0:00:02 > 0:00:04RADIO: 'Good morning. This is BBC Radio Wales.
0:00:04 > 0:00:06'Today, some businesses in Crickhowell are trying to use
0:00:06 > 0:00:10'the same loopholes as big, multinational companies.'
0:00:11 > 0:00:12Welcome to Crickhowell.
0:00:12 > 0:00:16A picturesque little town nestled in the Welsh Brecon Beacons.
0:00:18 > 0:00:21It's an unlikely home for the start of a national revolt.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25RADIO: 'Businesses in a Welsh town are trying to use...'
0:00:25 > 0:00:27The local traders are up in arms.
0:00:27 > 0:00:32It really gets up your nose that other people who should be paying
0:00:32 > 0:00:35a vast amount of corporation tax don't pay anything.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38It's just about fair play.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41They are sick of seeing the taxman let so many of their multinational
0:00:41 > 0:00:44rivals get away with tiny tax bills
0:00:44 > 0:00:47whilst forcing them to pay the full whack.
0:00:47 > 0:00:49I don't have an issue with taxation,
0:00:49 > 0:00:51I have an issue with the fact it can be avoided
0:00:51 > 0:00:55if you've got a bigger lawyer and a bigger accountant than I have.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00So, they've decided to tackle the taxman head on.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03They're on a mission to investigate the tax tricks
0:01:03 > 0:01:06of their multinational competitors...
0:01:06 > 0:01:09I'm getting frustrated now. I want to go and find out.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12..and see if they, too, can legally avoid tax.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14So, it's a scam?
0:01:14 > 0:01:16No, it's a trick and it's completely legal.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18How amazing was that?!
0:01:18 > 0:01:20Outrageous!
0:01:20 > 0:01:22The journey will take them to tax havens...
0:01:22 > 0:01:25It used to be known as the street that's shady on both sides
0:01:25 > 0:01:28and I don't think it's cos the sun didn't get here.
0:01:28 > 0:01:29..tax lawyers...
0:01:29 > 0:01:32I mean, taxes, in my opinion, they are a choice.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34And even the taxman himself.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36You may find a business model coming your way
0:01:36 > 0:01:38where you and I get much, much closer.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40LAUGHTER
0:01:40 > 0:01:41But will it split the town?
0:01:41 > 0:01:43If you're not with me, you're against me.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46- I didn't say that.- It's exactly... - I didn't say that.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48I said don't just get in my way.
0:01:48 > 0:01:52Can these small businesses pull off something this big?
0:01:52 > 0:01:54It is a licence to print cash.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Take a bite of that and see how nice that is
0:01:56 > 0:01:59because you know you've paid fair tax.
0:01:59 > 0:02:00And will this be the spark
0:02:00 > 0:02:03that forces the multinationals to pay more tax?
0:02:03 > 0:02:07And, before you know it, you've suddenly got a movement.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21I'm Heydon Prowse. I'm a journalist and a comedian.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24Recently, I've been looking at how multinationals
0:02:24 > 0:02:26avoid paying their fair share of tax
0:02:26 > 0:02:31and I want to try out what I think is quite a funny idea.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34What if a town full of small businesses tries to play
0:02:34 > 0:02:36by the same rules as the big boys?
0:02:36 > 0:02:37Could it ever work?
0:02:37 > 0:02:42Could we take a small town offshore for tax purposes legally
0:02:42 > 0:02:44or is it one rule for the small guys
0:02:44 > 0:02:47and another for the big multinational corporations?
0:02:49 > 0:02:53I'm off to a place that might just be up for having a go.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56- CHANTING:- "Crickhowell says no! Crickhowell says no!"
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Crickhowell is a small town, but it's got a rebellious spirit.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Last year, locals successfully fought
0:03:02 > 0:03:05to keep a supermarket chain off their high street.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Ah, look! Grenfell & Sons.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Not just Grenfell & Sons,
0:03:16 > 0:03:19but Grenfell & Sons, and Granddaughter & Grandson's.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22Ironmongers, Webbs & Sons, another family-run business.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Every single place seems to be different, original, unique.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28No Starbucks. I haven't seen one Cafe Nero
0:03:28 > 0:03:30and I haven't seen one Costa.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33You don't have any chains. You've got no chains, no...
0:03:33 > 0:03:36- Well, we've got Boots. - You've got Boots.- Yeah, yeah.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38- And they're terrible. - Are they?
0:03:38 > 0:03:41- Yes, they wouldn't even put Christmas lights up.- That's...
0:03:41 > 0:03:45All the town, Christmas lights up and they wouldn't do it.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48This high street is a dying breed, isn't it?
0:03:48 > 0:03:50It is a dying breed, yes.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53- How many high streets are there in the UK?- Not many like this.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57It's what makes Crickhowell special.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00Big businesses coming onto this high street would obliterate that
0:04:00 > 0:04:04and it would be really sad and I'm a little bit scared that might happen.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09But in this fight to compete with the big multinationals,
0:04:09 > 0:04:13small businesses feel they have one major disadvantage.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16They are treated very differently by her Majesty's Revenue and Customs.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20If anybody tells you running a business is in this day and age
0:04:20 > 0:04:21is easy, they are lying.
0:04:21 > 0:04:26We don't find it any easier to pay the taxes than the big boys.
0:04:26 > 0:04:30Obviously, if we don't, they will come after us big time.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34We are a small business. When the corporation bill comes in, we panic.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38- Yeah.- Um... You know, and we have to pay by 31st December
0:04:38 > 0:04:39- or we get fined.- Yeah.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42And then you hear these companies who are actually going out there
0:04:42 > 0:04:44and getting away with...
0:04:44 > 0:04:48I don't know what they're paying in taxes and it really does upset us.
0:04:49 > 0:04:50The taxman gives them no option.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54They have to pay every single penny they owe, or else.
0:04:54 > 0:04:58But it would appear that HMRC isn't quite so strict
0:04:58 > 0:05:01with some of the country's biggest companies.
0:05:01 > 0:05:06Amazon paid just £11.9 million in corporation tax last year
0:05:06 > 0:05:10on £5.3 billion of UK sales.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13That's 0.002%,
0:05:13 > 0:05:16which is bad news for the local bookshop.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22Cafe Nero hasn't paid a penny since 2007.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Shame for a local Crickhowell coffee shop
0:05:25 > 0:05:30which paid £130,000 in corporation tax over the past five years.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32Last year, Facebook paid around five grand,
0:05:32 > 0:05:35less than almost every business in town.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38Are you guys coming to the meeting later?
0:05:38 > 0:05:41- We would love to support it actually.- Great! Come down.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44So, will Crickhowell stand up to HMRC
0:05:44 > 0:05:48and beat the multinationals at their own game?
0:05:48 > 0:05:51I've called a meeting in the local town hall to pitch the big idea.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59We just handed out a few flyers
0:05:59 > 0:06:01and we spoke to a few people in the businesses today
0:06:01 > 0:06:05on the high street and it seems there are about 200 or 300 people
0:06:05 > 0:06:06which is great.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08I think I may regret this stupid idea
0:06:08 > 0:06:11when I work out how I'm actually going to pull it off.
0:06:11 > 0:06:13APPLAUSE
0:06:13 > 0:06:15Hello. Hi.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17It's a real pleasure to be here.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20We've been walking up and down the Crickhowell high street all day
0:06:20 > 0:06:22and it's been amazing.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26Some incredible local businesses you have here.
0:06:26 > 0:06:30You've got businesses with three generations of people working in them
0:06:30 > 0:06:32and, more importantly, you have two different representatives
0:06:32 > 0:06:34from two different coffee shops here
0:06:34 > 0:06:36and not a single representative from Starbucks.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40LAUGHTER AND CHEERING
0:06:40 > 0:06:42It's not only that these big corporations are siphoning off
0:06:42 > 0:06:44money into tax havens,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47it's that the savings they are making are allowing them to undercut
0:06:47 > 0:06:51local businesses like yours who do actually have to pay tax.
0:06:51 > 0:06:54Can we do a hands up? Who actually pays tax?
0:06:54 > 0:06:56I pay tax.
0:06:56 > 0:06:58Yes, we all pay tax.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02Keep your hands up if you really enjoy the experience.
0:07:04 > 0:07:06As a whole, small businesses, like ourselves,
0:07:06 > 0:07:10like lots of people here, are the biggest employers in the country
0:07:10 > 0:07:13and we don't get the recognition we deserve.
0:07:13 > 0:07:16And if we all stopped paying taxes, the country would be bankrupt.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19Not just financially bankrupt, but, as it is now with the banks
0:07:19 > 0:07:22and large corporations, morally bankrupt.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26APPLAUSE
0:07:26 > 0:07:30So, what I would like to do with the local businesses of Crickhowell
0:07:30 > 0:07:33is I'd like to work out a way to take you all offshore
0:07:33 > 0:07:35to legally avoid tax
0:07:35 > 0:07:40in the same way that the multinational corporations do.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43I know I don't have the expertise personally and I know
0:07:43 > 0:07:46we don't have the money to pay for very expensive tax lawyers,
0:07:46 > 0:07:49but I vehemently believe, and I'm incredibly,
0:07:49 > 0:07:52perhaps foolhardedly optimistic, that we can do this.
