0:00:02 > 0:00:04This programme contains very strong language
0:00:04 > 0:00:07This programme contains scenes which some viewers may find disturbing
0:00:07 > 0:00:09In 2011, at Camp Bastion in Afghanistan,
0:00:09 > 0:00:13I watched a company of Royal Marines Commandoes heading deep into hostile territory.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15Their mission was to set up a new patrol base
0:00:15 > 0:00:18as a lure to attract the enemy to them.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22They're going in effectively as human bait
0:00:22 > 0:00:24and they're going to invite attack.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28One, two, delta, get our Bergens on the flatbed,
0:00:28 > 0:00:30then load on to that first coach.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35This is a very, very risky mission indeed.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38The place is reportedly crawling with insurgents.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41All right, fellas, start getting in your order and march.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44Now 100 Royal Marines are heading out tonight.
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Of course, everybody is praying that 100 Royal Marines
0:00:47 > 0:00:49will eventually return.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53I had my fears,
0:00:53 > 0:00:55but as I watched those men depart,
0:00:55 > 0:00:58I could never have imagined the fate that awaited them.
0:00:59 > 0:01:02Of these marines, three were to die.
0:01:02 > 0:01:0420 were to be seriously injured.
0:01:04 > 0:01:08And one, eventually to be known to everybody as Marine A,
0:01:08 > 0:01:11was to commit a battlefield crime so serious,
0:01:11 > 0:01:13that it was to send shockwaves around the world.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20A Royal Marine is found guilty of murdering an Afghan insurgent in cold blood.
0:01:20 > 0:01:25Evidence from a helmet camera showed how the injured Afghan was shot in the chest.
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Senior commanders condemn what happened.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31It was a truly shocking and appalling aberration.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35It should not have happened, and it should never happen again.
0:01:35 > 0:01:40In my letters I write to him. I always put, "Very proud of you, son.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43"You haven't disgraced yourself. You haven't disgraced us."
0:01:45 > 0:01:49He's murdered somebody, and murder is murder.
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Murder is murder never really applies
0:01:53 > 0:01:55because all murders are different.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59Who's to say in the ebb and flow of a fire fight,
0:01:59 > 0:02:01when all these things are going on around you,
0:02:01 > 0:02:04who among us might not do the same thing?
0:02:07 > 0:02:12Marine A is the first British serviceman to be convicted of murder on active service
0:02:12 > 0:02:13since the Second World War.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19But was the killing a tactical decision? Was it a mercy killing?
0:02:19 > 0:02:23Or was it a battlefield execution prompted by revenge and hatred?
0:02:23 > 0:02:25The act of a man traumatised by war.
0:02:36 > 0:02:38Deliver a ray of fire now, lads.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40GUNFIRE
0:02:40 > 0:02:44When I first heard that it was a Royal Marine arrested for
0:02:44 > 0:02:48the cold-blooded murder of a badly injured Taliban insurgent,
0:02:48 > 0:02:50I have to admit I was shocked to the core.
0:02:51 > 0:02:53As a filmmaker,
0:02:53 > 0:02:56I have been privileged to train with the Royal Marines, live with them
0:02:56 > 0:02:59and go to war with them on many occasions in Afghanistan.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01Get down into cover.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04GUNFIRE
0:03:04 > 0:03:05Quickly get down low.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08We're under heavy attack.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10Taliban are fighting back hard.
0:03:11 > 0:03:16Now, these men normally espouse a strong ethos of ferocity in battle,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18but magnanimity in victory.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21And alongside them I've experienced the mind-bending terror
0:03:21 > 0:03:23and thrill of combat.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29I've known marines who've been killed in action,
0:03:29 > 0:03:32and I've known many who have suffered horrific life-changing injuries.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39So, cards on the table,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42I don't come to this story as a dispassionate observer,
0:03:42 > 0:03:45I come as a passionate one.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48It's not just that I want to know what happened on that fateful day,
0:03:48 > 0:03:50I need to know.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54Marine A, who was eventually revealed as a five-tour veteran
0:03:54 > 0:03:58who'd seen action in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan,
0:03:58 > 0:04:02by all accounts a fine soldier, with an unblemished record,
0:04:02 > 0:04:04and who'd been marked for promotion.
0:04:04 > 0:04:10He was 39-year-old Sergeant Alexander Blackman.
0:04:10 > 0:04:11So what sort of man is he?
0:04:13 > 0:04:14He's amazing.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16Never met anybody like him.
0:04:16 > 0:04:17He's just so...
0:04:18 > 0:04:23..gentle and calm and generous and...
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Yes, he's a big softie.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29Is your husband a murderer?
0:04:29 > 0:04:31Absolutely not.
0:04:31 > 0:04:32No way, no shape, no form.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36Just categorically, no.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39Even though he was convicted as one?
0:04:39 > 0:04:44I don't know that I know what defines somebody as a murderer,
0:04:44 > 0:04:49but everything that defines Al points me
0:04:49 > 0:04:54and everybody else in completely the opposite direction.
0:04:54 > 0:04:59I'll love him no matter what and I know he's had to make difficult...
0:05:01 > 0:05:05Different choices and things that I wouldn't want to have to make personally,
0:05:05 > 0:05:09but it's war, it's not the black and white wars that we want them to be,
0:05:09 > 0:05:10it's every shade of grey in between.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15I'm not ashamed of him cos he was doing his job,
0:05:15 > 0:05:19he was doing his duty to the country and everybody in this country,
0:05:19 > 0:05:23and the Queen, and that's what he was sent out to do -
0:05:23 > 0:05:25to get rid of the insurgents.
0:05:27 > 0:05:32The trouble is that we're trying very hard to rationalise something
0:05:32 > 0:05:35that happened in a warzone,
0:05:35 > 0:05:39in a different country, on the other side of the world,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43in circumstances that none of us will ever begin to understand.
0:05:47 > 0:05:48It's true.
0:05:48 > 0:05:51Nobody could imagine real war. You have to be there.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53Well, back in 2011, I was,
0:05:53 > 0:05:56and I discovered that by complete coincidence
0:05:56 > 0:05:59it was Sergeant Blackman's company I had filmed heading out from
0:05:59 > 0:06:01Camp Bastion to enemy territory.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07Less than two weeks later, after they had come under sustained
0:06:07 > 0:06:10and heavy attack and taken many casualties,
0:06:10 > 0:06:14they were relieved temporarily by another company of Royal Marines,
0:06:14 > 0:06:16a company that I was embedded in.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20So I flew into exactly the same place that Sergeant Blackman had been serving in
0:06:20 > 0:06:22and was to serve in again,
0:06:22 > 0:06:25and where a few months on, he was to shoot that insurgent.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33This beleaguered British outpost called Toki
0:06:33 > 0:06:37was nothing short of a death trap set in the middle of what was described to me then as
0:06:37 > 0:06:40the most dangerous square mile in the world.
