20:04My father got me a form out of it,
0:20:04 > 0:20:07cos he works on it, and filled it in and sent it in.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10- How have you gone about trying to get a job?- My uncles are trying to get me into it.
0:20:10 > 0:20:14He got an internship for it and I asked him, could he get me one, he said OK and he got it.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18Even though Protestants had work in the shipyard and apprenticeships
0:20:18 > 0:20:20and other industries in East Belfast,
0:20:20 > 0:20:24it masked a much greater problem, in terms of educational disadvantage
0:20:24 > 0:20:28because they were leaving school at an early age, barely capable
0:20:28 > 0:20:32to read or write, but they were getting jobs in the shipyard.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34But in Catholic West Belfast, it's not so easy,
0:20:34 > 0:20:37and for many of the children and families, there remains a real fear
0:20:37 > 0:20:40of working in traditionally Protestant industries.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42What happened when you took the boys to the shipyard?
0:20:42 > 0:20:45Well, I took them down and we went around
0:20:45 > 0:20:48and the people were... they were very good and helped us.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52But once the boys saw the bunting and the flags,
0:20:52 > 0:20:54they were completely put off.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56When they came out and got into the minibus,
0:20:56 > 0:21:00the first thing they did was tear up the literature.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03The big employers in Northern Ireland simply weren't co-operating
0:21:03 > 0:21:05with the Fair Employment Agency.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07When we wrote and asked for basic information,
0:21:07 > 0:21:09not a question about making
0:21:09 > 0:21:10judgment - basic information.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12They said no and consistently
0:21:12 > 0:21:13went on saying no, till they
0:21:13 > 0:21:15were threatened with subpoena.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17Then, they came across with information,
0:21:17 > 0:21:20which wasn't the specific information that we asked for.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23Why did it take four years before Shorts agreed
0:21:23 > 0:21:25to an affirmative action programme?
0:21:25 > 0:21:27Why did it take that length of time?
0:21:27 > 0:21:30Well, I think that's something you should ask the company.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34In the '70s and '80s there was a push for anti-discrimination law
0:21:34 > 0:21:36from academics, from Nationalists
0:21:36 > 0:21:38and from the FEA itself.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42But what really broke the log-jam was pressure from America.
0:21:42 > 0:21:47# But I'm sailing across the sea
0:21:47 > 0:21:50# To see my Uncle Sam...#
0:21:50 > 0:21:53The campaign across the US to get every state to accept
0:21:53 > 0:21:55the MacBride Principles has hit town.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58The dealings of American businessmen in Northern Ireland -
0:21:58 > 0:22:02how many Catholics, how many Protestants they may employ -
0:22:02 > 0:22:04has become everyone's business.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07We have a right to tell American firms that they cannot
0:22:07 > 0:22:11join in an apparatus of discrimination.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14They were named after Sean MacBride.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18In 1984, MacBride proposed that US companies, US pension funds
0:22:18 > 0:22:21and the US government itself should refuse to invest in Northern Ireland
0:22:21 > 0:22:25companies, unless they signed up to his MacBride Principles.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30The MacBride Principles is the perfect way
0:22:30 > 0:22:35for Americans of conscience and justice to say, "We don't
0:22:35 > 0:22:40"want our dollars subsidising anti-Catholic discrimination."
0:22:40 > 0:22:42The MacBride Principles were enormously important
0:22:42 > 0:22:44in putting pressure on the British,
0:22:44 > 0:22:48and particularly the MacBride campaign in Congress.