0:07:52 > 0:07:54So, who's with me?
0:07:56 > 0:07:58APPLAUSE
0:07:58 > 0:08:03I appear to have convinced some people that this is a good idea,
0:08:03 > 0:08:05but is it even possible?
0:08:05 > 0:08:08I need to find a core team to investigate.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11We're feeling pretty indignant about the amount of tax
0:08:11 > 0:08:15that we've suddenly found ourselves paying this year.
0:08:15 > 0:08:16Yeah, I would be interested.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19- One of us would be interested. That would be great.- OK. All right.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21I think there is something in it.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24You get a little group of people, they develop the idea, bring it back
0:08:24 > 0:08:26and say, OK, this is what we've come up with.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28- Then tell the rest of the town how to do it.- Yeah.
0:08:28 > 0:08:33If the big companies are allowed to get away with paying what
0:08:33 > 0:08:37they think is a fair share of tax,
0:08:37 > 0:08:40the same rules should apply to me.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42- Are you up for it?- Yes. - Sure?- No, I'm up for it.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44I think it will be a good crack, yes.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47I'm not convinced it's going to work,
0:08:47 > 0:08:51but what I am convinced of is that it will get people's attention.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57So, here's Crickhowell's crack tax squad.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00Jo runs the local meat and fish smokery
0:09:00 > 0:09:03with her ex-banker husband, Jonathan.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06They moved to Crickhowell for the good life.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08For Jo, tax avoidance just isn't cricket.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11We didn't start our business to be really rich.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13We've had a lovely time bringing our children up
0:09:13 > 0:09:17on the side of a mountain. That was our choice.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20So, it's not that one feels sort of chippy about income.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23It's much more about fair play.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28I'm not a financial person at all
0:09:28 > 0:09:31and I'm going to go on a very steep learning curve.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Local coffee shop owner Steve is ex-army and still likes a fight.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40He's frothing about some of his big coffee rivals.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44When you hear these stories of Amazon and Starbucks,
0:09:44 > 0:09:49and all the rest of it, being almost tax neutral, it's irritating.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53It'll be great to see whether there are any chinks in the armour
0:09:53 > 0:09:56that suddenly open up. I think I'll be an asset on this
0:09:56 > 0:09:58because I'm not going to toe the line.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01I mean, I have views and I will express them. They may not be yours.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05Jeff used to be a foreman in the local steelworks.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09Now he runs the outdoor equipment shop with his partner, Jane.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14Well, I'm going to find out exactly how and why and who
0:10:14 > 0:10:19is responsible for this great scam on the British taxpayer
0:10:19 > 0:10:21and citizen really.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24Irena moved here from Russia 15 years ago
0:10:24 > 0:10:28and now runs two successful Crickhowell businesses.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30They call her the local oligarch.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33I think I might be the only optometrist
0:10:33 > 0:10:36and ice-cream parlour owner in the world.
0:10:36 > 0:10:41I will try to be as direct as I can.
0:10:41 > 0:10:46Russians want more direct answers. We want either a yes or a no.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49Every time you see an accountant or a lawyer,
0:10:49 > 0:10:51you get out of the room and you think,
0:10:51 > 0:10:55I still haven't got the answer. Was it a yes or no?
0:10:55 > 0:10:59Irena seems to be up for saving some cash, as long as it's legit.
0:10:59 > 0:11:06If you find a legal way of paying less tax, yeah, it would be great.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13So, they are ready and like all the best adventures,
0:11:13 > 0:11:15this one begins in the pub.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17- Hi.- Hello, everyone.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19- Hello. - This is David Quinton.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22Barrister David Quinton used to advise big corporations
0:11:22 > 0:11:23on how to avoid their tax.
0:11:23 > 0:11:26Can he help little Crickhowell do the same?
0:11:26 > 0:11:29I've actually brought something which I can use
0:11:29 > 0:11:32to demonstrate what an uphill struggle it is.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35This is UK tax legislation.
0:11:35 > 0:11:36Ooh!
0:11:36 > 0:11:39No, no, that's just the start!
0:11:39 > 0:11:40LAUGHTER
0:11:40 > 0:11:42Bedside reading!
0:11:42 > 0:11:4417,000 pages of tax law.
0:11:44 > 0:11:49This could be tricky, but will it put them off?
0:11:49 > 0:11:51- I'm not daunted by this. - Brilliant!- I'll tell you why.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53- In that case... - I'll tell you why...
0:11:53 > 0:11:54LAUGHTER
0:11:54 > 0:11:57Let me tell you why I'm not daunted by it.
0:11:57 > 0:12:00- Because, at the end of the day, legislation is legislation.- Yeah.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03But precedents are set every single day in the courts
0:12:03 > 0:12:05against legislation just as thick as this
0:12:05 > 0:12:07that somebody finds a loophole in.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10All you've got to do is find the loophole.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13You wouldn't have a business if there weren't loopholes in this.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16There wouldn't be tax barristers if there weren't loopholes in this.
0:12:16 > 0:12:17Yes or no?
0:12:17 > 0:12:19Well, er...
0:12:19 > 0:12:25A lot of us would get paid a lot less if there weren't loopholes.
0:12:25 > 0:12:27Exactly. So, that's a positive.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30The little guy, as it were, has a massive uphill struggle.
0:12:30 > 0:12:35Whereas if you're a wealthy, multinational company
0:12:35 > 0:12:40there will be staff at HMRC dedicated to making your life
0:12:40 > 0:12:42as a taxpayer as easy as possible
0:12:42 > 0:12:45and, partly to do with the sheer power of their wealth,
0:12:45 > 0:12:49the government and the revenue have to negotiate with them.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53They don't have to negotiate with you. They can stamp on you.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57Irena seems to have a knack for spotting a short cut.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59Instead of us inventing something,
0:12:59 > 0:13:03can we just look at successful schemes which already exist?
0:13:03 > 0:13:05- What do Vodafone do? What do Starbucks do?- Exactly.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07That's a really good idea.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10Where the tax havens come in is you think, well, OK,
0:13:10 > 0:13:13if such and such a thing happened in the UK,
0:13:13 > 0:13:14that would give me a tax charge.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18So, perhaps I can make that part of it happen in a tax haven
0:13:18 > 0:13:21without any of the rules in here
0:13:21 > 0:13:24that - bring it back on shore - applying.
0:13:26 > 0:13:27So, the key, as we suspected,
0:13:27 > 0:13:32is to move the profits made in Crickhowell to a tax haven.
0:13:32 > 0:13:33But which one?
0:13:34 > 0:13:36- BOTH:- Welcome to the Cayman Islands.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41Tax havens are countries that attract cash by offering tiny,
0:13:41 > 0:13:44or even zero rates, of corporation tax.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48Their slick promos look pretty enticing.
0:13:53 > 0:13:54I quite fancy the Bahamas.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56They are stuffed with money.
0:13:56 > 0:14:02An estimated £14 trillion is stashed in tax havens worldwide.
0:14:03 > 0:14:07But we may have to look for somewhere a little less exotic.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10- PROMO:- 'What is it that makes a secret worth keeping?'
0:14:10 > 0:14:13Let's eliminate the faraway ones to start with
0:14:13 > 0:14:16and just stick with the European ones.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19It would appear the Isle of Man has some low-cost options
0:14:19 > 0:14:23so when you're looking at everything else and the costs incurred...
0:14:23 > 0:14:27It provides a very good quality of life providing you don't mind the weather.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30That's exactly what it says. That's exactly what it says!
0:14:30 > 0:14:32# Jive talkin'
0:14:32 > 0:14:34# You're telling me lies
0:14:34 > 0:14:36# Jive talkin'... #
0:14:37 > 0:14:39And, we're off!
0:14:39 > 0:14:41# Jive talkin'
0:14:41 > 0:14:44# So misunderstood, yeah
0:14:44 > 0:14:45# Jive talkin'... #
0:14:45 > 0:14:47The glamorous Isle of Man.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49It's a speck of land between Ireland and Wales
0:14:49 > 0:14:52with just under 90,000 people on it.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55It's given the world TT motorcycle racing,
0:14:55 > 0:14:56the Bee Gees
0:14:56 > 0:14:59and a massive tax planning industry.
0:15:00 > 0:15:05The Isle of Man has an extraordinary 30,000 registered companies -
0:15:05 > 0:15:07one for every three people.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12But how exactly do multinationals use tax havens like this?
0:15:12 > 0:15:15To find out, we have arranged to meet Cat Turner,
0:15:15 > 0:15:18who used to work in the island's tax advice industry.
0:15:20 > 0:15:23- Where are we constitutionally now, in the Isle of Man?- OK.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25We're not part of the United Kingdom,
0:15:25 > 0:15:29we are not part of Great Britain, but we are one of the British Isles.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31I see some red postboxes, so where does the Queen sit in all of this?
0:15:31 > 0:15:35Ah. The Queen is our head of state, but she is not our Queen.
0:15:35 > 0:15:37It means that when we make our own laws,
0:15:37 > 0:15:39there are a few things that we can do ourselves.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41What is the tax rate?