0:06:41 > 0:06:45The main threat will be IEDs. Actions on contact IED.
0:06:45 > 0:06:50Treat yourself, if you've got any arms or legs left.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53I'll call in the helo,
0:06:53 > 0:06:56you should be at Bastion within 21 minutes.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59My time at this place was to give me an intimate insight
0:06:59 > 0:07:03into a brutally unforgiving way of life.
0:07:03 > 0:07:04They think that they'll only have a go at us
0:07:04 > 0:07:08if they think that we are vulnerable or they'll get away with it.
0:07:08 > 0:07:09And that's what it's all about.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12Engaging them on our terms when they think they're OK.
0:07:12 > 0:07:13The key thing is to try and kill them.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16If you get the chance, that's the priority.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20The men's job was to seek out the Taliban who had been intimidating
0:07:20 > 0:07:22the local villagers and farmers for years.
0:07:22 > 0:07:27The marines were there primarily to protect the local Afghan people.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30Everybody keeping a sharp lookout for...
0:07:31 > 0:07:34..anybody watching us basically, and there's bound to be.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36You can't see them at the moment,
0:07:36 > 0:07:39but they'll be monitoring our movements all the way.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42If we repeat our routes, it's easier to catch us out
0:07:42 > 0:07:44and lay those killer traps.
0:07:45 > 0:07:50So, every footstep taken, very gingerly, believe me.
0:07:51 > 0:07:57And all this in this scorching heat. It's about 50 degrees today.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59Feels more like 100 degrees.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08By the time I got to Toki, four men had been killed
0:08:08 > 0:08:12and many more injured, all through booby traps and mines.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15The best word to describe them is fucking cowards.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17They realise they can't stand and fight us,
0:08:17 > 0:08:19they're just resorting to dirty tactics.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22And to prove how cowardice they are,
0:08:22 > 0:08:24they get children to do their dirty work for them,
0:08:24 > 0:08:27send them out to watch us then reporting to us, and women.
0:08:27 > 0:08:30If they want to flipping take us on, take us on.
0:08:30 > 0:08:32Don't be fucking pussies about it.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35I fucking hate them, all of them.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37Well, was Sergeant Blackman a marine
0:08:37 > 0:08:40who couldn't contain that sort of emotion?
0:08:40 > 0:08:42Whilst he could still be ferocious in battle,
0:08:42 > 0:08:46had he lost that famous Royal Marine ability to be magnanimous in victory?
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Had he simply lost the plot?
0:08:50 > 0:08:54The incident was captured on a fellow marine's head camera.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57For legal reasons I can't show you the moving footage,
0:08:57 > 0:09:00but I can play you still frames and let you hear some of the audio.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02INDISTINCT COMMENT ON RECORDING
0:09:02 > 0:09:05It all started with an Apache helicopter attack
0:09:05 > 0:09:08that left a Taliban insurgent severely injured.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12What followed in these cornfields spanned at least 40 minutes.
0:09:21 > 0:09:25Sgt Blackman and his men drag the insurgent across a field
0:09:25 > 0:09:28and discuss what to do with him.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33No.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36They'd already found and removed a live grenade
0:09:36 > 0:09:41and a weapon hidden in the insurgent's clothes.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Next comes an indication that, despite initial reluctance,
0:09:44 > 0:09:48they at least go through the motions of patching the insurgent up.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58And then some sporadic talk about calling in a helicopter
0:09:58 > 0:10:01to evacuate the insurgent as a battlefield casualty.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15And there, a radio message to suggest that the insurgent was dead.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20Then, a few minutes later, a gunshot.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23SINGLE GUNSHOT
0:10:23 > 0:10:27Sgt Blackman discharging his weapon into the insurgent's chest.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30If he was not dead, he is now.
0:10:46 > 0:10:50Deed done. But as far as his court martial was concerned,
0:10:50 > 0:10:53this was not the desecration of a corpse
0:10:53 > 0:10:55but a cold-blooded battlefield execution
0:10:55 > 0:10:57recorded on one of these,
0:10:57 > 0:11:00although Sgt Blackman didn't know it at the time.
0:11:02 > 0:11:07So, Blackman, caught red-handed, guilty as charged,
0:11:07 > 0:11:10bang to rights. But his conviction of murder,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13a life sentence of ten years without parole
0:11:13 > 0:11:16and dismissed with disgrace from the Royal Marines
0:11:16 > 0:11:20has, at a stroke, provoked strong public reaction
0:11:20 > 0:11:21and divided opinion.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24CROWD SINGS NATIONAL ANTHEM
0:11:24 > 0:11:27SHOUTING
0:11:27 > 0:11:30This is the day of sentencing for the killers of Lee Rigby,
0:11:30 > 0:11:32the British soldier brutally murdered by
0:11:32 > 0:11:35Muslim extremists on a south London street.
0:11:35 > 0:11:38# Send her victorious... #
0:11:38 > 0:11:41The killing horrified the nation
0:11:41 > 0:11:43and many here now are ex-servicemen
0:11:43 > 0:11:46who have come to express their outrage.
0:11:46 > 0:11:51You can see that all around me now, there's a lot of passion.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53- Brits are proud. - CROWD: Fighting back.
0:11:53 > 0:11:55- Brits are proud. - CROWD: Fighting back.
0:11:55 > 0:11:59A lot of people round here have got very distinct views, very real views, very strong views
0:11:59 > 0:12:02about the justice that is involved in this.
0:12:02 > 0:12:06And of course, they've got equally strong opinions about Marine A
0:12:06 > 0:12:08and his conviction.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12He was in a theatre of war and it shouldn't even have gone as far as court. Simple as that.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14The whole justice system in this country
0:12:14 > 0:12:17has literally been flipped upside down.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20We're sending our soldiers to jail for life for doing their job,
0:12:20 > 0:12:24but we're allowing paedophiles and murderers to roam the streets. I think it's an absolute disgrace.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Our soldiers have seen their mates being strung up
0:12:26 > 0:12:28and hung up in trees, chopped to bits.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30That's got to have an effect on somebody.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32He doesn't deserve a sentence.
0:12:32 > 0:12:38How can it be possibly be murder? You're sent to a warzone to kill...
0:12:38 > 0:12:42He's a marine. His job is to kill, and his job was to kill terrorists.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47Ladies and gentlemen, on the 10th of April in this very building,
0:12:47 > 0:12:50there's going to be an appeal by Marine A, Sergeant Blackman,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53so if everyone's willing, we're going to be back here
0:12:53 > 0:12:57on April 10th to show our solidarity for a true British hero
0:12:57 > 0:13:00who has risked his life for this country. All right?
0:13:00 > 0:13:02APPLAUSE
0:13:02 > 0:13:03Perhaps not surprisingly,
0:13:03 > 0:13:07here there is nigh on universal support for Sergeant Blackman.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10But this is just one pole of opinion.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13And let's not forget, the background to his conviction is
0:13:13 > 0:13:16- as he admitted - the breaking of the Geneva Convention.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22NEWSREADER: It is only for the protection of prisoners...