0:22:48 > 0:22:52The MacBride Principles did have a huge impact
0:22:52 > 0:22:56on the psychology of 10 Downing Street and London.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59# Sailing across the sea
0:22:59 > 0:23:01# To see my Uncle Sam. #
0:23:01 > 0:23:03The Government had to fight a rearguard action
0:23:03 > 0:23:06in the US, to prevent American states' pension funds
0:23:06 > 0:23:09and companies from adopting the MacBride Principles.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12What would be tragic
0:23:12 > 0:23:15if people of good intent,
0:23:15 > 0:23:19of the best possible motive but with, unfortunately,
0:23:19 > 0:23:24a misguided approach to this problem were actually to pursue
0:23:24 > 0:23:28policies that may discourage further investment.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31Bob Cooper wanted tougher fair employment laws
0:23:31 > 0:23:35but thought MacBride's threat of disinvestment went too far.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39The people who are going to suffer from the enactment of this
0:23:39 > 0:23:41type of legislation are the people who are my former
0:23:41 > 0:23:43constituents in West Belfast.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47He was acting under pressure from the Government in London,
0:23:47 > 0:23:50from the Republic's Government in Dublin, let alone
0:23:50 > 0:23:53the Nationalists in Northern Ireland, Washington and Brussels.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56In a sense, there is an implication, since they are tied in with
0:23:56 > 0:23:59the South African investment and disinvestment measures,
0:23:59 > 0:24:02there's a sort of implication that it's slightly discreditable
0:24:02 > 0:24:05for an American company to invest in Northern Ireland.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07He came to the conclusion,
0:24:07 > 0:24:08"I can live with the Unionist pressure
0:24:08 > 0:24:13"if I keep the international people happy, and their picture is, employ more Catholics."
0:24:13 > 0:24:15That was the whole regime.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18Faced with the prospect of a massive loss of American investment,
0:24:18 > 0:24:21the Government introduced a new Fair Employment Act.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24Having spent five years campaigning against the misguided
0:24:24 > 0:24:27MacBride Principles, the Government more or less adopted
0:24:27 > 0:24:31most of them in the new Fair Employment Act of 1989.
0:24:31 > 0:24:37I will have very little sympathy indeed for those who seek
0:24:37 > 0:24:40to create problems or who point to difficulties,
0:24:40 > 0:24:44when merely that is an excuse for a latent sectarianism which they
0:24:44 > 0:24:49may be seeking to preserve in whichever area they operate.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52The 1989 Fair Employment Act was the toughest
0:24:52 > 0:24:56piece of anti-discrimination law in Europe, and who introduced it?
0:24:56 > 0:24:58Margaret Thatcher.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00Yes, Margaret Thatcher!
0:25:00 > 0:25:03And does she get a word of thanks in West Belfast?
0:25:03 > 0:25:05Does she... Frankly, no!
0:25:05 > 0:25:08I wouldn't give any nod of thanks to Margaret Thatcher for anything,
0:25:08 > 0:25:11given her very poor reputation.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14I think sometimes the British Government on these things,
0:25:14 > 0:25:19more out of care for their own interests than for anybody else's,
0:25:19 > 0:25:21ie not being accused by the Americans of discriminating
0:25:21 > 0:25:23against Catholics.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26People in Northern Ireland want
0:25:26 > 0:25:29to know that they are living
0:25:29 > 0:25:31in a fair and just society.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34In which the laws are fair, in which
0:25:34 > 0:25:38there is equality of opportunity.
0:25:38 > 0:25:39The old FEA went.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42There was a new Fair Employment Commission, or FEC,
0:25:42 > 0:25:44and they had a far larger staff.
0:25:44 > 0:25:48They could initiate investigations against employers and stop employers
0:25:48 > 0:25:51getting Government contracts if they didn't like what they saw.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55The 1989 Act required employers to monitor their workers.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58For the first time, they had to reveal the numbers of Catholics
0:25:58 > 0:25:59and Protestants they employed.
0:26:00 > 0:26:05I'll have to start asking questions that I've never asked in my life.
0:26:05 > 0:26:10I have never felt it important to ask anybody's religion
0:26:10 > 0:26:12when I'm going to employ them as a sheet metal worker.
0:26:12 > 0:26:14There were those who said,
0:26:14 > 0:26:18if you start doing a kind of head count, a sectarian head count
0:26:18 > 0:26:21within the workforce, it will put worker against worker.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24You're talking about enforced monitoring.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27People being brought into the position of enforced
0:26:27 > 0:26:29sectarianism in the workforce.
0:26:29 > 0:26:31That is what it's going to be.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33People are going to be recruited on the basis
0:26:33 > 0:26:37of the fact that they are a minority Catholic or a minority Protestant.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40Staff from the FEC would have to go in with a pile of personnel forms
0:26:40 > 0:26:41and go through them.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44Where people had identified themselves as undetermined,
0:26:44 > 0:26:47you would do it by name, you would do it by school,
0:26:47 > 0:26:51and doing it that way helped explain why there wasn't quite
0:26:51 > 0:26:54the number of Shi'ite Muslims in Ballylumford power station
0:26:54 > 0:26:58as first came through on the returns.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01Some companies reported that they had a very low,
0:27:01 > 0:27:05and I mean a VERY low number of persons of one religion.