0:15:41 > 0:15:45So, for corporates, there is zero tax.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50Zero corporation tax in the Isle of Man.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54Back in the UK, our Crickhowell companies pay 20%.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01So, first stop, Douglas - the island's capital -
0:16:01 > 0:16:03to visit the financial district.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09So, this is Athol Street.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13This is the street an awful lot of lawyers and accountants hang out.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16It used to be known as "the street that's shady on both sides",
0:16:16 > 0:16:18and I don't think it's cos the sun didn't get here -
0:16:18 > 0:16:21I think it is because it's where a lot of that sort of planning went on.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23But it's still pretty much the hub
0:16:23 > 0:16:26of financial planning on the Isle of Man.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29Just to ask a question, because you were a gamekeeper,
0:16:29 > 0:16:31- you are now a poacher. - Something like that!
0:16:31 > 0:16:35I worked for 30 years in the finance industry and...
0:16:35 > 0:16:38To my shame, I guess, that was my job,
0:16:38 > 0:16:41to help people create products that would minimise tax.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43So, classic tax avoidance.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46Planning, savings, whatever you want to call it.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49Spent a long time helping rich people get richer.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51Now, Cat is helping us.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53She says the first thing these guys need
0:16:53 > 0:16:56is something called a corporate service provider
0:16:56 > 0:16:58to set up their own offshore company.
0:16:59 > 0:17:01So that's a corporate service provider.
0:17:01 > 0:17:03That's a corporate service provider.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05There are lots of them. What they do
0:17:05 > 0:17:09is talk to people like you, who need some planning and some structuring,
0:17:09 > 0:17:12set up a company, provide you with directors
0:17:12 > 0:17:14if you don't want to be directors yourselves...
0:17:14 > 0:17:17And there is a corporate service provider right here
0:17:17 > 0:17:21that is home to an investment company that owns the majority of shares
0:17:21 > 0:17:25in one of Steve's big coffee rivals - Caffe Nero.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29We're outside the offices of Dixcart,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32who are corporate service providers and, among other things,
0:17:32 > 0:17:35they provide the registered office for Saratoga Limited,
0:17:35 > 0:17:39which is the ultimate parent for the Caffe Nero group.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42Is Caffe Nero listed as a UK company?
0:17:42 > 0:17:44Some of the operating entities for Caffe Nero
0:17:44 > 0:17:47are UK operating entities, but the holding company,
0:17:47 > 0:17:50which owns shares in those underlying companies...
0:17:50 > 0:17:51- Is offshore. - ..is right here.
0:17:51 > 0:17:52Can we get inside there?
0:17:52 > 0:17:55Cos I want to find out how we do this.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58- I'm getting frustrated, now. - Let's go.- I want to go and find out.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00I'll order everyone some coffee. What does everyone want?
0:18:00 > 0:18:02LAUGHTER
0:18:02 > 0:18:04- Oh, hi.- All right?- How's it going?
0:18:04 > 0:18:05We were wanting some coffees,
0:18:05 > 0:18:07some flat whites and some cappuccinos,
0:18:07 > 0:18:09maybe a few skinny lattes.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Is there anyone from Caffe Nero here at all?
0:18:12 > 0:18:13INDISTINCT
0:18:13 > 0:18:15No-one from Caffe Nero?
0:18:15 > 0:18:18I heard we can get some coffee here and take it back, tax-free.
0:18:18 > 0:18:21Steve, do you want to give us some advice on how to do a better coffee?
0:18:21 > 0:18:24Just make sure you don't roast the coffee too high, OK?
0:18:24 > 0:18:26Because you kill the top note.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28Thanks a lot. Cheers.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33Caffe Nero say that they don't use tax havens like the Isle of Man
0:18:33 > 0:18:36to reduce their UK corporation tax,
0:18:36 > 0:18:38but what is clear is that a company here
0:18:38 > 0:18:42can be little more than a doorbell and a mailbox.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45That is exactly what Crickhowell needs.
0:18:45 > 0:18:47But is it possible?
0:18:47 > 0:18:50'Time to make a few calls.'
0:18:50 > 0:18:52We'd like to set up an offshore holding company
0:18:52 > 0:18:55in order so that we can, essentially,
0:18:55 > 0:18:59channel some of our earnings to the Isle of Man.
0:18:59 > 0:19:01We are located in South Wales.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04There are loads of corporate service providers on the island,
0:19:04 > 0:19:07but you have got to know what to ask.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10- I love the phone cover. - (Try to sound rich!)
0:19:10 > 0:19:12- HE SNORTS WITH LAUGHTER - Posh accent, Jo.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14Put on a posh accent.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16Oh, hello. My name is Jo Carthew.
0:19:16 > 0:19:21I'm calling on behalf of a group of companies from South Wales.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23At the moment, we have got, um,
0:19:23 > 0:19:26four very successful independent companies
0:19:26 > 0:19:31who are sort of keen to move forward with this.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34So £390 to set it up.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37And then what you are saying is an annual fee structure.
0:19:37 > 0:19:38I thought it would be more than that.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41Well, I look forward to getting your e-mail.
0:19:41 > 0:19:44Thank you. OK, bye-bye.
0:19:44 > 0:19:45You were so nice, he wanted to help you.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48- That was lovely.- You were so nice, he wanted to help you.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52- Absolutely red-hot! Well done, kid! - He'll be googling you now, as well!
0:19:52 > 0:19:54APPLAUSE
0:19:55 > 0:19:58Jo has got us an appointment for this afternoon.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00Steve and Irina head off to do the deal...
0:20:00 > 0:20:02# Somewhere
0:20:02 > 0:20:05# Beyond the sea... #
0:20:06 > 0:20:10..and return with Crickhowell's very own offshore company.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12We are going to set up different share structures
0:20:12 > 0:20:14so if we bring other people in later, brilliant.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18We signed the deal there and then. We've got an Isle of Man company.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25It's the next morning. With their offshore company up and running,
0:20:25 > 0:20:28they're off to find out how to move their profits
0:20:28 > 0:20:32from their Crickhowell businesses into their Isle of Man company.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35But they have got to do it in a way that is acceptable to the taxman.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44Who better to ask for advice than the investigative journalist
0:20:44 > 0:20:47who, in 2012, broke the story
0:20:47 > 0:20:51of how Starbucks was then avoiding UK corporation tax?
0:20:51 > 0:20:52He is Tom Bergin.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57One of the very first things I noticed about Starbucks
0:20:57 > 0:20:59and its experience in the United Kingdom
0:20:59 > 0:21:01was that over the course of around 13 or 14 years,
0:21:01 > 0:21:03it had never declared a profit.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06The structures which big companies use to cut their tax bill
0:21:06 > 0:21:08mean reducing the profits onshore.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10That is counterintuitive, because obviously,
0:21:10 > 0:21:13companies are supposed to be in business to make profit.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17But the situation one ends up in is one whereby the company
0:21:17 > 0:21:20looks like it's not profitable, even though it actually is,
0:21:20 > 0:21:22in truth, generating a lot of money.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26Could you give us an example of what someone has done that might fit,
0:21:26 > 0:21:30or that we might be able to slot our concept in with?
0:21:30 > 0:21:33A really common way is through the use of what is called
0:21:33 > 0:21:34intellectual property.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Now, intellectual property can be just about anything.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39It can be the use of a brand name,
0:21:39 > 0:21:43but it can also be something as simple as...how you flip a burger.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46The way in which you move in a coffee store.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49So, in the case of Starbucks, it had to pay 6% of its turnover
0:21:49 > 0:21:53to an affiliate just for the right of using the Starbucks brand.
0:21:53 > 0:21:57- So, Starbucks was paying itself to use its own brand.- Yes.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59And the great thing about intellectual property
0:21:59 > 0:22:01is that it's really hard to price.
0:22:01 > 0:22:03It's very difficult for a tax authority,
0:22:03 > 0:22:06because they'll say, "Oh, how do you justify that?"
0:22:06 > 0:22:09They say, "Well, we think it's a reasonable price. Prove it's not."
0:22:09 > 0:22:12So we see this with respect to tech companies.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15Around half of Google's profits go to Bermuda.
0:22:15 > 0:22:19Now, Google doesn't have any staff in Bermuda,
0:22:19 > 0:22:22let alone any programmers, so it is quite clear -
0:22:22 > 0:22:26and Google is open about this - the code is not created in Bermuda.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28- But the profit all ends up there. - Yeah.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30That's because the intellectual property
0:22:30 > 0:22:33was moved from the United States, where it was created,
0:22:33 > 0:22:35and other jurisdictions, into Bermuda.
0:22:35 > 0:22:40Maybe we could...we could produce
0:22:40 > 0:22:45- a "Visit Crickhowell" intellectual property...- Brand.- Brand.- Yeah.
0:22:45 > 0:22:50- So you unify the whole village under one brand.- Yes.
0:22:50 > 0:22:51But the whole point is that
0:22:51 > 0:22:54our village is made up of lots and lots of small independents.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58That's what we are trying to market. But they are all from Crickhowell.
0:22:58 > 0:23:02So you have, like, an umbrella company that holds the...
0:23:02 > 0:23:03The marketing...