0:13:22 > 0:13:24the sick and wounded...
0:13:24 > 0:13:26And the non-combatant civilians that Article 3
0:13:26 > 0:13:29of the Geneva Conventions applies.
0:13:29 > 0:13:33International law prohibits the following - murder, torture,
0:13:33 > 0:13:37cruel treatment of prisoners or taking hostages,
0:13:37 > 0:13:42humiliating or degrading treatment of prisoners,
0:13:42 > 0:13:44illegal sentencing and execution of prisoners without
0:13:44 > 0:13:47a fair trial by a regularly constituted court.
0:13:50 > 0:13:51RIFLES CRACK
0:13:53 > 0:13:57The Geneva Convention has actually been around since 1864,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00and most recently revised in 1949.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05There was a massive revulsion post-Second World War to what
0:14:05 > 0:14:09had happened, and that's why you need rules,
0:14:09 > 0:14:12because if the human being is left to their own devices,
0:14:12 > 0:14:13they do bad things.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17So your view of Alexander Blackman?
0:14:17 > 0:14:20My view is he's let himself down, his family down,
0:14:20 > 0:14:23his regiment down, his country down.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26He's murdered somebody, and murder is murder,
0:14:26 > 0:14:30whether it's on the streets of London or in Afghanistan.
0:14:30 > 0:14:35And people who confuse the debate with fog-of-war type arguments,
0:14:35 > 0:14:38"He's on active duty, he somehow deserves some
0:14:38 > 0:14:40"extra element of discretion", that's nonsense.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43It was a murder, he was found guilty of murder,
0:14:43 > 0:14:46he deserves the sentence he received in my view.
0:14:47 > 0:14:52Clearly everyone has an opinion about Marine A, Sergeant Blackman -
0:14:52 > 0:14:55some condemning him, some condoning him.
0:14:55 > 0:14:59But the ethical and moral issues his case throws up are profound.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03Marine A should be serving a prison sentence.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06He committed an atrocity, he knew it was an atrocity,
0:15:06 > 0:15:09he laughed about the Geneva Conventions,
0:15:09 > 0:15:15so, yes, it is completely appropriate that he is punished for that.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17War is not a free-for-all,
0:15:17 > 0:15:22we train our soldiers to not only kill people,
0:15:22 > 0:15:25but also to not kill people, to know where that line is,
0:15:25 > 0:15:30and we can't simply have people breaking the laws of war.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32We have seen in previous conflicts,
0:15:32 > 0:15:34the Vietnam War being the most obvious one,
0:15:34 > 0:15:39where there was huge complicity with the committing of atrocities,
0:15:39 > 0:15:43and once you start doing that it very rapidly escalates
0:15:43 > 0:15:45and becomes an even more serious issue.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51So, yes, it is completely right that he was convicted
0:15:51 > 0:15:54and that he is being punished for it.
0:15:54 > 0:15:56It's not a straightforward situation,
0:15:56 > 0:15:59there are two different moral imperatives.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02One is that you shouldn't kill,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05and the other is that if you put people in extreme situations
0:16:05 > 0:16:10and ask them to act on your behalf, you can't be as judgmental
0:16:10 > 0:16:14as you would be about an ordinary murder in the street.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20The thing that keeps soldiers fighting isn't
0:16:20 > 0:16:22love of democracy, or Queen and country,
0:16:22 > 0:16:24or the things that people say,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27it's loyalty to the little troop of people around them
0:16:27 > 0:16:28that they've trained with,
0:16:28 > 0:16:31and they will put their lives on the line for the other people
0:16:31 > 0:16:35in that group in a way that they know the others will do for them.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38And that sense of loyalty and solidarity,
0:16:38 > 0:16:41it's summed up in the phrase "a sacred band of brothers",
0:16:41 > 0:16:44and the word "sacred" is not incidental there,
0:16:44 > 0:16:47it goes to something really deep in the human psyche.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50So that kind of loyalty will make you rush out
0:16:50 > 0:16:52and draw fire, so that your colleagues
0:16:52 > 0:16:58can escape to safety, but it will also make you feel...
0:16:58 > 0:17:01you need revenge for the wrongs that have been done to your colleagues.
0:17:09 > 0:17:11Dave Devenney was a Royal Marines commander
0:17:11 > 0:17:14who fought in the Falklands War.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17On leaving the forces he was ordained in the Church of Scotland.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20He then returned to the Royal Marines as a chaplain.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23He has special insight into battlefield behaviour.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28It's very difficult for many young men and women
0:17:28 > 0:17:30in conflict in Afghanistan to try
0:17:30 > 0:17:33and get inside the minds of the people who are trying to kill them.
0:17:33 > 0:17:38So they're one step emotionally removed from the people
0:17:38 > 0:17:41they're called on to go out and engage.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43They can't relate, they find it very difficult,
0:17:43 > 0:17:45they see them as completely barbaric sometimes,
0:17:45 > 0:17:51and when things happen on the battlefield, there's been instances
0:17:51 > 0:17:57of soldiers who've been captured, killed, skinned alive, dismembered
0:17:57 > 0:18:02and their body parts left out to warn off other members of patrols.
0:18:02 > 0:18:06So that's quite a tough situation to find yourself in,
0:18:06 > 0:18:10and I can understand sometimes, when you get young men and women in
0:18:10 > 0:18:14that situation, there's almost a sense, a temptation, to feel
0:18:14 > 0:18:17"Hang on a second, all the bets are off here.
0:18:17 > 0:18:23"We're playing to a certain set of rules, but these guys aren't.
0:18:23 > 0:18:27"And they would kill us like dogs as soon as they catch us."
0:18:28 > 0:18:30I was always told in Afghanistan,
0:18:30 > 0:18:33"Never let yourself be captured by the Taliban.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36"Sooner put a bullet in your own head than let that happen."
0:18:38 > 0:18:39RADIO CHATTER
0:18:41 > 0:18:43I never had to face that choice, thank God,
0:18:43 > 0:18:46but I'll never forget the emotional pressure of going out on patrol.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51Never knowing if the enemy would be hiding in the corn field waiting to
0:18:51 > 0:18:56attack, or if your next footstep was going to detonate a mine, an IED.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10Rob Driscoll, an ex-Royal Marine sergeant, was mentioned
0:19:10 > 0:19:13in dispatches for conspicuous gallantry in Afghanistan.
0:19:15 > 0:19:17He served alongside Sergeant Blackman
0:19:17 > 0:19:20in the hellhole that was Toki.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23I think we knew that where we were going, we were the bait,
0:19:23 > 0:19:25and we were going into the lion's den.
0:19:25 > 0:19:30And we kind of were lured into killing areas, and it really
0:19:30 > 0:19:36was just a series of ambushes on each patrol that left the safe base.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39Go!