0:27:05 > 0:27:09We immediately began work with those companies to establish
0:27:09 > 0:27:12why and what were the reasons, and what would bring about change?
0:27:12 > 0:27:14For the first time, individuals could take
0:27:14 > 0:27:18complaints of discrimination to a public tribunal.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20And this is where I come in.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22The FEC's job was to eliminate discrimination
0:27:22 > 0:27:27and to enforce tough new laws, so they employed a comedian.
0:27:27 > 0:27:28PHONE RINGS
0:27:28 > 0:27:29Hello.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33New complaint, OK, thank you.
0:27:33 > 0:27:34Yes, they gave me a job
0:27:34 > 0:27:37and then they decided that one comedian wasn't enough.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40So, they also employed Michael McDowell,
0:27:40 > 0:27:43better known as Billy, the peeler from Give My Head Peace.
0:27:43 > 0:27:45We were employed as complaints officers
0:27:45 > 0:27:47and our job was to help individuals who had
0:27:47 > 0:27:51complaints of discrimination to take their case to tribunal.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55For me, it was about how people were treated in the workplace,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58so you know, I just thought it was wrong that somebody should be
0:27:58 > 0:28:00subjected to sectarian harassment.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03I thought it was wrong that somebody didn't get a job
0:28:03 > 0:28:05because of their perceived religion.
0:28:05 > 0:28:09We all know about the compensation culture, you know the kind of thing.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12People suing the X Factor because they got Louis Walsh as a mentor.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14Well, there were real fears that
0:28:14 > 0:28:16when the Fair Employment Act was introduced,
0:28:16 > 0:28:19that would attract these no-hopers, these time-wasters,
0:28:19 > 0:28:21these people who think taking a case of discrimination
0:28:21 > 0:28:23was like winning the lottery.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26The reality, however, was a lot different.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29To say, I have worked somewhere or I have attempted to work
0:28:29 > 0:28:32somewhere and the reason I've not got the job there or the reason
0:28:32 > 0:28:35I'm dissatisfied with what has happened is because I have
0:28:35 > 0:28:38suffered discrimination on grounds of my religion or my political belief.
0:28:38 > 0:28:42It's just as sensitive as you can get in Northern Ireland.
0:28:42 > 0:28:46The case involved a security firm and a young girl who had
0:28:46 > 0:28:50suffered pretty systemic harassment throughout her employment.
0:28:50 > 0:28:52She'd actually put up with, maybe,
0:28:52 > 0:28:54three or four years of this behaviour.
0:28:54 > 0:28:57One particular incident that she'd complained about was
0:28:57 > 0:28:59when the Corporals were murdered, they had left all
0:28:59 > 0:29:02the pictures of the Corporals being murdered on her desk.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05She'd been out to lunch and these were all lying, opened, on her
0:29:05 > 0:29:09desk because she was effectively the only Catholic working in that place.
0:29:09 > 0:29:11LOUD EXPLOSION
0:29:13 > 0:29:15Times were very different back then.
0:29:15 > 0:29:17In the early 1990s, the IRA
0:29:17 > 0:29:19and Loyalist campaigns were in full flight.
0:29:19 > 0:29:22This was the era of proxy bombs, of random shootings,
0:29:22 > 0:29:25and of mortars fired at Downing Street.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27And workers don't live in a bubble.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29What was happening out on the streets
0:29:29 > 0:29:31often crept into the workplace.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33Belfast's Shankill Road, this morning.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36One of the areas which the UFF, in their statement yesterday,
0:29:36 > 0:29:39said Catholics shouldn't go to work in,
0:29:39 > 0:29:42but major firms contacted today said they had no signs
0:29:42 > 0:29:45that their Catholic employees had refused to come in.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48Here, there were many people going to work,
0:29:48 > 0:29:51not for very large salaries, mind you,
0:29:51 > 0:29:54and they were risking life and limb,
0:29:54 > 0:29:57while they were going to, coming from work.