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Intellectual property of the shopping Crickhowell.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10And then possibly move the intellectual property around,
0:23:10 > 0:23:12because that is the easiest thing for us to do.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15For two reasons - one, because we have such diverse businesses,
0:23:15 > 0:23:18and two, it is a big grey area, cos as you've said,
0:23:18 > 0:23:21when you have your discussions with the taxman,
0:23:21 > 0:23:25it's very difficult for them to challenge reasonable decisions.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27Have we got a board? Oh, let's take this.
0:23:27 > 0:23:31Tom has got more to tell us, but first, a brainstorm.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33What is special about Crickhowell?
0:23:33 > 0:23:36What could be its unique intellectual property?
0:23:36 > 0:23:41Anything goes - no such thing as a bad idea. So, Irina.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43Branding, we like branding.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45OK. Jo?
0:23:45 > 0:23:48Is this, like, word association? You just say anything?
0:23:48 > 0:23:52Anything that you think is connected to IP.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54- Local.- Local.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58- Orange.- Sorry?- Orange.- Orange?
0:23:58 > 0:24:01Anything goes, remember. It's a brainstorm.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05- It's a brainstorm. - What? We might patent a colour.
0:24:05 > 0:24:07I think we should think about the things
0:24:07 > 0:24:09that do specifically relate to your town, you know?
0:24:09 > 0:24:13- Family.- But you need a line that the visitor
0:24:13 > 0:24:15- can associate themselves with.- Yeah.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18It's a bit like, "Skegness, it's bracing."
0:24:18 > 0:24:20How long have they had that?
0:24:20 > 0:24:22We could say, "No tax, thanks."
0:24:22 > 0:24:24- It's about fair tax. - It's about fair tax.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27If you're not paying the taxes, we are not paying the taxes.
0:24:27 > 0:24:29- Fair Tax Town! - Fair Tax Town. Fair Tax Town.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33- Fair Tax Town is brilliant. It is brilliant.- It gives you...
0:24:33 > 0:24:37It gives you information and it also asks the question,
0:24:37 > 0:24:39- "What is this Fair Tax business?" - Yeah.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41Then people will ask and say, "What are you trying to do?"
0:24:47 > 0:24:49Two days in and suddenly,
0:24:49 > 0:24:52the team is talking like this could actually work.
0:24:52 > 0:24:56Cheers. Well done, well done. Really good, well done.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59Say, for instance, you're saving yourself 40 grand a year in tax,
0:24:59 > 0:25:05you should be coughing up, say, 20% of that
0:25:05 > 0:25:07into some sort of community fund.
0:25:07 > 0:25:09You could, of course, pass it to the consumers
0:25:09 > 0:25:12so you could actually compete on a better level.
0:25:14 > 0:25:16'Tom joins us for a drink and it is soon clear
0:25:16 > 0:25:19'that it's a little bit more complicated than we had hoped.'
0:25:21 > 0:25:25One of the problems that you have if you just set up a company
0:25:25 > 0:25:27in a tax haven and try and have it
0:25:27 > 0:25:31license intellectual property to an onshore company
0:25:31 > 0:25:34is that you might have additional taxes to pay, in that case.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36I mean, specifically, withholding taxes.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41What Tom is saying is that the Government has got wise
0:25:41 > 0:25:44and imposed a special tax on payments to a tax haven
0:25:44 > 0:25:46for intellectual property.
0:25:46 > 0:25:48It's called withholding tax.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51At 25%, it is 5% more
0:25:51 > 0:25:54than corporation tax.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57So, you'd think the whole scheme would be pointless.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00But you would be wrong. Of course, there is a loophole here, too.
0:26:00 > 0:26:02So how did the big boys do it?
0:26:02 > 0:26:05The most common way is through the Netherlands, the Dutch sandwich.
0:26:05 > 0:26:09- This is a very common technique. - What?- The Dutch sandwich.
0:26:09 > 0:26:11OK. Tell us more.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15The Dutch sandwich is basically a way in which big companies
0:26:15 > 0:26:17get around attempts the Government's put in place
0:26:17 > 0:26:19to stop them from avoiding tax.
0:26:22 > 0:26:26Next stop, Amsterdam, to see if Crickhowell can get their hands
0:26:26 > 0:26:28on a Dutch sandwich of their own.
0:26:32 > 0:26:35Unlike the British government, Holland doesn't charge companies tax
0:26:35 > 0:26:39on payments to tax havens for intellectual property.
0:26:39 > 0:26:42No withholding tax.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Fantastic...for multinationals.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48To find out whether this can also help Crickhowell,
0:26:48 > 0:26:52we are off to see two guys at the Dutch Financial Times.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58We have been told that you are experts on this strange
0:26:58 > 0:27:00Dutch anomaly in Europe,
0:27:00 > 0:27:02that you were the people to speak to,
0:27:02 > 0:27:04and how the system works.
0:27:04 > 0:27:09If you set up a Dutch company, it's Dutch law,
0:27:09 > 0:27:15there is no withholding tax on interest on loans and royalties.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18You don't have to pay any withholding tax.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20Just for my sake, in simple words,
0:27:20 > 0:27:22we have set up our Isle of Man company,
0:27:22 > 0:27:25- we are going to put the intellectual property into there.- Yes.
0:27:25 > 0:27:29We are then going to start this cycle
0:27:29 > 0:27:36where we set up a licence, sublicence, in the Netherlands...
0:27:36 > 0:27:38- Yeah. - ..in a daughter company...
0:27:38 > 0:27:42- Yes.- ..and then we're going to start the money moving around in a circle.
0:27:42 > 0:27:43- Right.- Yes.- That's it.
0:27:43 > 0:27:46This scheme is amazingly simple.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49The key is to set up a Dutch company,
0:27:49 > 0:27:52sandwiched between the UK and a tax haven.
0:27:52 > 0:27:54That company can get money tax-free
0:27:54 > 0:27:56because there is no withholding tax
0:27:56 > 0:27:59on payments from the UK to Dutch companies,
0:27:59 > 0:28:02and with no withholding tax in the Netherlands,
0:28:02 > 0:28:03they can get that money
0:28:03 > 0:28:06to the Isle of Man tax-free, too.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09- But we would have to have a daughter company here to do that.- Yeah.
0:28:09 > 0:28:13- You need an entity here. - And what does that entity look like?
0:28:13 > 0:28:16Maybe you can see, there, behind the trees?
0:28:16 > 0:28:19- Yes.- You see that building over there?
0:28:19 > 0:28:23There are more than 4,000 companies over there, based there.
0:28:23 > 0:28:24They don't have very much room!
0:28:24 > 0:28:26They don't even really have a presence?
0:28:26 > 0:28:28- They are literally an address? - Yes, yeah.
0:28:28 > 0:28:33- So, it is a scam?- No, it is trick, and it is completely legal.
0:28:33 > 0:28:34So, how many multinational companies
0:28:34 > 0:28:36are doing this in Amsterdam right now?
0:28:36 > 0:28:37What's the scale of it?
0:28:37 > 0:28:42The total number, it is almost 15,000 of these entities
0:28:42 > 0:28:46who are only in the Netherlands for tax reasons.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50This is what the yearly flow is...
0:28:50 > 0:28:52- My God. - ..through the Netherlands.
0:28:52 > 0:28:57It is almost 8,000 billion euros.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00- Is that 8 trillion?- 8 trillion.
0:29:00 > 0:29:038 trillion euros a year is flowing through the Netherlands.
0:29:03 > 0:29:068 trillion in and out.
0:29:06 > 0:29:08I can't believe that!
0:29:08 > 0:29:12I mean, actually, you just wouldn't be doing your shareholders justice
0:29:12 > 0:29:15if you weren't here with a daughter company, would you?
0:29:15 > 0:29:17- You would be stupid! - It is outrageous.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24LAUGHTER
0:29:24 > 0:29:25OK, we are off.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28Excited by the apparent ease of tax avoidance,
0:29:28 > 0:29:29the team want to find out more.
0:29:29 > 0:29:32Forward, troops!
0:29:32 > 0:29:34Two local journalists, Henk and Martin,
0:29:34 > 0:29:38have volunteered take us on a tour of the city's hidden nameplates.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41Hello. Hello.
0:29:41 > 0:29:45We are here and we are at the office of Subway.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48Can we get a little snap with the name plate, while we are here?
0:29:48 > 0:29:51Hang on, let me clean it for you, first. Hang on...
0:29:51 > 0:29:56Every Subway shop in the UK has to pay 8% of all their sales
0:29:56 > 0:29:58in order to use the Subway brand.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01The money comes through this office in Amsterdam.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03Around half of it is then moved onwards
0:30:03 > 0:30:05to the tax haven of Lichtenstein.
0:30:05 > 0:30:07Why don't you ring the bell?
0:30:07 > 0:30:09We're trying to get a Dutch sandwich,
0:30:09 > 0:30:13we were told to come here, we would be able to get one.
0:30:13 > 0:30:14- INTERCOM:- Do you have an appointment?
0:30:16 > 0:30:19And Subway isn't the only one.
0:30:19 > 0:30:20We're at Facebook.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24Facebook's scheme is known as the "Double Irish",
0:30:24 > 0:30:25with the Dutch Sandwich.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27Don't even ask.
0:30:27 > 0:30:29Facebook has a very complicated structure.
0:30:29 > 0:30:32It goes via Luxembourg, Delaware, Ireland,
0:30:32 > 0:30:35and the money ends in the Cayman Islands.