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Yeah, seen.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43Unfortunately, we were outgunned on several occasions,
0:19:43 > 0:19:47so...it was pretty hairy.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49Cos we had to wait to be shot at.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52That's right, you couldn't shoot till you were shot at.
0:19:52 > 0:19:56No, we'd have to positively ID a threat,
0:19:56 > 0:19:59and then that threat would then have to become a threat to us.
0:19:59 > 0:20:04So, in theory, we could positively ID a Taliban fighter with
0:20:04 > 0:20:09a weapon, but until he's pointed that weapon at us, under those rules
0:20:09 > 0:20:13of engagement, we weren't able to return fire or protect ourselves.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15I recall this myself.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18Everyone was always on full alert on patrol,
0:20:18 > 0:20:20knowing that ambush was likely.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23It was chilling, and doubly chilling
0:20:23 > 0:20:26when you had to wait for the enemy to make the first move.
0:20:26 > 0:20:28But those were the rules, and they were set in stone.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34British troops in Afghanistan are not allowed to fight
0:20:34 > 0:20:39until the Taliban attack them, and that puts them under
0:20:39 > 0:20:41psychological pressure, it's almost like
0:20:41 > 0:20:43fighting with one arm tied behind your back.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46If the soldier feels he's not being treated
0:20:46 > 0:20:48fairly by the rules of engagement, that the
0:20:48 > 0:20:52dice is loaded against him, that can build up a sort of resentment
0:20:52 > 0:20:55and a feeling that this very dangerous task is being made
0:20:55 > 0:20:57more difficult than it should be.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00And you can see that that would lead to frustration,
0:21:00 > 0:21:04a feeling of impotence and a lowering of morale.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09How were you coping with the pressure?
0:21:10 > 0:21:15I'm not sure if coping was the right kind of answer, I think
0:21:15 > 0:21:23as a commander, people were looking up to me, and I had to almost project
0:21:23 > 0:21:28an unnerved appearance, but I was as worried as the young marines were.
0:21:28 > 0:21:32In fact, probably more so, because I'd experienced what the
0:21:32 > 0:21:34Taliban were capable of in previous tours.
0:21:34 > 0:21:40So I think the way we coped was with black humour, which is
0:21:40 > 0:21:45typical of the Royal Marines, and from an outsider's perspective,
0:21:45 > 0:21:49it could almost look as if there's an element of enjoyment.
0:21:49 > 0:21:53And that is a survival technique that you adopt in those situations.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Hostile, threatening environments can lead to a view of the world
0:21:58 > 0:22:02and those close to you that is beyond normal experience.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Gwen Adshead is a specialist in the psychology of murder.
0:22:08 > 0:22:14This has almost more in common with gang violence than it does
0:22:14 > 0:22:17with regular homicide.
0:22:17 > 0:22:22The young men in gangs often talk this way about taking out
0:22:22 > 0:22:25members of opposite gangs, and certainly have a pride
0:22:25 > 0:22:29and a satisfaction in taking out other guys,
0:22:29 > 0:22:33and would have no question of holding back, the rules don't apply.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Knowing that it may be wrong in the eyes of others, but from their
0:22:36 > 0:22:42own perspective, in terms of the code of the gang warfare as it were,
0:22:42 > 0:22:45there's a type of honour to it. Of course, in theory,
0:22:45 > 0:22:49armies fighting other armies are not like gangs,
0:22:49 > 0:22:54but I guess many people would say that those
0:22:54 > 0:22:57classical rules of war, the notion of two armies meeting
0:22:57 > 0:23:00and playing by the rules, has gone out the window a long time ago.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Rob, the day Sergeant Blackman shot the insurgent,
0:23:06 > 0:23:09do you recall the circumstances?
0:23:09 > 0:23:12I remember the day very well.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15We'd been out on patrol, we'd actually been engaged
0:23:15 > 0:23:19and had to essentially withdraw from the area,
0:23:19 > 0:23:22and we were unable to complete our task,
0:23:22 > 0:23:23because it would have meant
0:23:23 > 0:23:26going forward into an area where we
0:23:26 > 0:23:29knew that there were a lot of Taliban.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32So I was in the checkpoint
0:23:32 > 0:23:34when events unfolded,
0:23:34 > 0:23:39and I was relieved when, ultimately,
0:23:39 > 0:23:42the Taliban insurgent died.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45It did mean that we wouldn't have to mobilise
0:23:45 > 0:23:47a medical evacuation helicopter.
0:23:47 > 0:23:51Tactically, they would have done anything to
0:23:51 > 0:23:55incur more injuries on ISAF troops.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57If they could shoot a helicopter down, well,
0:23:57 > 0:24:00we would have handed them the trophy.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08The insurgent that Sergeant Blackman shot had already been
0:24:08 > 0:24:12shot by an Apache helicopter, so he would have been pretty badly hurt.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14Yeah, I saw quite a few people
0:24:14 > 0:24:16that had sustained injuries
0:24:16 > 0:24:18from the Apache helicopters.
0:24:18 > 0:24:20And although I'm not a medical professional,
0:24:20 > 0:24:23I would say very few of them
0:24:23 > 0:24:25would survive their injuries.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27So, Rob, what would you have done?
0:24:27 > 0:24:28In my professional view,
0:24:28 > 0:24:31I wouldn't have approached
0:24:31 > 0:24:33a injured Taliban fighter.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35I would have eliminated
0:24:35 > 0:24:37that threat from a distance.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39So...I think,
0:24:39 > 0:24:41if I'm really, really honest,
0:24:41 > 0:24:43I probably would have done the same.
0:24:46 > 0:24:50DEVENNEY: In that situation, when you see friends being killed, or even
0:24:50 > 0:24:55when you look down on enemy deads, you always think, "That could be me."
0:24:55 > 0:24:59It's human nature, I remember looking at dead Argentines on Mount Harriet,
0:24:59 > 0:25:02thinking, "My Gosh, that's someone's husband or son, or whatever.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05"That could easily have been me tonight."
0:25:05 > 0:25:06So, you take that away with you.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09And I look back on it and think, "I did exactly what
0:25:09 > 0:25:12"I had to do as a professional, young Royal Marine Commando."
0:25:12 > 0:25:15But I also grew up, if you like, in the midst of that conflict.
0:25:17 > 0:25:19But let me ask you, Dave, I know you're a chaplain
0:25:19 > 0:25:21but can you say, hand on heart,
0:25:21 > 0:25:24that you might not have done exactly the same as Blackman?
0:25:24 > 0:25:28No, I couldn't say hand-on-heart that I-I wouldn't have done the same thing.
0:25:28 > 0:25:29I think, in that situation,
0:25:29 > 0:25:33and I have to say I don't know all the details but...