0:29:57 > 0:30:03And they were heading toward a workplace where the atmosphere
0:30:03 > 0:30:05was anything but friendly.
0:30:05 > 0:30:10You know, in many ways they were the real heroes
0:30:10 > 0:30:13of the Fair Employment world.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16While making this programme, we contacted a number of people
0:30:16 > 0:30:19who had taken and won cases of religious discrimination.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21But almost without exception,
0:30:21 > 0:30:25they declined the offer to talk about their experience on camera.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27Even 20 years on,
0:30:27 > 0:30:31issues of discrimination remain controversial and sensitive.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33It was a major decision to take.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36If you recall at that time, in the early '90s,
0:30:36 > 0:30:39in terms of the general environment, it was mayhem here.
0:30:39 > 0:30:41It was the middle of the conflict.
0:30:41 > 0:30:45Also, I had a very young family then.
0:30:45 > 0:30:47My two daughter were aged two and four.
0:30:47 > 0:30:50I was working full-time and studying part-time for a degree
0:30:50 > 0:30:52and had lost my mother to cancer the year before.
0:30:52 > 0:30:54All personal stuff as well.
0:30:54 > 0:30:56It makes it difficult because you're entering
0:30:56 > 0:30:58into these things, you don't take it lightly.
0:30:58 > 0:31:01What it said was that tribunals should be structured in a way
0:31:01 > 0:31:03that a person could walk in off the street
0:31:03 > 0:31:05and be able to represent themselves.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08I didn't find that experience at all.
0:31:08 > 0:31:10They tended to be very heavy with lawyers,
0:31:10 > 0:31:13employed by both sides in those... certainly in those initial cases.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16It was conducted very much as, I would imagine,
0:31:16 > 0:31:19a major criminal case would be conducted.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22A shudder went through employers.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25Suddenly, a failure to take the new legislation seriously could
0:31:25 > 0:31:29cost a company an awful lot of money, as well as their reputation.
0:31:29 > 0:31:33A headline along the lines of "£25,000 paid for case
0:31:33 > 0:31:37"of unlawful discrimination", you know, focuses attention.
0:31:37 > 0:31:39We had cameramen from early morning
0:31:39 > 0:31:42if there was any particular case of interest on.
0:31:42 > 0:31:47So, that was an additional hurdle that applicants had to encounter.
0:31:47 > 0:31:48People were able to read in the papers,
0:31:48 > 0:31:51what this particular firm had got up to or what it's employees had
0:31:51 > 0:31:54got up to, and that had a terrible impact and, you know,
0:31:54 > 0:31:56I don't know what effect that had on their suppliers,
0:31:56 > 0:31:57the people they were working for.
0:31:57 > 0:32:00There must have been questions asked, and that was a wake-up call
0:32:00 > 0:32:02to a lot of employers that this couldn't go on.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05Many cases actually settled before they reached the tribunal.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08Many employers said they only settled, even though
0:32:08 > 0:32:11they hadn't discriminated, because they were afraid of losing
0:32:11 > 0:32:14or because of the cost of defending themselves.
0:32:14 > 0:32:16Whereas the FEC thought many employers only settled
0:32:16 > 0:32:19because they knew their case was hopeless.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22You'd ask, "Why do you feel you've been discriminated against?"
0:32:22 > 0:32:24And they'd say, "Well, they make me go for the tea
0:32:24 > 0:32:27"or I have to get the sandwiches or I do more photocopying than anybody else."
0:32:27 > 0:32:30We had a case like that, and it wasn't really going terribly well.
0:32:30 > 0:32:32It was the third day in, he said,
0:32:32 > 0:32:34"I don't know if this is relevant
0:32:34 > 0:32:36"but I was given this on my birthday."
0:32:36 > 0:32:38And he produced this medallion,
0:32:38 > 0:32:42which had a ribbon in the colours of the Irish tricolour,
0:32:42 > 0:32:47but written on the medallion was, "Fenian-cy of the year award."
0:32:47 > 0:32:48HE LAUGHS
0:32:50 > 0:32:53So, this had been given by his employers, and that
0:32:53 > 0:32:55kind of changed the dynamics of the case.
0:32:55 > 0:32:57So, we brought it around to the other side,
0:32:57 > 0:33:00and as soon as they saw this thing, they settled immediately.