0:30:38 > 0:30:43- This is the fiscal office of U2 and the Rolling Stones.- ALL:- Aaah!
0:30:43 > 0:30:48It's not just multi-nationals using the Netherlands for tax reasons.
0:30:48 > 0:30:50This office collects the royalties
0:30:50 > 0:30:53for much of U2 and the Rolling Stones' back catalogue.
0:30:53 > 0:30:54Good morning!
0:30:54 > 0:30:55Why?
0:30:55 > 0:30:58Because Holland offers generous tax breaks on artistic royalties.
0:30:58 > 0:31:00- INTERCOM:- Hello.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03Hello, I was just passing as I'm just here for the weekend,
0:31:03 > 0:31:05and I just wondered if Bono was in
0:31:05 > 0:31:07to sign a copy of my Joshua Tree album.
0:31:13 > 0:31:14Thank you.
0:31:14 > 0:31:18OK, so, the GDP of the world is 87 trillion.
0:31:18 > 0:31:24- 87?- 87. 10% of the entire GDP of the world is...
0:31:24 > 0:31:27- In Holland.- ..is going through this country right now.
0:31:27 > 0:31:28- Cheers.- Fantastic.
0:31:28 > 0:31:32We have beaten it down to the bare bones,
0:31:32 > 0:31:36whereas, before, it was impossibly complicated and people were
0:31:36 > 0:31:40telling us it's impossible to do this, and it's really difficult.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43But, in fact, it isn't. It isn't that difficult.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46I was trying to make it more complicated than it was.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49- I've hardened my resolve, but softened my view.- Good, that's good.
0:31:49 > 0:31:51And the way it's hardened my resolve is, actually,
0:31:51 > 0:31:54you know, I genuinely want to take this a step further now
0:31:54 > 0:31:56- and really see, OK... - Yeah, you keep talking about...
0:31:56 > 0:31:59- ..let's put it into practice. - ..expanding it.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01And what would it look like in 12 months' time?
0:32:01 > 0:32:04Jeff's scepticism about the project is melting away,
0:32:04 > 0:32:06and Steve is starting to think big.
0:32:06 > 0:32:09You guys could teach other towns how to do what you've done.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11How do you scale it up? That's right.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14- We could sell them the expertise. - OK, now you're thinking.
0:32:14 > 0:32:19- But they would have to pay a nominal fee for the training.- To us?
0:32:19 > 0:32:24- No, to us.- To us, yeah. - No, you're just making the show,
0:32:24 > 0:32:27- we ARE the show. - Oh, it's you and us now!
0:32:27 > 0:32:30It's very kind of you, but we'll run it from here.
0:32:30 > 0:32:31Damn!
0:32:34 > 0:32:36It's the next day, and we're ready
0:32:36 > 0:32:38to set up our very own Dutch mailbox company.
0:32:40 > 0:32:43- How's it going?- Welcome.
0:32:43 > 0:32:44Welcome to the Netherlands.
0:32:44 > 0:32:45Thank you.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48'Time to meet Dennis and Rolf, two men so proud to be part of
0:32:48 > 0:32:52'Amsterdam's tax avoidance industry that they've even agree to be filmed.
0:32:52 > 0:32:57'But will they help Crickhowell outwit the taxman?'
0:32:57 > 0:32:59Yeah, that's absolutely possible.
0:32:59 > 0:33:03It's nice to see some businessmen, and ladies, of course,
0:33:03 > 0:33:08here in our Amsterdam office to, er, to talk about this tax avoidance,
0:33:08 > 0:33:11because that is what we are talking about.
0:33:11 > 0:33:14How is it possible to pay, in a legal way,
0:33:14 > 0:33:16without the boundaries of the law,
0:33:16 > 0:33:18as less tax as possible?
0:33:18 > 0:33:20So the basics that we discuss today,
0:33:20 > 0:33:23and you had a phone-call already with my colleague, Rolf,
0:33:23 > 0:33:26they are clear and they are sound.
0:33:26 > 0:33:28- Shall we set this company up? - Yeah, OK.- Let's do it.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31- This one...- Yeah. - ..and this one, please.- Yeah.
0:33:31 > 0:33:35'Dutch law says that all companies need an honorary chairman
0:33:35 > 0:33:37'who will come, in person, to Holland each year
0:33:37 > 0:33:39'for the annual general meeting.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42'Seems a good excuse for a regular trip to Amsterdam,
0:33:42 > 0:33:44'so I generously volunteered.'
0:33:44 > 0:33:49It's very similar to what we've done in the Isle of Man, isn't it? Incredibly similar.
0:33:49 > 0:33:51- OK, so, that's done. - Thank you so much.
0:33:51 > 0:33:56- Congratulations.- Thanks very much. - You've got a new company.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59- You're a Dutch taxpayer now. - Yes.- Not too much!
0:33:59 > 0:34:02- We should prepare the first shareholders meeting, actually.- OK.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05You should sit at the head of the table, actually.
0:34:05 > 0:34:06- OK.- Should we change seats then?
0:34:06 > 0:34:09- Let's swap.- Yeah, yeah.
0:34:11 > 0:34:13Well, here we are.
0:34:13 > 0:34:17'Our tax squad has done it. The final piece of the puzzle is in place,
0:34:17 > 0:34:20'and we're all thrilled, apart from Irena,
0:34:20 > 0:34:22'who's beginning to have some doubts.'
0:34:22 > 0:34:26I appreciate it's absolutely legal, everyone is doing it.
0:34:26 > 0:34:28Do you feel like you're just doing your job?
0:34:28 > 0:34:31Do you feel like you are helping people?
0:34:31 > 0:34:34- Do you feel like, er...- The...
0:34:34 > 0:34:37What's your views on the whole system?
0:34:37 > 0:34:41What we are doing, and I am speaking for myself now,
0:34:41 > 0:34:47is really helping people and their businesses
0:34:47 > 0:34:50to be as successful as possible
0:34:50 > 0:34:55by paying less taxes than they normally would.
0:34:55 > 0:35:00What I think is strange is that some people even denounce tax avoidance,
0:35:00 > 0:35:04even before we can even explain how we are providing
0:35:04 > 0:35:08the substance to it, how we are actually creating this structure.
0:35:08 > 0:35:10I mean, taxes, in my opinion, they are a choice,
0:35:10 > 0:35:12an individual choice of every citizen.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15A moral responsibility, in that sense, for me, is like,
0:35:15 > 0:35:17it's make-believe. It's like Santa Claus.
0:35:17 > 0:35:21You have rules which state how much tax you should have to pay
0:35:21 > 0:35:24and the freedom is created by the legislator.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27You should use that freedom.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38The job is done and we are about to head home.
0:35:38 > 0:35:40But first, Hank and Martin take us on a canal trip.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43They want to explain exactly how Amsterdam ended up
0:35:43 > 0:35:46as the tax avoiders' favourite city.
0:35:46 > 0:35:47Amsterdam was the city where
0:35:47 > 0:35:51the first stock exchange in the world was founded,
0:35:51 > 0:35:57and it was a financial centre from the 1600s until now.
0:35:57 > 0:35:59But we've never had a big manufacturing base.
0:35:59 > 0:36:04In Holland, for 30-40 years this century,
0:36:04 > 0:36:07you've led innovation in a number of sectors,
0:36:07 > 0:36:12and if you'd had the moral courage, instead of going for the easy money,
0:36:12 > 0:36:15tax, you'd have developed that innovation economy.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17- You just haven't done it. - It's not these guys' fault!
0:36:17 > 0:36:20They're just the journalists!
0:36:20 > 0:36:23There's a big hole in the argument.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25- You make your choices in life... - Yeah, you're right.
0:36:25 > 0:36:29..the Netherlands has chosen to go down a tax route, because it's easy.
0:36:29 > 0:36:31It's an industry! It's an industry.
0:36:31 > 0:36:34I've got four daughters and I want them to be engineers,
0:36:34 > 0:36:38I want them to be creative, I want them to add value to society.
0:36:38 > 0:36:40None of this adds value to society.
0:36:40 > 0:36:44I'm bloody liberal! I'm not left-wing, for Christ's sake,
0:36:44 > 0:36:46you've turned me into a Communist!
0:36:47 > 0:36:49In three days!
0:36:52 > 0:36:55'Behnaz Akbar is here now with the latest weather forecast.
0:36:55 > 0:36:58- 'How's it looking?- Yeah, shivery is a good way of describing it.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00'It's been a pretty chilly night.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02'We do have another dry, unsettled day to look forward to.
0:37:02 > 0:37:04'So, a chilly start this morning...'
0:37:04 > 0:37:07Back in Crickhowell, it's the weekend.
0:37:07 > 0:37:11The guys have time to reflect on the trip with family and friends,
0:37:11 > 0:37:14and also think about what the next move should be.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20Is it easier to just say, "How many companies don't do this?"
0:37:20 > 0:37:25There are office blocks with one or two employees in,
0:37:25 > 0:37:28where 30 or 40,000 companies are registered.
0:37:29 > 0:37:31- It's just crackers.- It's disgusting.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34The tax lawyer we spoke to at the start of the operation said,
0:37:34 > 0:37:39"Oh, you don't want to do that, it's far too complicated" and everything else.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42But it turned out to be remarkably easy.