0:25:33 > 0:25:35hypothetically, being in a fire fight,
0:25:35 > 0:25:39there was a potentially mortally- wounded
0:25:39 > 0:25:46Afghan fighter, lying there, I would have patrolled toward him...
0:25:46 > 0:25:48you know, and probably...
0:25:48 > 0:25:49from a safe distance...
0:25:50 > 0:25:53..fired some shots into him. Because...
0:25:54 > 0:25:57..these guys will quite happily often just die, pull a grenade...
0:25:57 > 0:26:01or be lying on a grenade. You turn him over, you get hit.
0:26:01 > 0:26:03Or, as you approach,
0:26:03 > 0:26:08pull a grenade and you've lost the guys in your section.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11And, I think, as a senior NCO,
0:26:11 > 0:26:16tasked with the care of my team, I would, in all probability,
0:26:16 > 0:26:21for the safety of my guys, would have shot into his body
0:26:21 > 0:26:25till I was convinced the guy was no longer a threat.
0:26:25 > 0:26:27MACHINE-GUN FIRE
0:26:28 > 0:26:32I'm not a combatant, of course, I shoot with a camera, not a gun.
0:26:32 > 0:26:35But after spending time in Toki, always under threat of attack
0:26:35 > 0:26:39and the fear of capture, even I found my mind was bending.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42Hardening to the kill-or-be-killed environment.
0:26:45 > 0:26:49We had been dehumanised so much
0:26:49 > 0:26:53because of the barbaric nature of the Taliban.
0:26:53 > 0:26:57I mean, these guys weren't there that would shoot you and then, you know,
0:26:57 > 0:27:01give you a noble burial.
0:27:01 > 0:27:03They would hang you up in a tree and crucify you
0:27:03 > 0:27:06and cut off your testicles.
0:27:06 > 0:27:08Put them in your mouth.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10That's the nature of the people we were dealing with.
0:27:12 > 0:27:17How do you deal with an enemy like that?
0:27:17 > 0:27:20You know, they saw our laws and...
0:27:21 > 0:27:24..our kind of behaviour as weakness.
0:27:24 > 0:27:28Do we walk around being the weak security force
0:27:28 > 0:27:33or do we have to project an air of Taliban masculinity?
0:27:33 > 0:27:38It's a huge adaptation that every single Marine or every single
0:27:38 > 0:27:42combat soldier that has dealt with the Taliban will have had to
0:27:42 > 0:27:45go through, and I think, you know, we had to...
0:27:46 > 0:27:47..we had to almost...
0:27:49 > 0:27:54..equalise their brutality within the laws imposed on us.
0:27:54 > 0:27:56Erm, which is very hard.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05The Taliban have no rules at all and sometimes their behaviour
0:28:05 > 0:28:07is quite appalling, to our mind.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10Indeed, there is no moral equivalence, I believe,
0:28:10 > 0:28:12between one of our soldiers, a Marine or soldier,
0:28:12 > 0:28:14who has joined up to protect his nation,
0:28:14 > 0:28:18has gone through proper training, has been taught how to behave and things,
0:28:18 > 0:28:21and a terrorist, who, actually, their aim is,
0:28:21 > 0:28:23their stated aim, actually, is to kill innocent
0:28:23 > 0:28:26civilians because they want to draw attention to their cause.
0:28:26 > 0:28:28So, there's no moral equivalence there.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34The kind of pressures that are on these men
0:28:34 > 0:28:37when they are in that situation are very, very hard to imagine
0:28:37 > 0:28:39for those who haven't been in that kind of situation.
0:28:39 > 0:28:41And when they get to grips with the enemy,
0:28:41 > 0:28:43when they come face-to-face with the enemy...
0:28:43 > 0:28:47an enemy, let's not forget, that has absolutely no scruples,
0:28:47 > 0:28:50that does not play fair, does not play by the rules,
0:28:50 > 0:28:53that is quite happy to cut people up, torture them,
0:28:53 > 0:28:55hang their limbs up from trees.
0:28:55 > 0:28:59Then when our soldiers are faced with these people who have
0:28:59 > 0:29:01killed their own men, then, yes, you can
0:29:01 > 0:29:04hope that they will not behave in the kind of way that
0:29:04 > 0:29:09Sergeant Blackman did, you can train them not to, but you can't guarantee they won't.
0:29:09 > 0:29:13It's the nature of conflict, the nature of war.
0:29:15 > 0:29:18In the early days of the Afghan conflict, when it was,
0:29:18 > 0:29:21relatively speaking, a conventional shooting war, there was,
0:29:21 > 0:29:24I would say, a begrudging respect for the Taliban as fierce
0:29:24 > 0:29:26but courageous warriors.
0:29:26 > 0:29:30But in later years when the Taliban started resorting to brutal
0:29:30 > 0:29:33guerrilla tactics they were increasingly demonised.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39Most of the young men and women who are out there on the battlefield,
0:29:39 > 0:29:42in Afghanistan do not understand that culture.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45And in some respects see these guys...
0:29:45 > 0:29:47these insurgents,
0:29:47 > 0:29:52these Taliban fighters as something less than human especially when...
0:29:52 > 0:29:55they see their friends, their mates,
0:29:55 > 0:30:00their opos being brutally killed and barbarously dealt with.
0:30:00 > 0:30:02Even after death.
0:30:02 > 0:30:04No matter what the British Army or the British Government or
0:30:04 > 0:30:06the British population thinks of the Taliban,
0:30:06 > 0:30:09the Taliban and the various factions fighting within
0:30:09 > 0:30:13the Taliban do not see themselves as murdering terrorists.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16That's not how they see themselves. How they see themselves?
0:30:16 > 0:30:19They have all kinds of rationales for what they're doing.
0:30:21 > 0:30:25But the overall justification for the methods they use -
0:30:25 > 0:30:27they are the weaker side.
0:30:27 > 0:30:29Um, they are the weaker side therefore
0:30:29 > 0:30:32they are obliged to use whatever methods can get them results.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39The thing is - once one side starts breaking the rules there's
0:30:39 > 0:30:42always the danger that the other side will too.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45This has happened throughout the history of warfare.
0:30:45 > 0:30:48And is always accelerated if there is an obvious cultural disconnect
0:30:48 > 0:30:49between foes.
0:30:51 > 0:30:56The Afghan people are perceived as being extremely so different
0:30:56 > 0:30:58from your, sort of, British soldier,
0:30:58 > 0:31:01and the culture is so different that it makes it very easy to assume,
0:31:01 > 0:31:04"Well, maybe they don't really feel as much?
0:31:04 > 0:31:07"Maybe they all are terrorists?
0:31:07 > 0:31:10Their lives aren't worth as much
0:31:10 > 0:31:12as the British lives.
0:31:12 > 0:31:15So, you treat the enemy as though they are...
0:31:15 > 0:31:17lesser human or maybe not even human at all.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20They are just animals to be hunted, they are fair game.