0:33:00 > 0:33:04In landmark cases, the list of employers who were either
0:33:04 > 0:33:07found guilty of discrimination or who admitted to it included
0:33:07 > 0:33:11local and district councils, major retailers, manufacturers,
0:33:11 > 0:33:14car companies, security firms, health boards.
0:33:14 > 0:33:16The Government had introduced the legislation
0:33:16 > 0:33:19but even Government departments were being sued.
0:33:19 > 0:33:20And, crucially,
0:33:20 > 0:33:23the commission didn't just take cases alleging Protestant bias,
0:33:23 > 0:33:25but they also took and won
0:33:25 > 0:33:28a number of cases against mainly Catholic employers,
0:33:28 > 0:33:31proving that discrimination in Northern Ireland affected
0:33:31 > 0:33:32both communities.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34There were, clearly,
0:33:34 > 0:33:36workplaces which had a very low proportion of Protestants
0:33:36 > 0:33:39and the agency and commission worked as fervently with those companies as
0:33:39 > 0:33:43they did with companies that had an under-representation of Catholics.
0:33:43 > 0:33:45The decisions of the tribunal carried a lot of weight
0:33:45 > 0:33:47and it made a lot of employers wake up and take notice and say,
0:33:47 > 0:33:49"Look, we don't really need
0:33:49 > 0:33:51"A - the publicity that surrounds a case.
0:33:51 > 0:33:55"B - a decision from a court saying that we're discriminators
0:33:55 > 0:33:58"And, thirdly, the amount of money we have to pay out for this."
0:33:58 > 0:34:01So, I think that was absolutely critical in turning around
0:34:01 > 0:34:03the equality agenda in Northern Ireland.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07Bigger firms and public-sector employers quickly got
0:34:07 > 0:34:11the message and it soon filtered down to smaller companies.
0:34:11 > 0:34:14The old ways of a nod, a wink and getting a job
0:34:14 > 0:34:17because of which foot you kicked with were on their way out.
0:34:17 > 0:34:20And a number of cases were also taken to ensure
0:34:20 > 0:34:23the removal of flags, emblems and bunting from the workplace.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25Gone were the days of the mini-Twelfth
0:34:25 > 0:34:27around the factory floor.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30One of the shop stewards said,
0:34:30 > 0:34:32"Right, are you telling us that
0:34:32 > 0:34:37"if someone puts a flag on the end of a jib of a crane, that
0:34:37 > 0:34:40"Bob Cooper would come and take it down?" And I said, "Yes, he would.
0:34:40 > 0:34:41"Next question, please?"
0:34:41 > 0:34:45The Fair Employment Act of 1989 worked.
0:34:45 > 0:34:47Workplaces were more neutral, more integrated.
0:34:47 > 0:34:50The religious breakdown of the workforce, more or less,
0:34:50 > 0:34:53reflects the population of Northern Ireland.
0:34:53 > 0:34:56The Act changed Northern Ireland's society dramatically
0:34:56 > 0:34:59and effectively removed religious discrimination
0:34:59 > 0:35:00as a huge political issue.
0:35:00 > 0:35:02Well, until recently.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05SHE SCREAMS: No surrender!
0:35:05 > 0:35:06MUSIC: "I Predict A Riot" by Kaiser Chiefs
0:35:06 > 0:35:08# Watching the people get lairy
0:35:08 > 0:35:11# It's not very pretty, I tell thee
0:35:11 > 0:35:14# Walking through town is quite scary
0:35:14 > 0:35:16# Not very sensible either...#
0:35:16 > 0:35:19The removal of the Union flag from the City Hall,
0:35:19 > 0:35:21except on designated days,
0:35:21 > 0:35:23is a direct result of equality legislation.
0:35:25 > 0:35:28So, before we go patting ourselves on the back,
0:35:28 > 0:35:32perhaps it's time to ask, have things gone too far?