0:37:42 > 0:37:48So, basically, all we have to do now is present it to the town.
0:37:48 > 0:37:52If we can get it set up so it's possible for small towns to do it,
0:37:52 > 0:37:55then it just gives us a lot of clout
0:37:55 > 0:37:57in the argument with the powers that be
0:37:57 > 0:38:00that this situation shouldn't exist.
0:38:02 > 0:38:04Irena catches up with her neighbour, Peter,
0:38:04 > 0:38:06who owns the local department store.
0:38:06 > 0:38:08And he's worrying her.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12- But if we all do it...- Mm-hmm. - ..and we all live here...- Mm-hmm.
0:38:12 > 0:38:16..who's going to pay for the roads, for the NHS, for the schools?
0:38:16 > 0:38:19There's going to be no services because nobody is paying for it.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22My family will say, "Pfft, don't want to get involved in that,"
0:38:22 > 0:38:25because, how will that reflect on our customers?
0:38:25 > 0:38:28They'll just think we're crooked, what else are we up to,
0:38:28 > 0:38:30and they won't come in the store.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32And they won't come in to your store,
0:38:32 > 0:38:34the butchers, the bakers or anywhere else.
0:38:34 > 0:38:38No, I agree with you completely. I got up this morning and I thought,
0:38:38 > 0:38:42"Do you know what? It doesn't matter what everyone else does,
0:38:42 > 0:38:46"I've got some moral principles," which, it's just,
0:38:46 > 0:38:51that's the way the world works, and if someone wants to drop litter,
0:38:51 > 0:38:54it's up to them. I'm going not to do it.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59Steve has zero doubts. He's come back fired up,
0:38:59 > 0:39:02and believes the tax scheme could really work.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04He's designing a Fair Tax Town brand,
0:39:04 > 0:39:07which he wants the businesses of Crickhowell to adopt.
0:39:08 > 0:39:14We'd be putting the brand identity and the brand handbook offshore,
0:39:14 > 0:39:18and you pay all your profits to buy that brand handbook.
0:39:18 > 0:39:22He reckons that, with enough support, they could be a threat to the taxman.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25Either the loopholes get closed, or hundreds,
0:39:25 > 0:39:28if not thousands of small businesses could go offshore, too.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30I don't want to avoid paying tax,
0:39:30 > 0:39:33I want to create the principle and prove the principle
0:39:33 > 0:39:38that I will do it and make it work, and then you've got a problem, HMRC.
0:39:42 > 0:39:45As Steve gets more determined, Irena gets more worried.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48She fears Steve wants to put into practice
0:39:48 > 0:39:50the kind of things Starbucks used to do.
0:39:53 > 0:39:57To carry out the threat, Crickhowell would have to join together
0:39:57 > 0:39:59and lower ourselves down to the same level
0:39:59 > 0:40:02as Starbucks and other big companies.
0:40:02 > 0:40:04There won't be any tax paid by anybody
0:40:04 > 0:40:07and there won't be any money left for anything.
0:40:08 > 0:40:12Irena has become convinced that if the scheme really works
0:40:12 > 0:40:14they'll just be seen as a bunch of tax avoiders.
0:40:16 > 0:40:20The three of them get together for a crisis meeting, with Jo on the speakerphone.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23'That's the thing, we don't need to say we're doing it,
0:40:23 > 0:40:25'we just need to show that it is possible.'
0:40:25 > 0:40:27It needs to be a credible threat. And credible.
0:40:27 > 0:40:29'That it's possible and credible.'
0:40:29 > 0:40:34I completely disagree, Jo. I sincerely hope Crickhowell would say no to it,
0:40:34 > 0:40:38and wouldn't be in with the bad boys who don't pay any taxes.
0:40:38 > 0:40:40I think Crickhowell should be above it.
0:40:40 > 0:40:47This entire set-up is in an effort to copy Starbucks, threaten...
0:40:47 > 0:40:50- Exactly, you...- No!- ..you're doing exactly what they're doing!
0:40:50 > 0:40:52We're not doing what Starbucks are doing,
0:40:52 > 0:40:54because we derive no benefit from it.
0:40:54 > 0:41:00What we're doing is, we're copying Starbucks as a, basically, to put pressure on the Government
0:41:00 > 0:41:05to change the system that allows Starbucks to get away with it!
0:41:05 > 0:41:08What I don't want to do is spend an awful lot of time trying to
0:41:08 > 0:41:12persuade people that are vacillating over their engagement.
0:41:12 > 0:41:15If they're not with us, then they move to one side
0:41:15 > 0:41:17and we move forward without them.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19Yeah, if you're not with me, you're against me, is that it?
0:41:19 > 0:41:22- I didn't say that. - That's exactly what you said. - No, I didn't say that.
0:41:22 > 0:41:25I said, "Don't just get in my way." Our threat has to be real,
0:41:25 > 0:41:27you've got to be carrying a big enough stick
0:41:27 > 0:41:30to land the blow you're threatening to land.
0:41:30 > 0:41:32And if we don't go there with that credibility,
0:41:32 > 0:41:34we're going to be dog meat.
0:41:38 > 0:41:41Steve is at home with the family, and he's incredibly worried that
0:41:41 > 0:41:44Irena isn't going to be the only dissenting voice in Crickhowell.
0:41:45 > 0:41:49So you've all got to get everyone in Crickhowell to be behind you,
0:41:49 > 0:41:51to believe in what you're doing,
0:41:51 > 0:41:52to trust you,
0:41:52 > 0:41:55and then I think you'll have a big bunch of followers.
0:41:55 > 0:41:59I'm highly sceptical of whether you'll get that out of Crickhowellians,
0:41:59 > 0:42:02- I think they're... - Maybe you underestimate.
0:42:02 > 0:42:04I think it's full of fragile people.
0:42:05 > 0:42:07But, um... So I'd rather surrender...
0:42:07 > 0:42:08I'm not sure I agree with that.
0:42:08 > 0:42:10No, I know you don't, but I do.
0:42:10 > 0:42:12I love the Fair Tax Town idea.
0:42:12 > 0:42:17But I think you have to widen it to Fair Tax Town where you incorporate lots of other people.
0:42:18 > 0:42:20So I would cast my net wider.
0:42:20 > 0:42:24I am beginning to think, maybe, Steve...
0:42:26 > 0:42:30..is not going to win over any friends if he's being...
0:42:31 > 0:42:34..disparaging about the people in Crickhowell.
0:42:34 > 0:42:36They're not sure whether Steve's the right person to run it,
0:42:36 > 0:42:38because he ruffles lots of feathers.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42Um, but he's certainly very energetic and doesn't give up,
0:42:42 > 0:42:45so in that way he's absolutely the right person.
0:42:45 > 0:42:50But, um, will everyone want to follow? I'm not sure.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55Steve's been persuaded to at least try to win the support
0:42:55 > 0:42:57of Crickhowell's other businesses.
0:42:58 > 0:43:03I will endeavour to explain what we got up to while we were away and what's happened since.
0:43:03 > 0:43:05Irena, unfortunately, can't be here.
0:43:05 > 0:43:07She's got a bit-part in a Bond film.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09LAUGHTER
0:43:12 > 0:43:15Right, OK, well, this is how it works.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18You've sold your intellectual property to the Isle of Man,
0:43:18 > 0:43:21but you can't lease it from there, so you lease it back
0:43:21 > 0:43:24at so much per month, according to what your profits are going to be,
0:43:24 > 0:43:26you lease it back from the company in Holland.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29And, so, you send them money every month,
0:43:29 > 0:43:32and they send the money to the tax haven.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35You can, also, because you've got
0:43:35 > 0:43:39this huge pot of money in your tax haven,
0:43:39 > 0:43:41borrow money from there,
0:43:41 > 0:43:43despite the fact it's yours, but it's not really yours,
0:43:43 > 0:43:45because it belongs to a different company.
0:43:45 > 0:43:48Borrow money from there, and then you can claim tax back
0:43:48 > 0:43:50on the interest you're paying on the loan!
0:43:50 > 0:43:52And pay yourself dividends,
0:43:52 > 0:43:54- and pay yourself dividends. - And pay yourself dividends.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57And you can control the amount of dividends you draw,
0:43:57 > 0:43:58so you only pay a lower rate,
0:43:58 > 0:44:01lower rate of tax on... It's just super.
0:44:01 > 0:44:03It is a licence to print cash.
0:44:03 > 0:44:05And it happens all the time.
0:44:05 > 0:44:08I'm going to hand some of these... You don't...
0:44:08 > 0:44:11Just share them, because we've got more people here than I expect.
0:44:11 > 0:44:12Can you pass those round? Thank you.
0:44:12 > 0:44:13So, for instance,
0:44:13 > 0:44:15we could sell this to another town.
0:44:16 > 0:44:18UMV Crickhowell, do you want to be like us?
0:44:18 > 0:44:21Well, here's the brand handbook, this is how you do it.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24Fair Tax Town, this is the scrutiny, if you like,
0:44:24 > 0:44:27the little magnifying glass on the big companies.