0:31:20 > 0:31:24It's an attempt to ignore the fact that, of course, the person
0:31:24 > 0:31:28that you are killing, the person you are mutilating is, you know,
0:31:28 > 0:31:30flesh and blood like you, has a wife, has children
0:31:30 > 0:31:35the same age as your children, has an aged grandmother or whatever.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39So, dehumanising them tries to alleviate that guilt.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42Yes, the Japanese is very funny people.
0:31:42 > 0:31:47You might not call them human beings. They are more like animals.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50The better estimation of them is more like field rats.
0:31:50 > 0:31:54Dehumanisation is so much easier to do if the enemy
0:31:54 > 0:31:58is of a different culture, different religion, different ethnicity.
0:31:58 > 0:32:03And we saw this, of course, in the Second World War, very strongly.
0:32:03 > 0:32:08British and American soldiers were much more atrocity-prone
0:32:08 > 0:32:12in the War in the Pacific than they were in Europe, for example.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19That war was a war where the Japanese culture was
0:32:19 > 0:32:24so alien to these young guys coming out of America.
0:32:24 > 0:32:28They couldn't see them as humans, basically.
0:32:28 > 0:32:30And especially because there was many, many instances where the
0:32:30 > 0:32:34Japanese themselves were quite barbaric towards the US Marine Corps
0:32:34 > 0:32:35and the soldiers on the ground.
0:32:35 > 0:32:38And so it seems that that war became...
0:32:38 > 0:32:40Everything was racked up a ratchet or two
0:32:40 > 0:32:44and it wasn't a case of just bringing these guys to the
0:32:44 > 0:32:47negotiating table, they were just quite content to annihilate them.
0:32:50 > 0:32:54There are lots of examples of prisoners of war being killed
0:32:54 > 0:32:57after they've surrendered, in both World Wars.
0:32:57 > 0:33:02Ian Fraser, an officer in the Scots Guards wrote home to his mother
0:33:02 > 0:33:04in May 1945
0:33:04 > 0:33:07to say to her, "Don't imagine that when German troops,
0:33:07 > 0:33:11"who have been trying to kill us, put their hands up and say,
0:33:11 > 0:33:15" 'We surrender' that we accept their apology.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19"We make a point of dispatching them quickly
0:33:19 > 0:33:21"because these are the conventions of war,
0:33:21 > 0:33:24"they would do exactly the same to us.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26"And it's unfair of civilians to expect us
0:33:26 > 0:33:28"to behave in a different way."
0:33:30 > 0:33:33He says to his mother - "You probably won't understand this,
0:33:33 > 0:33:37"but my father, I think, will because he fought at Gallipoli
0:33:37 > 0:33:41"and he has direct experience of combat with the Turks
0:33:41 > 0:33:44"and he will understand that the rules of war are
0:33:44 > 0:33:49"so different to what we as civilised civilians are willing to accept."
0:33:56 > 0:33:59The reality is, once you get involved in heavy fighting, things change.
0:33:59 > 0:34:03ANNOUNCER: A city is literally being wiped out before your eyes.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06Explosions and fires are sucking the oxygen from the air.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08Nothing can live in this inferno.
0:34:09 > 0:34:14Who would have thought in 1939 that we would firebomb major cities
0:34:14 > 0:34:18with the aim of immolating children, women...
0:34:18 > 0:34:22all of these things? It would have been inconceivable, inconceivable,
0:34:22 > 0:34:25but as you fight things change.
0:34:25 > 0:34:29That's what's so horrible about war, that's why it's much better
0:34:29 > 0:34:30if you don't end up in wars
0:34:30 > 0:34:33and, yes, you need rules, and there are rules and it's quite clear
0:34:33 > 0:34:34if you've broken them...
0:34:34 > 0:34:37and there's no doubt that this Marine did break the rules
0:34:37 > 0:34:41but I think you have to take all those other factors into account.
0:34:41 > 0:34:42GUNSHOT
0:34:42 > 0:34:44There, shuffle off this mortal coil, you cunt.
0:34:47 > 0:34:51- I think he would do worse. - No, exactly.
0:34:51 > 0:34:53It all came across as very callous, I mean,
0:34:53 > 0:34:56a lot of people have been shocked by the foul-mouthed language,
0:34:56 > 0:34:59the Shakespearean quote and the laughing.
0:34:59 > 0:35:02It did come over as pretty dramatic.
0:35:02 > 0:35:06Yeah, I agree... what he said... it did sound very dramatic and I think
0:35:06 > 0:35:09there is an air of drama that comes with command
0:35:09 > 0:35:14and I think what we witnessed there was a bit of bravado.
0:35:14 > 0:35:17That man had adrenaline coursing through his...
0:35:17 > 0:35:19flowing through his veins, you know.
0:35:19 > 0:35:25He knows that after that threat he's still got a 600 or 700m walk
0:35:25 > 0:35:29back to his CP, which, when me and you sit here and talk about
0:35:29 > 0:35:31walking 600 or 700m...
0:35:31 > 0:35:32it seems nothing,
0:35:32 > 0:35:37600 or 700m in Afghanistan is 600 or 700 potential IED steps.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39This was all running through his mind.
0:35:41 > 0:35:45I think you can deconstruct Blackman's words quite carefully.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48You've got this Shakespearean quote...
0:35:48 > 0:35:50You've got the expletive and then you've got this notion...
0:35:50 > 0:35:54this isn't anything that you wouldn't do to us.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57So, in that, there's a kind of high emotion, the poetry,
0:35:57 > 0:35:58quoting Shakespeare -
0:35:58 > 0:36:02"shuffle off this mortal coil" and then this very base word
0:36:02 > 0:36:06which changes the tone of it entirely and then a kind of...
0:36:06 > 0:36:10moral justification - "I'm not doing anything that you wouldn't do"
0:36:10 > 0:36:11so therefore it's all right.
0:36:11 > 0:36:16So, within that little few words you see some of this confusion
0:36:16 > 0:36:20and these moral clashes and these cultural clashes, the emotion
0:36:20 > 0:36:23versus the reason, the self-justification
0:36:23 > 0:36:27and the vehemence in the expletive, er,
0:36:27 > 0:36:29in those few little words you see the entire
0:36:29 > 0:36:31confusion of the situation captured.
0:36:33 > 0:36:38But was it a moral confusion spurred by hate and a hunger for revenge?
0:36:38 > 0:36:40Or a mental confusion
0:36:40 > 0:36:43brought on by exhaustion and emotional distress?
0:36:44 > 0:36:50You can't train anyone to be relentlessly attacked.
0:36:50 > 0:36:53And if we were to put into a civilian context, you know,
0:36:53 > 0:36:55relentlessly punched in the face...
0:36:55 > 0:36:57and do nothing.
0:36:57 > 0:37:01Which we did do for a long time.
0:37:01 > 0:37:07So, I think, did that one punch on the nose flick something that reacted
0:37:07 > 0:37:08another punch back?