0:35:32 > 0:35:34# I predict a riot
0:35:34 > 0:35:36# I predict a riot! #
0:35:36 > 0:35:39I refer to it as the swinging of the pendulum.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42I think now, the most disadvantaged thing to be
0:35:42 > 0:35:46in Northern Ireland is a Protestant male.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50We had the case of the police service in Northern Ireland,
0:35:50 > 0:35:52for ten years, where we had this 50/50 rule,
0:35:52 > 0:35:56which was a specific religious bar on recruiting
0:35:56 > 0:35:59numbers of Protestants because too many Protestants applied,
0:35:59 > 0:36:02and therefore numbers were excluded specifically on their religion.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04Now, within the civil service,
0:36:04 > 0:36:08if you are a Catholic applicant,
0:36:08 > 0:36:11probably a female applicant,
0:36:11 > 0:36:17your chances of promotion through the ranks seems to be enhanced.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20It is certainly true to say that the Fair Employment Act has not
0:36:20 > 0:36:22been the answer to all our problems.
0:36:22 > 0:36:26What they should be targeting is the "haves" and the "have-nots",
0:36:26 > 0:36:31whether they be Catholic, Protestant or of no religion.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33The big difference and problems in Northern Ireland
0:36:33 > 0:36:36are between those who have and those who have not,
0:36:36 > 0:36:38and we know what that means.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41We're still very segregated, erm, along religious lines.
0:36:41 > 0:36:44We still live in our ghettos.
0:36:44 > 0:36:46We still live in areas where people don't know each other
0:36:46 > 0:36:49and have no notion of getting to know each other.
0:36:49 > 0:36:51So, there's still a lot of work to be done,
0:36:51 > 0:36:54in terms of building peace and breaking down those barriers
0:36:54 > 0:36:57because that's where discrimination and prejudice come from,
0:36:57 > 0:36:58not knowing one another.
0:36:58 > 0:37:02It may well be in the future, in places like Newry and Derry
0:37:02 > 0:37:06and so on, that the Fair Employment legislation will be to the
0:37:06 > 0:37:09Unionists' or Protestants' advantage.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12So, did the Fair Employment Act really make Northern Ireland
0:37:12 > 0:37:13a better place?
0:37:13 > 0:37:18We still have a way to go, but are we on the right track? Absolutely.
0:37:18 > 0:37:21Did the Fair Employment Act contribute to that? Absolutely.
0:37:21 > 0:37:24Do you sometimes wish you'd got that job as a car mechanic?
0:37:24 > 0:37:27Well, you talked about "here we are now", well, LOOK where we are now.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30- Sitting here in Stormont.- If you had that job as a car mechanic,
0:37:30 > 0:37:32you wouldn't have ended up here.
0:37:32 > 0:37:36Yeah, well, I think that, you know, it's all very, very interesting
0:37:36 > 0:37:38but it's all very serious.
0:37:38 > 0:37:40When I look around now and see the change...
0:37:40 > 0:37:43I mean, you don't hear very often
0:37:43 > 0:37:46of cases of religious discrimination any more.
0:37:46 > 0:37:49And I hope that's because the system is better,
0:37:49 > 0:37:54employers try harder and workers feel they are covered and protected.
0:37:56 > 0:37:58I think peace, in this country,
0:37:58 > 0:38:00could not have been achieved without the work
0:38:00 > 0:38:05of the Fair Employment Commission, creating equality in the workplace.
0:38:05 > 0:38:08It was a serious running sore for Northern Ireland.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10Whatever it is that divides us today,
0:38:10 > 0:38:13it's rarely said to be sectarianism in employment.
0:38:13 > 0:38:17Religious discrimination no longer forces people to march or protest.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20Of course, the act has now been extended to include
0:38:20 > 0:38:23sex and race and disability, and even age.
0:38:23 > 0:38:25That's why you have to fill in all those stupid forms.
0:38:25 > 0:38:29On the plus side, however, if you have recently got a job
0:38:29 > 0:38:32it's probably because you were the best candidate for it.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34So, well done!
0:38:34 > 0:38:39And give a little nod of thanks to the Fair Employment Act of 1989.
0:38:39 > 0:38:42MUSIC: "Sweetest Feeling" by Jackie Wilson
0:38:42 > 0:38:44# Sweetest feeling
0:38:44 > 0:38:45# Baby, the sweetest
0:38:45 > 0:38:48# Sweetest feeling
0:38:48 > 0:38:49# Honey, the sweetest
0:38:49 > 0:38:51# Sweetest feeling
0:38:51 > 0:38:55# Loving you! #