0:44:27 > 0:44:30This is...allows you to say, take off Crickhowell,
0:44:30 > 0:44:33put in Talgarth, put in Brecon, put in whatever.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36But the fair tax piece is in the middle, and this allows you, then,
0:44:36 > 0:44:38to brand it to whatever community wants to carry it.
0:44:38 > 0:44:41And then you build that as a brand identity.
0:44:41 > 0:44:45And, before you know it, you've suddenly got a movement.
0:44:45 > 0:44:48And that movement, I think, will have a real, real traction.
0:44:48 > 0:44:50APPLAUSE
0:44:52 > 0:44:55With most of the businesses now on board,
0:44:55 > 0:45:01Crickhowell unleashes the Fair Tax Town brand on an unsuspecting world.
0:45:01 > 0:45:02Free cake!
0:45:02 > 0:45:04Free cake this way!
0:45:04 > 0:45:06Thank you.
0:45:06 > 0:45:07Yes!
0:45:07 > 0:45:08Yeah, that's good.
0:45:08 > 0:45:10These are the window ones.
0:45:10 > 0:45:12Right, I think we'll be able to pop it up there.
0:45:13 > 0:45:17# Lazing on a sunny afternoon. #
0:45:17 > 0:45:19- Yes!- How you doing, Heydon?
0:45:19 > 0:45:24- Look at that, a miniscule piece of tax.- Whoa!
0:45:24 > 0:45:27Take a bite of that and see how nice that is,
0:45:27 > 0:45:29cos you know you've paid fair tax.
0:45:29 > 0:45:31We've set up some offshore holding companies.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34They even make their own promo video.
0:45:34 > 0:45:36- Does that work?- Very good.
0:45:36 > 0:45:37Recently...
0:45:37 > 0:45:40Yeah, my brain's gone.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43If it's optional for the multinationals,
0:45:43 > 0:45:46then it only fair that it's optional for us small...
0:45:46 > 0:45:48- LAUGHING:- She's making me laugh!
0:45:48 > 0:45:52Could Crickhowell be about to go viral?
0:45:52 > 0:45:53Us smalmm...
0:45:53 > 0:45:54- HE SIGHS - Got the wrong teeth in now.
0:45:54 > 0:45:56We've come together to see
0:45:56 > 0:46:00if we can copy the tax avoidance tricks that the big boys use.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05The big question now is how the taxman will react to our plans.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08There's only one way to find out.
0:46:08 > 0:46:10The team arrives in London
0:46:10 > 0:46:12to meet with Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs.
0:46:12 > 0:46:15With Irena a conscientious objector,
0:46:15 > 0:46:17Emma from the bookshop has taken her place.
0:46:17 > 0:46:20It could be a make-or-break meeting.
0:46:20 > 0:46:21Time to plan how to play it.
0:46:21 > 0:46:25And who better to talk to than an ex top taxman?
0:46:25 > 0:46:27Richard Brooks is now an investigative journalist,
0:46:27 > 0:46:30but he used to work for HMRC.
0:46:30 > 0:46:32He left because he was unhappy
0:46:32 > 0:46:35about the organisation's close relationships with big corporations.
0:46:35 > 0:46:39- We want some tips on what to do when we get in.- Tips.- Tactics.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42- Right.- Tactics, please.- OK.
0:46:42 > 0:46:46Well, if I were you, my approach would be to say
0:46:46 > 0:46:51that I want exactly what the largest businesses in Britain get.
0:46:51 > 0:46:56Maybe the thousand or so largest companies operating in Britain
0:46:56 > 0:47:00will have dedicated customer relationship managers.
0:47:00 > 0:47:02Well, if they're planning any offshore tax scheme,
0:47:02 > 0:47:04they go to their customer relationship manager,
0:47:04 > 0:47:07they talk it over and they see if they can agree...
0:47:07 > 0:47:08They get sort of pre-approval?
0:47:08 > 0:47:11Well, yeah, they will agree on what the right tax treatment is.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14While they can see large businesses doing it,
0:47:14 > 0:47:16they're probably fairly happy.
0:47:16 > 0:47:19You know, they know what's going on, it's under control.
0:47:19 > 0:47:23But if they see people like you trying to get in on the act,
0:47:23 > 0:47:24it's going to alarm them.
0:47:24 > 0:47:26I hope it does!
0:47:26 > 0:47:27THEY LAUGH
0:47:33 > 0:47:35'So here's the plan.
0:47:35 > 0:47:39'The team are going to ask HMRC for the same VIP treatment
0:47:39 > 0:47:41'that they give to big multinationals.
0:47:43 > 0:47:47'The meeting's with the director general of business tax, Jim Harra.
0:47:47 > 0:47:50'He's the National Tax Personality Of The Year.
0:47:50 > 0:47:53'And the buck stops with him.'
0:47:53 > 0:47:57It seems that big businesses are able to come
0:47:57 > 0:48:01and negotiate their tax terms with HMRC.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03So, really, that's why we're here.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05We'd just like some advice, really.
0:48:05 > 0:48:07The multinationals, from our point of view,
0:48:07 > 0:48:11are both a high-value group but also a high-risk group.
0:48:11 > 0:48:14Our approach is to man-mark them,
0:48:14 > 0:48:17so we put quite a lot of resource onto making sure
0:48:17 > 0:48:20we understand what they're doing, what their tax strategy is,
0:48:20 > 0:48:22the details of all their transactions.
0:48:22 > 0:48:26Is man-marking just a different way of saying "have a cosy relationship"?
0:48:26 > 0:48:30- Man-marking system?- I don't agree that we have cosy relationships.
0:48:30 > 0:48:31THEY LAUGH
0:48:31 > 0:48:33- The purpose of...- Just snug.
0:48:33 > 0:48:35No, I don't agree... I don't agree that they're snug.
0:48:35 > 0:48:38The purpose of our relationship managers with large businesses
0:48:38 > 0:48:40is about managing the risk that they pose.
0:48:40 > 0:48:44You regularly sit down with some of the most egregious tax avoiders
0:48:44 > 0:48:47in the country, and you talk about tax competitiveness.
0:48:47 > 0:48:50You regularly do that. We've looked at the minutes on your website.
0:48:50 > 0:48:54It is our job to engage with these people
0:48:54 > 0:48:55and understand what they are doing.
0:48:55 > 0:48:57They are not, from our point of view,
0:48:57 > 0:48:59beyond the pale to engage with.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01We want a level playing field.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04And, at the moment, we don't have a level playing field
0:49:04 > 0:49:07because those sort of conversations are never had with people like us.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09There are about 5 million small businesses,
0:49:09 > 0:49:11there are only about 2,000 large.
0:49:11 > 0:49:15So I do not have the ability to put a named person
0:49:15 > 0:49:17on every small business.
0:49:17 > 0:49:21'It's time to see if Jim will give us the same deal as the big boys.'
0:49:22 > 0:49:25If I could show you a way whereby we play by the same rules
0:49:25 > 0:49:28as the big boys, we put our intellectual property offshore.
0:49:28 > 0:49:30If I can put a system in front of you
0:49:30 > 0:49:33- that meets all of that criteria... - With a lot of businesses.
0:49:33 > 0:49:36..you'd have to judge us fairly, as you are with the others,
0:49:36 > 0:49:38- otherwise you'd end up in the law courts.- Absolutely.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40Great. Brilliant.
0:49:40 > 0:49:42You may find a business model coming your way
0:49:42 > 0:49:45where you and I get much, much closer to each other.
0:49:45 > 0:49:47- LAUGHTER - Ooh!
0:49:47 > 0:49:50Well, that's going to be fascinating... Fascinating to see.
0:49:50 > 0:49:52I'll enjoy a beer with you.
0:49:52 > 0:49:55As I say, I think that's where you'll see that I will
0:49:55 > 0:49:58deploy resources to try and manage that risk on behalf of the public.
0:50:00 > 0:50:04I don't think he'd ever come across small business people ever before.
0:50:04 > 0:50:08He's only ever dealt, you know, in the top echelons.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11The emphasis on the scale of operation came through, I think.
0:50:11 > 0:50:13- Yeah.- "We can't afford to look at you
0:50:13 > 0:50:16"unless you are sufficient scale to cause a problem."
0:50:16 > 0:50:19So we've just got to get out there and get other people signed up
0:50:19 > 0:50:22- and show...- Piles and piles more people, yes.- Yeah.
0:50:22 > 0:50:25Yeah, the most positive outcome I got is he didn't say no.
0:50:25 > 0:50:27- He didn't laugh us out of court.- No.
0:50:27 > 0:50:30So he's left the door open, and I think we should walk in.
0:50:32 > 0:50:35We set up some offshore holding companies.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37And figured out a sneaky trick...
0:50:37 > 0:50:40The viral video has reached hundreds of thousands of people.
0:50:40 > 0:50:42Thanks, Facebook!
0:50:42 > 0:50:46Crickhowell is trending on Facebook, and will be trending soon,
0:50:46 > 0:50:49I'm sure, on twitter. So that's very cool.
0:50:49 > 0:50:51- I don't know what trending is. - THEY LAUGH
0:50:51 > 0:50:54He's got most of the facts. Turn to page three.
0:50:54 > 0:50:56Half a page! Wow!
0:50:56 > 0:50:59And it's even been picked up by the press.