0:37:08 > 0:37:12It's as simple as that. Did he flick into a primeval sense?
0:37:13 > 0:37:17I'm not a psychologist. I can only talk from my experiences
0:37:17 > 0:37:22but I know there were moments out there where I did see the red mist.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25I lost the plot. You know... I erm...
0:37:26 > 0:37:31I know that there were moments out there where I was not fully...
0:37:33 > 0:37:34..sane.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41It's been described as a moment of madness
0:37:41 > 0:37:43and I think that describes it perfectly.
0:37:43 > 0:37:46He can't undo it. I'm sure he'd love to...
0:37:47 > 0:37:52..meet Dr Who, travel back in time and undo that moment.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54I don't doubt it for a second.
0:37:56 > 0:37:59I'm still not sure that it quite should have led us
0:37:59 > 0:38:00to where we are now.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06But, yeah, if we could, absolutely.
0:38:07 > 0:38:09In a millisecond.
0:38:12 > 0:38:14If you had to put a label on it,
0:38:14 > 0:38:17why not call it a moment of madness?
0:38:17 > 0:38:22Because I think that's probably the most digestible phrase.
0:38:22 > 0:38:26I think if you look into depth what a moment of madness is,
0:38:26 > 0:38:30then maybe you can see what was happening with Al.
0:38:31 > 0:38:37We're only human and we actually only undergo a year's worth of training.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40It's an incredibly efficient year's worth of training,
0:38:40 > 0:38:42but they haven't removed our brain
0:38:42 > 0:38:46and inserted a computer which completely obeys orders.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51We're as professional as we can be.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54I think my point is, how do you train for that moment?
0:38:54 > 0:38:56How do you install...
0:38:58 > 0:39:01..this moral compass?
0:39:01 > 0:39:04And as much as that moral compass wants to do the right thing,
0:39:04 > 0:39:06sometimes you're overcome by other emotions
0:39:06 > 0:39:09and there are other bigger considerations.
0:39:12 > 0:39:17When I heard the footage, I wasn't actually shocked.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21These things are happening all the time. In any war, they're happening.
0:39:21 > 0:39:23Other people are doing it.
0:39:23 > 0:39:28The difference here is that Marine A got caught. He got caught on camera.
0:39:28 > 0:39:31It's right that he's punished for that, but I don't think
0:39:31 > 0:39:33we should fool ourselves that this is an isolated case.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35It's happening all the time.
0:39:38 > 0:39:39- ANNOUNCER:- The National.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43Here is Brian Stewart.
0:39:44 > 0:39:45Good evening.
0:39:45 > 0:39:49A Canadian soldier is facing a charge of second-degree murder tonight.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52Captain Robert Semrau is accused of killing
0:39:52 > 0:39:54a presumed insurgent in Afghanistan,
0:39:54 > 0:39:56a man allegedly unarmed at the time.
0:39:56 > 0:40:00On October 18th, Captain Robert Semrau gave this interview
0:40:00 > 0:40:01to a US Army journalist
0:40:01 > 0:40:04about an upcoming operation in Helmand Province.
0:40:04 > 0:40:07We will do some aggressive patrolling,
0:40:07 > 0:40:10some defensive work in trying to root out the Taliban
0:40:10 > 0:40:11and kill and capture them.
0:40:11 > 0:40:16A short time later, he was allegedly involved in an incident there
0:40:16 > 0:40:19that turned him from a mentor into an accused murderer.
0:40:21 > 0:40:25It's uncanny how many similarities there are between Rob Semrau's case
0:40:25 > 0:40:27and Alexander Blackman's.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31Both NATO soldiers who shoot a Taliban insurgent
0:40:31 > 0:40:35allegedly dead or dying after an attack by an Apache helicopter.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38A key difference is that Semrau,
0:40:38 > 0:40:41with some witnesses claiming this to have been a mercy killing,
0:40:41 > 0:40:44was ultimately found not guilty of murder.
0:40:45 > 0:40:48He was dismissed from service, however,
0:40:48 > 0:40:50and is now living free in Ottawa,
0:40:50 > 0:40:52though still imprisoned by his memories.
0:40:54 > 0:40:57You couldn't pay me enough to go back to that place.
0:40:57 > 0:40:59No desire to ever go back.
0:41:00 > 0:41:04It's literally the dark side of the moon with mines.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09'The enemy is very clever. They want you dead.
0:41:09 > 0:41:13'They hate you more than they hate anything in the whole world.'
0:41:13 > 0:41:17They will kill anybody, women and children,
0:41:17 > 0:41:18anyone to get to you.
0:41:18 > 0:41:21Everyone's expendable, as long as they kill you.
0:41:23 > 0:41:27'Nobody is the same person as he was going into that terrible place.'
0:41:32 > 0:41:36On the day in question, Semrau and his unit, after heavy fighting,
0:41:36 > 0:41:38came across a scene of utter devastation
0:41:38 > 0:41:40following an Apache air strike.
0:41:43 > 0:41:47If you haven't seen what an Apache gunship can do to a human being,
0:41:47 > 0:41:49you haven't seen anything.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52It's as though the hand of God comes down from the sky
0:41:52 > 0:41:54and just rips people apart.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58We came across grievously wounded Taliban.
0:41:59 > 0:42:01I looked up in the trees
0:42:01 > 0:42:05and saw what looked like sausage links dangling from the trees
0:42:05 > 0:42:08and my brain said, "Cannot compute, cannot compute."
0:42:08 > 0:42:11I didn't understand what sausage links would be doing in the trees,
0:42:11 > 0:42:15until I realised it was human intestines.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18The Apache gunship had shot this Taliban, I guess,
0:42:18 > 0:42:20out of the tree and ripped him apart.
0:42:20 > 0:42:24His foot was severed, his leg was severed
0:42:24 > 0:42:28and up over his shoulders with just a piece of muscle connecting it.
0:42:29 > 0:42:33Somebody said there was like a dinner plate-sized chunk ripped out
0:42:33 > 0:42:35of his midsection, almost like a shark bite.
0:42:37 > 0:42:40Some said he was alive, some said he was dead.
0:42:40 > 0:42:43But then you were accused of his murder?
0:42:43 > 0:42:47What I was later accused of was second-degree murder
0:42:47 > 0:42:52in that the prosecution believed he was still alive and I shot him
0:42:52 > 0:42:55with the intention of killing him.
0:42:55 > 0:43:00Witnesses attributed to me the words that I couldn't live with myself
0:43:00 > 0:43:03if I left a fellow human being in this condition.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06But how do you treat somebody like that?
0:43:09 > 0:43:13I've realised a few things and it's that war, many times,
0:43:13 > 0:43:16leaves you with a choice between bad and worse.
0:43:16 > 0:43:19There is no good choice, there is no good option.
0:43:20 > 0:43:23In many situations, you're damned if you do
0:43:23 > 0:43:26and you're damned if you don't.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29The way the charges were set up against me,
0:43:29 > 0:43:33if I acted humanely and compassionately
0:43:33 > 0:43:35and I ended this Taliban's life,
0:43:35 > 0:43:39I'm a murderer, according to Canadian law, and I'm damned.
0:43:41 > 0:43:43If we decide to leave him,
0:43:43 > 0:43:46then I'm damned in that situation, because I failed to perform
0:43:46 > 0:43:51a military duty in that I didn't stay put and try and do something.
0:43:52 > 0:43:54So I'm in trouble either way.
0:43:56 > 0:44:00If we stayed and tried to treat him,
0:44:00 > 0:44:04then, in all likelihood, we're going to be surrounded,
0:44:04 > 0:44:08much as I imagine in Blackman's case. The enemy is there...
0:44:09 > 0:44:13..we've managed to chase him away but he is recouping
0:44:13 > 0:44:15and he can come after us again,
0:44:15 > 0:44:18then me and my team are surrounded and killed
0:44:18 > 0:44:21and we're lucky to only be killed.
0:44:23 > 0:44:26So any way you look at the situation, you lose.
0:44:28 > 0:44:30Semrau was acquitted of murder,
0:44:30 > 0:44:34but convicted of disgraceful conduct for shooting an unarmed,
0:44:34 > 0:44:39severely injured Taliban fighter and dismissed from the Canadian Army.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46Alexander Blackman, also dismissed from service,
0:44:46 > 0:44:48was convicted of murder
0:44:48 > 0:44:51and sentenced to ten years without parole.
0:44:51 > 0:44:53The court martial did not accept his story
0:44:53 > 0:44:55that he thought the insurgent was dead.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01When he was young, little, if he was telling a fib,
0:45:01 > 0:45:06his ears would go red and it would slowly go red down his neck
0:45:06 > 0:45:07and across his face.
0:45:09 > 0:45:12His brother could lie for England, but he couldn't.
0:45:12 > 0:45:15So I said to the officer,
0:45:15 > 0:45:18"When Alexander said he shot him
0:45:18 > 0:45:21"but he'd already died, did his ears go red?"
0:45:21 > 0:45:22and he said no.
0:45:22 > 0:45:25So I said, "In that case, he was telling the truth."
0:45:25 > 0:45:26He said, "What do you mean?"
0:45:26 > 0:45:28I said, "He can't tell a lie, his ears go red."
0:45:31 > 0:45:34It's not surprising that Alexander Blackman's family
0:45:34 > 0:45:36are resolutely fighting his corner...
0:45:37 > 0:45:41I had a letter of support sent to the Prime Minister,
0:45:41 > 0:45:43so I just mentioned that...
0:45:43 > 0:45:45..but for the rest of us, the question of what he did
0:45:45 > 0:45:49and the punishment he deserves is far more complicated.
0:45:51 > 0:45:55I think it's so important that we actually maintain a very firm line,
0:45:55 > 0:45:59but when that line is transgressed from time to time,
0:45:59 > 0:46:04then I think we need to have a much more nuanced, sensitive
0:46:04 > 0:46:06and textured approach to the individual
0:46:06 > 0:46:09and the circumstances they've undergone
0:46:09 > 0:46:11to put them into that position where someone who could,
0:46:11 > 0:46:13in every other respect
0:46:13 > 0:46:15and every other compartment and corner of their lives
0:46:15 > 0:46:18is a moral person, a family person,
0:46:18 > 0:46:25a disciplined, highly-valued member of an elite team...
0:46:26 > 0:46:28..and suddenly something changes.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31And just to say "murderer"...
0:46:32 > 0:46:36..in this very ambiguous age of conflict and warfare
0:46:36 > 0:46:38that we live in nowadays,
0:46:38 > 0:46:42I think we need to take a much, much more sensitive approach
0:46:42 > 0:46:45to these individuals, because we demand so much of them.
0:46:45 > 0:46:49We have to share the responsibility as a society.
0:46:49 > 0:46:53Politicians who make the decisions have to share the responsibility,
0:46:53 > 0:46:56but they don't end up in court like Blackman.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59A man who's sitting at a computer in America,
0:46:59 > 0:47:01sending drone bombs into Pakistan,
0:47:01 > 0:47:03killing more people than Blackman did,
0:47:03 > 0:47:04he's not in court.
0:47:05 > 0:47:09Politicians aren't in court, we're not in court.
0:47:09 > 0:47:10Blackman is in court.
0:47:10 > 0:47:13It's hard not to feel that he's a scapegoat.
0:47:17 > 0:47:21Assuming that it's correct that the Taliban commit atrocities,
0:47:21 > 0:47:25isn't that the strongest reason as to why
0:47:25 > 0:47:28we should not go down to that level?
0:47:28 > 0:47:33Isn't that a compelling argument, that we are a strong democracy,
0:47:33 > 0:47:35we observe the rule of law?
0:47:35 > 0:47:39We're much more likely to win the battle for hearts and minds
0:47:39 > 0:47:41if we stand firm
0:47:41 > 0:47:46and observe the basic principles of the laws of war and human rights law.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51If you could imagine, if we had a self-cam on every soldier
0:47:51 > 0:47:54during the Second World War or the First World War,
0:47:54 > 0:47:58we would have tens of thousands of cases,
0:47:58 > 0:47:59tens of thousands.
0:47:59 > 0:48:01That doesn't mean it's right,
0:48:01 > 0:48:05but I think we have to be realistic and pragmatic about it.
0:48:06 > 0:48:10Tomorrow, 10th April, is Alexander Blackman's appeal in the High Court,
0:48:10 > 0:48:13where the Lord Chief Justice will preside,
0:48:13 > 0:48:15but everyone seems to have a view.
0:48:17 > 0:48:21Some judge Alexander Blackman. Some refuse to judge him.
0:48:21 > 0:48:23Some revile him, some revere him.
0:48:23 > 0:48:27There are extremes of opinion and many shades of opinion in between.
0:48:27 > 0:48:31Of course, one person I can't talk to in this tragic story
0:48:31 > 0:48:32is the insurgent himself.
0:48:32 > 0:48:36A ruthless enemy he might have been, but he was also someone's son,
0:48:36 > 0:48:39someone's brother, and maybe someone's father, who knows?
0:48:40 > 0:48:43So let me leave you with this question -
0:48:43 > 0:48:46given what you now know, given what you've seen,
0:48:46 > 0:48:47given what you've heard,
0:48:47 > 0:48:50imagine yourself in Helmand.
0:48:50 > 0:48:53Imagine yourself faced with that injured insurgent
0:48:53 > 0:48:54after bloody battle.
0:48:54 > 0:48:57Imagine yourself a Royal Marine sergeant
0:48:57 > 0:48:59and ask yourself this question...
0:49:00 > 0:49:02"What would I do?"