0:51:00 > 0:51:01That's a bad picture, isn't it?
0:51:01 > 0:51:04They don't send their own photographers, the FT!
0:51:04 > 0:51:07- You wondered what your mum was up to.- Yeah.
0:51:07 > 0:51:09Your mother is a revolutionary!
0:51:10 > 0:51:14Little Crickhowell is suddenly in the middle of a media frenzy.
0:51:16 > 0:51:19But there are some sceptical voices out there.
0:51:19 > 0:51:23- RADIO:- 'Let's talk to Richard Murphy, who is director of Tax Research UK,
0:51:23 > 0:51:25'who says this is an irresponsible stunt.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27'What do you think HMRC may do?
0:51:27 > 0:51:30'There are a whole host of weapons the Revenue have got to beat this.
0:51:30 > 0:51:32'So it isn't going to work.
0:51:32 > 0:51:34'And that's really what I'm saying -
0:51:34 > 0:51:38'why do something which is not really going to achieve the goal?'
0:51:40 > 0:51:42If they're really going to take on the taxman
0:51:42 > 0:51:43and put the scheme into action,
0:51:43 > 0:51:47they're going to need some pretty heavyweight backing.
0:51:47 > 0:51:50Steve's got a meeting with one of the country's top tax barristers.
0:51:54 > 0:51:57- Steve.- Jolyon, nice to meet you. It's a pleasure.
0:51:57 > 0:52:00'Jolyon Maugham QC doesn't devise tax schemes,
0:52:00 > 0:52:04'but defends them when HMRC challenges them in court.
0:52:04 > 0:52:08Typically, QCs like Jolyon charge between five and 40 grand a day.
0:52:10 > 0:52:12OK. So, technically, in what we've put together here,
0:52:12 > 0:52:16would that pass the scrutiny of HMRC?
0:52:16 > 0:52:21The structure is very similar, in a simplified form,
0:52:21 > 0:52:26to a lot of the structures that multinationals put in place.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29And, you know, you will have some arguments with the Revenue.
0:52:29 > 0:52:30Of course.
0:52:30 > 0:52:33And I'm not guaranteeing that you'll win those arguments,
0:52:33 > 0:52:36but you've got perfectly sensible, arguable points.
0:52:36 > 0:52:39You've got a perfectly sensible, arguable case
0:52:39 > 0:52:42that you have reduced your tax liability
0:52:42 > 0:52:45in consequence of entering into these transactions.
0:52:45 > 0:52:46I'll put my cards on the table now.
0:52:46 > 0:52:50I didn't for one second expect we'd get this far.
0:52:50 > 0:52:52I mean, we went on this journey of discovery.
0:52:52 > 0:52:56We're now at a place where we clearly have got something
0:52:56 > 0:52:59that is viable, but is going to have some battles to fight.
0:52:59 > 0:53:01What's the next step?
0:53:01 > 0:53:05You, the coffee shop, put in your annual tax return.
0:53:05 > 0:53:09And your tax liability last year might have been 100
0:53:09 > 0:53:11- but, this year, it will be 20.- Yeah.
0:53:11 > 0:53:13That's fine. That will raise a flag.
0:53:13 > 0:53:15It will with my accountant as well!
0:53:15 > 0:53:17It will raise a flag with your accountant as well.
0:53:17 > 0:53:21And HMRC will open an enquiry.
0:53:21 > 0:53:26HMRC cannot and will not allow that return to go unchecked.
0:53:26 > 0:53:29So you then go to the tax tribunal,
0:53:29 > 0:53:32you have a row before specialist tax judges.
0:53:32 > 0:53:34Perfectly possible, even probable
0:53:34 > 0:53:38that you wouldn't be in a tax tribunal inside three or four years.
0:53:38 > 0:53:39Really?
0:53:39 > 0:53:44It's a long, arduous, painful process.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47But I do relentless, I'm comfortable with that.
0:53:47 > 0:53:49- JOLYON CHUCKLES - I'll go the distance.
0:53:49 > 0:53:52- They're going to really hate you. - THEY LAUGH
0:53:52 > 0:53:56- I'm all for it. And they can come on down.- Yeah.
0:53:56 > 0:53:57Yeah, great.
0:54:01 > 0:54:04Well, I'm excited. I'm really pumped up.
0:54:04 > 0:54:06Now I'd like to fight the legal battle,
0:54:06 > 0:54:09and really try and change tax law.
0:54:09 > 0:54:12So you're moving from the theoretical into the very practical.
0:54:12 > 0:54:15And possibly creating transformational change
0:54:15 > 0:54:17in the tax system in Britain.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24Back in Crickhowell, it's the Christmas market.
0:54:24 > 0:54:27And not even the weather can drown Steve's enthusiasm.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31Do you know about Fair Tax Town?
0:54:31 > 0:54:32And there's a surprise.
0:54:32 > 0:54:36Irena's back to join Steve on the campaign trail.
0:54:36 > 0:54:39What we're doing is we're getting 500 towns in Britain...
0:54:39 > 0:54:42We just want the high street not to disappear!
0:54:42 > 0:54:45She's realised that, although they SEEM to be doing the same thing
0:54:45 > 0:54:49as the multinationals, in fact, they are doing it for different reasons.
0:54:49 > 0:54:52- It's not OK...- Yeah! - ..for Facebook to avoid tax.
0:54:52 > 0:54:57'Me and Steve, we've just accepted each other as we are.
0:54:57 > 0:55:00'He's actually much softer than he tries to show.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03'He's very soft, Steve.'
0:55:03 > 0:55:05- So that's the plan.- That's our plan.
0:55:05 > 0:55:08So rather than beating the boys, you're kind of joining them?
0:55:08 > 0:55:10- Well, what we're doing...- No, we're not. We're not joining them.
0:55:10 > 0:55:13- We're never going to avoid tax. - That's the important bit.
0:55:13 > 0:55:15- We are paying tax.- Well...
0:55:15 > 0:55:17It's how all good protests start.
0:55:20 > 0:55:23And the movement is starting to spread to other towns.
0:55:23 > 0:55:25We're Blazing Saddles of Hebden Bridge,
0:55:25 > 0:55:28and we support the Fair Tax Town movement.
0:55:29 > 0:55:33Sowerby Bridge is supporting the Fair Tax Town movement.
0:55:40 > 0:55:43I'm off to Crickhowell one last time.
0:55:43 > 0:55:45It has been an incredible journey.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49This idea might have started as my silly experiment,
0:55:49 > 0:55:53but the Crickhowellians have really turned it into their battle.
0:55:53 > 0:55:55And I've come to understand
0:55:55 > 0:55:58why this battle is so important for Crickhowellians,
0:55:58 > 0:56:00because the multinationals, with their tax advantages,
0:56:00 > 0:56:04are never very far away from high streets like that.
0:56:04 > 0:56:07And they're a dying breed. They are constantly in jeopardy.
0:56:07 > 0:56:10So it is an important fight, not just for high streets like that
0:56:10 > 0:56:11but also for the entire country.
0:56:11 > 0:56:13Because, as they keep saying,
0:56:13 > 0:56:15tax does pay for some quite important things,
0:56:15 > 0:56:17like schools and roads and hospitals.
0:56:17 > 0:56:21And I've got a feeling that these guys aren't going to back down.
0:56:25 > 0:56:27- Hey!- Hey.- Nice to see you. - How are you?
0:56:27 > 0:56:31- Hello! How are you?- Nice to see you.
0:56:31 > 0:56:32Nice to see you.
0:56:32 > 0:56:37'The whole team's got together at Steve's for end-of-year drinks.'
0:56:37 > 0:56:39'We live in a sort of charade economy,
0:56:39 > 0:56:43'whereby ordinary people pay their tax.'
0:56:43 > 0:56:46But big business, that's earning far more than anybody else,
0:56:46 > 0:56:49doesn't pay any. So I'm pleased to be doing something about it.
0:56:49 > 0:56:51Cos it's so grossly unfair.
0:56:52 > 0:56:54'Their big plan for the New Year
0:56:54 > 0:56:58'is to recruit as many more Fair Tax Towns as possible.
0:56:58 > 0:57:02'They want real clout with HMRC and, if nothing changes,
0:57:02 > 0:57:03'the threat's there -
0:57:03 > 0:57:07'the tax scheme will go into action for real.'
0:57:08 > 0:57:14'What I really hope is that this campaign that we started'
0:57:14 > 0:57:16is actually going to make a real difference,
0:57:16 > 0:57:19and that we really might be able to convince
0:57:19 > 0:57:22the Government that they really should change the tax laws,
0:57:22 > 0:57:27and make a more even playing field for high-street businesses.
0:57:27 > 0:57:31Shall we just have a toast for Crickhowell
0:57:31 > 0:57:34and the Fair Tax Town campaign?
0:57:34 > 0:57:36- ALL:- Cheers!
0:57:36 > 0:57:40To misquote Churchill, it is not the beginning of the end.
0:57:41 > 0:57:43It is just the end of the beginning,
0:57:43 > 0:57:48as far as Fair Tax Town, universally spread through Britain, goes.
0:57:49 > 0:57:51- ALL:- Cheers.
0:57:51 > 0:57:52Well done.